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:: Okay thanks that's all I wanted to know, that you won't take me back to [[WP:ANI]] for doing it. I'm in no hurry and want to make it absolutely clear that it is not in any way an excessive amount of editing on my part. So I will do it tomorrow or the day after. We are not in consensus about whether it is a consensus view, after all others have also expressed reservations about the article including {{yo|Dorje108}} of course whose revert you reverted when he asked you to stop and discuss before rewriting the article to your liking. I don't think you could reasonably argue that there was consensus support for your rewrite. You do have several editors who agree with you on this matter. But a group of editors who are like minded on a topic does not make for a consensus. It is more like a faction. And everything I write is heavily cited. And we never had consensus on your idea that [[Walpola Rahula]]'s "What the Buddha Taught" and other works by Therevadhan bikkhu scholars cannot be used as [[WP:RS]] indeed I find it totally absurd that a book written for the general public by the foremost Pali Canon scholar of his time can't be used as a secondary source and I think many others would agree with me there. What does whether or not he has taken the Buddhist monk's vows have to do with whether he is reliable or a secondary source? So I don't see how it is just a "personal viewpoint". Anyway the main thing is, to add the tag, uncollapse the last comment, and then {{yo|Farang Rak Tham}} and anyone else watching the page and its talk page will see whatever happens after that. [[User:Robertinventor|Robert Walker]] ([[User talk:Robertinventor|talk]]) 14:32, 12 April 2017 (UTC) |
:: Okay thanks that's all I wanted to know, that you won't take me back to [[WP:ANI]] for doing it. I'm in no hurry and want to make it absolutely clear that it is not in any way an excessive amount of editing on my part. So I will do it tomorrow or the day after. We are not in consensus about whether it is a consensus view, after all others have also expressed reservations about the article including {{yo|Dorje108}} of course whose revert you reverted when he asked you to stop and discuss before rewriting the article to your liking. I don't think you could reasonably argue that there was consensus support for your rewrite. You do have several editors who agree with you on this matter. But a group of editors who are like minded on a topic does not make for a consensus. It is more like a faction. And everything I write is heavily cited. And we never had consensus on your idea that [[Walpola Rahula]]'s "What the Buddha Taught" and other works by Therevadhan bikkhu scholars cannot be used as [[WP:RS]] indeed I find it totally absurd that a book written for the general public by the foremost Pali Canon scholar of his time can't be used as a secondary source and I think many others would agree with me there. What does whether or not he has taken the Buddhist monk's vows have to do with whether he is reliable or a secondary source? So I don't see how it is just a "personal viewpoint". Anyway the main thing is, to add the tag, uncollapse the last comment, and then {{yo|Farang Rak Tham}} and anyone else watching the page and its talk page will see whatever happens after that. [[User:Robertinventor|Robert Walker]] ([[User talk:Robertinventor|talk]]) 14:32, 12 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:::I will revert the POV tag, because you are repeating what we went over in the past, a "wall of post" one can read in Archive 2 and 3. If someone were to explain or present a new concern, based on RS, the tag is fine (editing and fixing the problem even better). Denying or suppressing mainstream secondary and tertiary publications, published by dozens of scholars, on 4NT, rebirth, etc is inappropriate and unacceptable. Walpola Rahula is already cited in the article, along with others. Please see the template above again, on when to call an article non-neutral. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 18:09, 12 April 2017 (UTC) |
Revision as of 18:09, 12 April 2017
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Missing topics list
My list of missing topics about Buddhism is updated - Skysmith (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Kleshas
These articles and their redirects need to be untangled: Kleshas (Hinduism), Kleshas, and Kleshas (Buddhism). Particular attention needs to be paid to Kleshas, which used to be a disambiguation page. Right now it says The Five Poisons are five perceived threats to the stability of the rule of the Communist Party of China.
, with nothing about the etymology and no mention of the other articles. It seems fine to me if it's an overview or summary article instead of a dab page, but it's incomplete as it is.
The redirects to these articles seem pretty random; sorting them out might be easy for someone knowledgeable in these areas. — Gorthian (talk) 19:23, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
Requesting assessment
Dear fellow contributors,
I am requesting assessment of expanded articles on Wikipedia:WikiProject_Buddhism/Assessment#Requesting_an_assessment. Thank you.--Farang Rak Tham (talk) 20:19, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Have you ever seen this before?
Have you ever seen anything like this on wikipedia, a talk page with just about all the comments collapsed and the collapsing done by editors with the opposing view on the article content to the person whose comments were collapsed? The dispute is over whether the four noble truths should be presented as they are in the Pāli Canon and as understood by many modern Buddhists as saying that it's possible to realize cessation of dukkha in ones lifetime, and that Buddha himself did that, or if Buddhas only truly realize cessation in the sense of the four truths at death in paranirvana.
Richard Gombrich is of the view that Buddha as a young man only had an intimation that when he died he would be free from the cycle of samsara. He is a notable scholar and of course his view needs to be included. He also, as a necessary corollary, thinks that the four noble truths in the Pāli Canon are inauthentic, not the original statement of them as given by the Buddha. The article presents only the views of Richard Gombrich and some (not all) other Western scholars, rephrases the four truths in accord with their views, and presents only their views on the authenticity or otherwise of the Pāli Canon, on which, of course, there is a very wide range of views, see Pāli Canon#Origins. I argue that it should present the full range of views on both matters.
Walpola Rahula was one of many notable scholars who say that according to the Buddha's teachings, cessation in the sense of the four noble truths was realized by the Budddha and by arhats in their own lifetimes and not after death. Indeed this is the view of all except a small number of mainly Western scholars. For a more detailed summary of the dispute see the last collapsed comment on the page and for more details with cites, see the previous collapsed sections.
Full disclosure. I was taken to WP:ANI by @Joshua Jonathan:, the main opposing editor in this dispute, and topic banned for three six months last year on the topic "four noble truths" broadly construed. The reason given for banning me was that I wrote too much on this matter on the article talk page in too short a period of time. It was not an edit war. I have never edit warred on the talk page and the only edit I did of the article itself was to add a cn tag which was swiftly removed. I never tried to reinsert it. Whatever the rights or wrongs of that, my editing since then can hardly be called excessive. This was my first post to the talk page for four months. I am not a WP:SPA either, I edit wikipedia on a large number of topics.
I recommend that the last edit by @Ms Sarah Welch: be reverted - it collapsed my last comment and most of the remaining uncollapsed content on the page. I also recommend that a WP:NPOVD tag should be added to the article. During all this debate the opposing editors never edited it to say that the neutrality of the article was disputed and I obviously didn't try knowing that they had reverted even a simple cn tag. See Talk:Four Noble Truths - Robert Walker (talk) 06:51, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
- Please see [1] [2], [3] for the context. JimRenge (talk) 07:24, 9 April 2017 (UTC) suppl. links JimRenge (talk) 10:53, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- Robert, it's good that you mention your topic-ban. Consider the counter-question: have you ever seen a talkpage which is so completely filled by one editor? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:03, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
- First for anyone reading this, I am not under a topic ban at present. It expired over four months ago, and I did no editing at all of the talk page while I was banned, which was the most limited ban you can have, a restriction that I couldn't mention a single phrase "four noble truths" for six months, broadly construed, and it was imposed not for edit warring or anything else, just for verbosity on the talk page.
- Then, I forgot to mention, three days ago, @Joshua Jonathan: deleted my most recent comment from the talk page without prior discussion with me or anyone else[4]. Another editor reverted his edit saying "Please explain why talk page needs deletion"[5] and then he gave no explanation but @Ms Sarah Welch: collapsed the comment instead along with most of the other remaining uncollapsed comments on the page[6]. Does this not count as WP:TPO? The WP:ANI was a judgement on my verboseness. How does a single comment four months after the ban expired cross the line of excessive verbosity which I was topic banned for?[7].
- I don't see anything in the WP:ANI decision that gives them or anyone else the authority to remove or collapse my posts from Talk:Four Noble Truths without discussion four months after the ban expired. Also this way that they immediately deleted or collapsed my recent critical comment on its talk page I think underlines how strongly they feel about retaining the article in its present form, which doesn't even mention that there are other WP:POVs in the scholarly literature. Surely that can be their only reason for collapsing it?? If someone read my comment they would see that there are other WP:POVs on the topic. I have been verbose in the past but this was one new comment after four months.
- Once again I recommend that the edit collapsing my post to the talk page be reverted, and the article marked as POV - that its neutrality is disputed, linking to the talk page. I don't edit war, and especially I will not do so in the Buddhism topic area, so I won't revert it myself. Robert Walker (talk) 09:48, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- Perhaps I am missing something here, Robertinventor, but why don't you just edit the article using reliable sources? Since you are not under a topic ban anymore, that would be possible.--Farang Rak Tham (talk) 11:27, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Please don't ignore the archived walls of comments and discussions here. Feel free to repeat, but do respect the fact that others may not because there is no need to repeat. @Farang Rak Tham: I request that you read that archive and edit history carefully, in case you haven't. Your account history suggests you registered your account about the time of those discussions last year, so you may or may not be fully aware of the history and depth here. The wikipedia community active in Buddhism space, as well as many admins, have already shown a lot of loving-kindness, compassion and patience in this matter.... if you go through the history carefully. Yes, anyone is free to edit and Robertinventor is too. But if the sources or issues have been discussed on the talk page/archive by the same editor with others previously, the editor(s) need to be more careful. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:26, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- Ms Sarah Welch, I had read that. I was saying that it would be better to start editing the article following the rules of the game, than to talk for hours on talk pages.
- So what do you propose?--Farang Rak Tham (talk) 19:05, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Farang Rak Tham:. Right I'll explain why it's necessary to get a talk page consensus first and why nobody has tried to edit the article itself in this way. It's because 1. my edits would be reverted. I tried just adding a cn tag as the only edit I ever did and it was swiftly reverted. I would want to add a POV tag but it would be instantly reverted, I know for sure. 2. Most of those knowledgeable in Buddhist scholarship are no longer with the project, but have gone away now.
- I feel I am trained as a scholar, yes, but in mathematics, not Buddhism. It's - out of respect for the dharma. Mainly because I'm a practicing meditating Buddhist in a sutra based tradition. I feel I would need the blessing of my teachers to actually write in the area of Buddhist scholarship. Hard to explain. It's just not the direction I have gone in as a Buddhist. So, I'm sure that the article needs to be fixed, it can't be right to say that cessation in the sense of Nirvana only happens after you die, or to say that the teachings just are inauthentic - as the only WP:POV presented in the article. That makes it outrageously biased, ignoring the way the four truths are understood by Buddhists in all the main sutra traditions, including Therevadhan Buddhism, as presented for instance by Walpola Rahula widely recognized in East and West as one of the foremost scholars of the Pali Canon and Therevadhan Buddhism. He could hardly have put it plainer [8]:
"In almost all religions the summum bonum can be attained only after death. But Nirvana can be realized in this very life; it is not necessary to wait till you die to ‘attain’ it."
- It is sometimes easier to see what is wrong with an article than to fix it. It's one thing as a lay Buddhist who has read some Buddhist scholarship to see the bias in an article. It is another thing altogether to write an article that presents the Buddha's teachings on the four noble truths accurately in a scholarly fashion as understood by mainstream modern Buddhists.
- But as well as that, there is no need. It's already been done. This is the previous version of the article[9]. The most recent edits up to that point were, many of them, by @Dorje108: as one of several editors, who has a good understanding of modern Buddhist teachings and of the scholarly sources, at least, way beyond mine :). He had worked on this and several other articles on wikipedia slowly for a year before this sudden rewrite.
- Also we have to have consensus before anyone can attempt it. The reason is historical, I have to explain this background so you understand. On 14th October 2014, then @Joshua Jonathan: began a massive rewrite of the entire article, without discussing it first. Three days later, @Dorje108: reverted his edits saying "Please discuss proposed changes on talk page before making major edits" [10]. @Joshua Jonathan: ignored this request, undid his revert and just kept on going rewriting it according to his own ideas of what it should be like, which, once he had it all to his liking, ended up being an article that only presents the view of inauthenticity of the Pali Canon, the views of Anderson according to which Buddha did not teach the Four Noble Truths, and he also rewrote the text of the Four Truths themselves to accord with his own idea of what Richard Gombrich thought Buddha originally said. The actual text of the four truths in the current version of the article is not quoted from anywhere and doesn't resemble any other online statement of the four truths.
I will collapse the rest of this post, please expand to read:
Extended content
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- So I wouldn't recommend anyone else to attempt to edit the article either, not in the direction of including Walpola Rahula and other mainstream Buddhist views on the four truths, without first getting some consensus on the talk page first to do this.
- I will have to be very careful not to post any more for a while now or I may get taken back to WP:ANI but a one off new long post today - and only one very short post earlier today - I think is okay. Please @Joshua Jonathan: if you plan to take me to WP:ANI for this post please warn me. Please don't delete or revert the post. Just post to my talk page saying I have gone too far by saying this, if that is what you think, and I will remove it myself. Robert Walker (talk) 22:42, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
@Farang Rak Tham: - it must be hard to believe what I just said if you haven't lived through it as I did, even with the diffs. So I had an idea today. I can do an experiment to demonstrate what happens. If I do it in the right way I can make sure that they can't take me to WP:ANI. The idea is to announce my plan here first. @Joshua Jonathan: and @Ms Sarah Welch: - If I add a POV tag to the article and uncollapse the last comment on the talk page, will you consider this sufficient reason to take me back to WP:ANI to get me re-topic banned on the topic of the Four Noble Truths broadly construed?
I will wait two days for an answer, to make sure they have read this comment. Then if they don't reply, or reply saying they won't take me to WP:ANI then I will do as described and you can see what happens. If they revert my edits after I do that, as predicted, then you can try reverting their reverts too, if you feel that it is correct to say that the neutrality of the article has been questioned. So far none of that could count as edit warring. If they then revert your revert too, you will then directly experience for yourself why it is that we need consensus on the talk page first for any change that challenges the current article.
If they do let the POV tag stay in place, I'll be well pleased as I'll feel I've achieved as much as is possible at present, since, as I said, all the editors who could have fixed the article, who used to engage in lively debate on its talk page and the Karma in Buddhism article talk page, have given up editing it and I don't feel I can do it myself. I could of course revert to the old version and ask them to insert new content in a new section, instead of rewriting the entire article to match their POV. I could do that because it would be just me showing support of the scholarship of the previous editors and not attempting to write about the Four Truths myself as a scholar, but that would never work, they would immediately revert it. If the article does get a POV tag then over the fullness of time, which may be months or years, maybe it will also help to attract new scholars to the project who can discuss these POV issues with the article which I've identified, or indeed any other issues, on its talk page, and fix it, will see. Robert Walker (talk) 10:14, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- Of course you can add such a template, but consider the following from Template:POV
An unbalanced or non-neutral article is one that does not fairly represent the balance of perspectives of high-quality, reliable secondary sources. A balanced article presents mainstream views as being mainstream, and minority views as being minority views. The personal views of Wikipedia editors or the public are irrelevant.[...]
This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. You may remove this template whenever any one of the following is true:
There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved.
- The article fairly represents mainstream views; there is a strong concencus that your personal viewpoints are just that: personal viewpoints. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:48, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- Okay thanks that's all I wanted to know, that you won't take me back to WP:ANI for doing it. I'm in no hurry and want to make it absolutely clear that it is not in any way an excessive amount of editing on my part. So I will do it tomorrow or the day after. We are not in consensus about whether it is a consensus view, after all others have also expressed reservations about the article including @Dorje108: of course whose revert you reverted when he asked you to stop and discuss before rewriting the article to your liking. I don't think you could reasonably argue that there was consensus support for your rewrite. You do have several editors who agree with you on this matter. But a group of editors who are like minded on a topic does not make for a consensus. It is more like a faction. And everything I write is heavily cited. And we never had consensus on your idea that Walpola Rahula's "What the Buddha Taught" and other works by Therevadhan bikkhu scholars cannot be used as WP:RS indeed I find it totally absurd that a book written for the general public by the foremost Pali Canon scholar of his time can't be used as a secondary source and I think many others would agree with me there. What does whether or not he has taken the Buddhist monk's vows have to do with whether he is reliable or a secondary source? So I don't see how it is just a "personal viewpoint". Anyway the main thing is, to add the tag, uncollapse the last comment, and then @Farang Rak Tham: and anyone else watching the page and its talk page will see whatever happens after that. Robert Walker (talk) 14:32, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- I will revert the POV tag, because you are repeating what we went over in the past, a "wall of post" one can read in Archive 2 and 3. If someone were to explain or present a new concern, based on RS, the tag is fine (editing and fixing the problem even better). Denying or suppressing mainstream secondary and tertiary publications, published by dozens of scholars, on 4NT, rebirth, etc is inappropriate and unacceptable. Walpola Rahula is already cited in the article, along with others. Please see the template above again, on when to call an article non-neutral. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:09, 12 April 2017 (UTC)