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::::::"Active" circulation wasn't something Jimbo made a big deal of. The point is that non-free can sometimes be used to give an appropriately rounded and full presentation of a topic, even without comment on the individual items, if doing so adds appropriately to reader understanding of the topic as a whole. |
::::::"Active" circulation wasn't something Jimbo made a big deal of. The point is that non-free can sometimes be used to give an appropriately rounded and full presentation of a topic, even without comment on the individual items, if doing so adds appropriately to reader understanding of the topic as a whole. |
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::::::As for what the "topic" of this article is, that's discussed in detail elsewhere on this page. But honestly, this article isn't about history, it's about stamps. If it extends anything, it's an article that adds one more to our articles on Stamps of the United States. [[User:Jheald|Jheald]] ([[User talk:Jheald|talk]]) 15:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC) |
::::::As for what the "topic" of this article is, that's discussed in detail elsewhere on this page. But honestly, this article isn't about history, it's about stamps. If it extends anything, it's an article that adds one more to our articles on Stamps of the United States. [[User:Jheald|Jheald]] ([[User talk:Jheald|talk]]) 15:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC) |
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:::::::Arguably, the way TVH has broken down this article is the history stand point first, the fact there were stamps, second. Also, I would not be surprised that the topic "Commemorative stamps of the history of Colonial US" (as a whole) could be GNG-notable topic (as it clearly was a popular theme in the mid-late 20th Century with various 200th anniversaries coming around), and breaking out how the individual histories of each states were represented on stamps also makes sense, even if those aren't notable - this example is a crossover article of both topics. This article is not going anywhere soon, but what purpose it is serving does play to the importance of the images we add in additional to numerous other factors. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 16:13, 2 May 2014 (UTC) |
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===Survey=== |
===Survey=== |
Revision as of 16:14, 2 May 2014
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RfC: Non-free images in collaborations with other organizations
I propose we add the follow text to the exemptions section: "Non-free images may be used on non-article space page when there is explicit permission via OTRS from the copyright holder allowing this use and the copyright holder is involved in a collaborative effort with Wikipedians to improve Wikipedia"
Support
- As proposer Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support. As it will be on a non-article page, it is does not matter that it is not free. Use of such logos would be subject to consensus of the project members. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 13:40, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Pbsouthwood:I don't understand how "As it will be on a non-article page" leads to "it is does not matter that it is not free." Please clarify. Specifically, please clarify how it "does not matter" with respect to existing WMF (i.e. global) policies and with respect to existing local ("English Wikipedia") policies. Thanks. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 20:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The project page is not for re-use by third parties. Policies can be changed and should be changed when they are unnecessarily obstructive. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:46, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support If Wikipedia is to grow there needs to be collaboration with other organizations. Not allowing use of logo on collaboration pages will deter cooperation and instill a belief that Wikipedia is governed ineffectively by close-minded individuals who do want to see truly free knowledge prosper. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 20:14, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support Right now on Meta-Wiki there is a discussion about disclosing conflict of interest. Many community members take the position that Wikipedians with a strong bias to promote an external organization should be open about their relationships with those organizations. The history of marketing has always promoted the idea of a brand and this proposal to use non-free content is an attempt to create an environment in which brands affiliations may be communicated more clearly. This proposal is following an attempt to be transparent about the relationship between Translators Without Borders and m:Wiki Project Med, whose relationship includes the exchange of volunteer time for receipts recording in-kind donation. The Wikimedia Foundation has a practice of doing this also, for example by claiming donation value for in-kind donations, and indeed all organizations with donations in their finances do this. The Wikipedia community is harmed when individuals, communities, and projects are unable to clearly disclose their ties to external organizations by doing what would be done in any media channel other than Wikipedia, which would be to show the brand logo. I support this proposal because it increases transparency and makes records of relationships, which I think increases the Wikimedia movement's integrity. That said, I agree with the opposition that Wikipedia community ideals are greatly disrupted by increased use of non-free content in new ways. Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:07, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- There is no reason that the transparency of the collaboration can be done without non-free imagery. A colored box at the top of the page, the use of their wordmark (sans graphic logo), etc. all serve the same purpose. Yes, eyes are drawn to a graphic logo, but if there's a question of transparency issues, a person is most likely going to be reading all the text at play to learn that, and not just look for a logo. --MASEM (t) 22:48, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support: Masem is good faith and excellent value, but so is Doc James excellenter and he gets my
votesupport. Haven't the faintest idea what the issues here actually are mind, but that'sdemocracyWikipedia for you. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 23:48, 9 March 2014 (UTC)- This doesn't help at all. RFCs are !votes, and there's serious policy issues here, so just supporting the "excellenter" suggestion gives nothing to the discussion. --MASEM (t) 00:25, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support
A voteisa votesupport isa votesupport, Masem. I did read through it as much as I could understand. Are you saying that you take Stefan's position (so far as I can make it out) that only people with a Master's in Copyright are worth treating with? I do know Doc James' work on Wikipedia. I admire it very much (and on a personal note it was very helpful to me when I seriously ill a few years ago). It was your edit here, and Doc's response, that prompted me to to vote and I did vote with conviction. Did you really imagine I was being non-constructive? Not at all. I just happen to be here (as you know through my Reeva Steenkamp upload) and I just threw in my lot with Doc. Lighten up. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 00:51, 10 March 2014 (UTC)- RFCs like all discussions are policy based, not "number of votes" based. The fact you say you "haven't the faintest idea what the issues are" probably means you should not participate until you know what those issues are, so that you can supply a policy-based reason. This is not a trivial matter as we are talking a core principle of a free-content work. --MASEM (t) 01:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Voting is most definitely not irrelevant. Who is to determine what is the best argument? You? Disregarding the number of votes is purely anarchistic and allows the editor who shouts the most to win. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 10:26, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Anarchism isn't the only alternative to simple vote-counting democracy. You may wish to read Wikipedia:Consensus, which explains how decisions are made on Wikipedia. J Milburn (talk) 12:02, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy reminds us that we shouldn't follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policy without consideration for the principles of policies. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 13:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting that because Wikipedia's not a bureaucracy we should ignore our policy of consensus and just vote count (which sounds considerably more bureaucratic...), or are you you just linking to policies in the hope that people will agree with you? J Milburn (talk) 22:06, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'll pass on vote-counting. That strikes me as a complex issue I partially address another remark below. I struck 'vote' in favour of 'support'. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy expressly confirms our policy of consensus. So that's a 'no' first part. Am I just linking to policies in the hope that people will agree with me? Well that's a hard one. What do you think? When other people link to policies would you say, all things considered, that their purpose in general is to get people to agree with them? Well, I'm sure I don't know. So that would be a 'not sure' second part. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 00:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Now you're just being obfuscatory. From that response, it's clear that your comment dated 13:03, 10 March was not in any way a response to my preceding comment, which sounds an awful lot like deliberate disruption, but it's also clear that you now appreciate the problems with your comments dated 10:26, 10 March. Perhaps you'd like to strike the offending comments? J Milburn (talk) 08:53, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- I've reindented. I wasn't being disruptive, mischievous perhaps (what would you say?) If I were to rewrite I would note that Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy reminds us that Wikipedia is neither an anarchy, democracy nor a bureaucracy (properly seen as a means of curtailing upriver power blocks not that I'm in any way suggesting this is what we are confronting here lorry no horror of horrors oh the horror). I did feel I understood the issues well enough to essay a modest note of qualified support, by way of being a bit of a philosopher myself see. I've read Best and Kellner and everything: I'm always struck by how far-seeing that bit at p. 302 in Critical Interrogations really is, starting:
... the present moment contains both utopian and dystopian aspects which open towards conflicting futures. The information explosion could work either to multiply and pluralize information, or to cancel all meaning in a meaningless noise; it could enhance literary skills or deaden them;it could decentralize information so that all people have easy and equal access, or it could further the control and domination of ruling elites who monopolize information and computer technologies ...
— Steven Best and Douglas Kellner, Postmodern Theory: Critical Interrogation (Macmillan 1991) p. 302
- I've reindented. I wasn't being disruptive, mischievous perhaps (what would you say?) If I were to rewrite I would note that Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy reminds us that Wikipedia is neither an anarchy, democracy nor a bureaucracy (properly seen as a means of curtailing upriver power blocks not that I'm in any way suggesting this is what we are confronting here lorry no horror of horrors oh the horror). I did feel I understood the issues well enough to essay a modest note of qualified support, by way of being a bit of a philosopher myself see. I've read Best and Kellner and everything: I'm always struck by how far-seeing that bit at p. 302 in Critical Interrogations really is, starting:
- Now you're just being obfuscatory. From that response, it's clear that your comment dated 13:03, 10 March was not in any way a response to my preceding comment, which sounds an awful lot like deliberate disruption, but it's also clear that you now appreciate the problems with your comments dated 10:26, 10 March. Perhaps you'd like to strike the offending comments? J Milburn (talk) 08:53, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'll pass on vote-counting. That strikes me as a complex issue I partially address another remark below. I struck 'vote' in favour of 'support'. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy expressly confirms our policy of consensus. So that's a 'no' first part. Am I just linking to policies in the hope that people will agree with me? Well that's a hard one. What do you think? When other people link to policies would you say, all things considered, that their purpose in general is to get people to agree with them? Well, I'm sure I don't know. So that would be a 'not sure' second part. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 00:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting that because Wikipedia's not a bureaucracy we should ignore our policy of consensus and just vote count (which sounds considerably more bureaucratic...), or are you you just linking to policies in the hope that people will agree with you? J Milburn (talk) 22:06, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Voting is most definitely not irrelevant. Who is to determine what is the best argument? You? Disregarding the number of votes is purely anarchistic and allows the editor who shouts the most to win. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 10:26, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- RFCs like all discussions are policy based, not "number of votes" based. The fact you say you "haven't the faintest idea what the issues are" probably means you should not participate until you know what those issues are, so that you can supply a policy-based reason. This is not a trivial matter as we are talking a core principle of a free-content work. --MASEM (t) 01:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support
- This doesn't help at all. RFCs are !votes, and there's serious policy issues here, so just supporting the "excellenter" suggestion gives nothing to the discussion. --MASEM (t) 00:25, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support. Masem is correct that this is currently against our NFCC policy, but that is irrelevant given that the express purpose of this RfC is to change that policy. I would prefer the wording to be slightly tighter to explicitly restrict the use to project pages about the collaboration and encourage minimal usage on those pages, however this is not sufficient for me to object given that this is implicit anyway. It is not reasonable to expect an organisation to license their logo under a free license (which applies to all uses and reuses) because of one collaboration with Wikipedia. In many organisations many more people will have the right to license use of their logo than will have the right to re-license it - for example my parents run a small business, I would be amazed if either of them knew for certain whether the copyright in the logo resides with the company or with the graphic designer who they employed to create it (and it's definitely copyright eligible). We should encourage the use of a free license but should not require it. As for why we should take this line, the simple answer is the professionalism of consistency between online and off-line branding (where neither party would have any legal or policy issues in using both logos AIUI) and between online branding produced by Wiki(p|m)edia and that produced by the partner organisation. This change in policy would have zero impact on article-space uses of non-free media (excluding in the unlikely event that the collaboration itself became notable, when any non-free branding used would be considered for inclusion (although not necessarily actually used)). The change in policy would also have zero effect elsewhere in project space because it explicitly applies only to collaborations. Yes, it might lead to more people asking for other exceptions, but without support from an RfC (which will not happen for trivial things) those requests will not be successful. Thryduulf (talk) 09:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Happy to see the wording tightened. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:21, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- The issue is that people will see the logos used, without knowing there's an exception, and proceed to use non-free logos all over project pages, creating a worse problem. Further, we would never use logos like this in article space - that is, if we're on organization A's page, and there's a section about how they collaborate with organization B, we would never allow for organization B's logo on A's page if B's logo was non-free. The same must be maintained in user-space (even if we had exceptions for user-space non-free). --MASEM (t) 18:24, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Your comments about not knowing about an exception are not really relevant - a NFUR would still be required and that would clearly link to this exception. It may be possible to link to it from the image caption or something. Any other uses would be removed as soon as they are found - under all laws I am aware of, what matters is action taken when $responsible_person becomes aware of an infringement more than that the infringement happened.
- Regarding article space, content about a notable collaboration/joint venture between two notable organisations would not be appropriate on the article about Organisation A or Organisation B beyond a small note. A standalone article about the collaboration could (but not necessarily would) legitimately use the branding of that collaboration, which might contains both organisations' logos (as is the case for the (non-notable) Hochtief/Murphy Group/Murphy joint venture involved in building Crossrail). This is getting away from the main point though. Thryduulf (talk) 22:37, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Editors copy by example, not by understanding the basics, when it comes to NFC. They will upload the image, copy the rational from an image they think is fine, and say all done without really understanding NFC (people do this with mainspace images all the time too). Yes, improper use of NFC on non-main space pages is easy to detect via bot but still is a problem to deal with.
- If there was a common logo that including both organizations' logo, and that met inclusion tests, yes, we'd include it, but that's a large barrier. The point is that if we're not going to allow using B's logo's on A's page in article space, why would we even allow it in non-article space? --MASEM (t)
- Because this isn't A's page or B's page, but the collaboration's page. Thryduulf (talk) 01:24, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- No, the idea was to use it on the WikiProject's page to show the collaboration. Even considering that, if there was a separate collaboration page, is the collaboration notable to required an identification image that we would normal require? This is the problem with this exception request - it's a situation we'd not allow in mainspace to begin with, and the use is strictly promotional and not educational. --MASEM (t) 14:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- The use of the image would be informational as well as promotional, and would be supporting an educational project. That we would not use an image in this way in mainspace is not a reason for us not to allow it in project space. We do not blindly apply mainspace rules to project space for free media use so we should not blindly apply mainspace rules for non-free media. There would obviously need to be rules, and nobody is suggesting otherwise, and those rules would be strict and probably would incorporate some of the same rules as mainspace (usable only on explicitly defined pages for explicitly defined reasons for example), but they would not be identical. Your other arguments may not be convincing to me, but unlike this one they are relevant. Thryduulf (talk) 09:09, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
- No, the idea was to use it on the WikiProject's page to show the collaboration. Even considering that, if there was a separate collaboration page, is the collaboration notable to required an identification image that we would normal require? This is the problem with this exception request - it's a situation we'd not allow in mainspace to begin with, and the use is strictly promotional and not educational. --MASEM (t) 14:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Because this isn't A's page or B's page, but the collaboration's page. Thryduulf (talk) 01:24, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support we need to get real about non-encyclopaedia space. Requiring everyone to release their user page photo under CC-BY-SA is another silly example of the consequences of our current rules which make the place less friendly than it should be. All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 23:05, 31 March 2014 (UTC).
- Non-free image use that is not associated with encyclopedic content - with very limited exceptions - is counter to the Foundation's restrictions on where non-free can be used. Nonmainspace is the last place we want to allow non-free to maintain the free content goals under the Foundation's resolution. --MASEM (t) 05:00, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support -- Saffron Blaze (talk) 04:55, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support I created a large number of images myself in 2012 in collaboration with the International Olympic Committee and the International Paralympic Committee and it is galling in the extreme that they cannot be used on the Wikipedia because they are under a free license, which we do not allow on Wikipedia. I heartily support this proposal. Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:55, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7: "non-free license" I assume you mean? --MASEM (t) 06:01, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- Wikimedia concurred with IOC's policy that the images should be freely available under a free license, that is a CC (non commercial) license. This was considered fair and reasonable, but Fair Use is meaningless for such images (as they are already free). Hawkeye7 (talk) 06:21, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- CC-*-NC licenses are not considered "free" in terms of non-free image use (the NC part restricts downstream use). They would fall under non-free content policy. That's why we no longer consider the idea of "fair use" in considering these images, we're looking for what are "free licensed" as defined by the Foundation. --MASEM (t) 13:46, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- Wikimedia concurred with IOC's policy that the images should be freely available under a free license, that is a CC (non commercial) license. This was considered fair and reasonable, but Fair Use is meaningless for such images (as they are already free). Hawkeye7 (talk) 06:21, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7: "non-free license" I assume you mean? --MASEM (t) 06:01, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support for the benefits and protection it provides to users of those pages. Having official branding helps with disclosure of conflicts of interest, reinforces the message that collaboration projects are backed up by their organizations, and helps detecting forgeries - initiatives that may present themselves as involved with an organization, but that don't have formal support behind them.
- I agree with Peter (Southwood) that, as project pages are intended for coordination and not reuse, and as they're outside the scope of the encyclopedia, it doesn't hurt much that we allow this non-free usage and the benefit outgrows the potential limitations. And I agree with John Vandenberg below that it would be a good idea to host the non-free images themselves at an external repository, if possible. Diego (talk) 11:54, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- We don't need an image to show disclosure of a collaboration, text perfectly serves this duty. We could create a message box to make sure that's highlight at the top of a wikiproject page but no logos are need for this purpose. Using non-free outside of mainspace does hurt the project, since its not tied with encyclopdic content, and only would be of editors, not readers (who rarely venture into project space). And the Foundation's resolution on non-free material will never allow for a non-free repository due to the fact that none of that none of that would be used in immediate conjunction with encyclopedic content. --MASEM (t) 13:46, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- I don't understand your point here. The use of logos on the Project pages does no more than disclose the origin of the image. This is fully compatible with the CC license, so it is still a free repository, and we already do it in a number of cases. Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:50, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Not all CC licenses are "free" under the Foundation'a definition, specifically the one given here [1]. CC-*-NC, for example, are not compatible with the free content definition, even if for most other works it is a lot free-er than a normal non-CC copyright. Since the Foundation's goal is to promote the generation of free content, they will not be creating an repository to store works that aren't free. (This is why the inclusion metrics at Commons is very strict). --MASEM (t) 06:08, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- I understand that not all free licenses are permitted. The most common one that we have permitted in the past is CC-by-SA. And that requires "attribution — You must give appropriate credit". The CC people say that this means "in the manner specified bu the author". Which may include the use of a logo. Are we now saying that CC-by-SA is no longer permitted? Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:22, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- CC-BY-SA is "free", CC-BY is "free" - both of these allow redistribution and reuse without restriction (-SA only asks derivative works to be under the same license, not an issue for how the Foundation defines "free"). CC licenses with NC (non-commercial use) and ND (no derivatives) cannot be "free" as they put limits on who and what can be done with the work. (Please note that in CC terms "BY" only requires we identify the author and other details, there's no requirement to attribute in the manner the author specifies). --MASEM (t) 13:37, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- And now that I reread you are explaining a case where Company A offers its material under CC-BY-SA, and their terms for attribution require us to show their non-free logo as part of that atttribution. And this is not true. CC-*-SA licenses require the reuser to (per [2] section 4c) provide the name, title, URI, and in case of modified works, what has been changed, "reasonable to the medium or means You are utilizing". In other words, there is no requirement under CC-BY-SA that our attribution must include their logos as well simply identify the name of the company, and their claim that the logo must be included is not a requirement CC-BY-SA licenses require. --MASEM (t) 13:50, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- That wasn't our interpretation of the 4(c) requirement to "keep intact all copyright notices for the Work". Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:26, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- CC 4.0 is a tragedy. Issue of CMI not addressed, additional rights grabs, and the whole issue surrounding the license being for the work of copyright. Saffron Blaze (talk) 03:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Hawkeye: I'd be curious if you can point to that discussion. My reading of CC 2.0 and 3.0 (where it talks about keeping intact) also includes considerations "appropriate for the medium", and the company cannot force you to do something that would violate the license - that is, they cannot make you include their non-free logo for attribution - we would use their ASCII-based name and we can't run around distributing their non-free logo as part of a CC license. Both versions imply "reasonable" means of keeping copyright notices intact, not exact duplication. CC 4.0 doesn't contain that language.
- Saffron: CC-BY-*-4.0 at least in terms of attribution is not bad, but I can see other parts that are a problem. But this is why we still allow CC 2.0 and 3.0 licenses and consider the CC-BY and CC-BY-SA ones as "free". --MASEM (t) 03:48, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- MASEM, you just proved my point by conflating attribution with CMI. Saffron Blaze (talk) 17:30, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- CC-BY 3.0 [3] requires the CMI (as defined here [4]) to be kept with the work. But this is not an issue within this discussion. CMI does not require the logo of a company to be carried (the law allows links to serve the same) --MASEM (t) 17:46, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Copyright Management Information is not Attribution, even if they are served by the same notices. You linked to a license that never uses the term CMI then link me to a definition of CMI that never uses the term attribution. Well played. Saffron Blaze (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Well, until we're told by the Foundation that the CC licenses can't work as free, we'll assume they are. That doesn't affect this larger issue. --MASEM (t) 21:09, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- How is that even relevant? It appears you lost the argument so stated some kind of self evident non sequitur. Saffron Blaze (talk) 23:56, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- My point is: how does the issue that CC licenses don't address the issue of CMI affect the need to include organizational logos on Wikiproject pages to show collaboration? The CC/CMI issue is an issue that should be addressed probably at Commons or even the meta site if there is concern CC isn't enough, but it has no immediate influence on adjusting our non-free content policy. --MASEM (t) 23:58, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed, and that tangent would not have occurred if you hadn't weighed in with an incorrect analysis of CMI/Attribution. Now you can get back to your concern over NFC. Saffron Blaze (talk) 00:19, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- My point is: how does the issue that CC licenses don't address the issue of CMI affect the need to include organizational logos on Wikiproject pages to show collaboration? The CC/CMI issue is an issue that should be addressed probably at Commons or even the meta site if there is concern CC isn't enough, but it has no immediate influence on adjusting our non-free content policy. --MASEM (t) 23:58, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- How is that even relevant? It appears you lost the argument so stated some kind of self evident non sequitur. Saffron Blaze (talk) 23:56, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Well, until we're told by the Foundation that the CC licenses can't work as free, we'll assume they are. That doesn't affect this larger issue. --MASEM (t) 21:09, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Copyright Management Information is not Attribution, even if they are served by the same notices. You linked to a license that never uses the term CMI then link me to a definition of CMI that never uses the term attribution. Well played. Saffron Blaze (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- CC-BY 3.0 [3] requires the CMI (as defined here [4]) to be kept with the work. But this is not an issue within this discussion. CMI does not require the logo of a company to be carried (the law allows links to serve the same) --MASEM (t) 17:46, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- MASEM, you just proved my point by conflating attribution with CMI. Saffron Blaze (talk) 17:30, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- CC 4.0 is a tragedy. Issue of CMI not addressed, additional rights grabs, and the whole issue surrounding the license being for the work of copyright. Saffron Blaze (talk) 03:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- That wasn't our interpretation of the 4(c) requirement to "keep intact all copyright notices for the Work". Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:26, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- I understand that not all free licenses are permitted. The most common one that we have permitted in the past is CC-by-SA. And that requires "attribution — You must give appropriate credit". The CC people say that this means "in the manner specified bu the author". Which may include the use of a logo. Are we now saying that CC-by-SA is no longer permitted? Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:22, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- Not all CC licenses are "free" under the Foundation'a definition, specifically the one given here [1]. CC-*-NC, for example, are not compatible with the free content definition, even if for most other works it is a lot free-er than a normal non-CC copyright. Since the Foundation's goal is to promote the generation of free content, they will not be creating an repository to store works that aren't free. (This is why the inclusion metrics at Commons is very strict). --MASEM (t) 06:08, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- I don't understand your point here. The use of logos on the Project pages does no more than disclose the origin of the image. This is fully compatible with the CC license, so it is still a free repository, and we already do it in a number of cases. Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:50, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- We don't need an image to show disclosure of a collaboration, text perfectly serves this duty. We could create a message box to make sure that's highlight at the top of a wikiproject page but no logos are need for this purpose. Using non-free outside of mainspace does hurt the project, since its not tied with encyclopdic content, and only would be of editors, not readers (who rarely venture into project space). And the Foundation's resolution on non-free material will never allow for a non-free repository due to the fact that none of that none of that would be used in immediate conjunction with encyclopedic content. --MASEM (t) 13:46, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support To the NFCC enforcers; the cases covered by this exception are exceedingly small. You have to oppose this when it supports collaboration? Really? "Why hello nice collaborator. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to learn our obtuse rules in using the copyrighted works you're saying we can use before we can work with you". Way to treat the world there, NFCC enforcers <cough>. Do you have ANY idea how idiotic you make Wikipedia out to the world? I would also support trimming this to be more broad based. Trim to "Non-free images may be used" and I would support it as well. We already do. This project will soon have more than half a million non-free images on it. The charade of being a "free encyclopedia" needs to end. For years ad nauseum it has created an insane amount of arguments, including this very one here. The madness needs to end and acceptance of reality must happen. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:48, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose
- Fails to meet any of our limited exceptions for non-free on non-article pages. Association can be described by text, period. --MASEM (t) 05:14, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Masem, is your position really, "Oppose changing the policy because changing this policy would require a change to this policy"? That's what you just said: we cannot add this exception to the policy because this exception does not already exist in the policy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:51, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support the idea of removing the near-blanket prohibition in cases where OTRS permission exists but Oppose this proposal because it needs to be tightened up to prohibit the use of logos in situations where the use is for or might be perceived as being for "endorsement" or "branding" purposes. As a side-note, this is the very use that the proponent of this RFC is seeking. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 05:27, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I do agree that if a organization gets ORTS for us to use their logo on their mainspace article page, that's fine. Technically we don't need that but this would be a "feel good" step - eg we don't need the AP's permission to use File:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg on the article about the photo, but its good we have that. --MASEM (t) 05:35, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Masem: Actually, I wasn't thinking of that because, as you say, that's already mostly covered under WP:FAIRUSE. I can see your point though, OTRS would be helpful for using something like a high-resolution non-free image of copyrighted artwork on the article about the artwork. However, the more I think about it, the use cases I would support are the very use cases where OTRS would likely be unavailable: The use of copyrighted images where the original copyright owner is defunct and the image, while still copyrighted, has no practical commercial value and where the copyright owner may be hard to track down. WikiProjects which deal with defunct companies or which deal with decades-old book/music/other-creative-arts genres come to mind. If Apple Computer had bit the dust several years ago and its trademarks and branding abandoned, I would have no problem with a WikiProject using the old logos and branding-marks IF the current copyright holder of the old logos gave copyright clearance for related WikiProjects to use the logos. I would NOT support any such use if it could be reasonably considered as "advertising" or "endorsement" of any existing entity that had a copyright claim on the image. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 21:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- See, that's the problem - non-free policy is not there directly to cover the Foundation's legal side in regards to copyright issues and the Foundation. Non-free's requirements, as a side effect, would make the Foundation's position in a fair use defense very solid. Instead, the idea behind non-free is to promote free content and in essence discourage non-free content that would otherwise be fair use, and that means when there are cases that where the non-free could be a visually appealing thing but otherwise does not directly serve the educational goals. Branding logos on WProject is exactly that type of case. --MASEM (t) 21:54, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Masem: Actually, I wasn't thinking of that because, as you say, that's already mostly covered under WP:FAIRUSE. I can see your point though, OTRS would be helpful for using something like a high-resolution non-free image of copyrighted artwork on the article about the artwork. However, the more I think about it, the use cases I would support are the very use cases where OTRS would likely be unavailable: The use of copyrighted images where the original copyright owner is defunct and the image, while still copyrighted, has no practical commercial value and where the copyright owner may be hard to track down. WikiProjects which deal with defunct companies or which deal with decades-old book/music/other-creative-arts genres come to mind. If Apple Computer had bit the dust several years ago and its trademarks and branding abandoned, I would have no problem with a WikiProject using the old logos and branding-marks IF the current copyright holder of the old logos gave copyright clearance for related WikiProjects to use the logos. I would NOT support any such use if it could be reasonably considered as "advertising" or "endorsement" of any existing entity that had a copyright claim on the image. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 21:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I do agree that if a organization gets ORTS for us to use their logo on their mainspace article page, that's fine. Technically we don't need that but this would be a "feel good" step - eg we don't need the AP's permission to use File:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg on the article about the photo, but its good we have that. --MASEM (t) 05:35, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- While the desire to bring about a solution to the concerns with your project is admirable, I think you missed the mark here, James. This is a global policy and a local RFC proposing change, in my opinion, is questionable at best. Note the message in the Resolution, "This policy is approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees to apply to all Wikimedia projects. It may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored by local policies." In all sincerity, this RFC appears to be an attempt to circumvent policy. My thoughts concur with Masem's as stated in the previous section. To paraphrase, logos = set decoration. They may "pretty up the place", but use in this regard is really a personal preference, rather than a necessary evil. Best regards, Cindy(talk) 06:09, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The licensing policy found here states [5] "Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) A project-specific policy, in accordance with United States law and the law of countries where the project content is predominantly accessed (if any), that recognizes the limitations of copyright law" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:15, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I misunderstood. Are you proposing a change to the licensing policy or the EDP? Cindy(talk) 07:42, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- I am proposing a change to Wikipedia:Non-free_content Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The change you are asking for requires us to change the licensing policy, which isn't going to happen. --MASEM (t) 22:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- No the licensing policy allows this sort of use. No change is required there. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:49, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that's my understanding too. The restriction to article-space comes from Non-free content criteria $9, which serves as the English Wikipedia's Exemption Doctrine Policy as envisaged by the Licensing Policy but is not itself the Licensing Policy nor does the Licensing Policy define the scope (except in general terms as minimal) and specifically not the location of exempted items . There's thus no need to change the licensing policy. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 19:52, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- No the licensing policy allows this sort of use. No change is required there. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:49, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- The change you are asking for requires us to change the licensing policy, which isn't going to happen. --MASEM (t) 22:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- I am proposing a change to Wikipedia:Non-free_content Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I misunderstood. Are you proposing a change to the licensing policy or the EDP? Cindy(talk) 07:42, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The licensing policy found here states [5] "Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) A project-specific policy, in accordance with United States law and the law of countries where the project content is predominantly accessed (if any), that recognizes the limitations of copyright law" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:15, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose, it is the partners choice to free anything they want and they know the rules. --ThurnerRupert (talk) 07:26, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose We are not here to plaster non-free logos everywhere. Wikipedia's m:Mission is to provide free content. Usage of non-free media in non-article space violates the core principals of both the mission and WP:NFCC. We limit the usage of non-free media to where absolutely necessary. Using non-free logos for a wikiproject goes against the very core of wikipedia and wikimedia is trying to do. We can provide a link to the article on the entity that we are partnering with if people do not recognize the name. We dont need to pollute free content with non-free logos that are being used decoratively. Werieth (talk) 13:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- So are you proposing that we stop using the Wikipedia logo? You do realize that it is none free and owned by the WMF. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:58, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is owned by the WMF, and so their sites using their logo is in compliance with this. --MASEM (t) 00:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes but some people use the logo within other images and use it is non article space. Check out this barnstar for example. [6] If our mission was to only provide free content we would not allow this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:08, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is owned by the WMF, and so their sites using their logo is in compliance with this. --MASEM (t) 00:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- First of all Doc isn't proposing to plaster non-free logos everywhere and we do all get that about our mission to provide free content. But I don't see anything about "non-free media in non-article space" in our licensing policy which does commit (with the exception of Commons) to using an Exemption Doctrine Policy (i.e including the use of non-free content) "to illustrate historically significant events, to include identifying protected works such as logos, or to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works". So I really don't think your grand appeal to our mission has any real applicability here. I do think davidwr has a valid point about endorsement that ought to be addressed. Otherwise I'm content to carry on
lovingsupporting Doc, though of course I don't have a degree in Wikipedia Administration or anything. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 13:58, 10 March 2014 (UTC)- Please see WP:VEGAN to see the dangers of diluting the non-free policy and towards a free content mission. --MASEM (t) 14:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Camel's nose (aka Slippery slope, Thin edge of the wedge, We let him in and he brought his donkey too etc.). The ones on Swedish camels are huge incidentally, Masem, and they gawk bucket-loads of spit if you go anywhere near them. Seriously, stay away is my advice. Coat of Many Colours (talk)
- If our orders from the WMF are to minimize non-free, any attempt to wear away at that and allow non-free in cases previously not allowed is what is creating the slippery slope, that's the point of VEGAN. We've been there before, we know exactly what the average wikipedian - who probably has little idea about our non-free policy - wants to do when they see images being used in novel ways for their own articles. --MASEM (t) 14:42, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- First of all I sincerely respect what you do here, Masem. But with respect, Doc James isn't an "average" wikipedian. He's a pillar of WikiProject Medicine and I frankly doubt he harbours any insidious plan to undermine Wikipedia. If Doc were to call round his (I'm sure) numerous friends in Wikipedia, then I'm equally sure they would be out here in force to rubber-stamp his request and move on. But of course we know he can't do that and no doubt you would be quite right to say that kind of support, which doesn't really address the issues, shouldn't carry much weight. Equally this is a forum which plainly sees itself as a champion and bastion of free content (there are people posting here who oppose any non-free content whatsoever). That's not likely to be a very sympathetic forum for Doc James to bring his case, is it Masem? The least you could do is refrain from breaking out these pub bores on baked bean diets "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" arguments. Can you really not see that last remark of your was very patronising? We shouldn't personalise the issues, but that's exactly what you did with your "average". You profiled him and his motives. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 16:45, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are people that have been on WP for years and never had to do anything with non-free content and make the mistakes of thinking "non-free" is the same as "fair use", and thus while they may be the expert in other areas, are appearing as novices in others. And non-free is not supposed to give an inch - our mandate from the Foundation is to minimize it, and that's a thing a lot of people do not respect until they actually learn about non-free and its limitations. --MASEM (t) 17:50, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- So when I tried to convince the WMF that the Wikipedia logo should be under a CC BY SA license where was everyone who supports free logos? They support free logos from other organizations but not the WMF? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:48, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- It's not that we "support free logos" , but instead that we support using logos freely (but still under constraits to avoid outright spamming) when they are free and under very limited use when they are not. There's a difference here, and we have to recognize that some orgs will not release their logos under a free license. Why the WMF doesn't, I'm not sure outside that they may have to do it to protect WP's identity from the rest of the world that would like to profit off it. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yah, as dumb as that eh Masem? But not so dumb I fancy as to confuse the English Wikipedia's Exemption Doctrine Policy with the Wikimedia Foundation's Licensing Policy
which is pretty dumb, face it. Off here, Masem. I do hope Doc gets his exemption. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 20:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)- First, that's a personal attack. Second, I'm not confusing anthing. The Foundation's resolution does spell out that non-free is meant to be used under limited conditions and show the aim is tied for free content, and there free media can't do the same job (which include plain text). Yes, we could make an exception under our EDP/NFC but that would be very much against the intent of the Foundation's statement. --MASEM (t) 20:19, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Well I apologise if I offended you. I was just being playfully robust, as indeed equally it happens I was being playfully satirical (imagine!) when I first remarked that I didn't really understand the issues here. I mean it's not exactly quantum gravity, is it Masem? Not even time travel for that matter. It's about an experienced Wikipedian asking for a straightforward dispensation, and your response essentially is to treat it as an existential threat to the project from someone who just doesn't understand what is really at stake; not a personal attack indeed, but nevertheless a response that doesn't strike me necessarily as in wholly good faith either ... No. It doesn't need a change in the foundation's Licensing Policy, period. You were wrong to say that, end of. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 22:49, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- First, that's a personal attack. Second, I'm not confusing anthing. The Foundation's resolution does spell out that non-free is meant to be used under limited conditions and show the aim is tied for free content, and there free media can't do the same job (which include plain text). Yes, we could make an exception under our EDP/NFC but that would be very much against the intent of the Foundation's statement. --MASEM (t) 20:19, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- So when I tried to convince the WMF that the Wikipedia logo should be under a CC BY SA license where was everyone who supports free logos? They support free logos from other organizations but not the WMF? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:48, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are people that have been on WP for years and never had to do anything with non-free content and make the mistakes of thinking "non-free" is the same as "fair use", and thus while they may be the expert in other areas, are appearing as novices in others. And non-free is not supposed to give an inch - our mandate from the Foundation is to minimize it, and that's a thing a lot of people do not respect until they actually learn about non-free and its limitations. --MASEM (t) 17:50, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- First of all I sincerely respect what you do here, Masem. But with respect, Doc James isn't an "average" wikipedian. He's a pillar of WikiProject Medicine and I frankly doubt he harbours any insidious plan to undermine Wikipedia. If Doc were to call round his (I'm sure) numerous friends in Wikipedia, then I'm equally sure they would be out here in force to rubber-stamp his request and move on. But of course we know he can't do that and no doubt you would be quite right to say that kind of support, which doesn't really address the issues, shouldn't carry much weight. Equally this is a forum which plainly sees itself as a champion and bastion of free content (there are people posting here who oppose any non-free content whatsoever). That's not likely to be a very sympathetic forum for Doc James to bring his case, is it Masem? The least you could do is refrain from breaking out these pub bores on baked bean diets "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" arguments. Can you really not see that last remark of your was very patronising? We shouldn't personalise the issues, but that's exactly what you did with your "average". You profiled him and his motives. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 16:45, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- If our orders from the WMF are to minimize non-free, any attempt to wear away at that and allow non-free in cases previously not allowed is what is creating the slippery slope, that's the point of VEGAN. We've been there before, we know exactly what the average wikipedian - who probably has little idea about our non-free policy - wants to do when they see images being used in novel ways for their own articles. --MASEM (t) 14:42, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Camel's nose (aka Slippery slope, Thin edge of the wedge, We let him in and he brought his donkey too etc.). The ones on Swedish camels are huge incidentally, Masem, and they gawk bucket-loads of spit if you go anywhere near them. Seriously, stay away is my advice. Coat of Many Colours (talk)
- Please see WP:VEGAN to see the dangers of diluting the non-free policy and towards a free content mission. --MASEM (t) 14:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- So are you proposing that we stop using the Wikipedia logo? You do realize that it is none free and owned by the WMF. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:58, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. I really do not understand why this would be a good thing. If companies are really that keen to see their logo on Wikipedia project pages, they are welcome to release it under a free license. If a user or project wishes to display some kind of affiliation, they can do so with text. Also, is this really the kind of thing with which we want to be clogging up OTRS inboxes? J Milburn (talk) 00:12, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose any use of non-free content, especially outside mainspace. If people want us to use their content, they should use a free licence (and so should the WMF). —Kusma (t·c) 10:40, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Would you be willing to support that the WMF release all their logos under a CC BY SA license? I have and would again. If the WMF dose so I am happy to require all others to do so too. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:56, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Of course. Any content owned by WMF that is not released under a free license is an embarrassment. —Kusma (t·c) 21:59, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- My understanding, WMF Legal are going through the process of putting all their logos under a free license, slowed only by the fact they are also trying to obtain ownership of the rights of all of their logos.(some were created by volunteers, who may not be contactable - can someone from WMF correct me here or provide a better summary of the current status of this process). John Vandenberg (chat) 22:00, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- Of course. Any content owned by WMF that is not released under a free license is an embarrassment. —Kusma (t·c) 21:59, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Would you be willing to support that the WMF release all their logos under a CC BY SA license? I have and would again. If the WMF dose so I am happy to require all others to do so too. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:56, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose The express purpose of our licensing terms is to allow downstream republishers the right to publish Wikipedia content without having to "ask permission". Any copyright holder that only allows Wikipedia to use an image violates that core principle. That's why we don't want such restrictions. Either something is expressly licensed under a valid GFDL/CC license, or we don't want it. --Jayron32 16:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- How / why do we allow this than? [7] It of course is not under an open license as it contains the Wikipedia logo. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:55, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- I agree this is a problem. I have no idea where to find where the idea was made to allow it to be used as a cleanup logo to start. --MASEM (t) 19:24, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- I raised this question at commons [8]. If it turns out it is copyrighted, then we either need to remove them all or allow some exemption for WP logo allowances on non-article space (but that would have to be decided by separate consensus). --MASEM (t) 19:37, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes currently there is not an exception for this but it is a common practice. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:43, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Possibly because people think, like I did until a few days ago, that the WP logo was CC-BY, particularly since it is hosted on commons. --MASEM (t) 19:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Commons has confirmed these are copyrighted, though how we should handle it is up to us. --MASEM (t) 20:57, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- What did you mean by the "Foundation's resolution policy" in that post? What was confirmed was that how and where it is used in the English Wikipedia is a policy issue for the English Wikipedia community, suggesting does it not that the same holds for non-free logos in general regarding their location (i.e. in non-article space). Is that a fair appraisal in your judgement? Coat of Many Colours (talk) 23:10, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- I pointed out that it was the Foundation's resolution on non-free, and the clarification needed is that they are copyright, not free, and thus should be handled as non-free per each project's EDP; there is no special mediawiki exception for their use, save for the fact Commons hosts them. And yes, this means that any Wikipedia logo or derivatives used in non-article space fails our policy. --MASEM (t) 23:23, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- What did you mean by the "Foundation's resolution policy" in that post? What was confirmed was that how and where it is used in the English Wikipedia is a policy issue for the English Wikipedia community, suggesting does it not that the same holds for non-free logos in general regarding their location (i.e. in non-article space). Is that a fair appraisal in your judgement? Coat of Many Colours (talk) 23:10, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes currently there is not an exception for this but it is a common practice. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:43, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- How / why do we allow this than? [7] It of course is not under an open license as it contains the Wikipedia logo. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:55, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
If you can get the WMF to release their logos under a CC BY SA license I am sure I can convince TWB to do the same. All I am asking for is consistency as I do not wish to appear to be a hypocrite (requiring they release but not require the WMF to release.) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:32, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- The WMF legal is already in the process of doing that, see http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2014-March/070546.html Werieth (talk) 23:35, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Can you clarify on "express purpose" please, Jayron. The mission statement says "The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally.". Regarding the public domain, there are many images uploaded on the English Wikipedia which are in the public domain in the United States and which shouldn't be republished outside. The same applies to Fair Use images of contemporary works (of art for example) expressly envisaged in the Licensing Policy when an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) has been established. Those last two classes of images may not necessarily be republishable outside the United States, which doesn't seem to me to square with your "express purpose" assertion. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 23:45, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- A Hell of a lot more are free everywhere but the United States, which has the most restrictive copyright laws in the entire world. We've proposed a regime by which images are available everywhere else, and readers in the United States get a "Not available in the United states" images., Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:32, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
- "Wikipedia content" yes, Wikipedia content, but the back office stuff does not need to be CC-BY-SA, certainly user pages do not needto be, it is just simpler. All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 23:10, 31 March 2014 (UTC).
- Bitterly oppose for English Wikipedia. I could support a less hardline position on non-free content if there was a central repository of non-free with clear rules and good management of them. e.g. meta:NonFreeWiki. Or, there is an argument that meta should have a non-free content Exemption Doctrine Policy because that is where we publish reports about real world projects, including partnerships with organisations which arnt comfortable with releasing their logo under CC in order to partner with Wikimedia (or they dont have the rights to release their logo under CC). IMO any collaboration with an external organisation should be based on meta - if it is only hosted on English Wikipedia, and the external organisation wants their non-free logo on it, it is likely to be a badly designed collaboration. John Vandenberg (chat) 22:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Discussion
- Have posted a note at Wikimedia-l linking to this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- I posted at meta:Talk:Terms_of_use/Paid_contributions_amendment#Should_fair_use_policy_on_English_Wikipedia_be_modified_to_allow_copyrighted_logos_to_be_displayed_on_user_and_project_pages_to_communicate_affiliations.3F. Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:14, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Procedural Note given the impact of this RfC it should be spammed around to AN,ANI, and the VPs. Werieth (talk) 15:18, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- AN(I)s are not the place to put RFC notices particularly when this has nothing to do with admin powers. VPP (policy) would be reasonable as well as listing at CENT. --MASEM (t) 15:28, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- No spam I agree with Masem that there are more considerations than getting attention. If editors want notices of policies and guidelines RfCs, they can sign up for the messaging service. Unscintillating (talk) 15:35, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
AFC and Drafts
Propose we allow Non-free images in Draft:, in AFCs (whether in AFC space or tagged with AFC template) subject to the same fair use provisions as Articles. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 04:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC).
- This has been brought up before and rejected, simply because unless the draft is promptly moved from draft or AFC to mainspace, we can have non-free pictures lingering in non-article space for months and years, and that's not acceptable under policy. There's ways to placeholder images (free ones of similar size aspect ratios) if one is looking towards appearance. Once the article is moved to mainspace, it just takes a few moments to upload the non-free at that point assuming the non-free to be used has already been identified. --MASEM (t) 06:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is that this makes it difficult to take a page and move it into the draft space and work on it there, which is the whole purpose of the draft space. It seems that your reasoning here is "there is no reason for it, it's policy". Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- It really doesnt make it harder to work on, you can either use placeholder images or just have the images commented out. Unless a page is in the article namespace it shouldnt contain non-free media. Including such media just makes enforcing a complex policy even harder. Werieth (talk) 10:27, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- I can see special allowance for when a mainspace page is brought back to draft or userspace to be worked on as to keep the non-free that has been previously used in mainspace with the article, but that is going to have to be timely (something no more than two weeks or a month), again to avoid the issue of stale non-free use in non-mainspace. But adding new non-free should only be done once the article is back in mainspace. --MASEM (t) 13:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Masem. NFC isn't the only thing which a draft article shouldn't have- mainspace categories should be removed, too. I draft in my userspace a lot, and I simply add the categories and non-free content once I've moved it. I don't think it's too big an ask, and it prevents NFC lingering in drafts for excessive periods. I agree in principle that having NFC in a draft for a couple of days isn't too problematic, but when that stretches to weeks or months (especially if we're talking about a half- or fully-abandoned draft) there is clearly a problem. Much easier, from a practical perspective, not to allow NFC in drafts. J Milburn (talk) 10:11, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is that this makes it difficult to take a page and move it into the draft space and work on it there, which is the whole purpose of the draft space. It seems that your reasoning here is "there is no reason for it, it's policy". Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Suggestion for donated photos
Many photographers and retired photographers (and even Museums) are obviouslly willing to donate some of their old copyright pictures for uncommercial purposes, such as Wikipedia. I strongly suggest that we make uploading and "tags" simpler, in such cases. The current copyright holder only needs to add their e-mail (and webbsite if such exist). So we can check if picture actually is Ok. Maintained copyright with a possibility to donate the photo(s) for use at Wikipedia only. And their names must be credited, at picture and at image text. This would make many Wikipedia articles better. Boeing720 (talk) 02:59, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- For wikipedia use only is grounds for immediate deletion. Werieth (talk) 03:00, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- "For WP use only" would mean the image is non-free, so the use of the image first has to pass all 10 NFCC. If they don't pass (such as the idea of a repository where the images are just there waiting for editors to use them) this would fail NFCC#9, and we'd delete them. --MASEM (t) 03:03, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- "For uncommercial use" then. The photographers/museums mainly asks for a credit. It was also ment as a suggestion to change the current rules. And if a copyright holder agrees - why not take the benefit of it ? Boeing720 (talk) 03:10, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Noncommercial licensing really harms the re-usability of wikipedia. Werieth (talk) 03:12, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- I propose to make an 11th NFCC for donated photo's that, improves an article. I strongly reject the idea of "Noncommercial licensing really harms the re-usability of wikipedia", it's just a subjective thought, without any further explination. Boeing720 (talk) 03:17, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- And why having the other 10 NFCC's then, if it's harmful. I try to see the things from the perspective of Wikipedia readers. Boeing720 (talk) 03:20, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Actually its not subjective, nor a thought. Its a verifiable issue. One random example is having a town use their wikipedia article as tourism pamphlet, right now for the most part they can just print it out and use it. If we start having to deal with commercial and non-commercial licensing it causes further hurdles. In regards to NFCC we have those points because it is understood that some topics cannot be covered without the usage of copyrighted materials. However if we are getting material donated/released it should be done in accordance with wikipedia's mission which is to provide free content both in regards to access and licensing of the material. Werieth (talk) 03:23, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Boeing- adding to the NFCC will just making it harder to upload images, as all non-free content must meet all of the NFCC. What you seem to want is a rule meaning that a certain class of content can simply ignore the NFCC. While you're correct that a lot of copyright holders would be willing to release content under only non-commercial licenses, at the same time, many are happy with free licenses- licenses which allow unconstrained reuse and modification, even for commercial purposes. J Milburn (talk) 10:03, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- OK , I see. But what about introduce some kind third possibiliy then. I realize that if people that today make their uploads at Wikimedia Commons, might begin to misuse my suggestion, then nothing is gained from my proposal. But I'm mainly thinking of older photos. Analoge pictures with either negative or DIA-positive as original image. We do have a certain "picture-gap" regarding pictures related to articles from around 1945 to the third Millenium. Of cource external links may be a solution, but not a very good one. Example - a photographer has an interesting photo from some Super Bowl before 1990, and agrees to let us use that photo in the article of the winning team, or the super bowl itself. He just wan't it not to be used by a third part, and get this name attatched to the picture somehow. I fail to understand the harm that such photos would cause. I'm not saying "it must be in this way , or in that way". I mainly want to bring the matter to attention. As long as nothing becomes illegal, it must after all be up to us to decide the rules of what can and cannot be regarded as fair use. Boeing720 (talk) 13:09, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's mission is to provide free content. Just about every license requires attribution so thats a non-issue, If we are going to request a license release we should do so under the guidelines set forth by the founding principles. Jimbo Wales actually made a good point back in 2005-2006 when the issue of NC files was decided, usage of non-free media may be legal but it goes against what Wikipedia is trying to achieve. non-commercial release is the same as full copyright for how we treat said media. We have two classes of media free and non-free in the free class you can do just about as much with it as you want. With non-free media the usage is very restricted as it violates the mission of Wikipedia, and actually a lot of wikis dont use non-free media at all. (see dewiki for example). If we are going to ask for a release, instead of settling for a NC release we should explain why we want a full release, and clear up any misunderstandings there are with a free license. As few people actually understand the differences between them. Werieth (talk) 13:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- OK , I see. But what about introduce some kind third possibiliy then. I realize that if people that today make their uploads at Wikimedia Commons, might begin to misuse my suggestion, then nothing is gained from my proposal. But I'm mainly thinking of older photos. Analoge pictures with either negative or DIA-positive as original image. We do have a certain "picture-gap" regarding pictures related to articles from around 1945 to the third Millenium. Of cource external links may be a solution, but not a very good one. Example - a photographer has an interesting photo from some Super Bowl before 1990, and agrees to let us use that photo in the article of the winning team, or the super bowl itself. He just wan't it not to be used by a third part, and get this name attatched to the picture somehow. I fail to understand the harm that such photos would cause. I'm not saying "it must be in this way , or in that way". I mainly want to bring the matter to attention. As long as nothing becomes illegal, it must after all be up to us to decide the rules of what can and cannot be regarded as fair use. Boeing720 (talk) 13:09, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Boeing- adding to the NFCC will just making it harder to upload images, as all non-free content must meet all of the NFCC. What you seem to want is a rule meaning that a certain class of content can simply ignore the NFCC. While you're correct that a lot of copyright holders would be willing to release content under only non-commercial licenses, at the same time, many are happy with free licenses- licenses which allow unconstrained reuse and modification, even for commercial purposes. J Milburn (talk) 10:03, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Actually its not subjective, nor a thought. Its a verifiable issue. One random example is having a town use their wikipedia article as tourism pamphlet, right now for the most part they can just print it out and use it. If we start having to deal with commercial and non-commercial licensing it causes further hurdles. In regards to NFCC we have those points because it is understood that some topics cannot be covered without the usage of copyrighted materials. However if we are getting material donated/released it should be done in accordance with wikipedia's mission which is to provide free content both in regards to access and licensing of the material. Werieth (talk) 03:23, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- I can agree with You about the mission of Wikipedia. And I do not really want to change any guidelining principles, but as we so to speak "already cheets" with the NC-files , one could possibly regard non-free pictures as "premature use" (since eventually all copyrights expires someday), but whithin limits. Today most people uses digital cameras one way or another. But we cannot get back in time. And in my experience many archives [photographers, museum and others] seem willing to help. Their only demands are "mentioning in the picture text and that no commercial use". They are afraid that others may benefit economicaly from free pictures, I suppose. And I can understand that argument aswell. But if limiting such (copyright) photos to "analogue shots before 1995" , then in my humble opinion the the fundamential guidelines of Wikipedia will not be more damaged than what already is the case. I mean a Coca-Cola logo is OK, but a shot of any spectacular event during the 1950's to the 1980's isn't. That is a little bit difficult to comprahend. Although I in general agree with the fundametic guidelines. Thanks for Your explainings, by the way Boeing720 (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- If the event is significant enough that made a visual impact, we will usually allow it under NFCC - eg our article on Holocaust uses a good deal of non-free images due to the fact that was a very tragic event and shows excessive cruelty to humans. But we have very careful allowances for that, and hence why are do not allow things like non-free repositories or pre-loading for non-free. --MASEM (t) 17:29, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Noncommercial licensing really harms the re-usability of wikipedia. Werieth (talk) 03:12, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- "For uncommercial use" then. The photographers/museums mainly asks for a credit. It was also ment as a suggestion to change the current rules. And if a copyright holder agrees - why not take the benefit of it ? Boeing720 (talk) 03:10, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I think it's in the nature, any decision of what is and what isn't significant enough, always will become a subjective question. Now, please don't misinterprete me, the Holocaust was of course very different and indeed horrific. However a Spanyard may think a certain bull-fighting during the 1970's was very importaint, for instance. I'm only attempting to make a point. What is significant in one nation or even a city may be next to unknown elsewhere. Also within the English-speaking world. I didn't suggest any repository at Wikipedia. I am mainly thinking of a slightly more liberal interpretation of the NF's. Where Wikipedia-editors may ask an archive or other copyright owner of they may allow a certain (analogue based) photo(s) (from before 1995) to be shown in a relevant Wikipedia article. And if there is no objection from the copyright owner, it may be shown [rather than published] in that article - as fair use. I've become aware of that this is against the original fundamential guidelines of Wikipedia, but I still cannot helping thinking that Wikipedia actually would benefit from such a temporary compromise regarding these questions. ("Temporary" in a historical sence, as the copyright expires someday).
- By only allowing such pictures taken before 1995 and analogue based only (requiering a negative or DIA-positive), the uploads to Wikimedia Commons will not become affected. (If in doubts, the time border can be set to 1990 instead) For the purpose of filling the "picture gap" during primarily the second half of the last century. I fail to see the importance of helping possible third party commercial users, and putting that aspect ahead of English Wikipedia of becomming the best possible, the optimal encyklopedia ever. Perhaps my point of view in this matter may resemble visit a wasp's nest ? But it's not overwhelming changes I actually am asking for. But sooner like adding one new category to the ten existing NFCC's. Perhaps You all could think about this little proposal, which of course must be thoroughly thought through, if You may change Your minds. I wish You all very well, I thank You all for listening to my proposal, and also for all Your detailed answers and explinations. I appriciate Your opinions and share most of it, in general. Thanks again ! Boeing720 (talk) 21:37, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
RfC: Is stamp non-free content use explained by WP:NFCI Guideline #3?
Can stamp images be used “For identification of the stamp or currency, not the subjects depicted on it.” as explained at WP:NFCI Guideline #3? For example, File:Virginia ratification 1988 U.S. stamp.1.jpg, at History of Virginia on stamps, search on caption “Virginia ratification 1788". TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:16, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Cleaner, more articulate version of what TheVirginiaHistorian is attempting to say
- Can Stamp images be used in topical/general articles without critical commentary, to illustrate a brief passage about the image, where the notability of that particular stamp isn't established, nor are there any visual aspects of the work being discussed, beyond a brief summary/discription of the work?
- I think this RFC covers a number of issues:
- Most concretely, is the specific image File:Virginia ratification 1988 U.S. stamp.1.jpg being appropriately used on article History of Virginia on stamps ?
- More generally, what is the policy framework that should be applied for other post-1978 stamps (and I believe there are others, even relating just to the history of Virginia) in this and other articles on themes in stamps ?
- Is the guideline WP:NFCI #3 relevant here ? If so, what steer does it give the discussion ?
- Finally, specifically on the meaning of WP:NFCI #3, which says that it can be okay just to use a stamp "for identification" (i.e. simply to show what the stamp looks like). How should this be interpreted ? If for example a person X has been featured on a stamp, and that fact is mentioned in the article, is it okay to show what the stamp looked like, if the image is being used specifically in the context of the stamp, rather than as the main identification of person X at the top of the article ?
- (Note that there is now a devoted subsection to consider this particular sub-part of the overall question below. Jheald (talk) 15:22, 1 May 2014 (UTC))
- As there are quite a number of questions here, more nuanced responses are probably appropriate than just "support" or "oppose". Jheald (talk) 11:06, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- I think this RFC covers a number of issues:
- @Jheald: Werieth is attempting to recast the RfC based on misrepresentation. There is critical commentary on the 200th anniversary of the event commemorated on the stamp, both from a) the Smithsonian Institute's National Postal Museum, online Arago, and b) the scholarly Virginia history by Peter Wallenstein published by the Universtiy Press of Kansas. The stamp qualifies as notable because it was issued for the public use in the millions, and the event is significant enough to have a stand alone article at WP, Virginia Ratification Convention.
- I am opposed to simply identifying a stamp as having been issued alone, based on discussions a month ago. To meet the contextual significance criterion for #8 before admitting the stamp as an illustration, there must be a) sourced description of the cultural-historical significance; --- this is what we would expect from an encyclopedia article versus a stamp gallery --- THEN optionally b) something about the postal usage (rate, printing, numbers); optionally c) something about the unique art of the stamp itself, such as the designer, etcher, or printer; optionally d) any literary controversy surrounding the stamp or its art.
- There is no requirement for a literary controversy over the visual medium before using the stamp as an illustration, only WP:FREER that including the image enables the reader to "identify on object" such as a coin "front and back are normally used". In the case of USPS nfc stamps, the reader cannot identify the stamp without seeing it. To identify a specific stamp, the front would be normally used.
- Shouldn't Werieth's disruption here be removed? He characterizes multiple critical commentaries as "zero" elsewhere in this discussion, he persists in a clear misrepresentation even after his misunderstanding is pointed out to him. A case of "I can't hear you." re-hashing arguments a month ago that I do not now hold. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 12:02, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- TheVirginiaHistorian, what do you consider critical commentary in History of Virginia on stamps about File:Virginia ratification 1988 U.S. stamp.1.jpg? Please be specific and quote the article text. Basic descriptions and facts are not considered critical commentary. Looking at your points above, A&B are not critical commentary, C&D may be critical commentary depending on how its done. I asked you to clarify the RfC because the way you phrased it was poor. Werieth (talk) 12:30, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Shouldn't Werieth's disruption here be removed? He characterizes multiple critical commentaries as "zero" elsewhere in this discussion, he persists in a clear misrepresentation even after his misunderstanding is pointed out to him. A case of "I can't hear you." re-hashing arguments a month ago that I do not now hold. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 12:02, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
* WT:WikiProject Philately has been notified of this discussion. Jheald (talk) 13:27, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for canvassing. --MASEM (t) 15:08, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- For the record, (1) it wasn't me that made the first post at WT:WikiProject Philately to signpost this discussion; and (2) it's not unreasonable to draw users' attention to policy discussions that specifically relate to them. Jheald (talk) 15:22, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
@Werieth:, @Jheald: Contextual significance comes from viewing the larger cultural-historic milieu apart from the explicit significance which comes from the specific event. The explicit significance of a Ratification Convention is the approval (Virginia) or rejection (Rhode Island).
The contextual significance of a Ratification Convention is the meaning of the resolution (pro or con) to the debate in other states, or to the geographic continuity of the proposed Union, or to the subsequent adoption of the Bill of Rights.
As referenced, linked and quoted to you before, "Virginia was substantially the largest of the thirteen states, with territory cutting west through to the Mississippi River. Without approval of Virginia and New York which likewise cut the other state territories in two, the agreement of the others would have had little effect.[27] Virginia was home to leaders supporting the Constitution such as George Washington and James Madison, and those opposing such as Patrick Henry and George Mason. Only after a promise for a Bill of Rights did Virginia narrowly ratify.[28]”
Any one of the three, sourced from the Smithsonian Institute’s National Postal Museum, Arago online, or from the University Press of Kansas’ “Cradle of America: four centuries of Virginia history” by Wallenstein, a book, would qualify for contextual significance to meet WP:NFCC #8 Contextual significance. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:20, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- I asked for critical commentary about the stamp, not the event that it commemorated. This is a case of WP:NFC#UUI#3,9. Without critical commentary of the image on the stamp there is no need to display the stamp. Werieth (talk) 12:24, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- You misconstrue your references. This is not an article on the building, the stamp image is not an illustration of the building for the article.
- Number 3. "A rose, cropped from a record album, to illustrate an article on roses.” --- The concrete design pictures the colonial Capitol building as a rose? but the stamp is NOT used to illustrate an article on buildings. The explicit context of the stamp itself is related as the Virginia Ratification Convention, conveying notability to the 200th anniversary commemoration.
- Number 9. "A magazine or book cover, to illustrate the article on the person” photographed. — The concrete design pictures the colonial Capitol building as a person photographed? but the stamp is NOT used to illustrate the colonial Capitol building. The contextual context of the stamp itself is related as the geographical import, political influence to other ratifying conventions, and impact on the subsequent passage of the Bill of Rights.
- Your citations do not support your point, they are a straw man unrelated to the subject at hand. There is no article here on the building alone as a rose in #3, there is no attempt to illustrate the building alone in the article as a photographic portrait in #9. The article gives both explicit and contextual context to the design image for the stamp itself, a commemoration of the 200th anniversary of the Virginia Ratification Convention. WP:NFCC #8 is met. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:44, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Actually its using a non-free image to illustrate a passage about an event that was commemorated. There are details and sources for the historical event, but not about the stamp itself. Nothing in the text creates justification for including a non-free file. It boils down to using an image to illustrate a historical event. Werieth (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Your citations do not support your point, they are a straw man unrelated to the subject at hand. There is no article here on the building alone as a rose in #3, there is no attempt to illustrate the building alone in the article as a photographic portrait in #9. The article gives both explicit and contextual context to the design image for the stamp itself, a commemoration of the 200th anniversary of the Virginia Ratification Convention. WP:NFCC #8 is met. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:44, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Werieth, VaHistorian, you're both being silly here.
- @VaHistorian: In the context of the subject of the article, the stamp is not adding to reader understanding by illustrating the historical event (or any text about it), it's adding to reader understanding by being an important example of a stamp, which you need to establish is relevant to give an appropriately full and rounded presentation and information about the subject. The fact that you have sources underlining the importance of the historical event is fine, but it is the relevance of the stamp that you are trying to establish here.
- @Werieth: This isn't an article about the history of Virginia (not really). We have those elsewhere. It's an article about stamps. UUI #3 and #9 aren't relevant here, because the image couldn't be replaced by a generic non-stamp image of the event and still perform the same function. Secondly the test not whether the image adds to understanding of the text, it's whether the image adds to understanding of the topic. The latter can be true whether or not there is text about the image, cf Jimbo's response when he was asked about the pound coins, as well as several of the uncontroversial classes at WP:NFCI. Jheald (talk) 15:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- No, this is an spin out article from History of Virginia, to show how the history has been commemorated on stamps. History of Virginia on stamps is not a notable topic but works fine as a standalone spinoff of the main history article (if the History article was short enough, the the stamps part would likely be part of the main article, but that's not the case here). And as such, we have several free examples of showing how stamps have been used to commemorate the history. If the only way that this aspect could be shown was via non-free, I would have less a problem with its use, but you had a couple dozen free images that clearly show the same principles. And again, Jimbo's reply on coins specifically noting something in active circulation doesn't apply here, otherwise that immediately allows for every single stamp ever published in the world to be included, and that's clearly not the intent of how this policy was developed. --MASEM (t) 15:12, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- "Active" circulation wasn't something Jimbo made a big deal of. The point is that non-free can sometimes be used to give an appropriately rounded and full presentation of a topic, even without comment on the individual items, if doing so adds appropriately to reader understanding of the topic as a whole.
- As for what the "topic" of this article is, that's discussed in detail elsewhere on this page. But honestly, this article isn't about history, it's about stamps. If it extends anything, it's an article that adds one more to our articles on Stamps of the United States. Jheald (talk) 15:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Arguably, the way TVH has broken down this article is the history stand point first, the fact there were stamps, second. Also, I would not be surprised that the topic "Commemorative stamps of the history of Colonial US" (as a whole) could be GNG-notable topic (as it clearly was a popular theme in the mid-late 20th Century with various 200th anniversaries coming around), and breaking out how the individual histories of each states were represented on stamps also makes sense, even if those aren't notable - this example is a crossover article of both topics. This article is not going anywhere soon, but what purpose it is serving does play to the importance of the images we add in additional to numerous other factors. --MASEM (t) 16:13, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- No, this is an spin out article from History of Virginia, to show how the history has been commemorated on stamps. History of Virginia on stamps is not a notable topic but works fine as a standalone spinoff of the main history article (if the History article was short enough, the the stamps part would likely be part of the main article, but that's not the case here). And as such, we have several free examples of showing how stamps have been used to commemorate the history. If the only way that this aspect could be shown was via non-free, I would have less a problem with its use, but you had a couple dozen free images that clearly show the same principles. And again, Jimbo's reply on coins specifically noting something in active circulation doesn't apply here, otherwise that immediately allows for every single stamp ever published in the world to be included, and that's clearly not the intent of how this policy was developed. --MASEM (t) 15:12, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Survey
- Support use of USPS stamp images using the USPS licensing template, with adjacent commentary describing the stamp, its postal use and a neutral critique showing the analytical relevance to the topic, --- which is unlike the prohibited description of the subject depicted on it. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:16, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose Given that their is zero critical commentary about the image beyond a basic description. Given your example this would open the door carte blanche usage despite the requirements set forth by WP:NFCC#1,3,8. We have already hashed this out and you are just forum shopping because you dislike the previous outcome. Werieth (talk) 13:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- PS NFCI#3 refers to the usage of a stamp on the article about the stamp (similar case to book covers and album cover art.) Not the general topical articles. Werieth (talk) 13:26, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Your opposition comment indicates that you have not read the passage with both Arago and Wallenstein commentary. They refer to the Ratification Convention, they are not describing the colonial Capitol building pictured. You are blindly repeating specious argument from a previous discussion weeks ago. You are misreading NFCI#3. Keep your discussion in the Threaded discussion section. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:43, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Dont move my comments. If you are referring to the text Capitol building featured on the stamp Thats not critical commentary its a description. Werieth (talk) 14:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- You continue to deny the existence of all three together: the concrete description (Capitol building), explicit significance (ratification passed), and contextual significance (geographic, inter-state debates, subsequent Bill of Rights). You are simply knocking down straw men to no constructive purpose. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:41, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Dont move my comments. If you are referring to the text Capitol building featured on the stamp Thats not critical commentary its a description. Werieth (talk) 14:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Your opposition comment indicates that you have not read the passage with both Arago and Wallenstein commentary. They refer to the Ratification Convention, they are not describing the colonial Capitol building pictured. You are blindly repeating specious argument from a previous discussion weeks ago. You are misreading NFCI#3. Keep your discussion in the Threaded discussion section. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:43, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Support 100% per TheVirginiaHistorian. My worry about the folk at NFCR is that they run a cartel with attitude. Just about everything I wanted to do with contributing to Wikipedia's coverage of contemporary visual arts I can't, or at least am no longer prepared to essay given the hassle with the NFCR mission guardians, steam lords of the Wikimedia Foundation yeah right. Ultimately our only recourse is to vote with our feet. I'm not contributing any more, or at any rate as I did substantially at say Little Girl in a Blue Armchair, until these folk have been sorted (good) and it's once more worth the trouble of my time contributing.
- There are US stamp issues I would like to write article starts for, the Modern Art in America 1913–1931 issue or the Abstract Expressionism issue for example, but that's not going to happen until I can feel confident about uploading fair use images of each of these stamps, as expressly allowed by USPS for educational and cataloguing purposes, without having to go to court about it. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 18:32, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- What the USPS wants/allows has zero impact on NFC as long as limits full, unrestricted downstream use. Period.--MASEM (t) 04:50, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- Well I do get that's your view. The attitude that goes with the "period" bit is that you and your fellows (your royal "we", the cartel) are tasked by the Wikimedia Foundation to protect its mission. I don't believe you are and I'm not playing ball. My guess is that you will respond, repeating yourself. Frankly don't bother, Masem. End of. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 12:37, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- It's not my point of view, it is the Foundations The Resolution is clear that whatever is not free as defined by [9] is non-free. The USPS license does not meet that definition of free, so we treat is as non-free. There's zero interpretation in that. --MASEM (t) 20:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- And the Foundation has promulgated a USPS licensing template which allows their use under the policy guideline WP:NFCI #3 Stamps, which is consistent with WP:NFCC. Which should not be interpreted in an idiosyncratic way to take away the plain meaning. A stamp under the USPS license with contextual significance related in adjacent text can be used in a topical philately article. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:34, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- It's not my point of view, it is the Foundations The Resolution is clear that whatever is not free as defined by [9] is non-free. The USPS license does not meet that definition of free, so we treat is as non-free. There's zero interpretation in that. --MASEM (t) 20:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Well I do get that's your view. The attitude that goes with the "period" bit is that you and your fellows (your royal "we", the cartel) are tasked by the Wikimedia Foundation to protect its mission. I don't believe you are and I'm not playing ball. My guess is that you will respond, repeating yourself. Frankly don't bother, Masem. End of. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 12:37, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- What the USPS wants/allows has zero impact on NFC as long as limits full, unrestricted downstream use. Period.--MASEM (t) 04:50, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Administrative break
- @Masem:. The template WP license protects WP, not self-censorship. Unreasonable restriction which is unrelated to actual stated policy is at the core of the dispute.
- By the WP license template, use of the image is permitted "to illustrate the stamp in question (as opposed to things appearing in the stamp's design) --- on the English-language Wikipedia, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profitWikimedia Foundation, — due to the educational purpose at WP, the image use ... "qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law."
- then the warning, --- "Other use of this image, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, may be copyright infringement.” --- The "other use" which may be copyright infringement on WP is explicitly a stamp illustration for "things appearing in the stamp's design”. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:32, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- The only consideration of the copyright holders' intention in evaluating nonfree use is via NFCC#2, commercial opportunities. And the USPS statement on use at least assures that #2 is met for stamps. But there's 9 other NFCC points otherwise completely unrelated to the for-academic license. This is black or white on how NFCC is written, there's no intrepretion possible here. --MASEM (t) 13:53, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- No interpretation stands without a policy to back it up. We are absent any policy to self-censor licensed USPS stamp images that are used to illustrate the stamp itself, not the image on the stamp, because there is no other possible interpretation in how WP:NFCC is written than to allow it.
- In this case, #1, there is no free alternative, #2, there is no lost revenue to USPS, #3, no multiple image of same content in the article, #4, previous publication on the stamp issue date, #5, content meets WP standards, #6, meets image use policy for stamps, #7, used in at least one article, implying more than one are permitted, #8, contextual significance of Virginia ratification convention with its own WP article, #9, allowed only in an article, and #10 image description page includes source, copyright tag, and name of each article, implying more than one permitted. All ten are met for the File:Virginia ratification 1988 U.S. stamp.1.jpg at History of Virginia on stamps. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- For #1 and #3, no image is a free alternative if there is no demonstration of the impact on educational quality if the image is removed (eg NFCC#8). Since we have text that affirms that the stamp exists and was commemorated to relate to an historical event, we're not losing any educational quality on that. There is nothing in the text that describes the image of the stamp itself that requires seeing the stamp to otherwise understand the existance of the stamp in context, so #1 and #8 fail, and since we minimize non-free we remove it. --MASEM (t) 16:39, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- "nothing in the text that describes the image of the stamp itself" isn't, and never has been, the test. The image itself adds to the rounded understanding readers get of the topic of the article: what stamps have been issued with Virginia history as their theme, including what did those stamps look like. Jheald (talk) 17:30, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- 99% of the time, yes it is, this is no different. And you are ignoring NFCC#8 part 2 - the image can be removed and no harm is done to the reader's understanding of the topic, that Virginia's history has been commemorated on US stamps. That's clearly a failure here without any additional critical commentary. This is why critical commentary on an image is the most objective and clear way to pass NFCC#8 - if others have talked about the image on the stamp specifically, then it makes sense for us to show it . But if no one has talks about the image directly, then we shouldn't be including that either. This is a clear bright line for a case like this especially when there's dozens of other free stamp images that demonstrate the topic already. --MASEM (t) 17:40, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- (ec) The point of the article is not to present just that Virginia's history has been commemorated on US stamps, but how Virginia's history has been commemorated on US stamps. Understanding of which this image specifically adds to, over and above what any of the other images adds: an additional understanding which would not be conveyed without it.
- I can't help but be reminded of the pound coin discussion, which found that there was encyclopedic value in comprehensively presenting what British pound coins looked like, just for what they looked like. Something Jimbo himself agreed with. You tried to make the same false argument then, that we couldn't show an image unless it was necessary to understand the text, or unless it was specifically called out by secondary sources, and the argument didn't run then either. Jheald (talk) 18:17, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- There is no "how" being answered here, that's already explained by the fact "Virginia's history has been commemorated on stamps by the US gov't". This is why this is a list article - it's listing out specific "what"s that have been commemorated. I will point out that the coin issue was closed "no consensus" and with strong recommendation to find sourcing for the other issues of the pound, and reading Wales' statement does not infer that specific usage was okay - he made it clear that a coin in circulation should be imaged non-free or otherwise, but didn't comment on the mass images. And given that this stamp is no longer in circulation, that same argument that applies to the pound coins doesn't fly.
- NFCC#8 has a very simple question - does the removal of the image harm the average reader's understand of the article topic. That answer, as the article's prose currently given, is unquestionably "no". For a stamp collector, sure, but we're not a collection catalog/guide. A link to the Postal Museum page is sufficient if someone needs to see the image. This is a flat out case that if we override NFC we are letting in a huge class of images that have been routined deleted before - not just stamps or currency, but anywhere the first part of NFCC#8 can be answered "yes", and the second part "no". This has been a non-edge case for years - if the image had been included, it would have been flagged for FFD and likely deleted with little fanfare. So this is a massive massive change in practice that is impossible to work with our goal of minimizing non-free content. So unless you can answer from the average reader's POV how there harm of the topic "Virgina's history being commemorated on stamps" given everything else, including the couple-dozen some other images, by removing the non-free stamp image, then this is an open and shut case. Note: A counter-case would be if we could have an article "The Simpsons on postage stamps" where there would no way a free image could be used for that (due to both the recentness (post 1983) and the copyrighted nature of the work). In such a case a representative non-free single stamp or sheet would be fine, even if there was no critical discussion of the stamp, as this would be the case of showing a single example to help illustrate, and no free equivalent exists. This is not the case in the Virginia article where the couple dozen other free stamps exist already. --MASEM (t) 19:03, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- If it wasn't for WP:AGF, I'd assume you were just being deliberately obtuse now.
- If there's an article called History of Virginia on stamps, then the question how that history has been commemorated should be expected to be covered with rather more of an answer than just the bald statement "by issuing some stamps". Specifically, the reader should expect to find out what those stamps have looked like -- since that is the most characteristic distinguishing feature of a stamp.
- And then once again there's your bizarre theory that we somehow need to judge whether omitting the image would somehow harm the understanding of the article that the reader would have had, if the image hadn't been there -- rather than the obvious interpretation of the second half of NFCC #8 that one needs to consider the understanding the reader would have if the image is there, and consider how that would be harmed (or not) by omitting the image or trying to convey the information in some different way. You've tried your strange reinterpretation any number of times now, and I don't know of a single person who's ever found it convincing, or even logically coherent. Time to give it a break.
- Then your strange view once more that, so long as there's some website we can link to, there's no need for coverage here; and/or that we shouldn't even try to cover specialist topics comprehensively -- despite the very first point of WP:5 that WP is an encyclopedia that "combines many features of general and specialized encyclopedias, almanacs and gazeteers." (emphasis added). Your miserable ambition-sapping notion of just handing things off to other websites goes diametrically against the fundamental credo of why we're here: because we're different to other websites. We're the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. We're the encyclopedia that anyone can extend or correct or re-write. We're the encyclopedia whose content anyone can reuse. They are not. And that is why our m:vision is to describe as much of the world as we can find volunteers to write and sources to verify. Which includes really rather good new fully encyclopedic articles on philately by theme, which (like everything else) we should try to make as rounded and comprehensive as we can.
- But let's return to NFCC #1, in particular the second half of that clause "where no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose." From your post above one might conclude that the only purpose you see in any of these images is simply to colour some pixels, so any old images would do. But the purpose of illustration in an article like this is not just to gratuitously colour some pixels, it is to inform the reader by showing them a representative survey of what the objects being discussed in the article actually looked like. (Or even a comprehensive survey, if the number of objects is limited, and the copyright taking plainly very slight). That includes being representative as to date - not just pre-1978, and to design - not just very very traditional stamp portraiture. Simply showing only the oldest images does not fulfil the same encyclopedic purpose, because it does not convey the same understanding.
- Finally, you might want to re-read the close in the pound coin discussion: "There is a consensus to keep the images in the article, citing that the removal would be detrimental to the article." Yes, if possible, discussions of why the particular designs were chosen would be nice, and certainly an area where expansion should be encouraged, but it was not found to be a pre-requisite. The discussion was not closed "no consensus", it was closed "keep". You made the same arguments you made here, and they were rejected, both by Jimbo and by the closing admin. Jheald (talk) 22:42, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- Absolute bullshit. These are all arguments weakening our strong enforcement of NFC to minimize non-free as persuant to the free content mission.
- Point 1 about the nature of the article. First, content that fits "X on stamps" would be something I would include in a topic's legacy section; if there's SIZE issues it would be properly spun on into a list article as all these topical ones are (eg I am not questioning the validity of these list articles in the broad sense). But all we're doing is saying "here's a number of stamps that show how X was commemorated on stamps", and there is zero exception for the average reader to actually see any stamps. And since we are not a stamp catalog or collector guide, we do not need to show the image of every stamp (even if free). A few examples help, and if we have a number of free ones, a link to a Commons catagory is proper. So no, there is no requirement that "X on stamps" need to show every possible or even a majority of stamps.
- Point 2 on NFCC#8 - I can tell you that it would be impossible to argue that any image fails NFCC#8 based on the test was "the removal of an existing image", because that is duplicating the first test (the article is improved by the addition) which is nearly impossible to disprove. The key word in NFCC#8 is omission - meaning "not included from the start". That word makes the second part a very different and important test that is how we have otherwise treated non-free for FFD in forever. (since NFC started at least). If the word was "removed" I would agree with that test, but it is "omission". And that's why the need for critical commentary about the image 99% of the time - the image may help beautify the text and be "oh, I see" but if it can be omitted and the reader still clear that Virgina's history was commemorated on stamps, NFCC#8 is outright failed.
- Point 3 on pointing to other sources. We are an encyclopedia, a tertiary summary work, We make no attempt to include all details on the subject but instead summarize in a very broad sense what the topic is about and backup with sources and links for the reader to learn more. And we are not a stamp catalog, so that also infers a limit for how much should be covered. Granted, these topical articles are something I don't see any equivalents of, and I think it's reasonable to describe the various ways that X has been commemorated, but in line with staying a summary work, these should brief to the average, non-stamp collector reader, linking to the appropriate sources that have better descriptions than we could ever do. So linking to external images when the image fails NFCC#8 is completely fair. And remember: "We're the encyclopedia whose content anyone can reuse." We can't be that if we include excess non-free - non-free limits reuse.
- Point 4 - I admit I thought it was closed no consensus, but the point here is as made by Jimbo, pictures of coins in circulation seem reasonable to have since a large number of people will see them every day. This here is not the case, we are talking stamps well out of circulation. Far different scenario - a historical relic seen by few compared to something touched by millions a day.
- Overall, every point people making in here are chopping (not chipping) away at the pillars of NFC and the Foundation Resolution on keep this a free mission. WP:VEGAN once again applies - people want small uses here, small uses there, and we'll find out the next day that the floodgates are burst open. We have to be vigilant about letting NFC be weakened (that is, increasing what allowance it has) without extremely good, encyclopedia reason. This is a very case that (under the present status of the article w/o critical commentary on the image) undermines the treatment of NFC. I'm a very reasonable person and I helped TVH to justify some stamp images on other articles, but this is a point where I am putting my foot down that we cannot let this type of use be allowed. If we do, we might as well thumb our noses at the Foundation and moon them, saying we no longer care about their damned resolution and just allow unfettered use of media under fair use. People need to understand how critical this specific case is. --MASEM (t) 23:19, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- Masem, you make a number of points above, most of which I believe are fundamentally misconceived, so please forgive me if I have to take several bites to get through them all. I will try to respond to them all in time.
- (BTW, these exchanges are getting rather long and detailed for a part of an RfC that is really supposed to be for summary position statements. If anyone wants to re-factor this discussion to a different part of the RfC in a sensible way, they have my blessing.)
- I think the most interesting issue you raise, and one which I think is well worth exploring by the community to see what we think, is this: what should we consider the "article topic" fundamentally is here, for the purpose of NFCC #8 ?
- Do we think that "History of Virginia on stamps" should be considered a fully first-rank encyclopedic topic, worthy of encyclopedic consideration in its own right? Or do we consider it as some kind of second-rank topic, merely an adjunct or a spin-out of "History of Virginia", not worth encyclopedic consideration in its own right, but being presented separately for reasons of space? (So that the relevance and significance of the stamp images should be considered only for the understanding they add about the general topic of 'the history of Virginia', rather than for their relevance and significance for the specific topic 'the history of Virginia as a theme on U.S. stamps.
- The article appears to be one of a growing number in Category:Postage stamps of the United States that explore how particular themes have been depicted in the country's stamps: for example Hanukkah stamps, U.S. space exploration history on U.S. stamps, Territories of the United States on stamps, Commemoration of the American Civil War on postage stamps, History of Virginia on stamps.
- The question is: do we regard these as appropriate first-rank encylopedic topics in their own right, to be illustrated as such; or are they merely adjuncts to other topics. Masem says no (and Masem is an honourable man). In Masem's view, such titles should only be regarded as overflow spin-outs from other topics, merely geared to summarise "the various ways that X has been commemorated", "[in] brief [for] the average, non-stamp collector reader", because we should be thinking of the "average reader", not the stamp collector, which "[implies] a limit for how much should be covered."
- I have to say that I don't think that that is a correct understanding of Wikipedia and what it aims to be for. I think we aim to be more than just a general encyclopedia catering only to the lowest common denominator of "average reader". IMO we aim to be a lot more than that. Per WP:5, as quoted above "WP is an encyclopedia that combines many features of general and specialized encyclopedias, almanacs and gazeteers." I see us rather (in analogy to the internet) as the encyclopedia of encyclopedias, bringing together all the specialist encyclopedias that one could imagine all under one roof -- including specialist encyclopedias (and gazeteers and almanacs) of particular places, times, subjects, movements of thought, that can sometimes be incredibly specialist (some of our deeper mathematics articles, for example), so long as (as I put it above) we can find the volunteers to write the articles and the sources to verify them. And as part of our "encyclopedia of encyclopedias", I would include articles that could be from an encyclopedia of philately, along with being a dictionary of national biograraphy and the rest. Sure, why not? This sense of almost limitless possibility, and encouraging anybody to come and contribute to it, is to me what gives WP its very spirit and life. Which is why I visceral reaction against what seems to me to be such a stunted, ambition-sapping and toxic view of how WP's scope should be ruthlessly clipped as described by Masem. We're here to describe the world, and put it in people's hands, as much as we possibly can. That's our m:vision.
- If we consider whether these are the kind of topics one might expect to find in a philatelic encyclopedia, or perhaps a philatelic encyclopedia of U.S. stamps, I think they are well-judged and appropriate. In fact, I think it is a more encyclopedic approach to bring issues together by theme in this way, than to have an individual article on each issue. And, you know, even for somebody like myself who only has the most casual interest in stamps, they're actually quite a good read.
- So in my view: yes, these titles should be treated as first-class article topics in their own right, and WP:NFC applied accordingly. But I think it would be useful for the community as a whole to give its view. Jheald (talk) 12:33, 1 May 2014 (UTC) (thoughts on some of Masem's other points to follow).
- Short answer: No, this can't be a article-class article. The topic "History of Virginia on stamps" fails to meet WP:N if it were treated as an article as there are no secondary sources to support that topic, a requirement for any article topic. There might be other cases of "X on stamps" that could be notable, the topic of "X on stamps" being specifically addressed by many sources, but I've not seen a case of such sources. But they are readily acceptable list articles (eg I'm not challenging the stand-alone nature of the page), a spinout of the "History of Virginia" article (which is clearly a notable topic). sourced mostly to primary works and with no sources specifically on the collective nature of "History of Virginia on stamps". If for "X in stamps" X was a rather brief article, we'd likely talk about the stamps within the body of that article. Remember that a list class article does not require bulleted lists or tables - this is just a logical non-narrative assembly of information. Note that in this specific case, I'm not considering whether the image is being included what is considered an article or a list, I'm looking at context and the failure of NFCC#8 and other NFCC criteria. (EG NFLISTS has no bearing on my arguments). --MASEM (t) 13:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- That's a well-constructed argument in abstract, but I (personally) don't buy it.
- The reality of the article is that has the smell and feel of a well-constructed article in its own right, worth reading in its own right, which people may come to through an interest in the postal stamps of North America, rather than the history of Virginia, rather than a set of left-overs from the latter article. Yes, you joined the dots well, but I think it is casuistry (ie "specious, deceptive, or oversubtle reasoning") to pretend that the manifest topic of this article is anything other than what its title says it is. Jheald (talk) 15:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- You may not buy it, but that's what it is to conform to the same practices used across all of WP. If you want to treat it as a stand alone title with no connection to History of Virginia, I would have to AFD this as a non-notable article composed only from primary sources, demonstration how narrow the coverage is. No, I don't want to, nor would do that, but to escape the AFD, it has to be considered a list spinout of the History of Virginia and not its own individual topic, which allows us to ignore the sourcing issue and let this stand on its own. (Note that it is completely possible to summarize this as "The US Postal Service has issued well over XX stamps that commemorate the history of Virginia." along with a few free representative examples to stick at the bottom of Virginia, if this were to actually be deleted, so we're not losing any information that is not outside of IINFO).
- Or to put it another way: Given topic X that has at least one commemorative stamp, discussing that factor in context of the topic makes complete sense (omitting it would be harmful, as well as any other ways that a national gov't has commemorated the topic). If there are multiple ones, then they can be discussed too, but these still are all in context of topic X. If there's so many to approach SIZE concerns, then splitting off the part about stamps is reasonable, but that new "article" remains under the coverage of topic X. --MASEM (t) 15:26, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Short answer: No, this can't be a article-class article. The topic "History of Virginia on stamps" fails to meet WP:N if it were treated as an article as there are no secondary sources to support that topic, a requirement for any article topic. There might be other cases of "X on stamps" that could be notable, the topic of "X on stamps" being specifically addressed by many sources, but I've not seen a case of such sources. But they are readily acceptable list articles (eg I'm not challenging the stand-alone nature of the page), a spinout of the "History of Virginia" article (which is clearly a notable topic). sourced mostly to primary works and with no sources specifically on the collective nature of "History of Virginia on stamps". If for "X in stamps" X was a rather brief article, we'd likely talk about the stamps within the body of that article. Remember that a list class article does not require bulleted lists or tables - this is just a logical non-narrative assembly of information. Note that in this specific case, I'm not considering whether the image is being included what is considered an article or a list, I'm looking at context and the failure of NFCC#8 and other NFCC criteria. (EG NFLISTS has no bearing on my arguments). --MASEM (t) 13:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- 99% of the time, yes it is, this is no different. And you are ignoring NFCC#8 part 2 - the image can be removed and no harm is done to the reader's understanding of the topic, that Virginia's history has been commemorated on US stamps. That's clearly a failure here without any additional critical commentary. This is why critical commentary on an image is the most objective and clear way to pass NFCC#8 - if others have talked about the image on the stamp specifically, then it makes sense for us to show it . But if no one has talks about the image directly, then we shouldn't be including that either. This is a clear bright line for a case like this especially when there's dozens of other free stamp images that demonstrate the topic already. --MASEM (t) 17:40, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- "nothing in the text that describes the image of the stamp itself" isn't, and never has been, the test. The image itself adds to the rounded understanding readers get of the topic of the article: what stamps have been issued with Virginia history as their theme, including what did those stamps look like. Jheald (talk) 17:30, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- The sources consulted are referenced as Dabney, "Virginian: the new dominion”, Wallenstein, “Cradel of America: four centuries of Virginia History”, and Heinemann et al, “Old dominion, new commonwealth”. The article is divided, half chronologically following Wallenstein and using footnotes from his book, the other half topically “Big ideas and landmarks”, and Virginia’s presidents”.
- The contextual significance of the Virginia Ratification stamp in “History of Virginia on stamps” meets all ten elements of NFCC including #8 as stated below item by item. You fail to recognize either a) the cultural-historical significance of historical analysis, or now even b) the existence of volumes of history and citations to Wallenstein. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 20:24, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- @TheVirginiaHistorian: What Masem is looking for is references to a source or sources that discuss the protrayal of VA history on stamps as a topic in its own right. It could be a book, a chapter, a pamphlet, even an isolated page or pages: but something that just supports the idea that how VA history has been presented on stamps is a topic worth reviewing in its own right.
- Yes, the article has references to history books that reference the stamps in the context of each event depicted. But without being able to read the books, it not clear whether they have any passages that introduce the idea that looking in the round at how that history has been presented on stamps should be a topic of interest worth studying (especially: rather than just as an adjunct to the history).
- I don't think it's a fatal objection, because a core principle of WP is to be flexible about rules to be able to "do the right thing", and you've clearly been able to create a solid well-sourced article here, which is the main motivating concern underlying WP:N. Topical stamp collecting is a very well-established thing, so looking at a nation's stamps through the lens of geographical area portrayed is an obvious topic to pursue. Jheald (talk) 15:36, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
administrative break
- Absent is any policy requirement in WP:NFCC #8 "contextual significance" for a controversy involving the design of the stamp itself. In fact, were the commentary to be restricted to stamp design, then displaying it would not be permitted by WP:NFCIGuideline #3 "Stamps". The significance is found in source treatment of the event memorialized on the stamp. In this case it is the 200th anniversary of the Virginia Ratification Convention.
- Removing the image of a visual medium such as a stamp does clearly harm the reader's understanding of the commemorative at issue. 'That Virginia's history has been commemorated on stamps' is not adequate. That is sort of like saying Picasso and Rembrandt painted women. A picture for comparison is worth a thousand words.
- And in a topical article on "Women in painting", each distinctive expression representing a significant event in painting history would merit an image representing it. Likewise each unique commemorative representing a person or event in Virginia of significance mentioned in the context of an authority such as Wallenstein in his "Cradle of America: four centuries of Virginia history", which rate their own stand-alone WP articles, merit an image representing it. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 18:10, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- NFCC overrides anything in NFCI; policy is stronger than the guideline. So images can appear to meet a given NFCI but still fail specific NFCC. And contextual significance is of the image, not the event. There's no question the event is significant but we don't use non-free just to show that if the image is not required. --MASEM (t) 19:02, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- And in a topical article on "Women in painting", each distinctive expression representing a significant event in painting history would merit an image representing it. Likewise each unique commemorative representing a person or event in Virginia of significance mentioned in the context of an authority such as Wallenstein in his "Cradle of America: four centuries of Virginia history", which rate their own stand-alone WP articles, merit an image representing it. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 18:10, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- No, the specific trumps the general. WP:NFC states in the introduction, "This document serves as the exemption doctrine policy of the English Wikipedia. Non-free content can be used on Wikipedia in certain cases…" [italics at policy added]
- In the discussion “Meeting the no free equivalent criterion" WP:FREER, “Meeting the contextual significance criterion”, a common circumstance meeting the criterion is "where only by including such non-free content, can the reader identify an object, style, or behavior, that is a subject of discussion in the article.” …For example for identification of specific coins, “images of the front and back are normally used.”
- In the case of USPS nfc stamps, the reader cannot identify the stamp without seeing it. To identify a specific stamp, the front design would be normally used unless the watermark were distinctive. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:10, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- No, specific doesn't trump general, at least when it comes to policy and guidelines. All of NFCI still must meet NFCC as stated on that page - policy trumps guidelines. Also, the "exemption doctrine policy" you quote is the term used by the Foundation, not our definition of "policy" in contrast to "guideline" -- NFC remains an NFC page that transludes a policy page to make it clear. --MASEM (t) 15:06, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- All is aligned, consistent and lawful. Foundation policy dictates NFCC, NFCC dictates NFCI, we are to assume good faith in the consensus building writers who write each level. The particular interprets the general, as in contract law, it is ruling. The most specific of all is the USPS template which allows non-free use of stamps beginning in 1978 at WP. If there were to be a change, there would have to be some written policy somewhere arrived at by consensus to restrict the plain meaning.
- No, specific doesn't trump general, at least when it comes to policy and guidelines. All of NFCI still must meet NFCC as stated on that page - policy trumps guidelines. Also, the "exemption doctrine policy" you quote is the term used by the Foundation, not our definition of "policy" in contrast to "guideline" -- NFC remains an NFC page that transludes a policy page to make it clear. --MASEM (t) 15:06, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- In the case of USPS nfc stamps, the reader cannot identify the stamp without seeing it. To identify a specific stamp, the front design would be normally used unless the watermark were distinctive. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:10, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Beginning with #1 of ten, There are no free-use equivalent images for USPS copyright stamp images. So the WP license is required. The reader cannot identify the stamp, which is a visual medium, without seeing it. The Virginia Ratification Convention for the Constitution at History of Virginia on stamps meets all ten NFCC elements, NFCI #3 for stamps, and the USPS license required at WP. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- In my view, the use of the content was appropriate. On the question of NFCI #3, in my view NFCI #3 is not conclusively determinative either way here; though on balance probably lends support to the keeping of the content (in my judgement). I will add a more detailed explanation of these conclusions in a moment. Jheald (talk) 19:21, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Reasons for the conclusion I have just posted:
- As a starting point it is important to note that the guidance lists at WP:NFCI (and other guidance lists at WP:NFC) are not intended to exhaustively cover every possible case. Rather they are intended to set out a few of the most common cases, where there is a clear community view that particular usages are acceptable or not acceptable. In the case of NFCI #3, use of an image for identification in an article about a particular stamp is appropriate; but use of an NFC stamp as a generic image of an object in an article about that object is not appropriate. Both of those are clear-cut situations, which I believe have clear community consensus for the position stated. However neither is the position here. This is not an article about a particular stamp, or a single set of stamps. But nor is it an article about an object that the NFC stamp is being used as a generic illustration of. So that is why, strictly speaking, I believe NFCI #3 is not conclusively determinative here either way. In such cases we should fall back to consider the underlying WP:NFCC criteria directly themselves.
- But first there is perhaps one more thing to note in the language of NFCI #3, and that is the word identification. There are various different thresholds set out in WP:NFCI for different classes of material in which it is accepted that their use to be likely to be uncontroversially compliant with the fundamental questions of judgment set by the WP:NFCC. Broadly, the different language used in different clauses of NFCI reflects the different degrees of copyright taking that such uses are likely to represent, considered in terms of the famous four factors of U.S. fair use law. "Identification" is the weakest such requirement set by the NFCI. It reflects that the use here, even without any commentary on the image, represents essentially no legal threat: not to ourselves, nor to fully commercial re-users either. The reasons for that assessment are fairly transparent: this was an image created for a very particular original purpose (ie to be a stamp, for people to stick on envelopes), which is not what we're using the image for, so, as the jargon has it, our use here is transformative. Furthermore, as a stamp, the image was previously distributed and circulated on a mass scale, so our use of the image here represents no additional exposure that might "wear out" the novelty or value of the image. And furthermore again, the very objective of the article as a whole is to give a review of what and how images were used for that purpose -- an objective that is specifically approved of by statute. All of which is why such images are put in the highest class flexibility recognised by WP:NFCI as how such images may be used.
- Having said that I think NFCI #3 is not conclusively determinative here, I should add that IMO I think it does lend some support to keeping the image, because the image is specifically being identified as a stamp, in the context of an article about stamps, rather than just as a generic image of an object in an article about that object generally. But I would accept that there is some ambiguity in NFCI #3 here, because it is not 100% clear either way whether the words "the stamp" should be taken just refer to the stamp that is shown in the image, or whether they contain any requirement that the stamp be the specific topic of the article.
- Ultimately, however, for any edge-case like this, we should go back to the NFC criteria themselves, and apply them directly: What is the key purpose of the article? Does the image add something significant to reader understanding (modulo the degree of copyright taking it represents) of that key topic, in a way that would or could not be achieved without the image, or with fewer NFC images?
- Here, the purpose of the article is to review how the state of Virginia and its history have been reflected in stamps issued by the U.S.'s national Mail service. In my view, the presence of this image does add something significant to that review, because almost uniquely it shows how an element of that history has been depicted in a much more contemporary design than anything else on the page. I think the image therefore particularly valuably helps balance a perception the reader might otherwise get that it is only old stamps (or very traditionally designed stamps) that have featured states' histories. Taking the above assessment that the degree of the copyright taking here is very slight, and not likely to cause a problem for us or a commercial reuser, or indeed any reuser of our article anywhere, together with my view that the image does indeed contribute something of real value to the understanding the reader gains of the topic of the article, that they would and could not gain without it or without some very similar non-free substitute, is why, in my view, the image should be kept. Jheald (talk) 21:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- The fact that there is only one modern stamp for this makes the need to show it much less important than this implies. Take history of painting as a counterexample. The history of painting has long continued through and beyond 1923 with some schools being entirely contained in the era of long form copyrights. It would be silly to deny limited NFC use on that article to illustrate these important schools. Here, there's one modern stamp and that's it. I would not consider it important to illustrate the sole example of a stamp for this article which is already full of free examples of the same. --MASEM (t) 23:52, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- This may be misconstruing WP:NFCC #3. Minimal usage. a. "Minimal number of items. Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information." — But each USPS stamp is separately unique, described in relation to the topic, the History of Virginia on stamps and the stamps are issued over time commemorating different events or different aspects of the same event, stamps released change substantially over time, especially among commemoratives.
- The fact that there is only one modern stamp for this makes the need to show it much less important than this implies. Take history of painting as a counterexample. The history of painting has long continued through and beyond 1923 with some schools being entirely contained in the era of long form copyrights. It would be silly to deny limited NFC use on that article to illustrate these important schools. Here, there's one modern stamp and that's it. I would not consider it important to illustrate the sole example of a stamp for this article which is already full of free examples of the same. --MASEM (t) 23:52, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Therefore each new issue is eligible for picturing as long as it is accompanied by narrative which places it in context of the topic. The point of the RfC relates to the Guideline #3 on stamps, which may not conform to paintings under copyright, since the USPS template specifically warns it cannot be used for any other purpose, i.e. painting images after 1923.
- There is an application for "minimal usage." The same stamp might be used to illustrate the landmark of the first representative government in the English colonies in the Landmarks section of the article, since the colonial Capitol building is a registered Historic Landmark. But "minimal usage" implies that it be used in only one place for each article. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 01:29, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- This is not how NFCC#3 is interpreted. Minimum use is minimum use in all aspects, within an article, repeated uses, and through WP. --MASEM (t) 04:50, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- That is the point of the RfC, as regards stamps, since "minimal in all aspects" is NOT what NFCC#3 Guideline for stamps, taken together with the enabling USPS license use template for stamps since 1978 means. Does NFCC#3 mean what it says? The protective hedge around WP is the licensing language, not artificially restrictive usage imposed without a foundation in the policy itself.
- This is not how NFCC#3 is interpreted. Minimum use is minimum use in all aspects, within an article, repeated uses, and through WP. --MASEM (t) 04:50, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- There is an application for "minimal usage." The same stamp might be used to illustrate the landmark of the first representative government in the English colonies in the Landmarks section of the article, since the colonial Capitol building is a registered Historic Landmark. But "minimal usage" implies that it be used in only one place for each article. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 01:29, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- By the WP license template, use of the image is permitted "to illustrate the stamp in question (as opposed to things appearing in the stamp's design) --- on the English-language Wikipedia, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profitWikimedia Foundation, --- then the warning, due to the educational purpose at WP, the image use ...qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law. Other use of this image, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, may be copyright infringement." -- on WP if the stamp is used solely to illustrate things appearing in the stamps's [copyrighted] design. As you have helped me understand before.
- Likewise in prohibited images, #8, "A Barry Bonds baseball card [may not be used], to illustrate the article on Barry Bonds. [But] The use may be appropriate to illustrate a passage on the card itself; see Billy Ripkin article." — in the case of the Virginia ratification stamp, the stamp image illustrates a passage on the stamp itself, in the context of Virginia history and postage usage, not the colonial Capitol building featured in the design.
- Each stamp issue, especially since the advent of commemorative sets, is another school of art, original designs and engravings which would be silly to to deny limited NFC use on any topical philately article to illustrate these important issues --- notable by simple virtue of the fact they are used by the public in the millions. This limited use requires only that it is used "to illustrate the stamp in question (as opposed to things appearing in the stamp's design), a phrase appearing in policy and in the upload licensing template. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:45, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- You are mixing up NFCC (policy) and NFCI (guideline). NFCI are commonly accepted uses of non-free, but as listed at the top of NFCI, this is not a guarentee such images can be used without question and all 10 points on NFCC are required. And no, you're not discussing schools of art in these topical stamp articles ; that would be a whole another topic (perhaps "Modernism in postage stamps"); you're discussing history. Again, to remind you, a good use of NFCC on one of these topic articles is what was previously discussed for Puerto_Rico_on_stamps specifically for the poet Julia de Burgos , where you have cited text that talks the images specifically unique to the stamp (not just a representation or portrait shot) , eg "The stamp features the poet with blue water flowing behind her, evoking one of her best known poems, “Río Grande de Loíza,”..." which the reader's understanding is clearly harmed if we did not show that image inline. ("What water? How is it represented?"). This is meeting NFCC#8 and where NFCI#3 is intended to apply, when we can show the stamp along with critical commentary about it. --MASEM (t) 16:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- I am opposed to simply identifying a stamp as having been issued alone, based on discussions a month ago. To meet the contextual significance criterion for #8 before admitting the stamp as an illustration, there MUST be a) sourced description of the cultural-historical significance; --- this is what we would expect from an encyclopedia article versus a stamp gallery --- THEN optionally b) something about the postal usage (rate, printing, numbers); optionally c) something about the unique art of the stamp itself, such as the designer, etcher, or printer; optionally d) any literary controversy surrounding the stamp or its art.
- You are mixing up NFCC (policy) and NFCI (guideline). NFCI are commonly accepted uses of non-free, but as listed at the top of NFCI, this is not a guarentee such images can be used without question and all 10 points on NFCC are required. And no, you're not discussing schools of art in these topical stamp articles ; that would be a whole another topic (perhaps "Modernism in postage stamps"); you're discussing history. Again, to remind you, a good use of NFCC on one of these topic articles is what was previously discussed for Puerto_Rico_on_stamps specifically for the poet Julia de Burgos , where you have cited text that talks the images specifically unique to the stamp (not just a representation or portrait shot) , eg "The stamp features the poet with blue water flowing behind her, evoking one of her best known poems, “Río Grande de Loíza,”..." which the reader's understanding is clearly harmed if we did not show that image inline. ("What water? How is it represented?"). This is meeting NFCC#8 and where NFCI#3 is intended to apply, when we can show the stamp along with critical commentary about it. --MASEM (t) 16:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- Each stamp issue, especially since the advent of commemorative sets, is another school of art, original designs and engravings which would be silly to to deny limited NFC use on any topical philately article to illustrate these important issues --- notable by simple virtue of the fact they are used by the public in the millions. This limited use requires only that it is used "to illustrate the stamp in question (as opposed to things appearing in the stamp's design), a phrase appearing in policy and in the upload licensing template. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:45, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- There is no requirement for a literary controversy over the visual medium before using the stamp as an illustration, only WP:FREER that including the image enables the reader to "identify an object" such as a coin "front and back are normally used". In the case of USPS nfc stamps, the reader cannot identify the stamp without seeing it. To identify a specific stamp, the front would be normally used. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 12:19, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, the stamp commemorating the Virginia Constitution is placed on the section that describes this commemoration (of which the stamp is part), so it's relevant and can be used to identify it. Usage is minimal, as removing the image would no longer allow readers to identify the stamp. Diego (talk) 13:16, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- Case-by-case treatment. If it's a one-liner mentioning the stamp, then probably not. But if there's a decently sized paragraph describing it, perhaps a non-free image is appropriate. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:08, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Threaded discussion
A brief synopsis of non-free use of stamps in this case can be found at Talk:History of Virginia on stamps#Rationale for non-free content stamp use, including discussion of the licensing tag information, WP:NFCC and WP:NFCI. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:16, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, it says up top, "A place for help with image copyrights, tagging, non-free content, and related questions." You said the other location was "shopping" before. Did you want to move the RfC elsewhere? how is that decided? TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:29, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- I called it shopping when you opened the same discussion on multiple pages. When having an RfC about a policy/guideline it should be held on the talk page of that policy/guideline. As for moving it the simplest thing to do would be to have you just copy/paste it to WT:NFCC and remove it from here leaving a pointer and note that the discussion was moved. Werieth (talk) 13:32, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- @ Werieth, you are disrupting the intent of the Survey section above by introducing discussion there, just as you demonstrate a failure to understand other WP policy and procedure. Discussion there should be moved to Threaded discussion, why would you object to my moving discussion to Threaded discussion?
- I called it shopping when you opened the same discussion on multiple pages. When having an RfC about a policy/guideline it should be held on the talk page of that policy/guideline. As for moving it the simplest thing to do would be to have you just copy/paste it to WT:NFCC and remove it from here leaving a pointer and note that the discussion was moved. Werieth (talk) 13:32, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, it says up top, "A place for help with image copyrights, tagging, non-free content, and related questions." You said the other location was "shopping" before. Did you want to move the RfC elsewhere? how is that decided? TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:29, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- By referring to the Capitol building pictured, you demonstrate you have not read the linked material on the Constitution Ratification Convention with Arago and Wallenstein citations, the analytical commentary regarding the significance of the commemorative stamp itself, not the item pictured. The Convention is not the Capitol. One discussion relates to the significance of the event commemorated as it relates to the topic History of Virginia on stamps, the other identification is a concrete object of bricks and mortar.
- Guideline #3 says that non-free content stamps may be used as a matter of policy "for identification of the stamp or currency, not the subjects depicted on it." -- without restrictions about what kind of articles use the images, --- such as topical philately articles including History of Virginia on stamps. That is the point of this RfC concerning Guideline #3, which so far you have failed to show you understand. We await others input. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:50, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Adding a PS comment to a post isnt a disruption, nor does it violate any policy. It is a comment that goes with the initial post but was added after the fact, I could have modified my previous statement but I find that very annoying when others do it, and dont do it myself. Adding a PS enables me to tag on further information after the fact without being misleading, or having to modify timestamps and such. As for NFCI#3 just because a image may meet any one of those NFCI guides doesnt mean that it should be included. Its not a free ticket to use non-free media if it happens to meet the criteria. Reading citations doesnt provide critical commentary, critical commentary must exist in the article, not just the sources. Since you didnt read the copious amounts of text in the previous discussion which explained the facts to you by several editors Im not sure what else will help you understand it. This sounds like a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT because you disagreed with the outcome. Ill give you a few more hours to move this RfC to the proper venue, if thats not done Ill close it as invalid. Werieth (talk) 14:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- You are working off of the discussion over Puerto Rico on stamps weeks ago which has since been amended, without reading History of Virginia on stamps today, a better written case using the information I learned from the last discussion.
- Adding a PS comment to a post isnt a disruption, nor does it violate any policy. It is a comment that goes with the initial post but was added after the fact, I could have modified my previous statement but I find that very annoying when others do it, and dont do it myself. Adding a PS enables me to tag on further information after the fact without being misleading, or having to modify timestamps and such. As for NFCI#3 just because a image may meet any one of those NFCI guides doesnt mean that it should be included. Its not a free ticket to use non-free media if it happens to meet the criteria. Reading citations doesnt provide critical commentary, critical commentary must exist in the article, not just the sources. Since you didnt read the copious amounts of text in the previous discussion which explained the facts to you by several editors Im not sure what else will help you understand it. This sounds like a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT because you disagreed with the outcome. Ill give you a few more hours to move this RfC to the proper venue, if thats not done Ill close it as invalid. Werieth (talk) 14:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Guideline #3 says that non-free content stamps may be used as a matter of policy "for identification of the stamp or currency, not the subjects depicted on it." -- without restrictions about what kind of articles use the images, --- such as topical philately articles including History of Virginia on stamps. That is the point of this RfC concerning Guideline #3, which so far you have failed to show you understand. We await others input. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 14:50, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- You misrepresent the additional sourced critique compared to earlier examples which you refuse to acknowledge exists -- the narrative is not only identification that the stamp exists picturing the Capitol building. You have made no legitimate objection to the article as written or its use of the stamp. As you fail to see the difference between another article weeks ago and this article today, we await input from others. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 16:19, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
If this is the venue for a general discussion of WP:NFCI #3, the issue remains whether Werieth's characterization of it as meaning only one use for one-stamp article applies.
On the contrary, there may be multiple page uses of one image, there may be multiple fair-use images of different subjects on the same page. WP:NFCC #7, #3. The template used for USPS uploads notes that there may be multiple article(s), and specifies that the rationale for each must be addressed. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 18:07, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Re American stamps at least, works by the US Government are generally in the public domain. I assume that this must not apply to stamps for some arcane reason or we wouldn't be having this discussion. In which case the File Upload Form, which says (as one of the justifications for uploading a file) "I can demonstrate that this work is legally in the Public Domain, i.e. nobody owns any copyrights on it. This may be for a variety of reasons, for instance because it was created by the US Federal Government..." is pretty misleading, and that's a problem (but a different problem I guess). Herostratus (talk) 23:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- The stamps issued by the U.S. Postal Department USPD until 1978 are free use. The stamps issued by the U.S. Postal Service USPS beginning 1978 have a copyright. WP has policies for non-free content use, including stamps. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 01:01, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oooooh, right, privatization. Herostratus (talk) 14:41, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- The stamps issued by the U.S. Postal Department USPD until 1978 are free use. The stamps issued by the U.S. Postal Service USPS beginning 1978 have a copyright. WP has policies for non-free content use, including stamps. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 01:01, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Purpose
TheVirginiaHistorian can you please clear up and make the purpose/goal of the RfC clear? right now it is extremely vague. Werieth (talk) 20:29, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- The first purpose is to inquire after the community’s sense of whether the WP:NFCI Guideline #3 and others as policy and the licensing tag {{Template:Non-free USGov-USPS stamp}}, allows for use of USPS stamps "to illustrate the stamp in question (as opposed to things appearing in the stamp’s design)” in topical philately stamps — in this case, the Virginia ratification stamp is to illustrate the stamp’s commemoration of the 200th anniversary of Virginia’s ratification of the Constitution.
- Four editors, TheVirginiaHistorian, Coat of Many Colours, Gwhillickers on the article Talk page, and Jheald here say yes. Masem, who has agreed with Werieth before, has not yet joined the discussion for this case. Werieth has moved the venue. Why? --- So to date, Werieth alone is disagreed, based on the false premise that a) interpretive critical commentary of a Ratifying Convention in the context of Virginia history from two sources, Arago and Wallenstein, is the same as b) merely identifying the building pictured on a stamp.
- The requirement is that the image be used to visually illustrate the stamp itself --- as representing something larger than the design itself. The stamp image then may be pictured, not only described in words, --- that is what the WP USPS license is for, to implement NFCI Guideline #3 "Stamps and currency" at the upload for each image's use in WP "article(s)", as it is said in policy and templates.
- Another purpose of this RfC here or elsewhere is to build a consensus in collaboration "to illustrate the stamp in question" in topical philately articles --- as allowed for in the USPS license, WP:NFCI Guideline #3 "Stamps" and in other policy citations, to advance the exchange of knowledge in an online encyclopedia. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 00:54, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- You need to define the fact that this is for topical and general articles then. I have never disputed the usage of a stamp on the article about that stamp. The issue arises when you start illustrating stamps that either are not notable, or lack critical commentary. You are twisting my words and not listening. File:Virginia ratification 1988 U.S. stamp.1.jpg has zero critical commentary about the stamp, there is a brief discription in the article, but thats it. Not to say that critical commentary cannot be added or isnt in the sources, but that it needs to be in the article. Just because we reference the stamp why do we need to see it? What visual elements require us to display it? Or are we just using it to display a simi-relevant image to illustrate an otherwise lacking area of the article? From the paragraph that is currently in the article NFCC#8 isnt being met. NFCI#3 isnt a black check to use an image anywhere you want when referring to a work. Werieth (talk) 01:18, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- WP:NFCC #8. Contextual significance. "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increases reader’s understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.” --- Simply denigrating visual information conveyed in a stamp image is reductio ad absurdum, without force or logic. Visual information (image) of a visual medium (stamp design related to a commemoration or honorific) conveys understanding in a way written description does not, a picture is worth a thousand words.
- The article has critical commentary about the stamp commemorating the Virginia Ratifying Convention, notable enough for its own WP article, relative to the topic, History of Virginia on stamps, using both Arago (National Postal Museum) and Wallenstein (Cradle of America: four centuries of Virginia history) as sources. Why would you say it has zero? That is disingenuous at best.
- Virginia was important. Virginia was home to leaders supporting and opposing. Only after a promise for a Bill of Rights did Virginia narrowly ratify. Absent is any policy requirement in WP:NFCC #8 for a controversy involving the design of the stamp itself. In fact, were the commentary to be restricted to stamp design as you propose, then displaying it would not be permitted by WP:NFCI Guideline #3 "Stamps", which has been quoted in full here and repeatedly linked for reference. You may be thinking of something other than stamps policy. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:08, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Venue
There has been some question as to whether this [ie WP:MCQ where the discussion previously was] is the right venue. In my view this is a reasonable venue. What is under discussion here is not changing WP:NFC, but the correct application of WP:NFC in a particular case. That is an appropriate topic for a content discussion board, so there is no reason to shut this down.
Furthermore, it is not for Werieth, as a participant in the discussion with strongly held views, to shut it down. If done at all, that should be done by an uninvolved admin on petition from Werieth. It was also highly inappropriate to remove somebody else's comment on the question. I have therefore undone those edits. @Werieth: if you are unhappy about this, please take it to a neutral admin. Jheald (talk) 19:17, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- @Werieth:. I'm not going to edit war about it, but IMO Werieth your action, especially diff after what I had just posted above, was well out of order. Jheald (talk) 19:41, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Honestly I find the forum shopping and canvassing by the original poster uncalled for. Ensuring that this is at the proper venue (the policy/guideline in question) is the least I can due given those actions. Having a discussion about a policy on a different talk page and canvassing for support along with picking a venue that isnt watched by those who necessarily watch the policy is sneaky and an attempted run around policy. Werieth (talk) 19:54, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- No. There is a reason we have content boards -- indeed, why such boards were split away from here in the first place -- and that is to allow very detailed discussions of how the NFC criteria should properly be applied to particular items of content, without clogging up boards like this, which exist to discuss whether or how policy should be changed (or re-worded). The proper place for a discussion on a particular piece of content was not here. What is most likely to happen now is that the discussion is likely to sub-paged for manageability, and is likely to end up on even fewer watchlists than before your unilateral move. Jheald (talk) 20:26, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- The way the RFC is phrased begs a broad use of stamps, not just one page though certainly the page in question was what spawned the RFC. MCQ was certainly the wrong board (that is meant to run like the reference desk, not so much policy wonkery), and the or VPP would be the proper venue.--MASEM (t) 14:10, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- To the newly aspiring editor, there seems to be a thicket of WP projects and boards and panels and pumps, no one-stop shopping. But RfC somewhere seemed to be the best beginning.
- The way the RFC is phrased begs a broad use of stamps, not just one page though certainly the page in question was what spawned the RFC. MCQ was certainly the wrong board (that is meant to run like the reference desk, not so much policy wonkery), and the or VPP would be the proper venue.--MASEM (t) 14:10, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
- No. There is a reason we have content boards -- indeed, why such boards were split away from here in the first place -- and that is to allow very detailed discussions of how the NFC criteria should properly be applied to particular items of content, without clogging up boards like this, which exist to discuss whether or how policy should be changed (or re-worded). The proper place for a discussion on a particular piece of content was not here. What is most likely to happen now is that the discussion is likely to sub-paged for manageability, and is likely to end up on even fewer watchlists than before your unilateral move. Jheald (talk) 20:26, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Honestly I find the forum shopping and canvassing by the original poster uncalled for. Ensuring that this is at the proper venue (the policy/guideline in question) is the least I can due given those actions. Having a discussion about a policy on a different talk page and canvassing for support along with picking a venue that isnt watched by those who necessarily watch the policy is sneaky and an attempted run around policy. Werieth (talk) 19:54, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- When a month ago, an editor disrupted three articles without the courtesy of discussion, I found links to two venues and pled the case for twelve USPS template stamps with rudimentary description and commentary. Looking for an increased understanding in the face of unexplained edit-war attack, I was not able to recover fast enough, and stamps which one orphaned were quick-deleted by others. I lost the Julia de Burgos stamp which was first criticized as living person with free-use images available; she is dead, commemorated on a stamp and as a Puerto Rican born American, I thought appropriate to the 'Puerto Rico on stamps' article. My enhanced text for the poet was deemed satisfactory to keep the stamp by Masem after the fact.
- I value the WP community of collegial enterprise. Masem was able to help me with four with out-of-copyright art used in Civil War commemoratives in spite of rejecting seven others. This month's case of the Virginia Ratification Convention stamp has enhanced description and interpretive context based on 'third party sources' demonstrating their notability, --- an improved effort compared to my efforts a month ago. Any error in placing the RfC was made in good faith. I'd rather not an edit war as the starting point of the discussion. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 18:57, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
NFCI #3 specifically
I think it is probably useful to have a separate specific section to discuss our understanding of what it is that NFCI #3 actually says, and whether the present phrasing is correct and what it actually should say.
I summarised it above as follows:
- Specifically on the meaning of WP:NFCI #3, which says that it can be okay just to use a stamp "for identification" (i.e. simply to show what the stamp looks like). How should this be interpreted ? If for example a person X has been featured on a stamp, and that fact is mentioned in the article, is it okay to show what the stamp looked like, if the image is being used specifically in the context of the stamp, rather than as the main identification of person X at the top of the article ?
@Werieth: has written:
- NFCI#3 refers to the usage of a stamp on the article about the stamp (similar case to book covers and album cover art.) Not the general topical articles. Werieth (talk) 13:26, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
@TheVirginiaHistorian: has suggested that there must be:
- a) sourced description of the cultural-historical significance (i.e. of the item, or event, or the person, that is depicted -- presumably articles on the topic of particular individuals would almost always meet such a criterion -- JH); --- [because] this is what we would expect from an encyclopedia article versus a stamp gallery --- THEN optionally b) something about the postal usage (rate, printing, numbers); optionally c) something about the unique art of the stamp itself, such as the designer, etcher, or printer; optionally d) any literary controversy surrounding the stamp or its art. [...]. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 12:02, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
@King of Hearts: has suggested that
- If it's a one-liner mentioning the stamp, then probably not. But if there's a decently sized paragraph describing it, perhaps a non-free image is appropriate. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:08, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
For myself:
- It seems to me that, almost without exception I think, we almost always allow an NFC image of the title-object of an article to show what the object looks like (if no free image is likely to be achievable). That goes for paintings in copyright, for as-yet unbuilt buildings, even for news-agency photographs (which of all the NFC on WP we are probably rightly the most paranoid about) -- if it is the object itself that is the topic of the article. So why this special specific singling-out of stamps (and currency also), that use is appropriate "For identification of the stamp or currency, not the subjects depicted on it" ?
- I think it is because (or perhaps more accurately was because) stamps and currency, compared to other items at WP:NFCI, were identified as items where the copyright taking was particularly slight, and so as items whose use were particularly unlikely to create any issues for WP article re-use (commercially or non-commercially, domestically or worldwide). It's notable that the clause does not say "for identification of the stamp or currency as the title-topic of the article, nor "for critical commentary on the stamp or currency" -- either of which it could have said.
- So my strong suspicion is that as originally written, the clause was intended to say that use of the stamp "for identification of the stamp or currency", not necessarily in an article devoted to the stamp or currency, was okay; so long as the stamp was not in reality actually being used for identification of the non-stamp topic of the article. (If it adds to reader understanding to say that famous 18th century scientist X was depicted on a stamp (presumably having already established at length why he was such a notable character), it adds further to reader understanding to show how it was that the national postal agency chose to depict him
- And I think that that is still one way (and perhaps the most natural way) that the clause can reasonably be read today.
- The question (IMO) is: is such a reading still appropriate? Particularly after some users such as particularly eg @Ww2censor: have spent several years removing stamp images from all articles where stamps were not the primary topic of the article.
- Myself, I think it probably does add value to the reader in the context of an article on eg Gauss to show how Gauss was depicted on a banknote (or a stamp, if it had been a stamp), sufficient to balance the very slight copyright taking that such an inclusion would represent -- particularly if, per King of Hearts above, there were "a decently sized paragraph describing it" rather than a one-liner. But either way, I think the present text of WP:NFCI #3 could probably benefit from some useful clarification. Jheald (talk) 15:13, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- In the broad sense, there is no special case being made here. If a stamp is the topic of its own article, like Breast cancer research stamp, we'd likely not question the stamp's use. But I know you're specifically focusing on the stamp used within the body of the article.
- [10] this edit introduced the core of NFCI in August 2005. I'm having problems finding the actual discussion that that diff emphasizes (that's at the onset of the Fair Use policy), but the discussions I do find lump how stamps and currency would be treated as with cover art (see [11] or [12]). Note, however, this was all before it was "non-free" and still at "fair use", and which I agree that if there was a paragraph discussing the issuing of the stamp, then the use of the stamp image would be well within fair use law. Post NFC, I see [13], [14], [15] and probably more but this is minimal change to the original wording that was added. While there's no single bottom line from these discussions, it is clear that 1) the core language of NFCI#3 never really changed since it was first added in 2005, save for clarifying when it can be used, and 2) the past considerations were that the use of NFCC stamps in the body of the article not specifically about the stamp should be exception, equivalent to how to consider the use of a magazine cover about a person in the article about that person. Topical stamp articles are a bit of a different beast because we are talking "stamps" in general but also another topic entirely. --MASEM (t) 15:50, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Proposal: Split NFCC#8 into #8a and #8b
Simple enough proposal: Instead of "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.", I would suggest:
- #8: Contextual significance: Non-free content is used only
- #8a: If its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic
- AND
- #8b: Its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.
Too many people miss that #8 is a two prong test. --MASEM (t) 00:16, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- I don't really think that's the issue. The point people miss is that if the image is replaceable by text, it fails 8. People seem to view point 1 solely in terms of whether another image could replace it, and that isn't the point at all.—Kww(talk) 00:39, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think that's necessary; 8b implies 8a, i.e. it's a strictly stronger statement. Actually, if you think about it, its presence increases understanding if and only its omission decreases understanding. The only thing that keeps this from being a tautology is the degree; "detrimental" is a stronger word than "significantly increase." Perhaps emphasizing the omission part via other means would be effective, but we shouldn't have a criteria (8a) that will never be violated without another criteria (8b) being violated as well. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:22, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- They are two separate tests and have nothing to do with a tautology. I can prove nearly any image meets the first test without problem (visual aids nearly always help), but the second is when if we never had the image in the first if the reader would have a hard time understanding the topic. Two different logical thoughts need to go into this. I do agree that 8a is almost useless since if 8a fails, it also means independently 8b fails. --MASEM (t) 02:35, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- If 8a is almost useless, then 8b should be (reworded and) presented as the primary statement.—Aquegg (talk) 04:51, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- I say "almost useless", because I have not put a lot of thought of a case where #8a may fail but #8b may be met. I think #8a is important to point out that we don't add random imagery to an article, but this also technically fails #8b too. --MASEM (t) 05:23, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Let's try a single statement: "Non-free content is used only when its omission would significantly impair readers' understanding of the article topic." Do we need to say any more than this?—Aquegg (talk) 07:30, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- As I said, I think it should be possible but I can't yet dismiss if #8a could be not met while #8b could be. It is best to keep as two for the time being. (I know historically #8 started off with the #8a part language, while the omission part was added to provide the opposite extreme for inclusion. --MASEM (t) 14:56, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Let's try a single statement: "Non-free content is used only when its omission would significantly impair readers' understanding of the article topic." Do we need to say any more than this?—Aquegg (talk) 07:30, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- I say "almost useless", because I have not put a lot of thought of a case where #8a may fail but #8b may be met. I think #8a is important to point out that we don't add random imagery to an article, but this also technically fails #8b too. --MASEM (t) 05:23, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- If 8a is almost useless, then 8b should be (reworded and) presented as the primary statement.—Aquegg (talk) 04:51, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- They are two separate tests and have nothing to do with a tautology. I can prove nearly any image meets the first test without problem (visual aids nearly always help), but the second is when if we never had the image in the first if the reader would have a hard time understanding the topic. Two different logical thoughts need to go into this. I do agree that 8a is almost useless since if 8a fails, it also means independently 8b fails. --MASEM (t) 02:35, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose, per King of Hearts above. Masem's "Hard to understand without the image" is not what #8 says, and it's not what #8 means. #8 is supposed to focus discussion hard on what the image brings to the article, which can be made in all sorts of ways, to ask whether we believe it is significant enough to justify the degree of the copyright taking. If Masem genuinely believes that there are images which would have made a significant contribution to reader understanding, but have been removed because they don't satisfy his new test, then I would be grateful for a list so that such images can be sent for deletion review -- because if images genuinely do add something to reader understanding, that (per King of Hearts) readers are not getting without the images, then they absolutely ought to be included here. But I suspect any such list would be short, because I suspect images have been judged, as they should have been, for the contribution they make in the round. Jheald (talk) 07:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Let me go further. There are a slew of classes uncontroversially ruled okay by WP:NFCI "for identification", in view of what they bring to the article and the slightness of their copyright taking -- for example media cover art, stamps, logos, etc -- and WP:NFCI is not a closed list, merely a set of correct examples of the application of WP:NFC. In none of these cases is the article "hard to understand without the image", rather, we have them per King of Hearts: because the images are bringing something additional to understanding that is significant, that the article wouldn't convey without them. Jheald (talk) 08:03, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- To Masem's point about contextual significance, he seems to be conflating literary controversy per se with contextual significance. Let me use stamps as an example.
- Let me go further. There are a slew of classes uncontroversially ruled okay by WP:NFCI "for identification", in view of what they bring to the article and the slightness of their copyright taking -- for example media cover art, stamps, logos, etc -- and WP:NFCI is not a closed list, merely a set of correct examples of the application of WP:NFC. In none of these cases is the article "hard to understand without the image", rather, we have them per King of Hearts: because the images are bringing something additional to understanding that is significant, that the article wouldn't convey without them. Jheald (talk) 08:03, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- To meet the contextual significance criterion before admitting the stamp as an illustration, there MUST be a) sourced description of the cultural-historical significance; --- this is what we would expect from an encyclopedia article versus a stamp gallery --- THEN optionally --- b) something about the postal usage (rate, printing, numbers); optionally c) something about the unique art of the stamp itself, such as the designer, etcher, or printer; optionally d) any literary controversy surrounding the stamp or its art.
- There is no policy requirement for a literary controversy over the visual medium as the sole criteria before using the stamp as an illustration. There is only policy at WP:FREER, that including the image enables the reader to "identify an object" such as a coin "front and back are normally used". In the case of USPS nfc stamps, the reader cannot identify the stamp without seeing it. To identify a specific stamp, the front would be normally used unless the watermark were distinctive. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 12:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Jheald, it is not a new test. The working of NFCC#8 is nearly the same as it was since July 2007, specifically that the second part about omission was added via consensus discussion. Clearly this shows this is a separate consideration from the first part. And if you want a list of what's been deleted, pick a random FFD that closed "delete" and 9 times out of 10 they would have closed due to NFCC#8 problems. I've said over and over, you give me a random but relevant NFC image for a topic, and I can weasel out language to show how the reader's understanding of the topic is enhanced by its inclusions; that's nearly a non-test in considering many humans are visual learners. But is it required for reader's understanding? That's what the second test was put in place for, and a much more thoughtful and difficult question to answer. Note that NFCI cases are not "uncontroversially ruled okay", that you can just drop one in and say "done"; as the text there says, all NFCC criteria still apply to any NFCI cases so they can still be challenges. NFCI just represents common classes of images where NFC is often used.
- @Masem: I was quite specific in what I asked for: specific cases where NFC had been removed on the grounds that it was not 'required' to understand the text of the article, even though in your judgement addition of the image would have made a genuinely significant addition to reader understanding of the topic that could not be achieved in any other way. Because removal in such circumstances would IMO be shocking, and if you can provide any example of such a removal it ought to go straight to WP:DRV.
- If #8 was meant to say that an image was to be required for reader understanding, it would say so. But it doesn't; and such a reading would fly directly contrary to many of the example use-cases given at WP:NFCI -- including NFCI #1, the justification for which as you well know was considered at length, and confirmed, in the WT:NFC discussions cited on the policy pages.
- As to newness, the wording of NFCC #8 is not new, but your proposed re-interpretation would be -- as evident from its manifest incompatibility with many of the NFCI use-cases. Jheald (talk) 16:03, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Read where NFCC#8's rewording was discussed. It was clear they framed it around the "requirement" of the image for the article, specifically howcheng's comments, which stemmed out from [16] that spun out this version. --MASEM (t) 16:19, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- To add, in those discussions they make it clear how cover art for notable articles (NFCI#1) is meant to be covered in the new langauge but not to be used in discographies. --MASEM (t) 16:22, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- To add further, while an image can enhance a reader's understanding (making the connection faster, for example), if the removal (not omission) of the image simply removes that enhancement, making the reader spend a bit more time to read the text or click a link, that would fail NFCC#8, since that specifically talks about harm. Removal that removes the enhancement but doesn't affect the core experience is not harming the understanding. --MASEM (t) 16:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Jheald, it is not a new test. The working of NFCC#8 is nearly the same as it was since July 2007, specifically that the second part about omission was added via consensus discussion. Clearly this shows this is a separate consideration from the first part. And if you want a list of what's been deleted, pick a random FFD that closed "delete" and 9 times out of 10 they would have closed due to NFCC#8 problems. I've said over and over, you give me a random but relevant NFC image for a topic, and I can weasel out language to show how the reader's understanding of the topic is enhanced by its inclusions; that's nearly a non-test in considering many humans are visual learners. But is it required for reader's understanding? That's what the second test was put in place for, and a much more thoughtful and difficult question to answer. Note that NFCI cases are not "uncontroversially ruled okay", that you can just drop one in and say "done"; as the text there says, all NFCC criteria still apply to any NFCI cases so they can still be challenges. NFCI just represents common classes of images where NFC is often used.
- There is no policy requirement for a literary controversy over the visual medium as the sole criteria before using the stamp as an illustration. There is only policy at WP:FREER, that including the image enables the reader to "identify an object" such as a coin "front and back are normally used". In the case of USPS nfc stamps, the reader cannot identify the stamp without seeing it. To identify a specific stamp, the front would be normally used unless the watermark were distinctive. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 12:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Early July 2007 was a busy time. BetaCommandBot had just gone rampant, nominating vast amounts of material at incredible speed if it didn't have a written rationale (which arguably until that point hadn't necessarily been needed). There was a firestorm as to whether generic rationales could ever be appropriate (eventually cut through by @Wikidemon: introducing {{album cover fur}}, which established facts on the ground that they could). And, quite closely entwined with that, discussions over the proper requirement for #8. You've cited Howard Cheng's addition diff; but what to me is more germane is the reversal of that text for going too far, per DHowell and Wikidemo in this discussion, which deliberately struck out the words "It should be the case that if the article is lacking the image, it significantly impairs the reader's ability to understand the topic", and led to the present wording (12 July) diff, a mild underlining of the existing language, rather than Howcheng's proposal, which would have been very difficult.
- Believe me, I was there at the time. If @Howcheng:'s text had persisted (which, inter alia, would have forbidden generic templates like {{album cover fur}}), I would have fought against it tooth and nail. Instead we have Wikidemon's (IMO, then and now) very sane text, which says essentially: "Compare the article with and without the image, and ask: Is it worth it?" Jheald (talk) 17:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Which is why they compromised on what is the present line, using "omission", still keeping in mind about the concept of "required" images and considering the "harm" and not the lack of "enhancement" of understanding due to the missing image. That's why these are two very different tests and what I've described is the common practice at FFD. This is why we stress the need of critical commentary so that there is clear harm to understanding that commentary with omission of the image. And this has been practice for years, so saying "well, no, it should have been this" is far too late, you had time to address it. (Also to note, no, BetaCommand wasn't an issue at that point in 2007, it was close to and following the year-after date, March 2008, from the Foundation's resolution enaction date when Beta started to go off the rails and requiring intervention; we had problems with people complaining about the forced action of reviewing every non-free but that wasn't, at the time, due to Beta's mis-actions) --MASEM (t) 17:48, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- BCBot had suddenly, for the first time, tagged a massive number of images for deletion, in a completely unthrottled way -- far more than anyone could realistically fix by hand. That is why there was suddenly so much focus on whether you could have generic rationales for generic purposes -- and even whether there could be "generic purposes" at all, including a huge debate on a subpage of WP:AN. Which in turn led to edits like Howard Cheng's to NFCC #8 to try to establish that there couldn't -- images would have to be needed for the text to be understood at all. But it was volatile. The sheer quality of Wikidemo's {{album cover fur}}, as well as the reams written on the WP:AN subpage moved the debate forwards. What eventually prevailed was a text that excised the language about the images being "required" or "significantly impair[ing] the reader's ability to understand the topic", and instead was compatible with the long-standing guidance that is now located at WP:NFCI.
- I don't know what may or may not have been taking place more recently at FFD. But I say again, if you genuinely do think that there are images which have been removed on the grounds that, because there was no commentary, there was no harm to reader understanding of that (lack of) commentary; but which nevertheless you believe would have have made a genuinely significant addition to reader understanding of the topic, then please cite them, so we can take them to WP:DRV. A recent discussion that I do remember was WP:Non-free content review/Archive_22#File:FrankaNorthernSunComic.jpg, and that was kept. Jheald (talk) 18:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- BCBot was a agreed-upon mechanism to, within the year from the date of passage of the Foundation's resolution, bring about all 300,000-some non-free images at that time into basic compliance with NFCC#10a (citing the article that the image was used in). Nothing else. (It was after the fact that BetaCommand used the bot to try to enforce more than that). So, no, that wasn't the issue at the time. Yes, there were other discussions about generic rationales, but that was separate from Beta's bot work. And the text reflects more on the "required" nature of images, not what you are stating. It's clear what the original intentions were of NFCC#8 and they remain that way today. That is how it has been practiced at FFD for ages, and how admins have handled the matter (you'll notice this is why I don't do direct admin work on questionable NFC use to avoid being judge, jury, and executioner, but have been told I should be doing more).
- Here's the most recent closed FFD example of an image deleted solely on an NFCC#8 claim: [17], here's the next more recent. [18]. --MASEM (t) 19:14, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- BCBot's activities weren't a problem? Read the archive from the time, from one of the sub-pages, and from WP:AN itself. The reason that there "was an agreed upon mechanism" by 2008 was because that mechanism was thrashed out in 2007, in the face of an irresistable wave of deletions.
- The archives also reveal the huge contention that there was at the time about generic rationales.
- Howcheng's proposed change to NFCC #8, that would have prevented generic rationales, was backed out; leaving something much closer to the original form of NFCC #8 [19], where "specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text" was one way given in which an image might "contribute significantly to the article", but was not a requirement. Importantly, the text of NFCC #8 adopted was compatible with NFCI as it already existed -- it did not demand that the image be "required" to understand the text.
- Finally, what I'm asking for from you is not just any old deletion on an NFCC#8 claim, but a deletion on an NFCC#8 claim that was made on the basis that the image was not required to understand the text, even though you believe that it would have have made a genuinely significant addition to reader understanding of the topic. Preferably where there was some discussion, so that the policy framework presented was actually tested, but that is not essential. Jheald (talk) 20:21, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- BCBot - as a approved bot - wasn't the problem, it was the suddenly realization that most editors had to learn that NFC is a real thing that had to be enforced, and several uploaders with numerous problem images were finding their talk pages flooded with warnings. It was effectively a trial by fire for many. But that wasn't because BCBot was doing anything wrong, it was a symptom but not the cause.
- On NFCC#8 FFDs, if its nominated for NFCC#8, its always implicitly that the image isn't essential; rarity does the nominator state the language you put. If anything, go to NFCR and look for such discussions. --MASEM (t) 20:38, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- BCBot was blocked, then radically throttled. The consequences of how it was initially being operated were unacceptable.
- As for NFCC#8, it's you that is asserting that we should be requiring images to be "essential" to understand the text of the article, rather than making a significantly contribution to reader understanding, per policy; and it is you that is claiming that this is already being applied. So let's see an example of an image that you believe has been deleted for not being "essential" to understand the text of an article, that you believe would have have made a genuinely significant addition to reader understanding of the topic (per policy as written). Jheald (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- I've given you one, the South Park one. The image (A screenshot that I've copied from the deletion logs and put here for discussion [20]) was used on Scott Tenorman Must Die, a decent sized episode article, clearly shown to be notable. The image aids the reader's understanding that we see who Scott Tenorman is (the central redhair character), as well as the way that the members of the band Radiohead are depicted in SP style (the five people standing up behind them). This would clearly enhance the reader's understand to visually demonstrate some elements of the show in a way that using text only would make difficult. But there is zero discussion of these elements in the article that necessitate the visual. South Park has a unique show style described elsewhere so it doesn't take much for on, knowing whom the members of Radiohead are, to envision their transformation to South Park's style, nor is the character of Scott discussed in any way to require seeing what he looks like to under. The image enhances understanding but done not harm it with its omission, and ergo fails NFCC#8. --MASEM (t) 21:48, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Which is why they compromised on what is the present line, using "omission", still keeping in mind about the concept of "required" images and considering the "harm" and not the lack of "enhancement" of understanding due to the missing image. That's why these are two very different tests and what I've described is the common practice at FFD. This is why we stress the need of critical commentary so that there is clear harm to understanding that commentary with omission of the image. And this has been practice for years, so saying "well, no, it should have been this" is far too late, you had time to address it. (Also to note, no, BetaCommand wasn't an issue at that point in 2007, it was close to and following the year-after date, March 2008, from the Foundation's resolution enaction date when Beta started to go off the rails and requiring intervention; we had problems with people complaining about the forced action of reviewing every non-free but that wasn't, at the time, due to Beta's mis-actions) --MASEM (t) 17:48, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- There is no need to identify the stamp if the stamp is not notable. We do the same for album, books, and other works - we only allow images of these if they are notable, or if in the rare case the published work is not notable but the cover image is discussed. The reader can understand all the details about the issuing and reasons behind the issuing of a stamp without seeing it - their understanding is not harmed one iota by not seeing the stamp failing NFCC#8, just as they can understand the existance of a non-notable published worked without seeing the cover. This is why the second part of NFCC#8 exists to assure only required images , not helpful ones, are included (as described in the original buildout of NFCC#8). --MASEM (t) 14:56, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- The stamp is notable when it is issued to the public in the millions with significant visual information. Your previous characterization of a stamp as a scrap of paper with a monetary denomination sounds like a postage due stamp, without any distinctive art and absent any connection to cultural-historic significance.
- There is no need to identify the stamp if the stamp is not notable. We do the same for album, books, and other works - we only allow images of these if they are notable, or if in the rare case the published work is not notable but the cover image is discussed. The reader can understand all the details about the issuing and reasons behind the issuing of a stamp without seeing it - their understanding is not harmed one iota by not seeing the stamp failing NFCC#8, just as they can understand the existance of a non-notable published worked without seeing the cover. This is why the second part of NFCC#8 exists to assure only required images , not helpful ones, are included (as described in the original buildout of NFCC#8). --MASEM (t) 14:56, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- When the publicly issued stamp which is therefore notable, is commemorating an event resolved as important by a Congressional joint resolution, which is notable, is placed in historical context, it is notable. There is a need to identify visual information related to a visual topic with a visual representation. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 09:40, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Question Why do we actually need those two parts anyway? Why not just
- #8 Contextual significance: Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic
- If the NFC's presence satisfies this, then it is irrelevant whether a removal would be detrimental to readers understanding, as the latter is not possible without the former. -- Toshio Yamaguchi 13:24, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- No, this is absolutely not right. Note that the word in the second test is "omission", not "removal". This means the test is to consider that if the image was never present to begin with. It's a very different test and the one most NFC that are delete fails. It is nearly always possible to say that a relevant NFC image helps reader's understanding, hence why the second test is needed. --MASEM (t) 14:33, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- I don't really see the difference between "omission" and "removal". Either NFC does significantly increase a readers understanding or it doesn't. If it does, then per that logic a removal or omission (regardless which of the two) would be detrimental to readers understanding because the significant increase in understanding caused by the images presence doesn't happen or would be removed. The end result is the same: the significant increase in understanding isn't there. Why does it matter whether it isn't there or isn't there anymore? -- Toshio Yamaguchi 14:48, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- There is a big difference. Any random but relevant non-free image, I can describe as being helpful to the inclusion in the article. Once included, I can easily demonstrate removal would be harmful, for the same reasons to include. As such, if the second part read "removed" rather than "omission", it is creating an equivalent test, and that's clearly not the intent that was there when the phrase was added. "Omission" here means absent from the start; we have to envision the case that the reader never saw the image at any time, would they be able to understand the article in question? In other words, how essential or required is the image to understanding the text? It is the other bound of considering how helpful the image is. --MASEM (t) 15:02, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- "Omission" just means "not including". It might mean not including from the start, or it might mean adding and then no longer adding. There's no obvious reason to think it can only mean the first -- in fact linguitically here I would have thought the second reading is the more natural. Jheald (talk) 15:36, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's very different from "removing". (I know they weren't pulling any specific dictionary definition then, but omission is generally defined as "not doing" something, as opposed to "removing or deleting". --MASEM (t) 18:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Wiktionary: wikt:omission: 3. "something deleted or left out"; wikt:omit: "to leave out or exclude." Jheald (talk) 21:07, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Even if there might be a difference technically (in one case we are talking about not including an image in the first place, in the other case about removing an image that is already included) I don't see the need for such a distinction. NFC is either appropriate or it isn't. If it's appropriate it might be included, if it's not appropriate, it shouldn't be included. I have also never really seen the need for such a distinction in discussions at NFCR, for example. We are discussing the appropriateness of an image (whether it satisfies NFCC#8, i.e. whether its inclusion increases readers understanding and removal would harm readers understanding). NFCC#8 is subjective, so in most cases discussion needs to take place anyway. And I believe people will be adding images in violation of NFCC#8, regardless of whether this change is made or not, so discussion needs to take place in any case (unless we plan to start enforcing NFCC#8 without discussion, which is obviously possible per policy, but which I myself for example have been avoiding per the discussions we already had (that a single person cannot judge the appropriateness per NFCC#8 alone and enforce it single handed)). -- Toshio Yamaguchi 20:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- No, it's very different from "removing". (I know they weren't pulling any specific dictionary definition then, but omission is generally defined as "not doing" something, as opposed to "removing or deleting". --MASEM (t) 18:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- "Omission" just means "not including". It might mean not including from the start, or it might mean adding and then no longer adding. There's no obvious reason to think it can only mean the first -- in fact linguitically here I would have thought the second reading is the more natural. Jheald (talk) 15:36, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- There is a big difference. Any random but relevant non-free image, I can describe as being helpful to the inclusion in the article. Once included, I can easily demonstrate removal would be harmful, for the same reasons to include. As such, if the second part read "removed" rather than "omission", it is creating an equivalent test, and that's clearly not the intent that was there when the phrase was added. "Omission" here means absent from the start; we have to envision the case that the reader never saw the image at any time, would they be able to understand the article in question? In other words, how essential or required is the image to understanding the text? It is the other bound of considering how helpful the image is. --MASEM (t) 15:02, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- I don't really see the difference between "omission" and "removal". Either NFC does significantly increase a readers understanding or it doesn't. If it does, then per that logic a removal or omission (regardless which of the two) would be detrimental to readers understanding because the significant increase in understanding caused by the images presence doesn't happen or would be removed. The end result is the same: the significant increase in understanding isn't there. Why does it matter whether it isn't there or isn't there anymore? -- Toshio Yamaguchi 14:48, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- No, this is absolutely not right. Note that the word in the second test is "omission", not "removal". This means the test is to consider that if the image was never present to begin with. It's a very different test and the one most NFC that are delete fails. It is nearly always possible to say that a relevant NFC image helps reader's understanding, hence why the second test is needed. --MASEM (t) 14:33, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
I support removing it entirely. It's always been highly subjective. It is by far the most controversial part of NFCC, generating enormous problems for the project. Further, it's not mandated by the Foundation. Ok, yeah, it's a test to keep a lid on NFCC. However, it's a miserable test and does nothing to help the project. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- I think it is fairly clear that regardless of what the community concensus is those that "own" NFC will ensure consensus is thwarted. Saffron Blaze (talk) 13:37, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Please do not joke or troll this discussion. This is a very severe issue that people who don't understand the importance of the "free" part of "Wikipiece, the Free Encyclopedia" is, and NFCC#8 is a reasonably fair test to allow exceptional use of non-free where appropriate and allowed by the Foundation. Without it, there is no end to NFC inclusion and we basically fucked the Foundation's mission. --MASEM (t) 15:11, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- When do you plan on observing the fifth bullet point of WP:WIAPA policy? Simply because you do not like my opinion does not give you the right to belittle me and make accusations against me. I'm sorry you disagree with me. I really am. But, I will not be silenced by you. You proposed splitting #8 in two. Are you trolling for making such a proposal? Of course not. Neither am I for making a counter proposal. If you don't want people to make good faith counter proposals to your good faith proposals, then don't post them. If you seriously think that I am trolling, then I urge you, I even beg you to make a report to an appropriate noticeboard. Your behavior in attacking me here is not isolated. You obviously feel you have a case to make. So go make it. Regardless, I have asked you before to stop such behavior. If you can't see through to submitting a complaint to a noticeboard about me, then in the very least you can stop making accusations against me when I am involved in a discussion.
- As to the topic, I agree it is a serious issue. As I noted, WP:NFCC #8 is very arguably the most divisive NFCC issue we have. It is NOT working. It is a failed test that causes far, far more problems than it has ever solved. The test should be abolished because of the destruction it is causing to the project. Splitting a failed test in two will produce two failures. The whole test needs to be abolished. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:13, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Support rewriting or removing #8 altogether, as this highly subjective policy has been the cause of a lot of unneeded bickering, almost always initiated by the same couple of editors who seem to have appointed themselves wiki-cops over NFC and the Foundation. I would even advise that we have a special provision or waiver for USPS images as the USPS openly grants permission to use stamp images for educational purposes. For purposes of Wikipedia, these images should be considered Free Content. The idea of an NFC image causing "harm" to the Foundation when there is no free equivalent is ridiculous and I'm seeing the same long winded irrational conjecture being spouted here again to justify that opinionated stretch. Not only do we need reform or removal of #8 we need to have a wiki-counselor or some other higher up advise these self appointed wiki-cops to get a life and involve themselves in other areas of Wikipedia. I'm sorry about being so frank here, but at this late date I feel such commentary is warranted, as this has been going on for too long. As various edit histories will reveal the bulk of their time and effort show them trolling around making image deletions and hounding and arguing with other editors about images that in most cases are not causing anyone trouble or compromising anyone's interests. They are driving away editors. I too have stopped trying to use NFC stamp images because of all the needless grief associated with their usage here. Most of the trouble here is almost always initiated by the same couple of editors pushing their opinion on whether an image is "needed", or if the commentary is "sufficient". -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Given our goal is to make a free content encyclopedia, losing editors that do not have that interest in mind, or who want to use the images and do not spend the time to understand the nuances of copyright and why we have a NFC policy in place, is no lost to the larger picture. Using non-free without any considerations is harming the Foundation's goal and missions, and we don't need those people mis-contributing towards that. I've found most that are serious for participation will learn and understand and ask questions about proper NFC use rather than give up. --MASEM (t) 17:41, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- "...no lost to the larger picture..."?? Thanks for that revealing comment. Obviously you could care less about driving away other editors, contributors, most of whom did "ask questions" and debated points, but finally gave up when they were faced with your never ending and opinionated take on matters. You seem to think that by endlessly repeating yourself you can get over in these debates. Sorry, that's not working any more.
Using an NFC image when there is no free equivalent brings no "harm" to the foundation. There is no policy that outlines this idea specifically, or even comes close to expressing that idea. All we have is your distorted opinion about the "nuances of copyright", and the meaning of NFCC altogether. Kindly not regurgitate the same failed ideas roundly objected to and already addressed by other editors. You have and continue to fail to show how any "harm" comes to the Foundation when an NFC image is used when there is no free equivalent, still. All your long winded and repetitive conjecture doesn't hide that glaring reality. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:19, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- "...no lost to the larger picture..."?? Thanks for that revealing comment. Obviously you could care less about driving away other editors, contributors, most of whom did "ask questions" and debated points, but finally gave up when they were faced with your never ending and opinionated take on matters. You seem to think that by endlessly repeating yourself you can get over in these debates. Sorry, that's not working any more.
- (edit conflict) Gwillhickers, not sure what hallucinogens you are smoking, but there are several examples of where using non-free media harmed the project's mission, Jimbo cited a case where a photographer was attempting to upload free pictures of basketball players and was refused because we had "better" versions that where non-free. Werieth (talk) 18:30, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- My experience are those serious newbies that want to contribute will ask the right questions about copyright, and learn about NFC. Those that are here to say "I must get this picture on WP and I don't care how" are not the contributors we want. And the harm is to the Foundation's reputation and mission. By promoting the idea that they are developing a free content work, frivolous use of non-free (even if it falls squarely in fair use provisions) is hypocritical and paints the Foundation and the project in a negative light. It also harms the ability of downstream reusers of the content, particularly in countries where there are more restrictive and/or no fair use provisions. So there is harm but it is on the opposite side of the picture from what most people think of, that being the copyright owners. (Again, I've pointed to VEGAN, it's remains perfectly applicable here) --MASEM (t) 18:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- The interesting thing about WP:VEGAN is that it's actually arguing against the NFC policy, rather than in favour of it. According to WP:VEGAN there is no point in trying to be "more vegan" in the way you are advocating. The thesis of that essay is that such an idea is incoherent and pointless -- according to WP:VEGAN, vegan is something you (and your lunch) either are, or are not. According to WP:VEGAN there should be no NFC policy because there should be no NFC at all. But that is not and has not been the view of the en-wiki community.
- @Gwillhickers: NFC can potentially harm Wikipedia, (as I set out when I asked Jimbo for a steer on the pound coins article, here; in some ways a rather similar case) -- if there's legal risk, or damage to our reputation, or damage to our content re-usability, or damage to the prospects of actually free media being uploaded. (Though @Werieth: to be fair to Gwillhickers, he did actually specifically excluded that last possibility, specifically only addressing his remarks to the case "when there is no free equivalent")
- But I do think Gwillhickers has a point here. There is no danger to our article reusability for these stamps, given the waiver that USPS grants for educational use. Even without which, the images would be considered legitimate for review in every country that's signature to the Berne Convention. So there really is no impact on reusability here; nor are the images replaceable; nor would the images be being used frivolously, so I really don't see even any remote danger to WP's reputation here. Jheald (talk) 18:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- VEGAN is pointing out the harm that if we say "this is a vegetarian pot luck" and everyone brings something non-vegetarian without checking with one another, the entire idea of the vegetarian pot-luck is ruined. NFC allows for some exceptions but not with the reasoning "oh, allowing this won't harm the free content mission, its just a little bit". There has to be strong balance on the educational/encyclopedic aspects to make the strong case for the exemption and not the slow slippage that VEGAN warns about. And yes, there is still damage with the stamps because we are considering all reuses, not just educational; commercial educators would not be able to use these pages, for example. And yes, there are replacements for the stamp images, that is zero images and using text and links to explain they exist. That is a completely valid allowance. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- You're right. Commercial reusers can't rely on the USPS waiver. On the other hand, they can rely on the Berne Convention and U.S. Fair Use law. The point about stamp images, used in the contexts we're talking about, is that we're completely solidly confident that such fair use would be upheld in the context of one of our articles, whether or not the reuser was commercial.
- With respect to replacement, the issue of real concern is any inhibition of fully-free alternative media being brought forward, which would be a real loss; the inhibition of a less integrated, less self-contained, less easy-to-integrate-in-one-go text and links only alternative is less of a concern, because why should we want such a thing, if we are confident that the original page is going to be fully reusable?
- Finally, re WP:VEGAN, WP:VEGAN is not warning about "slow slippage", WP:VEGAN is warning about the presence of non-"German" NFC at all. But the view of en-wiki is we don't want a completely "vegan" encyclopedia - we don't see value in it, simply as a dogmatic position for its own sake. Jheald (talk) 20:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Making others rely on Berne or their local fair use basically makes the free content approach laughable. Some places cannot rely on fair use at all. That's why every inclusion of non-free hurts the encyclopedia's value. At the same time, if the academic inclusion of the non-free is clearly required and important, then the value that adds to the encyclopedia outweighs the harm. That's the balance we have to play with, and that's why it's important to look for "required" and "essential" images that if they were omitted we would be harming the reader's understanding, clearly showing the value added. That's the point about VEGAN that's important - it's not about the tainting of the free project NFC (a better analogy for that would be a drop of benzene in a train-tanker full of potable water making the entire water non-potable), but the slippage of non-free inclusion concerns without remembering our larger purpose. --MASEM (t) 22:01, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- VEGAN is pointing out the harm that if we say "this is a vegetarian pot luck" and everyone brings something non-vegetarian without checking with one another, the entire idea of the vegetarian pot-luck is ruined. NFC allows for some exceptions but not with the reasoning "oh, allowing this won't harm the free content mission, its just a little bit". There has to be strong balance on the educational/encyclopedic aspects to make the strong case for the exemption and not the slow slippage that VEGAN warns about. And yes, there is still damage with the stamps because we are considering all reuses, not just educational; commercial educators would not be able to use these pages, for example. And yes, there are replacements for the stamp images, that is zero images and using text and links to explain they exist. That is a completely valid allowance. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- My experience are those serious newbies that want to contribute will ask the right questions about copyright, and learn about NFC. Those that are here to say "I must get this picture on WP and I don't care how" are not the contributors we want. And the harm is to the Foundation's reputation and mission. By promoting the idea that they are developing a free content work, frivolous use of non-free (even if it falls squarely in fair use provisions) is hypocritical and paints the Foundation and the project in a negative light. It also harms the ability of downstream reusers of the content, particularly in countries where there are more restrictive and/or no fair use provisions. So there is harm but it is on the opposite side of the picture from what most people think of, that being the copyright owners. (Again, I've pointed to VEGAN, it's remains perfectly applicable here) --MASEM (t) 18:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
So what? We force re-users to deal with all kinds of complicated issues like personality rights and trademark law... so why not fair use? BTW, who is this "we" Masem keeps referring? I get it's a royal kind of we, but who is it exactly? Saffron Blaze (talk) 22:36, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- When I use "we" in discussions like this, unless otherwise, I am implying every editor of Wikipedia. "We" all have to do our part to maintain NFC under the Foundation's guidance, for example, though only a very small subset are very active in it. --MASEM (t) 22:56, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Isn't that a bit presumptuous given we don't agree with you all the time? Regardless, why should we be so careful about NFC when the rest of the world seems to be able to handle it well enough? On second thought, don't answer that. I have read your comments on this matter before and found the arguments lacking and rather dogmatic. Saffron Blaze (talk) 01:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Because the Foundation requires us to. You are on their playground and thus must work under their rules. You're not required to edit here if you don't agree with the free content mission - in fact you can duplicate the playground and run it the way you want elsewhere, but on this playground owned and operated by the Foundation, we have to go by what they want, and that is encouraging free content and minimizing non-free content. --MASEM (t) 02:02, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Isn't that a bit presumptuous given we don't agree with you all the time? Regardless, why should we be so careful about NFC when the rest of the world seems to be able to handle it well enough? On second thought, don't answer that. I have read your comments on this matter before and found the arguments lacking and rather dogmatic. Saffron Blaze (talk) 01:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Proposal: Split NFCC#8 into #8a and #8b (2)
- Werieth it seems you have things backwards. In your sappy reply to me you said, "Jimbo cited a case where a photographer was attempting to upload free pictures of basketball players and was refused because we had "better" versions that where non-free." Don't you mean the photographer tried to upload 'non free' images and was refused because there was 'free equivalents'? Isn't the concern about using free images instead of NFC images whenever possible?? Pew! And you were wondering if I was smoking something. Once again, the focus of this debate is over using USPS NFC images when there is no free equivalent. So again, please stop trying to confuse the issue. At this (very) late date, both you and your partner have still failed to point out how using an NFC image when there is no free equivalent "harms" the foundation. Now please review the title to this section, and try to stay on track. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:28, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Masem, your vegetarian analogy has already been show to be an 'apples and oranges' analogy. Comparing a vegan diet to image use here at Wikipedia is a poor attempt at rationalization. A vegan diet does not allow for any meat or meat by-products, where as Wikipedia allows for NFC usage. Please stop repeating the same failed arguments. And once again, the USPS grants permission. No, this is not a license to ignore NFCC entirely, so don't try that angle again. It is cited only to point out that no one's interests are compromised, so all this fuss is rather pointless and unproductive as no one is "harmed" by using an NFC image when there is no free equivalent. Once again, you have failed to cite actual policy where an NFC image "harms" the foundation, esp when there is no free equivalent, as is the case for all post 1978 USPS images. Please link us to and/or quote the policy that says using an NFC image when there is no free equivalent "harms" the Foundation. If you can't do this then we can only conclude that this is all an opinionated rant to protect your turf and maintain your assumed authority over it. Easy to see Masem. This is not a video game where you have unlimited lives to fart around with. Present your arguments and when they fail don't go on assuming you can get another life and repeat the same unresponsive nonsense all over again. Thanks. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:28, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- No, I wasnt mistaken the issue was we had non-free images in place, and a friend of jimbo was trying to donate free files but was repeatedly reverted because the users thought that the professional non-free files where of better quality than those being donated. (I havent researched the case Im taking Jimbo at his word.) The RFC isnt about USPS stamps its about wide general usage of stamps regardless of the source. Werieth (talk) 22:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Rrrright. We're discussing cases of NFC images being replaced with free content, so your story doesn't even pertain to begin with. Post 1978 USPS stamp images can't be replaced by free content for the simple reason that they don't exist. There is no "better quality" images to begin with. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:16, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- I completely disagree that VEGAN can be written off. It is used frequently to show how NFCC is a balancing act to prevent dilution of the free content mission while still serving the goal of being an encyclopedia. If we don't balance that and allow NFC use without any reason, we are wrecking the Foundation's mission. That is the harm -- we hurt the Foundation by trivializing their goal by aiming towards a free content - minimum non-free content - work. It's not financial, it's not legal, it's not civil, but it is something of value that we shouldn't at all be toying around with, given that they are the ones paying for the servers we use here. Your argument show very little respect for this. Remember, this is still a grand experiment to try to develop a free content encyclopedia, and we can do so much better than what we have now to meet that, recognizing that we can't outright remove all NFC and make this still a useable encyclopedia. We have to be so much more careful than most people arguing against NFC's current rules seem to want. Too many "I like it"-type arguments. We have to stay to the hard lines and remove and reject non-free uses that do not aid greatly in the academic purpose, which still leaves a lot of room for good NFC use, but gets rid of edge cases like these stamp images that have yet to be shown critically important to an encyclopedia. --MASEM (t) 23:04, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- You're simply reiterating the same failed idea. NFC images do not "harm" the foundation, esp in cases where an NFC image can not be replaced with a free image. Quite to the contrary, NFC images can help the Foundation when it can't provide a free image, esp in cases involving USPS NFC images. The idea of the Foundation being "trivialized" is your notion, an opinion. I see the glass of water half full, not half empty. Again, USPS images can not be replaced by free content images -- so how is there any "harm" or "trivialization" to the Foundation occurring? Our first concern should be building an encyclopedia. Where we happen to get our pictures from is a trivial matter in cases where there is no legal considerations and where no one's interest are compromised. You've made a religion out of the Foundation and now it's getting in the way of Wikipedia and the many editors trying to contribute -- all because of your notions of "harm" and "trivialization" to the Foundation. This is getting ridiculous -- and kindly don't accuse me of not having respect for matters because I don't go along with this nonsense. Thank you. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:16, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- "No image" (read: text) is a free replacement for a non-free image, if it serves the same educational purpose and no free image exists. And your comments show zero respect for the efforts that the Foundation has set out to do. --MASEM (t) 01:30, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yet another one of your disjointed opinions. No harm is effected to any entity or person when a NFC image is used when there's no free image to substitute for, and you have failed to cite policy to support this notion or even explain otherwise, still. Respect? Pardon me while I hold out for a second opinion. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:24, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- [21] was written by the people at FA for non-free evaluation, and I point to their section on NFCC#1: "After reading an image's purpose, as articulated by its rationale, reviewers should consider whether an equivalent "free" image exists or could reasonably be made to exist that could instead "serve the encyclopedic purpose". Alternatively, reviewers should consider whether prose could fulfill the purpose. " So no, I'm not pulling this out of my ass, this is practice at the top level of WP. --MASEM (t) 04:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- (ec) You are asking the wrong question. It doesn't matter whether there is any "harm" suffered. We either have principles or we do not. Our ideal is to be the free encyclopedia, and although recognize that we will never be 100% free to use by anyone for any reason, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be as free as we possibly can. That's the reasoning behind this NFCC criterion. We're not going to say no to non-free content, but you need to show us that it's absolutely necessary. —howcheng {chat} 05:15, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yet another one of your disjointed opinions. No harm is effected to any entity or person when a NFC image is used when there's no free image to substitute for, and you have failed to cite policy to support this notion or even explain otherwise, still. Respect? Pardon me while I hold out for a second opinion. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:24, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
The USPS license used by WP explains the NFC use in the United States on WP, and warns the same educational use may not be lawful elsewhere, or even at WP if it is used for the stamp image, not the stamp itself.
Use of the stamp as visual information is necessary when the contextual significance criterion is met before admitting the stamp as an illustration, there MUST be a) sourced description of the cultural-historical significance; --- this is what we would expect from an encyclopedia article versus a stamp gallery --- THEN optionally --- b) postal usage (rate, printing, numbers); optionally c) the unique art of the stamp itself, such as the designer, etcher, or printer; optionally d) any literary controversy surrounding the stamp or its art.
The idea that all visual information in art articles since 1978 must be suppressed is as untenable as saying all visual information in stamp articles must be suppressed since 1978. The USPS license explains the educational usage on the United States servers used in the U.S. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)