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And one simple question - Piotrus, what bachelor degree did you receive. I'm just curios. If you do not want to answer, it's up to you. I still feel, that you do not have a clue in humanitarian/social sciences. I know, that you have a right to ban me for this question. Although I've already stated my qualification and limits of it. Can you do it also? --[[User:Lokyz|Lokyz]] 21:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC) |
And one simple question - Piotrus, what bachelor degree did you receive. I'm just curios. If you do not want to answer, it's up to you. I still feel, that you do not have a clue in humanitarian/social sciences. I know, that you have a right to ban me for this question. Although I've already stated my qualification and limits of it. Can you do it also? --[[User:Lokyz|Lokyz]] 21:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:Dear Lokyz. I find it disappointing to see that instead of discussing the content problem you prefer to violate [[WP:NPA]]. But your behaviour is your choice. My qualifications are described on my userpage, which (as my every signature) contains also my real name. I will not speak about your qualifications, which I cannot read about on your userpage, nor could I verify based on your choice to remain anonimous.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus| Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 02:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 02:24, 14 September 2006
Naming of towns
- This section moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lithuania.
I have a question and a request of you. Please note that Augustów notes Augustavas, Sejny notes Sejny, . Szczecin will note German Settin, Cieszyn will note German Teschen and Czech Těšín, Białystok will note Belarusian Беласток (Biełastok), Lithuanian Balstogė, and even Yiddish ביאַליסטאָק. All Polish cities follow the proposed Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), which allows the use in lead of other well known and popular names, and there are no conflicts if sb want's to add a (used, popular, historical) name. And non only Polish cities follow that rule: Latvian Daugavpils has Russian and Lithuanian, Jelgava has German, Lithuanian, Russian and Polish spellings, Salaspils notes Polish Kircholm, Belarusian Hrodna notes both Polish Grodno and Lithuanian Gardinas, Niasviž lists Russian, Lithuanian and Polish too, Russian Klushino has Polish Kłuszyn.... This is even followed outside of our little part of the world: Strasbourg (French) has German Straßburg. Therefore one would reasonably expect that if a city was called with a Polish name for several centuries (as most Lithuanian cities were in the times of the PLC) and that name would be relativly popular in English publication (Google Print search) we would note that in the article; same with German or Belarusian or Russian or other applicable names. Yet in vain one can look for a mention of Wilno in Vilnius, Troki in Trakai, or Kowno in Kaunas, Kłajpeda in Klaipėda, even through the Polish names are commonly used in English texts about history of that region ([1], and especially compare [2] vs [3]). I understand capitals are a special case, and the reference to Names of European cities in different languages is good style, I ask for nothing more in this case. But please tell me (this is my question) why are Polish, Belarusian, German and other names often removed from articles about Lithuanian cities ([4], [5], [6]). No edit summaries, no explanation - just removal from the article any mention that it used to have a Polish (or other names). A cursory Google Print search will show that often those names are very popular, thus they should be used if for no other reason that to avoid confusion when a person unfamiliar with geography and history of Europe types, let's say, Troki, into our search engines and finds himself at Trakai with no explanation for name change... Therefore my request is to think if having foreign names is really so irritiating, and if you could yourself restore relevant names to articles that are now missing them. And please note I am not asking for anything exceptional, but rather for what is normal on Wiki - and note that the glaring difference between the Wiki customs and practice in Lithuanian cities simply looks strange and raises some eyebrows. Thank you, -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- My oppinion is presented in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Lithuania/Conflict resolution and it is thought to be clear for everybody. I support attempts to remove alternative names from the lead (except some specific cases) in general. This way, i support the same action when it's done by, say , Dr. Dan. I also see the bad sides of the remowing, especially when alternative information isn't inserted in exchange. Just one thing may be seen to be strange here: The same Dr. Dan has evidently different reasons, removing the names, than the mine. His reasons seem to concern a keeping of equality between Poland and Lithuania or something similar. Looking formally every reason to participate in the Wikipedia is welcomed but not every action. Looking however more deeply the reasons, that are far from the goals of Wikipedia, often raise something like barriers in our work. It's impossible to segregate users, but we can see some results of such "pollution". The whole month we discuss complexes of the opponent more and more, not taking in account many things that are important here in Wikipedia. By the way, our complexes are personal not collective, especially when not everybody in our teams is a Lithuanian / a Pole. Linas Lituanus 16:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
P. S. I support moving this discussion to some other place. Linas Lituanus
Well, let's move it away, because it seems this gonna take some time to discuss this matter, and it is gonna simply disturb normal work rythm of a project talk page.--Lokyz 16:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- As I believe it is not releated to the conflict issue (this is an enyclopedic content issue), I don't think it should be moved; this is an important issue that should be debated by the members of the Lithuanian WikiProject (as it was some of their members who have been most active removing the alternative names and thus creating an exception to the Wiki customs).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- at least mine answer you will find in different location (sooner or later), I also urge other editors answer there also. M.K. 17:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I on the other hand would support having the alternative (including foreign, where applicable) names mentioned in the lead. I think it is informative and does no harm. It would be of course different if someone tried to rename the article from say Vilnius to Wilno. I, too, would be interested to learn why the foreign names are removed from the articles of Lithuanian towns. --Lysytalk 17:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- Lysy, take a better look in Vilnius article lead. M.K. 17:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- Sincerely, I would like to know the answer to the question posed. Better understanding could result in easier co-operation. Maybe you need to ask the question yourself ? Sadly, no answer is an answer as well. --Lysytalk 18:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- Lysy!!!!!!! Take a look here and also here . About answer as I said I will deliver it, do not doubt about it. M.K. 18:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but I don't see why you're asking me to "take a better look in Vilnius article lead" or to look at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Lithuania/Conflict_resolution, I would probably understand you better if you were more straightforward. --Lysytalk 19:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- Lysy!!!!!!! Take a look here and also here . About answer as I said I will deliver it, do not doubt about it. M.K. 18:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- M.K., please note that I wrote that Vilnius solution, as capitals are usually an exception, is satisfactory; I am more interested in reasons you removed those names from other cities.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 00:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Sincerely, I would like to know the answer to the question posed. Better understanding could result in easier co-operation. Maybe you need to ask the question yourself ? Sadly, no answer is an answer as well. --Lysytalk 18:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- Lysy, take a better look in Vilnius article lead. M.K. 17:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- As an outsider, I would like to say that I agree with Lysy and Piotrus. I find alternate names particularly interesting and disapprove of their removal. Olessi 01:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Olessi, forget the "insider" and "outsider" labels. I often agree with Lysy and P.P.(Prokonsul Piotrus), just not here. Big deal, right! Due to my involvement of intensive activity at work (the psychiatric ward, ha), I've been derelict in doing my Wikipedia duty. I am also very active in trying to change U.S. policy regarding our absurd involvement in Iraq. That's taking up a lot of my time, and money too. Always do a job well, I say! As a chief proponent of not having these various names in the leads of the geographical toponyms in question, please bear with me. I intend to address this in intense detail to all of you, very soon. And here, is as good as any place. Dr. Dan 01:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Dear Dan, could you do me a favour and remind me where is it that we often agree?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Piotrus, now you are not being constructive, and this will not resolve the conflict. Juraune 07:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- I, too, think this is not constructive, but let us stay focused. It's not about a conflict but an attempt to explain/understand the background of certain edit behaviour. Of course I have my own explanation, but I would really like to hear what the Lithuanian editors think about why do they remove the alternative place names from the articles' leads. So far this behaviour seems rather hostile and not constructive. I think explaining (and hopefully understanding) is a better way to move forward than revert-warring. --Lysytalk 10:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Off topic again: If somebody is interested in ongoing Days of Lithuania in Poland, here is the programme: http://www.dnilitwy2006.lt/en/index2.php
- I think it's important, when one person claims neutrality, to verify this claim, if it can be disputed - and as recently I cannot recall where Dr.Dan agreed with me on anything (other then some generalities) I would like him to show me some other examples. Perhaps it may came as a suprise to one of us and help us clarify our relation. Although i agree this is OT and the main question at hand, currently ignored, is at the top.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 13:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Never seen Dr. Dan claiming that he is neutral, nobody discussing here is neutral, the neutral ones do not care, if it is one way or another. Piotrus, please do not try to solve the conflict by personally attacking people that you might not like recently. There is too much political propaganda against certain nationalities or countries, be it small or large, and too little common sense. Keeping the lists of names in foreign languages bring too much revert wars and dissatisfied parties, who should be mentioned first, who should not be mentioned at all. It happened in the past, it will happen in the future when the new editors will join. Well, solve this - which name, Russian or Polish should be mentioned first? If Russian name is mentioned, shouldn't Belarusian name be mentioned instead in Eastern Lithuania? Why should Russian or Polish names be mentioned, while the Jewish name is left out, and the majority of Lithuanian cities population were Jewish in 19-20 century. How about Karaite names, why should we mention names in the languages of the biggest countries of Europe only? If we mention Russian, Polish, why not Swedish, Danish or German? In Samogitian part of Lithuania Samogitian names should have priority over Polish, or should Jewish name take the precedence over all of them? Don't you see the problems your desire to have Lithuanian city names written in your native tong everywhere, where Poland (PLC) once was, creates? I would be for mentioning and writting Polish names of the cities that have significant Polish population or for keeping the list of the names in all other relevant languages someplace else. Juraune 15:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- I understand the arguments but ... the really important part of the question, as I understood it, was why something that works for Poland, France or other countries cannot work for Lithuania ? I'm not trying to pretend I'm being naive or trolling here and as I said I believe I know at least part of the answer but I would not like to suggest anything and would rather appreciate hearing the statement of the problem from Lithuanian editors. I hope it would be helpful, and maybe also an eye-opener for editors, who, like me, insist on mentioning the other (Polish, German, Belarusian as applicable) names as well. --Lysytalk 15:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- I, too, think this is not constructive, but let us stay focused. It's not about a conflict but an attempt to explain/understand the background of certain edit behaviour. Of course I have my own explanation, but I would really like to hear what the Lithuanian editors think about why do they remove the alternative place names from the articles' leads. So far this behaviour seems rather hostile and not constructive. I think explaining (and hopefully understanding) is a better way to move forward than revert-warring. --Lysytalk 10:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Here's my point - most of them are not really Polish or Russian name, it is phonetic transcription. if we would denote them as such, I'd have no problems for using them. There are few exceptions, of course - like Klaipėda (Memel). As a sidenote to Halibut, everywhere where it is possible I do use proper names, not Lithuanised - be it Schumacher, Kubica or Wałęsa (sorry, diacritics even with modern publishing software in most cases still is a problem). Although I am still convinced that Radziwiłł should be called Radvila or Giedroyć - Giedraitis (at least until PLC).
- And yes, Lysy i think I know, what you do assume: it is really unpleasant for most of Lithuanians to be reminded of Polish suppression of Lithuanian language and domination of Polish language. Another one of main points is that using older spellings of the city name simply stops usage of proper Lithuanian name and encourages people to use them, instead of "modern Lithuanian nationalistic interpretation". This later one formula, used by Halibutt (ok, ok, I do put words in his mouth, although I think it's quite obvious) was the main reason why I did remove Troki from Trakai article. After dispute erupted, I'm ready for compromise and strict rules to be established - especially if formulas like "modern", "now-" would be avoided.
- And some more: This would be a long linguistic and phonologic discussion and I do not think anyone (including myself) have proper qualifications. Another sidenote for Halibutt - your arguments in Laurynas Gucevičius article are entering a supplemental Historical discipline called diplomatics territory. This discipline studies what form of language, what terms and what case are most used in documents of certain periods.
- Even after hearing course in University on this, I feel not qualified enough to state anything on this matter, and you still insist you're right. A professor you simply called "some guy" is one of most prominent in this field in Lithuania and even in Poland, that (hopefully) is rethinking endecja heritage.
- --Lokyz 16:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you, Lokyz (for the sake of simplicity, I'll try to stick to town names so excuse my ignoring Radziwiłł and Gucevičius for now). Certainly, wording like "Troki, now Trakai" is unacceptable. One of the reasons why I insist on having the Polish names mentioned is that, putting aside all political connotations, it is part of our common history and culture and we should not pretend otherwise. And it's not only that Poland played important role in Lithuanian culture, but obviously also the other way round. So it happened that Polish language dominated (at least in writing). So what ? My feeling is that because of the recent history (what happened between the wars, then Soviet occupation and then the behaviour of Polish minority in Lithuania in 1990s) and particularly because political propaganda and education (of the Soviet system but not only) almost anything "Polish" had certain negative connotations in Lithuania. This is changing recently, but slowly of course. So, if someone mentions a Polish name of a Lithuanian town, a Lithuanian will immediately hear the message like "it should be Polish", or "it was Polish" even if the person using the Polish name had no such intentions. I can relate to this, as a somewhat similar situation was in Poland, where until 1990s many people (again because of our education system) did not really know or care that Poznań was Posen etc. I think this is really wrong and we should respect the past. I think we managed to do this on wikipedia at least to some extent. Of course I am annoyed when some German POV pushers tend to change every occurrence of Olsztyn to Allenstein, but I think that in the article's lead the German (and other, where appropriate) names should be mentioned. Take a look at Bydgoszcz or Toruń and you will see that nobody minds having German names in the leads there, even if the oppression that Poles suffered from Germany is not comparable to anything Poles ever did in Lithuania. So, again, by mentioning Polish name in the lead I'm not trying to signify that the Lithuanian town was or "should be" Polish (perhaps it never was). But the name may be important to the culture or history of one or both of our nations. Personally, I don't see why this Polish form of the name should be ever repeated in the article's body (although the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) says otherwise). I wonder what way of putting this would be more acceptable. How about "Trakai (Polish form: Troki)" or simply "Trakai (Polish: Troki)" ? --Lysytalk 18:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- "Trakai (Polish form: Troki)" would be acceptable although (Polish transcribtion: Troki) would be more desirable. By this truce would be set for long, and I think most of the Lithuanian editors would accept this. Anyway this is worth further discussions.--Lokyz 19:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think "transcription" would be disputable and in my opinion incorrect. This would mean that both Polish and Lithuanian names are pronounced the same way, but only written down differently. I would be glad to accept "Polish form", but we need to wait a bit to gain wider support of both Lithuanian and Polish editors, and, once agreed, we would have all to stand firmly for that and defend against any violations from either "side". Let's hear what the others think. --Lysytalk 19:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC) P.S. I still intend to try working on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) but I'm sure it will take time. It's a miracle that everyone involved accepts the guidelines there, but that also means that it got complicated and nobody is really 100% happy with it. --Lysytalk 19:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- I am not a linguist, but we have a common way on Wiki to deal with: templates like {{lang-pl}} or {{lang-lt}} direct readers to articles on Polish language or Lithuanian language, respectively, so the form we should be used would be Trakai (Polish: Troki). As for all 'cultural' arguments, I still fail to see why the above would not be acceptable if Suwałki (Lithuanian: Suvalkai) or Gdańsk (German: Danzig) are perfectly agreeable by all. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Well, in fact I did not mind "Lublinas" and "Gdanskas" which someone added to Lublin and Gdańsk, even if it seemed remotely relevant. I think that "Polish form" instead of "Polish" would signify that the original name was Lithuanian (which may not be always obvious). It seems to be somehow important for Lithuanians to stress that. My understanding is that this is important for Lithuanian national identity, otherwise it might seem that all Lithuanian culture had Polish roots (while in reality it was only Polish language and the cultural heritage was mixed, as e.g. the Gucevičius case proves). --Lysytalk 21:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yup, Lysy - you are rigt at the least. It is - even as Lithuanian nation has diminished, even as there are are some assumptions that we ceaseed to exist, some of us still carry tolerance and Pride being what we are. (even without stalking others with rightfully deserved COA)--Lokyz 21:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
And one simple question - Piotrus, what bachelor degree did you receive. I'm just curios. If you do not want to answer, it's up to you. I still feel, that you do not have a clue in humanitarian/social sciences. I know, that you have a right to ban me for this question. Although I've already stated my qualification and limits of it. Can you do it also? --Lokyz 21:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Dear Lokyz. I find it disappointing to see that instead of discussing the content problem you prefer to violate WP:NPA. But your behaviour is your choice. My qualifications are described on my userpage, which (as my every signature) contains also my real name. I will not speak about your qualifications, which I cannot read about on your userpage, nor could I verify based on your choice to remain anonimous.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 02:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)