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:::Don't misunderstand: I understand how hard it is to draft something like that - it is potentially deeply embarrassing for the committee if it turns out that there is no real call for a ban except that (as I'm fairly certain is the case) people just don't like my attitude. Sometimes I don't like my attitude either, so I can sympathize, but my attitude such as it is stems from the fact that I have high standards for rational discussion. If I'm going to be banned because I ask for reasoned discussion on pages where people are deeply entrenched in emotional politics (with consequent commotion, because the more rational I try to be the more emotionally strident the others get), then I want to hear that specifically. Or if I'm wrong, and there's another reason, I want to hear that. I'll AGF that maybe they have a good reason that they have not thus far expressed, but I'm asking that they express that reason so we can all see it for what it is. --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 01:19, 25 January 2012 (UTC) |
:::Don't misunderstand: I understand how hard it is to draft something like that - it is potentially deeply embarrassing for the committee if it turns out that there is no real call for a ban except that (as I'm fairly certain is the case) people just don't like my attitude. Sometimes I don't like my attitude either, so I can sympathize, but my attitude such as it is stems from the fact that I have high standards for rational discussion. If I'm going to be banned because I ask for reasoned discussion on pages where people are deeply entrenched in emotional politics (with consequent commotion, because the more rational I try to be the more emotionally strident the others get), then I want to hear that specifically. Or if I'm wrong, and there's another reason, I want to hear that. I'll AGF that maybe they have a good reason that they have not thus far expressed, but I'm asking that they express that reason so we can all see it for what it is. --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 01:19, 25 January 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Dude, I'm trying to communicate with you honestly and openly here. Now you're doing it again - you're suggesting that members of the arbitration committee are hindered in some way by their fear of embarassment over whatever mistake. In the first major interaction I had with you (that I can recall) I told you then "comment on content, not the contributor", and it's still true to this day. Don't ascribe or speculate on personal motives unless you have really solid evidence, otherwise I'm tellin' ya, it's a trap. Pull up on the stick man! BTW, if you want a tough mentor as a substitute for a ban, I will volunteer - though as fair warning, I don't see that as being a long-term commitment, perhaps I'm pessimistic by nature. [[User:Franamax|Franamax]] ([[User talk:Franamax|talk]]) 07:20, 25 January 2012 (UTC) |
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:Well Ludwigs, you suggested people "lay it out like it is", and so I will. Franamax has the issue dead to the rights. The problem people have with you is that you enter a discussion behaving as if you have a monopoly on what is "right" (I would have said "true", but you said elsewhere that you question such a concept). Consequently, you feel that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, and that such disagreement shows a deficiency on their part that you feel compelled to point out and correct. And when people (shockingly!) refuse to see it your way or consider your "corrections" to be personal attacks, you then feel compelled to badger them into thinking your way. If that fails, you move to another forum to try and find "smarter" people to deal with. |
:Well Ludwigs, you suggested people "lay it out like it is", and so I will. Franamax has the issue dead to the rights. The problem people have with you is that you enter a discussion behaving as if you have a monopoly on what is "right" (I would have said "true", but you said elsewhere that you question such a concept). Consequently, you feel that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, and that such disagreement shows a deficiency on their part that you feel compelled to point out and correct. And when people (shockingly!) refuse to see it your way or consider your "corrections" to be personal attacks, you then feel compelled to badger them into thinking your way. If that fails, you move to another forum to try and find "smarter" people to deal with. |
Revision as of 07:20, 25 January 2012
Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
Wikipedia talk:Follow the principle of least astonishment
FYI
Wikipedia talk:Follow the principle of least astonishment#To accept as a Wikipedia guideline or not
This was mentioned in the arbitration and it closed late yesterday, rejecting the proposed wording on the guideline. (I did not participate). It should be on the case pages for the record and reference. I would also suggest that it be "locked" for future navigation. Please move this information elsewhere on these case pages, as appropriate. Thanks. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:09, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Speaking of Muslims, educational value, and offense to beliefs
Funny but educational, I hope [1], even though it's probably not what you expect, except that it follows the ArbCom cultural values of making references to the Daily Show. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Decision
Not that I'm in a rush or anything, but wasn't the proposed decision supposed to be posted last night? What's the schedule at this point? Noformation Talk 20:10, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
- The announcement was that the decision will be posted this evening, which was why the workshop and evidence pages were left unlocked until the last hour of yesterday. I think you are confused because this was a recent change from our initial position about the requests to extend the case by one day after the blackout; the change arose simply because I wasn't available to post the decision until this evening. Regards, AGK [•] 21:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
The Principle of Least Admonishment
AGK, I appreciate the measured way in which you describe my edits of 2.26 pm and 3.06 pm on 10 December, in the context of my conduct overall.
However, I would object that it seems to me to be beyond reasonable dispute that these constitute an isolated incident within a generally good record with regard to the present dispute. As you will be aware from reading my workshop comments, these edits were brought up at ANI on the same day, where, without fuss, I agreed that I would not make any such further edits. I have kept to this and, as far as I have been made aware, I have not engaged in any conduct since then which could reasonably be criticised.
Although admonishment surely measures as "mild" on the scale of sanctions that ArbCom is able to impose, it is, nonetheless, a sanction. It should not be given on a punitive basis, but only where there is a realistic preventative purpose. I do not believe that it is reasonable to imagine that giving me a reminder to "behave with appropriate professionalism" will have any effect on my future conduct and therefore such an admonishment, serving no purpose, is inappropriate in the context of an ArbCom ruling.
--FormerIP (talk) 23:57, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
- Note to Jclemens: I did not alter any encyclopaedic content with these edits. This is a misunderstanding. The edits in question were made on the talkpage. --FormerIP (talk) 00:15, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Take it like an IP.
ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:00, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Take it like an IP.
- I think the qualifier on some occasions makes it clear that, in contrast to some other conduct findings, the behaviour being remarked upon is not part of a serious pattern. AGK [•] 01:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Standard discretionary sanctions
Might I suggest that the second sentence of remedy 8 be cut? The discretionary sanctions page is linked, and preventing even accidental deviations from the standard wording would be nice. NW (Talk) 01:04, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I think you're right, but one of my colleagues has gotten there first with a simpler remedy for discretionary sanctions. Thanks for your views. AGK [•] 01:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Proposed principle 4 – external beliefs
Further to Newyorkbrad's comment [2] on Proposed principle 4, we should be wary of classifying belief systems as "internal" or "external" to Wikipedia. NPOV is basic and non-negotiable. It means that all belief systems and world views – atheism, agnosticism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, whatever – are equally "internal" and "external" to us. None is allowed to dominate to the exclusion of others, but per NPOV, each is reflected, without any bias whatsoever, in proportion to its prevalence in reliable sources.
In this particular case, the proposed wording could also be read to imply that anyone identifying with specific Muslim beliefs would not be "in" Wikipedia even if they were contributing, and would not be part of its community the way an atheist would be. --JN466 01:15, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Proposed principle 4 has not met with support, so it will not be part of our final decision. AGK [•] 01:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Missing word in proposed remedy 1
The sentence beginning "Any editor who disrupts this discussion may be banned from the affected by any uninvolved administrator," is missing a word after "affected". Either "area" or "page" would seem to fit, but as they have different implications I don't want to presume one or the other. Thryduulf (talk) 01:16, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Proposal
This should have gone into the workshop and I'm not sure if you have to procedurally decline, but I just thought of it so I'm mentioning it now. I don't think it is contentious, but please feel free to remove this post if it's pointless (I've never been involved with an Arbcom case so I'm still learning the bureaucracy here).
Something that might want to addressed with a proposal is that article talk pages don't exist as platforms for policy changes. During a lot of this debate there was some acknowledgment that WP:NOT as currently written does not in fact mesh with desires to remove all the images but that the policy should be ignored and/or changed. While this may be the case, these discussions should take place on various policy talk pages and never on article talk pages. Noformation Talk 01:47, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- From my interpretation of the dispute, there was no serious attempt to "make policy" on the talk pages, so I don't think such a remark is required in our decision. AGK [•] 01:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Incorrect diff in Ludwigs2 (conduct)
I suspect the first diff in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Proposed_decision#Ludwigs2_.28conduct.29 is supposed to be http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not&diff=459357060&oldid=459356266 —Kww(talk) 02:30, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
L2 and conduct
I'm confused by this proposed FoF and the related remedies. I don't see anything particularly problematic in any of the seven diffs provided, with the possible exception of the second - my response to Tarc (though that was goaded). They all seem like fairly reasonable comments. If in fact - as Caliber suggests - the problem is that I talked too much, then it would be better to remove the diffs and say that straight out. But that confuses me even more: assuming these are the worst diffs you can find, then my flaw seems to be that I am vociferously reasonable. Don't we want people to stick up for reasonable outcomes and rational discussion?
I'm trained as an academic, and that carries with it two assumptions:
- Complex ideas need complex discussion, and while one can be concise one can't always be brief. Extended discussion is normal for me.
- I have an expectation that others will read, think, and respond fairly and intelligently (within the constraints of their own particular worldview), and that when there is disagreement it's because we carry different assumptions about the issue. This calls for for more discussion to discover the differing assumptions, not less.
In fact, this is how the scholarly world works - people examining an idea in extended detail until they have explored the differing positions - and while I wouldn't expect Wikipedia to be fully up to academic standards, I would expect it to respect their methods, not condemn them.
It would put my mind to rest if someone could explain in clear terms
- what precisely is objectionable in these particular diffs, or
- what behavior in general is being objected to
I simply don't understand what it is you want me to change, or why - I never have, really, except on those occasions where I lose my temper - and unless you clarify that point, you make it impossible for any change to occur. My concern here is that you are responding to the extensively vociferous slander that's been laded on me (in this dispute and elsewhere), and are trying to control the person I have been made out to be rather than the person you are actually faced with. If you want to sanction me for something I'm actually guilty of, I can't see as I'd object to that, but I'd rather not get sanctioned over erroneous misconceptions. --Ludwigs2 03:17, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have to admit that I do agree with Ludwigs here but with a different conclusion. When reading the diffs provided I was surprised as I didn't see anything that really jumped out to me as problematic, insofar that if I were an arbiter and hadn't seen anything else I would certainly not condemn Ludwigs for anything provided. However I do think that many problematic diffs do exist and am under the working assumption that the arbiters are looking at far more than what has been presented. With that said, Ludwigs, I would like you to know that I have an immense amount of respect for you and do not support you being sitebanned, though I do support restrictions for the sake of the project. I also acknowledge that a large part of the problem with your editing style is not so much that each diff might provide an obvious policy violation, but that overall your editing could be construed as TE. Noformation Talk 09:53, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- I was actually hoping for a little guidance from the Arbs on this, NoFo, but thanks. I can't see that my behavior has been all that bad in this dispute. I'm not pushing some kind of a POV (or even doing anything all that extraordinary - I've been arguing a line that's relatively common in the social sciences), and in most places I've been perfectly reasonable about it (more reasonable than the people arguing against me, in fact). Where's the TE? sure, a lot of people have accused me of TE - people started accusing me of TE (and other things) on my fourth post, I think - but the fact that I personally annoy them (which seems to be true) does not make me guilty of TE in and of itself.
- The point is, it isn't particularly fair to talk about sanctioning me if no one can explain what it is I'm being sanctioned for. That would more or less preclude any possibility that I could fix the problem; it would merely be senselessly punitive. The way it looks to me now (pardon the bias in this statement) is that I'm being considered for sanctions because other people refused to be reasonable, which is extremely cockeyed, if true. I'd really like someone to explain how that's not the case so that I can feel better about this process as a whole. --Ludwigs2 12:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
It appears to me that this is essentially just Arbcom participating in the general mobbing. The community uses Ludwigs2 as a convenient scapegoat. He usually gets involved in contentious topics on the unpopular side. He usually has basically a valid point, and therefore it's usually not so easy to argue against him. Add to this his penchant to overstate things initially and some irritating though in no way objectively disruptive minor traits, and it's clear how he got into this function and that he doesn't seem to have much of a chance to get rid of it.
What amazes me is that a generally quite clueful incarnation of Arbcom gives the impression of jumping on the bandwagon without properly checking the facts. Basically they are going to sanction Ludwigs2 for behaviour unrelated to this case because they couldn't find enough in this case but almost everybody agreed it was all his fault. I am not sure that anyone has invested the time to analyse the earlier situations to make sure it is fair to hold them against Ludwigs2 in this case. Apparently to cover up this weakness, they have presented diffs from the Muhammad images debate that are not proof of any disruptive behaviour.
I suspect that it's a case of group thinking. My best bet is that everybody thinks that someone else has verified the facts. Maybe it's even true to the extent that one arbitrator has looked at the facts. Hans Adler 19:25, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hans, that isn't the case, they are looking outside the case to show that just a topic ban for this one subject is appropriate. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:01, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is quite clear to me that Ludwigs' participation in this dispute has been seriously unhelpful. I didn't reach that opinion based on the reception he was given by the other disputants, and indeed I made a deliberate effort to ignore their reaction to all his comments (because I was aware from the requests phase that there was some degree of mobbing of Ludwigs). However, I cannot see any way to resolve this dispute without recognising that Ludwigs' interactions with his peers has, I am sorry to say, been a consistent source of disruption. In short, he is unable to collaborate effectively, and that is a sub-issue we must address in our decision. AGK [•] 01:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- No doubt this is your clear view. It is not shared by me. Neither do I believe it would be the view of many of your colleagues, if they took the trouble to look carefully at this case. Ludwigs will take on ownership, ignorant assertions, poor reasoning, IDHT, and ad hominem. He is wordy and pedantic when he does so, but until someone writes WP:ANNOYING that's not actionable, and he occasionally meets ad hominem with ad hominem. That's it. I urge arbitrators to follow his edits on Talk:Muhammad/images and pay careful attention to the tone and nature of the comments to which he is responding.
- If you don't actually carefully follow Ludwigs' experience on that talk page, if you don't see for yourself the tone and character of the offensive verbal assaults to which he was constantly subjected during that "debate," then I expect you to leave this case with a bad taste in your mouth, and I hope that taste returns the next time you're tempted, due to lack of time, lack of care, laziness or simple prejudice, to blindly join in the mob chant at arbcom. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- And that is not a sleazy, innuendo-cloaked personal attack? Or at least an oil-tanker-level poisoning of the proverbial well? What else besides carelessness, laziness, and "simple" prejudice is the arbcom mob capable of? Just polyphony? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 04:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- If you don't actually carefully follow Ludwigs' experience on that talk page, if you don't see for yourself the tone and character of the offensive verbal assaults to which he was constantly subjected during that "debate," then I expect you to leave this case with a bad taste in your mouth, and I hope that taste returns the next time you're tempted, due to lack of time, lack of care, laziness or simple prejudice, to blindly join in the mob chant at arbcom. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- AGK: again, what's "clear to you" is not helpful, because it's not at all clear to me (and I obviously am the person it needs to be clear to if this is to be meaningful). frankly, whats "clear to me" is entirely different, and if I'm making a mistake it's contingent on you to let me know what that mistake is.
- Maybe try turning it around: tell me what you would have done in the situation I found myself in. See it through my eyes, please - as being confronted with a deeply entrenched (though most probably unwitting) prejudice in an article - and frame it that way. As far as I can see, there simply isn't anything to do other than what I did, except give up and allow the putative prejudice to stand without discussion. Is that what you believe I should have done?
- I would really like you all to tell me what it is you think is wrong with me, that these kinds of sanctions are called for. And please feel free to speak freely; I never object to someone saying what's honestly on their mind (I only get upset at liars). Why don't we all for once lay it out like it is? --Ludwigs2 07:40, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that's really my point. Even though the sections affecting me directly currently look as if they are going to fail, I am still getting constructive feedback from them on my own behaviour. I know what to be more careful about in the future. But I don't know what kind of practical message anyone is supposed to get from the Ludwigs2-related stuff unless it is the following: If you are constantly being mobbed, you must keep a low profile and you are not allowed to resist the mob. That kind of message would only make sense if it were accompanied by a promise that this kind of mobbing behaviour will be rooted out. (Maybe you are actually discussing this in the parallel case? That would make sense, as it's probably the worst form of incivility.) Hans Adler 10:29, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
hatting all this too - let's let the arbs speak for themselves |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Anthonyhcole seems to have retired and un-retired rather quickly... ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 09:17, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
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Still no comment from the arbiters on this. --Ludwigs2 17:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, the committee is apparently not going to respond to this question, so I left a note on Jimbo's talk page asking him to nudge them on it. --Ludwigs2 19:19, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- But AGK is an arbitrator and has responded here. You just don't think that answer is good enough, and want more. If you want my call on the underlying behaviour (which I realize you don't), it's that you have consistently presented yourself as the only rational person in the room, the only one with the clarity to understand everything, including the "unwitting bias" of others. People present their objections to your ideas and you just brush it off as not up to your standard of rationality. This has been a common theme through many many interactions I've observed you in Ludwigs2, and I'm surprised you don't get it. You always seem to explain it in terms of the deficiencies of others. Maybe this wiki is just not ready yet to have the perfect editor around, and we all like to see some humility in others. That's what I think you should consider going forward. Franamax (talk) 21:42, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- AGK said that he did not include a site ban in the original proposal [3], the committee (or some part thereof) wanted it. So he is apparently not speaking for the committee. The committee can draft a response which is in its voice (that would be best), or whatever they'd like to do. but I am requesting transparency on this issue.
- Don't misunderstand: I understand how hard it is to draft something like that - it is potentially deeply embarrassing for the committee if it turns out that there is no real call for a ban except that (as I'm fairly certain is the case) people just don't like my attitude. Sometimes I don't like my attitude either, so I can sympathize, but my attitude such as it is stems from the fact that I have high standards for rational discussion. If I'm going to be banned because I ask for reasoned discussion on pages where people are deeply entrenched in emotional politics (with consequent commotion, because the more rational I try to be the more emotionally strident the others get), then I want to hear that specifically. Or if I'm wrong, and there's another reason, I want to hear that. I'll AGF that maybe they have a good reason that they have not thus far expressed, but I'm asking that they express that reason so we can all see it for what it is. --Ludwigs2 01:19, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Dude, I'm trying to communicate with you honestly and openly here. Now you're doing it again - you're suggesting that members of the arbitration committee are hindered in some way by their fear of embarassment over whatever mistake. In the first major interaction I had with you (that I can recall) I told you then "comment on content, not the contributor", and it's still true to this day. Don't ascribe or speculate on personal motives unless you have really solid evidence, otherwise I'm tellin' ya, it's a trap. Pull up on the stick man! BTW, if you want a tough mentor as a substitute for a ban, I will volunteer - though as fair warning, I don't see that as being a long-term commitment, perhaps I'm pessimistic by nature. Franamax (talk) 07:20, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Well Ludwigs, you suggested people "lay it out like it is", and so I will. Franamax has the issue dead to the rights. The problem people have with you is that you enter a discussion behaving as if you have a monopoly on what is "right" (I would have said "true", but you said elsewhere that you question such a concept). Consequently, you feel that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, and that such disagreement shows a deficiency on their part that you feel compelled to point out and correct. And when people (shockingly!) refuse to see it your way or consider your "corrections" to be personal attacks, you then feel compelled to badger them into thinking your way. If that fails, you move to another forum to try and find "smarter" people to deal with.
- One of your most common traits is to point out how you are a "scholar" or an "intellectual", etc. I have news for you: Nobody cares. You act as if this very assertion means your viewpoints should be given greater weight, or that it alone should show everyone else why they are wrong. From everyone else's point of view, you're basically just waiving your e-penis around bragging how large you are. It doesn't help your arguments and it doesn't move discussions forward. It only tells everyone else that you suffer from delusions of superiority.
- I think you need to be topic banned from this area. Do you need to be site banned? That question, in my mind, is up to you. The fact that you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge your behavioural issues - going so far as to characterize yourself below as one of the least disruptive contributors to the discussion - tells me that as of right now, yes, you do. I think you need to take a long look in the mirror. You've been topic banned from Astrology, you will be topic banned from Muhammad and you've been called out elsewhere. Several editors brought evidence against you in this case, and a majority of arbs seem set on the ban. There is no shortage of people who see a problem. Are we all wrong? No. And if you are capable of accepting that, then I am willing to ask the arbitrators to reconsider support for a site ban. If you are not, then we're pretty much done here.
- If Wikipedia has 20,000 editors, it has 20,000 opinions on what Wikipedia should be. The project will never be exactly what you want it to be and trying to force it is a futile waste of effort. But that is what you do, and that is why you bring so much grief on to yourself. I get that you feel it important to concern yourself with policy and controversial cases. There is nothing wrong with that, except that you need to learn when to accept that your opinion is not the one that will carry the day. My suggestion, if you should evade a site ban, is to step away from the policy pages for a while, find a topic you like, and write an article. There will always be policy discussions to be had. Take some time to put that scholarly intellect to good use. Resolute 23:56, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Resolute, Franamax: allow me to respond of your posts briefly:
- First, I didn't ask for either of your opinion. I asked for the Committee's. I'm not sure why you're confused by that. However…
- You seem to be suggesting that you don't think that you're right and I'm wrong. shall I provide diffs to the contrary? Everyone has an opinion when they enter a situation like this; the purpose of discussion is to change minds or reach compromises between those opinions.
- The problem we faced on this debate (and on other places I've had conversations like this) is not that I entered the discussion thinking I was right, but rather that I entered the discussion raising the possibility that you might be wrong. that's a problem for you because we have different understandings of consensus:
- You and franamax (and others) think of consensus in wikt:hegemonic terms: i.e. consensus refers to the beliefs of the group that has enough influence to achieve their goals (that being your group in this case).
- I think of consensus in terms of proper argumentation and reasoned discourse: i.e. consensus refers to the the outcome of an inclusive deliberation.
- Your sense of consensus and mine are grossly incompatible, and obviously my efforts to use reason to suss out the details of the disagreement are going to fall flat on your ears: you will misinterpret them - as you did - as a political ploy to change the hegemonic power structure rather than as an effort to engage rational discussion. There's nothing I can do about that misinterpretation, and there's nothing I can do about your hegemonic understanding of consensus (since it's doubtful you're aware that that's how you see it, or that there's any other way to see it). All I could really hope for was to bring the issue to a group which would ostensibly have more of a vested interest in rational discourse. But apparently, it wasn't enough of a vested interest…
- The problem we faced on this debate (and on other places I've had conversations like this) is not that I entered the discussion thinking I was right, but rather that I entered the discussion raising the possibility that you might be wrong. that's a problem for you because we have different understandings of consensus:
- I don't care about being right, Resolute - not one bit. I care about thinking things through correctly, and discussing them properly. You think I'm trying to force you to do what I want, when in fact all I want is for you to discuss things like a mature adult, because if we do that, everything else will sort itself out quickly. But that's the one thing you won't do. --Ludwigs2 02:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Wow. Q.E.D. i suppose... Franamax (talk) 02:22, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Suppose what you like; but read what I wrote. if you AGF a little (which would be a first for me on project), you'll understand my perspective better. --Ludwigs2 03:47, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Q.E.D. is right. You continue to push the belief that it is everyone's fault but yours that your arguments aren't getting anywhere. We're not "mature adults". We're not "reading what [you] wrote". We're not assuming good faith. Every time you fail to convince others that you are right, it is always a deficiency in the other person. I can't say that I expected you to respond any other way, actually. Resolute 05:19, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Suppose what you like; but read what I wrote. if you AGF a little (which would be a first for me on project), you'll understand my perspective better. --Ludwigs2 03:47, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Wow. Q.E.D. i suppose... Franamax (talk) 02:22, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't care about being right, Resolute - not one bit. I care about thinking things through correctly, and discussing them properly. You think I'm trying to force you to do what I want, when in fact all I want is for you to discuss things like a mature adult, because if we do that, everything else will sort itself out quickly. But that's the one thing you won't do. --Ludwigs2 02:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Few as euphemism for none
"because few images of Muhammad exist that were created during his life". None were found, just like no Quran dating from Muhammad's lifetime was found either. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 03:56, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed by everybody - now adjusted in the proposal, though other inaccuracies there remain. Johnbod (talk) 16:32, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Corrections
These were discussed already on the Workshop page, but got lost somewhere along the way (I'm not blaming the arbs, that page turned tl;dr very early on). However, I would like to draw attention to two points in particular which I feel strongly should be addressed in the proposed decision:
- As I pointed out when I first saw AGK's summary, there is a factual error. In the "Background to dispute" section, the phrase "few images of Muhammad exist that were created during his life" is completely false. In actuality, there are no images from his lifetime. The earliest images we have were created several hundred years after his death. So a better sentence would be "no images exist" rather than "few images exist".
- I also strongly recommend that a Finding be added which links to the Wikimedia study (if nothing else, it'll make it easier to find later). I see several findings already on the proposed decision page related to the "Principle of least astonishment", but we somehow lost the FoF that explains where that term came from. Especially because the Wikimedia report specifically mentions images of Muhammad, it should probably be acknowledged in this case somewhere. Suggested wording:
- In 2010, the Wikimedia Foundation commissioned a study on controversial content, and in May 2011 passed a Resolution concerning controversial content. The Resolution included discussion of religious content that may be offensive to some viewers, and the study specifically mentioned Muhammad images as an example of controversial content.[4] The WMF resolution urges the community to pay particular attention to curating all kinds of potentially controversial content, including determining whether it has a realistic educational use and applying the principle of least astonishment in categorization and placement.
- That would be relatively neutral, doesn't imply that ArbCom is or is not endorsing it, but simply states the facts. --Elonka 05:24, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Alas, the English Wikipedia community rejected a guideline that was merely stating those facts. I'm guessing that merely stating facts about opinions is seen as endorsing them at least to the extent that they are considered on-topic and somewhat authoritative, otherwise why bother mentioning them? More to the point, there are substantive differences between what the Harrises proposed and what the WMF approved, particularly with respect to religious images (an issue that was debated to death in the /Workshop, I might add). The WMF resolution did not mention images of Muhammad. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 06:48, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is true that "POLA, as articulated by the WMF board", as proposed by Arbcom, is vague and ambiguous because it is unclear the Board did articulate it, other than writing those words. Articulation, generally involves more detail. Nonetheless, several clicks on the resolution, Elonka linked, fails to turn up mention of Muhammad in it, as her "suggested wording" states. The topic is briefly mentioned in the Report (not the resolution), among a list of things, and discussed in a way that suggests they were either not focused on it, or did not understand the issue, particularly with reference to their use of the word "sacred," and it was only mentioned on the way to recommending that a user-image-filter for them be employed. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:17, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Are you assuming good faith? Some Arbitrators even wrote they are merely restating policy about POLA (at 6.2), so it's fair to assume it is sufficiently articulated for them. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 09:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I AGF. Saying something someone says is unclear, says or implies nothing about good or bad faith. Sometimes people mean to be ambiguous; sometimes it's useful and has good reason, but other times they don't want to be ambiguous, and they appreciate others seeking clarification. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:43, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Alanscottwalker, thanks for pointing that out. I have reworked the wording slightly, and added a link to the section referring to the Muhammad images, to make it more clear. --Elonka 09:45, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. But linking them in that way could be misleading, in that one small aspect of the report may have had little or no bearing in the resolution. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:00, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- I do think the study needs to be at least mentioned, since it does refer to this exact topic. ASW, what wording would you suggest instead? --Elonka 18:53, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hm, ASW, I wonder if that's taken . . . At any rate, perhaps: "The community may find benefit in reviewing the Harris Report." Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:08, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- I do think the study needs to be at least mentioned, since it does refer to this exact topic. ASW, what wording would you suggest instead? --Elonka 18:53, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. But linking them in that way could be misleading, in that one small aspect of the report may have had little or no bearing in the resolution. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:00, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Are you assuming good faith? Some Arbitrators even wrote they are merely restating policy about POLA (at 6.2), so it's fair to assume it is sufficiently articulated for them. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 09:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is true that "POLA, as articulated by the WMF board", as proposed by Arbcom, is vague and ambiguous because it is unclear the Board did articulate it, other than writing those words. Articulation, generally involves more detail. Nonetheless, several clicks on the resolution, Elonka linked, fails to turn up mention of Muhammad in it, as her "suggested wording" states. The topic is briefly mentioned in the Report (not the resolution), among a list of things, and discussed in a way that suggests they were either not focused on it, or did not understand the issue, particularly with reference to their use of the word "sacred," and it was only mentioned on the way to recommending that a user-image-filter for them be employed. Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:17, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Alas, the English Wikipedia community rejected a guideline that was merely stating those facts. I'm guessing that merely stating facts about opinions is seen as endorsing them at least to the extent that they are considered on-topic and somewhat authoritative, otherwise why bother mentioning them? More to the point, there are substantive differences between what the Harrises proposed and what the WMF approved, particularly with respect to religious images (an issue that was debated to death in the /Workshop, I might add). The WMF resolution did not mention images of Muhammad. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 06:48, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Few was changed today to none; I'm not sure how that error crept back into my draft, because I acknowledged it following last week's workshop talk feedback session. The WMF study was acknowledged in the background finding (#1), in the last paragraph, which I think is sufficient. Thanks, AGK [•] 01:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- That'll work for links, thanks. The only thing that I still feel should be added though, is that the WMF study specifically mentioned Muhammad images as an example of controversial content. Since this case is about exactly that topic, it seems odd to me that there's not a reference to this anywhere. --Elonka 07:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I've added a new FoF which uses your first sentence above, including that the study specifically mentioned Muhammad images. John Vandenberg (chat) 18:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- That'll work for links, thanks. The only thing that I still feel should be added though, is that the WMF study specifically mentioned Muhammad images as an example of controversial content. Since this case is about exactly that topic, it seems odd to me that there's not a reference to this anywhere. --Elonka 07:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Words
- participations --> participants, in first sentence of General caution to parties Prop. Remedies no. 9 Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:16, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
-
- Sorry? You may have intended to fix, but as of this comment, it's not. It's the second word in the first sentence. Thanks. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:54, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Minor copyediting
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
Hi, I have no desire to proofread the case with as much thoroughness as might be done on an FA, but there are a few typos that could perhaps be fixed?
- Capitalization is off. Some findings have all words capitalized, others don't (either's fine, I just recommend making it consistent).
- If going with the "every important word" capitalized system, then "Wikipedia is Not Censored" should be "Wikipedia Is Not Censored" (verbs get capitalized)
- In "Sober Eyes": "request for comments" should be "request for comment"
- "resistence to censorship" --> "resistance to censorship" (other than that, I really liked the proposed wording in this one)
- "and therefore cosmetic" --> "and were therefore cosmetic"
- "the images of Muhammad was" --> "the images of Muhammad were"
- "from the affected" --> "from the affected pages"
And there are probably several other places that could be tweaked, (like the word "Neutral" being capitalized in one of the remedies) but they start getting into obscure territory, so I'm not going to worry about them. :) Thanks for your attention, --Elonka 06:01, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Should
6 and 6.1 seem to have been carefully worded to effectively state support for POLA while also saying that it isn't a policy or guideline and Arbcom aren't treating it as one. 6.2 straight says that people "should" take it into account. You've all been here long enough to know that an Arbcom ruling that people "should" take account of POLA is going to be a key point much repeated in a multi-page heated debate over whether it effectively already is policy and endorsed as such by Arbcom. The fact that the surrounding commentary, but not the principle, seems to recognise that the community might decide otherwise just adds fuel to the fire.
Abbreviated debate follows as a starting point, just pad out a bit and add in the personal insults, edit warring on the (policy / not policy) page and wheel warring over protection of said page:
- Arbcom said we should do this, which means that it already is policy.
- Ah, but Arbcom don't make policy and they didn't say we should do it they said we should take it into acount.
- Well they intepret policy, so they've interpreted it as policy that we should take this into account.
- NYB said in his support comment that the community might not adopt it as policy or guideline, that's why he said "if at all" about the community adopting it.
- He said adapt, not adopt. If we don't adapt it then it's policy as written.
- He obviously meant to say adopt.
- I don't think so and even if he did then unless we decide NOT to adopt it then Arbcom have said we have to take it into account so it's policy until then.
- Arbcom don't make policy and AGK said Arbcom wouldn't interfere in the process and JClemens agreed.
- They said that on a principle that was rejected. The one that passed said we have to apply POLA, and that was them applying policy... 87.254.68.117 (talk) 06:42, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sure Newyorkbrad only had the highest intentions when he wrote 6.2. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 06:55, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
May
Newyorkbrad has now suggested "may" instead of "should" in the comments to that section. Seems [not] reasonable [for the reasons stated below]. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:37, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I dont think "may" fixes it. That would mean it isnt a principle; it would be ArbCom giving editors permission to use POLA in content discussions, despite it being a failed proposal, which is the point being made above by 87.254. John Vandenberg (chat) 18:12, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. You
may beare probably right about that. I have amended my comment. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:02, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. You
Please consider excluding Reference Desk from Ludwigs2's ban
I haven't been following this case too closely, but it looks like Ludwigs2 is about to get a one year site ban. I'd like to mention that Ludwigs2 has been a valued and worthwhile contributor to the Reference Desk. AFAIK, his conduct has not carried over in the reference desk. I ask the committee to please consider excluding the Reference Desk from his ban. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:05, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sounds reasonable. It is the talk page to end all talk pages, and that is where his preferences lie. Sections are too short & fast-moving for him to bog things down I think. Johnbod (talk) 16:34, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'd be inclined to agree if if weren't for his WP:DEADHORSE above. Banned means banned? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:57, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, but has this conduct extended to the Reference Desk? To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't. If there's evidence to the contrary, I'll withdraw my request. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Is the request that the reference desk be excluded from the siteban? If so, we could not allow that. AGK [•] 01:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps not technically but if there's no harm then "siteban" could simply be rephrased as something like "from all article and talk pages with the exception of the reference desk." This is of course assuming that he wants to stick around and be restricted there. I would certainly support this under the same condition mentioned by Quest. Noformation Talk 02:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm confused by your question. Are you asking this from a strictly tools perspective? IOW, are you saying that it's not possible from a technology perspective to site-ban an editor except for the Reference Desk? If so, then don't use the tools. AFAIK, there's no technical way to topic ban an editor either. ArbCom simply issues a ruling and the editor is expected to abide by the ruling or risk being blocked. Simply rule that Ludwigs2 is site-banned except for the Reference Desk, or risk being blocked. Ludwigs2 honored the topic-ban for astrology so I don't see any reason to suspect he won't honor this ruling either. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- AGK, I know you are quite busy these days but is it possible for you to follow up with Quest's question? AFAIK L2 has not been disruptive in this arena, and indeed the arena doesn't lend itself to disruption. L2's problem isn't causing a problem everywhere he goes, it's getting into protracted disagreements with editors in contentious areas. The RD is a place for people to ask questions and acquire knowledge and this exactly the kind of thing that L2 is good at. Over all I think it would be a net loss to the project to disallow him from this minor exception. Noformation Talk 00:19, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'd be inclined to agree if if weren't for his WP:DEADHORSE above. Banned means banned? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:57, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Proposed Principals 4.2 - Wikipedia is Not Censored
I agree with Jclemens. Belief systems shouldn't be singled out. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:14, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- I see this is fixed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 00:18, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Still problems with "Background to dispute"
There are still serious issues of accuracy with the proposed finding of fact "Background to dispute", which has hardly changed at all since the draft submitted at the start of the case (has it actually changed at all?). One basic error has already been adjusted by Courcelles (see sections above). If such a finding is made it should be accurate, but many of the issues were not covered in evidence, and the draft was produced near the beginning of the case. The proposed draft makes highly contentious statements about Islamic practice and art history, some of which are clearly incorrect. It is much too long and detailed, and the committee just has no need to go there, still less sign up to an account containing glaring errors. Most of these were pointed out when the draft first appeared, but these comments seem to have been completely ignored, and the draft has resurfaced entirely or virtually unchanged. It is especially important that we do not go into an RFC, where most participants will have little knowledge of the factual background, with a prejudiced and misleading "finding of fact" from the arbcom.
I have added a redraft below which simply omits most of the contentious and unnecessary detail, adding a few more relevant points that were omitted.
- "In Islam, drawings or paintings of Muhammad are rare..." - meaning what exactly? Two lines later "Images of Muhammad are uncommon in Islam", which is still vague, but less contentious. This whole sentence goes into un-necessary detail.
- "this faction asserted the article must rely on artwork created after Muhammad's death " - misleading; everybody agrees that there are no images from his lifetime, and this was never an element in the dispute.
- "such as those from an atypical period when Islamic artwork was common" Just nonsense; when was this "atypical period"? Who among the parties used this argument? Where is it in the evidence or workshop? At the end he means "when figurative depictions of Muhammad were common in Islamic art". Even worse, the placing of this within the arguments of one "faction" implies it was their view, when it clearly wasn't. In fact this meme was argued by User:Wiqi55 in the past, but was abandoned when it was easily disproved by RS.
- "artistic portrayals of Muhammad is common in Islamic artistry" ?! - just means "Islamic art", so say so.
- "Before this dispute came to arbitration, the disputants participated in extensive discussion of the images of Muhammad, at Talk:Muhammad/images. A decision was reached by consensus that some images of Muhammad should be included,..." - convenient for my side of the argument, but when was this actually? Near the end of the workshop phase I went all through the archives without seeing such a decision involving "the disputants". Such a conclusion could be drawn from the image-by image discussion in May 2011 at Talk:Muhammad/images/Archive_20#Critique_of_each_image, but only 4 of the 15 parties to this case contributed to that useful discussion, namely myself, Amatulić, Resolute and Ludwigs2 - and our contributions were limited, with none of us except Amatulić voting on all the images.
- "In addition to the question of striking a balance between images of Muhammad, it was suggested that more use be made of alternative forms of representation, such as calligraphic images (which are comparatively common in Islamic art) and veiled representations (which are more common than portrait-type images)." - all mixed-up. Veiled images are included in the "images of Muhammad", and have always been treated so by all parties; they are not an "alternative". They are also "portrait-type images" and have been treated so by all parties. As already pointed out "portrait-type images" is misleading - there are no images that can accurately be so described involved in the case (all the images are narrative, with small figures, usually many of them); "figurative depictions" is what is meant. What does "striking a balance between images of Muhammad" mean anyway? The addition of more calligraphic monogram-type images was very rapidly accepted by all when Jayen did it - in fact I couldn't see it being opposed by anyone (though his subsequent proposal of also adding Qu'ranic inscriptions was).
- "The dispute has been deadlocked for some time" Overstated, as has been said already in the case, and "some time" should be specified - I would suggest "since late October 2011". There has been an intermittent state of dispute on the page for longer, but if you are talking about the parties to the case, most only edited the page from around this point. Regarding "are more common than portrait-type images" (translation: "are more common than non-veiled images"), this may well be the case, but no one involved is a position to say so, and no RS does say so relating to the whole span of Islamic representations. There are complicated issues such as how one allows for images that were created with a facial depiction which was then painted over. But why on earth does the committee need to make "findings of fact" about such matters? It doesn't, and shouldn't.
Suggested re-draft, which mostly just cuts the contentious matters, as not essential. I have replaced the bogus art-history in the 1st para with a more relevant point about existing compromise placement, and added a long-term perspective (additions are italicized).:
1) The dispute relates to the use of images at the article Muhammad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), where the use of images depicting the person Muhammad has long been controversial, such that a special talk page, Talk:Muhammad/images, has been in place since February 2008, long before the majority of the parties to this case were involved. Broadly, the aim of the first faction of the parties was to retain the number of figurative depictions of Muhammad used in the current version of the article, in roughly the current placement. The basis for this position is that Wikipedia is not censored and, as a biography, the Muhammad article must include portrayals of Muhammad; the inclusion of images is therefore a reasonable editorial decision under the principle of least surprise. They asserted that the number was already fewer than would normally be in the case in such an article, and that they only began several screens from the top of the article.
The second faction of contributors moved for the removal of some (or less commonly, most) figurative portrayals of Muhammad, or for the portrayals to be placed less prominently in the article. The justification for this argument was that: the images were not made during Muhammad's life and therefore cosmetic in that they added nothing to the reader's understanding; that there was little use of images in reliable sources about Muhammad; and that the wide use of images wrongly implies that figurative portrayals of Muhammad are common in Islamic art, which distorts the reader's understanding of the subject, or would breach the 'principle of least astonishment' if they were aware of this. This faction argued that the figurative images of Muhammad were not important to the quality of the article, and therefore that they were unjustifiable in the context of the 'principle of least astonishment'.
Before this dispute came to arbitration, the disputants participated in extensive discussion of the images of Muhammad, at Talk:Muhammad/images, with most of the parties involved by October 2011. No agreement could be made about the precise number of images to include. Ludwigs2 opened a request for comment at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not about the application of the policy that "Wikipedia is not censored", and framed the discussion in terms of whether the images of Muhammad were 'incidental' to the article in that they were unessential to the reader's understanding - and therefore that inclusion was not a justified 'astonishment' of the reader. The disputants engaged in informal mediation of the dispute and discussed the issues extensively, without success. In November 2011, Resolute also proposed an alternative method of treating the portrayal of Muhammad (by basing Wikipedia's portrayal on that of secondary sources), but this was unsuccessful. The discussion was complicated by there being several possible ways to order the images, by debate about whether using less images constituted censorship, and by the question of applying the Wikimedia Foundation's statement on the 'principle of least astonishment'. Despite progress on some issues, the dispute has been largely deadlocked since late October 2011, and its intractability has been compounded by the conduct of several disputants, which was abrasive, unprofessional, or confrontational.
Comments from those who have been following the page are very welcome. Johnbod (talk) 18:20, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments
- Use/intention concern: I am concerned with the wordiness of the Proposed finding but more so it's use, after this case. How is it suppose to be used? Is it an adjudication of academic, scholarship, religious, historical, content, or other such claims? Or, is it not to be cited, as such, in the future? Perhaps, a clear disclaimer is warranted, within it, if this amount of detail is gone into. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:54, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Proposed disclaimer. "The purpose of this summary is not to rule on or prejudice the validity of any content related claim or argument, nor to describe the detailed positions of individual editors; rather, it is to back-story, in summary form, some of the issues under discussion, and procedural history, at the time this case came to arbitration." Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- John I think this is really getting towards WP:DEADHORSE beating. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:09, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- Assuming John was not involved in the internal Arbcom discussions, or has any knowledge that any internal discussions about these issues took place, it seems reasonable for him to lay out his concerns about the final draft, here. As, for example, others have in various sections above. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:23, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'll let my colleagues decide if we need to amend the wording, but so far as I can see - although accuracy is very important - it's not a terribly sensible use of our time to ensure every technicality is correct. We tend to look forward, not back, in our decisions, and the committee has a solid grasp of the (more important) general issues with this dispute. AGK [•] 01:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Johnbod on this one, the background section as currently written is not an accurate summation of the dispute. Particularly the characterisation of the "factions" (which we pretty much all agreed on the workshop was an unhelpful characterisation) does not reflect the actual position of either of the two sides you purport to define. I also feel that it is vitally important that all facts and factual statements presented in an arbcom decision are true - they are referenced time and again by different people in different disputes (almost all of which don't get to arbcom, but for those that do they provide key points of evidence). If the factuality of something is not relevant then it shouldn't be presented as fact (and probably is therefore irrelevant to the case). Thryduulf (talk) 10:11, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is a collaborative project, and you aren't going to win every single point you make as there are too many people involved.
- John what you are asking Arbcom to do is to accept the draft of the background from a party, who is by nature going to be bias. And frankly I don't agree with all of John's points, but its really at the point where I don't want to make a detailed critique of John's whole statement as that seems highly unproductive.
- There are two sensible ways to solve such a problem. Firstly you bring up 1-2 (relatively minor) points that you think are most in need of changing. In which case if need be they are easy to critique in a sentence or two, or to just accept as they are relatively minor and the committee can vote on them accordingly. This is what almost all of the points bought up on proposed decision pages amount to.
- Secondly if you really feel its not an acceptable draft you gather a bipartisan group to come up with a re-draft. Its almost certainly too late for this now and I don't know if the committee would accept such a thing in general - but it at least should be a reasonably neutral summary. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- As an example point 2 is worth getting right. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:51, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- This isn't about winning battles, it's about accurately describing the 'battles' (for want of a better word) that have already happened. There is no point in an arbitration finding saying users ABC were arguing W and X and users DEF were arguing Y and Z when in reality everybody agreed with X, most people though Y was irrelevant, W was a non sequitur and Z was tangential while the arguments were about MN on the one hand and QP on the other. AGK's summary isn't quite that bad, but it's almost as unhelpful. Thryduulf (talk) 11:35, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) @Eraserhead: I put the points down as I went through the draft, and soon realized that a suggested redraft would be necessary and more helpful; obviously this is proposed as a suggestion & basis for further changes. Yes, some points are more important than others. Most of my changes are simply cutting sentences that are a)incorrect and b)just too detailed for what the arbcom needs to say, and purporting to make statements of fact about art history etc. I have altered the language of the remaining parts very little, but added a couple of points that seem important if such a finding is to be included. Please point to any examples of bias, which I will be happy to change if convinced. I agree with Thryduulf above that the (modified) division into "factions" is rather over-simplistic, but have not changed that language except for touches to give a sense of the time-frame & when the present parties became involved. Johnbod (talk) 11:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I think you have both completely failed to understand my point. Expecting to get a complete redraft at this point is unrealistic unless you can get bipartisan support for it as it stands - in which case I object. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:47, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- As an example point 2 is worth getting right. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:51, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
It's not appropriate to have a summary like this making various casual and baseless findings of fact on matters which ArbCom is not qualified to decide. I can't see that it serves any constructive purpose and it misleads other Arbs. It may turn out to be the seed of future dispute and it may take away confidence in the process, since it will appear to editors on both sides that decisions have been taken on the basis of fundamental misunderstandings as to the nature of the dispute.
It was correctly stated here that ArbCom is not able to act as an art historian. There is also no reason for it to try. --FormerIP (talk) 16:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- How on earth are we going to resolve this dispute without a basis to start from? I'm really worried that you guys don't think AGK's summary is largely settled territory. None of you guys are even bothering to present any constructive and workable feedback. If ones boss goes and asks one for feedback about a project proposal you can't present a list of seven demands a day before he presents it - so many that a re-write is required and seriously expect him to take it on board. And that's the best of the complaints which at least manages to list the changes, rather than just stating that you don't like it. If I get asked for feedback about a project proposal I say stuff like, there's a spelling mistake here, the grammar here is a bit off, and then maybe challenge 1-2 more substantial points. If you do that I stand a pretty good chance of getting those points in the document and avoid anyone thinking I'm unreasonable. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is the place to settle conduct and receive certain guidance on policy and future behavior, correct? With respect to content, the community is being asked to approach with "an open mind." A reboot, correct? Is that what you mean by a settled basis? If so, any content dispute rulings would be off-topic, outside purview, as well as unneeded and unsourced. Nonetheless, it seems probable that the community would come to quick agreement on certain things, if not on others (but perhaps on everything - hope springs eternal) but the community should not be sidetracked by parsing what is suppose to be a conduct (non-content) related summary. At any rate, we should get as much guidance as possible now, about how to treat it, hence my proposal for a disclaimer, above. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:45, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- The arbs are still discussing their decisions. I would remind you that most of these points (and others) were made when AGK asked for comments on his original draft, but he has presented it without changes. This section was started as soon as I saw the unrevised secton. All you are saying (repeatedly and at great length) is that you don't think anyone on the committee is going to take any notice of this discussion. You are probably right, but now you've said it four times you can stop. And please don't use notes format, it makes the page very hard to follow. Johnbod (talk) 01:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- There was plenty of feedback given in the workshop phase. What's not been presented in any phase is evidence demonstrating the comparative scarcity of different types of image (in fact, where evidence has been provided, it has tended to go against the suppositions made by AGK). --FormerIP (talk) 18:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- John has admitted that calligraphy is much more common than other depictions, I haven't seen any evidence presented anywhere which challenges that analysis. And the feedback given in the workshop phase seems to be to have been taken on board - although lots of it wasn't really particularly well presented.
- As long as we are saying that calligraphy is much more common if there is a change you want to the content about the relative weight of images of different types I'm on board with that, that sounds like an achievable change that hopefully we can get. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Due respect to John, but his impression isn't evidence. And you're putting the BoP back-to-front. If ArbCom wants to make declarations such as calligraphic images being "comparatively common" (compared to what?) and veiled images being "more common than portrait-type images" it really ought to explain how it has reached these conclusions. Until proven otherwise, it's just circular justification for supposing the article should be presented in a certain way. --FormerIP (talk) 18:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- We've had tens of thousands of words of discussion on this, and no-one has presented any evidence showing that calligraphy isn't more common. This is really stating that the sky is blue unless there is significant evidence to the contrary.
- I agree with you that avoiding a statement on veiled images vs unveiled depictions is sensible - the evidence I found implied they were used about equally, but it wasn't particularly clear. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:31, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I've started a section about the weight of veiled vs unveiled depictions. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:39, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- (ec)
- Again, that's reversing the BoP. Caligraphic images of the type editors want to see in the article (i.e. those consisting of Mohammed's name) seem not be particularly common in history. To the extent that, whereas we have plenty of actual pictures of Mohammed to chose from, we have had to resort to user-created calligraphic images, because it has not been possible to find any usable real-life examples. That alone ought to tell you that the assumptions being made by editors are questionable. --FormerIP (talk) 19:40, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- [citation needed]. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Again, that's reversing the BoP. Caligraphic images of the type editors want to see in the article (i.e. those consisting of Mohammed's name) seem not be particularly common in history. To the extent that, whereas we have plenty of actual pictures of Mohammed to chose from, we have had to resort to user-created calligraphic images, because it has not been possible to find any usable real-life examples. That alone ought to tell you that the assumptions being made by editors are questionable. --FormerIP (talk) 19:40, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Due respect to John, but his impression isn't evidence. And you're putting the BoP back-to-front. If ArbCom wants to make declarations such as calligraphic images being "comparatively common" (compared to what?) and veiled images being "more common than portrait-type images" it really ought to explain how it has reached these conclusions. Until proven otherwise, it's just circular justification for supposing the article should be presented in a certain way. --FormerIP (talk) 18:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Cut-only version of "Background"
- If it helps, here is a "cuts only" version of the proposed section, which merely cuts the most problematic and "technicalities" sentences, which fortunately does not disrupt the flow, and leaves the rest untouched. Not ideal, but it removes the most problematic bits, and means the Arbcom is no longer making statements about art history etc.:
Background to dispute
1) The dispute relates to the use of images at the article Muhammad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Broadly, the aim of the first faction of contributors was to retain the images used in the current version of the article, and the current order of images. The basis for this position is that Wikipedia is not censored and, as a biography, the Muhammad article must include portrayals of Muhammad; the inclusion of images is therefore a reasonable editorial decision under the principle of least surprise. In Islam, drawings or paintings of Muhammad are rare, so this faction asserted the article must rely on artwork created after Muhammad's death (such as those from an atypical period when Islamic artwork was common) because no images of Muhammad exist that were created during his life.
The second faction of contributors moved for the removal of some (or less commonly, most) artistic portrayals of Muhammad, or for the portrayals to be placed less prominently in the article. The justification for this argument was that: the images were not made during Muhammad's life and therefore cosmetic in that they added nothing to the reader's understanding; that there was little use of images in reliable sources about Muhammad; and that the wide use of images wrongly implies that artistic portrayals of Muhammad is common in Islamic artistry, which corrupts the reader's understanding of the subject. Images of Muhammad are uncommon in Islam, and the reader would be surprised to find such images included. This faction argued that the of images of Muhammad were not important to the quality of the article, and therefore that the images were unjustifiable in the context of the 'principle of least astonishment'.
Before this dispute came to arbitration, the disputants participated in extensive discussion of the images of Muhammad, at Talk:Muhammad/images. A decision was reached by consensus that some images of Muhammad should be included, although no agreement could be made about the precise number of images to include, nor which types of portrayals (if any) to use in replacement. Ludwigs2 opened a request for comment at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not about the application of the policy that "Wikipedia is not censored", and framed the discussion in terms of whether the images of Muhammad were 'incidental' to the article in that they were unessential to the reader's understanding - and therefore that inclusion was not a justified 'astonishment' of the reader. The disputants engaged in informal mediation of the dispute and discussed the issues extensively, without success. In November 2011, Resolute also proposed an alternative method of treating the portrayal of Muhammad (by basing Wikipedia's portrayal on that of secondary sources), but this was unsuccessful.
In addition to the question of striking a balance between images of Muhammad, it was suggested that more use be made of alternative forms of representation, such as calligraphic images (which are comparatively common in Islamic art) and veiled representations (which are more common than portrait-type images). The disputants explored a different composition of files, including more calligraphy and less images of Muhammad, and of a different order of images. The discussion was complicated by there being several possible ways to order the images, by debate about whether using less images constituted censorship, and by the question of applying the Wikimedia Foundation's study of controversial content and statement on the 'principle of least astonishment'. The dispute has been deadlocked for some time, and its intractability has been compounded by the conduct of several disputants, which was abrasive, unprofessional, or confrontational.
Johnbod (talk) 01:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Still oppose. Mentioning the relative weight of calligraphy and non calligraphy is something we all agree on. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:18, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Is it? Arbcom making a statement about the relative weight of two options for presenting content seems to be a content ruling to me, something that Arbcom explicitly doesn't do. It should mention that these two options exist, that's purely factual and something everybody does agree on. It could also mention that not everybody agrees what the relative weight should be, again this is factual - even in just the workshop there were statements that there should be more and that there should be less. Thryduulf (talk) 09:51, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. Unless you have a serious source to the contrary. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- In the article maybe, but why here? And that point went into the article with general agreement, and has stayed there, where this sentence gives examples of matters intractably locked. And why does the arbcom need to show off its expertise in Islamic art history? Johnbod (talk) 10:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- So we have somewhere to start for our further discussions. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Is it? Arbcom making a statement about the relative weight of two options for presenting content seems to be a content ruling to me, something that Arbcom explicitly doesn't do. It should mention that these two options exist, that's purely factual and something everybody does agree on. It could also mention that not everybody agrees what the relative weight should be, again this is factual - even in just the workshop there were statements that there should be more and that there should be less. Thryduulf (talk) 09:51, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Alternative action for Ludwigs
Might I suggest that, rather than going for a site-ban, that Ludwigs be put on a sitewide civility probation for a year? Most of the diffs regarding his involvement in this case have been rather tame. His involvement in other cases has been very problematic, but those other instances appear to have been addressed in previous cases. Probation would, I think, encourage better behavior without preventing Ludwigs from making valuable contributions.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:55, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't consider repeated personal attacks and consistent tendentious behaviour to be "rather tame" myself. A topic ban is the absolute minimum that should be considered. Civility parole is a remarkably limp-wristed response to an editor whose behaviour has been "very problematic" in the past, and continues to be so now. You may as well just let him off the hook entirely for all the use any civility based sanctions tend to have on Wikipedia. Resolute 21:40, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
- I could not support a "civility parole" or anything similar. If an editor cannot contribute to a given topic, he should be banned from that topic. If he cannot collaborate as a general matter, he should be banned from Wikipedia. The conduct in question is seriously problematic and recurrent, which is why the committee seems inclined to consider a serious sanction - especially given the previous admonishment (which was not effective) and the recent topic-ban. AGK [•] 02:47, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Excuse me, AGK, I have a proven track record of collaboration. There have even been diffs presented in this case that show me calmly and productively collaborating with other editors (though those diffs were labeled as examples of me being tendentious - go figure). On Muhammad, I was repeatedly trying to work with other editors to reach some new consensus, or at least have a discussion about the issue. However, it is very difficult to collaborate with a coterie of editors who repeatedly assert that discussion is against policy and that no changes will be made.
- I could not support a "civility parole" or anything similar. If an editor cannot contribute to a given topic, he should be banned from that topic. If he cannot collaborate as a general matter, he should be banned from Wikipedia. The conduct in question is seriously problematic and recurrent, which is why the committee seems inclined to consider a serious sanction - especially given the previous admonishment (which was not effective) and the recent topic-ban. AGK [•] 02:47, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Again, if you want to bust me for what I've done, that's fine. Don't make stuff up.
- But I'm guessing that's not the real issue here. I hate to point out the obvious, but if you all are really desperate to get me off the project, why don't you just ask? I respect the project for its principles (more than anyone in this discussion, I'm starting to think), and if I can't convince you all to see eye to eye with me in a short conversation, then I'd be just as inclined to retire this account and leave Wikipedia to its silliness. My only goal all along in this debacle has been to make wikipedia a better (more sensible, more rational, more stable) place: Yes, that puts me head-to-head with a lot of people who don't want that kind of sanity (for reasons that seem very good to them), and yes, that can cause commotions. growing pains… However, if not even the arbitrators are ready for wikipedia to grow up, then there's no real point in the effort. I'll get a couple of pubs out of this experience (knock wood), so it's good for me; Wikipedia can stay just like it is.
- I swear, people make things so difficult… --Ludwigs2 08:30, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- To be blunt I think there is a pattern of sub-par behaviour in the diffs. They might not be the most damning diffs ever, but there is quite a bit of sub-par behaviour there. Additionally you've been topic banned from other topics already, so they don't want to just give another topic ban. -- Eraserhead1 <talk>
- The problem is that the attacks in this case seem to be far less serious than those he was previously admonished and sanctioned for in previous actions. Some would call that a sign of improvement. I also don't see probation as limp-wristed. Should he really be incapable of contributing civilly then it won't be long before he gets brought back on incivility and then there can be a lengthy site ban. If this can get him to contribute civilly, on the other hand, then the project will be all the better for it.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I think all parties...except the one named, obviously...to the case should sit these sorts of sub-topics out, really. We've had ample time to have our say. Tarc (talk) 14:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your tone is inappropriate. I don't want you off the project, and I never take pleasure in sanctioning, much less site-banning, an editor. As a point of accuracy, I also didn't include a siteban in my original decision; it was another arbitrator who suggested that we need to consider it, and the committee functions on majority decisions, though certainly I have said I will support the ban if my preferred remedies do not pass. However, your participation in the dispute over Muhammad has been confrontational, abrasive, and unprofessional. Specifically, though not exclusively, part of the problem is that you made "rationality" and "the truth" your objectives, as if the other disputants' views were surely the result of their own inadequate faculties; such intellectual superiority (which is surely unfounded - you are by no means the only rationalist or trained academic on this project!) is a serious problem. As a perfect example, look at the sign-off for your latest message: "I swear, people make things so difficult". If you don't see that as inappropriate, and can't see that a long-term history of comments of a similar nature is worse still, and that your admonishment earlier in the year and topic-ban in October demonstrates an ongoing issue with your approach to editing, then I don't think there is more for me to say here that will be useful to anybody. I will, of course, continue to check this page periodically, and I am happy to have my mind changed. AGK [•] 15:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- @AGK: let's break this up into two parts, because there are two things going on here, both of which speak to the problem I'm facing.
- First. In what way is my tone inappropriate? I was addressing the arbs in general, not you in particular, and I was referring to the following facts:
- (as of this date) five of them had supported a ban based on evidence which - on its own - barely merits an admonition.
- I've had at least four people tell me they want me site-banned directly to my face (granting that two of them are now site-banned themselves) - so the assertion that members of the committee might feel that way is not unreasonable.
- You, personally have gone out of your way above to reject a less harsh remedy in favor of the strongest.
- My suggestion that you (collectively) might want me off project may be wrong, but it is not unjustified based on your collective behavior. it calls for explanation.
- First. In what way is my tone inappropriate? I was addressing the arbs in general, not you in particular, and I was referring to the following facts:
- People in the real world are accountable for the things they do, AGK - these proposed sanctions are trying to hold me accountable for things you assert I've done, right? - and arbiters don't get a pass on accountability just because they are arbiters (any more than the editors on Muhammad get a pass on accountability for doing things that look like prejudice because they are 'good wikizens'). Asking people to be accountable for what they do is not inappropriate and not uncivil; it's a necessary component of a healthy consensus system.
- Second: I have never argued anywhere for 'the truth' (I'm philosophically skeptical of the concept of truth, if you must know). That aside, there is better reasoning and worse reasoning. If you treat comments like this (from ASCII) or this (from Tarc) as though they are equivalent to rational discourse then you effectively destroy rational discourse. You end up with precisely what we saw in this debate: people smothering substantive discussion under a load of emotional tripe. My aim has always been to convince people of the value of rational discourse based on its own merits, but if you consistently conflate ad hominem attacks with analytical thought, then you lose. Or rather, Wikipedia loses. Rational discussion cannot compete with ad hominem attacks; It will just get swallowed until all that's left is the "get in their face until they give up in disgust" approach that editors like Tarc and ASCII have perfected to a T.
- So let's get back to the point: I would like you (AKA the arbiters) to tell me what I'm being sanctioned for, explicitly, because I'm not seeing it. You say I was "confrontational, abrasive, and unprofessional." The last is clearly not true, and I was no more confrontational or abrasive than any of the other editors in the dispute (and less than some, though they did get to spread their 'in-your-faceness' across six editors). You say I'm not being collaborative: that's not true, and I can provide diffs to demonstrate it. You seem to be annoyed because I suggest you are making things difficult for yourselves, but you are making things difficult for yourselves - surely you must see that. Why does it annoy you that I point it out? --Ludwigs2 20:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- What is irrational about observing that an editor has "retired" and then continues to post? Perhaps you should read WP:DIVA, or better nominate it for deletion as "irrational"?! ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 03:49, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- So let's get back to the point: I would like you (AKA the arbiters) to tell me what I'm being sanctioned for, explicitly, because I'm not seeing it. You say I was "confrontational, abrasive, and unprofessional." The last is clearly not true, and I was no more confrontational or abrasive than any of the other editors in the dispute (and less than some, though they did get to spread their 'in-your-faceness' across six editors). You say I'm not being collaborative: that's not true, and I can provide diffs to demonstrate it. You seem to be annoyed because I suggest you are making things difficult for yourselves, but you are making things difficult for yourselves - surely you must see that. Why does it annoy you that I point it out? --Ludwigs2 20:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Ascii: first, 'irrational' and 'not rational' are distinct concepts. 'irrational' means crazy; not rational means not following rational principles. I don't think your statement was crazy, it just wasn't a functional move in rational discourse.
- basically, your statement was a taunt: there was no purpose to it in terms of the conversation we were having. The statement was snotty (sense 2); snotty comments annoy people (which was certainly the result you got, wasn't it?) So... Either you don't see the cause and effect relationship between snotty comments and annoyed responses or you do; doesn't matter to me which. Both are intrinsically non-rational: rational discourse does its best to avoid provoking annoyed responses, because annoyance (and similar emotions) always distract from the business at hand.
- You can think what you like about the things I say, but I'm rarely if ever snotty. If I have to comment on people I do my best to restrict my comments to behaviors immediately pertinent to the discussion. On Muhammad, I raised the possibility of prejudice because I saw behavior that looked very much like prejudice, which needed to be discussed. The worst you can say about Anthony's behavior is that it was human - he changed his mind, for whatever reason - and it certainly wasn't an issue that that was at all relevant to that thread or to the discussion as a whole. Bringing it up was just pointlessly snotty.
- In short, statements like this only serve to provoke people: they have no redeeming value to the conversation otherwise. such comments degrade the conversation into an emotional swamp, and make rational discourse impossible. You should have had the foresight not to say it at all. You should have had the hindsight to retract it as soon as you realized it was just a pointless piss-off line. You had neither, and actually tried to double-down on it in that thread and this one. That's not a rational set of behaviors if your goal is collegial discourse. --Ludwigs2 09:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- What do you think is more likely to provoke an annoyed response in a reasonable man: comparing him with the KKK/autistics/psychopaths/Jerry Springer audience/little weasels/the deeply prejudiced, or perhaps telling him he can't reason ethically or at all for that matter, or mentioning that he "retired" but keeps posting? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:56, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Again, you misunderstand, in precisely the same way you misunderstood on Muhammad. one avoids creating annoyance, but one does not avoid discussing what needs to be discussed. one simply needs to be as delicate as possible about it. I can't speak for anyone else, but if you go to any diff where I've used a word like that, you'll find one of two cases:
- I lost my temper and said something stupid, which is not a valid rational move in a conversation and out to be redacted (yes, I can be non-rational too)
- I was commenting on observable behavior that's causing problems on the article.
- If in fact there is behavior on the article that observable and pertinent that makes such comparisons necessary, then both you and I should be allowed to use them. It takes some tact to raise these issue: normally I'm good at that, but on Wikipedia (unfortunately) there's a culture of hysteria that refuses to accept tactful statements. --Ludwigs2 17:57, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Again, you misunderstand, in precisely the same way you misunderstood on Muhammad. one avoids creating annoyance, but one does not avoid discussing what needs to be discussed. one simply needs to be as delicate as possible about it. I can't speak for anyone else, but if you go to any diff where I've used a word like that, you'll find one of two cases:
Wikipedia is not censored 4.2
The second version of this proposed principle says
If a religion, belief system, or other viewpoint is opposed to the depiction, or inclusion of depictions, of a topic, our policy is not to deliberately contravene that opposition. Instead, the tenet that "Wikipedia is not censored" (or 'WP:NOTCENSORED') holds that Wikipedia should balance such opposition in our decisions about the inclusion of content, with scholarly discussion and alternate views which advocate inclusion.
I have a problem with "balance." To some, that might imply giving "equal weight" to both religious objections and other considerations, when in some instances such objections may be genuinely trivial or vexatious, or vastly outweighed by didactic value or other factors. I'd prefer "...Wikipedia should weigh such opposition against scholarly discussion and views that favor inclusion when deciding on placement of such an image." or words to that effect. This formulation enjoins us to take such objections into account but implies nothing a priori about weight. If your deliberations on this proposition are not in some way sensitive, would you consider sharing them with the editors on this page? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Tarc (conduct)
I'm worried about this proposed finding of fact. It includes: "Although he has been sensible in his interpretation of policy" and points to this exchange:
RobertMfromLI: To RfC or not to RfC? That is the question. Any thoughts?
Tarc: Not much of a point, IMO. Religious fundamentalism is never going to be a concern to take into account when making editorial decisions in this project.
How does that indicate he's been sensible in his interpretation of policy? The only thing it demonstrates is his failure or refusal to understand what I, Ludwigs and Hans were proposing. I bring this up because I fundamentally disagree with the proposition that Tarc has been sensible in that discussion. This is not hyperbole. I refer arbitrators to the collapsed content in here. It details the 46 significant edits Tarc made to the "debate" in October. It will also give you a whiff of the atmosphere generated by Tarc in that "debate." His "sensible interpretation of policy" was directed equally at me, Hans and anyone who dared to discuss image use at Muhammad. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:38, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Instead of linking to a version of evidence which was disallowed as too long, could you please link to Hans Adler's actual evidence and his subsequent explanation of it on the workshop page? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 17:46, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sweet Jesus, anthony, will you drop it? I am now somewhat regretting reverting myself last night, as I think there's some stuff in there that you really need to let sink in. We all had our say for the last month. Consider the simple fact that other people do not agree with your assessment of the situation. If I come out of this with a topic-ban as well, that's all there is to it, there's nothing I'm going to accomplish by stamping my foot and yelling. If the admonishment passes, I will take it to heart and limit myself to consise, to-the-point statements, will not get sucked into to personal back-and-forths. It's in their hands now, just chill and stop re-arguing the case. Tarc (talk) 17:48, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- ArbCom did not suggest that Tarc was "sensible in that discussion" (in fact, it is likely he will be admonished, and possibly topic banned, which suggests the complete opposite). However, the claim that we will not take religious fundamentalism into account is a sensible interpretation of policy. Fundamentalism is, almost by definition, a very non-neutral viewpoint. Resolute 19:35, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- The way you've stated it here it is not a sensible interpretation of policy at all. We represent each viewpoint in proportion to its prevalence in the best and most authoritative reliable sources. That reflection remains unaffected by whether any editor calls that viewpoint fundamentalist or mainstream religion. It either enjoys significant prevalence in the sources, or not. Perceived fundamentalism in itself is irrelevant. --JN466 03:36, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Issues with the background v2.0
I think removing the following from the background would be sensible: "(which are more common than portrait-type images)" - I don't think any evidence has been found that shows this and when I looked the source I found (sorry no diff) seemed to be saying they were used about equally. I don't think this is on as solid ground as the other points about depictions. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:38, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Is saying that editors engage[d] in political correctness more bannable than saying they are likely autistic, psychopaths, or have seriously twisted ethics?
I see this is shown as evidence of Tarc "casting aspersions", in which (as far as I can tell) the only aspersion cast is political correctness. If that statement is a bannable offense, what about comparing editors with autistics and psychopaths [5] or concluding they have "seriously twisted ethics" as the only other explanation [6]? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 23:01, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Wording error in Remedy 6.1 Hans Adler reminded
The new remedy 6.1 is headed "Hans Adler reminded", but the remedy starts "6,1) Hans Adler is admonished".
Given that 6.1 is explicitly intended to be an alternative to 6, which is entitled and starts "Hans Adler admonished", I'm fairly certain that this is just an oversight. Thryduulf (talk) 23:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Since when is Wikipedian a profession?
So that one may speak of "unprofessional attitude" of editors here? Since Essjay maybe? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 00:22, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I was close to asking something like that myself. I felt that maybe 'unprofessional' has become a euphemism in English, but now that you have actually asked this I googled it and got the impression that it isn't. If professionalism has become the new standard of behaviour hereabouts then that's a very important piece of information. I will try to make use of it next time I encounter a Randy or anyone else unquestionably unprofessional who is getting on my nerves. (Or is professional Randyism acceptable?) But I am not looking forward to trying to behave here in such a way that basically everybody agrees it's professional. That seems to be way too much effort for a hobby, and it was never expected of me in any of the three professions I have worked in so far.
- I apologise for the previous paragraph, which was clearly unprofessional. I also apologise for commenting on it instead of simply self-censoring it – another act of unprofessionalism.
- Is it allowed to point out that one of the arbitrators has behaved unprofessionally during this case, not to mention during the Arbcom elections, or would that be unprofessional? Hans Adler 00:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- LOL, I actually had second thoughts about nitpicking on that word and came back here to delete my (rhetorical) question. But since you replied, I do agree that using "unprofessional" as euphemism for stuff that is prohibited by other means like WP:DE, WP:UNCIVIL etc. is probably a bad habit for ArbCom to pick, especially since being a WP:RANDY is not actually prohibited by any Wikipedia policies, as you correctly point out. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 01:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I wasn't actually going to object to that phrase, because one of my own drums is that Wikipedia really ought to adopt some professional behavior standards. However, if one were going to rank-order the professionalism of people in this dispute, I'd be nearer the top the bottom. Jayen would get top slot, not question, Hans would probably wrangle for second with Kww, I'd come in neck and neck with a couple of others after that, and then all the people who did nothing except throw out ad hominem attacks and whine and moan about how abused they are for being asked to actually discuss anything would fill out the low-end slots.
- AGK was just looking for a quick and easy answer to a hard and difficult question, and that's what he came up with. can't blame him for it. --Ludwigs2 01:24, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I would take it to mean how one should behave at work. i.e. you behave politely and don't use bad language unless you know people well. It seems a pretty good way of simply explaining how you should behave - and make sure people don't act as you do down the pub or on a building site. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sounds right. Professionalism denotes conduct that is courteous, conscientious, businesslike. It's also aspirational or experiential, (as in "she is a professional fan"), assuming conduct, as if something is a profession. Wikipedia has professed a mission. Relevant communities often socially enforce professionalism by members, usually informally, but sometimes, for the few, formally. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I would take it to mean how one should behave at work. i.e. you behave politely and don't use bad language unless you know people well. It seems a pretty good way of simply explaining how you should behave - and make sure people don't act as you do down the pub or on a building site. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- AGK was just looking for a quick and easy answer to a hard and difficult question, and that's what he came up with. can't blame him for it. --Ludwigs2 01:24, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's more than being polite and not using bad language. professionalism implies that people stay focused on task when they're on the job, don't get in the way of (much less fight with) other employees, don't do things that put the success or reputation of the company on the line... If this had been the offices at Britannica, right now Jayen, Anthony and I would be redrafting the article on Muhammad, and Tarc, Resolute, and a few others would be fussing with their resumes looking for new jobs. Britannica management would have been suspicious of even a hint of implied racism (they'd have wanted a strong overriding reason), and they wouldn't have tolerated for a moment some of the overt statements people have made (I'm picturing their response to someone trying to tell them that Britannica is "a western, secular encyclopedia so it doesn't need to coddle religious concerns"; the Brits fume and splutter better than any culture I've ever seen). --Ludwigs2 10:02, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- "the Brits fume and splutter better than any culture I've ever seen", Aside from the complete irrelevance of editors' nationalities, I see you feel it perfectly acceptable to cast racial aspersions in the same paragraph as saying that "even a hint of implied racism [shouldn't be] tolerated for a moment". Thryduulf (talk) 10:23, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is several generations since Encyclopedia Britannica was British. Cardamon (talk) 13:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thyrd: two points (and I made that joke precisely so that I could make this observation, you realize):
- the difference between racism and humor is that racism unapologetically does things it knows people dislike; humor entertains people. there have been loads of British comedians (from Monty Python to Benny Hill to that more recent guy whose cross-dresses as part of his routine) who've used the schtick about blustering Britishers; there's no reason to believe anyone is likely to be insulted by this. But if you are honestly are insulted, my bad, I'll strike it.
- that's the way these things ought to be handled. do you want me to strike?
- you've provided me with another example of poor reasoning: you pointedly ignored the substantive point of professionalism in order to attack me as a person. It's actually astonishing: I talked about this very behavior just above, and here you are doing it again. Note that Cardamon raised a similar objection, whicb (while off topic), manages to avoid attacking me. That's a more sensible approach. --Ludwigs2 17:32, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- the difference between racism and humor is that racism unapologetically does things it knows people dislike; humor entertains people. there have been loads of British comedians (from Monty Python to Benny Hill to that more recent guy whose cross-dresses as part of his routine) who've used the schtick about blustering Britishers; there's no reason to believe anyone is likely to be insulted by this. But if you are honestly are insulted, my bad, I'll strike it.
- Thyrd: two points (and I made that joke precisely so that I could make this observation, you realize):
- There is certainly a problem here. "Professionalism" is only meaningful related to a specific profession, and being a Wikipedian isn't, by its nature, being a profession - no pay, no qualifications or exams, no training programme. What being professional means varies vastly between, say, being a soldier and a dentist. I agree with Ludwigs that (like the background section) this comes from "AGK [was] just looking for a quick and easy answer to a hard and difficult question", but I can tell you that isn't being, er, "professional". Johnbod (talk) 10:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Short slightly off-topic comment |
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<UK-mode on> Anthony (AGK) has a charming Caledonian way of expressing himself (Burns Night approaches). As a Novocastrian, Southerners on the other hand will remain a mystery–Phil Knight, Roger Davies, SilkTork or Elen of the Roads. It's probably all cultural: Cushie Butterfield, T. Dan Smith, Lord Lambton (imagine having to sing the Lambton Worm at school!) and Stottie cake. Oh yes and the killer: Cuddy's Cave, where as a child I was almost eaten alive by midges. Forget the Pine Barrens or Scotty's Castle, this was life in the hard North. <UK-mode off> Mathsci (talk) 12:26, 23 January 2012 (UTC) |
I assume the term "professionalism" is used in the decision in the sense best described in User:Kirill Lokshin/Professionalism, an essay by one of our colleagues on the Committee that I regard very highly. If anyone would like to propose a better wording, please feel free. The reference to Essjay at the head of this thread is completely gratuitious. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:21, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Probably so, but that is frankly very obscure - after 6 years & nearly 100K I edits I had never heard of it. AGK seems very set against rewordings, and there are more significant parts of the proposed decision where they are required, imo at least. Johnbod (talk) 17:47, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Nice essay. needs some revisions, but it ought to be policy, and enforced. --Ludwigs2 18:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Recommendation
In principle 6.2, about the "Principle of least astonishment", could we please add a link to the WMF information? Though the parties and arbs may be well aware of the WMF resolution and study at this point, other editors reviewing this case may not know of it. So it would be helpful if there were a link so they could easily find the full description. --Elonka 02:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Which link would that be having the "full description"? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 02:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm thinking the place where it's mentioned: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Controversial_content. Or is it discussed somewhere else? --Elonka 02:53, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sure, it was discussed somewhere else, for example at Wikipedia talk:Follow the principle of least astonishment, where most editors were unable to find this "full description" of the principle, although they were provided with the WMF link as well. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 03:21, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm thinking the place where it's mentioned: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Controversial_content. Or is it discussed somewhere else? --Elonka 02:53, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Background to dispute - finding of fact
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have been aware for some time that the parties object to some content in the summary that deals with the arguments of individual factions. (A couple of parties also object to some sentences that speak about the behavioural issues of the dispute, but I find these objections to be without merit.) My inclination is to pass the finding anyway, because to me it achieves its purpose of informing the readers of our decision about the general history of the dispute and to explain why we came to hear the case. However, it has been suggested that the finding could cause dispute in future because it is not accurate to the letter. Therefore, please entertain me and explain briefly why the accuracy of the proposal, where it deals with the technical arguments surrounding this dispute, is important to the objective of resolving the case. If the aim of the proposal is to explain in very broad terms what form the factions in this dispute take, why are what I perceive to me the finer points of these sentences critical?
I may have annoyed some editors by seeming to disregard their earlier suggestions to improve the finding as it existed in its "summary" form. To this, I can only apologise and say I thought my limited time was better spent on drafting the more significant aspects of the decision than on endlessly refining one proposal. I was alone as drafter of this case and struggled in my efforts to solicit feedback during internal workshopping. (My colleagues are all very busy people, and this is my first draft decision so it was never destined for perfection.) However, if I can be convinced that the proposal is individually important, I am happy to change my mind. AGK [•] 00:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Response by FormerIP
- If the aim is to explain in very broad terms what form the factions in this dispute take, then I think it would be as well to stick to this aim.
- What the summary does, in part, is make judgements, in very specific terms, that certain of the bases of the position of one party in the content dispute are correct. This is alarming, because ArbCom is supposedly not meant to intervene in content disputes.
- Specifically, the summary makes the following claims:
- That periods in which Islamic artwork (whatever, precisely, that means) was common are "atypical"
- That images of Muhammad are uncommon in Islam
- That calligraphic representations (of Mohammed, it is assumed) are comparatively common is Islamic art (compared to what is not stated)
- That veiled images (of Mohammed, it is assumed) are more common than portraiture in Islamic art
- I would hold that these four statements are either wrong or misleading. At the very least, they are contentious. They are also not helpful in terms of explaining the background to the dispute, because that does not require you to give your opinion. I don't think anything is lost if you simply leave out these incautious statements, but you could couch them so they may not be read as finding of fact ("in the view of some editors...").
- Incidentally, I am not so much annoyed by this. I'm more disappointed at seeing ArbCom in action. --FormerIP (talk) 00:44, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Response by Alanscottwalker
- I think you've done great work but what I don't want to see is editors arguing in content disputes about "Arbcom says, such and such, about content, so, that's the way it is," whether it's history, art history, religion or anything else. I don't want to see arguments about what Arbcom meant by 'Islamic art,' 'unveiled,' 'atypical,' etc., when that is not only unnecessary and not your focus but a distraction and not your expertise. Those things, and especially their relevance, must be left to the open mind of the community that you are asking for. You're not a reliable source, you're not trying to be, and editors should not be able to misconstrue you in that way. That's why I proposed, above, something like this to obviate all of that:
- Proposed disclaimer. "The purpose of this summary is not to rule on or prejudice the validity or relevance of any content related claim or argument, nor to describe the detailed positions of individual editors; rather, it is to back-story, in summary form, some of the issues under discussion, and procedural history, at the time this case came to arbitration."
- (Also, I am sure you have clicked on Johnbod's user page, but that may explain some of his exasperation about use of terminology.) Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Serious consideration should also be given to Johnbod's points (below) and his plans a or b. You may decide to do that instead of a disclaimer, or in addition. The hatted discussion, (arguing about "what AGK means" and "wrong in its detail") reinforces the concern, that these things can bring Arbcom into disrepute, and lead to arguing about Arbcom that should not and need not be. It is also important to consider, that while some might say today we "think" we understand the context (and how its not ruling on content), in the future as memories go and others are involved (including "uninvolved" enforcers), that will not be the case. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:01, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Response by Johnbod
- Thank you for the opportunity to respond. It is not a case of not being "accurate to the letter"; as a summary of the arguments in the dispute parts of it are fundamentally flawed, because they go into too much detail and get that detail wrong. You have replied to previous complaints that only the "wording" is objected to, but in a quasi-legalistic context "wording" is all there is. These are not "finer points" but sentences that are just all wrong. The "finding of fact", if left as it is, is bound to greatly confuse and complicate the upcoming RFC, which actually has the job, unlike this case, of dealing with these matters. When I asked Eraserhead above: "why does the arbcom need to show off its expertise in Islamic art history?", he replied "So we have somewhere to start for our further discussions." The draft as is makes the arbcom rule on matters of art historical fact, which it should not do in the first place, as content matters, and which, if it does, it should attempt to get correct, which these statements are not. There was little to no evidence on these matters produced in the case - as we know this section is virtually unaltered from the draft given very soon after the case opened.
I won't go into the inadequacies of the proposed text as a summary of the arguments of the parties, and especially those of the "keepers". There are several statements of art-historical fact given as from the committee:
- a)"In Islam, drawings or paintings of Muhammad are rare" - contentious because so vague; the main evidence from RS is that there are "countless" such images (Gruber)
- b)"an atypical period when Islamic artwork was common" - just untrue, and presented as part of the wrong side of the argument; a "removers" argument, long abandoned by them
- c)"Images of Muhammad are uncommon in Islam" - acceptable as a statement, imo, but does arbcom need to say this?
- d)"calligraphic images (which are comparatively common in Islamic art)" - made meaningless by the confused context; apparently these are not "images of Muhammad" etc
- e)"veiled representations (which are more common than portrait-type images)" - nobody knows; no RS for this; role of this issue in the argument completely mis-stated.
- f)"no images of Muhammad exist that were created during his life" (originally "few") - agreed by all
These statements are concentrated in two sentences which are flawed from every point of view and should be removed. Those members of the committee who, like myself, have real-world legal experience, will understand that cutting corners in terms of "wording" - ie accuracy, precision and correct terminology - is the worst thing to do. I'm sure you know the saying that if something is worth doing, it is worth doing well. I have presented above: a) a shorter redraft removing the controversial material, and adding two new sentences of new material, and also b) a still shorter version that just cuts the two sentences that are entirely problemmatic, both as summaries of the argument and in the statements of art-historical fact given as from the mouth of arbcom. Fortunately the rest of the statement flows ok without these. I think b) is adequate for the purposes of the arbcom decision, and does not leave statements that will prejudice or confuse the RFC, and are findings on content matters. Johnbod (talk) 03:32, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Response to FormerIP
No threaded conversations, please. AGK [•] 12:12, 24 January 2012 (UTC) |
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What you've written is a bit like seeing someone argue that "No, I think it is misleading to say that white light is made up of several colours ... at the most you could say that some editors have claimed that white light is made up of several colours". The basic facts at issue here are quite well known. Source after source has been provided to help out those who are unaware of them. [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] No sources to the contrary have been provided. Earlier on, an admin argued that Muslim scholars should not be considered reliable sources on Islam in Wikipedia, while said admin himself was clearly ignorant even of such basic matters as the difference between Shiites and Sunnis, or which one of the two would be the majority group with the stronger feelings about depicting the Prophet. How exactly is such behaviour different from that described in WP:RANDY? --JN466 03:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
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- When I asked for "brief comment", I did not have threaded conversations or rebuttals in mind. Please try to limit your responses to the views of the other parties. Thank you, AGK [•] 12:12, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I will change my support to the simpler Locus of dispute finding. AGK [•] 20:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
R1: Battleground
Isn't R1's community discussion just going to turn into a polarized yes/no vote? Stifle (talk) 12:14, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I wouldn't have thought so. The discussion is going to be constrained by Arbcom's statements and clarifications on policy for starters. Then we are going to decide on editorial grounds which images to include, and whether to include a depiction in the infobox, which should let us reach a sensible conclusion.
- As per finding of fact 1, which looks certain to pass, we will be able to use mediation and other similar tools if needed, but wider input from the community as specified by finding of fact 2, and remedy 9 make it clear that in general those people who are involved in the dispute currently should take a step back and that other people should get involved. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Wikimedia Foundation resolution
This proposed finding of fact includes:
A English Wikipedia proposal to adopt the Wikimedia Foundation resolution was initiated after the start of this Arbitration case. The proposal was rejected by the community during this Arbitration case.[20]
38 editors !voted. Most (possibly all) either expressed confusion about the meaning of the proposition or demonstrated clear misunderstanding in their comments, and many comments were objecting not to the adoption of the resolution, but to the wording of that particular proposal. (See the list of quotes immediately below the !votes.) So, I'm not sure it's accurate to say the proposal to adopt the resolution was rejected by the community, the wording of that proposed guideline was rejected. I'm very troubled by this proposed FoF. Thirty nine very confused or mistaken editors rejecting a specific form of words does not equal the community rejecting the Foundation resolution. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 18:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- It isn't really your place to characterize other editors' good-faith opinions on the least astonishment principle as "confused" or "mistaken". I am reasonably confident that those who participated in that discussion were quite clued-in as to what the proposal meant and what its impact on the project would be. It would be best to reconsider your wording of your "concern" here. Tarc (talk) 19:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Which aspect of this FoF do you disagree with? That a proposal was made, or that it was rejected? The statement does not preclude another, more specific, proposal being made in the future. Resolute 19:20, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- The FoF says that the community rejected its own proposal, which was to wholesale import the WMF BoT resolution. I agree it is not sensible to conclude that community has rejected the WMF BoT resolution. If you read my comment at Principle 6.1, you will see I believe the community will eventually build a good policy around the WMF BoT resolution, but that will take time, and the development of good policy will be hampered by people running around waving POLA in discussions as if it is policy. John Vandenberg (chat) 19:27, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with every word of that comment you just linked to. I would like to see NFCC applied to controversial content. Nevertheless, the proposed FoF is wide open to misinterpretation. Anyone reading it could be forgiven for thinking that that RfC rejected the Foundation resolution. It didn't. It rejected the form of words in the proposed guideline, as much as it could be said to have decided anything, given the repeatedly expressed confusion about whether the resolution addresses this project, and about its meaning, among other things. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 20:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- (ec)If that was your intent, then you expressed it very poorly. I saw your oppose vote on principle 6.2 and its rationale and thought to myself: "I had no idea that John Vandenberg is such a blatant wikilawyer." Your proposed FOF 1.2 goes in the same direction. It is unbalanced in that it says for no apparent reason that a concrete and rather poor proposal made by an inexperienced editor was rejected and says nothing which could offset this. This is going to be used by wikilawyers who want to argue that the principle itself has been rejected and that there is no consensus, and never will be consensus, to implement it in policy. (It appears to me that Kww has been arguing in that way consistently on the Workshop page.) Your support for principle 6.1 is not going to offset it. As you are currently the only one supporting it, your support seems unlikely to have any effect. So the only thing it does is make it clear to those who look very closely and with an open mind that you didn't intend to support the wikilawyering.
- Or maybe I am too fast and you are in the process of making further proposals? Hans Adler 20:20, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I echo Anthony's concerns. This FoF has an unfortunate similarity to the examples of WP:SYN I helped draft a few years ago. The proposal to make the POLA resolution a guideline was rejected as premature even by editors who want to see POLA-based policy, but correctly realised that in order to write a guideline, you can't just take a Board Resolution and write "Guideline" at the top. When the Board passed the BLP resolution, we didn't just take the text of the resolution and call that WP:BLP policy, either, nor would a proposal to do so have passed. --JN466 23:35, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- That seems to be John Vandenberg's point. If you say 'consider the resolution,' and people don't think it's a useful guideline. You haven't said much of anything useful, except to point to a resolution that people don't think is a useful guideline. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:01, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- You may have misunderstood there, Alan. The majority of respondents at that RfC, including me, were arguing against the proposed wording, not against the proposition that we adopt the Foundation resolution. It is important that any FoF issuing from this case does not inadvertently mislead due to ambiguity. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:41, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
One final observation and request from Tarc
Observation
My participation on this talk page over the last few weeks has been extremely limited, IIRC this will be at most the 3rd-4th comment. Without my participation, I note that;
- Ludwigs2 has expressed a complete unwillingness to recognize his conduct as detrimental to the Muhammad image discussions, and continues to argue the case that he is right and the rest of us are wrong, or unwilling/unable to counter-argue him intelligently. (primarily L2 and conduct)
- Both Hans Adler and Anthonycole egg Ludwigs on in the above section, the three of them casting a wide net of aspersions on the Arbitration Committee, using such terms as "general mobbing", "scapegoat", and "bandwagon"
- This behavior is also continued in Alternative action for Ludwigs
- Anthonycole complaining about wording of my conduct finding: Tarc (conduct)
- Ludwigs is again excusing his calling opther editors racists; Since when is Wikipedian a profession?
What this shows is that 3 of the primary advocates of less depictions of Muhammad have not ceased their activities one bit; they still believe themselves to be the smartest in the room, and others who disagree with them have defects both intellectual and moral. The same behavior that led to the Arbcom being filed in the first place, the same behavior that these 3 carried on on the Workshop page, and the same behavior we see now on this talk page.
I have been cited in a "it takes two to Tango" manner when discussing Ludwigs behavior, but I believe that since his (and others) behavior continues unabated, even without my participation, that that undercuts the "Tarc is also at fault" conclusions somewhat, and I stress somewhat. I readily admit that I have an acid tongue and do not suffer fools gladly (relax, it is just a saying), but I believe the behavior cited above shows that while I may be caustic, that that causticness did not inflame the discussions to any significant degree. Tarc (talk) 22:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Request
In light of the above, I request of those who have already voted, or intend to, for Remedy 4 a reconsideration in favor of 4.1, and note that 2 days ago I expressed a willingness to proceed with caution and discretion in future image-related discussions. But hey, for all I know, this could backfire and lead to more topic-ban votes, but IMO there are mitigating circumstances here to consider. That is all. Tarc (talk) 22:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I did nothing to warrant the treatment you dished out to me on that talk page. Nothing. I was polite, pithy, and constructive throughout. "Not suffering (your designated) fools" is no longer acceptable anywhere here. You need to undergo a major behaviour change, Tarc, and that goes far beyond bighting your tongue on image discussions. You appear to have learned nothing from this process. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Community discussion (with binding provision)
This mostly seems OK, but it doesn't appear to have provision for moving images to a spinout article, should one be created.
For example, say the discussion comes to the consensus that section "M" needs to be illustrated with two "important" images, but later the editorial consensus is to move most of that section into a sub-article and expand on it there. Two illustrations (of any sort) are now disproportionate to that section's relative weight in this article; but they have to remain as there isn't provision in this resolution for this situation. It might also be helpful to allow this binding agreement to also apply to spinout articles for the balance of the three years.
I don't think this is very likely, but it's far better to have a provision that isn't needed than to have a need for which there is no provision. Thryduulf (talk) 01:00, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Well, thanks for bringing that up. I did propose some ideas in that regard about "spinning off", recently at Talk:Muhammad#"Other Views" - Remove, change, improve. Comments welcome! Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:18, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Suggestion for wording of FoF 1.2
For the wording "but was rejected..." substitute "and the proposed wording was rejected..."? It's true that at this point the community has no defined guideline specifically on the topic, but untrue that any such guideline could never conceivably exist. Franamax (talk) 04:11, 25 January 2012 (UTC)