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Let's make some progress on this. Can someone suggest a good workable definition of SPS? Currently, this policy doesn't offer any definition, which is not helpful to editors seeking guidance. -[[User:Michaelbluejay|MichaelBluejay]] ([[User talk:Michaelbluejay|talk]]) 17:07, 10 July 2020 (UTC) |
Let's make some progress on this. Can someone suggest a good workable definition of SPS? Currently, this policy doesn't offer any definition, which is not helpful to editors seeking guidance. -[[User:Michaelbluejay|MichaelBluejay]] ([[User talk:Michaelbluejay|talk]]) 17:07, 10 July 2020 (UTC) |
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:Well, going off the way I'm thinking, possible language would be {{green|Self-published works are those where the author of the content has direct control of publication of that content. This may be when they directly through their own web site or social media account they control, or when they publish through a third-party publisher (such as [[Kindle Direct Publishing]]) or website (such as contributors on ''[[Forbes.com]]'') without any editorial checks prior to publication.}} (This is just a staring point). I feel this doesn't disrupt how SPS are currently used nor affect how past RS decision on SPS would affected (eg cases like SPLC , Quackwatch, etc.) --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 17:15, 10 July 2020 (UTC) |
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== [[PinkNews]] as a reliable source == |
== [[PinkNews]] as a reliable source == |
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Citing a chapter
WP:BURDEN currently advises this:
Cite the source clearly and precisely (specifying page, section, or such divisions as may be appropriate).
I suggest that it say this:
Cite the source clearly and precisely (specifying page, section, chapter, or such divisions as may be appropriate).
Chapters can be particularly convenient in unpaginated ebooks, and not all chapters are further divided into sections. Citing chapters as an alternative to individual pages has long been accepted at Wikipedia:Citing sources#Books.
Naturally, it isn't always the best alternative. Just like it's sometimes appropriate to cite entire books ("Alice Expert says the Sun is really big" with a citation to her book, The Sun is Really Big), it is sometimes appropriate to cite a whole chapter, and it is sometimes appropriate to cite individual pages. The choice should depend upon whether you're summarizing a larger point, or just pulling an individual fact out of one sentence in the book. But I think that it is generally better to encourage people to consider citing a specific chapter than otherwise. Also, science-related books and reference works often have individually authored chapters, so editors should very frequently be naming the chapter and its authors regardless of whether a specific page number is also cited.
What do you think? Would this be an improvement, or not? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- WP:BEBOLD. EEng 18:18, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- That would be a huge step backwards. Ebooks have alternative ways of identifying text, and it's often possible to find a page number for the text via Google Books or Amazon; if not WP:RX can usually help. And it's never appropriate to cite a whole book. Where does the idea come from that that would be enough? SarahSV (talk) 18:27, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- He's only suggesting adding the word chapter. What does your comment have to do with that? And while it's a narrow use case, citing a whole book isn't inconceivable (
The first Random House edition ran to 1203 pages
might be cited to the whole book. Like I said, it's a narrow use case.) EEng 18:39, 15 May 2020 (UTC)- It doesn't make any sense to write "Cite the source clearly and precisely", then suggest that a book chapter might be sufficient. Also, WAID, this is just odd. You wrote: "science-related books and reference works often have individually authored chapters, so editors should very frequently be naming the chapter and its authors regardless of whether a specific page number is also cited." Yes, of course, and we do and not only in science. Edited volumes are common. We cite author, chapter title, editors, book title, page range of the chapter, and the specific page reference. SarahSV (talk) 19:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC); 19:40, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Chapters are already OK if appropriate: they're included in the phrase "or such divisions as may be appropriate". Sometimes they are appropriate. For example, a Wikipedia article cites an equation, and when you go to the source, you find that the equation itself, the definitions of the variables, and caveats about when it is valid are spread throughout a chapter; if you cited each page that was relevant, you'd cite the majority of pages in the chapter.
- I prefer not to specifically mention chapters, because cases where just a chapter is appropriate are unusual, but we certainly shouldn't rule them out. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:00, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Absolutely. Another example: article says
X has been the subject of many popular songs, literary works, films, and dramas
, you might naturally cite a book on X, and specifically the chapter in that book on X in popcult, but no particular page. I see what you mean about the possibility that mentioning chapters in the guideline might tempt people to cite them where a pg# would be more appropriate, but by not mentioning it you risk that, where a pg# isn't available/appropriate, an editor may fail to realize that a chapter# is at least helpful. EEng 21:40, 15 May 2020 (UTC)- You can cite a page range for the examples you give. What book would have no page numbers? It won't only tempt people to cite chapters; they'll do it. The requirement for page numbers for books has been in the policy for over 12 years (added here), but there was a requirement for page numbers on request before that. It would just be odd to remove it. SarahSV (talk) 03:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- There is no requirement to cite pages; other ways of specifying the portion of a work that supports a claim are clearly permissible. Since the requirement does not exist, adding "chapter" will not remove it. Jc3s5h (talk) 04:05, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- It says "specifying page, section, or such divisions as may be appropriate". It goes without saying that pages refer to books and other media that have them. If you're looking at a page, and you extract information from it to add to WP, why would you only cite the chapter? Sometimes Google hides the numbers but there are usually ways round that; Amazon usually offers a limited number; or someone at RX will help. "Clearly and precisely" does not mean chapters only. SarahSV (talk) 04:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- What if I'm not looking at "a page", but rather, the material to support the passage in the Wikipedia article is spread throughout a chapter? Suppose I want to summarize in a table various ways of writing angles in the field of land surveying, and I cite chapter 8, "Angles, bearings, and azimuths", of Wolf & Brinker's Elementary Surveying (n.p.: Harper Collins, 1989). The information about how to represent angles is spread all through the chapter. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:12, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- You can cite a page range for the examples you give. What book would have no page numbers? It won't only tempt people to cite chapters; they'll do it. The requirement for page numbers for books has been in the policy for over 12 years (added here), but there was a requirement for page numbers on request before that. It would just be odd to remove it. SarahSV (talk) 03:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Absolutely. Another example: article says
- It doesn't make any sense to write "Cite the source clearly and precisely", then suggest that a book chapter might be sufficient. Also, WAID, this is just odd. You wrote: "science-related books and reference works often have individually authored chapters, so editors should very frequently be naming the chapter and its authors regardless of whether a specific page number is also cited." Yes, of course, and we do and not only in science. Edited volumes are common. We cite author, chapter title, editors, book title, page range of the chapter, and the specific page reference. SarahSV (talk) 19:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC); 19:40, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- He's only suggesting adding the word chapter. What does your comment have to do with that? And while it's a narrow use case, citing a whole book isn't inconceivable (
- Support this, it's a good addition and an increase in specificity when page numbers don't cut it, or in addition to those. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:53, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sort of support, but what we really want is for citations to be as narrow as practical. If it appears on one page or a few pages, give the page number(s). If it is spread through a chapter, give the chapter, and so on. The qualifier passim is a standard way to indicate that the information is distributed throughout the division indicated. Zerotalk 13:26, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Support I think this suggestion is useful. I appreciate that a chapter is already a "section" or "division" but it is a common one and the chapter title can often be extremely useful. I'm thinking of those huge professional medical books with a couple of editors and chapters written by selected experts: each chapter is similar to a comprehensive review paper with their own topic and authors. So the chapter is an important feature and worth explicitly encouraging. Although this doesn't discourage editors from being even more specific, sometimes the sentence or clause really is sourced to information dispersed throughout a chapter, and one can be too specific. The chapter can also be useful for when page numbers are unhelpful, such as when you have access to a different edition of the book. -- Colin°Talk 10:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
How about if we said
Cite the source clearly
and precisely, ideally giving page number(s) – though sometimes specifying a section, chapter, or other division may be appropriate instead.
- It doesn't make sense to say "clearly and precisely" then "but sometimes not clearly and precisely; sometimes (we won't say when) citing a chapter would be okay". Even when an entire chapter covers something, you can still give a page range, or p. 60ff, or chapter 3, p. 60ff. But if the sourcing policy says editors may cite books but not give page numbers, that's what they will do, and when someone requests a page number, they will point to this policy and say page numbers aren't required. SarahSV (talk) 22:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Gosh, you're right! I've struck the
precisely, leaving theideally giving page number(s)
to make it clear to the reader what the, well, ideal is. As tosometimes (we won't say when) citing a chapter would be okay
you're being silly. We leave a lot of things to editor judgment. Under my proposal we make it clear that we really want a page number if possible, but where that isn't possible or doesn't make sense a chapter or section would be good too. EEng 04:03, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Gosh, you're right! I've struck the
- I begin to wonder how long the chapters are in your typical book.
- I think there is no practical difference between saying "Chapter 7" and "pages 234–241", when chapter 7 happens to begin on page 234 and end on page 241.
- I do think that specifying an ending point is often preferable to saying page 234ff (which means "and the following", which could include any page(s) after that 234 in the entire book). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:59, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- A practical difference between citing a chapter and a page range that matches the chapter is that reference books often have many editions, and editions that are near to each other in order of publication often have the same, or nearly the same, chapters but different pagination. Especially if the title of the chapter is given, a reader who can't find the cited edition may be able to verify the claim in a similar edition. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- It looks like there is general support for including the word "chapter" in this sentence. Would someone like to add that to the policy? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- I agree, and I'll be happy to do it, but since feeling has run high on this let's wait to see if everyone's in agreement, if not with the proposal itself at least with the fact that consensus has been reached. EEng 03:20, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oh wait. Are we talking about the original proposal, or mine a bit above here? But now that I look at mine I don't like it so much, so I guess it's the original we want? EEng 03:34, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
To summarize... The old text was
- (old)
Cite the source clearly and precisely (specifying page, section, or such divisions as may be appropriate).
The original proposal was to change this to
- P1.
Cite the source clearly and precisely (specifying page, section, chapter, or such divisions as may be appropriate).
However, I humbly submit that my alternative ...
- P2.
Cite the source clearly, ideally giving page number(s) – though sometimes a section, chapter, or other division may be appropriate instead.
... might be preferable because it emphasizes that page numbers are "ideal". Pinging Headbomb, Jc3s5h, WhatamIdoing, SlimVirgin, Zero0000, Colin. EEng 15:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm happy with either of the proposals. I do not see either of them as removing an expectation for page numbers (when page numbers exist and are a suitable way of identifying the content, of course). WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:46, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Not easily accessible sources - published sources that are not easily accessible as they once were
I propose this addendum:
"This also means references to sources that had once been accessible, yet are not anymore, cannot be removed solely based on that reason. You have to prove the reference have been unpublished by its original author due to falsity or privacy issues, or is unreliable; in order to remove that reference."
The reason for this proposal is that websites and book copies go exhausted, websites go stale; there have been examples of Wikipedians trying to delete information because of removal, rewriting the history in effect. If we allow published sources that are not easily accessible, we also have to accept the situation of references going dead during the lifetime of this encyclopedia. This never happens with paper encyclopedias because they are fixed on paper and circulated; Wikipedia, however, constantly changes and its main form of consumption is electronic, via interwebs. Erkin Alp Güney 20:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think "prove" is too strong a word. The level of standard for accepting an offline source is WP:AGF: we generally accept these sources without proof unless 1) they are used to support an extraordinary claim; or 2) the person who added them is a habitual liar. Reasonable doubt (i.e. challenging the source not solely because it is inaccessible, but for more substantial reasons) is sufficient to get an offline source removed. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:36, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
This is fundamentally structurally flawed. Wp:ver does not make any requirement that restricts the presence of a reference. It makes reference requirement for the presence of text. There is nothing in wp:ver mandating removal of references. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 01:06, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- This is wrong. Sources must be both Published and Accessible. It is no longer possible to verify that the cited source said ____ when every single copy of that source has been lost. The purpose of our verifiability rules is to make sure that someone can check the source; if no copy of source exists, then the purpose is not met.
- It sounds like you may find the information at WP:DEADREF to be relevant. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:43, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Current rules allow sources that are legally publicly available but hard to access for some people (e.g. physically kept in a limited area, but accessible on demand). My proposal furthers this, and enables referencing "a last remaining copy" (after all, an encyclopedia is a historical artifact) or "a dynamic website gone down with no archives". Erkin Alp Güney 06:01, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- Erkin Alp Güney, I thought that I understood your proposal, and now I think I don't. Imagine that I have cited a paragraph to "a dynamic website gone down with no archives". I'm not quite sure exactly what the "dynamic" part means, but I assume that nobody has a copy of the webpage that I was citing. I went to that website, copied some numbers out of it ("As of April 2020, 4 people in this city had tested positive for COVID-19"). Now the website is gone. Nobody has a copy. Another editor thinks that number is suspiciously low, and thinks I meant to type "40" instead of "4". How will you verify whether I typed the correct information in the Wikipedia article? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:33, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Dynamic website means server-side content generation, depending on user profile and navigation state. How deep you verify accessibility depends on what grounds you get into doubt. If it is inconsistency of added content with what cited source actually claims, for a reference that was accessible at the time when added but not anymore, you have to do that in a reasonable time after it has been first added; after that, it is basically history. If you think that source has never existed, or a falsification for aforementioned sources, you also have to verify the fact for removing it, just like you did for insertion. Erkin Alp Güney 18:34, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Erkinalp9035, this may be a timely question. I'm looking at some websites that report the prices of some drugs. These websites do a quick search of several independent databases (e.g., looking up the price on various sellers' websites). This means that when I add the source on Monday, it will say that the usual price is (e.g.,) $23. When I go back on Friday, to make sure that I got it right, it may say that the price is $22.
- Should people be using that kind of website at all? There is, effectively, no way for anyone to check that the price was actually what I said that it was, at the time that I added it. The most you could do is check what today's price is (which is probably going to be similar, but will probably not be the same). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:37, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Dynamic website means server-side content generation, depending on user profile and navigation state. How deep you verify accessibility depends on what grounds you get into doubt. If it is inconsistency of added content with what cited source actually claims, for a reference that was accessible at the time when added but not anymore, you have to do that in a reasonable time after it has been first added; after that, it is basically history. If you think that source has never existed, or a falsification for aforementioned sources, you also have to verify the fact for removing it, just like you did for insertion. Erkin Alp Güney 18:34, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Erkin Alp Güney, I thought that I understood your proposal, and now I think I don't. Imagine that I have cited a paragraph to "a dynamic website gone down with no archives". I'm not quite sure exactly what the "dynamic" part means, but I assume that nobody has a copy of the webpage that I was citing. I went to that website, copied some numbers out of it ("As of April 2020, 4 people in this city had tested positive for COVID-19"). Now the website is gone. Nobody has a copy. Another editor thinks that number is suspiciously low, and thinks I meant to type "40" instead of "4". How will you verify whether I typed the correct information in the Wikipedia article? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:33, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
- Current rules allow sources that are legally publicly available but hard to access for some people (e.g. physically kept in a limited area, but accessible on demand). My proposal furthers this, and enables referencing "a last remaining copy" (after all, an encyclopedia is a historical artifact) or "a dynamic website gone down with no archives". Erkin Alp Güney 06:01, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Again, the reemedy is not removal of the reference. It is determination that the reference does not fulfill the verifiability requirement for the text, and eventually removal of the text. North8000 (talk) 12:54, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Research Showcase on verifiability next week
Hello, all,
Next week's mw:Research Showcase is on the theme of "Credibility and Verifiability". It will be available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS9Jc3IFhVQ It will start on Wednesday, 17 June 2020 at 16:30 UTC (12:30 p.m. EDT), but it's recorded, so you can watch it later if you want to.
The first presentation is on a project called NewsQ, and I think will mostly about news and something like the circular sourcing problem. We are also promised some comments on what the Showcase's notes called the "US Perennial Sources list". It will be related to this paper.
The second presentation is called "Quantifying Engagement with Citations on Wikipedia", aka "Does anyone actually look at the inline citations?" This paper suggests that the answer is "mostly no", especially when the article is already well-developed.
Please share this with other editors who might be interested. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 23:13, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
We should ban citing some social media: specifically TikTok but probably other garbage as well
I have been very concerned about citing social media like Facebook for 1.) the self-published nature of it, 2.) the frequently wildly inaccurate mis- and disinformation that it spreads, and 3.) tacitly encouraging our users to go to walled garden surveillance networks. I have recently seen citations for TikTok and I think this is too far: in addition to the problems that I have already outlined, this is malware from a totalitarian government. Under no circumstances should we encourage or even allow outgoing links to this. I think we should explicitly state that in the verifiability guidelines and have entries on individual apps and sites that are particularly egregious about this and should never be linked (I would definitely argue that Facebook belongs as well: it is totally inappropriate to encourage any outward links to their tracking ad network). ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:48, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
To be clear: This is specifically about TikTok and its unique problems but I situated it in terms of other social media as well. Please don't allow me to distract from TikTok in particular. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:51, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Would agree but it won't happen. Long ago recommendation to me was.. avoid pop culture junk and focus on academic topics that educate readers. Don't see Facebook used in ancient history or scientific articles.--Moxy 🍁 02:04, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- As to TikTok I would never ever see a case we'd ever need to link to it - can a TikTok post contain *anything* encyclopedicly useful? The new privacy concerns raised would make it worthwhile to eliminate it via blacklisting. Facebook's a different beast as there are informational posts made through there though they will nearly always be primary sourcing. Excluding Facebook would be too wide a net as an immediate issue, and if we start issuing concerns about linking to tracking ad network, that would make almost any offsite linking including to most reliable sources a problem. So this is really not an option. --Masem (t) 02:06, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- Masem, I have seen it cited on Nikki Blonsky. Very inappropriate and is basically posting a link to malware. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:36, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- I believe this diff is what you're talking about which is extremely iffy. We do want self-sourced statements about "coming out" for sexual identity, but I would absolutely say its OR to presume that someoen using the song "Coming Out" via TikTok to do that isn't appropriate. And the weight of the problems of TikTok's security issues would not make it worthwhile to let that link through a blacklist through for this purpose. --Masem (t) 02:25, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- Masem, I have seen it cited on Nikki Blonsky. Very inappropriate and is basically posting a link to malware. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:36, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- I'd support banning all social media links and making TikTok a BADSITE on account that they're Chicoms. The problem is that Wikipedia only exists for fans to read about their fandom, and for most of them that means using primary sources, especially social media. If this were a concerted effort for knowledge we'd ban all primary sources and force the use of secondary sources but we're not about knowledge, we're about high-minded fandom so SanFran gets donations. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:38, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think the subject's social media is acceptable for a limited number of cases, mainly for personal information:
- Gender identity, sexual orientation, and pronouns, especially for marginally notable people where secondary sources may not regurgitate their self-declarations; and
- Birth dates, ditto, unless there is evidence they may be lying.
- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:54, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- King of Hearts, Including social media profiles that are spyware/malware? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
- If this is just about TikTok, WP:RSN is thataway. --Izno (talk) 13:55, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
"Wikipedia:UNSOURCED" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Wikipedia:UNSOURCED. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 1#Wikipedia:UNSOURCED until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Adam9007 (talk) 17:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
AfterEllen as a reliable source
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#AfterEllen. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 00:22, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Bringing this article in line with Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published works
This article is at odds with Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published works. I edited this article to bring them in line. MichaelBluejay (talk) 15:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- Reverted. The policy already tells people to read WP:RS, so repeating what RS says is duplicative bloat.
- That said... if there is some sort of conflict between this policy and a guideline, then the better approach would be to amend the guideline to match this policy. WP:V is a core policy after all. It should take precedence. Blueboar (talk) 15:32, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- ... Or to incorporate content from that guideline if we believe it appropriate for the policy, after reaching consensus. --Izno (talk) 16:14, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- MichaelBluejay made a number of undiscussed changes to WP:USESPS before coming here to "bring them in line". Schazjmd (talk) 18:25, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- First, I did try to discuss here, but I apparently didn't hit Submit after my last Preview, sorry. Yes, I edited Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published works also, because it was internally inconsistent with itself and disorganized. If anyone doesn't like those edits, let's discuss them there. As for this article, editors need a concise definition of SPS and concise guidelines for when they're acceptable and when they're not, and that's what's missing here. Also, it's more accurate and appropriate to class SPS as "May or may not be reliable" rather than "Usually not reliable." Indeed, Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published works characterized SPS as such in several places (before my edits). MichaelBluejay (talk) 18:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- MichaelBluejay made a number of undiscussed changes to WP:USESPS before coming here to "bring them in line". Schazjmd (talk) 18:25, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- ... Or to incorporate content from that guideline if we believe it appropriate for the policy, after reaching consensus. --Izno (talk) 16:14, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- Blueboar is correct: there is a conflict between this article and WP:USINGSPS, including the WP:LEADSENTENCE. Afaic, the definition there is clearly mistaken, and I've opened the discussion WT:USINGSPS#Definition is misleading on its talk page. In my opinion, the discussion here is dependent upon prior resolution there and cannot profitably go forward without it, or the discussions should be merged in an appropriate venue. Michaelbluejay cannot be faulted for attempting to foster consistency among policy pages, so discussion following this recent series of changes will hopefully lead to improvements. Mathglot (talk) 19:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree, WP:USINGSPS should be cleaned up before bringing this article in line with it. I'll check the discussion there and see if there's anything I can contribute. -MichaelBluejay (talk) 10:29, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Michaelbluejay, at least for right now, I've reverted your re-ordering, because it made the changes seem more significant than what they really were. Here's a decent diff for anyone who is interested in seeing how few material changes he made to the wording. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:10, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree, WP:USINGSPS should be cleaned up before bringing this article in line with it. I'll check the discussion there and see if there's anything I can contribute. -MichaelBluejay (talk) 10:29, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
The "bringing in line with" choice of words sort of confused matters. It sort of implies that making a core policy become consistent with a supplementary page is itself a reason to change the core policy.North8000 (talk) 12:49, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- The point of “supplementary pages” is to EXPAND on concepts that are presented in the policy or guideline. That means a) the supplement should conform to the policy (not the other way around), and b) the supplement will contain DETAILS that are NOT necessarily included in the policy. That said... I welcome the opportunity to bring the supplement back into line with this policy. Blueboar (talk) 14:47, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- The actual policy is that you make all the conflicting pages reflect the current community consensus, regardless of which pages say "policy" or "guideline" or "supplement" or anything else at the top. Also, relevantly, that page explains a concept that is found in multiple policies and guidelines, not just this one. We can't bring a page "in line" with just one of them. The definition of a self-published source needs to be the same in WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:BLP, WP:N, WP:NOT, and more. The community will never stand for us claiming that a bio about an employee is self-published if it's at a government agency's website but non-self-published if it's at a university website (even though WP:NPROF would appreciate it), or self-published on a small business's website but non-self-published on a large business's website (even though that was tried on this talk page years ago). WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:15, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- A discussion about changing the definition of self-published in any policy page should take place at WP:VPP, not at Wikipedia Talk:USINGSPS. Schazjmd (talk) 22:27, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- Schazjmd, if there were actually a definition of that term in any policy page, I would probably agree with you (WT:V would be another reasonable location). But there isn't, so it logically follows that there can't be any discussion about changing it. There's no definition in any policy page to talk about changing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:26, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing, my point is that a change to a policy (including adding a definition that isn't there) needs to be a community-wide discussion at WP:VPP. Schazjmd (talk) 18:31, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
- It is normal for discussions about this policy to happen on this page. (I haven't seen Michael proposing any changes to the definition, though.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:42, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing, my point is that a change to a policy (including adding a definition that isn't there) needs to be a community-wide discussion at WP:VPP. Schazjmd (talk) 18:31, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
- Schazjmd, if there were actually a definition of that term in any policy page, I would probably agree with you (WT:V would be another reasonable location). But there isn't, so it logically follows that there can't be any discussion about changing it. There's no definition in any policy page to talk about changing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:26, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
- A discussion about changing the definition of self-published in any policy page should take place at WP:VPP, not at Wikipedia Talk:USINGSPS. Schazjmd (talk) 22:27, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- I don’t think it matters where the discussion is held, but we do want the wider community to be involved... especially if we are contemplating more than minor tweaks )and changing the definition is definitely more than a minor tweak). So... the discussion should probably be at least ADVERTISED at the pump. Blueboar (talk) 19:00, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
- To basically summarize, "self-published" should not only includes the situation where the person that wrote the material also controls the "publication medium" which is what WP:V already gives, but as we're finding out to be clearer, should also cover the situation when the the author controls the publication process. That is, this would be an approach that would cover the Forbes Contributor model that we know there's no editorial involvement between the author clicking "submit" and the appearance on Forbes.com - we currently don't call that self-published because, well, Forbes.com owns the site, but if we extend the idea to cover the process and not just the medium, then it covers that and things like open journals w/ no peer-review process, Medium.com and a bunch more questionalbe sites cleanly. --Masem (t) 00:16, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
- I call those Forbes Contributor blog posts self-published, and I know that I'm not the only editor with that view. Whenever the same person/organization/entity controls what's written and when/whether/how it sees the light of day, then it's self-published.
- https://www.lexico.com/definition/self-publish specifies "independently and at one's own expense", which is a formulation that may appeal to some editors, because it includes the Forbes Contributors/Medium/HuffPo bloggers, the ebook and invented-my-own-publishing-house publishers, and the business/org websites, but could be construed to exclude government websites and publications (because although the government agencies publish their materials "independently" in some sense, the taxpayers pay the expenses). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:41, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Let's make some progress on this. Can someone suggest a good workable definition of SPS? Currently, this policy doesn't offer any definition, which is not helpful to editors seeking guidance. -MichaelBluejay (talk) 17:07, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- Well, going off the way I'm thinking, possible language would be Self-published works are those where the author of the content has direct control of publication of that content. This may be when they directly through their own web site or social media account they control, or when they publish through a third-party publisher (such as Kindle Direct Publishing) or website (such as contributors on Forbes.com) without any editorial checks prior to publication. (This is just a staring point). I feel this doesn't disrupt how SPS are currently used nor affect how past RS decision on SPS would affected (eg cases like SPLC , Quackwatch, etc.) --Masem (t) 17:15, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
PinkNews as a reliable source
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#PinkNews. It's a reassessment matter. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:49, 10 July 2020 (UTC)