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I've gone through a few thousand articles and have placed a few here: [[User:Adamdaley/Articles needing assessment]]. Anyone can have a go at assessing them. [[User:Adamdaley|Adamdaley]] ([[User talk:Adamdaley|talk]]) 03:26, 10 November 2013 (UTC) |
I've gone through a few thousand articles and have placed a few here: [[User:Adamdaley/Articles needing assessment]]. Anyone can have a go at assessing them. [[User:Adamdaley|Adamdaley]] ([[User talk:Adamdaley|talk]]) 03:26, 10 November 2013 (UTC) |
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== Ottoman Turkish Empire wording dispute == |
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Hi all can any interested editors comment on a dispute at [[Talk:ANZAC Mounted Division#Ottoman Empire/Turkey]]. |
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It started by using the term Turkish, as per all the sources used, for the forces of the [[Ottoman Turkish Empire]]. An explanatory note is included in the article explaining why Turkish is used. However one editor changed the words from Turkish to Ottoman, then acknowledged there was a consensus, if only a small one, for Turkish. Since then they have decided that using Turkish is against [[W:POV]] policy. Even when the Ottoman Empire article uses the same terminology. To stop a potential edit war and content dispute can more editors contribute to the discussion. Thanks.[[User:Jim Sweeney|Jim Sweeney]] ([[User talk:Jim Sweeney|talk]]) 11:31, 10 November 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 11:31, 10 November 2013
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Afghanistan memorial lists
I recently proposed deletion of a new article Norwegian Armed Forces casualties in Afghanistan as it was clearly a list of those killed and serves no-purpose other than a memorial. I have recently discovered that we have a whole batch of these memorial pages like British Forces casualties in Afghanistan since 2001 (which has managed to get to B class). Just checking that the project stance appears to be that recentism has taken over from not memorial. MilborneOne (talk) 19:24, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
- Agree would support deletion not a memorial etc and from the talk page it seems there may be a Canadian article as well. Jim Sweeney (talk) 01:32, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that individual combat deaths in the countries which have deployed relatively small forces to Afghanistan attract huge media attention. Every time an Australian or New Zealand soldier has been killed it's been the main news story in the country that day, and then a major story on the event of their funeral (the funerals of most Australian servicemen killed have been attended by the Prime Minister and leader of the opposition, as well as the heads of the military) and when the military releases the formal report into the engagement, so there is some grounds for these articles in terms of availability of sources, if not consistency with other countries. That said, I've nominated several such articles for deletion in the past, and agree with deletion here, on the grounds that this isn't genuinely useful encyclopaedic content. Nick-D (talk) 09:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- Well done the Aussies then. All the British get is a mention in parliament, part of Prime Ministers questions, almost but not quite along the lines of any other business. Jim Sweeney (talk) 08:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- Hardly surprising, given the scale of the British contribution and the fact we've suffered more than ten times the number of casualties that Australia has! All deaths are tragic, but let's not forget that several British warships went down in the Second World War each taking more men with them in a few minutes than the total number of British casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq put together. It's a perspective thing. The public weeping and wailing, media reporting and memorialisation that accompanies every death now would have puzzled our forebears, who fought wars with far, far more casualties and accepted them as part of "life". That's not to denigrate any death in any way, incidentally, or the loss to the families, but it's interesting to make the comparison of how public attitudes have changed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- I'm editorialising, I know, but a WWII POW I know once said quietly to me that more Australians died in one night in Changi than have died in the whole ten years we've been in Afghanistan. He wasn't being disrespectful, he was just underlining that different times mean different perspectives. In most cases with these deaths, the individual subject of the article wouldn't meet WP:GNG due to the lack of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". The hurdle here is "significant coverage". IMO, that is why people have created these lists. The subject "British deaths in Afghanistan since 2001" certainly would meet GNG, but it shouldn't be a list of redlinked individual casualties (most of whom are sadly not going to meet GNG, it should be an article which discusses all the coverage of the subject. Only those casualties that are individually going to meet GNG should be redlinked. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:30, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- It is interesting - and encouraging - how attitudes have changed. I've been reading a bit about the Falklands War recently, and it's notable that the officers at the senior levels of the British military (most of whom were WW2 veterans) were willing to accept quite high levels of casualties - including multiple warships - and regarded this as part of the price which needed to be paid, while the British Government and the lower levels of the military were pretty shocked by the cost of the war. Nick-D (talk) 00:56, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- The British list doesn't strike me as reading like a memorial, the sample that I've read seem factual. I think the article has value for reference. --IxK85 (talk) 16:21, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Also interesting that Lord Carrington, Willie Whitelaw and Francis Pym, all members of Margaret Thatcher's cabinet during the war, had all won the Military Cross in the Second World War. At least they were men who knew what military action and sacrifice really meant, unlike those in power in most countries today. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:34, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- It is interesting - and encouraging - how attitudes have changed. I've been reading a bit about the Falklands War recently, and it's notable that the officers at the senior levels of the British military (most of whom were WW2 veterans) were willing to accept quite high levels of casualties - including multiple warships - and regarded this as part of the price which needed to be paid, while the British Government and the lower levels of the military were pretty shocked by the cost of the war. Nick-D (talk) 00:56, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- I'm editorialising, I know, but a WWII POW I know once said quietly to me that more Australians died in one night in Changi than have died in the whole ten years we've been in Afghanistan. He wasn't being disrespectful, he was just underlining that different times mean different perspectives. In most cases with these deaths, the individual subject of the article wouldn't meet WP:GNG due to the lack of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". The hurdle here is "significant coverage". IMO, that is why people have created these lists. The subject "British deaths in Afghanistan since 2001" certainly would meet GNG, but it shouldn't be a list of redlinked individual casualties (most of whom are sadly not going to meet GNG, it should be an article which discusses all the coverage of the subject. Only those casualties that are individually going to meet GNG should be redlinked. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:30, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- Hardly surprising, given the scale of the British contribution and the fact we've suffered more than ten times the number of casualties that Australia has! All deaths are tragic, but let's not forget that several British warships went down in the Second World War each taking more men with them in a few minutes than the total number of British casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq put together. It's a perspective thing. The public weeping and wailing, media reporting and memorialisation that accompanies every death now would have puzzled our forebears, who fought wars with far, far more casualties and accepted them as part of "life". That's not to denigrate any death in any way, incidentally, or the loss to the families, but it's interesting to make the comparison of how public attitudes have changed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- Well done the Aussies then. All the British get is a mention in parliament, part of Prime Ministers questions, almost but not quite along the lines of any other business. Jim Sweeney (talk) 08:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- It's worth noting that individual combat deaths in the countries which have deployed relatively small forces to Afghanistan attract huge media attention. Every time an Australian or New Zealand soldier has been killed it's been the main news story in the country that day, and then a major story on the event of their funeral (the funerals of most Australian servicemen killed have been attended by the Prime Minister and leader of the opposition, as well as the heads of the military) and when the military releases the formal report into the engagement, so there is some grounds for these articles in terms of availability of sources, if not consistency with other countries. That said, I've nominated several such articles for deletion in the past, and agree with deletion here, on the grounds that this isn't genuinely useful encyclopaedic content. Nick-D (talk) 09:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
More eyes please...
Can we have some eyes on Audie Murphy, please!
The same editor, whose name has been raised here countless times before, is currently engaged in an effort to remove the "of World War II" part from the lead – this is nothing more than POV-bias, as not having Murphy mentioned as one of the most decorated of that period leaves the sentence open to ambiguity, suggesting he's the most decorated of what?? All U.S. history? All world history? All of time? His notability results from his WWII career and subsequently his many decorations, one can't exist without the other.
It really is very frustrating that over the last year a few editors took a lot of time to overhaul this article from low-quality to A-Class and GA, but this editor single-handedly continues to rewrite content to pre-review quality, ignoring consensus and the efforts of those who improved and reviewed it. The article is supposed to be heading for FA, but edits such as this are simply doing more harm than good, they are often sub-standard or fail to meet Wiki MOS or other policies. There are well over 100 watchers of this article, yet only one or two of us are dealing with the disruptions to progress. It makes us look like we're war editing or have some kind of hold on it, when there is genuine need to maintain a stable article and add/improve the content, rather that see it get picked at daily and condensed into "personal preference" type edits, before FA will even accept it. The WP:IDHT attitude of said editor is enough to drive anyone mad. More eyes, please... Ma®©usBritish{chat} 07:50, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- MarcusBritish himself has put in a lot of time trying to stem the tide, but what's happening is more than one or two people can handle. The article is being rewritten, one sentence at a time, one section at a time, with all talk page issues being ignored except, apparently, as an idea of what to rewrite at will. Largely unsourced, and unknown how much copyvio might be there now. Please refer to the edit history for details.— Maile (talk) 22:32, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- G'day, if attempts to discuss the matter have not resolved the situation, perhaps it should be escalated to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard? Of course, it would be best if it could be sorted out without such a recourse, but sometimes it is appropriate. At least that way there would be some independent review, regardless of the outcome. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 22:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for the advice. Will keep it in mind. Somebody stepped in and put a 48-hour block on the disruptive editor. — Maile (talk) 23:00, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- My secondary concern is that some bureaucrat-minded admin is going to look at the history of the article and see just myself and Maile66 reverting the same editor time and time again. It appears on first sight that we're either bullying the editor or have some sort of Randy co-op/ownership thing going in. This is far from the truth; the problem here is that Murphy is a well known name, naturally the article attracts a lot of attention. If Maile66 had been able to create and develop the article from scratch in a sandbox, he wouldn't have had these issues, because no one would likely attempt to mess about with it, and it would go straight through PR and/or FAR once published and receive higher praise and protection, as FA virtually guarantees the integrity of the content. As it stands now, the editor is question is showing no respect for the work being done by Maile66 to bring it up from C or B-class, which it was at a year ago, to A-class/GA where is stands now. If it had not been for this other editor, chances are high that it would be an FA by now.. but the need to have to review every petty tweak and personal touch by him causes setbacks, and is more demoralising that anything. I know that I would have given up on trying for an FA months ago had someone encroached on my work so obnoxiously and provocatively on such a regular basis. The editor is ignorant of the community, of consensus, of guidelines and quality standards, often reducing the parts he edits to lower standards. This shows a lack of competence and an unwillingness to read and learn the guidelines and integrate with Wiki as a mature or self-respecting editor normally would. It's impossible to create an FA article when someone keeps making low-quality edits that damages the existing content. I have no idea how the matter can be resolved, because the editor is resistant to discussion and is unwilling to cooperate with those developing the article. Ma®©usBritish{chat} 23:09, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- FWIW, I am at least a bit familiar with this issue, and having worked on quite a few articles where similar behaviour has occurred, I think WP:AIN (with a view to an extended topic ban on the editor) is the way to go. If the editor is able to show that they can edit constructively elsewhere over a six month period, then they could apply for the ban to be lifted. If not, then no harm, no foul, and the ongoing disruption stops. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:11, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
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- Marcus, I was the admin in question who imposed the 48-hour block. Please take your case to WP:ANI, and I will support if necessary. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:39, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
map copies
Does anyone know how to lift maps from https://archive.org/details/historywartimes14londuoft whIch is (I think) out of copyright?
The maps on pp 42, 50, 56, 61, 68, diagram on p. 74 and map on pp.76-77 are what I'm after but pdf viewer and Open Office don't want to co-operate. Suggestions from a computer aficionado would be appreciated. Thanks.Keith-264 (talk) 17:36, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- Download the whole book as a pdf, select and copy the images, paste into PAINT or similar, and save. You can work on them with editing software then if you wish 17:49, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- Concur with the above comment. I downloaded it as a .pdf (took a while because it is a big document), then used the "take a snapshot" tool of Adobe reader to select and copy the map on page 42. At this point, I was able to copy it into NeoPaint, my graphics software. It could then be saved in a variety of formats and uploaded to Wikimedia as a file for general use. W. B. Wilson (talk) 17:54, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- I've managed to upload the maps I want most here Battle of the Hills but I don't know how to alter the scale and add them together. Any suggstions?Keith-264 (talk) 18:42, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- By "alter the scale", I assume you mean the size of the image. One problem is that both of your files are .pdf files. Try selecting them in Adobe Reader with the "take a snapshot" tool. This copies the selected area to your clipboard. Then open Paint or another graphics program and paste the clipboard image in as a new image -- and save to a format like .jpg or .png . Once you have these two maps in a graphics file format like .jpg or .png, it should be possible to adjust the overall size of one of the images to include space for the other, and then to paste the second image (with moving it around a bit) to create a single image. This is all more simple to do than it is to attempt to explain in text. If you run into difficulties, I'll see if I can create a single image from your two images. W. B. Wilson (talk) 18:57, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- I had a try and got as far as making the first half of the map a jpeg but after that everything disappeared into the ether.Keith-264 (talk) 20:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
- Managed to paste both sides of the map into Paint but couldn't get them side by side, I'll keep trying.Keith-264 (talk) 07:05, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- I've created one version of a joined image, but the two scans seem to have a small difference in resolution and it makes it hard to join them well. Have you had better luck? Cheers, W. B. Wilson (talk) 08:47, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- Not a sausage I'm afraid. When I tried to move the images side-by-side one disappeared....Keith-264 (talk) 11:37, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- The two maps are not exactly to the same scale - so I had to crop the edges because they didn't align. For this type of job, I find Snagit to be the best tool! Please add categories.... Farawayman (talk) 19:24, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks Faraway I'm on a computer course, honest. Still procrastinating about the Delville Wood revision....Keith-264 (talk) 19:44, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
For about a week now there has been an ongoing Wiki-skirmish (not really a war) spluttering along over a somewhat neglected aspect of the catastrophic British retreat from Kabul during the 1st Afghan War of 1842. The issue is the fate of the 12,000 odd Indian camp followers accompanying Elphinstone's British and Indian soldiers. Contemporary British writers were concerned mainly with British prisoners (a number were later released), to a much lesser extent with the Indian sepoys (a few made it back) and scarcely at all with the unfortunate camp-followers (most of whom it is assumed died in the retreat or were enslaved). Editor Fareed30 has been aggressively pursuing the premise that the Indians were taken prisoner, released "on a case by case basis" and then either returned to India or stayed on Afghanistan as the originators of the present Hindu minority there. Well fine but he repeatedly challenges the source cited of the "mostly froze, starved, died of disease, were killed or enslaved" case (a 2010 book by the British historian Linda Colley), on the grounds that she was not there in 1842 and that a book which cannot be accessed online is not a verifiable reliable source. His counter-argument repeatedly cites a BBC News article (which is available online) dealing with the difficulties faced by the modern Sikh community in Afghanistan. It makes a passing reference to this minority (plus a few Hindus) having been brought in by the British during the 19th century but in no way links them to the hapless refugees of 1842. As is often the case on Wikipedia when differing historical and nationalistic views collide the argument goes round and round. Could anyone having an interest in the period, plus access to reliable reference sources, look at the lede section of 1842 Retreat from Kabul and attempt to resolve the dispute one way or the other. Thanks. Buistr (talk) 06:51, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Miniature medals
The image above shows two Crimea War medals, and the corresponding miniature versions. What is the correct term for the latter? What are the criteria determining which are worn on a given occasion? Our articles on medals, and on military decorations, don't mention this. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:15, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- I believe that Minature Medals are for wear on Mess dress only. MilborneOne (talk) 12:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- Or evening wear (in the UK). This may be useful. Ranger Steve Talk 12:47, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- Mess kit (officers, warrant officers and senior non-commissioned officers), or at functions in the evening (usually black tie) in Australia. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 20:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- Or evening wear (in the UK). This may be useful. Ranger Steve Talk 12:47, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
105th and 709th Air Refueling Squadrons
I recently ran across stubs 105th Air Refueling Squadron and 709th Air Refueling Squadron. I have doubts that either squadron existed and have marked the single sentence in the articles as dubious and started a discussion on the talk page. If anyone would like to support the existence of these units (the only evidence I find is on patch sites) and their notability if they existed, feel free to comment. I'll wait a while before nominating them for deletion. --Lineagegeek (talk) 12:21, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- The 105th may have been "misidentified" from the 105th airlift squadron (TNAFNG). The 709th...the one patch I saw was the approved Wing or Group configuration and not a squadron patch, and even then it doesn't look quite right. I did find reference to it in "Poised for the New Millennium: The Global Reach of the Air Mobility Command", which implies that the unit existed for about a year (1994-1995). That same linked publication doesn't mention the 105th...in fact it skips to the 300s before listing more units. Intothatdarkness 21:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Fighting season
News articles often refer to the beginning or end of the "fighting season" and I've noticed that there is no article on the concept. Is it something that might be worthy of an article and is there someone here who knows enough to write one? Ryan Vesey 03:32, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- I'd say it's worth a page. Can't say I know enough for a page, but as I understand it, it was an ancient tradition: Greek troops were farmers, so they'd fight before harvest. (Between planting & harvest, IIRC, but don't hold me to it). There's also issues of fodder. Armies couldn't fight in winter, because fodder for cav wasn't available. (Don't recall why, now; IIRC, Mongols grazed on the march, which made them more flexible, but I wouldn't want to rely on that too much, either. :( ). Hope that's some help, anyhow. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 06:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- It is touched upon in Military campaign -- The purpose of a military campaign is to achieve a particular desired resolution of a military conflict as its strategic goal. This is constrained by resources, geography and/or season. A campaign is measured relative to the technology used by the belligerents to achieve goals, and while in the pre-industrial Europe was understood to be that between the planting (late spring) and harvest times (late autumn). W. B. Wilson (talk) 06:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- It's a hugely important topic: before modern times it was unusual for any significant fighting to take place during the winter in cool climates (even as late as the US Civil War there was a lull in the fighting during the winter), and it continues to affect recent warfare. Nick-D (talk) 06:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- It's also a flexible concept. If you look at the Indian Wars, the Army actually tried to operate more in the winter when Native American mobility was restricted. On the reverse, most tribal skirmishes and raids on Anglo settlers took place during the summer months when Native mobility was high. Intothatdarkness 16:24, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- It's a hugely important topic: before modern times it was unusual for any significant fighting to take place during the winter in cool climates (even as late as the US Civil War there was a lull in the fighting during the winter), and it continues to affect recent warfare. Nick-D (talk) 06:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- It’s also frequently called the campaign(ing) season.—Odysseus1479 07:02, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Take care in writing this article as there is a lot of "received wisdom" on this which may lead astray. Pre-industrial armies could, and surprisingly often did, fight in winter. Indeed, the Teutonic Knights specialised in winter warfare because it froze the ground, making impassable wilderness passable.Monstrelet (talk) 08:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Very location specific. In places like Afghanistan and Yugoslavia, the fighting season has always been the time of the year when fighting is feasible. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:56, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Take care in writing this article as there is a lot of "received wisdom" on this which may lead astray. Pre-industrial armies could, and surprisingly often did, fight in winter. Indeed, the Teutonic Knights specialised in winter warfare because it froze the ground, making impassable wilderness passable.Monstrelet (talk) 08:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- If anyone's taking this one would be interesting reading. But there are some grey areas. Napoleon and Hitler's failure at Moscow spring to mind. Would that be because the fighting season had ended and they had not achieved their objective? Jim Sweeney (talk) 09:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- On the Hitler example, that's another case of a location-specific campaigning season. The fighting largely stopped once the rasputitsa hit in the fall and then restarted once it got cold enough to freeze the ground. Parsecboy (talk) 09:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- I would agree with Parsecboy that rasputitsa had a significant part to play in Hitler's failures on the Eastern Front. I am currently reading Engineers of Victory, (Paul Kennedy, Random House (2013), New York, ISBN 978-1-4000-6761-9) a very readable account of how small engineering advances made just prior to and during World War II made a tremendous difference on the outcome of the war. The chapter titled "How to stop a Blitzkrieg" explains the term "rasputitsa" (page 175) and how it affected Hitler's effort to conquer the Soviet Union. This is the first time I had heard the term and I had just read about it the night before while reading. Life is indeed interesting... I recommend the book, BTW Cuprum17 (talk) 17:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- I think this topic would be a fantastic article; the background of the campaigning season is, as Monstrelet mentions, oft misunderstood. The biggest problem you'll have is that the subject of the article is almost more notable "in the breach" than "in the observance", and so balancing the temptation to talk about all the instances where the campaign season was ignored (for instance, several important campaigns in the French and Indian, and American Revolutionary Wars were fought during the cold of winter) with the need to accurately catalog the background of the campaign season is important. I am willing to help, since I much prefer early modern warfare, and may have some sources. The most important classical source on the subject is probably Victor Davis Hanson's Warfare and Agriculture in Classical Greece, which, despite Hanson being more famous for his politically-tinged scholarship, does a thorough job of reviewing the impact of war on agriculture and vice-versa. I own a copy, so let me know if that is of interest to you Cdtew (talk) 17:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Well, VDH isn't too bad when he sticks to what he knows, which is classical Greece - on the other hand, his chapter in Carnage and Culture on Midway is almost laughably bad. And of course, you can drive the thousand years from the fall of Rome to the military revolution in the 15th/16th century through the gaping holes in his WWoW thesis, but I digress.
- Another thing to be wary of is the tendency to look at this phenomenon from the European perspective. For instance, the fighting season in Vietnam during the French and American wars (and, well, any time, but I am most familiar with its impact on these wars) was dictated by the two annual monsoons (which had different effects, depending on which side of the Annamite Mountains you were on). While it will probably be difficult if not impossible to give a full, global accounting of the phenomenon, we might as well start the article and see where we get. And while we're volunteering to work on sections, I could do a section on the Vietnam case. Parsecboy (talk) 18:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- "rasputitsa had a significant part to play in Hitler's failures on the Eastern Front" I'm not sure I'd go that far, but it does put paid to the common myth (prevalent even in AH, where you'd expect people to know better...) it was the Greek campaign that caused the delay in starting Barbarossa. Clearly, it wasn't. Which does bring up the issue of the influence of weather (& the fighting season) on the start & end dates of campaigns. Has this effectively decided a war, ever? I seem to recall the ancient Greeks at least once saying, in effect, "Look, we've got to get back for harvest. Let's call in a couple of champions, let them fight it out, & call it on account of darkness." No? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 13:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- I think this topic would be a fantastic article; the background of the campaigning season is, as Monstrelet mentions, oft misunderstood. The biggest problem you'll have is that the subject of the article is almost more notable "in the breach" than "in the observance", and so balancing the temptation to talk about all the instances where the campaign season was ignored (for instance, several important campaigns in the French and Indian, and American Revolutionary Wars were fought during the cold of winter) with the need to accurately catalog the background of the campaign season is important. I am willing to help, since I much prefer early modern warfare, and may have some sources. The most important classical source on the subject is probably Victor Davis Hanson's Warfare and Agriculture in Classical Greece, which, despite Hanson being more famous for his politically-tinged scholarship, does a thorough job of reviewing the impact of war on agriculture and vice-versa. I own a copy, so let me know if that is of interest to you Cdtew (talk) 17:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- I would agree with Parsecboy that rasputitsa had a significant part to play in Hitler's failures on the Eastern Front. I am currently reading Engineers of Victory, (Paul Kennedy, Random House (2013), New York, ISBN 978-1-4000-6761-9) a very readable account of how small engineering advances made just prior to and during World War II made a tremendous difference on the outcome of the war. The chapter titled "How to stop a Blitzkrieg" explains the term "rasputitsa" (page 175) and how it affected Hitler's effort to conquer the Soviet Union. This is the first time I had heard the term and I had just read about it the night before while reading. Life is indeed interesting... I recommend the book, BTW Cuprum17 (talk) 17:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- On the Hitler example, that's another case of a location-specific campaigning season. The fighting largely stopped once the rasputitsa hit in the fall and then restarted once it got cold enough to freeze the ground. Parsecboy (talk) 09:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
The twice a year "rasputitsa" seasons certainly didn't help Hitler's Barbarossa plans, coupled with his failure to equip his armies with winter clothing and supplies. The Russians were familiar with the problems of the rasputitsa and the severe winters on the steppes and used it to every advantage. The rasputitsa kept Hitler's generals from supplying the forward elements of the German advance with food, ammunition and fuel because the roads that were to be used were quagmires twice a year. To me, that reads significant. While it is true the German Army managed to recover ground during the dry summer months in many places, they developed no plan to use the two seasons to advantage. Hitler pushed his generals on the Eastern Front unmercifully and fired those generals that wouldn't or couldn't capture ground; von Rundstedt was an example. He would accept no excuses, even impassable mud...but then Hitler was a has-been corporal from another war.Cuprum17 (talk) 16:11, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps "Effects of seasonal weather on warfighting" might be a more appropriate name for such an article? Fighting season implies A season, when in fact fighting can be limited but also enhanced by the same season. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:33, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
AfC submission
Here's another one for you guys! Regards, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 11:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Requesting a third opinion as I don't want an edit war.D2306 (talk) 20:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
This notice is to advise interested editors that a Contributor copyright investigation has been opened which may impact this project. Such investigations are launched when contributors have been found to have placed copyrighted content on Wikipedia on multiple occasions. It may result in the deletion of images or text and possibly articles in accordance with Wikipedia:Copyright violations. The specific investigation which may impact this project is located here. (Just as a note - much of what I've seen myself is close paraphrasing.)
All contributors with no history of copyright problems are welcome to contribute to CCI clean up. There are instructions for participating on that page. Additional information may be requested from the user who placed this notice, at the process board talkpage, or from an active CCI clerk. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:24, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
This notice is to advise interested editors that a Contributor copyright investigation has been opened which may impact this project. Such investigations are launched when contributors have been found to have placed copyrighted content on Wikipedia on multiple occasions. It may result in the deletion of images or text and possibly articles in accordance with Wikipedia:Copyright violations. The specific investigation which may impact this project is located here. (Access to books in this field would be helpful, especially to clear content, as this contributor has heavily taken from book sources, but there are also articles that draw from online sources.)
All contributors with no history of copyright problems are welcome to contribute to CCI clean up. There are instructions for participating on that page. Additional information may be requested from the user who placed this notice, at the process board talkpage, or from an active CCI clerk. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:39, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
No Gun Ri Massacre
Not sure if this is the appropriate place for a request like this, but there is currently some discussion over the content of the No Gun Ri Massacre article. I'd appreciate anyone with an interest in military history to take a look. Thanks. WeldNeck (talk) 16:43, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
What the hell is going on: War criminals that look 100% identical
Template:Multicol-end See Sanji Iwabuchi and Naomasa Sakonju - both are WW2 Japanese war criminals, and the infobox photograph on both articles look awfully similar, pretty much the same dare I say. The photographs are separate files hosted on Commons with different file descriptions. Could it be that these two people are identical twins manufactured from some super secret Japanese laboratory that nobody's heard about? Or, has something gone wrong, and completely unnoticed since 2012? Is anyone able to confirm exactly who is who? --benlisquareT•C•E 18:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
- Someone also better inform the Japanese Wikipedia, because it looks like they're in the same boat as well: ja:左近允尚正, ja:岩淵三次. --benlisquareT•C•E 18:28, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
What's a military occupation?
Your input at Talk:Military occupations#Requested move would be appreciated. You may also be interested in the discussion at Talk:Soviet occupations#Requested move. --BDD (talk) 21:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Assistance requests for keeping an eye on the 11 November TFA
To my surprise, John Treloar (museum administrator) was selected to appear on the main page as the today's featured article on 11 November. However, I'm going to be travelling at this time, and probably won't be able to keep an eye on the article. I'd appreciate it if other editors could watchlist it, and help with reverting the inevitable vandalism. Thanks, Nick-D (talk) 01:00, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- Not at all disappointed to see it there, Nick -- good choice. I have it on my watchlist anyway but be good if some on the other side of the world to Sydney can do so as well... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:03, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- G'day, Nick, I've watchlisted it too, but obviously I'm not that far from Sydney... Have fun on your trip. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 01:47, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- I've watchlisted, but I'm in pretty much the same timezone as well. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:56, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- G'day, Nick, I've watchlisted it too, but obviously I'm not that far from Sydney... Have fun on your trip. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 01:47, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
A-Class review for Bijeljina massacre needs attention
A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for Bijeljina massacre; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! Cdtew (talk) 02:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
A-Class review for Croatian special police order of battle in 1991–95 needs attention
A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for Croatian special police order of battle in 1991–95; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! Cdtew (talk) 02:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
A-Class review for Glina massacres needs attention
A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for Glina massacres; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! Cdtew (talk) 02:43, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
A-Class review for Japanese battleship Asahi needs attention
A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for Japanese battleship Asahi; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! Cdtew (talk) 02:44, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- I've had a go at this one, need at least one more reviewer if someone is looking for a way of contributing. Thanks. Anotherclown (talk) 22:28, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
New article
I just stumbled upon a newly-created article, Public opinion of the military. I'm not sure what to think of it, nor do I know if we have other articles that already cover the subject. - BilCat (talk) 10:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- ...I want to say I've seen this at AfD in the past, but I can't find it with an archive search. - The Bushranger One ping only 10:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- seems to be current public opinion of US armed forces with a side of British armed forces at the moment. Early hours yet and there doesn't seem to be a particular POV. If it was expanded in time period, covered other nations, could it be useful?GraemeLeggett (talk) 10:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Flag matter on ANI
Can some of you have a look at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:ProudIrishAspie_and_Infobox_flags? The issue is the addition of (problematic) flags to infoboxes of military biographies. Your input is greatly appreciated--and at some point a clarification at WP:INFOBOXFLAG should be considered. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 14:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
- His edits have been undone, but there is still a lot of cruft to deal with. WP:MILMOS says: When dealing with biographical infobox templates, the most common practice is to use flag icons to indicate allegiance or branch of service, but not place of birth or death. However, there remains considerable disagreement regarding the appropriateness of flags in such cases, so editors should not regard this as a universal rule. It is unfortunate that there is no consensus on this. It would be easy to set off an WP:AWB run to remove the flags. But on a related note, is there consensus against icon-sized decorative images next to "Rank" infobox fields? See Braxton Bragg for one example. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:41, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- From my perspective, it appears that iconography in general is more prevalent in US military articles (biographies at least) than in Commonwealth ones. US ones seem rife with medal farms, as well as rank/unit insignia and flags of allegiance/service in the infobox. Many Commonwealth articles include flags of allegiance/service in the infobox and stop there, so I would say the consensus for Commonwealth bios is not to use rank icons. I stopped using even allegiance/service flag icons in my articles on Australian military figures and RAAF units about a year ago, and I'm not the only one who's dispensed with them. As I said in the ANI thread, the issue for me is not simply imagecruft but the risk of inaccuracy in the flag designs employed. IMO, simpler to drop them as a rule and only employ them if/when a clear case can be made. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:19, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Infobox military unit
I created a version of Template:Infobox military unit that is built on the Infobox module; from the testcases the output seems identical.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 21:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
WWII escort group names
I was pottering about with B-2 Escort Group (Royal Navy) and I was struck by a couple of thoughts
- the article name is unnecessarily disambiguated - I can't find any similar named articles
- the word order seems wrong, "Escort Group B2" being more natural
- Hyphens are uncommon in British designations
I was able to find a few books in google (eg The Defeat of the German U-boats: The Battle of the Atlantic), and an item on the RN website, that use "Escort Group B2" for this unit. One of the authors of a source for the article uses "Escort Group B.2" in their other works [1]. I have found hyphen form in "Escort Group B-2" [2] Anyone have any thoughts or sources on the matter? GraemeLeggett (talk) 23:29, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
- "Escort Group B2" seems logical to me. One would search for the words "escort group" first I would think, assuming there were more than one escort group. "B2" sort of narrows it down to that particular group. I notice that in the several references I have on convoys themselves they are referred to as "Convoy HX150" or "Convoy SC129" with a couple of references using the style "Convoy HX 150" using a space; none used a dash.
- Using the article title "Escort Group B2" would square it with the Wikipedia articles listing convoys, i.e. Convoy HX 156. I would say that a change in the article title would be justified. Cuprum17 (talk) 01:09, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well I've been Bold, and it's now at Escort Group B2. GraemeLeggett (talk) 22:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- There are more of them linked from Mid-Ocean Escort Force e.g. B-6 Escort Group (Royal Navy) and B-7 Escort Group (Royal Navy). Hamish59 (talk) 10:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- I'll give it another day or so, to see if anyone flags some concern, and then I'll look at those as well. The Mid-Ocean Escort Force article lists them in "Escort Group letter number" style, but as Wikipedia article I didn't want to accept that as gospel for the name format. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:57, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- There are more of them linked from Mid-Ocean Escort Force e.g. B-6 Escort Group (Royal Navy) and B-7 Escort Group (Royal Navy). Hamish59 (talk) 10:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well I've been Bold, and it's now at Escort Group B2. GraemeLeggett (talk) 22:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
AfC submission
And another one. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 17:17, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- This certainly looks non-notable, but just checking. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 13:29, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Small caps for codenames
There was a question on the main WP:MOS talk page here about the use of caps or small caps for codenames. From what I have read it is quite common for caps to be used for codnames in most military history books. Should we follow that example? CombatWombat42 (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- I think the history books are just using the same tradition as in the primary sources, following from military tradition of giving written orders with certain words in capitals for emphasis. Since the average reader is sat comfortably in front of monitor and not trying to read instructions while under shellfire the emphasis is unnecessary. And any instance handled as per WP:ALLCAPS. GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- This is another example, I think, of where the "common sense for common reader" rule comes into play. It makes for a much easier read if the caps aren't there. —Ed!(talk) 00:50, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- When I read them, such as HAVE DOUGHNUT, or similar, they're in caps probably because of tradition, I agree, however, when I use them in articles, it's generally "Have Doughnut", as it's a proper noun. Bwmoll3 (talk) 03:41, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Some publishers use small caps for a variety of things, but MOS recommends against them. Text in WP is meant to travel outside WP, and it's unlikely that any special formatting would be preserved; also, if we encouraged small caps, editors would use them to give special emphasis to whatever they wanted to emphasize. There's basically no chance that everyone would follow usage recommended by style guides, and we'd have a big mess, including POV fights over correct fonts. - Dank (push to talk) 05:03, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- When I read them, such as HAVE DOUGHNUT, or similar, they're in caps probably because of tradition, I agree, however, when I use them in articles, it's generally "Have Doughnut", as it's a proper noun. Bwmoll3 (talk) 03:41, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- This is another example, I think, of where the "common sense for common reader" rule comes into play. It makes for a much easier read if the caps aren't there. —Ed!(talk) 00:50, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Publishers will have their own manuals of style: Wikipedia has WP:MOS which discourages the use of all caps and small caps for emphasis. I see no reason for a special exemption here. pablo 09:40, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. No need for them. It's like capitalising rank abbreviations. The US Army and US Navy do it as a matter of course, but that doesn't mean we should. It looks weird. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:01, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Agree caps large or small should be avoided. An additional factor is consistency even when they are used. I have seen OPERATION HAVE DOUGHNUT and Operation HAVE DOUGHNUT. Also, even if not Wikilinked in the article, if links are added, using all caps would require an uneccesary pipe. --Lineagegeek (talk) 12:36, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- I recall a discussion on this some years ago for Canadian military operation articles in which we decided to standardise on title case. Andrew Gray (talk) 20:54, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- Clancy normally seems to pay some attention to such details, and he uses small caps for code-names in this non-fiction work (at least): "...mission for the second attempt at rescuing the hostages, code-named HONEY BADGER..." (Clancy, Tom; Stiner, General Carl (Ret.); Koltz, Tony (February 2003). Shadow Warriors: Inside the Special Forces. The Berkley Publishing Group. p. 9. ISBN 9780425188316.)
- Also, there is at least one other exception that isn't in the MOS but is widely-used here and elsewhere (and should be added): the D- and L- prefixes of optical isomers like L-DOPA. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 10:36, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thoughts on my comment above, Alan? - Dank (push to talk) 13:12, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Spanish conquest of Petén FA nom
Hi all. I've just posted Spanish conquest of Petén as a Featured Article Candidate and invite any comments on its review page. Thanks, Simon Burchell (talk) 21:33, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Where in the world is Camp des Garrigues?
Is Camp des Garrigues related to Quartier Captaine Danjou? Hcobb (talk) 22:19, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Located here per the French Wikipedia. Looks to be in a different area than QCD. W. B. Wilson (talk) 17:58, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Help with military terminology
Can someone please help disambiguate the term echelon in the context of: December 1941- His echelon is destroyed by enemy aircraft (Anatoly_Yakovlevich_Taranetz#Notable_dates.5B1.5D). Thanks in advance, XOttawahitech (talk) 03:15, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- It appears to be a reference to Эшелон (военное дело), which was a specific type of operational formation in Soviet military doctrine. I'm not sure that we have any article that really covers the topic; Soviet deep battle discusses it at a high level, but it probably wouldn't make sense as a disambiguation target. Kirill [talk] 04:34, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- I don’t think the meaning from combined-arms doctrine makes much sense in the context. According to the source (p.12, just above the ray photo), he was in transit to the front, so I would translate ru:wikt:эшелон as something like column (formation), convoy, or train. FWIW Google Translate offered the last.—Odysseus1479 05:44, 6 November 2013 (UTC) edited 05:49, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- In "Western Terminology" echelon refers to a battle formation or posture; i.e. staggered sequence of bodies of troops - in "Eastern Terminology" (Refer Glantz and also Erickson) it refers to battle groupings - i.e. 1st echelon is a combat echelon, second echelon is tasked to exploit gaps and penetrations created by first echelon, third echelon is reserve (formally - a force with no predetermined mission) and may be deployed to further exploit gaps or to reinforce forward echelons where no penetration has been achieved. I suspect this is a reference to the latter "Eastern definition" where his formation (probably 2nd or 3rd echelon) was destroyed.
- The disambiguation / definition page for echelon should be updated to reflect this second military meaning as well! Farawayman (talk) 10:58, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- We shouldn't forget "rear echelon" in western terminology, although I'm not sure I've come across a complementary "combat echelon". British army units in WWII had an "F echelon" (F for fighting) plus two support echelons, A & B. I suggest therefore that a little bit more than a disambig note would be required to cover the eastern and western schools properly. Monstrelet (talk) 18:51, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Battle of Canton (March and May 1841)
Going through the "Stub" articles. Came across Battle of Canton (March 1841) and Battle of Canton (May 1841). Should both articles be merged together as one? Adamdaley (talk) 10:30, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
2nd call for review of List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients (C)
Hi everyone. This is my second attempt to draw editors to this review. This is also my second attempt at getting this list up to FLC. The first review went stale because of lack of reviewers. Thanks MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:26, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
D Battery Royal Horse Artillery
I've just found this article: D Battery Royal Horse Artillery, it hasn't been edited by a human since 14 November 2012. It's quite unique. Gavbadger (talk) 23:39, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- It seems to have been cut right down for copyright concerns, and the editor/s never bothered to redo.Jim Sweeney (talk) 07:53, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Any Admins watching ?
Hi looking for help returning an article to a correct form of name. It was the 11th Hussars which was moved, to create a disamb page, to 11th Hussar Regiment (United Kingdom) a form of title never used by this regiment. 11th Hussars was a diminutive name the correct full name being 11th Hussars (Prince Albert's Own) but when I tried to revert to this version I unnoticed had a typo missed the S off hussars. So its now called 11th Hussar (Prince Albert's Own). I tried the technical move page but for some reason it would not accept the name used by the article now, with the typo. Brought this here as being a military problem, may be easier for and Admin member to understand. Hope this all makes sense. Jim Sweeney (talk) 07:49, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- I have moved the British regiment back to 11th Hussars, as this was the only regiment officially known by this name and almost all the links refer to it. I have moved the disambiguation page to 11th Hussars (disambiguation), although 11th Hussar Regiment would be an alternative, as that was the name used by the other regiments. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:50, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for that.Jim Sweeney (talk) 14:31, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
new article: Economic history of World War I
I have started a new article on Economic history of World War I and have begun with a working bibliography and a few entries. I plan to add a lot more in the next few days -- some excerpts from existing articles and some new material. I got started by reading up on John Maynard Keynes, the British economist who handled financing for Britain & most of its allies. Comments and advice is most welcome! Rjensen (talk) 13:40, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- A great topic for an article! Hchc2009 (talk) 13:23, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed ... your articles are fantastic, Dr. Jensen. - Dank (push to talk) 14:30, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
London Gazette (also Belfast and Edinburgh) website changes
The London Gazette has recently launched a new beta website, using the new url http://www.thegazette.co.uk/ - this will also incorporate the Belfast and Edinburgh publications. As many of you will know this is a vital resource for tracking commissions and promotions in the British armed forces, and also honours and decorations for those serving with British Empire/Commonwealth forces in both world wars, so it is a widely cited resource within MILHIST supported articles. The intention is that the old sites will be shut down. Hopefully, most references to these publications use the specific template:London Gazette (and the Belfast and Edinburgh equivalents), so we will be able to maintain those easily by simply updating the url stem that the templates use to build the full url, but some article may simply incorporate straight links within the standard cite news or cite web templates and the like. Those lilnks will be broken once the old site shuts down. David Underdown (talk) 16:04, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Occupations vs. careers
Thanks to those who helped move Military occupations to Military careers. I'll work on incoming links to the former so it can be redirected to Military occupation as a usual {{R from plural}}. There will still be category-space cleanup to be done, so please share your thoughts at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 November 7#Category:Military occupation. --BDD (talk) 23:37, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Unidentified World War I Unit
I have a photo of a SPAD XVI, probably of the US Air Service the First Army Observation Group. However, I can't identify the unit emblem shown on the fuselage. Can anyone assist, please? Thank you in advance Bwmoll3 (talk) 00:14, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- It is not among the squadron fuselage markings approved in November 1918 by the AEF. That would narrow it to either a squadron that had no combat credit or a headquarters. I tend to the latter (with a leaning toward Air Service, AEF only because I have seen a photo of Billy Mitchell by a similarly -- but not identically -- marked aircraft).--Lineagegeek (talk) 13:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Created Category:Targeted killing
I've gone ahead and created Category:Targeted killing, a category to encompass articles related to the topic of Targeted killing.
Suggestions for additional articles to add into the category would be appreciated, feel free to add them yourself or suggest them at Category talk:Targeted killing.
Cheers,
— Cirt (talk) 01:58, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Created disambig for Targeted killing
Created disambig for Targeted killing:
Can someone more knowledgeable and experienced with disambig pages help with the formatting and classification?
Thank you,
— Cirt (talk) 03:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Glenn Defense Marine Asia
I'll create Glenn Defense Marine Asia seven hours from now, unless somebody else jumps in first. I've added links to the talk page. Hcobb (talk) 20:47, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- You've already created Glenn Marine Group, which has been Prodded once, and will likely be AFDed soon. Creating another stub about basically the same issue (bribery), with little additional content, is probably not a good idea. The main article can easily hold any content on subsidiaries for the time being. - BilCat (talk) 13:04, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Stub articles
I've gone through a few thousand articles and have placed a few here: User:Adamdaley/Articles needing assessment. Anyone can have a go at assessing them. Adamdaley (talk) 03:26, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Ottoman Turkish Empire wording dispute
Hi all can any interested editors comment on a dispute at Talk:ANZAC Mounted Division#Ottoman Empire/Turkey. It started by using the term Turkish, as per all the sources used, for the forces of the Ottoman Turkish Empire. An explanatory note is included in the article explaining why Turkish is used. However one editor changed the words from Turkish to Ottoman, then acknowledged there was a consensus, if only a small one, for Turkish. Since then they have decided that using Turkish is against W:POV policy. Even when the Ottoman Empire article uses the same terminology. To stop a potential edit war and content dispute can more editors contribute to the discussion. Thanks.Jim Sweeney (talk) 11:31, 10 November 2013 (UTC)