→Medical advice question removed at Science Desk: Lots of deep thought... |
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I removed a medical-advice question and its answers, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&diff=prev&oldid=535416794 (diff)]. [[User:Nimur|Nimur]] ([[User talk:Nimur|talk]]) 22:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC) |
I removed a medical-advice question and its answers, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science&diff=prev&oldid=535416794 (diff)]. [[User:Nimur|Nimur]] ([[User talk:Nimur|talk]]) 22:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:Good removal. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 01:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC) |
:Good removal. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 01:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC) |
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== question about sickness removed at Science Desk == |
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I agree with the above, but on the other hand, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FScience&diff=535806034&oldid=535805660 this edit] was not justified. The edit contradicts the guideline at [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines]] in two ways. |
I agree with the above, but on the other hand, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FScience&diff=535806034&oldid=535805660 this edit] was not justified. The edit contradicts the guideline at [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines]] in two ways. |
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::::No one here is qualified to edit [[Health#Self-care_strategies]] either, but nonetheless it remain editable. The issue is not whether anyone here is qualified to answer this question. We can find sources that cover the legitimate scientific question of how much effect genetics vs. environment have on general health. The issue is whether telling the OP about some of the known contributors to poor health or good health which are behavioral instead of genetic is ''giving him medical advice''. Why is it that I can advocate things such as washing hands with soap and brushing and flossing teeth if I am editing [[Health#Self-care_strategies]], but not if I am answering a question that isn't even close to being a request for medical advice? --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 22:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC) |
::::No one here is qualified to edit [[Health#Self-care_strategies]] either, but nonetheless it remain editable. The issue is not whether anyone here is qualified to answer this question. We can find sources that cover the legitimate scientific question of how much effect genetics vs. environment have on general health. The issue is whether telling the OP about some of the known contributors to poor health or good health which are behavioral instead of genetic is ''giving him medical advice''. Why is it that I can advocate things such as washing hands with soap and brushing and flossing teeth if I am editing [[Health#Self-care_strategies]], but not if I am answering a question that isn't even close to being a request for medical advice? --[[User:Guy Macon|Guy Macon]] ([[User talk:Guy Macon|talk]]) 22:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:My opinion on this matter was requested. I have given this deep thought. My official position on this matter is this: Meh. I hope that provides the additional input everyone needs to resolve this issue. --[[User:Jayron32|<font style="color:#000099">Jayron</font>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<font style="color:#009900">32</font>]]''''' 00:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC) |
:My opinion on this matter was requested. I have given this deep thought. My official position on this matter is this: Meh. I hope that provides the additional input everyone needs to resolve this issue. --[[User:Jayron32|<font style="color:#000099">Jayron</font>]]'''''[[User talk:Jayron32|<font style="color:#009900">32</font>]]''''' 00:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC) |
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: It wasn't an actionable request for medical advice, that's for sure. |
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: StuRat gave a fine answer, which remains despite the unnecessary hatting. |
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: (To avoid confusion, I'm splitting this discussion off from the thread above it.) —[[User:Ummit|Steve Summit]] ([[User talk:Ummit|talk]]) 00:19, 1 February 2013 (UTC) |
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New RefDesk header
Okay, it's been a while now and I haven't seen any complaints regarding the suggested changes to the RefDesk boilerplate, while I have seen a number of !votes of support. Due to vandalism a few years back, the various templates that go into making up the headers are fully protected, which means that an admin needs to make the changes (ideally, one who really understands how they fit together as, from what I gather, it is not a straightforward thing at all). Do we have a volunteer from the audience? :) Matt Deres (talk) 14:22, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
- Seconding this - please? I thought Matt has a great idea; several people have given positive input and no one has objected and the discussion has continued for more than two weeks. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 14:41, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
- I strongly suggest we retain the "and may remove" wording for the medical and legal advice. We do occasionally get questions that are bad enough that they should be removed outright rather than just hatted. Without that wording we are eventually going to get into a brawl on the talk page with the outraged OP told that we used to warn people, but we removed the wording. Given Matt's open invitation to do so, I am going to reinsert the phrase. μηδείς (talk) 17:23, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, and I second this going up as well. Someone who can read the edit history could probably contact the last admin who changed the template. μηδείς (talk) 17:27, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
- That would be Froth, but his WP time has been very intermittent lately. Matt Deres (talk) 02:41, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
- Incidentally, the rough draft of the proposed new header is here. I agree your addition is reasonable and have added it there (nothing against the rough draft in the earlier thread, but it needed translating into wiki-markup and user space seemed a reasonable place to hash all that out). Matt Deres (talk) 02:47, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
- I've left a message for an admin (I hope, I think User talk:TenOfAllTrades is an admin). 184.147.123.169 (talk) 14:35, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
- I've left a message for Froth; hopefully he's online and has the time to help us out. For some reason, the bot archived the previous discussion to Archive 96 instead of Archive 97. Not sure why, but that's why you couldn't see it. Matt Deres (talk) 21:26, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
- Hi there. The pages you're going to want to edit are Wikipedia:Reference_desk/header/howtoask and Wikipedia:Reference_desk/header/howtoanswer. They're just regular wikitext. Regards .froth. (talk) 21:31, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
- The bot's behaviour is to be expected. According to the config for MiszaBot in this page, the counter is still 96 'counter = 96'. Note that the bot does not care (and probably doesn't even know until it tries to use them) what other archive pages exist. If archive pages 1-1000000000 exists it's still going to use archive 96 if that's what the counter says until it reaches the set size limit. (At least for the normal archiving system, those using a dated archive page will function differently.) If no archive pages exist, it's still going to create and use archive 96 if that's what the counter says. If you want to change what archive page it's using, you need to manually adjust the counter.
- At the time you created archive 97, archive 96 was just over 100k. However the bot is currently set to a size limit of 200k ('maxarchivesize = 200K'). So the bot is going to continue to add stuff to it until it reaches 200k. (IIRC from the way the bot used to work, even if you add stuff so the page is over 200k the bot may still add one more thread before it moves to the next page so I think manually adjusting the counter is ideal if you start a new archive page when the bot is still set to use the old one.) 200k is generally considered a reasonable archive size on pages with reasonably frequent discussions like this one, to make browsing of archives, and location of stuff you can't search easier. While also being not too unreasonable for those on slower connections only checking out one or two threads they know the location of. But if you want to change the archive size, I doubt anyone would object.
- Anyway, to reduce confusion I moved stuff from archive 97 to the archiving order location in archive 96. I also checked and there doesn't seem to be any discussion of archive 97 besides this one, nor any links (from what links here) although I would have missed discussion which e.g. used WT:Reference desk/Archive 97 and other shortcut formats and only did a manual search of archive 96 since I presume nothing in archive 95 and older referred to stuff in archive 97. (Archive 96 could have since some of the stuff came from after archive 97.)
- Nil Einne (talk) 02:28, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Answering Admin A decision has been made to replace the boilerplate at the top of the RefDesk pages. The new text can be found here, and the instructions about where it should go are immediately above this text. There is also a comment field on the proposed new text page which shows where the two should be split. Thanks! Matt Deres (talk) 02:28, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Done Monty845 04:28, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- Seems a little weird to have the two ask a question buttons so near each other, but it appears from the above discussion that the revision has support, but I didn't see any discussion of removing that one. Monty845 04:37, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- No, you're right. I didn't know/realize/consider that the existing "ask a question" button was separate. One should be removed. Also, I didn't take into consideration the menu on the right hand side taking up space so that, for me at least, the page does not fit on the screen. The search boxes should probably get trimmed from 60 down to 40 or 50. Thank you for your help. Matt Deres (talk) 14:50, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- Seems a little weird to have the two ask a question buttons so near each other, but it appears from the above discussion that the revision has support, but I didn't see any discussion of removing that one. Monty845 04:37, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Not for nothing, but if you don’t so much know HTML/CSS well (or simply don’t care), the least you could do is not protect a thing so only you can edit it.¦ Reisio (talk) 03:29, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Full protecting the headers was a necessary step after a well known troll a long while ago. The troll appears to have reformed, but it will be hardly surprising if someone else tries the same thing. As I mentioned above, the best way for this to be handled was for someone who does understand how the templates work to propose the exact changes before hand and petitioning someone to come and make them once they have consensus and an exact proposal. This is a fairly standard way of dealing with changes to both fully protected and semi protected pages. While the RD isn't that important nor the header widely used, it's still the sort of thing for which ideally changes should be made without requiring re-editing to fix mistakes. In other words, I'm not sure if it was really ideal to make these changes live anyway although the header is a fairly complicated layout making sandboxing fairly difficult. I started to make a sandbox but gave up when I decided it would take too long for someone thing I'm not sure if anyone is going to use before it gets out of sync. It may be easier to only sandbox the parts needed to test. Alternatively if no one is confident enough they can propose a change which will definitely not break anything (confident enough they can ask someone else to copy it over who doesn't understand what they're doing) and hopefully work as expected it should be possible to seek help from someone who could. This isn't a criticism of Matt Deres, but I note no one else who cared and understood what to do (I didn't for the former and while I may have been able to for the later, I obviously had little desire to) volunteered to help design the changes that I saw. As I mentioned in an earlier post, and reemphasised here, there's no reason most this part had to be done by an admin. Working out precisely what is needed, testing it where possible, getting consensus and then asking an admin to edit the protected page via the editprotected template is a normal way of dealing which such things including for templates. If the admin needs to spend too much of their time working out what is needed this makes it far less likely a change will be carried out, the whole point of the editprotected template is it should be a simple edit for the admin. (And even if a small amount of live testing would have been acceptable, we definitely did not want a lot if it, so it's not like it was that big of an inconvenience.) Nil Einne (talk) 11:37, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- I undid the part of the change that placed the two search-boxes side-by-side (technically, in adjacent cells in the same row). The result of that formatting was that the box is fairly wide (2x60char input fields), which caused side-scrolling on small monitors. Having it as two separate rows prevents forcing the box to be wide. This problem (side-by-side too wide) and solution (above-and-below) has been discussed multiple times on various refdesk talkpages over the years (previous implementation was my work from 2010 pursuant to one of those discussions). DMacks (talk) 10:35, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you very much. Do you also have the ability to remove the redundant "After reading the above, you may ... ask a new question" section? 184.147.123.15 (talk) 15:57, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Done. Wikipedia:Reference desk/header/howtoask removed from Wikipedia:Reference desk/header/leftside. DMacks (talk) 17:14, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- Excellent, thank you! 184.147.123.15 (talk) 19:48, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yes thanks. It looks awful up there now, but it always did; at least now the horizontal overflow is back to normal. :) ¦ Reisio (talk) 20:08, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you very much. Do you also have the ability to remove the redundant "After reading the above, you may ... ask a new question" section? 184.147.123.15 (talk) 15:57, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
New template glitch / can we add suggestion people provide links?
I believe I am seeing two "ask a new question" buttons, one just below the other?
If that is indeed a glitch, I assume it can be fixed.
I am also wondering if it might not be helpful to add a line with or after "tell us what part of the world your question applies to" suggesting "give us a link to any web address or wikipedia articles you are asking about" or something similar. μηδείς (talk) 04:12, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
- I like that suggestion. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 06:15, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
- StuRat's version is good. That should go well as a stand alone comment under "tell us what part of the world your question applies to" μηδείς (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe, but generally speaking people never read that stuff. I have been a sporadic ref desk user for years and I have never once read that blurb at the top. Instructions telling people how to ask questions are largely a waste of time because no one imagines they need to be instructed. 86.160.87.95 (talk) 18:25, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- StuRat's version is good. That should go well as a stand alone comment under "tell us what part of the world your question applies to" μηδείς (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's much shorter than it used to be, which is definite progress. For that reason, I'd vote against adding to it further. Of course the tone could be more direct/attention-getting, such as (instead of the "How can I get my question answered?" section): 184.147.123.15 (talk) 21:41, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Please do this: A few "don'ts": * Provide a short header that gives the general topic of the question. * Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. We'll answer here within a few days. * Type ~~~~ (four tildes) at the end - this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when. * We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice. * Post your question to only one desk. * We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate. (Optional but helpful: Tell us what part of the world your question applies to and link to the web sites or Wikipedia articles you mention.) We don't do your homework for you, though we’ll help you past the stuck point.
Republicanism
We've got five (as of now) disruptive [1] or nonsense questions posed by this User within the last hours. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Republicanism I have warned him to stop on his talk page. [2] I hope an admin will take action should this continue. μηδείς (talk) 03:55, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- Anyone know what sock drawer he fits in? Is this Bowei Huang or someone else? --Jayron32 03:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure it's Bowei Huang as I mentioned here [3]. Beyond the similarity in question type and style and occasional participation in RDE, there's also the fact that they came around not long after MX896 and an Australian IP was also asking similar questions. MX896 was blocked although not linked to BWH. Nil Einne (talk) 04:08, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- Are you familiar with the concept of being contrary, StuRat? You are quite aware he's spamming us with vague invitations to give opinions and engage in debate, at best. There's little point in objecting to that observation with the comment that you think you can understand what he's talking about. The ref desks aren't about answering any question we can manage to find some sort of sense in. We have standards ever so slightly higher than that.
- I also note your playing good cop at Republicanism's talk page. I suggest we do indeed look at this as a matter of self-policing. Because if this were to go to ANI I don't think the question raised by non-ref desk editors would be so much how to discipline Republicanism as it would be why do we need a ref desk at all if it can't be properly managed by those who volunteer there? μηδείς (talk) 04:38, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- On matters like this we have make a judgement between malicious trolling or incompetence on the part of the pestiferous editor. I lean towards the latter. Still a bloody nuisance. HiLo48 (talk) 06:13, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- Jayron, there's a big difference between "While you might mean well, you're inadvertently disrupting things - please refrain from contributing until you know how to do so constructively" and "You're being disruptive! You must be a sockpuppet of a banned user!". Your two comments in this thread taken together seem to indicate you've taken the latter approach here - I doubt that's the case, but that's the impression they give off. If you want to instigate a sock puppet investigation, it's best to support it beyond "he's displayed disruptive behavior - no judgement call required". (Again, I'm not saying that's what you're doing, I'm just saying that's how this thread reads.) -- 71.35.98.191 (talk) 21:08, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- Feel free to offer to mentor the user Republicanism. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, you misunderstand my point. I wasn't saying that Republicanism should be mentored. I wasn't saying that if he should have been, I would have been an appropriate person to do so. I wasn't even claiming that Republicanism wasn't a sockpuppet. My comment was regarding the tone of the discussion here. What I was trying to point out is that there is a big distinction between a user making incompetent edits and a user being a sockpuppet. The former isn't sufficient for conclusion of the latter - heck, it isn't even necessary. That's what I was trying to point out. The essay WP:CIR is simply pointing out that disruptive edits are disruptive, regardless of intent. It is overreaching to extend that to saying that disruptive edits are prima facie evidence that the user is a sockpuppet. If HiLo (at the time he posted his previous comment) was still undecided about the incompetence/malice distinction, he would have been unlikely to agree that the user needs to be "[fitted in a] sock drawer" because of it. The process by which incompetence and malice are treated are different, even if the eventual result for intractable cases may be the same. - Process matters. It's the difference between organized rule of law and cowboy justice. -- 71.35.98.191 (talk) 18:19, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Bowei and his endless sockpuppets have been a royal pain for a couple of years now, if not more, so the "tone" you're griping about is due to built-up annoyance. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yes. And let's be clear, as I've said several times it remains unclear whether there is any malice on the part of Bowei Huang. However his disruptive behaviour has led to being blocked and therefore sockpuppeting is forbidden, whether or not there is any malice. Nil Einne (talk) 02:53, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
- Bowei and his endless sockpuppets have been a royal pain for a couple of years now, if not more, so the "tone" you're griping about is due to built-up annoyance. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, you misunderstand my point. I wasn't saying that Republicanism should be mentored. I wasn't saying that if he should have been, I would have been an appropriate person to do so. I wasn't even claiming that Republicanism wasn't a sockpuppet. My comment was regarding the tone of the discussion here. What I was trying to point out is that there is a big distinction between a user making incompetent edits and a user being a sockpuppet. The former isn't sufficient for conclusion of the latter - heck, it isn't even necessary. That's what I was trying to point out. The essay WP:CIR is simply pointing out that disruptive edits are disruptive, regardless of intent. It is overreaching to extend that to saying that disruptive edits are prima facie evidence that the user is a sockpuppet. If HiLo (at the time he posted his previous comment) was still undecided about the incompetence/malice distinction, he would have been unlikely to agree that the user needs to be "[fitted in a] sock drawer" because of it. The process by which incompetence and malice are treated are different, even if the eventual result for intractable cases may be the same. - Process matters. It's the difference between organized rule of law and cowboy justice. -- 71.35.98.191 (talk) 18:19, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Feel free to offer to mentor the user Republicanism. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- Jayron, there's a big difference between "While you might mean well, you're inadvertently disrupting things - please refrain from contributing until you know how to do so constructively" and "You're being disruptive! You must be a sockpuppet of a banned user!". Your two comments in this thread taken together seem to indicate you've taken the latter approach here - I doubt that's the case, but that's the impression they give off. If you want to instigate a sock puppet investigation, it's best to support it beyond "he's displayed disruptive behavior - no judgement call required". (Again, I'm not saying that's what you're doing, I'm just saying that's how this thread reads.) -- 71.35.98.191 (talk) 21:08, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- The odd thing is that he keeps asking the same questions over and over. Maybe any opinion-requesting post could be boxed up ASAP? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- Republicanism has now been blocked as a sock of Bowei Huang. [4] by a checkuser. Guess I was mistaken about Bowei Huang's last edits likely being too old for linkage via a checkuser. Nil Einne (talk) 02:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Good. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 02:34, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, good. Classic case of (at least currently) incurable incompetence. (I always try to retain some hope for improvement, at some time.) HiLo48 (talk) 02:41, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- "By their fruits ye shall know them". -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 03:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Are questions of moral value acceptable on RD?
Disclaimer: I think if people look at my small history of RD answers, they'll see that I'm willing to attempt at answering questions that many others would consider unworthy of the Reference Desk. So I may butt some heads with this question and any ensuing discussion, but also anyone checking my history will know that I don't mind rough discussion, so don't pull any punches if you do want disabuse me of my RD-inclusionist ways.
I don't want to debate the actions of User:Republicanism, but my question may have relevance to some aspects of that case. But just know that nothing I say should be construed as suggesting that Republicanism's questions themselves should have been treated any different from how they were.
When a user asks whether something is good or bad, I don't really see this as only a request for mere, unverifiable opinion. Maybe it is just an attempt at trolling, but I don't think it's necessary that it is. So on a charitable reading I just take it to be a question concerning the discipline of ethics. Now maybe some editors do believe that ethics is just mere opinion. That's fine, I don't want to try here and now to convince others that it's more than that. But holding the opinion that ethics itself is a matter of opinion is not enough to overrule the significant viewpoint that its not. That is to say, there are, I think, sources which lay out ethical theories and make ethical statements, and these sources are considered reliable by the standards of the English Wikipedia. To me, that seems like enough: If some work on ethics is published by a mainstream academic press or journal, and this work can offer an answer (even if not the right one) to a question as to whether something is good or bad, then such a question is acceptable on the Humanities Reference Desk. And it goes similarly for other questions and other reliable sources. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 06:34, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
- While I generally agree that if a non-trolling, non-advice question can be answered with reference, it should be, I don't know if I can support this. It's not that they don't deserve an answer, exactly, but I'm not sure our community is really in a position to do so. Ethics might be a well-studied field, but if I'm not mistaken, the details can vary a great deal between cultures. Better to avoid the minefield entirely. Mingmingla (talk) 22:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
- A question of "whether X is bad" is an unequivocal invitation to debate. A question as to "whether X is bad according to Y-ism" is a totally different thing, but one we rarely encounter. Even then it may be trolling, since I don't want people reading this to think that a whole spate of random "is X okay according to Z" questions will be tolerated. μηδείς (talk) 22:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
- You should know I respect all your answers Medeis,
- Given that philosophy is the root of most modern science, and today plainly at the heart of the humanities, of course we can answer questions about morality. There are any number of sources both for general analysis, e.g. John Rawls' A Theory of Justice or Sandel's Justice, or Kant's A Critique of Pure Reason. And of course there are innumerable sources for the morality of specific actions or systems. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
- Explicit requests for sources on ethical questions are fine (which is rare though), and there may be some odd questions that just need to be left alone long enough for the more resourceful responders to have the time to provide interesting sources. Otherwise I'm ambivalent and do not mind whenever trolling nonsense gets shut down. -Modocc (talk) 00:39, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
I've taken everything you four have said to heart. I propose adding to the guideline here: "The reference desk is not for asking open-ended questions as to whether something is moral, immoral, good, bad, right, or wrong. Such questions should be made with regards to a specific ethical theory, philosophy, religion or worldview. For example: Questions like "Is lying wrong?" are unacceptable. Questions like "Is lying wrong according to Kant?" or "Is lying wrong in Islam?" are acceptable, assuming they also meet other policies and guidelines." So questioners asking the open-ended ones can be directed to this guideline and requested to re-ask the question with more specifics. This helps in avoiding pointless debate and trolling, but also rightly directs those questioners who are honestly trying to get references and answers for ethical issues. Obviously a whole spate of questions on this topic should not be tolerated, but I think that's true for any topic. Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 15:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
- One problem we have is the tunnel vision of some of our editors. We get a lot of questions about institutions or practices in the USA which don't say they are about the USA. The questioner is simply not thinking of the wider world. So a question of "Is lying wrong?" can really mean "Is lying wrong in mid-western American Christianity?" Is that OK? HiLo48 (talk) 20:48, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
- See also: WP:Randy_in_Boise - Cucumber Mike (talk) 22:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Teahouse
Should a link to Wikipedia:Teahouse be placed on the section "For help specific to the operation of Wikipedia:"?···Vanischenu「m/Talk」 09:48, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
- That article needs a better illustration. The teacup has been sitting there so long that leaves have fallen into it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:48, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Rate of fire
I did not try to offend anyone by my statement, but I asked a simple question and I was treated like a little child. I have served in the USN and traveled the world over. The first question was answered by either a lady or gentleman was very rude. I asked my question and really got no answer. The I did not read down far enough to find the answer that I wanted. The lady or gentleman that gave me the answer of about 12 rounds per hour, I do thank you for your help — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.220.166.195 (talk) 00:39, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- I haven't responded to any of your questions, but I am sorry that your experience hasn't been the best. What my compatriots were trying to tell you, with varying degrees of success, is that Wikipedia is a global project and terms like "civil war" are vague because they've been used in so many times and so many places. See, if you and I were sitting in a bar together and I asked for directions to Springfield, you'd assume it was the one closest to us, but that doesn't work when we're in different countries; you don't know what Springfield I'm talking about. To be honest, some of the attitude you experienced is because, by and large, Americans seem to have a more difficult time understanding how "un-local" the rest of the world is. Yours is not the only president, yours is not the only senate, and yours is not the only Civil War. The relevant article is American exceptionalism (and, less euphemistically, Ugly American). Matt Deres (talk) 01:44, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- Putting aside the ridiculous overreaction from Alex, and Matt's typical response above ("americans are vain"; give me a break) and those that followed, you got some decent answers. You could have just googled the exact same question. Your follow up version was just plain silly. There's a lot of silly anti-americanism on here, and similarly, the anti-commonwealth mentality. Silly nationalism is par. Quit making such a big thing out of it, at least like this. Shadowjams (talk) 03:33, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Shadowjams, the "Americans do X" bullshit is not appropriate or necessary or true. The OP's threads have been closed by Americans and moved here by Americans, and an apology would not be out of order. μηδείς (talk) 04:24, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- I think the questioner needs a slightly thicker skin if they are going to ask questions on the internet. As to the civil war lots of countries have had them, and as to the other businesses mentioned without context like a president and a senate Ireland for one can claim all three, if claim is the right word to apply to a short but bloody civil war which incidentally also involved field guns. I don't think there are any civil war buffs in Ireland who try and recreate it though! Dmcq (talk) 14:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- Give it time.... Alansplodge (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- All the IP had to do was say, "American" Civil War, instead of going off on a rant. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:29, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- My experience has been that even asking obvious clarification questions like "Which Civil War?" leads to some of the more sensitive(?) among us telling me that I should have been able to work it out. I think it's important to educate questioners that it's important to make their questions as clear as possible. The reality is that there is an awful lot of American editors and readers of Wikipedia. Even if it's the same proportion of them as from other countries who ask questions biased towards their own country without making it clear that they're doing so, that means a larger number of Americans will. HiLo48 (talk) 01:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's even more pointed than that. Sometimes the message is like: "Not only should you have been able to work it out, but I know you in fact have worked it out, and you're just playing dumb in order to make the point that people should specify what they're talking about". We all learn from these sorts of interactions, but in saying that, I don't know that there's any easy or quick fix. There will always be a tension between:
- those who believe a reference is self-explanatory
- those who are genuinely in need of further information, and
- those who can work it out but feel they shouldn't have had to.
- Best we can do is minimise it. Maybe if some were more prepared to be a little more specific in their posts, and others were prepared to be a little less global in their perceptions. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 01:51, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- To me, the bottom line question for the original poster is, "How badly do you want to know? Are you here to learn, or are you here to hassle us because we're not mind-readers?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:10, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- But Bugs, the real tunnel-visioned ones won't even understand that they're hassling us. HiLo48 (talk) 02:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Why is that our problem? Is it our responsibility to de-dense the dense? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- The problem in this case is that no one gave the OP a chance to prove their lack of density before they were jumped on for not fully explaining themselves. Yes, we are not mind readers but neither is a question asker, and as such we should avoid assuming they'll react badly if we ask a simple clarifying question. If someone, the first to respond, had just asked. "Sorry to bother you, but there have been a lot of civil wars in history. Could you clarify which one you mean?" and then everyone just kept quiet until the OP responded to that sort of question, we could have proceeded from there. The main problem is that everyone started with the assumption that the OP was an idiot, and made pointed, obtuse, and borderline insulting responses which put the OP on the defensive; it isn't any wonder that they reacted badly when they came back to see what responses they got and ended up with the kind of silly hostility that was greeting them. Did the OP need to clarify which civil war so people here could answer intelligently. Yes, but they were never given that chance. --Jayron32 04:10, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- In my view the thing to have done would have been to make the obvious assumption that the OP was asking about the American Civil War and answered the question on that basis. I don't agree that we should be educating questioners to make their questions country-specific. It's not a big deal. Just answer the question already! --Viennese Waltz 10:28, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- As noted below, the OP still doesn't seem to realize that this is not a US-only website. As an American, I immediately assumed "USN" meant "US Navy", just as I figured he was probably asking about the American Civil War in the first place. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:34, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- My point exactly. Those are the obvious assumptions to make, so why bother asking the OP to clarify? I couldn't care less if someone doesn't specify their country and the country they're talking about is as obvious as this. --Viennese Waltz 14:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- The question could be whether the ones who started jumping on the questioner (who only posted the one time, by the way) was because they truly didn't understand, or if they were just being nitpicky in the style of Cuddlyable. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- My point exactly. Those are the obvious assumptions to make, so why bother asking the OP to clarify? I couldn't care less if someone doesn't specify their country and the country they're talking about is as obvious as this. --Viennese Waltz 14:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- As noted below, the OP still doesn't seem to realize that this is not a US-only website. As an American, I immediately assumed "USN" meant "US Navy", just as I figured he was probably asking about the American Civil War in the first place. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:34, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- In my view the thing to have done would have been to make the obvious assumption that the OP was asking about the American Civil War and answered the question on that basis. I don't agree that we should be educating questioners to make their questions country-specific. It's not a big deal. Just answer the question already! --Viennese Waltz 10:28, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- The problem in this case is that no one gave the OP a chance to prove their lack of density before they were jumped on for not fully explaining themselves. Yes, we are not mind readers but neither is a question asker, and as such we should avoid assuming they'll react badly if we ask a simple clarifying question. If someone, the first to respond, had just asked. "Sorry to bother you, but there have been a lot of civil wars in history. Could you clarify which one you mean?" and then everyone just kept quiet until the OP responded to that sort of question, we could have proceeded from there. The main problem is that everyone started with the assumption that the OP was an idiot, and made pointed, obtuse, and borderline insulting responses which put the OP on the defensive; it isn't any wonder that they reacted badly when they came back to see what responses they got and ended up with the kind of silly hostility that was greeting them. Did the OP need to clarify which civil war so people here could answer intelligently. Yes, but they were never given that chance. --Jayron32 04:10, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Why is that our problem? Is it our responsibility to de-dense the dense? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- But Bugs, the real tunnel-visioned ones won't even understand that they're hassling us. HiLo48 (talk) 02:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- To me, the bottom line question for the original poster is, "How badly do you want to know? Are you here to learn, or are you here to hassle us because we're not mind-readers?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:10, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's even more pointed than that. Sometimes the message is like: "Not only should you have been able to work it out, but I know you in fact have worked it out, and you're just playing dumb in order to make the point that people should specify what they're talking about". We all learn from these sorts of interactions, but in saying that, I don't know that there's any easy or quick fix. There will always be a tension between:
- By the way, is USN the United States navy? I stuck USN into Google and it just came back with a whole page of returns about Ultimate Sports Nutrition. Dmcq (talk) 10:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Google?! There's an encyclopedia around here some place, with its own search function, and I'm reliably informed (by myself) that if you search for USN you get United States Navy. Try it some time. :) -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 10:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry yes so it does. I normally use Google to resolve what a name refers to though - I don't rely on Wikipedia for that sort of thing. In fact by WP:COMMONNAME if we had an article of USN it looks like there would be a strong case for it to refer to that food supplement! Dmcq (talk) 11:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Google?! There's an encyclopedia around here some place, with its own search function, and I'm reliably informed (by myself) that if you search for USN you get United States Navy. Try it some time. :) -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 10:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- The first reply was rude? The first reply politely asked if you would mind telling us which civil war you were asking about.(Since there have been an awful lot of them.) Apparently you did mind, but the reply was in no way rude. APL (talk) 11:24, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ikr... "Do you mind telling us which nation's Civil War you have in mind, please?". "Please"? What an attempt at talking down to someone... But in all seriousness, perhaps if the OP had taken part in the question's discussion prior to it being archived, they would have noticed that some things needed clarification, and it wouldn't have gone on this long. I would have guessed U.S Civil War though... despite being from Australia - that is, Australia, Earth, to clarify. HandsomeNick (TALK) (EDITS) 02:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, but it was pretty easy to guess he wasn't asking about Australia's civil war, or not even this one. HiLo48 (talk) 02:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ikr... "Do you mind telling us which nation's Civil War you have in mind, please?". "Please"? What an attempt at talking down to someone... But in all seriousness, perhaps if the OP had taken part in the question's discussion prior to it being archived, they would have noticed that some things needed clarification, and it wouldn't have gone on this long. I would have guessed U.S Civil War though... despite being from Australia - that is, Australia, Earth, to clarify. HandsomeNick (TALK) (EDITS) 02:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- The question is whether we are trying to actually help people or are competing in some sort of game for attention, affirmation, cool-points, what have you. It's one thing to ask for a little clarification but it's another to be willfully dense to prove a point about someone else's allegedly narrow worldview. If you don't like a question, or a questioner, then ignore them, move on, let others deal with it — your contribution will not be missed (unless you are SteveBaker). And no, the fact that the OP got irritated at such pedantry and said silly things as a result does not validate the original jerk move in any way. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Jayron's got it right here, folks. (Mr.98, too.)
- To anyone who's insisting that it's vital to "educate" people on the proper way to ask questions: Yes, certainly, it would help if people asked better questions. But: breaking news: people as a whole are never ever going to learn this. (And then again, by about the same argument, it would help even more if they'd learn the answers to their questions such that they didn't have to ask them in the first place, and then where would we be? Where do you draw the line?)
- Anyway, as this thread shows, if you insist on "educating" people in this way, you are going to end up annoying them, precisely as the original poster was annoyed here. You are, pure and simple, disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. You should also revisit this thread up the page, and read the linked-to essay. (It's about a slightly different issue, but the sentiment is exactly the same.) —Steve Summit (talk) 04:33, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Given that OP's often don't return (as with this case), the most obvious approach to the question would have been to say, "If you mean the American Civil War, then the answer is..." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- ...which is what someone did, once someone with the answer came forward. I still think it's fair that the posters were (sort of) trying to clarify the country - even though the U.S Civil War is the most likely answer, no-one should have to go through every Civil War in an attempt to guess the correct one HandsomeNick (TALK) (EDITS) 07:46, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Given that OP's often don't return (as with this case), the most obvious approach to the question would have been to say, "If you mean the American Civil War, then the answer is..." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
It's been a long time since I saw so much over-reaction going on. Alex Tiefling's initial response was:
- Do you mind telling us which nation's Civil War you have in mind, please? It makes a substantial difference to the answer to your question.
When Crisco said: American, most likely, Alex responded with:
- Probably, but I didn't want to make the crass assumption that people who say 'the Civil War' and expect us to just know which one they mean are all Americans. There was a Civil War over here in England (indeed, a complicated bunch of them) in which the use of cannon was crucial - to take just the other really well-known English-speaking example.
What we had so far was a perfectly fine and pleasant and courteous request for clarification, followed by a perfectly fine and pleasant and courteous explanation of why that clarification was sought. If you read the 2nd post again, you'll see that the reference to Americans was not to have a swing at Americans (as some here seem to have read it), but to explain that he was NOT, repeat NOT, assuming the OP is an American, which is exactly why he needed the civil war to be identified.
Then jpgordon comes along and accuses people of being "snippy and unhelpful". That was where this all started going bad. There was nothing either snippy or unhelpful about anything AlexTiefling wrote. But jpgordon's characterisation may have put ideas into the OP's mind, because now he's accusing Alex of being rude and treating him like a little child, neither of which was ever the case as far as I can tell. If anyone's been treated rudely here, it's Alex (although I'm not accusing the OP of that).
Now Shadowjams is calling what Alex wrote "a ridiculous overreaction" – to which I remind him of pots and kettles etc. If a simple request for more information so that we can provide the OP with an accurate answer is a "ridiculous overreaction", then bring on the crystal balls by the truckload.
Jayron is asking that such clarification be sought "in a non-confrontational way" – please identify anything that was remotely confrontational about it.
APL can't see any rudeness in Alex's posts. Neither can I: quite the reverse.
On the other hand, Handsome Nick says it was an attempt to talk down to the OP; but he seems to now be backtracking with "no-one should have to go through every Civil War in an attempt to guess the correct one".
Alex hasn't back to defend himself, and I wouldn't wonder he's left WP for good if that's the way he's treated for doing exactly the right thing. If what he wrote was so bad, can someone please suggest a form of words that would have been more suitable as a request for clarification? -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 08:44, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- sorry Jack, I should have made my sarcasm a bit clearer, I thought I was going too far at first and scaled it down. I just found it funny that the first reply was considered rude, when Alex asked "please?". HandsomeNick (TALK) (EDITS) 09:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Exactly. Sorry for misconstruing your post. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 09:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Far from leaving WP, I hadn't even seen this thread! My life is quite busy at the moment. Thanks for stepping up to my defence, Jack. You've understood my intention perfectly: I'm really surprised at the accusations of rudeness. I certainly can be rude, and I've apologised to a few people recently for being snippy in various discussions around WP. But this wasn't one of those times. I genuinely wanted to help the OP clarify the question, because I have a pile of dead-tree reference books at home which might have been useful in the English Civil War was being discussed. I grew up in an environment where 'the Civil War' always meant the English Civil War, just as 'the Last War' always meant WW2, even after the Falklands War had come and gone. I really wouldn't want to assume that such uses, innocently meant, were the exclusive preserve of crudely-stereotyped lazy Americans. Whilst I certainly don't like American Exceptionalism, I also fiercely dislike the many unfounded accusations of exceptionalism that are hurled at American editors here. If anyone is able to explain how I've been rude in this case, please let me know; apologies, where due, are sure to be offered. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:05, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ironically, if the OP had initially posted with his IP instead of a one-shot user ID, the question need not have arisen. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:05, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- This doesn't really affect the general point on how we should response to such questions.
- But personally, I believed long before this blew up based both on the obvious similarities in names as well as the question type and wording that the editor involved is a sock of User:Wrk678, themselves almost definitely a sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kci357/Archive, User:Kj650 and the so many identities besides, both linked and unlinked. (Although the connection between Wrk678 and Kci357 was never firmly established mostly because I couldn't be bothered wasting my time finding the evidence. And I'm not sure whether anyone bothered to clearly establish the link between Kci357 and Kj650.) Their response (both wording and tone) to the which civil war issue only served to support my view (in the past they've usually dismissed reasonable criticism of their questions or assumptions). Of course with only these few contributions, it's difficult to be that certain. And I am a bit surprised by the geolocation data although it is an IP for a wireless connection so it may not be particularly accurate.
- I actually opened a case on this before it blew up but it was rejected based on insufficient evidence/fishing Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wrk678/Archive. I don't blame the CU/clerk, in truth I somewhat suspected a response like as that's a fact of the way we operate on wikipedia and one of the reasons I often don't waste my time with SPIs. (E.g. I noticed Wrk678 long ago but didn't push for them to be blocked until that nonsense about a rape victim, similar with other identities both theirs and previous problematic editors.)
- However if I am correct, it seems that after I pursued them more vigorously after the rape victim nonsense, our friend has now taken to changing identities even more frequently then in then in the past where they either waited to be blocked or to when they got a few warnings. Now using them for only one or two questions and also using apparently highly dynamic IPs. While the CU/clerk never responded to my question on a range block, if I'm correct this seems unlikely to be possible (and if I'm not then perhaps there's no need). Since they don't seem to be a troll per se, the only real option would be letting them be as we have in the past, and blocking when they do go overboard again whether it's to do with celebrity nipples, immunity to choking, how to speed in suburban streets or whatever. At the very least, since they came back as Wrk678 they seem to have toned down their behaviour on the encylopaedia proper. And if I am correct about all the recent identities, they are possibly defaulting to RDS slightly less.
- Nil Einne (talk) 07:06, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ironically, if the OP had initially posted with his IP instead of a one-shot user ID, the question need not have arisen. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:05, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Has anyone come up with a rate of fire btw? Ssscienccce (talk) 15:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- As the OP mentions above, a figure of 12 rounds/hour, with a suitable source, was eventually provided. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:21, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Article submit
I am trying to find any articles for the submission for Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Bone Eater if you can find any sources for the book I would hope there would be somthing usful.--Oh Goes the Waterholes (talk) 16:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Medical advice question removed at Science Desk
I removed a medical-advice question and its answers, (diff). Nimur (talk) 22:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- Good removal. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
question about sickness removed at Science Desk
I agree with the above, but on the other hand, this edit was not justified. The edit contradicts the guideline at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines in two ways.
First, it uses a template that marks the collapse with "close request for medical advice". Not only is the section clearly not a request for medical advice, but the answer by StuRat says "I believe Jayron incorrectly removed this Q as a request for medical advice". This difference of opinion should have been discussed here. See WP:BRD.
Second, the edit summary ("The default position is not to give free medical advice, nor comments without links or references") misstates Wikipedia policy. W:RD/G says "General medical questions ('What treatments are used for diabetes?') are fine." and "it is still helpful to contribute from your areas of personal expertise." There isn't a "no comments without links or references" rule in the guideline, and the requirement in the edit summary is higher than the standard for Wikipedia articles (WP:V), which is that all material must be verifiable, and all material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Nothing that StuRat wrote is likely to be challenged, and if someone does challenge statements such as "Genetic variation causes individuals, even in a family, to have different immunity to each disease" or "young children tend to be far sloppier with hygiene" we can easily give citations supporting them.
I am all for following the guideline about medical and legal advice, and I am fine with erring on the side of caution in marginal cases, but I am against inventing new requirements that are not found in our guidelines and shutting down conversation based upon these made-up requirements. As W:RD/G says, "Many people have their first Wikipedia experience asking a question at the Reference Desk and it is a good opportunity for us to build goodwill with the readers which in turn can help the encyclopedia." It does nothing to build goodwill when we don't follow our own guidelines or when we label something as a request for medical advice when it clearly is not. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:58, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- The OP is asking for an explanation of his sickness--as far as we know it might be cancer, worms in his drinking water, or mental illness, none of which can or should we be commenting on, and the "response" is StuRat's usual off the cuff baseless opinionating on ever single question regardless of expertise or links and refs. There's no question here we can answer and no answer has been given. I am closing it again. μηδείς (talk) 18:46, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- First, did you even bother to read the question? He asked why he doesn't get sick. If he was "asking for an explanation of his sickness" (which he isn't), I would have agreed with your actions, and no doubt so would StuRat.
- Second, you are attempting to enforce your view on this by edit warring rather than discussing and seeking consensus. It's WP:BRD, nor WP:BRRD. -- you are at 2RR now and if I decided to edit war myself (which I refuse to do), I have no doubt that you would instantly revert, putting you at 3RR. Please self-revert your last edit and seek consensus through talk page discussion.
- Third, you did not respond to my comments about you making up new rules that are at odds with the actual guidelines. Are you willing to make a commitment to stop doing that? If, instead, you believe that your "no comments without links or references" rule is in the guidelines, please explain the basis of this belief. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- The OP in that case asked why his family gets sicker more often than he does. No one here is qualified to answer that question. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- No one here is qualified to edit Health#Self-care_strategies either, but nonetheless it remain editable. The issue is not whether anyone here is qualified to answer this question. We can find sources that cover the legitimate scientific question of how much effect genetics vs. environment have on general health. The issue is whether telling the OP about some of the known contributors to poor health or good health which are behavioral instead of genetic is giving him medical advice. Why is it that I can advocate things such as washing hands with soap and brushing and flossing teeth if I am editing Health#Self-care_strategies, but not if I am answering a question that isn't even close to being a request for medical advice? --Guy Macon (talk) 22:18, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- My opinion on this matter was requested. I have given this deep thought. My official position on this matter is this: Meh. I hope that provides the additional input everyone needs to resolve this issue. --Jayron32 00:00, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- It wasn't an actionable request for medical advice, that's for sure.
- StuRat gave a fine answer, which remains despite the unnecessary hatting.
- (To avoid confusion, I'm splitting this discussion off from the thread above it.) —Steve Summit (talk) 00:19, 1 February 2013 (UTC)