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::::::::::::harlan, the problem is that the Israeli Supreme Court case refers only to isolated, anomalous settlements like Elon Moreh. while you are attempting to apply their language to mainstream settlements like Ariel. This is what happens when editors try to battle it out to get involved in larger issues. The Supreme Court never said it was taking a position on all land occupied by Israel since 1967. --[[User:Sm8900|Steve, Sm8900]] ([[User talk:Sm8900|talk]]) 13:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC) |
::::::::::::harlan, the problem is that the Israeli Supreme Court case refers only to isolated, anomalous settlements like Elon Moreh. while you are attempting to apply their language to mainstream settlements like Ariel. This is what happens when editors try to battle it out to get involved in larger issues. The Supreme Court never said it was taking a position on all land occupied by Israel since 1967. --[[User:Sm8900|Steve, Sm8900]] ([[User talk:Sm8900|talk]]) 13:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::Elon Moreh's importance stems from its requirement of declared military necessity by the military administrator to bring it into line with international law. That's the keystone on which settlement legality rests in domestic law although it's not an argument any country besides Israel is buying(perhaps because civilian population centers in possible conflict areas serve no fathomable military purpose but I digress). We could present the the FMA stuff (it's notable) but most of it has nothing to do with the legal justification approved by the Israeli judiciary. No other government/legal body buys either argument so they are both equally fringe views =X I'm also thoroughly confused by what context we are wanting to put this information (the settlement article? the short sentence in each settlement article?). [[User:Sol Goldstone|Sol]] ([[User talk:Sol Goldstone|talk]]) 17:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC) |
::::::::::::::Elon Moreh's importance stems from its requirement of declared military necessity by the military administrator to bring it into line with international law. That's the keystone on which settlement legality rests in domestic law although it's not an argument any country besides Israel is buying(perhaps because civilian population centers in possible conflict areas serve no fathomable military purpose but I digress). We could present the the FMA stuff (it's notable) but most of it has nothing to do with the legal justification approved by the Israeli judiciary. No other government/legal body buys either argument so they are both equally fringe views =X I'm also thoroughly confused by what context we are wanting to put this information (the settlement article? the short sentence in each settlement article?). [[User:Sol Goldstone|Sol]] ([[User talk:Sol Goldstone|talk]]) 17:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::If the Israeli view is more complicated then legal/illegal, then it will be to long to have it in all settlements articles. Sol Goldstone, can you summarize the Israeli view for me? Because I have read everything above but I still don't get it. --[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 18:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC) |
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==[[Stop the Islamization of America]] needs own article?== |
==[[Stop the Islamization of America]] needs own article?== |
Revision as of 18:04, 26 October 2010
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Guidelines: Current Article Issue Discussion
This page is a subpage of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Plese read that page before posting here. You may bring specific dispute issues on articles, categories or templates here. Note other help on reliable sources, point of views, biographies etc. might be found at an appropriate notice board. (See Noticeboard list.) Our discussions are moderated and incivility and other problematic postings will be deleted. Moderators also will move postings about problems with, or suggestions for, the project in general to the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration talk page. They will archive resolved or dated issues.
Jerusalem Post. Israeli-Palestinian conflict rages on Wikipedia
"Israeli-Palestinian conflict rages on Wikipedia". May 16, 2010 article. Jerusalem Post:.
When I have looked at Israeli-Palestinian (IP) articles I notice an overall pro-Israeli POV instead of an NPOV expressed. Same as in the mainstream U.S. media overall. And then there is this Wikipedia IP history:
Israeli Foreign Ministry's organized campaign on Wikipedia.
Please see:
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive278#Organised POV-pushing campaign on the way?
- WikiEN-l. Conflict of Interest and lobbyists for foreign governments.
- Hasbara Fellowships Newsletter for May 31, 2007. Section titled "Wikipedia.org"
- About Hasbara Fellowships - IsraelActivism.com
Related administrator arbitration, actions, incidents, etc.:
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Statement re Wikilobby campaign
DMI Comparison between Anonymous Palestinian and Israeli Wikipedia Edits.
Using WikiScanner the Digital Methods Initiative (DMI) site has an analysis called:
Israeli anonymous edits outnumbered Palestinian anonymous edits several times over.
And then there is the unresolved problem of sockpuppets everywhere. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:54, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- The comments after this article include an appeal for readers to emulate the Runtshit vandal (and one comment purportedly by me, but actually by the same stalker). This is likely to lead to a spate of vandalism; keep alert! RolandR (talk) 20:13, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Israel, Palestine, and the United Nations article discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard
This article has a systematic bias that advocates the views of one party, Israel, to the near exclusion of the other listed parties - the United Nations and Palestine. The article has been tagged for POV by more than one editor, but the application of the template has been reverted on each occasion. Very well sourced information contained in a neutral narrative that reflects customary law; the official policies of the United Nations; the official policies of the League of Nations; and the views of Palestine have been deleted.
See the discussion at [1] harlan (talk) 05:24, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Category:Businesses believed to be owned by Hamas
See Category talk:Businesses believed to be owned by Hamas Sean.hoyland - talk 08:05, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Yavne/Yibna
There is a discussion going on, on the Yavne talk page about the desirability of merging the pages of Yavne and Yibna. I would welcome your opinions. --Sreifa (talk) 10:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
New Haaretz article: "The right's latest weapon: 'Zionist editing' on Wikipedia"
Many new anti-neutral editors may be showing up here soon (or already has) --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:39, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for bringing the article to everybody's attention. This venture isn't likely to succeed. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:57, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
We may have a live one. Unomi (talk) 22:10, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Guardian - Rachel Shabi - Wikipedia editing courses launched by Zionist groups, 18 August 2010:
And on Wikipedia, they believe that there is much work to do.
Take the page on Israel, for a start: "The map of Israel is portrayed without the Golan heights or Judea and Samaria," said Bennett, referring to the annexed Syrian territory and the West Bank area occupied by Israel in 1967.
Another point of contention is the reference to Jerusalem as the capital of Israel – a status that is constantly altered on Wikipedia.
Other pages subject to constant re-editing include one titled Goods allowed/banned for import into Gaza – which is now being considered for deletion – and a page on the Palestinian territories.
Then there is the problem of what to call certain neighbourhoods. "Is Ariel a city or a settlement?" asks Shaked of the area currently described by Wikipedia as "an Israeli settlement and a city in the central West Bank." That question is the subject of several thousand words of heated debate on a Wikipedia discussion thread.
The idea, says Shaked and her colleauges, is not to storm in, cause havoc and get booted out – the Wikipedia editing community is sensitive, consensus-based and it takes time to build trust.
"We learned what not to do: don't jump into deep waters immediately, don't be argumentative, realise that there is a semi-democratic community out there, realise how not to get yourself banned," says Yisrael Medad, one of the course participants, from Shiloh.
Is that Shiloh in the occupied West Bank? "No," he sighs, patiently. "That's Shiloh in the Binyamin region across the Green Line, or in territories described as disputed."
One Jerusalem-based Wikipedia editor, who doesn't want to be named, said that publicising the initiative might not be such a good idea. "Going public in the past has had a bad effect," she says. "There is a war going on and unfortunately the way to fight it has to be underground."
← ZScarpia 23:57, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Something must be done about this. These are giant organized meatpuppet groups. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Another article here: [4] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:43, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- "The goal is to take part in public relations [for Israel] in English." ... hmmmmmm. ← ZScarpia 09:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
There is some kind of guide released here: "Wikipedia Course Booklet" [5] can someone who knows hebrew please translate it? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:43, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I have downloaded it and had a brief look; but it is 18 pages long, so I don't propose to translate it all. I have read the half-page about English Wikipedia, which is remarkably anodyne, just pointing out the rules, and the differences from Hebrew Wikipedia. I'll try to read the whole thing tomorrow, and see if there is anything worth noting; but my first impression is that they haven't put anything damaging down on paper. Really, we need on of the 100-plus people who attended their seminar to spill the beans about what was actually said there. RolandR (talk) 23:01, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- As I wrote on the main collaboration talk page, if the CAMERA article can note their organizing people to edit wikipedia (see here), why not a note in the Israeli settlement or some other as/more relevant article?? (Even the CAMERA article?) Of course, now that we have two examples from WP:RS sources maybe there needs to be a new section in the Wikipedia article itself. Have any other groups tried this sort of thing to the extent it was noticed by WP:RS?? CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just noticed: The Guardian has an article on this now. CarolMooreDC (talk) 12:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- See Zionist editing on Wikipedia and and related deletion discussion. This campaign is also noted in Yesha Council. RolandR (talk) 14:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just noticed: The Guardian has an article on this now. CarolMooreDC (talk) 12:36, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- As I wrote on the main collaboration talk page, if the CAMERA article can note their organizing people to edit wikipedia (see here), why not a note in the Israeli settlement or some other as/more relevant article?? (Even the CAMERA article?) Of course, now that we have two examples from WP:RS sources maybe there needs to be a new section in the Wikipedia article itself. Have any other groups tried this sort of thing to the extent it was noticed by WP:RS?? CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Update: The battle for Wikipedia: Palestinians counter Israeli editing group
[6] and Palestinians prepare to battle 'Zionist editing' on Wikipedia [7] harlan (talk) 08:17, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
New IRC Channel
Hi, just a heads up that an irc channel has been created, you can read more here. Feel free to contact me if you have questions, Best un☯mi 18:11, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
AfD "Zionist editing on Wikipedia"
[8] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:20, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Preemptive war
Hi, a discussion on the presentation of the Six-Day War at Preemptive war has been started in the talk page to the latter article. Please join in and comment. Thanks! Shoplifter (talk) 16:40, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Categories dealing with bigotry
This is a particular problem with Category:Antisemitism but also other bigotry-related categories where individuals' names are listed despite indications in BLP policy they shouldn't be. (And disclaimers on category pages themselves may be vs. policy.) Full policy details and proposal here: Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons#Inconsistencies.2Fambiguities_in_categories_about_various_forms_of_bigotry.
Something I did not cover explicitly there is discussion of things like why it's ok to have a Category:Anti-Islam activists and Category:Islam critical scholars but such categories for other religions might be AfD'd immediately. I just don't have energy to figure out how to AfD either, in case someone else does. Other thoughts? CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
The JIDF have noticed that someone has tagged the page as an advert. They have been sending IPs over to remove the tag. I've reverted twice. Is someone able to semi-protect the page or at least watch it so that they can join in the reverting when the people on their alert list wake up?--Peter cohen (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- The article is derived entirely from reliable sources. It's not an advertisement. This is just another stunt being pulled by anti-Israel/anti-JIDF activists, like yourself. There's also no evidence to support that the JIDF has been doing as you allege. --Miamiville (talk) 21:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Please comment on content, not on your views of other editors. I suggest that you strike out your personal remarks above. RolandR (talk) 21:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Nice use of the Liar paradox there.--Peter cohen (talk) 23:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Deletion discussion for Category:Anti-Islam Activists
Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_August_25#Category:Anti-Islam_activists. CarolMooreDC (talk) 05:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
RfC Notification
I'd appreciate comments from anyone who wants to offer an opinion here. NickCT (talk) 19:27, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Legality and edit warring
A line discussing the legality of settlements was a hot issue a couple months ago and is back. It has been discussed on a handful of article talk pages but never centralized. It has led to renewed edit warring at Psagot. It was already part of the reason one editor received a temporary ban (now completed) from related articles so I figured I would be proactive and see if it it is time to open up an RfC or something similar. How should the line "Settlement name, like all West Bank settlements, is illegal under international law." be handled? Editors have cited NPOV for both keeping and removing and I agree that both trains of thought on it have merit. It can continue on a case by case basis if people prefer, but at the very least the edit warring and dismissal of previous arguments needs to stop. It has already disrupted the topic area to much. Stating an opinion on a talk page or edit summary then making the change regardless of the response is not reaching consensus.
And before the accusations start flying, I came across this from stalking LibiBamizrach. I was curious about the new guy. And no, Nableezy is not all to blame for it since others are also reverting.Cptnono (talk) 19:39, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- The question is who can label a place illegal and if there is context to use that label? Can a reporter from BBC, just say off hand that 'X is illegal' and we accept it plainly because BBC is normally a reliable source? Should not some context in that source be necessary to back up that claim? Is it merely 'widely known', the opinion of many people, or a fact? Are only Jewish settlements illegal, or anything built after 1967 including Palestinian settlements? Can a BBC reporter or one from the Guardian make legal judgements? --Shuki (talk) 21:57, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- Is legality/illegality a fact? Simple answer: no one can say. However, the legality issue is one of the central topics regarding the settlements and should be mentioned in the respective articles. The exact language have to be as neutral as possible, reflect the major POVs and integrate naturally into the article style. In general, something like "The settlement is illegal under international law ref, though Israel disputes thisref" or "The settlement is illegal according to Aref, Bref though Cref and Dref disputes thisref" can fit most of the articles about specific settlements. I guess finding very solid reliable sources (UN, etc.) would be easy. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 11:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
As far as the desirability of mentioning the legality of the settlements and outposts in international law is concerned, I don't have a firm opinion. I'd like to point out though, that as far as the BBC is concerned, there is a guideline advising journalists how to write about the settlements: Settlements are residential areas built by Israelis in the occupied territories. They are illegal under international law: this is the position of the UN Security Council and the UK government among others - although Israel rejects this. When writing a story about settlements we can aim, where relevant, to include context to the effect that "all settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this". I'd also like to point out that the International Court of Justice, which guides the UN, has given an advisory opinion that all the settlements are illegal. Also, Israeli government lawyers in the aftermath of the 6-day War gave a similar opinion to the Israeli government of the time. ← ZScarpia 13:20, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Regarding stabs: surely some mention of legality question can be added to a tiny article of 100-200 words like Ma'ale Levona, without ruining the style. But stabs? Don't know... Is 1/5 of total word count looks undue? 1/3? Are stabs unbalancedby definition? --ElComandanteChe (talk) 13:31, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- ZScarpia, I guess UN and ICJ documents can be easily found. Can you please provide any clue where to look for the Israeli government lawyers opinion? --ElComandanteChe (talk) 13:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- The post 6 Day War opinion was written by Theodor Meron and is in English here. Excellent topic for a conversation, fights over terminology are a big part of the I/P talk page fights. Sol Goldstone (talk) 15:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- My principal source is 1967: Israel, the war, and the year that transformed the Middle East, Tom Segev, 2005, ISBN 0805070575. Page 576:
- Roughly three months later, a top secret - and quite embarrassing - legal opinion by the foreign minister's legal counsel stated that civilian settlements in the "administered territories" contravened international law. The counsel, Theodor Meron, was unequivocal: according to Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, an occupying country shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. Meron quoted an authoritative interpretation of the clause, which reinforced his opinion that Israel could not settle its citizens in the territories. He concluded that settlements should be implemented by the army, in camps that were - at least in appearance - temporary. Military camps could not be set up just anywhere, and ownership titles had to be respected. These restrictions, the opinion went on, applied first of all to the Golan Heights, which undoubtedly constituted an occupied territory.
- According to Israel, the final status of the West Bank had never been determined, and its annexation to the Hashemite Kingdom had not been carried out legally. And hence Israel claimed that the West Bank was not an occupied territory, which meant that it was not prevented from settling its citizens there. Meron did not refute this argument, but noted that it was disputed by the international community. Furthermore, Meron noted with embarrassment, Israel itself had recognized the status of the West Bank as an occupied territory by publishing military decrees declaring explicitly that it would respect the Geneva Conventions.
- ← ZScarpia 16:39, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- Also, apparently, on 9 June 2005, in a case in which a petition by a group of settlers against the Evacuation Compensation Law and the Disengagement Plan was rejected, the Israeli Supreme Court also ruled that the occupied territories are “lands seized during warfare and are not part of Israel.” (source: P K Kumaraswamy, Historical Dictionary of the Arab-Israeli Conflict) ← ZScarpia 16:40, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- It might help jump start the discussion if someone familiar with the particulars of this dispute summarizes both sides. Sol Goldstone (talk) 23:14, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think there are sides here. Given the right sources and polished wording the issue can be addressed almost in every settlement-related article. Am I naive? Also, is this the ICJ advisory opinion mentioned above? Is it good as source? --ElComandanteChe (talk) 23:06, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, perhaps I should have phrased it better, I was referring to "Editors have cited NPOV for both keeping and removing and I agree that both trains of thought on it have merit". So if the question is just "Can we call settlements illegal under international law without violating NPOV?" that is simpler. Sol Goldstone (talk) 23:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- The Geneva Convention is a universally ratified written agreement between contracting state parties which defines grave breaches and categorizes them as crimes. About 175 states have formally adopted Additional Protocol 1 to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949. Article 85(4)(a) and 85(5) provide that the transfer by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies is a grave breach that shall be regarded as war crime. [9]
- When the Security Council established the Ad Hoc International Criminal Tribunals it adopted Statues under the terms of Chapter VII resolutions which said that the Additional Protocol had, beyond any doubt, passed into the body of customary international law that was binding upon non-signatories, e.g. [10] The Israeli MFA advises that the Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that the Fourth Geneva Convention and certain parts of Additional Protocol I reflect customary international law that is applicable in the occupied territories. [11]
- 113 States have subsequently ratified the Rome Statute. Article 8(2)(b)(viii) provides that the transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory is a war crime.
- Individual states do not determine their obligations to other state parties under the terms of either conventional or customary international law. A Reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Convention issued a Declaration that the territory Israel captured in 1967 is occupied under the terms of the convention and that the Israeli settlements are illegal. [12] The ICJ also advised the General Assembly that Israel had facilitated the transfer of portions of its population into the occupied territories and established settlements there in violation of its obligations under international law, including Article 49(6) of the Fourth Geneva Convention. See for example paragraphs 120 & 134. [13] The Court noted that many participating states in the proceedings had argued that under the terms of the Fourth Geneva Convention, Israel is under an obligation to search for and bring before its courts persons alleged to have committed, or to have ordered to be committed, grave breaches of international humanitarian law (paras 144-145). harlan (talk) 02:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Harlan, thank you for excellent reference. To the matter: we have to agree on a single neutral phrase or two about legality which can fit most settlement articles, or address the problem from a different angle (for example, mention that the land is disputed), or decide nothing and accept sporadic edit warring. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 14:29, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oh ok, I thought Cptnono was asking about whether it should be put into individual articles and not if it is true/supported. To save rehashing the "International law and Israeli settlements" article, yes, they are illegal. There are academics and some parts of the Israeli government that uphold their legality but even the Israeli High Court describes the land as occupied (while deferring to the military on what constitutes the "military necessity" that legitimizes creating civilian population centers). Should it be put into every article on Israeli settlements? It seems a little pedantic to insert it into each article but if it's Nableezy's 6 words it's not too disruptive. I'd say not an NPOV issue and probably not an undue weight issue but I'm open to persuasion on the latter. Sol Goldstone (talk) 18:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- The Psagot shows how surprisingly complicated it is. It originally was a complete stub. One of the reason for removing it was because there was a wikilink and that was due weight (from my understanding of the dispute only). The of course editors start saying "well you should expand the article then". I'm glad that it happened but it isn't the responsibility of those not supporting a line to expand the article. Unfortunately the wording is still not hammered out. One editor thought he had it a good idea and propsed it on Nableezy's page. Proposals are in at the other talk page and some even just made edits hoping it would work it looks like. And it gets even worse since now people are concerned about ho much weight it deserves in the lead and the body. So it isn't very clear cut how to go about fixing this yet if we are going to be doing topic wide.Cptnono (talk) 20:29, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Haha, oh wow, the Psagot talk page is a killing field at the moment. Nableezy does have the strength of a few articles directly discussing the illegality of this particular settlement which makes it seem like the sentence in question is appropriate for this article by virtue of its notability. For other articles lacking devoted articles/sources, I'm really not sure. If it can't be blocked as NPOV then I guess it would be a matter of determining undue weight on a case by case basis. Sol Goldstone (talk) 03:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- The Psagot shows how surprisingly complicated it is. It originally was a complete stub. One of the reason for removing it was because there was a wikilink and that was due weight (from my understanding of the dispute only). The of course editors start saying "well you should expand the article then". I'm glad that it happened but it isn't the responsibility of those not supporting a line to expand the article. Unfortunately the wording is still not hammered out. One editor thought he had it a good idea and propsed it on Nableezy's page. Proposals are in at the other talk page and some even just made edits hoping it would work it looks like. And it gets even worse since now people are concerned about ho much weight it deserves in the lead and the body. So it isn't very clear cut how to go about fixing this yet if we are going to be doing topic wide.Cptnono (talk) 20:29, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oh ok, I thought Cptnono was asking about whether it should be put into individual articles and not if it is true/supported. To save rehashing the "International law and Israeli settlements" article, yes, they are illegal. There are academics and some parts of the Israeli government that uphold their legality but even the Israeli High Court describes the land as occupied (while deferring to the military on what constitutes the "military necessity" that legitimizes creating civilian population centers). Should it be put into every article on Israeli settlements? It seems a little pedantic to insert it into each article but if it's Nableezy's 6 words it's not too disruptive. I'd say not an NPOV issue and probably not an undue weight issue but I'm open to persuasion on the latter. Sol Goldstone (talk) 18:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
This is a ridiculous discussion that completely ignores the sources and instead focuses on what some editors want without any backing in the sources. Here is a collection of sources saying that all Israeli settlements are illegal under international law:
- Abu-Lughod, Janet. "Israeli Settlements in Occupied Arab Lands: Conquest to Colony". Journal of Palestine Studies. 11 (2). University of California Press: pp. 16-54.
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p. 17: annexations, expulsions and the creation of settlements are specifically prohibited by international law. The Fourth Geneva Convention, in Article 47, proscribes the annexation of occupied territory, and the United Nations has repeatedly condemned Israel's precipitous annexation of East Jerusalem and a wide belt of surrounding suburbs, villages and towns. Article 49 of the same convention prohibits the forcible transfer or deportation of residents from an occupied area, regardless of motive. And yet thousands of Palestinians have been expelled (see Lesch, 1979:113-130, for a partial list of the "officially deported" ones) while many more have been, through measures to be described below, "pressured" to leave. The same Article expressly forbids the transfer by an occupying power of any of its civilian population into occupied areas. And yet, at most recent count, over 90,000 Israeli Jews have been officially "settled" within the illegally- annexed Jerusalem district, and more than 30,000 others have been "settled" in some 100 nahals (military forts), villages and even towns that the Israeli government has authorized, planned, financed and built in unannexed zones beyond the 1949 cease-fire line that Israelis refer to not as a border, but euphemistically as a "green line."
- Falk, Richard. "International Law and the al-Aqsa Intifada". Middle East Report (217). Middle East Research and Information Project: pp. 16-18.
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p. 17: Article 49 has been interpreted as prohibiting both forced deportations of Palestinians and population transfers of the sort associated with the establishment and continuous expansion of Israeli settlements
- Roberts, Adam. "Prolonged Military Occupation: The Israeli-Occupied Territories Since 1967". The American Journal of International Law. 84 (1). American Society of International Law: pp. 44-103.
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p. 85: The settlements program is quite simply contrary to international law. However, it is now so far advanced, and so plainly in violation of the Geneva Convention, that it actually creates a powerful reason for Israel's continuing refusal to accept that the Convention is applicable in the occupied territories on a de jure basis
Break 1
This is not a real dispute and the the solution is simple. Follow what high quality sources say and just say "Israeli settlement X is illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this". The entire opposition here stems from a demand that what can be sourced to countless high quality sources be watered down to suit the political leanings of a few wikipedia editors. nableezy - 03:50, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- It is a real dispute and you just dismissed several editor's reasoning by assuming it is not. Yes, settlements are obviously condemned by the international community. However, sources verifying that there are other concerns with the seizure of land but not the installation of housing need to be disregarded (there are plenty without it though). More importantly for our concerns here on Wikipedia, how is it to be worded? Where in the article does it belong? If it is twice (lead and body) how is the wording adjusted? If an article is too small how does it get addressed? It is not nearly as simple as "it is illegal". NPOV is not verifiability. It is wording and weight. So does this go into every single article about settlements? The original question here was if we need a centralized discussion and it is still question that needs to be answered. There is edit warring and there has been edit warring over this so it is not clearly as easy as you providing sources would assume. Psagot is the perfect example. Why are you and other editors edit warring? It shouldn't be happening. So how do you, Nableezy, and other editors who agree that it is illegal wish to present the information across the topic? Or you can keep on edit warring. There is nothing I would lik to see more then all of you hitting the revert button banned from the topic area.Cptnono (talk) 10:34, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- As is so often the case, you have no idea what it is you are talking about. I am not "assuming" anything. The editors "reasoning" is not based on any sources and as such it is invalid. Why are you getting involved in yet another topic where you plainly have no idea what it is you are talking about? A "dispute" does not occur simply because some nationalist editors dont like what the sources say. I provide sources, you and your friends provide nothing but obfuscation and time-wasting tactics. There is no dispute in the sources on the illegality of Israeli settlements. That is a well-documented fact. That nationalistic tendencies prevent some users from accepting that fact should have no bearing on what supposed "encyclopedia" articles say. To your last line, there is nothing I would like to see uninformed editors either being banned or going to a library and reading a book before they get involved in these issues. nableezy - 13:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think this discussion was started to address the points you just mentioned. I understand your frustration after repeating the same arguments again and again, but may be this time we have a chance of a constructive dialog? --ElComandanteChe (talk) 14:13, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Not with some of the names we are seeing here. This isnt a discussion on the topic and wasnt meant to be, this is just one editor continuing with his years long campaign to try to get me banned. If this was about the content Cptnono would not have put "and edit-warring" in the thread title and would not have said some of the stupider things he wrote above. He would have, and this part is shocking, tried to read some sources and see what they say about the topic. I can have this discussion, but not with those who are both uninformed and show no interest in becoming informed. I gave sources and reasons based in policy for why the articles should say certain things. The response from Cptnono is blanket statements without any backing about "NPOV" or "edit-warring" and other such inanity. There was not even an effort to look up sources and determine if his or any other positions have any backing in the sources. This will end up being one more example of what is wrong here, process is put over substance. Cptnono thinks he is doing things the "right way" but has no understanding of the actual substance of the issues involved here. So we get "discussions" about "disputes" where we need dispassionate analysis of the sources and how to reflect the weight the sources give to the well-established fact the settlements are illegal under international law. "Nableezy, and other editors who agree it is illegal" is an example of how uninformed discussions do not help. It is not "Nableezy and other editors" who say that the settlements are illegal. It is the sources. That is what matters here, but too many editors disregard the sources when it does not fit their nationalist agenda. All that matters here is the sources, and when I provide sources the response is, as is often the case, lacking in a single source but rather tries to shift the discussion to the "process". nableezy - 15:13, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- I think this discussion was started to address the points you just mentioned. I understand your frustration after repeating the same arguments again and again, but may be this time we have a chance of a constructive dialog? --ElComandanteChe (talk) 14:13, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- As is so often the case, you have no idea what it is you are talking about. I am not "assuming" anything. The editors "reasoning" is not based on any sources and as such it is invalid. Why are you getting involved in yet another topic where you plainly have no idea what it is you are talking about? A "dispute" does not occur simply because some nationalist editors dont like what the sources say. I provide sources, you and your friends provide nothing but obfuscation and time-wasting tactics. There is no dispute in the sources on the illegality of Israeli settlements. That is a well-documented fact. That nationalistic tendencies prevent some users from accepting that fact should have no bearing on what supposed "encyclopedia" articles say. To your last line, there is nothing I would like to see uninformed editors either being banned or going to a library and reading a book before they get involved in these issues. nableezy - 13:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
THANK YOU NABLEEZY This is the man who wrote the The Truth section on the Gaza War talk page. I expect you'll ban my IP after you read this, so let me get straight to it. Cptnono told me to take my "soapboxing" here, so I found something else, what I was looking for, a guy who skips all the stupid technical talk that doesn't matter and says forget the POV discussion and start using sources in an article that demands sources. And I mean good sources, like frontline battle accounts and pieces of international law. From what I've seen I'm sure I disagree with Nableezy's politics, but he's done with your process that is getting nowhere. He's using facts, the Geneva Convention is legit material to use. Most Israel related articles here are mostly manufactured news pieces and filled with editorials by people who aren't experts but claim to be, like John Mearshemier being referenced somewhere in one of these talk pages. He wasn't there, he sat in an air conditioned room at the University of Chicago. Sure Nableezy puts a spin on them a bit because of his beliefs but I do too, we all do. Nobody is innocent. Cut the BS. Whoever they are biased towards, its stupid to debate their neutrality. Middle Eastern related articles all need huge overhauls, and using actual facts like international law and frontline battle accounts before spitting off a viewpoint for anyone's side. Whether you think Israel deliberately launches wars to massacre Palestinians or not, I don't care, but use facts like Nebleezy does. If a political commentator that isn't involved in being in government or military or anything relevant is being used as a source without using facts himself, he shouldn't be used to even show what a viewpoint is. I use Wiki for some things, when it uses facts, but I have my doubts. I want to see the attitude and writing style change, not just articles. Ban me if you want, if you do you're only proving that you're going nowhere with this. But thanks Nebleezy. I don't like your politics, but keep using facts like the Geneva Convention and stuff, it's going out of style with these "excuse me"'s and "actually"'s all over Wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.236.248.179 (talk) 01:36, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
- What are the policy grounds for objecting to putting in the "illegal settlements" sentence into the Psagot article? It's verified by RS and not a NPOV issue to point out that this settlement, by name, has been decried as illegal. Sol Goldstone (talk) 15:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- May be I'm missing something, but my impression is that almost everybody agreed to have it in Psagot. The disagreement is about the exact wording and it's location in the article. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 16:44, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- That is about right. I have seen people dispute the line on factual grounds but I don't get that. Yes, the issue has been about other aspects. Relevancy (originally it wasn't sourced to that specific settlement), how to word it, if Israel's stance on it is necessary, where does it go, and so on.Cptnono (talk) 18:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- May be I'm missing something, but my impression is that almost everybody agreed to have it in Psagot. The disagreement is about the exact wording and it's location in the article. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 16:44, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Shall we go back to this discussion? Can it result in a rule of handling the legality issue in the settlement articles? --ElComandanteChe (talk) 22:24, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
What do people feel about this sentence added into all settlement articles? : "Israeli settlements in the PT/GH are regarded as illegal by the international community, though Israel disputes this." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:51, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- That phrasing is ambiguous. What does Israel dispute -- the illegality, or the fact that "the international comnmunity"" regards them as illegal? Also, the phrase "international community" is undefined, and open to endless quibbling. Any such sentence, rewritten, should link to International law and Israeli settlements which sets out the debate. RolandR (talk) 17:09, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Israel objects to that the settlements are illegal. By "international community" I mean the vast majority of all countries on earth, what other word or phrasing should be used for this? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:46, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- I know what you mean, of course. But I am trying to prevent the use of terminology which would be open to constant quibbling by editors who fail to assume good faith. Maybe we should just use the first sentence of International law and Israeli settlements, "The consensus view of the international community is that the building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, is illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this", with a link to the article. RolandR (talk) 18:09, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Logically, this one is great. The problem is that it will take 50% of an average settlement article and will cause "undue weight" complaints. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 18:58, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- There is no problem with adding one single sentence. Even if some of them are stubs, its the view of the entire world, it deserves one sentence at least. RolandRs suggestion is to long and can easily be cut down, for example we don't have to mention legality of West bank in Golan articles and vice versa, and "The consensus view of the international community is that the building of Israeli settlements" can be cut down to: "The international community considers Israeli settlements"... ElComandanteChe, what do you think of my suggestion?: "Israeli settlements in the PT/GH are regarded as illegal by the international community, though Israel disputes this." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm pretty happy with any wording, if it neutrally presents the relevant viewpoints and is properly sourced, but not for stubs or tiny articles. In these cases links (1, 2) are enough. Both you and Nableezy tried it in stubs, and each time it sparked an edit war and/or dragging each other to WP:AN/I. Unfortunately, in I-P area we have to be diplomatic in our edits. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 23:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, and call me Che (I like it, others call me this way, and it saves typing), if you don't mind. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 23:20, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- You are right on with the stub thing. And for start or higher articles, it still hasn't been addressed if it belongs in the lead, its own section, a history section, or all three.Cptnono (talk) 23:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- What do you think? --ElComandanteChe (talk) 23:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- You are right on with the stub thing. And for start or higher articles, it still hasn't been addressed if it belongs in the lead, its own section, a history section, or all three.Cptnono (talk) 23:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- There is no problem with adding one single sentence. Even if some of them are stubs, its the view of the entire world, it deserves one sentence at least. RolandRs suggestion is to long and can easily be cut down, for example we don't have to mention legality of West bank in Golan articles and vice versa, and "The consensus view of the international community is that the building of Israeli settlements" can be cut down to: "The international community considers Israeli settlements"... ElComandanteChe, what do you think of my suggestion?: "Israeli settlements in the PT/GH are regarded as illegal by the international community, though Israel disputes this." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Logically, this one is great. The problem is that it will take 50% of an average settlement article and will cause "undue weight" complaints. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 18:58, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- I know what you mean, of course. But I am trying to prevent the use of terminology which would be open to constant quibbling by editors who fail to assume good faith. Maybe we should just use the first sentence of International law and Israeli settlements, "The consensus view of the international community is that the building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, is illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this", with a link to the article. RolandR (talk) 18:09, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Israel objects to that the settlements are illegal. By "international community" I mean the vast majority of all countries on earth, what other word or phrasing should be used for this? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:46, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I think the BBC is confusing defiance of international law with disputing the content of international law. There is a lot of out-of-date material on the Israeli MFA website that was written before the Rome Statute entered into effect in 2002, e.g. [14] That also means that it was written before the 2004 ICJ Advisory ruling too. At the time that it was adopted in 1998, Israeli officials acknowledged that the settlements would be war crimes under the terms of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court when it entered into effect, e.g. [15]. Prior to his appointment to the Israeli Supreme Court, Attorney General Elyakim Rubinstein warned the Knesset Constitution and Law Committee that Israeli settlers could be indicted by the ICC, and that non-ratification would not provide immunity from prosecution by the court. See "Israel and the ICC" in the July 1, 2002 edition of The Nation. [16] After the ICJ advisory opinion, Attorney General Mazuz and the experts at the Justice Ministry warned that Israeli citizens are open to criminal and civil suits abroad, and that the state is open to international sanctions, e.g. [17].
Some Wikipedia editors still argue about the applicability of the Geneva Conventions, even though the MFA says that "Israel must adhere to the rules and principles in (a) the Fourth Geneva Convention, (b) the Regulations annexed to the Fourth Hague Convention (which reflect customary international law), and (c) the customary international law principles reflected in certain provisions of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions on 1949." See paragraph 31 [18]. /Operation_Gaza_factual_and_legal_aspects_applicable_legal_framework_5_Aug_2009.htm] harlan (talk) 04:58, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Comment - I just came across this lengthy discussion, and while not having read all of it, I skimmed it a bit. This is really a reply to Che's comment that "The problem is that it will take 50% of an average settlement article and will cause 'undue weight' complaints." Okay, maybe others read Wikipedia's undue weight policy differently than myself, but my understanding is that undue weight doesn't have anything to do with what percentage of an article can be devoted to which aspects of a topic. My understanding is that undue weight refers to reflecting majority and minority viewpoints on a subject, in proportion to the prominence of each. We have a majority viewpoint (held by most of the world) that the settlements are illegal. We have a minority viewpoint (held by Israel) that the settlements are legal. The proposed statement above is short and includes both. I don't think that WP:UNDUE has anything whatsoever to do with how long this sentence is relative to the length of the article. Am I missing something here? Where does the policy page mention the length of the majority/minority viewpoint relative to the length of the article? That page actually says that "All facts and significant points of view on a given subject should be treated in one article except in the case of an article spinout." ← George talk 04:53, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- The scope of the article should primarily be the location, not the legal question. So it is fair to mention the legal viewpoint but if it overpowers the other aspects of the subject then it is receiving excess prominence. That was part of what I was getting at up above when mentioning where in the article and how much space it should receive. I honestly don't know the correct balance (one of the reasons I delayed responding to ElComandanteChe). Cptnono (talk) 05:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- When you write "if it overpowers the other aspects of the subject then it is receiving excess prominence," I guess my question is - so what? Regardless of whether or not that's true, which Wikipedia policy says that it's bad to give excess prominence to one aspect of a subject over others? I really think editors are misreading what the undue weight policy says.
- Let me try to give an example. Say I'm writing an article about my favorite soccer team, and say that half of that article is about one specific player (on a team of eleven). The undue weight policy doesn't say that's bad. All that the undue weight policy says is keep fringe and minority views to a minimum; to keep out (or at least keep down) claims like 'the earth is flat'. At some point that article might get too long, and guidelines say that the material should be spun off to another article, but that's a different subject.
- Based on the sources above that say it's the "international community's view," I don't think that labeling settlements as illegal is a fringe theory. If editors think that the label itself is a fringe or minority view, then they can cite the undue weight policy. But if anything, since only Israel considers the settlements to be legal, that would be the more fringe-like of the two theories. (I'm not saying keep out Israel's viewpoint. Since Israel is a key party to the topic, its opinion should be included too.) ← George talk 05:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Half of a soccer team's article about one player would be terrible. It is often referred to as undue weight across the project when such instances occur but you are right, undue weight does not directly say that articles cannot overly focus on one particular aspect. However, articles on a populated place should give the proper amount of focus on schools, roads, demographics, and so on. If the article is primarily about the legal issue (which happens on these short stubs) then they need to be retitled "Legal status of settlement x". And it has nothing to do with keeping out Israel's viewpoint (UNDUE does come into play there, though) but the overall scope of the article. Cptnono (talk) 06:01, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- BTW, a good fix to an article on a soccer team that overemphasizes one player would be to create an article for the player instead. Unfortunately, the solution is not as easy here!Cptnono (talk) 06:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- While I certainly agree that having half a soccer team's article about one player would be terrible, I don't think anyone could just go and remove the information about that player from the article citing undue weight—especially if there's only one sentence talking about that player in a two sentence soccer team stub. And I agree that there is this common misconception floating around about what the undue weight policy says. And I agree that articles on populated places should include as much information as we have available in reliable sources, but that's also not a valid reason to remove information about the legal status of the populated place—only an incentive to expand those articles.
- Now, if these were sizable articles, and they were mostly about the legal status of the settlement, then of course it should be split into two articles—one about the legal status, and one about the settlement. We have the content forking guidelines for that very reason. But, if I understand correctly, we aren't discussing sizable articles ready to be split, and there isn't much information being added about the settlements (as in, multiple paragraphs making up the majority of the article). If it's just one sentence in a stub being discussed, I can't see any policy-based reason to exclude it—especially not due to common misconceptions about what undue weight says. ← George talk 06:45, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Looks like neither of us believes the info should be removed completely. It is a matter of space. In the perfect world, people would be expanding these articles. Unfortunately, I feel that the space allotted is tied by the reality that they are not expanded. You're right about the size. I saw one settlement article (don't recall which) that was of decent size and the legality received a whole section. Did not jump out as a problem at all. The concern is with these stubs and how much play it gets there. Since we cannot rely on the articles being expanded first, there needs to be some consensus on how to handle those since it is edit warred over repeatedly. It sucks since I really have know idea what the best step forward is.Cptnono (talk) 07:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- My personal opinion is to allow a single, short, to the point sentence in those stubs, one that states both viewpoints, a la "The international community considers Israeli settlements in the (West Bank/Golan Heights) illegal; Israel disagrees." We shouldn't allow editors to remove information as undue weight when it isn't. We should encourage them to expand the articles. If the legality information gets too lengthy, we should consider refactoring, retitling, or forking the article. We also have to keep in mind that there may be some cases where the legality/illegality is what makes the place notable. ← George talk 07:48, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Looks like neither of us believes the info should be removed completely. It is a matter of space. In the perfect world, people would be expanding these articles. Unfortunately, I feel that the space allotted is tied by the reality that they are not expanded. You're right about the size. I saw one settlement article (don't recall which) that was of decent size and the legality received a whole section. Did not jump out as a problem at all. The concern is with these stubs and how much play it gets there. Since we cannot rely on the articles being expanded first, there needs to be some consensus on how to handle those since it is edit warred over repeatedly. It sucks since I really have know idea what the best step forward is.Cptnono (talk) 07:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
<- I think Roland's proposed phrasing, "The consensus view of the international community is that the building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, is illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this", with a link to the International law and Israeli settlements is fine. I agree with George that there is no undue issue. The presence or absence of this highly notable information, central to the entire Arab-Israeli conflict, consistently covered in numerous reliable sources can't depend on the number of words in a particular article. Readers can't be deprived of information because editors haven't added far less notable and less significant information about a topic. Even information about roads for many of these places is likely to derive much of its significance and weight in reliable sources because infrastructure is managed under the rules of belligerent occuption by the military commander. The undue weight argument doesn't make sense. This is clear when you try to apply it to other topics. If you look at Cataglyphis hannae for example, a stub about an ant species, not something prone to partisan politics, it says, "Cataglyphis hannae is a species of ant in the family Formicidae. It is endemic to Tunisia." That's it, but that leaves out by far the most significant piece of information about this species, namely that it is workerless social parasite that lives in other species nests and the very first example of this adaptation that has been seen within the Cataglyphis genus. It wouldn't make sense to argue for the exclusion of this highly notable information on the basis that its inclusion would give undue weight to this single aspect of the animal and that editors should wait until more routine content about its morphology, development/reproductive cycle, communication/defensive adaptations, feeding habits etc are added. Settlements, ant species, whatever, it's all the same, we're building an encyclopedia bit by bit. The legality updates should be made to all relevant Israeli settlement articles, we should just move on and put this issue to rest once and for all. That is the best step forward in my view and if it triggers people to add further content to the articles that will be a bonus. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:20, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- So where in the article should that (or a similar line) go? If it is more then a stub does the line belong in both the lead and in a section? Cptnono (talk) 07:24, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think any absolute rule can be made. Personally, I think the type of sentence we're discussing sounds best at the end of the lead. It's effectively the "current status" of the area, so, chronologically speaking, the end of the lead is often (though not always) a good place. It's probably a case-by-case call with regards to a section as well. These articles should not go into detail about generic "settlements are illegal" information. For example, Psagot is a settlement. It's fine to say that it is considered illegal by the international community in the lead. If there was some particular sources that discuss Psagot specifically as being illegal, we could include details on that (e.g., Follow his trip to Psagot, President X said "This place is illegal."). We should not, however, talk about something like an International Criminal Court ruling that deemed all such settlements illegal, which was discussing Israeli settlements in general and never refers to Psagot. We have other articles for that kind of information. ← George talk 08:02, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, placement is a case by case detailed issue. What seems more important to me is making the first step towards solving this issue once and for all without drama i.e. at least including the information in all of the articles somewhere. I don't think there's a sensible reason for these detailed placement issues to prevent inclusion or be used to justify removal or trigger edit wars. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Getting a line worked out is a great first step. I am assuming there will be other issues still (how any lead line differs from a line in the body, if people are going to cry foul if a source does not directly mention the settlement in question, etc) but the bulk of the issue is addressed if we can hammer out a generic line for placement somewhere. Does anyone have any complaints about having a generic line available for every article? If not, any concerns with Roland's suggestion? Cptnono (talk) 09:28, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Breaking down RolandR's version: "The consensus view of the international community is that the building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, is illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this":
- The consensus view of the international community is that..." seems needlessly wordy to me. Why not just "The international community views/considers/regards..."?
- ...the building of Israeli settlements... - I'm actually pretty sure they consider both the building, and the very existence, of the settlements to be illegal. I would just say "...Israeli settlements..."
- ...in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights... I don't see any reason to list three areas for every settlement, and the way this is worded makes it sound like the Golan Heights is in the West Bank (which it isn't). I would just specify the appropriate one for the settlement in question.
- ...is illegal under international law... Do we need to add "under international law"? Or is it enough to just say they consider it illegal? Seems like extra words, and I'm not sure which law that refers to (we should wiki-link it if it's included).
- ...although Israel dispute this... Per WP:WTA, "Words such as but, however, and although may imply a relationship between two statements where none exists, perhaps inappropriately undermining the first or giving undue precedence to the credibility of the second." I don't know if the usage here undermines or promotes either, but it's something to keep in mind. There's also the vaguery around whether Israel dispute that settlements are illegal or if they dispute that the international community thinks that settlements are illegal.
- All in all, I would prefer something like "The international community considers Israeli settlements in (East Jerusalem/the West Bank/the Golan Heights) illegal; Israel dissents." The words in parentheses would be interchangeable. I'm not 100% sure about the ending with the semi-colon and the word "dissents", but I think it would be best to find some single, formal term for "disagrees" at the end. I'm not vehemently opposed to RolandR's suggestion though (or SD's above, either). ← George talk 09:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Breaking down RolandR's version: "The consensus view of the international community is that the building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, is illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this":
- Getting a line worked out is a great first step. I am assuming there will be other issues still (how any lead line differs from a line in the body, if people are going to cry foul if a source does not directly mention the settlement in question, etc) but the bulk of the issue is addressed if we can hammer out a generic line for placement somewhere. Does anyone have any complaints about having a generic line available for every article? If not, any concerns with Roland's suggestion? Cptnono (talk) 09:28, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, placement is a case by case detailed issue. What seems more important to me is making the first step towards solving this issue once and for all without drama i.e. at least including the information in all of the articles somewhere. I don't think there's a sensible reason for these detailed placement issues to prevent inclusion or be used to justify removal or trigger edit wars. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think any absolute rule can be made. Personally, I think the type of sentence we're discussing sounds best at the end of the lead. It's effectively the "current status" of the area, so, chronologically speaking, the end of the lead is often (though not always) a good place. It's probably a case-by-case call with regards to a section as well. These articles should not go into detail about generic "settlements are illegal" information. For example, Psagot is a settlement. It's fine to say that it is considered illegal by the international community in the lead. If there was some particular sources that discuss Psagot specifically as being illegal, we could include details on that (e.g., Follow his trip to Psagot, President X said "This place is illegal."). We should not, however, talk about something like an International Criminal Court ruling that deemed all such settlements illegal, which was discussing Israeli settlements in general and never refers to Psagot. We have other articles for that kind of information. ← George talk 08:02, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Been reading some of the latest posts, and what George and Sean say is true, adding the view of the international community with one single sentence in a stub has absolutely nothing to do with "undue weight" and that "Readers can't be deprived of information because editors haven't added far less notable and less significant information about a topic". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I also feel Rolands is to long and has several unnecessary words, my suggestion above is almost the same as yours except that the first main part of the sentence is flipped around and the last word "dissents" I'm not sure we should use the word "dissents", why not just say "disagrees" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yup, I was going off yours when I started thinking about a way to write it. I'm not really happy with the word "dissents" either, but it would be nice if we could find a single word that means disagrees, but in a more formal manner. Like a word that means when you disagree with something in a court of law (to imply that it's Israel's official stance). Though I'm sure "disagrees" would be fine too. ← George talk 10:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- The more formal phrase for Israel is "defends their legality." A reference for it is: Israeli Settlements and International Law, Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, 20 May 2001. URL accessed April 11, 2006. Also, this sintence should be wikilinked to International law and Israeli settlements, probably piped from "considers Israeli settlements in (East Jerusalem/the West Bank/the Golan Heights) illegal."
- George above and Supreme Deliciousness below are correct that UNDUE does not restrict adding a sentence about the settlements' legalilty. The issue with balance comes because they are stubs. The stub policy does seem to prohibit going around creating articles that don't provide basic descriptions, but just say "XXX is an illegal Israeli settlement." Once the basics (location, for instance) are in, however, we have a genuine stub, which can accept this information.--Carwil (talk) 12:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- We can not say "defends their legality" because it implies that they are legal. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- On wording: I like the one used by BBC ([19]), it's clear, simple and short. And if it's good for BBC journalists' guide, it's good enough for me. The rest of the raised issues (relevancy, relative volume, location, etc.) are style considerations and are individual to specific articles. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 21:07, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- The BBC version is quite well worded and neutral. What about Israeli settlements in (the West Bank/the Golan Heights/East Jerusalem) are considered illegal under international law, but Israel disputes this.? ← George talk 22:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- The source I have does not say that the settlements in Golan are illegal "under international law" but that its the view of the international community that they are illegal .--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm not sure if there's a difference, but what about three options, depending on where the settlement is:
- Israeli settlements in the West Bank are considered illegal by the international community, but Israel disputes this.
- Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem are considered illegal by the international community, but Israel disputes this.
- Israeli settlements in the Golan Heights are considered illegal by the international community, but Israel disputes this.
- I dunno, there's some wiggle room in there. Open to other suggestions. ← George talk 22:24, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm cool with all the above or their derivatives. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 22:28, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm not sure if there's a difference, but what about three options, depending on where the settlement is:
- The source I have does not say that the settlements in Golan are illegal "under international law" but that its the view of the international community that they are illegal .--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- The BBC version is quite well worded and neutral. What about Israeli settlements in (the West Bank/the Golan Heights/East Jerusalem) are considered illegal under international law, but Israel disputes this.? ← George talk 22:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- On wording: I like the one used by BBC ([19]), it's clear, simple and short. And if it's good for BBC journalists' guide, it's good enough for me. The rest of the raised issues (relevancy, relative volume, location, etc.) are style considerations and are individual to specific articles. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 21:07, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- We can not say "defends their legality" because it implies that they are legal. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yup, I was going off yours when I started thinking about a way to write it. I'm not really happy with the word "dissents" either, but it would be nice if we could find a single word that means disagrees, but in a more formal manner. Like a word that means when you disagree with something in a court of law (to imply that it's Israel's official stance). Though I'm sure "disagrees" would be fine too. ← George talk 10:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I also feel Rolands is to long and has several unnecessary words, my suggestion above is almost the same as yours except that the first main part of the sentence is flipped around and the last word "dissents" I'm not sure we should use the word "dissents", why not just say "disagrees" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
George, for Golan I prefer the other way around (no big difference) Israeli settlements in the Golan Heights are considered illegal by the international community, but Israel disputes this. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Totally fair. I think the order is somewhat subjective, and I don't really have a preference. Swapped my suggestion around to match yours. ← George talk 22:35, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I prefer "international community" over "international law". The wikilinks look good. Cptnono (talk) 22:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I have a preference, but I've updated my suggestions to yours. If the international community deems something illegal, it implies that it deems it illegal under international law (versus, say, Israeli law), so I'm fine with either. I'm not sure if only "illegal" should be wikilinked, or "illegal by the international community". ← George talk 22:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Er... lots of blue v less Easter eggy. Not sure. Cptnono (talk) 23:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- WP:MOSLINK#Link clarity says blue is not so important. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 23:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Er... lots of blue v less Easter eggy. Not sure. Cptnono (talk) 23:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I have a preference, but I've updated my suggestions to yours. If the international community deems something illegal, it implies that it deems it illegal under international law (versus, say, Israeli law), so I'm fine with either. I'm not sure if only "illegal" should be wikilinked, or "illegal by the international community". ← George talk 22:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I prefer "international community" over "international law". The wikilinks look good. Cptnono (talk) 22:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Totally fair. I think the order is somewhat subjective, and I don't really have a preference. Swapped my suggestion around to match yours. ← George talk 22:35, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Some discussion of resolution
Gentlemen, I hope we have made a remarkable progress. Congratulations. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 23:54, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Funny thing is that this proposed line is very similar to the one edit warred over. Discussion is good. And not to be a downer, but we are only partially through. The hardest step has been taken but we need to address citation (I have no problem bending standard practice by using sourcing not related to particular settlements) and placement. On the bright side, this is pretty cool.Cptnono (talk) 00:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think we're on the same page. Let's see if editors can identify two good sources for this sentence (one for international view, one for Israeli view). Then we can discuss location. As mentioned before, my inclination is towards the end of the lead, but I'm open to discussing it, and we should keep in mind that there may be exceptions to whatever we come up with. ← George talk 00:10, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)One additional note. In many of these articles, Israeli settlement and the geographic location are probably linked to earlier in the article (such as Psagot is an Israeli settlement in the West Bank.), so we probably won't have to wikilink them in this sentence. I've removed those wikilinks from the suggestions above, but of course they can (and should) be re-added if not already wikilinked earlier in those articles.
- Also, we should probably discuss specific sources to support each part of this sentence (one good source for the international view, and one good source for Israel's view). They've probably already been brought up above in this discussion, but we should try to isolate the best two so we don't get people adding a dozen sources for either part. If we can agree on which sources to use, we'll have a nearly cut-and-paste solution in many cases. ← George talk 00:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yearbook of the United Nations 2005, p 532-533 supports both the view of the vast majority of all countires and the Israeli view. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:14, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Two things. First, I think we'd be better off using a secondary source rather than a primary one. Second, while UN resolutions are good when trying to determine who thinks what, I don't think they're a good source. Nations will vote for or against UN resolutions for any number of reasons. It's not uncommon for one nation to vote in favor of another nation, so that the second nation will vote in favor of the first at some later point (if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours). It's also not uncommon for them to vote against resolutions for more minute reasons (disagreements over whether the UN should condemn vs. note vs. suggest, etc.). ← George talk 00:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Thats OR, if a nation votes for a resolution, then it supports its text. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- If I read your source correctly, the United States voted against the resolution. Does that mean that the United States considers the settlements to be legal? ← George talk 01:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- For a country to vote against a resolution, doesn't mean that they disagree with all of it, one thing that they disagree with is enough to vote against, but of course I dont know what this was. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:32, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- The whole of the international community does not think it is illegal from my understanding (US). The phrasing seemed broad enough to be OK and but it could be further tweaked ("the majority of the intl community", "widely considered by the intl community...", or something similar.)Cptnono (talk) 01:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Just because the US voted against the resolution doesnt mean that they disagree with all of it (settlements), this goes for Israel as well, one thing in a resolution is enough for them to vote against, we don't know what it was. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:34, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- The issue of the US position on legality is discussed at length by the Washington Post, a "newspaper of record" for the US context here. Summary:
- The State Department legal adviser issued an opinion, on request from Congress, in 1979 that creating the settlements "is inconsistent with international law."
- "As far as I know, I don't think it has ever been rescinded or challenged by any legal officer of the United States government," said Herbert J. Hansel, the former legal adviser who wrote the opinion.
- The Washington Post's reporting backs this assessment
- President Carter elsewhere stated that the settlements were illegal.[20]
- President Reagan viewed the settlements as "not illegal," but as "ill-advised" and "counterproductive"
- Hansel states: "Ronald Reagan expressed his opinion. But whatever you think of him, he was obviously not a lawyer. It still stands as the only definitive opinion of the U.S. government from a legal standpoint."
- The Washington Post states: "Despite the passage of time, the legal opinion, issued during the Carter administration, has never been revoked or revised. President Ronald Reagan said he disagreed with it -- he called the settlements 'not illegal' -- but his State Department did not seek to issue a new opinion."
- The Washington Post calls Hansel's opinion "the US opinion" in the present tense in 2009.
- Diplomatically, the US would simply prefer not to discuss the issue. "Aaron David Miller, a former peace negotiator, said successive U.S. administrations generally have chosen to dance around the question of the legality of settlements."
- The United States opts to talk in more general terms opposing the settlements, such as this phrase from Obama: "The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued settlements."
- The policy positions of US administrations (besides Reagan) have been: "the Johnson, Nixon, Ford, and Carter administrations' characterization of Israeli settlements in occupied Arab territory as 'illegal.'" Succeeding administrations have not said so, although they have criticized the settlements on other ground. See this article from Foreign Policy.
- The current US diplomatic posture was described by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton here (scroll down for her exact words.
- "For 40 years, successive American administrations of both parties have opposed Israel’s settlement policy."
- "And the Obama Administration’s position on settlements is clear, unequivocal. It has not changed. And as the President has said on many occasions, the United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements."
- Vaguely, she describes the settlement freeze as "far short of what we would characterize as our position, or what our preference would be."
- Comment: The US does not dissent from, or disagree with the international consensus. Adding "except the United States" to the text would be a distortion. Its internal review on the legality, rather, concurs with it. Its external diplomatic posture is not to talk about it, but to oppose settlement expansion on pragmatic grounds. It's not surprising then that the US has voted both ways on a series of UN resolutions condemning the settlements as illegal.--Carwil (talk) 02:15, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Would you mind collapsing that into a table must for easier viewing? It is clear that the US opinion is unclear. Voting one way, officials saying different things, and so on. Are there any other nations that may question the legality?Cptnono (talk) 02:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Even if you accept the idea that the US votes against the resolution count as a vote for settlement legality (which is a stretch, at best) there's no question about the current US position. As to other nations that question the legality ,everyone that's expressed an opinion, that I know of, has condemned the settlements. Sol (talk) 02:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- I just don't think we should use a primary source like a UN resolution for this info. I'm sure we have good secondary source that just summarize the stance for us (similar to the BBC page someone linked). We should not be trying to interpret who thinks what, based on their voting record (akin to saying a politician is pro-Taxation because they voted for a bill that included taxes but had other elements to it). We should just be reporting what reliable secondary sources say. Same goes for Israel disputing the illegality. ← George talk 04:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds fair. Was this the BBC article you were thinking of? Or what about this letter from the UN Permanent Observer: "despite the international consensus that these actions are illegal"? (seems to be in the context of settlements and associated policies but that could be overly broad) Sol (talk) 05:17, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Sol Goldstone, this is a great source:[21] "It is widely accepted that under international law, the Jewish settlements in the territories occupied by Israel in 1967 are illegal. Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states: "The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies." Within the international community the overwhelming view is that Article 49 is applicable to the occupation of the West Bank including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights. Almost the entire international community, including allies of Israel, have referred to the situation in these territories as occupation. The position that the 4th Geneva Convention does apply to the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights is supported by the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds fair. Was this the BBC article you were thinking of? Or what about this letter from the UN Permanent Observer: "despite the international consensus that these actions are illegal"? (seems to be in the context of settlements and associated policies but that could be overly broad) Sol (talk) 05:17, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- I just don't think we should use a primary source like a UN resolution for this info. I'm sure we have good secondary source that just summarize the stance for us (similar to the BBC page someone linked). We should not be trying to interpret who thinks what, based on their voting record (akin to saying a politician is pro-Taxation because they voted for a bill that included taxes but had other elements to it). We should just be reporting what reliable secondary sources say. Same goes for Israel disputing the illegality. ← George talk 04:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Even if you accept the idea that the US votes against the resolution count as a vote for settlement legality (which is a stretch, at best) there's no question about the current US position. As to other nations that question the legality ,everyone that's expressed an opinion, that I know of, has condemned the settlements. Sol (talk) 02:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Would you mind collapsing that into a table must for easier viewing? It is clear that the US opinion is unclear. Voting one way, officials saying different things, and so on. Are there any other nations that may question the legality?Cptnono (talk) 02:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- If I read your source correctly, the United States voted against the resolution. Does that mean that the United States considers the settlements to be legal? ← George talk 01:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Thats OR, if a nation votes for a resolution, then it supports its text. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Two things. First, I think we'd be better off using a secondary source rather than a primary one. Second, while UN resolutions are good when trying to determine who thinks what, I don't think they're a good source. Nations will vote for or against UN resolutions for any number of reasons. It's not uncommon for one nation to vote in favor of another nation, so that the second nation will vote in favor of the first at some later point (if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours). It's also not uncommon for them to vote against resolutions for more minute reasons (disagreements over whether the UN should condemn vs. note vs. suggest, etc.). ← George talk 00:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yearbook of the United Nations 2005, p 532-533 supports both the view of the vast majority of all countires and the Israeli view. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:14, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Im gonna start adding the sentence of the international community, we can use both the BBC source Sold Goldstone provided and the United Nations book, now before this we need to decide on the Israeli point of view, considering harlans sources below, what source shall we use for it and what shall we say that the Israeli pov is? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think that Israel's point of view is that it's ok to occupy the lands which it currently occupies, and it's ok to allow the settlements which it is currently allowing. :-) sorry, not trying to be facetious here, just pointing it out. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 16:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- ok. so then maybe the phrase which we insert should deal with the occupation itself as it relates to legality of settlements. For example, Israel feels that in 1967 there was no binding delineation of borders, so until agreement is reached, some of the land occupied in 1967 in the West Bank may be legitimately claimed by Israel in a final agreement. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think that Israel's point of view is that it's ok to occupy the lands which it currently occupies, and it's ok to allow the settlements which it is currently allowing. :-) sorry, not trying to be facetious here, just pointing it out. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 16:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Why not just write an article and use a template?
- The Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section) says that "any notable controversies" should be mentioned in the lead section. It is high time that we laid this issue to rest by including the available information in an international law article that can be included with the "main article" or "see also" templates.
- Carwill says the state of Israel "defends the legality of the settlements", but that is a gloss that avoids including the relevant published views. In “The Jewish Settlements in the West Bank: International Law and Israeli Jurisprudence”, Michael Galchinsky began by lamenting that: “Many who care about Israel have learned to stop caring about international law.” and finished his introduction by claiming “For good reasons, many who love Israel have honed their contempt for international law.” [22]
- Carwill cited a 2001 web page that became moot when the Rome Statute entered into effect in 2002. Even in Israel, those arguments are considered "quirky" and misleading PR. In several cases the High Court and the government have argued that the settlements are only "temporary" and that establishing permanent settlements would be illegal. See for example the Supreme Court ruling on the Elon Moreh settlement in Kretzmer, David, "The occupation of justice: the Supreme Court of Israel and the Occupied Territories", SUNY Press, 2002, ISBN 0791453375, page 88 [23] While the "disputed territory" arguments have been used by settlers and the government alike for PR purposes abroad, both groups have used completely different arguments in actual Israeli court cases. See for example the section where settlers employed the law of belligerent occupation on their own behalf in "Naaleh Association v. The Civil Administration of Judea and Samaria" in the International Law in Brief at the ASIL website [24]; and journalist/historian Gershom Gorenberg's remarks on the subject of actual government case law arguments at the South Jerusalem blog [25] and on page 363 of "The Accidental Empire: Israel and the Birth of the Settlements, 1967–1977", Macmillan, 2007, ISBN 0805082417.
- In 2002 the Israeli MFA claimed that the Rome statute is politically motivated, but acknowledged that "the transfer, directly or indirectly, by the occupying power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies" is an included criminal offense and that "the prosecutor has extensive powers, including to initiate proceedings on his or her own initiative." [26]. In the section above I supplied two articles in which the Attorney Generals of Israel and legal experts of the Justice Ministry acknowledged that failure to ratify the Rome statute does not provide immunity. They said that Israelis are open to civil and criminal action and that the state of Israel is open to sanctions. [27] [28]. FYI, many Wikipedia articles incorrectly claim or imply that only the Security Council can refer or initiate ICC cases.
- In previous discussions here regarding the "disputed territory" claim I supplied citations to the relevant published views of the MFA legal advisor, Theodor Meron, and the Defense Minister, Moshe Dayan. The latter was responsible for establishing the first Nahal-affiliated civilian settlements. Both officials acknowledged that the settlements violated the applicable international conventions. See Gorenberg's "And the Land was Troubled for Forty Years", The American Prospect, May 29, 2007 [29] - and pages 99 and 173 of Gorenberg's "The accidental empire".
- The 2003 MFA article on "Disputed Territory" ignores those inconvenient facts and the Rome Statute. It also suggests that Israel fought a defensive war in 1967. Many experts and scholars, including Theodore Meron, have pointed out that responsibility for the outbreak of the Six Day War has never been authoritatively established - and that it would not alter the principle of international law regarding the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war contained in Security council resolution 242 in any case. See Meron Theodor, "Henry's Wars and Shakespeare's Laws", Clarendon Press, 1993, ISBN 0198258119, page 46. In the same passage, Meron cited the General Assembly's definition of aggression which included invasion and occupation as constituent acts of aggression. That same customary law definition has been employed by the General Assembly in connection with the Israeli occupation of the territory it captured in 1967 (e.g. UNGA 39/146) and was recently incorporated in an amendment to the Rome Statute on the crime of aggression.
- The status of the Palestinian territory became moot after the 2004 ICJ Advisory opinion and the 2004 HCJ Beit Sourik Village ruling [30]. The 2005 Sasson report revealed that many Israeli government officials could be held liable for aiding/abetting or complicity in connection with their roles in establishing settlements. Culpability in such cases could either be established under Israeli laws or the provisions of Article 25 of the Rome Statute regarding joint criminal enterprises. harlan (talk) 20:16, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I opened this thread with a statement on Wikipedia policy regarding lead sections that is applicable to your discussion. I think we will need to have an ARBCOM clarification about the use of Wikipedia for propaganda purposes before this is finally settled. There are a number of high quality sources, including declassified Israeli state archive materials, which indicate that the so-called legal arguments about "disputed territories" are just that. harlan (talk) 20:35, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I certainly hope you are not accusing me of propaganda. Right now you are actually harming the consensus building process in the discussion above.Cptnono (talk) 20:40, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yes Harlan, you should know by now that providing high quality sources and asking that users educate themselves on the topic is "harming the consensus building process". How dare you do such a thing! nableezy - 20:47, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
No Cptnono, I am not accusing you of propagandizing. I am pointing out that Wikipedia has a number of articles that present carefully pruned published legal arguments about the disputed territories. Mant of those articles do not mention that those published legal arguments are quirky "PR" that the Israeli government or the settlers do not, and would not, use in actual court cases. harlan (talk) 21:01, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Harlan wilkerson, so how does all these sources you brought help this one sentence we want to ad into all settlement articles? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
There is an article, Israeli settlements and international law, from which I pulled the citation I mentioned above. All of this material belongs in it. And a one to two sentence reference to the settlements' legality belongs there as well. And I have no strong interest in "Israel defends their legality." Israel "has disputed their illegality" might address the POV concerns, and incorporate those moments when Israeli spokespeople have acknowledged their illegality. Everyone, do we have any post-Rome statute sources showing the Israeli government actively disputing the legal status of the settlements? Cptnono, Harlan's well-cited intervention didn't harm anything.--Carwil (talk) 21:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Israel's defense is needed. To be inline with UNDUE it should not overshadow the allegation though. But Harlan might be right. Instead of having any line at all I believe we should wikilink to the issue regarding the legality. At the bottom of the article in a See also section seems appropriate. Cptnono (talk) 21:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I really don't think we should relegate Israel's defense on the legality into a See also section. That said, we do need to establish that reliable sources actually say that Israel defends the existence of settlements as legal. From harlan's comment above, it sounds like Israel may have some mixed messages on the issue. ← George talk 21:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- For me the MFA position is official enough. If different arguments are used in courts, they can be given too, being supported by RS. The Harlan's conclusion on what is propaganda and that the Israeli government deeply inside it's soul considers the settlements illegal are WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS, if I'm not missing something. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 21:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think some of the commentary above was that the MFA page you linked to (from 2001) may not be the current view of Israel, as the laws changed in 2002 (or whatever the Rome Statute that editors keep mentioning is). We can't say the Israeli position did or didn't change, as that's just our opinion, but it would be cleaner if we could find post-2002 assessments from the Israeli government. If those don't exist, perhaps some post-2002 secondary sources discussing Israel's view on the settlement legality issue. If those don't exist, then we could probably run with the MFA article, until something better comes along anyways. ← George talk 21:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Unless the changed law is retroactive, which I guess it is not, it's irrelevant, for no settlements were founded since then (am I right?), except "the illegal outposts", who's story is different. To the point: we aren't about writing a legal opinion here, BBC says it's disputed by il.gov - it's disputed, the story ends :). Oh, and of course I'm going to look for more stuff on MFA site. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 22:06, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think some of the commentary above was that the MFA page you linked to (from 2001) may not be the current view of Israel, as the laws changed in 2002 (or whatever the Rome Statute that editors keep mentioning is). We can't say the Israeli position did or didn't change, as that's just our opinion, but it would be cleaner if we could find post-2002 assessments from the Israeli government. If those don't exist, perhaps some post-2002 secondary sources discussing Israel's view on the settlement legality issue. If those don't exist, then we could probably run with the MFA article, until something better comes along anyways. ← George talk 21:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- For me the MFA position is official enough. If different arguments are used in courts, they can be given too, being supported by RS. The Harlan's conclusion on what is propaganda and that the Israeli government deeply inside it's soul considers the settlements illegal are WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS, if I'm not missing something. --ElComandanteChe (talk) 21:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I really don't think we should relegate Israel's defense on the legality into a See also section. That said, we do need to establish that reliable sources actually say that Israel defends the existence of settlements as legal. From harlan's comment above, it sounds like Israel may have some mixed messages on the issue. ← George talk 21:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Israel's defense is needed. To be inline with UNDUE it should not overshadow the allegation though. But Harlan might be right. Instead of having any line at all I believe we should wikilink to the issue regarding the legality. At the bottom of the article in a See also section seems appropriate. Cptnono (talk) 21:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Carwill, Israeli settlements and international law is cruft that was spun-out of the Israeli Settlement article. Supreme Deliciousness, I would hope that you would not agree to include unnecessary propaganda as boilerplate in a lot of articles. But if you do, editors are certainly free to include published material which points out that the government of Israel doesn't use those arguments in its actual court cases or that declassified documents in the state archives show that the responsible Israeli officials agreed that the settlements violate the terms of the applicable international conventions. harlan (talk) 21:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- You missed my point, George. If Harlan is suggesting that the mention of legality should be at the top of the article in a hat note I think that it being at the bottom in the See also section is an alternative that could also be considered. In regards to Israel's defense, the current official policy of the state (not individuals in the government or cherry picked quotes) appears to be that they think it is legal. MFA website is one example.Cptnono (talk) 21:45, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- See also section is to link to other articles, we can not mention that the international community sees settlements as illegal in that section. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:11, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. I don't think either is particularly good option. I don't think using a hatnote in that manner would comply with the hatnote guidelines. And I don't think being in the See Also section makes sense either. In some cases, the most notable aspect of a settlement—that is, the most common reason that it is discussed by reliable sources—may be its legal status. We usually put notable aspects of a topic in the body of the article, and ancillary, loosely related aspects in the See Also section. I do think that the source you provided is pretty good though (and more recent), and could be used to support the official Israeli stance mentioned in the proposed compromise sentences we were discussing earlier. ← George talk 21:57, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- You missed my point, George. If Harlan is suggesting that the mention of legality should be at the top of the article in a hat note I think that it being at the bottom in the See also section is an alternative that could also be considered. In regards to Israel's defense, the current official policy of the state (not individuals in the government or cherry picked quotes) appears to be that they think it is legal. MFA website is one example.Cptnono (talk) 21:45, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
How about this, we ad now that the international view is that they are illegal, and then when its decided about the israeli view here, we can ad it later on, ok? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:11, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Why would we leave out the Israeli view? It seems we have reasonable, official sources that give it. I think we're (more or less) in agreement on a sentence that says the international view, then the Israeli view. It's just a matter of nailing down the specific wording. ← George talk 22:14, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Because Harlan have some sources that say that the Israeli view is not that they are legal.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- harlan; so you're seriously arguing that Israel itself considers the settlements illegal? I think this is somewhat contradicted by the fact that it is still occupying the West Bank, and has not outlawed the settlements, isn't it? --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 16:15, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- I actually think the the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs page from 2007 supersedes harlan's sources, to some extent. Internally, harlan's sources seem to indicate that there is some dispute (as is common among democracies - one party has one stance, another has an opposing stance, etc. And it appears that certain individuals or groups inside Israel also consider them illegal. But we're aiming for Israel's official stance here, and the MFA is effectively Israel's official mouthpiece. ← George talk 22:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- I must say that statements by the MFA seem fully notable and worthy of inclusion in any such entry on this topic. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 22:13, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Ladies and gentlemen, as a side note, let me suggest this article by Daniel Kurtzer for getting the historical perspective on the issue, especially from the words "The ideology". --ElComandanteChe (talk) 22:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- You missed my point. We are not going to come to an agreement here to withhold relevant information from the readers, while including quirky PR statements like the one Cptnono just cited. It uses a well-known technique called "hit 'em where they ain't". It doesn't mention the Rome Statute or the prohibition against indirectly facilitating the transfer of a civilian population (that the MFA acknowledged in 2002). It also speaks as if the applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention is doubtful, although the ICJ and HJC had both already ruled on that issue in 2004. The MFA itself has subsequently stated that the Fourth Geneva Convention is applicable. See paragraph 31 [31]
- Ladies and gentlemen, as a side note, let me suggest this article by Daniel Kurtzer for getting the historical perspective on the issue, especially from the words "The ideology". --ElComandanteChe (talk) 22:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- We all know that Meron and Dayan said that the settlements violated the applicable international conventions. Those are not cherry-picked quotes. Both men were writing about a subject within the scope of their official duties and the declassified documents from the state archives have received a lot of notoriety. You are not going to "put the Genie back into the bottle" on something like that. Government officials frequently say one thing for public consumption, and another thing entirely for the official record, or before a court of law. Kretzmer claims that Dayan was the first government official to raise the disputed territories argument in a speech to the UN in 1977. See Occupation of Justice page 34. harlan (talk) 22:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- harlan - That's a well reasoned argument, but I think the issue here is where we discuss details like that. I certainly think information like what you're discussing belongs in an article discussing Israeli settlements in general, or the legality of those settlements. But I think there is simply too much information there for us to add it to every single article about every single settlement, which is what we're discussing here. I think the aim should be to have a sentence that summarizes stances generally (which I think the proposals above accomplish), while leaving the more intricate details like you're discussing to the articles on the broader settlement issue. ← George talk 22:41, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- The MOS says that significant controversies should be mentioned in the lead of the article. That is where the brief statement regarding the legality of the settlements belongs. The rest belongs in a separate article that gets mentioned in a main article template. Gorenberg and many others have written about the fact that Israeli officials knew the settlements were illegal from the very outset, and that they have made PR statements to the contrary ever since. There is nothing WP:OR, WP:Synth, or [[WP:UNDUE}} about mentioning material like the Meron and Dayan memos in an article. harlan (talk) 23:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Harlan wilkerson, does the comments from Israeli officials also cover settlements in the GH or just the PT? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:10, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- The declassified Meron and Dayan memos applied to all of the territories occupied in the Six Day War. Of course, the Golan was outside the scope of the ICJ and Beit Sourik Village cases I mentioned above. harlan (talk) 23:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Thats the view of two people then, not Israels view today. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- The position of the Israeli Supreme Court in the Elon Moreh case (cited above) that the establishment of permanent civilian settlements would be illegal was not a personal opinion. The citation that I mentioned on page 363 of "The Accidental Empire: Israel and the Birth of the Settlements, 1967–1977", Macmillan, 2007, ISBN 0805082417 is a reference to another Supreme Court case, HCJ 1661/05 The Gaza Coast Regional Council v. The Knesset et al. In that case the government and the Court both rejected the settlers arguments about the Balfour Declaration, the San Remo Conference, & etc. They said that the settlements in occupied territories were not permanent and that "most Israelis do not have ownership of the land on which they built their houses and businesses in the territory to be evacuated. They acquired their rights from the military commander, or from persons acting on his behalf. Neither the military commander nor those acting on his behalf are owners of the property, and they cannot transfer rights better than those they have." (cited in HCJ 7957/04 Mara’abe v. The Prime Minister of Israel, see page 17 [32])
- Thats the view of two people then, not Israels view today. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- The declassified Meron and Dayan memos applied to all of the territories occupied in the Six Day War. Of course, the Golan was outside the scope of the ICJ and Beit Sourik Village cases I mentioned above. harlan (talk) 23:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- Harlan wilkerson, does the comments from Israeli officials also cover settlements in the GH or just the PT? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:10, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- The MOS says that significant controversies should be mentioned in the lead of the article. That is where the brief statement regarding the legality of the settlements belongs. The rest belongs in a separate article that gets mentioned in a main article template. Gorenberg and many others have written about the fact that Israeli officials knew the settlements were illegal from the very outset, and that they have made PR statements to the contrary ever since. There is nothing WP:OR, WP:Synth, or [[WP:UNDUE}} about mentioning material like the Meron and Dayan memos in an article. harlan (talk) 23:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
- FYI, those views about the permanency of the settlements were shared by Secretary of State Rusk in 1968, when the Nahal settlements in the Golan started "taking on aspects of permanent, civilian, kibbutz-like operations", e.g. [33] In any event, we are discussing the official views of the Legal Counsel of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs that were contained in an advisory opinion written for the Prime Minister in September 1967 (Israel State Archives, 153.8/7921/3A. Legal opinion numbered as document 289-291) and the Defense Minister who established the settlements in the Golan Heights (Israeli State Archives 153.8/7920/7A, Document 60, dated October 15, 1968). Rusk, Meron, and Dayan were discussing Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 which hasn't changed in the intervening years. harlan (talk) 01:24, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- harlan, the problem is that the Israeli Supreme Court case refers only to isolated, anomalous settlements like Elon Moreh. while you are attempting to apply their language to mainstream settlements like Ariel. This is what happens when editors try to battle it out to get involved in larger issues. The Supreme Court never said it was taking a position on all land occupied by Israel since 1967. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 13:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Elon Moreh's importance stems from its requirement of declared military necessity by the military administrator to bring it into line with international law. That's the keystone on which settlement legality rests in domestic law although it's not an argument any country besides Israel is buying(perhaps because civilian population centers in possible conflict areas serve no fathomable military purpose but I digress). We could present the the FMA stuff (it's notable) but most of it has nothing to do with the legal justification approved by the Israeli judiciary. No other government/legal body buys either argument so they are both equally fringe views =X I'm also thoroughly confused by what context we are wanting to put this information (the settlement article? the short sentence in each settlement article?). Sol (talk) 17:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- If the Israeli view is more complicated then legal/illegal, then it will be to long to have it in all settlements articles. Sol Goldstone, can you summarize the Israeli view for me? Because I have read everything above but I still don't get it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- Elon Moreh's importance stems from its requirement of declared military necessity by the military administrator to bring it into line with international law. That's the keystone on which settlement legality rests in domestic law although it's not an argument any country besides Israel is buying(perhaps because civilian population centers in possible conflict areas serve no fathomable military purpose but I digress). We could present the the FMA stuff (it's notable) but most of it has nothing to do with the legal justification approved by the Israeli judiciary. No other government/legal body buys either argument so they are both equally fringe views =X I'm also thoroughly confused by what context we are wanting to put this information (the settlement article? the short sentence in each settlement article?). Sol (talk) 17:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
- harlan, the problem is that the Israeli Supreme Court case refers only to isolated, anomalous settlements like Elon Moreh. while you are attempting to apply their language to mainstream settlements like Ariel. This is what happens when editors try to battle it out to get involved in larger issues. The Supreme Court never said it was taking a position on all land occupied by Israel since 1967. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 13:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Stop the Islamization of America needs own article?
Currently only redirects to Stop Islamisation of Europe and given Park51 controversy has hundreds of WP:RS refs. Not to mention more attention to the founders' views on Israel - Palestine issues, probably into the future. Most information is at Pamela_Geller#Stop_Islamization_of_America. Just a thought in case anyone wants to way into that fray! CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:52, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
References for above
Current incivility & strong anti-Hamas POV movement at its entry
I've dealt with these problems civilly on the Talk:Hamas page, but that has been entirely ineffective, and may have attracted 'allies' of Wikifan12345 to the page. I would appreciate any outsiders taking a look in at the very recent changes there by Markovitz and Wikifan12345 and help restore what IMHO was gradually becoming an NPOV Wikipedia entry.Haberstr (talk) 04:47, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Third Intifada
The Third_Intifada#Incidents section needs looking at and probably deleting. There doesn't appear to be anything in the sources linking the incidents to a thing called the Third Intifada. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:26, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- Why does that article exist? nableezy - 18:33, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
WP:RSN discussion about CAMERA and Alex Safian
There is a discussion about CAMERA and Alex Safian at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. [34] harlan (talk) 22:15, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Etymology and toponomy of Golan heights
I have opened discussion here [35] other peoples opinions are appreciated. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:16, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
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Golan
A supposedly "new" user has been making a large number of contentious edits to articles on Israeli settlements in the Golan, removing that they are "Israeli settlements" and that they are in occupied territories. See the contribs of Kàkhvelokákh (talk · contribs). Could somebody besides me deal with this please? nableezy - 13:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- More (suspected) Drork-related antics! ← ZScarpia 23:34, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
JCPA editing
Special:Contributions/Thejerusalemcenter's edits could do with some eyes on them. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
- This seems to be just one of a series of accounts editing mainly or exclusively on Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, or on its members. See also Special:Contributions/Awg9988, Special:Contributions/EinGedi, Special:Contributions/Marissyb29, Special:Contributions/SSA87, Special:Contributions/Jcenter1, Special:Contributions/93.172.4.41. Looks like a severe case of conflict of interest. RolandR (talk) 17:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
- Type into various searches its name and name of publications/individuals critical of its kind of work and get some WP:RS info/criticism. Or name of group and things like "Israel lobby." I noticed in a quick search it allegedly started "NGO Monitor" which isn't in article. Something of interest. (Also see if any such material has been deleted.) Then if they go bonkers and try to delete it there's a case to claim it. Also, ala WP:COI you can always go to their talk pages and ask if they work there or otherwise are closely allied. Of course, one wonders if it is some naive person who thinks having three names will somehow hide the fact that it is the same person. CarolMooreDC (talk) 12:31, 13 October 2010 (UTC)