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== Navigation boxes in coaching articles (again) == |
== Navigation boxes in coaching articles (again) == |
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Since I posted about this in [[:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 17#Navigation boxes in coaches articles|a year ago]] (and had posted it at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball]] as well with the discussion held there by another user's choice), a certain user (Jweiss11) has decided that there is no consensus (which is clearly wrong.) I had posted the discussion at the College Basketball WikiProject an [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball/Archive 6#Navigation boxes in coaches articles|hour after the College football post]]. That user decided to hold the discussion there. The post read: |
Since I posted about this in [[:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football/Archive 17#Navigation boxes in coaches articles|a year ago]] (and had posted it at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball]] as well with the discussion held there by another user's choice), a certain user (Jweiss11) has decided that there is no consensus (which is clearly wrong.) I had posted the discussion at the College Basketball WikiProject an [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball/Archive 6#Navigation boxes in coaches articles|hour after the College football post]]. That user decided to hold the discussion there. The post read: |
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<blockquote>''Something needs to be done with navigation boxes like in the [[William McAvoy#External links|William McAvoy]] article. There is simply <u>way</u> too many to not be grouped together. Personally, I'd like to see them grouped like in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_McAvoy&diff=prev&oldid=713085527 this diff]. No color is needed since the coaches are at various schools. I don't care if you want to leave the default name <code>Links to related articles</code> as the title or something like <code>''Name'' coaching positions</code>, etc. [[Robert L. Mathews|This article]] is another example.''</blockquote> |
<blockquote>''Something needs to be done with navigation boxes like in the [[William McAvoy#External links|William McAvoy]] article. There is simply <u>way</u> too many to not be grouped together. Personally, I'd like to see them grouped like in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_McAvoy&diff=prev&oldid=713085527 this diff]. No color is needed since the coaches are at various schools. I don't care if you want to leave the default name <code>Links to related articles</code> as the title or something like <code>''Name'' coaching positions</code>, etc. [[Robert L. Mathews|This article]] is another example.''</blockquote> |
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NCOLLATH and GNG
For those interested in such things, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Montell Cozart includes a discussion of the interplay between WP:NCOLLATH and WP:GNG. Cbl62 (talk) 13:12, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
Score format in season article schedule tables
A discussion took place on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League a couple months ago about the "proper format for scores". A user was trying to set a consistent format for how scores would be displayed; specifically, he/she had seen "some player articles that when it mentions a loss it lists it a (for example) 17-27 loss", believed this to be wrong, and wanted to make it be "winning score-losing score" across the board instead.
The consensus agreed that it should be "winning score-losing score", but some made it clear that they were against changing the format on season articles where the relevant team was the loser, especially in schedule tables. In fact, the format used in schedule tables on season articles was really only mentioned in four different comments, with two being in favor of "winning score-losing score" and two being in favor of "relevant team's score first", i.e. not a consensus on this topic. Regardless, several users began changing the format of scores in schedule tables on seemingly random season articles, and for some reason, they only did it in FBS college football articles and not on NFL articles, even though the discussion took place on the NFL's WikiProject talk page.
To get right to it, I'm writing this post to get everyone's opinions and to set a consistent format for how scores should be displayed in college football season article schedule tables. "Relevant team's score first" is the format I've seen for years on just about every single CFB season article I've come across, as well as just about any other season article for a sports team that uses a similar schedule table, whether it be an NBA team, MLB, NFL or NHL. There are thousands of season articles with this format in FBS CFB alone. It would take an incredible amount of time to change all of them, and would result in CFB articles having a different format than every other sports articles.
So, do you support using the "relevant team's score first" format for CFB season article schedule tables? Kobra98 (talk) 21:29, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support Even though I recently reverted edits you made, I only did it based on the previous discussion. I personally am in favor of using "relevant team's score first" (first I've seen it worded that way but makes total sense). I don't see any reason to change how it has been done for years on thousands of articles. Bsuorangecrush (talk) 21:35, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- In a schedule table, the score should be listed (taking an Alabama season article as an example) with Alabama's score first. However, this only applies to schedule tables. In box scores, the road team should be listed first, and in prose, the winning team should be listed first. I realise that this seems massively inconsistent, but it is logical. – PeeJay 21:39, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support continued use of existing standard of 'School-Opponent' score format within CFB shedule tables on team articles. Most of the major portals use this convention, less ESPN from memory. How we ended up with these reverted WP:BOLD changes is unclear. UW Dawgs (talk) 23:46, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- Procedural close - The original discussion about rogue edits within CFB by a lone editor evolved into a vote without a clean proposal from a change advocate. Multiple requests to produce a thorough review of media sites for comparisons were ignored, no implementation plan has been offered, no clear rationale has been presented for changing our 10 year consensus and documentation within the CFB Project, change would fork our CFB team articles from the identical and current 10-year NFL Project consensus negating an apparent goal of "consistency," and clearly this would be a disservice to both readers and good-faith editors who are accustomized to a decade of consistency within the documentation and consensus of both Projects. If specific editors want change, they need to clearly present both the problem and comprehensive solution in a coherent manner to justify undoing a decade of work under consensus. UW Dawgs (talk) 15:07, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support for team–opponent score in everything, not just the schedule table. That is the more commonly used format, whether they win or lose. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 00:16, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment For what it's worth, the discussion on this on the NFL project took place at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 14#Score format. There was a unanimous agreement to list winning scores first. Lizard (talk) 00:24, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- This is not true. You need to go back and read each comment. As I said, there were multiple people who were not in favor of changing the format on season articles, especially in schedule tables. That is why I made this post. The OP of that post was talking about "some player articles" he had seen, and he never got any more specific than that. Kobra98 (talk) 00:34, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Admittedly, what was voted on was pretty vague. But formatting scores differently depending on the situation doesn't make sense to me. We can't expect editors to know of these arbitrary conventions, especially not IPs, who do the brunt of the work when it comes to tables and such. Lizard (talk) 00:41, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- I just don't see how going against the format of every other sports' articles and spending an ungodly amount of time changing the format of the thousands of CFB season articles is a viable option. Kobra98 (talk) 02:04, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- The amount of time required is only "ungodly" if people keep reverting the progress that's already been made. In response to the consensus in the prior discussion, I had made the changes on the 2016 articles and was plugging away at prior years. Cbl62 (talk) 03:32, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- The amount of time it takes to change is irrelevant to this discussion. This discussion should be to gain a consensus. — X96lee15 (talk) 21:46, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- That doesn't make any sense. I'm giving a reason that people should support my proposal, in order to gain a consensus. Anything related to the two proposals is obviously relevant to the discussion. Kobra98 (talk) 22:52, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm just saying the time it will take to change the existing format to a different format should be taken into account when making a decision. This discussion should choose the "right" solution, not the "easy" solution. — X96lee15 (talk) 23:05, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- I understand what you're saying. If the consensus here feels that the right decision is to spend the time needed to change the thousands of articles to the new format, then that's what should happen. My point is that I believe there's absolutely no reason for this, and I fear that if the consensus is to change the format, it won't get done. I want everyone to know the long process ahead so that we don't just decide to change the format and then do it on just a hundred or so and leave thousands unchanged. Kobra98 (talk) 23:15, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm just saying the time it will take to change the existing format to a different format should be taken into account when making a decision. This discussion should choose the "right" solution, not the "easy" solution. — X96lee15 (talk) 23:05, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- That doesn't make any sense. I'm giving a reason that people should support my proposal, in order to gain a consensus. Anything related to the two proposals is obviously relevant to the discussion. Kobra98 (talk) 22:52, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- I just don't see how going against the format of every other sports' articles and spending an ungodly amount of time changing the format of the thousands of CFB season articles is a viable option. Kobra98 (talk) 02:04, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Admittedly, what was voted on was pretty vague. But formatting scores differently depending on the situation doesn't make sense to me. We can't expect editors to know of these arbitrary conventions, especially not IPs, who do the brunt of the work when it comes to tables and such. Lizard (talk) 00:41, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- This is not true. You need to go back and read each comment. As I said, there were multiple people who were not in favor of changing the format on season articles, especially in schedule tables. That is why I made this post. The OP of that post was talking about "some player articles" he had seen, and he never got any more specific than that. Kobra98 (talk) 00:34, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- I honestly see this as a language variant-esque issue. It should be decided by those who do the majority of the content work on the article. Different sources present wins/losses and scores in different ways. There's no strong rationale for uniformity on this type of thing across all articles. I plan to keep doing what I'm doing in my Canadian football articles, at least, which is "player's team's score–other team's score". I would never dream of enforcing my opinion on anyone else for this, and I really can't see why anyone would want to force their opinion on me. Neither is wrong. As a serious question, why is this something we should care about? Especially when any time spent changing the articles of editors who prefer a different variant of listing scores could instead be spent on improving the articles of major Hall of Fame football players who have measly little stubs on Wikipedia? ~ Rob13Talk 02:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't have a great reason for why we should care about this, other than that this all came about because of editors making mass edits on articles across WP College football. I opposed their edits and they claimed that they had had a discussion with a consensus that said they're right. I disagreed so I made this post. Another reason is that I'm obsessed with consistency. Kobra98 (talk) 02:22, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Kobra's proposal; support consensus reached in prior discussion. If we are striving to be an authoritative encyclopedia, it looks kinda "amateur hour" if some charts are done one way and others done another way. Crash Underride started a talk page discussion to allow us to achieve consistency, and a consensus was reached to have winning score first. That consensus is consistent with how ESPN formats its results tables (see here) and how most college football programs also format their results tables. See, e.g., (Oklahoma, Michigan, USC [click on 2016 season]). Cbl62 (talk) 02:45, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- I've said it many times but I will say it again. No, a consensus on the score format in schedule tables was NOT reached. The original post was referring to what the OP had seen on "some player articles". He did not specify season articles and/or schedule tables. The format used in season articles and/or schedule tables was only mentioned by about four people; two were in favor of leaving the format as is, two were in favor of changing the format. That is absolutely not a consensus. Kobra98 (talk) 23:06, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Also, Kobra's assertion that his preferred format is used in every Wikipedia article across all sports is wrong. Wikipedia is a mixed bag on this -- thus the effort at conformity. Examples across Wikipedia using the "winning score first" include NFL (see 2010 Detroit Lions, 2009 Cleveland Browns, 2008 Buffalo Bills, 2007 Green Bay Packers, 2007 Chicago Bears, 2007 Philadelphia Eagles), NCAA football (2007-2008 Iowa), MLB (2010 Detroit Tigers, 2010 Los Angeles Dodgers), CFL (2010 Toronto Argonauts), MLS (see 2010 Toronto FC). Cbl62 (talk) 03:48, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- You're right, I should not have used such definite wording. Every single Wikipedia sports article does not have the exact same format. That isn't my point though. My point is that the vast majority of season articles of any sport that uses a similar schedule table to CFB (so I'm not referring to MLS) uses the same format, "relevant team's score first". The fact that you're trying to prove me wrong and were only able to find 11 different articles that use the format you support proves my point. That is such a small, negligible amount that saying "Wikipedia is a mixed bag on this" is incredibly misleading. How can you compare 11 articles to tens of thousands? If I found you 11 articles that used the ESPN.com rankings for the schedule tables rather than the AP or Coaches', would you say that "Wikipedia is a mixed bag on this" and decide we need to have a discussion? Kobra98 (talk) 23:03, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Uh, no. It's not that I was only able to find 11 such articles. There are many, many, many such articles using the "winning team" first format. Your assertion that the count is "11" vs. "tens of thousands" is ludicrous. Cbl62 (talk) 03:19, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- It is truly a "mixed bag". Using just one NFL team as an example, here are 57 Chicago Bears yearly schedule charts using "winning team's score" first: 1943-1949, 1951-1964, 1966, 1968, 1970-1972, 1975-1976, 1978-1984, 1986-2001, 2003-2007, and 2009. Hundreds and hundreds of additional examples of the "mixed bag" are available if one cares to take a look. Cbl62 (talk) 07:51, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- A further review shows that the vast majority of the NFL team/season "Schedule" charts use the "winner first" format. Here is a non-exhaustive list of over 1,100 examples using the "winning team first" approach: 81 Giants (1926-1947, 1949, 1951-1963, 1965-1966, 1968-1980, 1983-1985, 1988, 1992-1999, 2002-2008), 79 Cardinals (1920-1943, 1945-1946, 1949, 1951-1966, 1968-1972, 1974, 1977, 1979-1995, 1997-2002, 2004-2009), 71 Lions (1930-1946, 1948-1951, 1953-1966, 1968-1970, 1973-1981, 1983-2000, 2003-2006, 2009-2010), 63 Redskins (1932-1941, 1943-1960, 1962-1966, 1968-1980, 1985-1986, 1988-1990, 1993-1998, 2000-2001, 2004-2007), 62 Packers (1921-1932, 1934-1943, 1945-1949, 1951-1958, 1960, 1964-1965, 1968-1969, 1972-1978, 1980-1982, 1988-1990, 1992-1995, 2005-2009), 60 Eagles (1933-1949, 1951-1959, 1961-1966, 1969-1984, 1986-1987, 1989-2003, 2005-2009), 58 Rams (1937-1944, 1946-1949, 1951-1961, 1963-1966, 1968, 1970-1978, 1980-1983, 1986-1988, 1990, 1992-1997, 1999-2002, 2005-2007), 57 Chicago Bears (listed above), 55 Jets (1960-1966, 1969-1977, 1979, 1981-1995, 1997-2009), 51 Browns (1946-1947, 1951-1963, 1966, 1968, 1971-1975, 1977-1995, 1999-2003, 2005-2009), 49 Chiefs (1961, 1964-1966, 1968, 1970, 1972, 1974-1976, 1978-1984, 1986-1996, 1998-1999, 2001-2009), 48 Steelers (1941-1943, 1945-1949, 1952-1960, 1962-1965, 1970-1972, and 1979-2002), 40 Chargers (1960-1962, 1964-1966, 1968-1981, 1983-1993, 1995-1997, 1999, 2002-2004, 2007-2008), 38 Bills (1960-1966, 1968-1972, 1975-1979, 1981, 1983-1988, 1990, 1992, 1996-2000, 2002-2006, 2008-2009), 38 Raiders (1960-1962, 1964-1969, 1971-1974, 1977-1978, 1984-1986, 1988-2007), 36 Dolphins (1966, 1968-1971, 1973, 1976-1977, 1980-1997, 1999-2000, 2002-2007), 33 Saints (1969-1974, 1976-1979, 1981-1989, 1991-1997, 2000-2005, 2007), 33 49ers (1946-1962, 1964, 1966, 1968, 1971-1980, 1982, 2004, 2007), 31 Oilers/Titans (1961-1966, 1968-1971, 1974-1977, 1979, 1981-1994, 1996-1997), and 30 Cowboys (1961-1966, 1968, 1972-1976, 1978-1981, 1987-1991, 1998-2004, 2006, 2008), 25 Bengals (1968, 1979-1987, 1989-1992, 1996-2003, 2007-2009), 20 Falcons (1966, 1968-1972, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1983, 1987-1989, 1995, 1999, 2002-2003, 2007-2009, 15 Dodgers (1930-1944), 9 Yellow Jackets (1923-1931), 8 Independents (1920-1927), 7 Steam Roller (1925-1931), 6 Pros (1921-1927), 6 Red Jackets (1921-1924, 1929-1930), 4 Stapletons (1929-1932). Cbl62 (talk) 17:37, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- 1) Irrelevant (this is CFB, WP:OTHERSTUFF). 2) Do you find it odd that these NFL wiki example articles seem to stop around 2008 after the NFL project explicitly formalized "Team-Opponent" format within the schedule? 3) Since you're trying to change consensus, why does this (and the prior NFL discussion which didn't reach new consensus to change our existing consensus on the schedule treatment) omit a thorough review on national media websites for their schedule treatment on their equivalent team pages? -that would be one of my first actions if attempting to convince editors to change course on 10 years of consensus and documentation across two projects. UW Dawgs (talk) 18:05, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- The premise of Kobra's argument was that every article in every sport uses his preferred format. I rebutted that with 11 examples. He then said 11 examples were trivial and that the overwhelming majority use his format. Accordingly, and to rebut his unsupported assertions, I have provided these examples. Can you please provide a link to the discussion where you claim that the the NFL project "explicitly formalized" your preferred approach? Cbl62 (talk) 18:12, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- 1) Irrelevant (this is CFB, WP:OTHERSTUFF). 2) Do you find it odd that these NFL wiki example articles seem to stop around 2008 after the NFL project explicitly formalized "Team-Opponent" format within the schedule? 3) Since you're trying to change consensus, why does this (and the prior NFL discussion which didn't reach new consensus to change our existing consensus on the schedule treatment) omit a thorough review on national media websites for their schedule treatment on their equivalent team pages? -that would be one of my first actions if attempting to convince editors to change course on 10 years of consensus and documentation across two projects. UW Dawgs (talk) 18:05, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- A further review shows that the vast majority of the NFL team/season "Schedule" charts use the "winner first" format. Here is a non-exhaustive list of over 1,100 examples using the "winning team first" approach: 81 Giants (1926-1947, 1949, 1951-1963, 1965-1966, 1968-1980, 1983-1985, 1988, 1992-1999, 2002-2008), 79 Cardinals (1920-1943, 1945-1946, 1949, 1951-1966, 1968-1972, 1974, 1977, 1979-1995, 1997-2002, 2004-2009), 71 Lions (1930-1946, 1948-1951, 1953-1966, 1968-1970, 1973-1981, 1983-2000, 2003-2006, 2009-2010), 63 Redskins (1932-1941, 1943-1960, 1962-1966, 1968-1980, 1985-1986, 1988-1990, 1993-1998, 2000-2001, 2004-2007), 62 Packers (1921-1932, 1934-1943, 1945-1949, 1951-1958, 1960, 1964-1965, 1968-1969, 1972-1978, 1980-1982, 1988-1990, 1992-1995, 2005-2009), 60 Eagles (1933-1949, 1951-1959, 1961-1966, 1969-1984, 1986-1987, 1989-2003, 2005-2009), 58 Rams (1937-1944, 1946-1949, 1951-1961, 1963-1966, 1968, 1970-1978, 1980-1983, 1986-1988, 1990, 1992-1997, 1999-2002, 2005-2007), 57 Chicago Bears (listed above), 55 Jets (1960-1966, 1969-1977, 1979, 1981-1995, 1997-2009), 51 Browns (1946-1947, 1951-1963, 1966, 1968, 1971-1975, 1977-1995, 1999-2003, 2005-2009), 49 Chiefs (1961, 1964-1966, 1968, 1970, 1972, 1974-1976, 1978-1984, 1986-1996, 1998-1999, 2001-2009), 48 Steelers (1941-1943, 1945-1949, 1952-1960, 1962-1965, 1970-1972, and 1979-2002), 40 Chargers (1960-1962, 1964-1966, 1968-1981, 1983-1993, 1995-1997, 1999, 2002-2004, 2007-2008), 38 Bills (1960-1966, 1968-1972, 1975-1979, 1981, 1983-1988, 1990, 1992, 1996-2000, 2002-2006, 2008-2009), 38 Raiders (1960-1962, 1964-1969, 1971-1974, 1977-1978, 1984-1986, 1988-2007), 36 Dolphins (1966, 1968-1971, 1973, 1976-1977, 1980-1997, 1999-2000, 2002-2007), 33 Saints (1969-1974, 1976-1979, 1981-1989, 1991-1997, 2000-2005, 2007), 33 49ers (1946-1962, 1964, 1966, 1968, 1971-1980, 1982, 2004, 2007), 31 Oilers/Titans (1961-1966, 1968-1971, 1974-1977, 1979, 1981-1994, 1996-1997), and 30 Cowboys (1961-1966, 1968, 1972-1976, 1978-1981, 1987-1991, 1998-2004, 2006, 2008), 25 Bengals (1968, 1979-1987, 1989-1992, 1996-2003, 2007-2009), 20 Falcons (1966, 1968-1972, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1983, 1987-1989, 1995, 1999, 2002-2003, 2007-2009, 15 Dodgers (1930-1944), 9 Yellow Jackets (1923-1931), 8 Independents (1920-1927), 7 Steam Roller (1925-1931), 6 Pros (1921-1927), 6 Red Jackets (1921-1924, 1929-1930), 4 Stapletons (1929-1932). Cbl62 (talk) 17:37, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- It is truly a "mixed bag". Using just one NFL team as an example, here are 57 Chicago Bears yearly schedule charts using "winning team's score" first: 1943-1949, 1951-1964, 1966, 1968, 1970-1972, 1975-1976, 1978-1984, 1986-2001, 2003-2007, and 2009. Hundreds and hundreds of additional examples of the "mixed bag" are available if one cares to take a look. Cbl62 (talk) 07:51, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Uh, no. It's not that I was only able to find 11 such articles. There are many, many, many such articles using the "winning team" first format. Your assertion that the count is "11" vs. "tens of thousands" is ludicrous. Cbl62 (talk) 03:19, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- You're right, I should not have used such definite wording. Every single Wikipedia sports article does not have the exact same format. That isn't my point though. My point is that the vast majority of season articles of any sport that uses a similar schedule table to CFB (so I'm not referring to MLS) uses the same format, "relevant team's score first". The fact that you're trying to prove me wrong and were only able to find 11 different articles that use the format you support proves my point. That is such a small, negligible amount that saying "Wikipedia is a mixed bag on this" is incredibly misleading. How can you compare 11 articles to tens of thousands? If I found you 11 articles that used the ESPN.com rankings for the schedule tables rather than the AP or Coaches', would you say that "Wikipedia is a mixed bag on this" and decide we need to have a discussion? Kobra98 (talk) 23:03, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Kobra98: It appears that you have selectively invited particular persons to participate in this discussion. See, e.g., your notices to PeeJay and DragonFury, both of whom participated in the prior discussion and both of whom you stated here that you believed supported your position. This type of selective notification to individuals you believe to be supporters of your position is seriously frowned upon. If people are to be invited, it should include all who participated in the earlier discussion. Your selective notices raise issues with respect to potentially violating WP:CANVAS/WP:VOTESTACK. Cbl62 (talk) 06:48, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Except I posted that same message on nine other user's talk pages. I didn't do it for "all who participated in the earlier discussion" because, as I've said time and time again, most of the people in the prior discussion weren't referring to the format in schedule tables, which is what this discussion is about. Kobra98 (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Uh no. There were many in the prior proposal who supported the "winner first" concept, and you chose not to notify any of them that you had opened this discussion. Your decision to only notify those who you believed supported your position is a clear violation of policy. Cbl62 (talk) 03:19, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't understand how you can miss my point so many times. If you don't get what I'm saying, please ask for clarification rather than just ignoring my point, because I'm really trying to get this across.
- Ok, here it is: the prior discussion that took place on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League was NOT, I repeat, NOT specifically about schedule tables. The format used for schedule tables was only mentioned by four different users, with two being in favor of "winning score-losing score" and two being in favor of "relevant team's score first". I did not notify everyone in that discussion because there were very few who were talking about schedule tables, which is what this discussion is about. What exactly do you not get about this? Kobra98 (talk) 16:33, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- I "get" it very clearly. What you need to "get" is the letter and spirit of WP:VOTESTACK. It says that when you open a discussion to reconsider a prior debate, you should not (or, as you might say "NOT, I repeat, NOT") send invite notices only to the prior participants who supported your position. Instead, you should notify "all" sides on the issue. Here, you provided invite notices to the persons (PeeJay and Dragonfury) who, according to your own comments, supported your position. You did NOT give similar talk page notifications to those (e.g., x96lee15, CrashUnderride, Lizard, Dissident93, me, etc.) who advocated the "winning team first" approach. As for your suggestion that these other participants weren't talking about tables, the comments were broad and encompassing in support of the "winning team first" approach, and at least x96lee15, CrashUnderride and I expressly talked the tables, yet you did not give notices even to those three that you had opened a new discussion here. Your actions in this regard were a clear violation of WP:VOTESTACK. I'm not asking for any punitive actions to be taken, but it would be nice if, instead of angrily denying you did anything wrong, you simply "owned" your mistake and said something along the lines of, "Gee, I didn't realize that before. It won't happen again." Cbl62 (talk) 17:16, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm just pinging everyone from the earlier discussion who hasn't commented here yet. @StarScream1007, DragonFury, Crash Underride, Sabbatino, TheCatalyst31, Dissident93, MisterCake, and Lincolning: You participated earlier at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Football_League/Archive_14#Score_format and are invited to add your opinion on the related topic here of score formate on team season articles. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 15:46, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. I've also now left a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League. Cbl62 (talk) 16:36, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm just pinging everyone from the earlier discussion who hasn't commented here yet. @StarScream1007, DragonFury, Crash Underride, Sabbatino, TheCatalyst31, Dissident93, MisterCake, and Lincolning: You participated earlier at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Football_League/Archive_14#Score_format and are invited to add your opinion on the related topic here of score formate on team season articles. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 15:46, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- I "get" it very clearly. What you need to "get" is the letter and spirit of WP:VOTESTACK. It says that when you open a discussion to reconsider a prior debate, you should not (or, as you might say "NOT, I repeat, NOT") send invite notices only to the prior participants who supported your position. Instead, you should notify "all" sides on the issue. Here, you provided invite notices to the persons (PeeJay and Dragonfury) who, according to your own comments, supported your position. You did NOT give similar talk page notifications to those (e.g., x96lee15, CrashUnderride, Lizard, Dissident93, me, etc.) who advocated the "winning team first" approach. As for your suggestion that these other participants weren't talking about tables, the comments were broad and encompassing in support of the "winning team first" approach, and at least x96lee15, CrashUnderride and I expressly talked the tables, yet you did not give notices even to those three that you had opened a new discussion here. Your actions in this regard were a clear violation of WP:VOTESTACK. I'm not asking for any punitive actions to be taken, but it would be nice if, instead of angrily denying you did anything wrong, you simply "owned" your mistake and said something along the lines of, "Gee, I didn't realize that before. It won't happen again." Cbl62 (talk) 17:16, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Uh no. There were many in the prior proposal who supported the "winner first" concept, and you chose not to notify any of them that you had opened this discussion. Your decision to only notify those who you believed supported your position is a clear violation of policy. Cbl62 (talk) 03:19, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Except I posted that same message on nine other user's talk pages. I didn't do it for "all who participated in the earlier discussion" because, as I've said time and time again, most of the people in the prior discussion weren't referring to the format in schedule tables, which is what this discussion is about. Kobra98 (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Kobra's proposal; support consensus reached in prior discussion In American prose, you say, "Team A lost 24–14." This is used in reliable sources everywhere and I don't think can be argued. The same should apply to to tables. Tables are already using a "W" or "L" and color coding, so there is no need need to go away from how it is done in prose. — X96lee15 (talk) 21:40, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- This isn't about article prose broadly, it's narrowly about the schedule table. Use of the 'College-Opponent' score format within the schedule table is not a proposal, it is our long-standing consensus format. UW Dawgs (talk) 03:59, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yup, agree that this isn't about article prose. I'm talking specifically about the schedule table too. It should match the prose because there is no reason to differ from that (especially since the rows are color coded and there is a "W"). The schedule table (and regular tables and infoboxes for that matter) should match prose whenever possible. — X96lee15 (talk) 04:32, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- This isn't about article prose broadly, it's narrowly about the schedule table. Use of the 'College-Opponent' score format within the schedule table is not a proposal, it is our long-standing consensus format. UW Dawgs (talk) 03:59, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Kobra's proposal; support consensus reached in prior discussion Per my !vote previously at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Football_League/Archive_14#Score_format: "winning score listed first. It's how it usually listed in most sources." Consensus was quite clear before that it applied to all scores, even ones in tables. The first sentience of the proposal unconditionally states: "Can we make it clear to everyone that the proper format for scores, regardless of win or loss is the same?" That applied to tables in season articles as well.—Bagumba (talk) 15:30, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment I mentioned this in the previous discussion, but it's even more relevant if we're talking about schedule tables for college football; what do we do about forfeits if we put the "winning" score first? The (forfeit) note next to the score helps, but I can still see people being confused as to whether a team initially lost but was given the win by forfeit, or if they actually scored more points but their opponent somehow forfeited anyway (even though I'm pretty sure that's not possible). TheCatalyst31 Reaction•Creation 16:19, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Kobra's proposal; support consensus reached in prior discussion, per above arguments. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 16:29, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- Why don't we all just check out what Pro Football Reference do? In their team-specific schedule listings (see here), they list the relevant team first, and they even include a "W", "L" or "T" for good measure! – PeeJay 17:46, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- The Pro Football Reference table has columns for "team score" and "opponent score". It's always going to be listed in that order because they're separate columns. That doesn't apply here, IMO. Our schedule tables just have a single column that includes "w/l/t and scores". — X96lee15 (talk) 19:32, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- Opppose: The idea I have provided numerous times regarding tables/scorboxes being away team (left/top) / home team (right/bottom) as has been done by ESPN, CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox, NFL Network and numerous others for years. As for being in prose, Oppose Kobra's proposal; support consensus reached in prior discussion. (talk page stalker) CrashUnderride 18:16, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Crash Underride: ESPN formats its results tables as "winning team first". See here. Cbl62 (talk) 18:22, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Crash Underride: Yes, in a neutral article about a game, the road team would be listed first, but in articles with a bias toward a particular team, it's usually either that team's score that comes first or the winning score. – PeeJay 18:35, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Cbl62: I'm referring to tables for things such as these tables, note how the game in Washington has Washington (home team) on the bottom and Dallas (visitors) on top. That is what I'm talking about. That and here. For single games, note how Pittsburgh was the home team for the game and are on the right (correct) side and Dallas, the away team is on the left. In the link you provided, if you're talking about the 2016 schedule table on the left, that includes "@14 WASH L 48-13", that's fine, as long as the proper format for the score is used, winning score-losing score. @PeeJay2K3: why should it? Look at any article from ESPN, Sports Illustrated, NFL.com, Fox Sports, etc. and you'll see that in an article written about the Dallas Cowboys (or any team for that matter) the scores are always written in prose as winning-losing. So, "articles with a bias toward a particular team" shouldn't mean squat, after all, don't we want consistency, uniformity, etc.? (talk page stalker) CrashUnderride 20:42, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I have watched the discussion evolve over the past few days and I'd like to weigh in here. In prose, no matter which article we are talking about, winning score should always come first. It's awkward to talk about a "10–20 loss" in prose or when speaking. But there's a utility in having relevant team score first in the schedule tables. That allows you to quickly scan up and down a team's schedule and see their relative offensive and defensive scoring performance easily. We don't read tables the same way we read prose. However, I do see that many reliable sources like ESPN and many other parts of Wikipedia like WP:NFL, use winning score first in such tables. A bit of history here. Back in 2009–10, I stubbed out all of the missing Michigan football articles. This was back when very few programs had such history established here on Wikipedia. At the time, I used winning score first in the schedule tables. I assume I did so because I observed that to be the prevailing standard at the time. However, since then, the prevailing standard shifted to relevant team score first. That is what we see in the vast majority of college football schedule tables. This appears to be the case for college basketball and other college sports as well. I don't think we should assume we have a consensus to switch college football schedule tables to winning score first. That should be determined by the outcome of this discussion. We should loop WP:CBB and other projects that cover American college sports in here as well to get a unified consensus. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:45, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- Also, box scores for specific games should list road team first. That it how is typically done in reliable sources and how we have typically done it here on Wikipedia. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:47, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Recap:
- The NFL project had an inconclusive discussion in December 2016 about the format of the game scores broadly. Scores exist in both prose and schedule tables, with that discussion both referencing and omitting that important distinction in various comments.
- The NFL project discussion did not review or reference the NFL project's existing documentation.
- The NFL project discussion did not attempt to audit the major media portals (ESPN, Fox, CBS, and ~10 similar), local media (tv, newspaper), or official team/league sites to observe their treatment of the game scores displayed on a single team's schedule page (or schedule section).
- The discussion outcome was no relevant NFL project documentation was changed, nor were the 2016 NFL team articles globally changed (which helps steer the new 2017 articles in my view) as no new consensus had emerged.
- An editor later began to change the score format in schedules in historic CFB team articles from being CFB Project-conformant to non-conformant, then later began identical non-conformant edits to 2016 CFB articles while explicitly using that specific NFL Project's dicussion as justification in edit summaries
- These CFB edits were made directly against the CFB Project's existing documentation and without any discussion or consensus to repeal our long-standing consensus.
- A second editor noticed the WP:BOLD changes to our 2016 CFB articles and globally reverted those 2016 articles to comply with our CFB Project consensus.
- The second editor also immediately notified the first editor on their Talk and initiated this CFB Project discussion. Kudos!
- That user Talk page discussion is now as long and contentious as this discussion, likely because no new NFL consensus was ever reached or implemented.
- This specific dicussion has now been overtly mispresented as being about supporting or rejecting the OP's desire to change consensus, when in fact they (inartfully in spots) initiated a good-faith discussion about non-conforming edits, made by a lone editor, which used invalid rationale, and were against our long-standing CFB Project consensus.
- This overt misrepresentation led to apparent confusion in some good-faith CFB Project editors within this discussion that we were vetting a proposal from the OP to revert established consensus, which is clearly false.
- No one has initated any proposal to change the CFB Project's long-standing consensus treatment of schedules.
- Clearly it would have been ideal if such a proposal to change our consensus was initiated by an editor wishing to change our consensus, who supported their idea with a wide analysis and links, articulated their view of some presumed defect in our long-standing consensus, and articulated how we would change the litany of articles created in compliance with our consensus. That didn't occur, likely because there is currently only a lone editor using the NFL Project as rationale to replace long-standing CFB Project consensus with their preferred format.
Prose
- The Wikipedia:Manual of Style lightly touches on this (see "a 51–30 win" section and relevant text)
- The AP Stylebook certainly doesn't control, but does inform. Here is a link to a rewrite, as I cannot provide you with the book. "In this tutorial you will learn tips on how to write a AP styled sports story by learning when to capitalize, how to write out numbers and scores, and when to use abbreviations." & "put a hyphen between scores (winning score goes first)."
- Another AP example here "The Giants defeated the Lions 14-7 (No comma between the team and the score)."
- In the NFL discussion, most folks had an intuitive sense of "Winning-Losing" (or "Higher-Lower" if you like) being "correct" in prose, as most professional North American sport journalists are trained in and will conform to AP style.
- A single news anecdote may not be fully helpful, but here is NY Times story in context the NFL (not one team). The section is about Dak Presscot of the Cowboys and reads "The game was a return to form for Prescott, who threw two interceptions in last week’s 10-7 loss to the Giants." (rather than "last week's 7-10 loss"). This aligns with our gut instinct for "Winning-Losing" format in prose because that's how journalist are generally trained to write and the format you've spent years reading.
- I think we have near-unanimity here, though the NFL discussion didn't touch on MOS or editorial norms such as AP.
Data tables are not Prose
- MOS has a distinct page at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Tables which is great context that data grids are distinct from prose.
If an editor was inclined to initiate a proposal to change our existing 10-year consensus within both projects for our "Team-Opponent" format in the schedule tables, a good place to start is familiarizing yourself with our Project documentation, seeing what other media sites do, then initiating an overt discussion about specifically changing the schedule tables standards via each Project's Talk pages, and explain the need for other editors change their conformant edits to your new desired standard. None of that has occurred. So we are left with good-faith editors stepping into a void to resolve an unarticulated problem informed with their personal biases and preferences, rather than by our existing consensus and documentation.
While explicitly WP:AGF, personally I would be mortified and apologetic to this Project with this fact pattern of using a flimsy discussion from another Project Talk page as the stated rationale to initiate rounds of disruptive edits explicitly against ten years of our consensus and documentation, without first initiating any discussion and establishing a new consensus within the CFB Project, and then updating the CFB Project documentation accordlingly. This behavior is simply bizarre and explains why good-faith editors are voting against this "proposal" (it is not) and citing existing prior "consensus" (there is none) from a months-old NFL Project dicussion which failed to create new consensus, change our 2016 NFL articles, or modify our relevant NFL Project documentation. UW Dawgs (talk) 22:51, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
- @UW Dawgs: Notwithstanding your rambling, angry, and unduly confrontational wall of words, and setting aside your personal attacks ("mortified", "bizarre", "overtly misrepresented"), I respectfully disagree. Several experienced and respected editors, including Bagumba, x96lee14 and me, read the prior consensus the same way. Moreover, your desire to read "near-unanimity" into the split vote above (ignoring votes cast by Bagumba, x96lee15, cbl62, and Dissident 93) raises questions about either your good faith or arithmetic capacity. Crash Underride began the discussion to bring some uniformity to the subject. I never felt strongly as to which format we choose. The prior discussion closed in favor of "winning team first", and I began the highly labor-intensive effort of conforming articles to that consensus. If the new discussion again closes in favor of "winning team first", I will firmly commit within the next 30 days to conform all NFL articles to reflect that consensus.
If the new discussion closes the other way, will you do the same, i.e., firmly commit to change within the next 30 days the 1,100 NFL "winning team first" schedule tables (which I have now listed) to reflect the new consensus??? Consistency is my goal, and if you are willing to make that commitment, I will gladly change my vote. Well?Cbl62 (talk) 00:56, 12 March 2017 (UTC)- I'll quote myself here as to what I would support: "{{Ping|Cbl62}} I'm referring to tables for things such as these tables, note how the game in Washington has Washington (home team) on the bottom and Dallas (visitors) on top. That is what I'm talking about. That and here. For single games, note how Pittsburgh was the home team for the game and are on the right (correct) side and Dallas, the away team is on the left. In the link you provided, if you're talking about the 2016 schedule table on the left, that includes "@14 WASH L 48-13", that's fine, as long as the proper format for the score is used, winning score-losing score. {{Ping|PeeJay2K3}} why should it? Look at any article from ESPN, Sports Illustrated, NFL.com, Fox Sports, etc. and you'll see that in an article written about the Dallas Cowboys (or any team for that matter) the scores are always written in prose as winning-losing. So, "articles with a bias toward a particular team" shouldn't mean squat, after all, don't we want consistency, uniformity, etc.?"
- However to say that "no new NFL consensus was reached" is a bit of an overstatement, a consensus was reached, for prose. Also: "The NFL project discussion did not attempt to audit the major media portals (ESPN, Fox, CBS, and ~10 similar), local media (tv, newspaper), or official team/league sites to observe their treatment of the game scores displayed on a single team's schedule page (or schedule section)." isn't important, because as I stated before, "'articles with a bias toward a particular team' shouldn't (meant to say 'should') mean squat, after all, don't we want consistency, uniformity, etc.?" All articles are supposed to be neutral towards the subject matter, therefore they the score format should follow consensus. (talk page stalker) CrashUnderride 08:09, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Crash Underride: In that discussion, you also had the following exchange with x96lee15. X96lee15 said: "I guess these are the tables I'm referencing: 2015 UCF Knights football team#Schedule. These hurt me to look at." You replied: "Yeah, those are in the improper format. . . . " That is what this discussion is about. Do you still hold the view you expressed there? Cbl62 (talk) 09:38, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Cbl62: thanks for linking that, I had to go and look. What I meant when I said "improper format" was the score being listed as 7–31, etc. As I've said, I'm 100% against the the losing score, ever, coming before the winning score. The table itself is fine. It's the score format that I had and still have a problem with in that table. (talk page stalker) CrashUnderride 09:55, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- That's what I thought. Thanks for clarifying. Cbl62 (talk) 10:09, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- I can see why you would want uniformity in style between prose and tabulated data, but it doesn't always work that way. If you're trying to present a statistical record, surely it makes sense to give the reader information in as intelligible a manner as possible. To me, that means presenting the schedule table slightly differently; as Jweiss11 pointed out earlier, there is a utility in having the relevant team's score come first consistently, as then you can see at-a-glance how their offense/defense performed from game to game without having to mentally process whether they won or were playing at home. Simply having their score first is useful and logically sensible. Obviously I would never suggest this for prose, or for an article that deals with multiple teams (such as 2016–17 NFL playoffs), but for articles about a specific team, it makes perfect sense to present the info in this way. If it helps, you could do what I've done at 2016–17 Manchester United F.C. season and have a column header that specifically indicates that the relevant team's score comes first, or put it in a note at the bottom of the table. You say that a bias towards a particular team violates Wikipedia's policy on neutrality, but I have to disagree; in an article on the New England Patriots, it isn't non-neutral to list their score first – the article is about that team after all – and any suggestion that such a practice violates WP:NPOV could almost be taken to mean that you disagree with having articles on specific teams on the whole. – PeeJay 10:57, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PeeJay2K3: at least ping me next time. lol. Actually, no, it doesn't mean I disagree with having articles on specific teams on the whole. That logical fallacy is asinine if you ask me, not to mention you were putting words into my mouth. How many times do I have to say it, winning-losing. Away left / top, home bottom / right. If each tale has the same format and lists the teams name with the score, there, done no problem. People would see the teams' name with the score right there so it's not hard to find. You make it sound like they'd have to search all over the section / article for the score. How are these so horrible? They're exactly what I'm talking about, as for these, note how the games are colored, green for wins and red for losses, with the score in the proper winning-losing format. Yeah, it's really hard to know how the team did.</sarcsm> lol. (talk page stalker) CrashUnderride 11:26, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- Apologies for misrepresenting you. However, you have again failed to grasp the argument. Sure, it's not rocket science to do some minor mental gymnastics and rearrange the scoreline in your head, but if we can present the scoreline in such a way that the team in question always has their own score on the left in tables and the opponent on the right, then readers can see at a glance how they did over the course of a few games or even the whole season. The colours are nice, but I'm not talking about simply being able to see which team won, but also the margin of victory and how the number of points scored by the team vs their opponents varied throughout the season. Also, you don't necessarily need to have the name of the team next to the scoreline, since we're talking about articles about a specific team, therefore it can be assumed that we're talking about the same subject throughout; the only team name that is needed in the table is the name of the opponent. Not sure why you're suggesting I think the {{Americanfootballbox}} template is so bad – I actually think it's a very useful way of displaying details about individual games; we're talking about the overall schedule tables, the ones that display all 17 weeks of the NFL season (sorry, I'm not particularly familiar with college football). – PeeJay 12:41, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PeeJay2K3: again, ping me bro! lol. Look, I'm getting sick and tired of this debate. Here's how it's done for literally every sport in America, winning-losing, why the hell would tables be any different? They wouldn't and shouldn't. The readers aren't stupid, you're acting like it takes the power of a nuclear bomb to look, literally from one side of a dash to another. I'm sorry, but you're entire argument sucks. You're acting like the readers are dumb little kids that need everything made easier for them because they're too stupid to be able to look — that far away. It's not hard. (talk page stalker) CrashUnderride 12:51, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- And you're making it sound like I'm trying to coddle people, which is patently absurd. All I'm saying is that I think you're wrong about prose and tables needing to be the same. I completely understand that in prose the winning team is listed first; if that's the same in tables, then I'll WP:DROPTHESTICK, but literally the first website I looked at just now (Fox Sports) lists the score of the relevant team first. They may do it differently on pages that aren't about a specific team, but you can't say it's done a particular way across the board when I've just proven that's not the case. – PeeJay 13:13, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oh, and CBS Sports does the same as Fox. – PeeJay 13:14, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- And just to show you I'm not cherry-picking my sources, ESPN and NBC list the winning score first. Just to point out, I'm not claiming that anything is settled when it clearly isn't, I'm just trying to show you that the relevant-team-first method is not as out-of-the-ordinary as you appear to think. – PeeJay 13:22, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- One more for good measure: Sports Illustrated doesn't go for either the relevant team or the winning team, they list the home team's score first! – PeeJay 13:27, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment on websites listing scores on a team's schedule IMO, we shouldn't put a lot of weight in the ordering of scores web sites use on teams' schedules. Those pages are just pulling the information from a database. Because of that, it's easier for the programmer to list "relevant score" first. If the programmer didn't have a requirement on how to display them or wasn't a sports fan, then it's more than likely to just have "relevant score" first. The manager in charge of the page realizes it probably should be "winning score" first, but chooses to spend their engineers' time elsewhere. — X96lee15 (talk) 13:32, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know if you're qualified to say what's easier when it comes to programming or even what goes through the mind of a website editor when making decisions like this. How do you know what method they're using to determine how to display scorelines? Obviously each one has a different method or they'd all be the same. – PeeJay 13:34, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- The Sports Illustrated one is truly bizarre and suggests that some of these sites may not be giving much serious though to their score formats. For this reason, I tend to agree with X96lee15 that we shouldn't put undue weight on how such web sites format their charts. Cbl62 (talk) 14:05, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- I take your point, but if we're not using other sources to decide how we should format our pages, we're essentially getting into a great, big WP:ILIKEIT vs WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument. I would say that the format on Sports Illustrated's website is only indicative of the amount of thought they've put in, and even then it may not even indicate that. As things stand, other sources are the best indicator we have. I'm not saying we should just go with what most websites do, I'm simply pointing out that some sites put the relevant team's score first on their specific schedule page, and that seems like the most statistically useful format and hence what we should do here. – PeeJay 14:18, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- The Sports Illustrated one is truly bizarre and suggests that some of these sites may not be giving much serious though to their score formats. For this reason, I tend to agree with X96lee15 that we shouldn't put undue weight on how such web sites format their charts. Cbl62 (talk) 14:05, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know if you're qualified to say what's easier when it comes to programming or even what goes through the mind of a website editor when making decisions like this. How do you know what method they're using to determine how to display scorelines? Obviously each one has a different method or they'd all be the same. – PeeJay 13:34, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment on websites listing scores on a team's schedule IMO, we shouldn't put a lot of weight in the ordering of scores web sites use on teams' schedules. Those pages are just pulling the information from a database. Because of that, it's easier for the programmer to list "relevant score" first. If the programmer didn't have a requirement on how to display them or wasn't a sports fan, then it's more than likely to just have "relevant score" first. The manager in charge of the page realizes it probably should be "winning score" first, but chooses to spend their engineers' time elsewhere. — X96lee15 (talk) 13:32, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PeeJay2K3: our conversation is over. Not because we disagree, but because you refuse to ping me as I have repeatedly requested. It's a clear lack of civility and respect. So, our discussion is at a close. (talk page stalker) CrashUnderride 13:44, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm under no obligation to ping you. If you want to leave the discussion, that's your prerogative. I've been nothing but civil to you, but your refusal to acknowledge my argument indicates a definite lack of reciprocity in this matter. – PeeJay 13:52, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PeeJay2K3: this is my last comment to you, you are under no obligation, but it's call common courtesy, which you show a complete lack of when replying to me and failing to ping me as well. And honestly, I couldn't give a sh*t about your argument because of that reason alone. So, after much deliberation, User:Cbl62, regarding Jay and his whining, I couldn't careless about those stupid tables. I'll happily discuss this topic with anyone else. As I said, I refuse to speak with Jay because of the lack of common courtesy he has shown with his repeatedly failure to ping me, upon multiple requests. (talk page stalker) CrashUnderride 14:13, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm under no obligation to ping you. If you want to leave the discussion, that's your prerogative. I've been nothing but civil to you, but your refusal to acknowledge my argument indicates a definite lack of reciprocity in this matter. – PeeJay 13:52, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PeeJay2K3: again, ping me bro! lol. Look, I'm getting sick and tired of this debate. Here's how it's done for literally every sport in America, winning-losing, why the hell would tables be any different? They wouldn't and shouldn't. The readers aren't stupid, you're acting like it takes the power of a nuclear bomb to look, literally from one side of a dash to another. I'm sorry, but you're entire argument sucks. You're acting like the readers are dumb little kids that need everything made easier for them because they're too stupid to be able to look — that far away. It's not hard. (talk page stalker) CrashUnderride 12:51, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- Apologies for misrepresenting you. However, you have again failed to grasp the argument. Sure, it's not rocket science to do some minor mental gymnastics and rearrange the scoreline in your head, but if we can present the scoreline in such a way that the team in question always has their own score on the left in tables and the opponent on the right, then readers can see at a glance how they did over the course of a few games or even the whole season. The colours are nice, but I'm not talking about simply being able to see which team won, but also the margin of victory and how the number of points scored by the team vs their opponents varied throughout the season. Also, you don't necessarily need to have the name of the team next to the scoreline, since we're talking about articles about a specific team, therefore it can be assumed that we're talking about the same subject throughout; the only team name that is needed in the table is the name of the opponent. Not sure why you're suggesting I think the {{Americanfootballbox}} template is so bad – I actually think it's a very useful way of displaying details about individual games; we're talking about the overall schedule tables, the ones that display all 17 weeks of the NFL season (sorry, I'm not particularly familiar with college football). – PeeJay 12:41, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- @PeeJay2K3: at least ping me next time. lol. Actually, no, it doesn't mean I disagree with having articles on specific teams on the whole. That logical fallacy is asinine if you ask me, not to mention you were putting words into my mouth. How many times do I have to say it, winning-losing. Away left / top, home bottom / right. If each tale has the same format and lists the teams name with the score, there, done no problem. People would see the teams' name with the score right there so it's not hard to find. You make it sound like they'd have to search all over the section / article for the score. How are these so horrible? They're exactly what I'm talking about, as for these, note how the games are colored, green for wins and red for losses, with the score in the proper winning-losing format. Yeah, it's really hard to know how the team did.</sarcsm> lol. (talk page stalker) CrashUnderride 11:26, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Crash Underride: Crash, my stated view is that MOS already required 'Winner-Loser' in NFL (and all) prose. I didn't perceive your observation re 'Loser-Winner' problems in NFL player page prose to be controversial and the ensuing NFL Project's discussion aligned with MOS. So in my view there wasn't new consensus re NFL prose, just editors in clear agreement with MOS who didn't overtly reference it. Apologies if that was unclear in context to my comments re the CFB schedule tables. UW Dawgs (talk) 15:39, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Cbl62: You cannot use this CFB Project discussion as rationale to implement systemic changes to the NFL Project against its consensus and documentation. The original edits against our CFB Project consensus were justified via a reference to a vague NFL Project Talk dicussion and remains the root cause of this CFB fiasco. Let's not repeat that mistake.
- Please also retract/strike your "offer" to modify every NFL article within 30 days based on this CFB Project discussion. In my view, you could help unwind this mess by implementing the NFL Project's 'Team-Opponent' current and long-standing consensus within any NFL team article schedules which are not currently Project-compliant over the next 30 days as you have conditionally offered. UW Dawgs (talk) 15:31, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- The NFL and CFB projects use identical "Schedule" tables. The NFL project has been notified of this discussion (and, of course, the original discussion began there), which is intended to resolve an inconsistency common to both. My offer was to do the "hard work" of implementing the change if the discussion closes in favor of "winner first". Nothing nefarious about my offer to do the "hard work". Please pay attention a little more closely before making baseless accusations, ok, my friend? Cbl62 (talk) 17:12, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Interim recap. The discussion has gotten really wordy and contentious and has sometimes veered off point, so to bring the disussion back into focus, we are debating the score format in team "Schedule" tables, and here's an interim recap of where the opinions stand:
- Six users favoring "subject team first" in Schedule tables: Kobra98, Bsuorangecrush, PeeJay, UW Dawgs, Corkythehornetfan, Jweiss11
- Five users favoring "winning team first" in Schedule tables: Cbl62, X96lee15, Bagumba, Dissident93, Crash Underride
- One user favoring flexible approach allowing individual editors to choose: Rob13
- Two users commenting without voting one way or other (at least as far as I could tell): Lizard, TheCatalyst31
Hopefully, we can get some input from additional users, keep the discussion civil, tip this debate one way or the other, and achieve a true consensus. Cbl62 (talk) 11:48, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support: Originally, I was opposed to team-opponent listing, but I think it is clearer this way. Other sites, including sportsreference.com use it this way. For clarity, I think this is the simplest way to go. In prose, never that way, but schedules yes. Lincolning (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- Support: I noted my reasoning below, but wanted to make sure my vote was here as well. I use Pro Football Reference and similar sites and it's much easier to understand this way. I wouldn't be opposed to separating the scores into two columns either. Theknightswhosay (talk) 22:11, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
- What did we decide here? Jweiss made a compelling argument for relevant team first in tables, so I'm inclined to agree with that. I still don't have an opinion on how it should be in prose. Lizard (talk) 23:32, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- After 12 days, the vote is 7 to 5 in favor of Kobra's proposal. Would have been nice to see greater input, and a greater margin than two votes, but our project is based on majority rule. So be it. Cbl62 (talk) 01:50, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- 8 to 5. The six you listed above plus Lincolning and Lizard. Kobra98 (talk) 02:01, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- Just to be clear (emphasis mine), "Remember that Wikipedia is not a democracy; even when polls appear to be "votes", most decisions on Wikipedia are made on the basis of consensus, not on vote-counting or majority rule." (WP:VOTE). I don't believe a consensus has been reached in this case. — X96lee15 (talk) 02:06, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I like how you left out "most" in your bold. That "most" is there for a reason because some discussions need to go by the majority. What more do you want out of this discussion? People disagree, there's nothing wrong with that. It's time to move on. Kobra98 (talk) 02:27, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- We certainly don't have a consensus to change anything, so I think we have to revert back to the existing standard, which is relevant team first in the schedule tables. I do lean toward relevant team first per the utility I pointed out above. But, I'd be more in favor of establishing some sort of Wikipedia-wide consistency on the matter, whichever way that goes. As for prose, I think we do have a strong consensus backed by style guidelines that winning score should always precede the losing score, no matter the subject or context of the article. On that matter, cumulative season scores discussed in prose should probably also follow the same rule. Thoughts? See 1931 Santa Barbara State Roadrunners football team for an example of this. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I like how you left out "most" in your bold. That "most" is there for a reason because some discussions need to go by the majority. What more do you want out of this discussion? People disagree, there's nothing wrong with that. It's time to move on. Kobra98 (talk) 02:27, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- After 12 days, the vote is 7 to 5 in favor of Kobra's proposal. Would have been nice to see greater input, and a greater margin than two votes, but our project is based on majority rule. So be it. Cbl62 (talk) 01:50, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- If this were an AFD, it would be closed as "no consensus". I don't believe in this case that such a small majority of votes (with so few votes cast) qualify as a consensus. Personally, I think since there isn't a consensus, both styles should be allowed. I guess precedence goes to whatever style was first used in an article. Per MOS:VAR, "Edit-warring over styles is never acceptable. If the existing style of an article is problematic, discuss it at the article’s talkpage or if necessary at the MOS talkpage.. I don't believe either style is problematic in this case. — X96lee15 (talk) 21:19, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Actually, I just noticed that the template documentation puts "higher score first" and has since this template and its documentation was created (Template:CFB Schedule Entry/doc#Example 2). I don't see any other documentation specifying otherwise. We probably should have been doing that all along. — X96lee15 (talk) 21:40, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I just noticed this discussion and believe the subject team's score should go first. If I'm looking down the column of scores and see 23-7 (in a loss) and then 17-14 (in a win), for instance, my first thought is that the subject team scored 23 in the first game and 17 in the second game. It's awkward to have to mentally reverse the order. For clarity, I would agree that in prose, one should write "23-7 win" or "23-7 loss". A chart is a different conversation in my mind though. Theknightswhosay (talk) 21:39, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
College Football Data Warehouse - more problems
After multiple past instances with College Football Data Warehouse (CFDW) being infected with malware, I tried accessing the site today, only to be redirected to a page indicating that the site has been "suspended". With these recurrent problems, we really ought to use other sources. SR/College Football and/or individual school media guides often have the same information and should IMO be used instead of CFDW. Cbl62 (talk) 07:30, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- Cbl62, I noticed this as well. I'm usually in contact with David DeLassus, who runs the site, fairly regularly as I find errors and send them to him for correction. But I haven't head from him in some time. The CFDW field has already been removed from Template:Infobox college coach. If we can't get some assurance about the site's stability in he near future we can broach what to do about Template:CFBCR. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:47, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Section headings in team season articles
The vast majority of season articles that have been expanded with game-by-game details have the relevant section titled either "Game summaries" or "Game notes". In an effort to bring some uniformity to these articles, a few weeks ago I discussed with BU Rob13 the idea of having a bot run through all of the team season articles and replace all instances of "Game notes" with "Game summaries". I think "Game summaries" is preferable because the word "notes" suggests something about a footnote or addendum, and these sections contain main body content of their articles. Would anyone have an objection to changing all instances of "Game notes" to "Game summaries"? Jweiss11 (talk) 17:53, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'm with ya. Summaries just sounds better, more encyclopedic. (talk page stalker) CrashUnderride 18:02, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes do that. Lizard (talk) 23:27, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: looks like we have support and no objections. Can you move forward with this when you have a chance? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 23:31, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Jweiss11: Can you provide me with the category that all team season articles are in? ~ Rob13Talk 23:59, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Rob, it's all the sub-categories of Category:College football seasons by team. We want to look for all section headers titled "Game notes", "Game Notes", and "Game Summaries" and replace them with "Game summaries. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:02, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Jweiss11: Can you provide me with the category that all team season articles are in? ~ Rob13Talk 23:59, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: looks like we have support and no objections. Can you move forward with this when you have a chance? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 23:31, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
- Working on it now. ~ Rob13Talk 22:40, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- Yes do that. Lizard (talk) 23:27, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Whitman College mascot change
Hello all - Just a note that Whitman College in Walla Walla, Washington changed from the "Fighting Missionaries" to the "Blues" late last year (see ref). I came across this as I created a category for basketball coaches. The school has been using the new name this academic year. Just alerting you so you can change any relevant football,articles. Also, I nominated all the sports categories for renaming, if someone could go here and check my work – I am not confident that I did it correctly (mass nominations are complicated). Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 16:18, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Rikster2: thanks for the heads up. The Whitman football program folded following the 1976 season, so this name change does not apply to the football program. I opposed the name changes for the football categories, but supported the others. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Possible addition to individual games
I've created a table for individual games, and added it to the 1957 Ohio State/TCU game. Is this considered improvement-enough to keep it, or is it something superfluous that isn't really needed? I feel that seeing the passing/rushing/turn over stats helps to see why the outcome of the game ended as it did. The current tables are for scoring by quarter, and for the scores themselves, but they lack a bit by neglecting the turnovers and the actual plays (passing/rushing) made. I had intended to also include time of possession, but it's tough to find for older games, so I didn't include it for the example game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_Ohio_State_Buckeyes_football_team#TCU)
Thoughts? Keep it? Dump it?
JBrenn (talk) 22:30, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Divisional tie-breakers and conference championship games
There are a lot of edits and reversions concerning divisional championships of teams that do not make the championship game. For instance, Alabama technically won the SEC West in 2013 along with Auburn when Auburn dramatically beat Alabama by returning a field goal attempt as time expired to win the division (to tie in record and break the tie). Another example was 10 years before that when Ole Miss technically won the SEC West, although LSU won the BCS that year and beat Ole Miss on the way there (Ole Miss has never played in an SEC Championship Game). Anyway, I think it should at least be mentioned for clarity when a team is credited with a divisional win that such a team did not actually play in the championship game. Theknightswhosay (talk) 21:21, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
- This doesn't make sense - if two teams have identical records, and one beats the other, then the winning team of the two has the tie-broken, better, record - and is therefore the divisional champ. Auburn won the west in '13 by virtue of having won the tie-breaker with Alabama. Ole Miss didn't "technically" win the west - they explicitly lost the tie-breaker game with LSU, and therefore lost any claim to a co-championship of the west with LSU.
- Why this is an issue is beyond me - there's one champ of divisions and conferences, determined by tie-breaking games. The team with an identical record should *not* be referred to as a "co-champion".
- JBrenn (talk) 21:02, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- This seems to be a common misconception. The tiebreaker is to decide which team will represent the division in the conference championship game, not to decide who wins the division.
- "there's one champ of divisions and conferences, determined by tie-breaking games" As far as the FBS, excluding the Big 12 in 2016, I'm not sure any conference or division has ever worked like this. If two or more teams have the same divisional or conference record, they're tied.
- SEC: http://www.secsports.com/article/11145479/sec-divisional-tie-breaker
- Big Ten: http://www.bigten.org/sports/m-footbl/archive/081011aaa.html
- Pac-12: http://pac-12.com/article/2014/11/06/pac-12-football-championship-game-tiebreaker-explanation
- None of these say that the tiebreakers are to decide the champ; rather, they all explicitly state that it's to decide the representative. Kobra98 (talk) 21:19, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- This is correct, as silly as it is. Lizard (talk) 22:03, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- This is probably a conference by conference thing technically, but at least all of the FBS conferences appear to recognize tied division champs. I can't tell you how many times I have to edit Nick Saban's page to restore Alabama's 2013 co-championship (as silly as it might be). Jweiss11 (talk) 22:44, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- This is correct, as silly as it is. Lizard (talk) 22:03, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
Since I posted about this in a year ago (and had posted it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball as well with the discussion held there by another user's choice), a certain user (Jweiss11) has decided that there is no consensus (which is clearly wrong.) I had posted the discussion at the College Basketball WikiProject an hour after the College football post. That user decided to hold the discussion there. The post read:
Something needs to be done with navigation boxes like in the William McAvoy article. There is simply way too many to not be grouped together. Personally, I'd like to see them grouped like in this diff. No color is needed since the coaches are at various schools. I don't care if you want to leave the default name
Links to related articles
as the title or something likeName coaching positions
, etc. This article is another example.
During the discussionUsers had three options:
- Group the navboxes all together;
- Group the navboxes separately;
- do not group the navboxes at all; or
- a different option.
Out of the participants (Me, @Jweiss11, Sphilbrick, Bagumba, Rikster2, UCO2009bluejay, Lizard the Wizard, MisterCake, Jrcla2, and Littlekelv:), the consensus was clear (for those who !voted) – group them all together (5–1). Jrcla2 expressed he didn't "feel strongly about this but we may as well just lump everything together so keep pages cleaner." Jweiss expressed, and the user who keeps going against consensus, he's in favor of "Leaving all positional navboxes ungrouped and putting all championships, awards, and honors navboxes in one collapsed grouping." Something Rikster2 said – and I happen to agree with – is "I just fail to see why coach tenure navboxes are necessarily more important than others and am tired of the overloaded navboxes of the Larry Brown's and Mysterious Walker's of the world. At the end of the day, coach tenures should be in the infobox anyway so it isn't like the information is being hidden - it is still available on quick scan." After the consensus, edits were made to reflect it, but Jweiss keeps reverting. I'm tired of it and would like others to jump in to voice their opinions. Thanks, Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 01:30, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
In addition, this discussion effects all sports WikiProjects in North America. The consensus gathered at the end of the RFC will effect articles in those notified (mentioned below). Thanks, Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 07:55, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Discussion
This is the discussion. Once you have an opinion, please record it in the Survey section below. If you've recorded it in this section, please add another into the survey section. Thanks.
- Group them but under two separate sub-groupings: "Coaching navboxes" and "Awards and honors" Jrcla2 (talk) 02:58, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Group them - But I agree with Jrcla above - one group for coaching/administrative positions (because there are AD boxes too) and "awards and honors" Rikster2 (talk) 04:55, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- We need to have this discussion in a way that it covers at least all American college sports, MLB, NBA, NFL, CFL. Otherwise it cannot be consistent. We also need to determine exact language of the coaching/administrative position grouping and a rule for when it is invoked, i.e minimum number of navboxes needed to invoke it. Also, what about QB navboxes, e.g. Jim Harbaugh? Do we have one grouping for all positions held? Finally, I'm happy to explain why I think coaching/administrative position navboxes are more important that championship or award / honors navboxes. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:13, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- WikiProjects NBA, Baseball, NFL, CFL, Sports, and College basketball have been notified. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 06:07, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Okay, the consensus we need to build is one that explicitly governs all those projects / subject areas. It should be clarified that the discussion / RFC applies to all North American sports tenure navboxes. Jweiss11 (talk) 06:39, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- It's great if other multiple projects choose to be consistent. However, it is not necessary. Otherwise, we wouldn't be excluding NHL here. Barring a joint consensus, there was already a clear one for college basketball at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_College_Basketball/Archive_6#Navigation_boxes_in_coaches_articles.—Bagumba (talk) 09:11, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- If consistency were that important, football wouldn't have something like four different infoboxes going. As for starting quarterback templates, my first suggestion would be that you guy evaluate if they are necessary - I personally think they are overkill but it's not my call. If kept, I think they should be grouped with awards and a more encompassing name for the group should be created (opening day starter templates for baseball are similar). Last, I think there already is a rule (perhaps it is informal, but we could make it more firm) that four navboxes or more should be nested. I think this is still a good number, though 4 navboxes could become two instead of one if we use separate groupings. Rikster2 (talk) 12:01, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- It's great if other multiple projects choose to be consistent. However, it is not necessary. Otherwise, we wouldn't be excluding NHL here. Barring a joint consensus, there was already a clear one for college basketball at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_College_Basketball/Archive_6#Navigation_boxes_in_coaches_articles.—Bagumba (talk) 09:11, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Okay, the consensus we need to build is one that explicitly governs all those projects / subject areas. It should be clarified that the discussion / RFC applies to all North American sports tenure navboxes. Jweiss11 (talk) 06:39, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- WikiProjects NBA, Baseball, NFL, CFL, Sports, and College basketball have been notified. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 06:07, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Group them all together (Same as my !vote from previous discussion) This is clean, and simplest to implement. I'm not sold on idea of needing overhead of two groupings (but it would be better than doing nothing at all).—Bagumba (talk) 09:11, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Rikster, consistency is that important. If you want to merge some of those football infoboxes, go for it. As long as the quarterback navboxes exist, they need to be integrated into this new navbox grouping solution. If you think they should be deleted, go for it. Bagumba, the reason I've excluded the NHL here is that coach navboxes doesn't exist for the NHL. They have succession boxes instead. There are a couple coach navboxes for college hockey; see Category:American college ice hockey coach navigational boxes. Moreover, WikiProject Ice Hockey has historically be antagonistic toward collaborating with related WikiProjects and merging their standards. There may have been a consensus for college basketball, but it was inherently flawed because no one addressed the problem of cases where college basketball coach navboxes exist along side other coach navboxes, which is a vast portion of all cases, given the number of college basketball coaches who coached in the NBA or coached other college sports. Jweiss11 (talk) 13:22, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- It's not my place to tell the football project(s) how to handle their business. I have, however, been someone who has pushed for (and done a lot of the conversion work) for infobox integration for basketball and fought "starting point guard" navboxes when they came up. There will be no push back about NBA and college coach navboxes being nested - separating them outside a nest isn't something our project feels strongly about. Rikster2 (talk) 13:28, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Pinging regular editors in these topics areas for comment: @Pvmoutside:, @X96lee15:, @TonyTheTiger:, @Paulmcdonald:, @UCO2009bluejay:, @JohnInDC:, @Ejgreen77:, @WikiOriginal-9:, @MisterCake:, @UW Dawgs:, @Bsuorangecrush:, @Yankees10:, @Eagles247:, @Dissident93:, @Cbl62:.
- Comment – We need a final consensus before we start discussing names, etc. Once we have a consensus, then we can worry about it. Until then, let's just wait. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 03:27, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Survey
Please record your !vote below. Thanks.
- Group them, but group them separately from "awards and honors." Lizard (talk) 01:38, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Group em together Bot summoned per Corkythehornetfan. And a separte heading for Survey and Listed Discussion should be implemented. L3X1 (distant write) 16:22, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- Group them, but group them separately from "awards and honors." Rikster2 (talk) 02:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: if consensus moves in favor of separate grouping for 1) tenure navboxes and 2) championships/awards/honors navboxes, we are going to have to figure out how exactly that it works, i.e. at what number of navboxes is the grouping invoked and how does the naming scheme work. For example, in the case of Tuss McLaughry, the five tenure navboxes would be grouped and then the one award navbox would be left ungrouped? Similarly, if consensus moves in favor of one grouping for all the navboxes, we need to figure out the naming for that and how things are ordered within the new grouping. We must figure out all those details before anyone runs off and implements something. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:38, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- I've always just done it based on judgement. If it looks like a lot of navboxes, I group them. Lizard (talk) 02:45, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Not going to fly. We need objective rules. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:53, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Then I say group them once they hit 4. Four coaching gigs would be grouped, three "awards and honors" would be ungrouped, etc. And I think we should also either decide what constitutes "awards and honors," or start naming that group something else. Because I wouldn't consider "Chicago Bears 1992 draft selection" to be an award nor an honor yet these navboxes get thrown in with that group. Lizard (talk) 03:10, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that we need a better name for this "awards and honors" grouping. Things like Template:NFL passing touchdown leaders aren't really an award or an honor either. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:43, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Then I say group them once they hit 4. Four coaching gigs would be grouped, three "awards and honors" would be ungrouped, etc. And I think we should also either decide what constitutes "awards and honors," or start naming that group something else. Because I wouldn't consider "Chicago Bears 1992 draft selection" to be an award nor an honor yet these navboxes get thrown in with that group. Lizard (talk) 03:10, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Not going to fly. We need objective rules. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:53, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- I've always just done it based on judgement. If it looks like a lot of navboxes, I group them. Lizard (talk) 02:45, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Group them all together Personally don't think it's worth having two {{Navboxes}} groupings—just sort them within the single navbox grouping—but anything is better than current practice of not collapsing at all.—Bagumba (talk) 09:37, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
- Group them, in the way Jrcla2 suggested. That appears to be the most WP:Common sense approach. While a profusion of infoboxes are clearly unhelpful, it's equally clear (to experienced editors/readers, anyway) that a humongous, monolithic infobox that is excessively dense and unorganized is also "reader-hateful". — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:54, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: Just making sure you're aware we're discussing navboxes, not infoboxes. Lizard (talk) 00:25, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
- I did get confused (trying to do too many RfC in multiple windows after a bit of a wikibreak), but the exact same principle applies. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:46, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: You might have been confused by {{Navboxes}}, which merely creates a collapsible container for multiple navboxes; it does not merge them into a monolithic one, per se.—Bagumba (talk) 14:41, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Results, further discussion
Bagumba, Lizard the Wizard, Jweiss11, Jrcla2, Rikster2, L3X1, and others: I've waited 7 days since the RFC, so now it's time to move on. It looks like the result is to group them separately. Now let's talk about how we are going to label them. In my personal opinion, the following are my suggestions for naming conventions, but I am open to anything.
- Separately – Career tenures (group 1), Career highlights (group 2)
- Separately – Administrative, coaching, and playing careers (group 1), Administrative, coaching, and player highlights (group 2)
For the second (2) option, we would only include the group the awards/honors/highlights were in (i.e. if they have player & coaching awards, we'd leave out Administrative). Thoughts? If after one (1) week no one has commented, then I will go ahead and will go ahead and start grouping with the two options above. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 18:59, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- I still maintain to group them inside a single {{Navboxes}}. Less overhead, can still be sorted as we see fit, and avoids coming up with some new cryptic header for each grouping.—Bagumba (talk) 13:49, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Bagumba: either way, we are going to need a label to be consistent throughout the articles. If we group them all together, do we just leave the automatic label "Links to related articles", for do we use a different label. This is what this section is about. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 22:42, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
- Separately – Career tenures (group 1), Career highlights (group 2) Looks ok. L3X1 (distant write) 00:20, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Agree with Bagumba. Cbl62 (talk) 00:36, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Separately – Career tenures (group 1), Career highlights (group 2) is fine (though I don't oppose grouping together if that is majority view). Things like draft pick templates and starting QB templates can qualify as "highlights." Rikster2 (talk) 00:38, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
- Agree with Bagumba; had a change of heart. Otherwise the two section names suggested are fine with me. Lizard (talk) 17:45, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
- Comment Thank you all for the responses. It would be really nice if Jweiss11, who is the main critic here, would give his opinion. I just don't want reverts to start when the outcome is applied. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 21:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Corky, you know my opinion is that we keep the status quo with the tenure navboxes ungrouped, but it surely looks like consensus is for a grouping of some sort. As for which way we group them, I'm not sure I have a preference. I just want to be sure that whatever it is, all the permutations are considered and all the details are hammered before anyone goes and deploys anything. Consistency is the key here. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Several Texas Longhorns football individual games nominated for deletion
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2005 Texas vs. Ohio State football game (2nd nomination)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2005 Oklahoma vs. Texas football game
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2007 Texas vs. Oklahoma State football game
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2008 Texas vs. Oklahoma football game
I have nominated three IFAF World Championship roster navboxes for deletion. Please see the discussion here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 18:44, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
College Football Data Warehouse - out of business
I tried again this morning to access the College Football Data Warehouse web site. There is now a notice from Network Solutions stating that "cfbdatawarehouse.com expired on 03/24/2017 and is pending renewal or deletion." Accordingly, this projects numerous links to the site would now appear to be dead links. Ugh. Cbl62 (talk) 14:44, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- We're long overdue for an alternative. Lizard (talk) 16:09, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- Suggestions for alternatives: SR/College Football covers most of the things for which we have traditionally used CFDW. For the last couple of years, I've been using SR/College Football whenever possible. In most of the instances that are not covered by SR/College Football, I recommend using media guides, which are available on-line for most FBS programs. A third resource is the "ESPN College Football Encyclopedia"; I purchased a hard copy myself a couple years ago, and they are available for just $3.99 (shipping included) on-line. See here. Another good research for Big Ten programs is ESPN's Big Ten Football Encyclopedia which can be purchased even cheaper. See here. While it's not one I have, ESPN's Southeastern Conference Football Encyclopedia can be purchased for the low, low sum of only $3.35 (shipping included). See here. Cbl62 (talk) 20:12, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- My only gripe with ESPN's College Football Encyclopedia is its claim that the North Texas Mean Green was named in honor of Mean Joe Greene, which is almost certainly false. Perhaps that's the only error in the book, I don't know. But it's enough to make me question the reliability of the rest of the book. Lizard (talk) 20:30, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- Suggestions for alternatives: SR/College Football covers most of the things for which we have traditionally used CFDW. For the last couple of years, I've been using SR/College Football whenever possible. In most of the instances that are not covered by SR/College Football, I recommend using media guides, which are available on-line for most FBS programs. A third resource is the "ESPN College Football Encyclopedia"; I purchased a hard copy myself a couple years ago, and they are available for just $3.99 (shipping included) on-line. See here. Another good research for Big Ten programs is ESPN's Big Ten Football Encyclopedia which can be purchased even cheaper. See here. While it's not one I have, ESPN's Southeastern Conference Football Encyclopedia can be purchased for the low, low sum of only $3.35 (shipping included). See here. Cbl62 (talk) 20:12, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- Don't forget to use webarchive. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 19:27, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- One of the problems is the usage of automated links to CFDW in Template:CFBCR. Unless the template can be programmed to automatically link to an old version of the site using webarchive, the template itself should probably be 86'd and removed from the hundreds of articles that currently use it. Cbl62 (talk) 20:32, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- Here is a website that is very comprehensive dating back to 1945, and also indicates who is a conference opponent.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 21:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
It seems the College Football Data Warehouse is indeed out of business for good. Therefore Template:CFBCR should be deleted. There's also an associated Wikidata element. I don't know much about Wikidata, but perhaps that should be deleted as well? Jweiss11 (talk) 22:20, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
In an attempt to reduce our ever-expanding navbox cruft, I've placed 14 minor college football awards navboxes at TfD. See Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2017 April 15. Lizard (talk) 18:16, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Update to Template:CFB Yearly Record
I don't have any idea how to do this, but can we update the yearly record template found on head coaches' pages? My problem with it is the BCS bowl part. Even though the BCS has been done for four years, the Bowl Alliance for 20, and the Bowl Coalition for 23, it's still shown on these templates.
Example: Tom Herman (American football)#Head coaching record
Tom Herman of Texas has only been a head coach since 2015, yet the symbol next to the Peach Bowl on his yearly record table says that it "indicates Bowl Coalition, Bowl Alliance, BCS, or CFP / New Years' Six bowl". Herman is never going to coach a team in a Bowl Coalition, Bowl Alliance, or BCS bowl.
It's the same for old coaches too. Tom Osborne never had the opportunity to coach in a BCS or CFP/New Years' Six bowl. John Blake never had the opportunity to coach in a Bowl Coalition or CFP/New Years' Six bowl. Is there anyway we can adjust this template so that only the systems that were in place when a particular coach was coaching are shown? Kobra98 (talk) 04:56, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Kobra98: Maybe. You'd probably be better served asking the smart people who normally deal with template editing. Lizard (talk) 03:58, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- And who are those people? Kobra98 (talk) 23:19, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- User:Frietjes is probably your best bet. Lizard (talk) 00:22, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Kobra98, this is certainly doable, but how exactly would you want this to work? Four separate indicators for 1) Bowl Coalition, 2) Bowl Alliance, 3) BCS, and 4) CFP / New Years' Six bowl? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:46, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Jweiss11, Lizard the Wizard, Kobra98, the problem is that currently
|bcs=no
means hide all bowl footnotes. this is a bad name for the parameter. instead it should be|bowls=no
. I added some tracking. If we change this parameter from|bcs=no
to|bowls=no
, then going forward we have two options, (1) as Jweiss11 suggests with four different parameters, or (2) have it automatic based on some date range, like|year_start=
and|year_end=
. of course, this would be in addition to the ability to entirely turn it off with just|bowls=no
. Frietjes (talk) 13:56, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- Jweiss11, Lizard the Wizard, Kobra98, the problem is that currently
- Kobra98, this is certainly doable, but how exactly would you want this to work? Four separate indicators for 1) Bowl Coalition, 2) Bowl Alliance, 3) BCS, and 4) CFP / New Years' Six bowl? Jweiss11 (talk) 04:46, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- User:Frietjes is probably your best bet. Lizard (talk) 00:22, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
- And who are those people? Kobra98 (talk) 23:19, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
L'il help?
Was updating Template:Northwestern Eagles football coach navbox and the new coach is "Matt Moore." I have no idea how you guys DAB when their are multiples with the same name. Here is a link about his hiring. Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 03:39, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Matt Moore (American football coach) I'd imagine. Lizard (talk) 03:43, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Rikster2: See Bill Walsh (American football coach) (although this should arguably be the primary topic). Lizard (talk) 03:48, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- thanks Rikster2 (talk) 03:53, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Lizard, I'd support that move of Bill Walsh (American football coach) to a primary topic. Perhaps you want to initiate that? Jweiss11 (talk) 17:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- The only reason I haven't tried yet is because my two previous attempts to rename an American football subject to the primary topic—Jim Taylor (American football) and Bruce Matthews (American football)—didn't go as planned. I'm not convinced Bill Walsh has a better chance than those two. Lizard (talk) 17:14, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Looks like most if not all of the "oppose" voters are British. There is a segment of British Wikipedians who have a lot of trouble understanding that topics that aren't at all prevalent in the U.K. are huge in the US. Next time one gives you guff you should suggest that Bobby Moore should be a DAB page because there are too many people of that name, as was argued in the Jim Taylor case. I'd give it a shot and argue it out. Rikster2 (talk) 18:00, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- The only reason I haven't tried yet is because my two previous attempts to rename an American football subject to the primary topic—Jim Taylor (American football) and Bruce Matthews (American football)—didn't go as planned. I'm not convinced Bill Walsh has a better chance than those two. Lizard (talk) 17:14, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- Lizard, I'd support that move of Bill Walsh (American football coach) to a primary topic. Perhaps you want to initiate that? Jweiss11 (talk) 17:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
- thanks Rikster2 (talk) 03:53, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Northern Illinois Huskies in which members of this WikiProject maybe interested in. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. Corkythehornetfan (ping me) 20:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Women in Red online editathon on sports
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Maps on college football season articles
User:Jhn31 has added maps to a number of college football season articles, like 1950 college football season, to depict the locations of participating teams. Jhn31, User:Lizard the Wizard, and I have discussed this a bit on Jhn31's talk page here. What are everyone's thoughts about these maps? Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 02:47, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- For a little background, I was inspired by similar maps on international soccer, basketball, hockey pages (for example 2016–17 Premier League, 2016–17 Russian Premier League, 2017 Campeonato Brasileiro Série A, etc.). Those leagues don't have the same alignments from year to year, unlike American pro sports, so the map is a quick visual way to show who participated that year. I found that similar to college football. The map quickly shows who was in what conference each year, thanks to the color coding, which conveys the information a lot more efficiently than the standings tables. The only drawback is the map has to be pretty big to spread out enough to fit all the teams, but I don't think it's too wide - at least the maps have a section to themselves, unlike in this example here. Jhn31 (talk) 03:05, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- I may be in the minority but I support these maps. I believe that maps indicating where these teams are illustrates the geographic scope of college football. However, I think placement of these maps should be worked out. Where it is now isn't that objectionable but I'm not fully sure either. In reference to the discussion on his page, I wonder if there is a list of who participated in the University Division of college football in a given year, not necessarily based upon a site with questionable arbitrarily declares a major school (the fact that you had that discussion indicates it is iffy).UCO2009bluejay (talk) 20:11, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- Support, but where's Hawaii? Kobra98 (talk) 21:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- There are arrows pointing to Hawaii, keep in mind the program was D-II until 1974.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:18, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- I do not support these maps. These season articles are generally in bad shape and these maps aren't helping. Keep in mind that prior to 1956, the NCAA had no divisions. All teams, even little guys like Tufts, essentially played together with the big boys. An article like 1950 college football season, as named and defined, covers all these teams and conferences. There are some websites that make some sort of determination about who was a "major" team when, but I'm not sure that any of those are reliable/encyclopedic or historically accurate. The team count in the infobox of a lot of these articles is sourced to http://www.jhowell.net. Who is James Howell? It appears he's some guy who likes college football. Anyway, this all creates a real problem for the maps because we'd have several hundred data points on them. Even in recent years, when we have a clear, defined set of teams in question, I don't find these maps particularly useful. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:04, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
- There are arrows pointing to Hawaii, keep in mind the program was D-II until 1974.UCO2009bluejay (talk) 23:18, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
- Support/Defer - The basics of teams and leagues remain in ongoing flux with conflicting sourcing. Thematically, there is no fundamental issue with inclusion of maps for any year, but would prefer to see us further along to avoid disputes and map removal upon status change involving new discovery around particular teams. UW Dawgs (talk) 01:29, 1 May 2017 (UTC)