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:*The usual approach is that misconduct by the other party is mitigation not exoneration. If every case had to pass on a guilty party/innocent party basis, nothing would ever pass. FoFs are a consensus view and while arbitrators may agree that broadly the FoF is correct it is only in the very clearest cases that there is unanimity on the diffs. [[User:Roger Davies|<span style="color:maroon; font-variant:small-caps">'''Roger Davies'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|'''talk''']]</sup> 08:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
::* The usual approach is that once the case is closed the case is closed. Why should we pay attention to other usual approaches? [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 10:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
*'''Note''': I wrote the following to Roger Davies in private some time prior to the case closing, "I don't particularly mind if I am admonished. What is true and which I openly admit is that I never dropped the matter of proxy editing, although I never pursued any measures actively. I agree that my persistence can be regarded as either a virtue or a vice, particularly when proxy editing is such a grey area. The procedures atarted by Shell Kinney of discussions between arbcom and those suspected of operating proxies have been further elaborated in this case. Those procedures could presumably be delegated to trusted administrators at SPI or AE." That was the view that I expressed when only the admonishment had passed and ''still applies''. That email predated the mix-up on voting on the FoF. I apologize to Roger for any misunderstanding that may have resulted. And yes, I fully agree with the admonishment and with the first half of the findings but not the statement about "ideological opponents". I could equally well have written that message on wiki and have done so now. Indeed most of it I've already said, unless I was expressing myself poorly. So apologies again, Roger. [[User:Mathsci|Mathsci]] ([[User talk:Mathsci|talk]]) 10:55, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
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Revision as of 10:57, 14 May 2012
Change in voting for Finding of Fact on Mathsci
This finding did not pass when the case was closed, oversight of Courcelles or not. If it had been likely to pass, given the evidence provided, I would have insisted that it be rephrased, to remove the statements about personal attacks and ideological stance. The evidence of Ferahgo the Assassin and Captain Occam shows neither a pattern of personal attacks (which diffs?) nor any ideological stance that I supposedly have (which diffs?). My understanding is that the diffs they gathered were a catalogue of the times that I had mentioned either Captain Occam or Ferahgo the Assassin on wikipedia: for example on the AE2011 election page of Jclemens, where I responded to a question of Casliber, and on the workshop page of the abortion arbcom case. It is true that the finding echos what Captain Occam stated on wikipedia on User talk:Ludwigs2 [1][2] and similar statements posted by the pair on external websites. All of these were extreme and unbalanced statements, both on-wiki and off-wiki. The statements on User talk:Ludwigs2 are classic example of personal attacks. Nothing I have written on wikipedia comes even vaguely close to that. Mathsci (talk) 07:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Which words in particular do you now find so objectionable? Roger Davies talk 08:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- I also see that two of the evidence sections were overwritten by mistake when I updated the evidence bit of this FoF. It should read: Ferahgo's request statement, Ferahgo's supplementary request statement, New evidence by Ferahgo (April 27th). I'll fix it later. Roger Davies talk 08:44, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- The words I object to are "whom he perceives as ideological opponents." It would be correct to write, "whom, in his perception, were attempting to game the system through proxy editing." The finding would then be an accurate overall statement, that would not need to be supported by individual diffs. In addition it would take into account the opinions expressed in the three oppose votes. The FoF was put there before arbitrators changed their view on proxy-editing and it would seem reasonable for the finding now to reflect that sea change. I have no objections at all to the first part of the phrase and you can choose some version of the ending which includes the words "proxy-editing" as you see fit. I hope this is agreeable and will help speed matters on. Regards, Mathsci (talk) 09:07, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's an interesting approach, and your grounds for wanting it may well prove persuasive. However, modifying the FOF so radically goes far beyond what we can reasonably do now that the case has closed. I suggest you leave it a day or two (for some of the shellshock to wear off), then request a brief, concise and routine amendment in the usual way. Do include the full current text and full proposed amendment for ease of reference. Roger Davies talk 09:30, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- The words I object to are "whom he perceives as ideological opponents." It would be correct to write, "whom, in his perception, were attempting to game the system through proxy editing." The finding would then be an accurate overall statement, that would not need to be supported by individual diffs. In addition it would take into account the opinions expressed in the three oppose votes. The FoF was put there before arbitrators changed their view on proxy-editing and it would seem reasonable for the finding now to reflect that sea change. I have no objections at all to the first part of the phrase and you can choose some version of the ending which includes the words "proxy-editing" as you see fit. I hope this is agreeable and will help speed matters on. Regards, Mathsci (talk) 09:07, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, this is just a matter of sloppy and misleading phrasing. A previous finding of yours was also modified, because of similar objections by Newyorkbrad. I am slightly wary of requesting an amendment unless there is some assurance that it would not drag on endlessly. Doing it by motion would be quicker, since this really only involves arbitrators (although I am sure 94.196.1.1/16 and 94.197.1.1/16 would have much to say). Doing it yourself would be even quicker. Mathsci (talk) 10:36, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Arbs have a difficult task, but would someone please review this result as it is unreasonable to make a finding against Mathsci without precise diffs that have been highlighted by Arbcom as showing unacceptable behavior under the circumstances. Everyone knows that Mathsci has made pointed comments, but under the circumstances, which of those comments warrant a negative finding? Johnuniq (talk) 07:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- The usual approach is that misconduct by the other party is mitigation not exoneration. If every case had to pass on a guilty party/innocent party basis, nothing would ever pass. FoFs are a consensus view and while arbitrators may agree that broadly the FoF is correct it is only in the very clearest cases that there is unanimity on the diffs. Roger Davies talk 08:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
- Note: I wrote the following to Roger Davies in private some time prior to the case closing, "I don't particularly mind if I am admonished. What is true and which I openly admit is that I never dropped the matter of proxy editing, although I never pursued any measures actively. I agree that my persistence can be regarded as either a virtue or a vice, particularly when proxy editing is such a grey area. The procedures atarted by Shell Kinney of discussions between arbcom and those suspected of operating proxies have been further elaborated in this case. Those procedures could presumably be delegated to trusted administrators at SPI or AE." That was the view that I expressed when only the admonishment had passed and still applies. That email predated the mix-up on voting on the FoF. I apologize to Roger for any misunderstanding that may have resulted. And yes, I fully agree with the admonishment and with the first half of the findings but not the statement about "ideological opponents". I could equally well have written that message on wiki and have done so now. Indeed most of it I've already said, unless I was expressing myself poorly. So apologies again, Roger. Mathsci (talk) 10:55, 14 May 2012 (UTC)