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:::::::::YLet's call that opinion* for clarity. So we say that the opinion* of Brahe was the [[Tychonic system]], and the opinion* of Galileo was [[heliocentrism]]. Brahe's opinion* was false, Galileo's opinion* was true. Is Galileo's opinion* considered an "opinion" for the purposes of NPOV? Of course not, it's a fact. Why? Not because it doesn't fit the meaning of opinion* (since it does), but because our reliable sources overwhelmingly affirm that viewpoint. Were I rightly to improve the [[opinion]] article to reflect this, would then the meaning of "opinion" in WP:NPOV change? Of course not, because it's meaning has nothing to do with how the article defines it. --<font face="georgia">[[User:Atethnekos|Atethnekos]] </font><font face="georgia" size="1">([[User talk:Atethnekos|Discussion]], [[Special:Contributions/Atethnekos|Contributions]])</font> 00:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC) |
:::::::::YLet's call that opinion* for clarity. So we say that the opinion* of Brahe was the [[Tychonic system]], and the opinion* of Galileo was [[heliocentrism]]. Brahe's opinion* was false, Galileo's opinion* was true. Is Galileo's opinion* considered an "opinion" for the purposes of NPOV? Of course not, it's a fact. Why? Not because it doesn't fit the meaning of opinion* (since it does), but because our reliable sources overwhelmingly affirm that viewpoint. Were I rightly to improve the [[opinion]] article to reflect this, would then the meaning of "opinion" in WP:NPOV change? Of course not, because it's meaning has nothing to do with how the article defines it. --<font face="georgia">[[User:Atethnekos|Atethnekos]] </font><font face="georgia" size="1">([[User talk:Atethnekos|Discussion]], [[Special:Contributions/Atethnekos|Contributions]])</font> 00:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::::I don't want to get into [[Evolution as fact and theory]] debate or that half the population has a different viewpoint (opinion) on origins - it's a disputed topic, which I concede would be a poor example here. I can't say I agree with your interpretation of definition. Perhaps it's something to bring forward as clarification in the NPOV policy - to define it, maybe include as a footnote. While I find it a weakened example of such a commonly accept concept, I'd compromise and agree to remove "a viewpoint" and just say "When a statement is an opinion (e.g. a matter which is subject to dispute or an interpretation of fact), ...". [[User:Morphh|<span style="color:green">Morphh</span>]] <sup>[[user talk:Morphh|<span style="color:chocolate">(talk)</span>]]</sup> <small><i>01:19, 18 April 2014 (UTC)</i></small> |
::::::::::I don't want to get into [[Evolution as fact and theory]] debate or that half the population has a different viewpoint (opinion) on origins - it's a disputed topic, which I concede would be a poor example here. I can't say I agree with your interpretation of definition. Perhaps it's something to bring forward as clarification in the NPOV policy - to define it, maybe include as a footnote. While I find it a weakened example of such a commonly accept concept, I'd compromise and agree to remove "a viewpoint" and just say "When a statement is an opinion (e.g. a matter which is subject to dispute or an interpretation of fact), ...". [[User:Morphh|<span style="color:green">Morphh</span>]] <sup>[[user talk:Morphh|<span style="color:chocolate">(talk)</span>]]</sup> <small><i>01:19, 18 April 2014 (UTC)</i></small> |
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::::::::::{{ping|NewsAndEventsGuy}}, {{ping|SMALLJIM}}, {{ping|Dezastru}}, {{ping|North8000}} perhaps you can offer your thoughts up to this point and if any of the recent suggestions would improve the FAQ. [[User:Morphh|<span style="color:green">Morphh</span>]] <sup>[[user talk:Morphh|<span style="color:chocolate">(talk)</span>]]</sup> <small><i>01:31, 18 April 2014 (UTC)</i></small> |
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== Proposal: revision of section on Impartial Tone == |
== Proposal: revision of section on Impartial Tone == |
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Due and undue weight - bringing in line with what Jimbo said about prominence of adherents
I just made a short addition,[1] to the sentence following the Jimbo quote in the section on Due weight. The Jimbo quote has, "If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents". In order to reflect this, I inserted into sentence following:
... in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources and the eminence of its adherents, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public.
I think this change also makes sense from an editing standpoint. For example, if the Center for Disease Control makes a statement about a disease, this view should be given more weight than the view of a single relatively unknown doctor, even if both views have been equally reported on by the press.
So, soliciting comments, how do people feel about this change? LK (talk) 06:21, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- I like this change. When talking about viewpoints held by the minority/majority, do we consider the viewpoints worldwide? There are a number of examples where the majority in one culture have one viewpoint and the majority in another culture have a different viewpoint. Is the English Wikipedia to have global or "English-speaking" scope? AuburnMagnolia (talk) 00:28, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- Neither... Wikipedia is culturally NEUTRAL in scope. If one culture has a given viewpoint, and another has a different viewpoint, we would weigh them NEUTRALLY... looking into who says what, and assigning them weight exactly the same way that we would assign weight to two different viewpoints within the same culture. We can not predetermine the outcome of that assessment to favor English-speaking over non-English speaking (or vise versa). Every weight assessment is unique. In one article it will be appropriate for us to give more weight to a "non-English speaking" POV (and less weight to an "English-speaking" POV)... while in some other article the reverse will be true. Blueboar (talk) 18:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about this. "Prominent" and "eminent" are not synonyms. Eminence implies positive recognition. Prominence is non-judgmental. And what if someone is "eminent" for one thing, but makes a claim about something else? Kary Mullis is an "eminent" biochemist; he won a Nobel prize for it. He's a "prominent" AIDS denialist who says he once spoke to a glowing green raccoon and says that taking LSD in college was more important than any class he ever took. You would not want to give his views extra weight merely because his views outside of his narrow field of expertise happen to stick out like a sore thumb. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- Would you be in favor of the change if it stated "eminence (in the relevant field) of its adherents"? As you point out, "prominence of its adherents" could be taken to include people famous for their kooky ideas, which I assume you are against? LK (talk) 05:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Agreeing....I think that when assigning weights, any definition of a metric absolutely MUST be stated to be in the context of the topic at hand. Without that, if Britney Spears managed to comment on competing particle physics theories, her opinion would outweigh all others. North8000 (talk) 12:15, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't disagree, but I do have to raise a caveat... context is a tricky thing... in some contexts it is appropriate to give the "prominence" of non-experts some degree of weight. The fact that Britney Spears is a "prominent" pop star would certainly be a factor in an article on Particle physics in pop culture (in that context we would give Britney's comment on particle physics more weight than a comment made by a lesser known pop star) ... or (to give a more realistic example) the views of a "prominent" US Senator should be given a fair amount of weight in an article (or section) on Global Warming in US politics... even though the Senator may not be an "eminent" climatologist. (Or, to view it from another angle, while the Senator is not "eminent" in the context of Climatology... he is "eminent" in the context of US Politics, and thus should be given appropriate weight.) Blueboar (talk) 14:41, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- As the person who reverted Lawrencekhoo, I believe that we are better off without implementing his suggested proposals if people are going to be interpreting them so differently. We have enough to worry about with people interpreting WP:Due weight differently than what is clearly stated on the policy page already. Not to mention that not every topic has experts for it, at least not experts in the sense that it's their profession. Flyer22 (talk) 16:42, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't disagree, but I do have to raise a caveat... context is a tricky thing... in some contexts it is appropriate to give the "prominence" of non-experts some degree of weight. The fact that Britney Spears is a "prominent" pop star would certainly be a factor in an article on Particle physics in pop culture (in that context we would give Britney's comment on particle physics more weight than a comment made by a lesser known pop star) ... or (to give a more realistic example) the views of a "prominent" US Senator should be given a fair amount of weight in an article (or section) on Global Warming in US politics... even though the Senator may not be an "eminent" climatologist. (Or, to view it from another angle, while the Senator is not "eminent" in the context of Climatology... he is "eminent" in the context of US Politics, and thus should be given appropriate weight.) Blueboar (talk) 14:41, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Another problem with "eminence" or "prominence," "adherents" and "experts" with regard to this matter is WP:Fringe. Adherents and/or experts can have WP:Fringe views, such as views that are outside of what society generally considers normal. For example, what Wiccans believe should not always be given more weight than what sociologists or religion experts state on that topic. And what about groups such as NAMBLA, who push for adult-child sexual activity? Just how much weight should we give them? Not much, from what I know; it's them against what the vast majority of researchers and the general society say, but they have their own research and consider themselves experts on those matters. Flyer22 (talk) 17:16, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- How much weight to give "adherents" depends on the specific topic of the article. In an article about a specific fringe theory (and especially in an article about a fringe organization) it is appropriate to give the views of its adherents a lot more weight than we would give them in other articles... because those views are directly relevant to the topic of the article. And... within that article about a fringe theory, we also need to weigh the views of various adherents against each other... giving more weight to prominent adherents, and less-to-no weight to non-prominent adherents. It's kind of difficult to write a neutral and balanced article about the rise of the Nazi Party in pre-war Germany, without mentioning what the Nazis believed. Blueboar (talk) 19:21, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Well, I kind of liked "as opposed to the general public," The general public is generally misinformed considerably by what tv station s/he watches which often "pushes" a pov, which may turn out to be "incorrect", "misinformed", or just merely pov-pushing. But in for a penny, in for a pound. Without the one, why add the other?
- And while we are on the topic (per WhatamIdoing), double Nobel Prize-winner Linus Pauling "pushed" vitamin C as a sort of a cure-all, prevent-all. And him a biologist! This suggestion is pretty much dismissed by the medical community. I concede that this may be eminently more sensible that conversing with "glowing green things", however! :) Student7 (talk) 20:43, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
- Another problem with "eminence" or "prominence," "adherents" and "experts" with regard to this matter is WP:Fringe. Adherents and/or experts can have WP:Fringe views, such as views that are outside of what society generally considers normal. For example, what Wiccans believe should not always be given more weight than what sociologists or religion experts state on that topic. And what about groups such as NAMBLA, who push for adult-child sexual activity? Just how much weight should we give them? Not much, from what I know; it's them against what the vast majority of researchers and the general society say, but they have their own research and consider themselves experts on those matters. Flyer22 (talk) 17:16, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- This is fast devolving in to "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" Pauling received Nobel prizes in chemistry and peace, not medicine, and fringe is fringe is fringe. — Robert Greer (talk) 23:00, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
- The way I'm reading this, is that people don't disagree with the principle per se, they're just afraid that people may wiki-lawyer it to mean something it doesn't. Well, this is true of all policy, so I'm not seeing any substantive arguments against. LK (talk) 05:48, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia policies and guidelines are generally straightforward/clear, despite the occasional (or more than occasional) person misinterpreting them. Your proposals are not too clear in meaning, and we don't need any more misuse of WP:Neutral than we already have. Flyer22 (talk) 00:45, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
- The way I'm reading this, is that people don't disagree with the principle per se, they're just afraid that people may wiki-lawyer it to mean something it doesn't. Well, this is true of all policy, so I'm not seeing any substantive arguments against. LK (talk) 05:48, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Straw poll
I think it's time to call for a straw poll to clarify consensus. Who agrees or disagrees with the following addition? (Please note in comments if you would agree to a modified version.)
... in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources and the eminence (in the relevant field) of its adherents, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public.
- Agree as proposer. Without this, people may just count the number of sources reporting a view, rather than also considering the reliability of the person espousing the view (e.g. there may be as many articles on Jenny McCarthy's and the CDC's views on Autism and vaccinations, but we should not treat them equally.) --LK (talk) 05:11, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
- Concern - What concerns me is that the proposed addition omits is any reference to article context... and context impacts what is and is not considered a "relevant field". For example, in the context of our article on the various Moon landing conspiracy theories a particular fringe theorist could well be considered "eminent" in a relevant field (the field of "moon landing conspiracy"). However, in the context of our Apollo program article, that same theorist would not in any way be considered "eminent" in a relevant field. Blueboar (talk) 17:11, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
- addendum... thinking on it further... is there anyone who would be considered "eminent in the relevant field" for our article on Big Foot? What about Pokemon? Blueboar (talk) 19:43, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
- This is the key flaw. Bigfoot-proponent-editors will only consider eminent experts on Bigfoot as "relevant". They will battle to remove all sentences backed up by anybody not published in the Journal Of Bigfoot Believers. And of course, simultaneously, bigfoot-debunking-editors will only consider eminent debunkers of Bigfoot as "relevant". They will simultaneously battle to remove all sentences backed up by anybody not in the Journal Of Bigfoot Debunkers. Similarly with deists versus atheists, repubs versus dems, and every single discretionary-sanctions article. We already have enough battleground articles, where people try to war away the wikiReliable Sources they disagree with. This addition will expand those wars exponentially. We cannot let wikipedian editors be in charge of deciding which sources are "reliable" about a given topic; either the publisher is a fact-checked editorial publication, or a refereed academic publication, or it isn't. WP:SPS is a *positive* exception, which allows attributed sentences to relevant experts to *count* as wikiReliable... adding the idea that "eminence" in the "relevant" field can trump otherwise perfectly wikiReliable Sources, is a *negative* exception which can only lead to deleting sourced material. Bad. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 10:39, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
- addendum... thinking on it further... is there anyone who would be considered "eminent in the relevant field" for our article on Big Foot? What about Pokemon? Blueboar (talk) 19:43, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
- Agree. Though Blueboar has made a valid point IMO. I think, overall, the language is improved. Is it "perfect?" Maybe just "better." Even more than Blueboar, what about public opinion type subject. Next year, for example, trying to "measure" how good Obamacare is. There is the public perception which can't be completely ignored, and the weight of RS which may say that babies have a higher/lower survival which may be connected to Obamacare. So we have a supposed "political perception", measured, as always, very promptly by polls, and the reality, which dribbles in much more slowly, which measures actual facts and (a long time later) is able to statistically prove that one factor caused another. Student7 (talk) 15:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
- Disagree. Three problems:
- The obvious one mentioned by others about the use of the concept of "eminence". It's not the same as "prominence", the concept used by Jimbo.
- We shouldn't pay any attention to the presumed status of the people advancing the viewpoints anyway. To determine due weight we just analyse the relative prevalence of the viewpoints in the reliable sources that contain them. In difficult cases we also consider the relative reliability of the sources, along the lines of the categorisation in WP:IRS and WP:GEVAL. To also consider the status of the proponents as a weighting factor would be a major change – it seems always to have been avoided in the wording of the policy; for good reason, I think.
- This isn't the right place for such a change either. LK wants to make the sentence in question reflect a Jimbo quote just above. But the sentence has nothing to do with Jimbo's three bullet points just above it. It was added in 2008 by User:Raymond Arritt in this edit, following the first few postings of this discussion. As that discussion shows, its placing here is coincidental. Today, after the addition of the footnote to the first sentence of the section, evidently for clarification, by WhatamIdoing in this edit in Nov '12, this sentence just reiterates what is stated there.
- So if there should be any addition at all (though I don't think there should) it can't be tucked away down here, but must appear where the statement that it amends first appears: in the first sentence of the section.
- It seems that the only point of this sentence now is to act as a reminder to those who haven't been reading carefully. As an alternative proposal, I suggest we remove it and upgrade WhatamIdoing's footnote to the first sentence into the main text.
- —SMALLJIM 17:34, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem with reminding readers who haven't been reading carefully (it's an important enough point that a reminder seems worthwhile). My concern that the proposed addition changes the meaning of that reminder. Blueboar (talk) 18:07, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
- What is your issue with eminence vs prominence? According to Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, an eminent person is someone who is prominent, so they are effectively synonyms. The reason why I think LK's suggestion is good is that it avoids the situation where editors simply "count up sources" in journals to determine consensus. That's a very bad idea. Why? Researchers, companies, professional organizations, etc. are often trying to push a particular viewpoint. They will commission dozens of studies all showing the same thing and get them all published. That doesn't mean that the viewpoint is any more mainstream, but there are sure a lot of "reliable, secondary" sources showing that viewpoint. If we just count up all the studies, it will look like there is lots of support for that point of view, when there isn't, really. If we are allowed to give more weight to what the eminent and/or prominent sources say, we'll be better off. It is important to make this clear in the policy so the editors have the best guidance possible. AuburnMagnolia (talk) 03:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think the definitions are worth arguing about here – this small-scale discussion has already shown that there's no agreement about the exact meaning of "eminent", and we shouldn't use ambiguous terms in our policies.
- Regarding your concern about "counting up sources", we do already give greater weight to the more reliable sources (what you call "the eminent and/or prominent sources") per the Identifying reliable sources guideline which says the better sources are peer-reviewed, come from a reputable publisher, are written by authors regarded as "authoritative" in the relevant context, etc. But that's not at all the same as LK's proposal of boosting just one element: "the eminence (in the relevant field) of its adherents" to the level of policy.
- This policy has to provide help for the whole range of possible disputes, so even though a certain form of wording might be useful in a particular field (such as medicine, which I think is your area of interest), if it would be useless or detrimental in another (Blueboar's Bigfoot and Pokémon examples, perhaps), we must reject it here, though we could consider if it would be beneficial in one of the supporting guidelines. The recent discussion of Yobol's proposal at WT:MEDRS seems to be an example of this. —SMALLJIM 17:48, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
*Oppose We don't need to make room for more subjectivity in our policies. This interprets weight for editors. Weight is not that simplistic while adding these words is exclusive. (Littleolive oil (talk) 23:09, 19 January 2014 (UTC))
- Agree as common sense, though I would replace eminence with expertise. Using "expertise" addresses the concerns about introducing new terminology, since Wikipedia already distinguishes experts from non-experts per WP:SPS. If 50% of the relevant sources advance a particular viewpoint, but no expert sources do, then treating that viewpoint as if it were on par with the viewpoint of experts is a disservice to the reader. vzaak 23:52, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose editors deciding which WP:RS are "relevant" and "eminent/expert" per my reply to Blueboar's concern above. This change would institutionalize WP:CHERRYPICKING as policy. See also WP:The_Truth#See also. We've got enough battleground-articles already without adding this wrinkle. — 74.192.84.101 (talk) 10:39, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
- Disagree eminence is the wrong word, and there is no single word that fits. The general concept is to apply the rule about relative weight with common sense, which means that each case may need to be discussed individually. DGG ( talk ) 20:47, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
ASSERT
Can someone review WP:ASSERT? I'm not sure if it's part of NPOV policy or not, but there is some things in there that are either unclear or compromise the spirt of NPOV. The way it is worded, one could take any sourced item and state it in wikivoice as fact, so long as no one can find a disputing source, regardless of the clear opinionated nature of the content. Even if all the editors agree it's an opinion and there is disagreement to accuracy, ASSERT states only sources are relevant saying "In-text attribution to sources should be used where reliable sources disagree, not where editors disagree." I understand the intent, but it leaves a big hole. If you have sources that present a particular bias (which is fine) but no source directly refutes the argument, editors could claim ASSERT says they are to state it in Wikivoice as fact. Several sources say X, no one refutes X, X is fact. Following that, the argument is that X need not even be correct - just undisputed. I don't think that is the spirit of the policy. If something is an opinion or clearly subjective judgement, we should attribute it as described in NPOV. It seems ASSERT is acting to define what a "fact" and "opinion" are for the purposes of Wikipedia. Also, while looking at the definition, I wonder if we could use a clearer word than "serious" when defining a fact, as it has several meanings and I don't think we intend important or weighty. Morphh (talk) 06:34, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
- I would rather read that "there are 54 kilocalories of energy in a teaspoon of cement," rather than read "In 2012, Wallace Carlson, in his UCLA dissertation, reported that in 100 tests, there averaged ..54 etc." I don't know the right answer but I want it positively worded as if "we" knew. :I agree this goes downhill for the softer sciences. Is "Goldwater was found to be crazy" "better than" "In 1964, 450 psychiatrists declared that Goldwater was crazy"? I would prefer the latter for statements we know are going to be controversial.
- We allow contrary opinions. "Minimalists doubt the historicity of the Bible." "Maximalists state that much of the Bible has been found to be based on accurate history." There is room for "schools of thought" here. But we frequently have to attribute. Student7 (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, if there has only been one study, a PhD dissertation, that addressed a question, I'ld rather that was noted in text, rather than leaving it in Wikipedia's voice. I think it's obvious that WP:ASSERT is for facts about which there is no serious dispute if the issue was brought up among those knowledgeable in the field, but the way it's worded now suggests that any statement about which there has been no serious recorded dispute should be stated as fact. LK (talk) 07:07, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- Just a quick reply to Student7, the first example might be best addressed by saying "It is estimated (or Wallace Carlson estimated) that there are 54 kilocalories..." and the second is already phrased as an opinion "was found to be" where a statement of fact would just state "Goldwater was crazy". This is where NPOV gives us some allowance in how we attribute, where the current text of ASSERT does not. Morphh (talk) 02:33, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- I see your attempt got reverted. I've made a post on that talk page to bring more discussion and hopefully come to an agreement about rewording so that the section doesn't counter or subvert the spirit of NPOV. Morphh (talk) 21:52, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, if there has only been one study, a PhD dissertation, that addressed a question, I'ld rather that was noted in text, rather than leaving it in Wikipedia's voice. I think it's obvious that WP:ASSERT is for facts about which there is no serious dispute if the issue was brought up among those knowledgeable in the field, but the way it's worded now suggests that any statement about which there has been no serious recorded dispute should be stated as fact. LK (talk) 07:07, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
The text of Wikipedia articles should
not assert opinionsavoid asserting opinions as fact in Wikipedia's voice, but should assert facts. When a statement is a fact (a piece of information that is accepted as true and about which there is noseriousearnest dispute), it should normally be asserted without in-text attributionprefixing it with "(Source) says that ...", and when a statement is an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute or commonly considered to be subjective) it should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc.to the source that offered the opinion using inline-text attribution. In-text attributionto sourcesshould be used where reliable sources disagree, not where editors disagree. Note that inline citations used to attribute content are a different matter: adding a footnoted citation to a fact or an opinion for verification is always good practice.The text in the article, however, should mention the source only if the matter being described is an opinion, not a fact.
- Paragraph 1: I pulled some of the rewording directly from NPOV and the articles on fact and opinion. NPOV directly links to the articles on fact and opinion, but ASSERT was redefining those terms to something different. This attempts to bring the text in closer line with the text and spirit of NPOV. The last sentence just seemed to repeat what was already stated. Morphh (talk) 00:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
More broadly, the style of writing in Wikipedia is to state facts and only facts. Even while facts — like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” — are verifiable through reliable sources, in the text of Wikipedia articles, best practice is that such verified facts should be plainly asserted without in-text attribution to a source so as not to confuse facts with opinions. Where an author might want to mention opinions, the author should state the facts about that opinion by attributing the opinion to someone. (E.g. from a featured article: "Shen Kuo wrote that it was preferable to use the twenty-four-point rose instead of the old eight compass cardinal points.") When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about notable competing opinions without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. Another good practice is to explain the factual reasons behind the documented opinions, and to make it clear who holds them and why there is any disagreement or controversy.
Inline attribution of a reliably sourced fact on the grounds that it is just the "opinion" of the sources is a misapplication of Wikipedia policy and would have the negative consequence of allowing any contrarian to insist on an inline qualifier for material about which there is no serious dispute. Such an editorial philosophy, if taken to extremes, would require all material in Wikipedia to have an inline qualifier, even if only one Wikipedia editor insisted on it. This is not only poor writing, it is also editorially unsound as it is generally not possible to list every person who accepts any given fact.Additionally, presenting a "fact" as an "opinion" isPresenting a fact as an opinion can needlesslyattributingattrbute uncontroversial statements, and so creatingand create the appearance of doubt or disagreement where there is none.
- Paragraph 3: I would place the last sentence of paragraph 3 within paragraph 1. Most of this paragraph repeats what is already stated, including that reliable sources should be used and not editor opinion, but it does so in a way that could subvert the spirit of NPOV if the source is clearly opinionated in nature. Morphh (talk) 01:33, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
The text of Wikipedia articles should avoid asserting opinions as fact in Wikipedia's voice, but should assert facts. When a statement is a fact (a piece of information that is accepted as true and about which there is no earnest dispute), it should normally be asserted without in-text attribution, and when a statement is an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute or commonly considered to be subjective) it should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. In-text attribution should be used where reliable sources disagree, not where editors disagree. Presenting a fact as an opinion can needlessly attribute uncontroversial statements and create the appearance of doubt or disagreement where there is none. Note that inline citations used to attribute content are a different matter: adding a footnoted citation to a fact or an opinion for verification is always good practice.
More broadly, the style of writing in Wikipedia is to state facts and only facts. Even while facts — like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” — are verifiable through reliable sources, in the text of Wikipedia articles, best practice is that such verified facts should be plainly asserted without in-text attribution to a source so as not to confuse facts with opinions. Where an author might want to mention opinions, the author should state the facts about that opinion by attributing the opinion to someone. (e.g. from a featured article: "Shen Kuo wrote that it was preferable to use the twenty-four-point rose instead of the old eight compass cardinal points.") When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about notable competing opinions without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. Another good practice is to explain the factual reasons behind the documented opinions, and to make it clear who holds them and why there is any disagreement or controversy.
- One thing that jumps out right away is that you need to make it clear that the type of attribution you're talking about is in-text attribution, not the normal referencing sort of attribution dealt with by WP:A, for instance. See also WP:INTEXT. The second sentences in both of your paragraphs ignore this distinction, giving the impression that facts don't need to be attributed at all. While that is the case for really obvious facts like "Mars is a planet", it's definitely not the general impression that we want to give – see WP:ONUS.
As part of an FAQ we need to provide a very clear explanation here, and while I agree with you that there's a technical problem with the current wording, I don't think your version is better, yet. —SMALLJIM 22:48, 12 March 2014 (UTC)- Good point - I've added clarification of "in text" in several places and wikilinked the first instance. I also added additional information to the Note regarding attributing content with citations so as to help further clarify the distinction. Morphh (talk) 17:32, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry Morphh, but I can't really afford the time to give this the consideration it needs at present. You've fixed the main problem, though I think the whole thing is still too verbose and vague (not really your fault). Ideally it should be rewritten from scratch: what it needs to say would be better said in one short concise paragraph. Does anyone else have any comments? —SMALLJIM 12:36, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks SMALLJIM, I tried to avoid changing more than I thought was necessary to fix the problems, but you're correct that it could be more clear and succinct. I figured the more changes I made, the more opposition I would encounter. I don't want to divert from updating the text with necessary changes, but for the sake of presenting something shorter and what I might ultimately like to see, here is a crack at it. In the current text (and my prior suggestion), the last two sentences of the second paragraph don't seem to clarify this topic, but just rehash WEIGHT. The second sentence in the second paragraph is confusing and just repeats what has already been stated, as does the third sentence. The opinion example in the second paragraph might be better left by just following the in-text attribution wikilink. If we removed the redundant and off topic content and reword it slightly to be more concise, it might look something like this:
The text of Wikipedia articles should avoid asserting opinions as fact in Wikipedia's voice, but should assert facts. When a statement is a fact (a piece of information that is accepted as true and about which there is no earnest dispute), like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher”, it should normally be asserted without in-text attribution. This is done to avoid confusing facts with opinions and needlessly qualifying uncontroversial statements, which could create an appearance of doubt or disagreement among reliable sources where there is none. When a statement is an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute or commonly considered to be subjective), it should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. In this way, we assert the fact of an opinion by describing who holds the view. A simple formulation is to assert facts, including facts about opinions—but don't assert opinions themselves. Note that inline citations used to attribute content are a different matter: adding a footnoted citation to a fact or an opinion for verification is always good practice.
- We could probably remove the last "note" sentence as well if we feel the prior text makes clear what type of attribution is being described. Morphh (talk) 15:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry Morphh, but I can't really afford the time to give this the consideration it needs at present. You've fixed the main problem, though I think the whole thing is still too verbose and vague (not really your fault). Ideally it should be rewritten from scratch: what it needs to say would be better said in one short concise paragraph. Does anyone else have any comments? —SMALLJIM 12:36, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Good point - I've added clarification of "in text" in several places and wikilinked the first instance. I also added additional information to the Note regarding attributing content with citations so as to help further clarify the distinction. Morphh (talk) 17:32, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- One thing that jumps out right away is that you need to make it clear that the type of attribution you're talking about is in-text attribution, not the normal referencing sort of attribution dealt with by WP:A, for instance. See also WP:INTEXT. The second sentences in both of your paragraphs ignore this distinction, giving the impression that facts don't need to be attributed at all. While that is the case for really obvious facts like "Mars is a planet", it's definitely not the general impression that we want to give – see WP:ONUS.
Possible re-write for consideration
Morphh, per your msg on my talk page, can I offer this quick and scrappy re-write? Examples of opinions are needed, and I know it's got more paragraphs than before instead of fewer :) Make of it what you will:
Assert facts, not opinions
What is the difference between asserting a fact and asserting an opinion?
The text of Wikipedia articles should assert facts, but must not assert opinions as fact.
- When a statement is a fact (a piece of information that is accepted as true and which cannot be seriously disputed), it should be asserted using Wikipedia's own voice without in-text attribution, thus: "Mars is a planet" or "Plato was a philosopher". We do not write: "According to the Daily Telegraph, the capital of France is Paris" because that creates the impression of doubt or disagreement where there is none. It is good practice, however, to include an inline citation to a reliable source to allow the reader to verify any facts that are not widely known.
- When a statement is an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute or commonly considered to be subjective), it should always be attributed in the text to the person or group who holds the opinion, and it is important to remember that opinions only held by tiny minorities should not be included, per WP:WEIGHT. Thus: "Prominent scientist John Smith wrote that the Earth is flat" or "example 2". We do not write: "example 3". In every case opinions should be backed up with an inline citation to a reliable source that verifies both the opinion and who holds it.
A simple formulation is to assert facts, including facts about opinions, but don't assert opinions themselves.
This is obviously not intended to be perfect, but I hope it helps, —SMALLJIM 18:37, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
- I like it. It has a little more, but it's simpler and directly presents examples for each, which might be best for an FAQ. Possible tweaks.. statements compared to NPOV. This says "must not assert", NPOV says "should not assert" - just wonder if we should use the same language as NPOV. Another absolute - "should always be" might just be better left as "should be". Perhaps strike "In every case " and just say "Opinions should be backed up..." Maybe it's better to use stronger language here - not sure, but figured I would point it out. I question the "and it is important ... WEIGHT" inclusion as I think it side tracks from the point of this FAQ. WEIGHT can speak for itself because there are cases in ancillary articles where tiny minority views are expressed and we don't want to confuse the issues. If we want to include something, then perhaps it might be better to do so in the last sentence "Opinions should be included based on weight and backed up with an ..." For the additional examples, we could probably reuse the example from NPOV which is, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil." Morphh (talk) 20:46, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Assert facts, not opinions
What is the difference between asserting a fact and asserting an opinion?
The text of Wikipedia articles should assert facts, but must not assert opinions as fact.
- When a statement is a fact (a piece of information that is accepted as true and which cannot be seriously disputed), it should be asserted using Wikipedia's own voice without in-text attribution, thus: "Mars is a planet" or "Plato was a philosopher". We do not write: "According to the Daily Telegraph, the capital of France is Paris" because that creates the impression of doubt or disagreement where there is none. It is good practice, however, to include an inline citation to a reliable source to allow the reader to verify any facts that are not widely known.
- When a statement is an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute or commonly considered to be subjective), it should be attributed in the text to the person or group who holds the opinion, thus: "John Rawls says that, to reach fair decisions, parties must consider matters as if behind a veil of ignorance.[2]" or "Genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil.[3]". We do not write: "Genocide is an evil action". Opinions should be included based on weight and backed up with an inline citation to a reliable source that verifies both the opinion and who holds it.
A simple formulation is to assert facts, including facts about opinions, but don't assert opinions themselves.
- That all sounds good to me. The "must/should" wording issue is one that's been thrashed out hereabouts in the past: not sure if there's been a consensus, but to follow the present policy wording can't be wrong. Agree with you about the weight given to WP:WEIGHT :) though we don't want to give any impression that opinions should always be included, so perhaps "The inclusion of opinions in articles is subject to the provisions of WP:WEIGHT, and they should be backed up with ..." would be better. Maybe a link to WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV would be helpful here, too. —SMALLJIM 19:10, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- That rewording sounds good to me. Morphh (talk) 14:43, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- User:Smalljim, I presented the revised text below. I tried to make that latest suggestion a bit more concise, thinking that "in articles" should be assumed and "subject to the provisions of weight" seemed to be the same as just saying "subject to weight". I added attributepov (aka substantiate) as a replacement word for verifies. I'm not sure if that changes the meaning though. Tweak below as needed. Morphh (talk) 02:08, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- I changed "substantiates" back to "verifies". I was concerned that it changed the meaning, but we can discuss if you think it works. Instead, I wikilinked WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV to "people and groups" though maybe we can figure another way to work it in better. Morphh (talk) 02:40, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- That rewording sounds good to me. Morphh (talk) 14:43, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- That all sounds good to me. The "must/should" wording issue is one that's been thrashed out hereabouts in the past: not sure if there's been a consensus, but to follow the present policy wording can't be wrong. Agree with you about the weight given to WP:WEIGHT :) though we don't want to give any impression that opinions should always be included, so perhaps "The inclusion of opinions in articles is subject to the provisions of WP:WEIGHT, and they should be backed up with ..." would be better. Maybe a link to WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV would be helpful here, too. —SMALLJIM 19:10, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- To help think about this I'm posting the original here so it's a bit more convenient to compare. The original is on the FAQ page under
FAQ#Assert facts, not opinions and says
This is the current text
What is the difference between asserting a fact and asserting an opinion?
The text of Wikipedia articles should not assert opinions but should assert facts. When a statement is a fact (a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute) it should be asserted without prefixing it with "(Source) says that ...", and when a statement is an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute) it should be attributed to the source that offered the opinion using inline-text attribution. In-text attribution to sources should be used where reliable sources disagree, not where editors disagree. Note that citations are a different matter: adding a footnoted citation to a fact or an opinion is always good practice. The text in the article, however, should mention the source only if the matter being described is an opinion, not a fact.
More broadly, the style of writing in Wikipedia is to state facts and only facts. Even while facts — like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” — are verifiable through reliable sources, in the text of Wikipedia articles, best practice is that such verified facts should be plainly asserted without attribution to a source so as not to confuse facts with opinions. Where an author might want to mention opinions, the author should state the facts about that opinion by attributing the opinion to someone. (E.g. from a featured article: "Shen Kuo wrote that it was preferable to use the twenty-four-point rose instead of the old eight compass cardinal points.") When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about notable competing opinions without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. Another good practice is to explain the factual reasons behind the documented opinions, and to make it clear who holds them and why there is any disagreement or controversy.
Inline attribution of a reliably sourced fact on the grounds that it is just the "opinion" of the sources is a misapplication of Wikipedia policy and would have the negative consequence of allowing any contrarian to insist on an inline qualifier for material about which there is no serious dispute. Such an editorial philosophy, if taken to extremes, would require all material in Wikipedia to have an inline qualifier, even if only one Wikipedia editor insisted on it. This is not only poor writing, it is also editorially unsound as it is generally not possible to list every person who accepts any given fact. Additionally, presenting a "fact" as an "opinion" is needlessly attributing uncontroversial statements, and so creating the appearance of doubt or disagreement where there is none.
This is the proposed text — as of 21:00, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
What is the difference between asserting a fact and asserting an opinion?
The text of Wikipedia articles should assert facts, but must not assert opinions as fact.
- When a statement is a fact (e.g. information that is accepted as true and about which there is no serious dispute), it should be asserted using Wikipedia's own voice without in-text attribution. Thus we write: "Mars is a planet" or "Plato was a philosopher". We do not write: "According to the Daily Telegraph, the capital of France is Paris" because doing so would create the impression of doubt or disagreement where there is none. It is good practice, however, to include an inline citation to a reliable source to allow the reader to verify any fact that is not widely known.
- When a statement is an opinion (e.g. a matter which is subject to dispute or commonly considered to be subjective), it should be attributed in the text to the person or group who holds the opinion. Thus we might write: "Charles Darwin says that human beings evolved through natural selection.[2]" or "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre.[3]". We do not write: "John Doe is the best baseball player". The inclusion of opinions is subject to weight policy, and they should be backed up with an inline citation to a reliable source that verifies both the opinion and who holds it.
A simple formulation is to assert facts, including facts about opinions, but don't assert opinions themselves.
I don't have an opinion (yet anyway) about the proposal. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:21, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- I was agreeing with nearly everyone until we got to discussing quotes. I definitely would not like to see "more quotes." Paraphrasing is better, unless the quote is particularly pithy, "No taxes without representation," "Don't give up the ship," "Monotremes oviparous, ovum meroblastic," that sort of classic phraseology. What we get is unwanted diatribe to deliberately bias the reader against the speaker, or to brainwash the unlettered audience.
- While the very short version given above was nice (KISS), I suppose we have to go on about it in order to turn off Wikilawyers, looking for a loophole in a short version. "It says nothing about ....." Student7 (talk) 20:51, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- User:Student7, are you speaking of the ASSERT material above or the IMPARTIAL material below? The IMPARTIAL material below is the text with regard to quotations, which moved to the Village Pump. This content is about ASSERT and how you deal with a fact & opinion - nothing about quotations. So I think you posted to the wrong section. Morphh (talk) 21:41, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- I thought ASSERT above (and even further above), but if it looks lost, and confuses the thread, I'll scratch through it. Student7 (talk) 22:06, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- User:Student7, it appeared like your first paragraph was about IMPARTIAL and your second about ASSERT. But, I think I understand a bit more and I think you may be confused on which is the proposed text. The quoted text above was not the proposal, but what ASSERT currently states - that which we seek to change. It was added by NewsAndEventsGuy so that you could more easily compare it to proposals that were listed prior. To try and make this a little clearer, I'll box the current text in a red background color so it's more apparent and I'll place the proposed text below it in blue. Morphh (talk) 01:41, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- I thought ASSERT above (and even further above), but if it looks lost, and confuses the thread, I'll scratch through it. Student7 (talk) 22:06, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- User:Student7, are you speaking of the ASSERT material above or the IMPARTIAL material below? The IMPARTIAL material below is the text with regard to quotations, which moved to the Village Pump. This content is about ASSERT and how you deal with a fact & opinion - nothing about quotations. So I think you posted to the wrong section. Morphh (talk) 21:41, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
I generally like the directions the proposed changes are taking quite a bit. The most recently suggested version is more concise and easier to follow, for the most part, than the existing version. I think a few additional changes might be helpful:
What is the difference between asserting a fact and asserting an opinion?
The text of Wikipedia articles should assert facts, but must
notnever assert opinions as fact.
- When a statement is a fact (
a piece ofinformation that is accepted as true and which cannot be seriously disputed), it should be asserted using Wikipedia's own voice without in-text attribution, thus:. Thus we write, "Mars is a planet" or "Plato was a philosopher". We do not write: "According to the Daily Telegraph, the capital of France is Paris", becausethat createsdoing so would create the impression of doubt or disagreement where there is none. It is good practice, however, to include an inline citation to a reliable source to allow the reader to verify anyfacts that arefact that is not widely known.
- When a statement
isdescribes an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute or commonly considered to be subjective),itthe opinion should be attributed in the text to the person or group who holdsthe opinion, thus:it. Thus we might write: "John Rawls says that, to reach fair decisions, parties must consider matters as if behind a veil of ignorance.[2]" or "Genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil.[3]". We do not write: "Genocide is an evil action". The inclusion of statements describing opinions is subject to weight policy, andtheyany such statement should be backed up with an inline citation to a reliable source that verifies both the opinion and who holds it.A simple formulation is to assert facts, including statements describing facts about opinions, in Wikipedia's own voice but don't assert opinions themselves.
Dezastru (talk) 15:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks Dezastru - I updated the text with the changes that I could easily agree with, which were all of the suggestions in the fact paragraph and one in the opinion paragraph. Let's discuss the others, starting with the first sentence, then jumping to the last (simple formulation), and then discussing the opinion paragraph.
- The first sentence stating "must not" was already pushing the bounds of difference from NPOV, which states "should not" and uses the headline "Avoid stating opinions as facts". I have concern with using such strong language as "must never" when this is meant to help explain NPOV, not conflict with it or send a different message.
- I would not change the simple formulation (last sentence) as it has long standing use, is directly quoted in NPOV (Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Common_objections_and_clarifications), and is arguably less simple.
- For the changes on the opinion paragraph, I have a few so I'll break them down separately:
- "is" -> "describes": I'm considering the difference and what we're trying to explain. Using one of Student7's examples above "Goldwater was found to be crazy" is a statement that "describes" an opinion - while not providing proper in-text attribution for who holds it, it's a statement of fact about an opinion. "Goldwater was crazy" is a statement that "is" an opinion, but stated as fact in Wikivoice, thus violating our first declaration of the section. Both should have in-text attribution, but I think that FAQ is focusing on the second instance - not asserting opinions as fact. I think "is" would be the proper term here and it should give equal direction as it states how to describe opinions with in-text attribution.
- "it" -> "the opinion": I would prefer symmetry with the prior paragraph - so if it makes sense there, then maybe we should make a similar change to the fact paragraph.
- I could agree with the "statements describing opinions" change in the last sentence of the opinion paragraph (vs the opening sentence), because that's what we should be including, but I'm not sure it adds anything. Similarly "any such statement" - it seems to have the same meaning to me with or without those additional words. If it doesn't change the meaning, then I'd go for brevity. Morphh (talk) 17:37, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- I see your points about introducing "describes". My concern is that the existing version has a line that pretty much explains what is meant by 'stating facts about opinions': "Where an author might want to mention opinions, the author should state the facts about that opinion by attributing the opinion to someone". That line has been taken out for the proposed version, so when the phrase shows up in the final line of the proposed version as "A simple formulation is to assert facts, including facts about opinions," it could be confusing. (It was kind of confusing to me even the first few times I read it in the existing version.) Is there a way to adjust the proposal to further reduce the chance of that kind of confusion? Dezastru (talk) 20:38, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- User:Dezastru, while still trying to keep it concise, perhaps we could insert it in the second sentence - maybe with an added link to WP:IMPARTIAL or some other pertinent text. Perhaps something like "Thus, describing an opinion, we might write:" or "Thus we describe opinions such as writing:". Morphh (talk) 13:56, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Operative change #1, definition of "fact"
As I write, we use the following definitions
- OLD TEXT Fact - a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute
- PROPOSED Fact - information that is accepted as true and which cannot be seriously disputed
There is a world of difference between those. For example, the "proposed" language excludes pretty much all of science. For example, there was a time when it was taken as a fact that the continents have always been where they are. It was taken as fact under the current definition of fact (generally accepted, and not being seriously disputed). Obviously, the proposed definition would have excluded the possibility that we would amass tons of data on which to based the study of plate tectonics. So I think the old language is preferable, from a philosophy-of-science perspective. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:05, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- PS Actually, I like the "accepted as true" part of the proposal and think that part should be added to the current definition "about which there is no serious dispute" NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for your PS, as it was important to better reflect the definition of fact (as that's what NPOV does) and not redefine it for the purposes of ASSERT. Part of the initial issue was that something could be stated as fact just because it was undisputed, regardless if it was considered true or subjective. To be honest, I didn't see much difference between "about which there is no serious dispute" and "which cannot be seriously disputed", but I can understand the point and have no issue restoring that wording. Perhaps User:Smalljim can give some insight into that change. Morphh (talk) 18:16, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'm happy for you to decide the exact wording - as I said my re-working was only a quick scrappy one. Two points though, before I leave you to it. (1.) You need to ensure that the wording still accurately reflects what you started this re-write for – I know how easy it is to get sidetracked. (2.) On re-reading it, I'm not sure about using genocide as a good example of something that's "a matter which is subject to dispute or commonly considered to be subjective". Wouldn't the "greatest baseball player" example be more like the type of problem this FAQ is meant to assist with? Good luck, and don't expend too much more effort before you put the change up, because it's quite likely to be reverted by someone else for some reason you haven't even considered! —SMALLJIM 18:26, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Good thoughts - I do prefer your wording and I actually think it better addresses the meaning. To NewsAndEventsGuy's example, I disagree that we should have stated such science as fact, but as the current majority theory. "About which there is no serious dispute" opens up the argument for "undisputed opinions", where as "which cannot be seriously disputed" brings us closer to the facts of observable science. As for the genocide example, the baseball one might be a better fit - I'll look at rewording. I was just pulling from assert in NPOV. Morphh (talk) 19:00, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- While you are considering a different example than the one about genocide, I think it would also be helpful to find a different example than the one mentioning Rawls. It's just a bit pretentious and it detracts from the passage because it invites taking a moment or two to ponder just what it was that Rawls was getting at (for most readers, I would imagine). The reason the Mars, Plato, and Paris examples are so strong is that they are, by contrast, very simple, clear, and concise – no additional thought is required to process what those examples mean, so the reader's focus remains fully engaged on what the passage is saying about NPOV rules. Dezastru (talk) 20:50, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Good thoughts - I do prefer your wording and I actually think it better addresses the meaning. To NewsAndEventsGuy's example, I disagree that we should have stated such science as fact, but as the current majority theory. "About which there is no serious dispute" opens up the argument for "undisputed opinions", where as "which cannot be seriously disputed" brings us closer to the facts of observable science. As for the genocide example, the baseball one might be a better fit - I'll look at rewording. I was just pulling from assert in NPOV. Morphh (talk) 19:00, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- I'm happy for you to decide the exact wording - as I said my re-working was only a quick scrappy one. Two points though, before I leave you to it. (1.) You need to ensure that the wording still accurately reflects what you started this re-write for – I know how easy it is to get sidetracked. (2.) On re-reading it, I'm not sure about using genocide as a good example of something that's "a matter which is subject to dispute or commonly considered to be subjective". Wouldn't the "greatest baseball player" example be more like the type of problem this FAQ is meant to assist with? Good luck, and don't expend too much more effort before you put the change up, because it's quite likely to be reverted by someone else for some reason you haven't even considered! —SMALLJIM 18:26, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for your PS, as it was important to better reflect the definition of fact (as that's what NPOV does) and not redefine it for the purposes of ASSERT. Part of the initial issue was that something could be stated as fact just because it was undisputed, regardless if it was considered true or subjective. To be honest, I didn't see much difference between "about which there is no serious dispute" and "which cannot be seriously disputed", but I can understand the point and have no issue restoring that wording. Perhaps User:Smalljim can give some insight into that change. Morphh (talk) 18:16, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
What the heck is a "serious dispute", anyway? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:26, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- That was one of my initial concerns as well, since seriously (or serious) has several common meanings. I had opted for the word "earnest" in my original rewrite, but the term "serious" does have long standing, so I can go either way (or if you can think of a better term). Morphh (talk) 18:36, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- A 'serious dispute' is a dispute made by a sober, sane person (or group of people) in good faith, not in jest or as a sensationalistic act. I think you are reading too much into this phrasing. The problem with an 'earnest dispute', although it is close in meaning, is that earnest in that phrasing could refer to how the dispute is received (which is what we want to say) or to how strongly the person advancing the dispute makes an appeal (which is not what we want to say). A person who is regarded by all observers as being clearly insane could be very sincere and fervent in making a dispute (thus "an earnest dispute"), but few would regard the dispute as being worthy of any serious attention or consideration. Dezastru (talk) 20:19, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't see any significant difference between "information that is accepted as true and cannot be seriously disputed" and "information about which there is no serious dispute" in this context. The examples provided, mentioning Mars and Plato, help to make very clear the point that is being conveyed. So I don't think it makes that much of a difference which version is used. Still, I don't see the argument that the proposed version is excluding science. Wikipedia is based on existing reliable (generally "mainstream") sources, and the term "cannot be seriously disputed" refers to information that is held by nearly all reliable sources to be clearly evident or well-demonstrated at the time the Wikipedia passage is being written. That does not mean that some scientists might not be studying the information under the hypothesis that it might not be true, or that there is absolute certainty that most mainstream reliable sources will continue to have the same understanding of the information as is held today (hey, maybe one day it will turn out that Mars is not really a planet after all! at which point, we would write, "Mars is not a planet").
The phrase "a piece of information" should still be changed to just "information", however, as the latter is cleaner. Dezastru (talk) 20:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- With a small substitution "Mars is a planet" illustrates my point. Not so along ago, had we used "Pluto is a planet" as an example fact of something that can not - no how, no way, never ever ever - "can not" be seriously disputed, that would have been intellectually arrogant and dishonest... and embarrassing, because as subsequent events show, that statement on its face is false. The statement was recently "seriously disputed", and Pluto is no longer considered to be a "planet" but a different type of astronomical body known in common parlance as "dwarf planet". To say that something can not (never) be seriously disputed is to preclude the possibility that our kids will be smarter than we are. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:36, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think I agree with NewsAndEventsGuy. A mainstay function of WP:ASSERT was to guarantee that claims which are not disputed by any significant number of reliable sources are not insulated through the use of ascription, rather than stated directly in Wikivoice. An archetypal example would be like those concerning plate tectonics, which N&EG just mentioned. These are claims concerning which it is possible to have a serious dispute (indeed, there has been), but they are not currently seriously disputed. For example, there are a few biologists today who believe in creationism. And before Darwin, many more did. That doesn't rise to the level of a "serious dispute" however, because the ideas of that few today and those many in the past are rejected by the vast majority of today's biologists. Using "cannot be seriously disputed" rather than "is not seriously disputed" would mean that these cases are categorized differently, which is exactly what we don't want. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:02, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- I think it's even more complicated than that. There is a lot in psychology about which there is a serious dispute, but within the profession, there is a widely accepted position and a generally rejected minority. Outside the experts, the prevalence of these views may well be reversed (see also, creationism, people who believe that taking vitamins will prevent cancer, etc.).
- For example, we've seen a number of transgendered editors express honest surprise that transsexual people aren't considered biologically intersexed people. This is a fact: there are agreed-upon definitions and criteria for what counts as being biologically intersexed, and "I feel like the opposite of my assigned gender, and there's probably some as-yet unidentified neurological difference that causes this" isn't one of them. The mainstream definition is supported by all the intersex groups as well as by mainstream experts (e.g., typical psych and medical textbooks).
- But this is also a fact: A few experts and quite a few trans people do not accept this definition as true.
- So how would you present this? It can be disputed (in fact, any definition can be contested, because definitions are fundamentally arbitrary). It is accepted as true by most people, but not by thousands of others. I don't want editors to have to decide whether this definition is "true". I don't think we help readers by presenting the mainstream definition as being "a fact about an opinion", and I'm worried that this change might require us to do so. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:55, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
I've changed the proposed text back to "about which there is no serious dispute" until or unless we agree on something else, since that currently seems to have a stronger consensus and history. NPOV avoids defining the term and just links to fact, so I'm sure we'll run into disagreements in trying to define it, particularly when the fact article doesn't include lack of dispute as a description. My concern with the current wording was that it might imply that an undisputed opinion is a fact. If something is an opinion, a matter which is subject to dispute or commonly considered to be subjective, then the absence of a serious dispute at the time of writing doesn't make it a fact. So I think the intent with the rewording was to avoid that false conclusion - that assert is redefining what a fact is. Morphh (talk) 23:45, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Morph, who said "My concern with the current wording was that it might imply that an undisputed opinion is a fact." I thought we were going to include the bit that a fact is something that is "generally accepted as true" or some such wording, which would obviate that specific worry about JoSchmo's opinions. After all, if no one even knows Jo, much less Jo's opinions, there is no way those opinions could be "seriously disputed" and thus confused with this definition of "Fact". NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:36, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- Correct, and I did maintain that in the definition and I agree that including that does mitigate the concern. I was just voicing why I think it was reworded like that (additional mitigation - perhaps too much) in case anyone thought of a wording that better addressed the issues brought up in this thread. My line of thought was pondering a statement that would be commonly considered to be subjective, but yet is still considered by over 99% to be true and of which there is no serious dispute, such as "Genocide is an evil act", which we have listed in NPOV as an opinion. In that case, we probably have sources that dispute it, but that was my line of thought. Morphh (talk) 00:58, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- Even though this may be so huge and complex that you have probably temporarily lost 90% of participants, I think that you are doing immensely useful and important work in this thread. North8000 (talk) 23:52, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Morph, who said "My concern with the current wording was that it might imply that an undisputed opinion is a fact." I thought we were going to include the bit that a fact is something that is "generally accepted as true" or some such wording, which would obviate that specific worry about JoSchmo's opinions. After all, if no one even knows Jo, much less Jo's opinions, there is no way those opinions could be "seriously disputed" and thus confused with this definition of "Fact". NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:36, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
The three cases are:
- The metrics of a correct answer are agreed on, and the answer is overwhelmingly considered to be known. (like at least 99% of reasonably people with good access to information agree) E.g., "Did the US land a man on the moon?" (all would agree what "land a man on the moon" means) "Who won the 2010 Super Bowl?" (all would agree what "win the Super Bowl" means).
- The metrics of a correct answer are agreed upon, but the answer is not agreed upon or known: E.g., "Where did Amelia Earhart's final flight end?" Another way to say this is that if full information were available, all reasonable parties would certainly agree.
- The metrics of a correct answer are not agreed upon, so, of course, neither is the answer. Example: "Is Obama a good or bad president?" Even the definition / criteria of "is a good or bad president" is not agreed upon.
I think that we should understand that we are talking about #1. North8000 (talk) 23:57, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Now take my example, and tell me which category that falls into. On the one hand, we have Big Textbook saying that the structure and function of nerves is totally irrelevant to the definition of "biologically intersexed": if all of your genetics, hormones, and anatomy are male (or all female), then you are not intersexed, no matter what's going on with your brain. On the other hand, we have Minority Expert saying that nerves are biological, too, and therefore if you've got the genetics, hormones, and anatomy of a male (or female), but a central nervous system that makes you identify as a woman (or man), then you are "biologically intersexed".
- So: in your system, is it a fact that trans people are not intersexed, or is that just an opinion? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:21, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- That must be where fact and opinion intersects........ (ha ha?) No really, sounds like a battle to define a label (option 3 I think). If we have tangible RSs defining a label one way, and others defining it another way, one reasonable way forward is to report the different ways the various perspectives define the label. What are words, after all, but symbols? If enough people agreed, we could decide that "pizza" really means the decorative things we use to cover the lugnuts on our cars' wheels and "frisbee" is what you eat with pepperoni. Seems the answer to your question lies in a thorough study of RSs and WP:FOC in the discussions at the appropriate venues. You might end up framing the quesiton, "Have the RSs conclusively decided on a definition for 'biologically intersexed'?" thus the question becomes more like Case 1, at least among reasonable wikipedia editors. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 07:54, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- I also think the issue of gender identity is a clear example that weighs against defining "opinion" as including any claim which is commonly considered to be subjective. I think in almost all cases we treat the gender identity of a person as fact. E.g., at Margaret Thatcher, we say that she was "the only woman to have held the office" in direct Wikivoice, and we don't ascribe that claim to the Times or anyone else. And gender identity is commonly considered to be subjective; that's actually exactly how it is defined in our article on gender identity: "Gender identity is a person's private sense, and subjective experience, of their own gender". --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 08:10, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- That sentence doesn't describe her gender identity, it describes her sex. If she described herself differently than her sex, then we would include that as her (and others) opinion regarding her gender. Example RuPaul. If at some point Thatcher had a sex change or was a hermaphrodite, then we would have to reframe the statements. Example Chaz Bono, Jenna Talackova It's a matter of making sure we're clear on what is being described to the average reader. It's a tricky one, but in the end, we need to keep in mind that ASSERT is an FAQ to help the reader better understand NPOV - if we find ourselves thinking NPOV says one thing and ASSERT says something else, then we probably need to reword ASSERT. It should provide useful examples of application, not confuse or add policy. Morphh (talk) 13:19, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- If we find ourselves with skin cancer we should probably have a biopsy also -- which is my way of asking are we just chewing the fat over arch-principles or is there a claim that there is a tangible between NPOV and ASSERT? If so, then in 20 words or less can someone tell us what NPOV says and in another 20 words or less explain what ASSERT says differently NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:42, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- Currently or in the proposed text? For the proposed text, I think we're just chewing the fat - perhaps a better wording will fall out, but I think the proposed text does a much better job of reflecting and providing examples of application for NPOV. The current ASSERT text has several issues that I think conflict with the spirit and text of NPOV, which is outlined in the beginning of this discussion. So I certainly think the proposed text is fixing something if that is your inquiry. But if we're fixing anything by discussing the nuances of the proposed text, I can't say. My point was that we don't veer too far off the path from our guiding policy as we evaluate wording. (i.e. Atethnekos's comment of weighing against defining opinion as something "commonly considered to be subjective", which is the exact wording linked to by NPOV for this policy). At this point, I think we have a consensus on "information that is accepted as true and about which there is no serious dispute" so any further discussion would be with regard to altering that if we think of something that better reflects the definition as referenced in NPOV. Morphh (talk) 14:14, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- Even if it were describing her sex, sex is also commonly considered to be subjective. That is the view of many established experts on sex, including Christine Overall and Bobby Noble (academic). "commonly considered to be subjective" is the wording now used at the article opinion. That definition was not in the article when WP:ASF took form. WP:ASF first started to link the word "opinion" to opinion on January 24 2007 [2]. On January 24 2007, opinion said nothing about subjectivity at all [3]; it defined opinion as "a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified." People can change articles to whatever they want, that doesn't mean that the policies which were previously linked to them then change meaning. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 19:14, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- Sexual anatomy is commonly considered subjective? I think this is getting too meta. :) We need not go back 7 years or 5 years when it was included - ASSERT is now an FAQ for NPOV and should reflect what the policy currently states. It's there to help explain the application of the policy, and should be careful not to redefine it. I recently added e.g. before the definitions in the proposed text so as to indicate that we're providing a brief understanding of fact and opinion, not asserting a definition. That way if there is a unique situation, it can be more easily addressed by consensus on the article talk. Morphh (talk) 19:58, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that classification of sexual anatomy is subjective is a common, established view. A question you hear posed is: "How large does a clitoral-penile homologue have to be, before it is no longer a clitoris and is instead a penis?" That question, whenever it is actually of practical significance (as in, during a debate on what to write down on a birth certificate), is usually answered by physicians, and the physicians have no objective standard for determining the answer (see e.g., [4]).
- I guess, what I think the core problem with the proposal is that is removes an important lesson that ASSERT is trying to impart: That WP:NPOV should not have "the negative consequence of allowing any contrarian to insist on an inline qualifier for material about which there is no serious dispute." Take the various claims at B.B. King that some of King's music is blues. No reliable source disputes this claim. On the current wording of ASSERT, we can just say: "B.B. King plays blues." Take a contrarian who comes around and says something such as, "We can't say that, it's just an opinion, because it's commonly regarded as subjective (e.g., 'Defining the blues is a subjective task at bottom' [5]) We have to ascribe the view, not report it in Wikivoice." What ASSERT now makes clear to that person is that that is wrong: The claim is reliably source (it passes WP:V), and no reliable source disagrees with it, so it should just be asserted as a "fact", directly in Wikivoice. And ASSERT makes it clear why what that person's view is wrong: Because it creates the appearance of a controversy where there is none. Changing the proposal to remove this lesson, I think is a mistake, because no where else is it taught in policy. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:50, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- While I disagree with your conclusion and how the examples apply, perhaps we could use a different brief explanation than "commonly considered to be subjective" to avoid confusion. What about something like "opinion, (e.g. a matter which is subject to dispute, a judgment, viewpoint, or interpretation of fact)"? The proposal does include the why we don't do in-text attribution of a fact "... because doing so would create the impression of doubt or disagreement where there is none". We need to be careful because NPOV policy doesn't define a fact or opinion (outside of linking to the articles), and the FAQ is not the place to set policy defining it as something notably different. The FAQ definitions should be a reference to help the reader understand the examples and application. Morphh (talk) 00:05, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
- Sexual anatomy is commonly considered subjective? I think this is getting too meta. :) We need not go back 7 years or 5 years when it was included - ASSERT is now an FAQ for NPOV and should reflect what the policy currently states. It's there to help explain the application of the policy, and should be careful not to redefine it. I recently added e.g. before the definitions in the proposed text so as to indicate that we're providing a brief understanding of fact and opinion, not asserting a definition. That way if there is a unique situation, it can be more easily addressed by consensus on the article talk. Morphh (talk) 19:58, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- If we find ourselves with skin cancer we should probably have a biopsy also -- which is my way of asking are we just chewing the fat over arch-principles or is there a claim that there is a tangible between NPOV and ASSERT? If so, then in 20 words or less can someone tell us what NPOV says and in another 20 words or less explain what ASSERT says differently NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:42, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- That sentence doesn't describe her gender identity, it describes her sex. If she described herself differently than her sex, then we would include that as her (and others) opinion regarding her gender. Example RuPaul. If at some point Thatcher had a sex change or was a hermaphrodite, then we would have to reframe the statements. Example Chaz Bono, Jenna Talackova It's a matter of making sure we're clear on what is being described to the average reader. It's a tricky one, but in the end, we need to keep in mind that ASSERT is an FAQ to help the reader better understand NPOV - if we find ourselves thinking NPOV says one thing and ASSERT says something else, then we probably need to reword ASSERT. It should provide useful examples of application, not confuse or add policy. Morphh (talk) 13:19, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- The case you present is not very helpful for this discussion about improving ASSERT. Most of us probably are not familiar enough with the literature on intersex conditions to be able to speak intelligently and with confidence on the subject. (And incidentally, the term "intersex" is strongly preferred over "intersexed"; "transgender" is increasingly preferred over "transgendered". These are adjectives, not past-participle forms of verbs; cp "maled", "femaled".) As you have described the case, there is a dispute over how to define intersex, so whether under the existing version or the proposed version of ASSERT, the definition of intersex would need to be attributed in text, with mention of competing definitions according to WEIGHT.
- The cases of how to treat evolution vs creation, how intersex is defined, or whether global climate change is in large measure due to combustion of fossil fuels and other human activities involve debates over competence and authority: Is one party more competent than the other(s) on the subject, such that the former's views should prevail? ASSERT is not intended to solve those debates; the purpose of ASSERT is to explain how the Wikipedia text should be written once the editors have reached a consensus on the questions posed in the debates.
- For the present discussion on how to word the sections of ASSERT on fact and opinion, it would be far more useful to consider examples of article topics in which there are clearly no good-faith disputes from any competent parties familiar with the subjects. Dezastru (talk) 14:48, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- I was just thinking that a good way to deal with nuance of definition in this case would be to just put (e.g. ...) before the definition. That way we're giving a brief understanding of fact and opinion, not asserting a definition. We do not want to redefine what a fact and opinion are here, just help the user understand what they are so the examples make sense. As NPOV does, we link to the articles. Morphh (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- The case you present is not very helpful for this discussion about improving ASSERT. Most of us probably are not familiar enough with the literature on intersex conditions to be able to speak intelligently and with confidence on the subject. (And incidentally, the term "intersex" is strongly preferred over "intersexed"; "transgender" is increasingly preferred over "transgendered". These are adjectives, not past-participle forms of verbs; cp "maled", "femaled".) As you have described the case, there is a dispute over how to define intersex, so whether under the existing version or the proposed version of ASSERT, the definition of intersex would need to be attributed in text, with mention of competing definitions according to WEIGHT.
Regarding the question which of my three categories "it" falls into, my answer is that the described situation is a complex blend of assertions and asserted definitions, and so there is no overall answer. Yes, I know that's how most real life situations are. So a whole lot of things would not get the special status afforded to "#1" items, or only small components of them would qualify. North8000 (talk) 15:54, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- To comment on an earlier comment, we know who won the 1995 Superbowl. That is an objective fact. We can report an WP:RS source who reports a poll saying that "Bush is considered a better/worse president than Roosevelt" (it doesn't matter here which ones!). This is subjective "fact", (and subject to change by the next poll).
- We need to extract ourselves from the jargon of insiders which is often constructed so there is only one answer on otherwise objective matter. On "intersexed," we can instead report genetic x vs y observations. That may result in an objective conclusion. We can also report a "poll" of folks who think otherwise (or who consider psychological factors which may not be quantifiable). But the latter is subjective (and therefore subject to change. x/y observations are not subject to change).
- Wikipedia should not be forced into someone else's grammar where it merely obfuscates the answer or predicts it. "Anti-choice" or "pro-abortion," to take two examples. Student7 (talk) 18:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
- North, if almost nothing except basic mathematics and very simple questions of history fall into category #1, then the definition isn't very useful to us. We need something that will let us report what textbooks say about the definition of intersexed as being accurate information, not as if it's merely an opinion held by some people. We need to be able to report that whales are mammals even though the swim in the sea, and that snails aren't fish, even though some EU laws declared them to be "fish, land-based". If "this English word means what the dictionary (or other competent source) says the word means" doesn't fall into the category of "fact", then we're not going to get anywhere. In fact, if the definition of fact isn't what competent sources normally claim it to mean, then we can't even usefully have a conversation about this.
- Student7, "extracting ourselves from the jargon of insiders" is a noble-sounding idea, but it's not very useful. That way lies people saying that they are cancer survivors because they had a pre-cancerous spot on their skin, or calling themselves "biologically intersexed" because it gets a more sympathetic social response than "transsexual" (which it apparently does). Definitions for some things are really crucial, because you can't meaningfully determine an article's subject if you don't. You don't want Cancer to be about cancer, pre-cancer, non-cancerous conditions that look similar, and non-cancerous conditions that have similar symptoms, plus hypochondria, malingering, and fraud. You want that article to be about the thing itself, and to not be about the other things (except in passing, since one useful way of defining something is to contrast it with related things, e.g., [malignant] cancer vs [benign] neoplasia). WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:19, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Consensus?
Morphh, everyone else involved: Was there actually consensus for the change (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ&diff=next&oldid=600656392)? --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 17:06, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- I think there is a general agreement that the proposed text is better, though I know you had some objections. There was some final discussion on possible wording of the "definition" (which was updated based on part of that discussion - some of it a problem in definition we had with the existing text), but that died down and the primary end point is that it shouldn't be a definition (in the sense that it defines it for NPOV) - they're examples meant to help the reader understand the topic. If there are gray areas on NPOV, which there always are, they should be discussed on the article talk and gain consensus. I'm open to other wording; I presented alternate wording in our prior discussion. The text is not locked, nor perfect - let's discuss a revision for making it better or if there is some compromise text that can be achieved. Morphh (talk) 20:40, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- I thought User:NewsAndEventsGuy and User:WhatamIdoing agreed with me; or, at least, I don't think my position is significantly different than theirs.
- If you still want to discuss, yes, I'm fine with that. For example, with what exactly did you disagree with above, when you said that you disagreed with my conclusion? For the B.B. King example, I think I had two premises: The claim that B.B. King plays some blues music should not be considered as an example of an opinion for the purposes of WP:YESPOV. And, that claim is something which is commonly considered to be subjective. Which I think validly gives the conclusion that a matter which is commonly considered to be subjective should not be considered as an example of an opinion for the purposes of WP:YESPOV, unless specifically quantified (semiformal: x is not a Y. x is a Z. Therefore: Not all Zs are Ys.) --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 22:02, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- I do not agree that human evolution is a good example of an opinion. On the rest of the changes... some might be improvements, some not. But that particular example is a disaster. If you want a clearer example, try something like "John Boehner believes that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 harmed Americans". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:22, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing, That example was pulled from WP:INTEXT. We were trying to use quotes that already exist in policy so as not to go through such a debate, but I personally don't care which example we use so long as it's concise, neutral and can convey the point simply. Morphh (talk) 01:12, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Specifically, that example was pulled from something explicitly marked as a bad example at INTEXT. It's not a good choice. Try the one with the green checkmark instead of the ones with the red Xs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:03, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing, I had the one with the green checkmark in there first, but someone suggested changing it (perhaps because it was wordy - can't recall). See Dezastru post above from 20:50, 27 March 2014 (UTC). Again, I'm fine with whatever. We can even make something new up. Just thought it would be easier to copy. Morphh (talk) 03:33, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Specifically, that example was pulled from something explicitly marked as a bad example at INTEXT. It's not a good choice. Try the one with the green checkmark instead of the ones with the red Xs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:03, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing, That example was pulled from WP:INTEXT. We were trying to use quotes that already exist in policy so as not to go through such a debate, but I personally don't care which example we use so long as it's concise, neutral and can convey the point simply. Morphh (talk) 01:12, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- I do not agree that human evolution is a good example of an opinion. On the rest of the changes... some might be improvements, some not. But that particular example is a disaster. If you want a clearer example, try something like "John Boehner believes that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 harmed Americans". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:22, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- If you still want to discuss, yes, I'm fine with that. For example, with what exactly did you disagree with above, when you said that you disagreed with my conclusion? For the B.B. King example, I think I had two premises: The claim that B.B. King plays some blues music should not be considered as an example of an opinion for the purposes of WP:YESPOV. And, that claim is something which is commonly considered to be subjective. Which I think validly gives the conclusion that a matter which is commonly considered to be subjective should not be considered as an example of an opinion for the purposes of WP:YESPOV, unless specifically quantified (semiformal: x is not a Y. x is a Z. Therefore: Not all Zs are Ys.) --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 22:02, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Litmus test, my primary area of editing interest is global warming and climate change. Seems to me that under the new text the statement "Earth's climate system is warming" is both
- Fact, because "there is no serious dispute" (beyond data-free blogs of various stripes, and yes, I can provide RSs that say it is an established scientific fact)
- Opinion, because despite the former being true, the statement is still considered by many to be highly subjective
So I think there's some fine tuning that is still needed, but I haven't puzzled over what to suggest. First interested to see others reactions so far. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:31, 16 April 2014 (UTC) PS Forgot to say that the rest of the revision is OK with me, though it may need further tweaking in light of what i just said.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:33, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
- Atethnekos, I think B.B. King playing the blues is both "information that is accepted as true and about which there is no serious dispute", thus I consider it a fact. It also follows that suggesting otherwise "would create the impression of doubt or disagreement where there is none". While the blues may be subjective, I also don't see that B.B. King playing the blues is "commonly considered to be subjective". So I don't see the conflict which you propose, nor would I expect any such challenge on the article talk page to gain any ground. I would ask you to look at NPOV (WP:YESPOV) and see what the policy directs. The FAQ should work to best reflect and give examples to the policy. This is why I thought it important to include e.g. (for the sake of example) in front of the definition to indicate we're just trying to help the reader understand the policy, not trying to define what a fact is or what an opinion is (as NPOV leaves it open). While not an great solution, an alternative option would be to just delete the definitions. We're going to have those issues that fall into that grey area that NewsAndEventsGuy mentions and I'm trying to think if any of the base definitions of an opinion would work better "a judgment", "viewpoint", or "interpretation of fact" to resolve the conflict. I'm open to those changes if you think it helps or alternative language, but I think we may just be running into the quandary that is present in NPOV, which at some point may require editorial judgement and discussion. It seems we're trying to define these terms as policy, when we shouldn't / don't need too, and come up with some wording where a fact is not really a fact and an opinion is not really an opinion depending on subjective judgements - I just don't see that working, but I'm open to suggestions. Morphh (talk) 01:12, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Concerning Darwin: How that example is imported from WP:INTEXT does seem odd. WP:INTEXT uses that as an example of what we should not do, and the change treats it as an example of what we should do.
- B.B. King and blues: So you think that defining blues as inclusive of some of B.B. King's music is not commonly considered to be subjective. I just don't see this. I did give the cite above, which said that defining blues is subjective. Do you have something which contradicts that? And, intuitively, I really think that's right: Most blues fans when asked to justify their judgement that something is blues will give the cliché: "I know it when I hear it". Take "The Thrill Is Gone". So we rightly say that that is blues. Do you really think that any source for that description made that judgement by some objective standard? Don't you think that it is more likely that any such person simply listened to it and then instinctively responded, "That's blues", and wrote that impression into her description? --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 03:04, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Atethnekos & WhatamIdoing, The Darwin example in INTEXT was showing two viewpoints (opinions) but giving equal validity, which is what it was saying not to do since the first is a majority view and the second a fringe view. We used it in a different way to just show a single viewpoint / opinion, so it's not the same thing. They said it was a viewpoint and we use it as a viewpoint, but I get the contentious nature of the subject - as I said, I don't care if we change it. If people want to debate that natural selection is undisputed fact, ok, I just wanted a simple example and was trying to draw on ones we already use. As for the blues Atethnekos, I think you're overanalyzing it. Elvis Presley was Rock, Michael Jackson was Pop, B.B. King was Blues. We don't have to get into the subjective nature of what makes music a particular style to say that Michael Jackson is considered the King of Pop or that he was a pop artist - IMO, it's an accepted truth. Again, I'm not married to "commonly considered subjective" if another defining term regarding judgement, viewpoint is preferable. Morphh (talk) 03:27, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Natural selection is a "fact". Like all facts, it might be wrong (see, e.g., all previous models of the atom) but, even if it is someday demonstrate to be wrong, it is not an "opinion". "Fact" is not a synonym for "truth". WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:56, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- You're taking my statement out of context. I was obviously referencing the quote regarding human evolution, but this is an unnecessary discussion. Morphh (talk) 16:37, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- I'm confused then. Didn't you just say ("We used it in a different way to just show a single viewpoint / opinion")—and this is what the change suggests as well—that Darwin's viewpoint that "humans evolved through natural selection" is an opinion?
- INLINE called it a viewpoint and used in-text attribution (making the statement a fact by attributing it to Darwin). His view was considered an opinion regarding origins - that humans evolved through natural selection vs the other viewpoint that humans were created by a God. I'm not religious and don't believe in creation, but it seems to me to be a debatable point. The example was showing an INLINE attribution to make an opinion a fact, but apparently "humans evolved through natural selection" is a fact and there is no creationism debate. Anyway, I don't care to debate it - it doesn't matter to me, we've all agreed that it should change. We just need to select a new example. Morphh (talk) 18:54, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- See below: "view" or "viewpoint" has never meant "opinion"; this seems to be why you made this interpretation. Opinions are a proper subset of viewpoints. No policy or guideline in a state reached by consensus has ever called anything like "humans evolved through natural selection" an opinion. It's always been considered a fact for policy. They've called it a view, yes, but that's just a great example for showing that "view" and "opinion" are not synonymous in policy. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 00:34, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- INLINE called it a viewpoint and used in-text attribution (making the statement a fact by attributing it to Darwin). His view was considered an opinion regarding origins - that humans evolved through natural selection vs the other viewpoint that humans were created by a God. I'm not religious and don't believe in creation, but it seems to me to be a debatable point. The example was showing an INLINE attribution to make an opinion a fact, but apparently "humans evolved through natural selection" is a fact and there is no creationism debate. Anyway, I don't care to debate it - it doesn't matter to me, we've all agreed that it should change. We just need to select a new example. Morphh (talk) 18:54, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Blues: Well, yes, I agree that we shouldn't have to get into the nature of musical genre judgement, whether it is subjective or objective. But I think that's true for every judgement—musical genre judgements are just a counter-example to the doctrine of using subjective-ness of a claim to determine whether it is an opinion or not. As a wider thought: Aren't opinions and facts supposed to be mutually exclusive and jointly exhaustive categories? So if any proposition "that is accepted as true and about which there is no serious dispute" is an example of a fact, then why not just use the negation of that as an example of an opinion? The negation would be: "any proposition that is not accepted as true or about which there is serious dispute". --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:28, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Morphh, it's a very necessary discussion. We cannot use that example. Natural selection is what we call "a fact". You have given it as an example of an opinion. In doing that, you're going to completely confuse some readers of that FAQ. We need a different example, and we need it as soon as possible. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:41, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- That wouldn't work - "any proposition that is not accepted as true" would be perceived to be false, which is not the case or definition of an opinion. Several of us have also brought up the use of the term "serious" and interpretation of "weighty" as a definition and I wouldn't want to double down on what constitutes a serious dispute, essentially turning what is a fact/opinion into a debate of WP:WEIGHT. Here is our lede for opinion (reference for YESPOV) "In general, an opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement about matters commonly considered to be subjective, i.e. based on that which is less than absolutely certain, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. What distinguishes fact from opinion is that facts are verifiable, i.e. can be objectively proven to have occurred." Our example should be an concise summary of this. What about if we left off "judgement" from my last suggestion and just went with:
When a statement is an opinion (e.g. a matter which is subject to dispute, a viewpoint, or interpretation of fact), ...
- Since NPOV uses the term viewpoint to describe policy regarding opinions, including that would seem uncontroversial and "interpretation of fact" seems to include what you suggested. It's directly pulled from what NPOV links for this policy. Morphh (talk) 22:11, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- You think that "viewpoint" and "opinion" are synonymous in policy. That's not right at all. "Viewpoint" (or just plain "view") in this usage has always referred to any proposition from a source. That humans evolved through natural selection is a viewpoint. But it's a fact, not an opinion. WP:YESPOV divides up the set of viewpoints into subsets of "facts" and "opinions". They are terms of art for the purposes of policy, not terms defined as they would be by the procedures of article writing. Indeed, that content in the article opinion has no sources given to back it up, and it is at least not neutral. You would never find a preponderance of reliable sources that define "opinion" in that way. The very first definition of "opinion" which the Oxford English Dictionary lists is simply: "a view held about a particular issue". Any belief at all fits that definition, whether that belief is true, false, subjective, objective, or none of the above.
- YLet's call that opinion* for clarity. So we say that the opinion* of Brahe was the Tychonic system, and the opinion* of Galileo was heliocentrism. Brahe's opinion* was false, Galileo's opinion* was true. Is Galileo's opinion* considered an "opinion" for the purposes of NPOV? Of course not, it's a fact. Why? Not because it doesn't fit the meaning of opinion* (since it does), but because our reliable sources overwhelmingly affirm that viewpoint. Were I rightly to improve the opinion article to reflect this, would then the meaning of "opinion" in WP:NPOV change? Of course not, because it's meaning has nothing to do with how the article defines it. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 00:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- I don't want to get into Evolution as fact and theory debate or that half the population has a different viewpoint (opinion) on origins - it's a disputed topic, which I concede would be a poor example here. I can't say I agree with your interpretation of definition. Perhaps it's something to bring forward as clarification in the NPOV policy - to define it, maybe include as a footnote. While I find it a weakened example of such a commonly accept concept, I'd compromise and agree to remove "a viewpoint" and just say "When a statement is an opinion (e.g. a matter which is subject to dispute or an interpretation of fact), ...". Morphh (talk) 01:19, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- @NewsAndEventsGuy:, @SMALLJIM:, @Dezastru:, @North8000: perhaps you can offer your thoughts up to this point and if any of the recent suggestions would improve the FAQ. Morphh (talk) 01:31, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- I'm confused then. Didn't you just say ("We used it in a different way to just show a single viewpoint / opinion")—and this is what the change suggests as well—that Darwin's viewpoint that "humans evolved through natural selection" is an opinion?
- You're taking my statement out of context. I was obviously referencing the quote regarding human evolution, but this is an unnecessary discussion. Morphh (talk) 16:37, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Natural selection is a "fact". Like all facts, it might be wrong (see, e.g., all previous models of the atom) but, even if it is someday demonstrate to be wrong, it is not an "opinion". "Fact" is not a synonym for "truth". WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:56, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Atethnekos & WhatamIdoing, The Darwin example in INTEXT was showing two viewpoints (opinions) but giving equal validity, which is what it was saying not to do since the first is a majority view and the second a fringe view. We used it in a different way to just show a single viewpoint / opinion, so it's not the same thing. They said it was a viewpoint and we use it as a viewpoint, but I get the contentious nature of the subject - as I said, I don't care if we change it. If people want to debate that natural selection is undisputed fact, ok, I just wanted a simple example and was trying to draw on ones we already use. As for the blues Atethnekos, I think you're overanalyzing it. Elvis Presley was Rock, Michael Jackson was Pop, B.B. King was Blues. We don't have to get into the subjective nature of what makes music a particular style to say that Michael Jackson is considered the King of Pop or that he was a pop artist - IMO, it's an accepted truth. Again, I'm not married to "commonly considered subjective" if another defining term regarding judgement, viewpoint is preferable. Morphh (talk) 03:27, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
- Atethnekos, I think B.B. King playing the blues is both "information that is accepted as true and about which there is no serious dispute", thus I consider it a fact. It also follows that suggesting otherwise "would create the impression of doubt or disagreement where there is none". While the blues may be subjective, I also don't see that B.B. King playing the blues is "commonly considered to be subjective". So I don't see the conflict which you propose, nor would I expect any such challenge on the article talk page to gain any ground. I would ask you to look at NPOV (WP:YESPOV) and see what the policy directs. The FAQ should work to best reflect and give examples to the policy. This is why I thought it important to include e.g. (for the sake of example) in front of the definition to indicate we're just trying to help the reader understand the policy, not trying to define what a fact is or what an opinion is (as NPOV leaves it open). While not an great solution, an alternative option would be to just delete the definitions. We're going to have those issues that fall into that grey area that NewsAndEventsGuy mentions and I'm trying to think if any of the base definitions of an opinion would work better "a judgment", "viewpoint", or "interpretation of fact" to resolve the conflict. I'm open to those changes if you think it helps or alternative language, but I think we may just be running into the quandary that is present in NPOV, which at some point may require editorial judgement and discussion. It seems we're trying to define these terms as policy, when we shouldn't / don't need too, and come up with some wording where a fact is not really a fact and an opinion is not really an opinion depending on subjective judgements - I just don't see that working, but I'm open to suggestions. Morphh (talk) 01:12, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Proposal: revision of section on Impartial Tone
Current version:
The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view. Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone.
Proposed revision:
The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view.Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone.To avoid lending the impression that Wikipedia takes a particular position on a controversial matter, in describing controversies, do not use long quotations when a shorter paraphrase can convey the same information.
New version would be:
The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view. To avoid lending the impression that Wikipedia takes a particular position on a controversial matter, in describing controversies, do not use long quotations when a shorter paraphrase can convey the same information.
The current version of WP:IMPARTIAL is a little unclear. Some editors seem to interpret it as meaning that the use of quotations should generally be avoided in Wikipedia articles.
As I read it, however, the section's actual intent is to discourage the use of overly long quotations when a shorter rephrasing can convey the same information. (The language was introduced in 2008 by Lawrencekhoo, who at the time, commenting on the use of a quotation from a newspaper editorial, wrote that "Editorials do not have to use NPV language, but we at Wikipedia must do so WP:NPV. Therefore, we should not quote extensively, as this will 1) introduce POV language into the article, and 2) make it seem that wikipedia advocates the poition of the person quoted. See WP:QUOTE".[6] At the time that that post was made, the WP:QUOTE essay said: "while quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Too many quotes take away from the encyclopedic feel of Wikipedia. Also, editors should avoid long quotations if they can keep them short. Long quotations not only add to the length of many articles that are already too long, but they also crowd the actual article and remove attention from other information" and "when editing an article, a contributor should try to avoid quotations when ... a summary of a quote would be better. This may be due to lack of importance, lengthy articles, etc. On lengthy articles, editors should strive to keep long quotations to a minimum, opting to paraphrase and work smaller portions of quotes into articles".[7])
So why not just say that explicitly in the policy statement? There are times when someone's point of view is most effectively conveyed through the use of a direct quote, especially on controversial matters, where editors have to take extra care to ensure that any attempt to restate what was meant does not alter the original intent of the speaker or writer in a non-neutral way. We shouldn't be removing quotations needlessly when the quotations are clear and relatively succinct. Dezastru (talk) 23:55, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- I have two concerns, first, it may make sense to replace a quote with an equally long paraphrase if the quote is especially incendiary. Second, I would remove the word "long" from "do not use long quotations when a shorter paraphrase can convey the same information." It's unclear how long a quotation must be to be a 'long quotation'. If a shorter paraphrase conveys the same information we should use the paraphrase. LK (talk) 11:31, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
- Lawrence (LK), sure, quotations should not be cherry-picked to find the most outrageous statement that has been made on a topic. But, on the other hand, we should not be enshrining at the policy level the practice of paraphrasing in order to remove what an editor feels is "especially incendiary language." A paraphrase should never change the meaning of the original statement. There are times that a speaker/writer intends their statement to be polemical, and the precise language that they have used in the statement is an important part of the story. In such situations, the best way to describe the message in a Wikipedia article may be with a direct quote, not a paraphrase. Dezastru (talk) 16:57, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- I tend to disagree. An actual quote often conveys the quoted person's intentions more clearly than any paraphrase, a paraphrase runs the risk of distortion of the quotee's intent. Of course, so does cherry-picking quotes or taking them out of context -- indeed sometimes the only way to accurately convey the intention is either to paraphrase carefully or include a quote much too long for a Wikipedia article. But I don't think the text should so heavily favor paraphrases over quotes. Perhaps:
The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view. To avoid lending the impression that Wikipedia takes a particular position on a controversial matter, in describing controversies, do not use quotations, particularly long quotations, in such a way as to imply endorsement or WP:UNDUE weight to one side or faction in a controversy. Quotations should be balanced in length and prominence. Careful paraphrases may allow a position to be expressed in less space than any actual quote could achieve.
- What do you feel about that version? DES (talk) 16:23, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
- DES, I completely agree with you that sometimes using a quotation is preferable to paraphrasing because a quotation will more faithfully convey the quoted person's intentions than any paraphrase. I also agree that the text should not favor paraphrases over quotes so heavily. There are a couple of problems with the text you propose, however. Doesn't the second sentence seem tautological (kind of like saying, "red chairs are red")? The phrase "imply endorsement or WP:UNDUE weight to one side or faction in a controversy" is just saying the same thing as "take a particular position on a controversial matter." Perhaps the dependent clause needs to be deleted—which would leave, eg, "In describing controversies, do not use quotations, particularly long quotations, in such a way as to imply endorsement or WP:UNDUE weight to one side or faction." Or maybe the main clause would need to be changed to state more specifically how not to use quotations. The second problem involves the third sentence. Quotations should be balanced in length and prominence—balanced compared to what? Dezastru (talk) 16:59, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- You have a point, Dezastru. The second sentence was in essence saying "be particularly careful that use of quotations does not compromise NPOV", or that was my intent, at least. Let me try again:
The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view. To avoid lending the impression that Wikipedia takes a particular position on a controversial matter, be particularly careful in the use of quotations. The use of extensive quotes from a particular speaker or point of view may seem to imply endorsement of that view by Wikipedia. Do not use quotations, particularly long quotations, in such a way as to imply endorsement or give WP:UNDUE weight to one side or faction in a controversy. Quotations should be balanced in length and prominence, so that the most prominent or widely held views generally have the largest number or length of quotations, and WP:FRINGE views might not be represented by any quotations. Careful paraphrases may allow a position to be expressed in less space than any actual quote could achieve. However, iconic, well known, or particularly vivid quotes are often better if not paraphrased. Quotations should be representative of the author's views or of the statement from which they are taken, they should never be used out of context so as to distort the speaker's or writer's views.
- Now what do you all think? DES (talk) 19:44, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- I think that's fine, but it's about 3 times longer than the current one. I think we're running into WP:CREEP here. Any way to cut it down to just a few sentences? LK (talk) 05:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- DES, I think the line that says "Quotations should be balanced in length and prominence, so that the most prominent or widely held views generally have the largest number or length of quotations, and WP:FRINGE views might not be represented by any quotations" should come out. While I understand the intent behind it, I can envision situations in which it could be misapplied. How about the following, which is a bit shorter that the last suggestion, but captures most of the same principles:
The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view. When describing controversies, be especially careful in the use of quotations. Avoid quoting extensively from any individual speaker or point of view, which might lend the impression that Wikipedia endorses a particular position. Careful paraphrasing may help maintain an impartial tone by allowing a position to be expressed in less space than a direct quotation would require; however, iconic, well-known, or particularly vivid quotes are often better left unparaphrased. Quotations should be representative of the author's or speaker's views and should never be used out of context so as to distort the original meaning.
(Thanks for working on this, by the way.) Dezastru (talk) 21:17, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- I think that's fine, but it's about 3 times longer than the current one. I think we're running into WP:CREEP here. Any way to cut it down to just a few sentences? LK (talk) 05:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- DES, I completely agree with you that sometimes using a quotation is preferable to paraphrasing because a quotation will more faithfully convey the quoted person's intentions than any paraphrase. I also agree that the text should not favor paraphrases over quotes so heavily. There are a couple of problems with the text you propose, however. Doesn't the second sentence seem tautological (kind of like saying, "red chairs are red")? The phrase "imply endorsement or WP:UNDUE weight to one side or faction in a controversy" is just saying the same thing as "take a particular position on a controversial matter." Perhaps the dependent clause needs to be deleted—which would leave, eg, "In describing controversies, do not use quotations, particularly long quotations, in such a way as to imply endorsement or WP:UNDUE weight to one side or faction." Or maybe the main clause would need to be changed to state more specifically how not to use quotations. The second problem involves the third sentence. Quotations should be balanced in length and prominence—balanced compared to what? Dezastru (talk) 16:59, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
I think it would be helpful if this recent edit by me was considered in this debate. It is not necessarily the extent of the quote that matters, a short quote (in the example I have given -- one word) can be used to present a biased POV. -- PBS (talk) 20:08, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Given my example, I think the last proposed paragraph can be paired down to
The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view. When describing controversies, be especially careful in the use of quotations.
That is all that is needed in policy the rest is more suitable for guidance. -- PBS (talk) 20:08, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- No one has argued that quotations can only be misused if they are long. The issue being addressed is how to avoid misapplication of existing rules for use of quotations. The existing language seems to have been intended to fix a problem that primarily involved imbalance of tone due to use of long quotations or extensive use of quotations from a single point of view. The remedies we have been proposing would help remove some of the ambiguity in the language of the rules. Shortening the language so that it says only "When describing controversies, be especially careful in the use of quotations", without giving any explanation of what 'being careful' means, wouldn't really help. It would take us back to the situation that Lawrence was originally trying to fix. Dezastru (talk) 17:06, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
If there are no further objectons or comments, I will change the language to the version I proposed on 20 February. Dezastru (talk) 23:43, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- I do not know how you come to the conclusion that you have a consensus for change given the comments that have been made. -- PBS (talk) 13:08, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Comments on the proposal
Well I don't know. With this apparently uncontroversial change, you'd be overturning longstanding policy. For at least 5 years Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Impartial tone has recommended that we should not quote from the participants in a heated dispute: you want to change it to allow quotes from those participants. A few concerns that come immediately to mind are:
- Won't the process of deciding whether a particular quote is "iconic" or "particularly vivid", or if it is truly "representative of the author's views" cause a lot of drama?
- If side A is allowed to have a quote, then side B will naturally want one too; leading to side A demanding a riposte, and so on...
- What about translations of quotes in other languages - there's lots of potential for disagreement over exact meanings.
Since this proposal would affect our most hotly-disputed articles, I think it should be exposed to a far wider range of editors than it has been so far. I suggest you raise it at WP:VPP. —SMALLJIM 00:52, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
- No change needed. Before changing a core policy, there should be an explanation of what the problem is: what dispute in what article shows there is a problem with the current wording? There are many battles where one group defends the subject of an article, and another attacks it. To mention one example, here is a case where participants would love to insert something like the following in an article on person X: 'Professor Y of Impressive University wrote, "X is an incompetent fraud who also opposes LGBT rights"'. The problem is, it turns out that X and Y have been at each other's throats for years, and there is no way editors can "neutrally" quote what they say about each other—secondary sources are needed to sum up X. If the dispute between X and Y is notable, it may be fine to quote each of them, but otherwise Y's views need to be expressed neutrally, if at all. Johnuniq (talk) 00:58, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Continuing this discussion at the Village Pump. Dezastru (talk) 23:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
Procedural comment This is not how things are done. You sould have posted an invitation for people to join the discussion in the corresponding talk page, Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view. Now the discussion is broken into two parts, making it difficult to keep track of arguments. I suggest to cut and paste the Village Pump section to the place where it IMO belongs. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:11, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support PBS "pared" version. I believe in letting BLP subjects have their say; often, this involves quotes, some of which can be controversial. Putting a muzzle on the subject the moment you deem what he says to be 'too controversial' does not seem NPOV to me. Failing to allow his opponent to respond would be just as wrong. Now, I can understand that the policy might try to disallow quotes from being chosen solely for being inflammatory, as opposed to being noted by external sources or providing a good overview of an issue, but I trust the users to make a better decision on their own more than I trust people here to put all that into a policy that won't be misused. Wnt (talk) 17:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
- Definitely believe some more needs to be said about this. I coincidentally just raised a similar issue in an overly dramatic way at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Ban_lead_quotations where quotations are referred to as 'facts'. It just seems too easy for people to avoid anything approaching NPOV (not to mention creating OR) by cherrypicking a quotation from some person or some piece of work or some process (e.g. legal). And quotations in leads do seem particularly exasperating - it's as if editors are lulled into thinking (or in some cases may want to give the impression) that because it's a quote it's been substantiated/authorized and doesn't need to be covered properly in the body in a balanced way like anything else. So I do like DES's informal summary "be particularly careful that use of quotations does not compromise NPOV" whenever there are multiple viewpoints (especially if controversial, though I imagine different people differ in what they perceive as a controversy). Sighola6 (talk) 22:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Nobel Peace Prize Nominations
Discussion at the Village Pump
- Actually, It is archived and forgotten: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_112#.22Nominated_for_a_Nobel_Peace_Prize.22. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:27, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
The media and most people think they are notable, but they aren't. Any professor down to and including a community college assistant history prof can nominate someone. The Nobel committee does not comment on them or even release a list of nominees for 50 years. Should there be an explicit policy on this? My feeling is mentions should be shot on sight unless they are reliably sourced to notable nominators. - Richfife (talk) 21:12, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- Well, for wikipedia purposes it does not matter whether the nomination came from professor's girlfriend pet. Only the amount of media coverage and the impact is what matters, i.e., whether this fact is reasonably encyclopedic. A good example would be a nomination which was widely ridiculed. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:41, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- Re: "The media and most people think they are notable, but they aren't" - It seems you are confusing the issues of notability of a person it their domain and the notability in the sense of notoriety. If "most people" think they are notable, then they are "notable for being notable". Staszek Lem (talk) 20:44, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
A comment to an argument from the Village Pump about the 50 year limit: " names of the nominees and other information about the nominations cannot be revealed until 50 years later" - this rule applies to the Nobel Committee, not to others, and especially not to wikipedia. This is clearly seen from the corresponding exact quotation from the statute given somewhat below in the ext link. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:36, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- Inside that 50-year window (and with a narrow exception) the rule also applies to the nominator. If the person who sends in the nomination can't talk about, and the folks that receive it (the committee) can not talk about it, then any noise in RSs about a nomination are likely buzzing about a rumor. In my view, rumors lack WP:WEIGHT all by themselves. The only way to talk about RS buzzing about a rumor is to show the existence of the rumor is notable, by reporting it as a notable rumor, and explaining why that rumor is important enough to include in an encyclopedia. Out of curiousity, why is this being brought up again at another venue? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:43, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
- I was surprised to learn that the other nominees were secret. It makes sense for the committee to gag everybody. It doesn't want to be second-guessed.
- The reasons for wanting this are most likely political. Unlike (say) the Washington Post and the NY Times which honestly admits they are editorially liberal, the Nobel Prize Committee pretends to be politically neutral, when it is obviously not. "Recently" a politician was selected, reportedly "over" a woman who had "saved thousands of children from the Holocaust." This makes a great report and (now) I have no idea whether it is true or not; whether the passed-over nominee actually existed.
- But we do know that the committee rather deliberately waited until the unlikable woman who really discovered DNA, was dead, before awarding the Prize to Crick and Watson. So the selection committee is clearly not beyond chicanery, whether political or not. And no political conservative/tory or whatever has received a prize in the last few decades or more. But we can only report WP:RS and if nominees are "only rumors", that might not be enough. Student7 (talk) 20:38, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- NewsAndEventsGuy, where are you getting the information that nominators are not permitted to disclose whom they have nominated for 50 years? I don't see that at the website linked above. Dezastru (talk) 14:12, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- From the process FAQ which reads {{quote|
- "Are the nominations made public?
- "The statutes of the Nobel Foundation restrict disclosure of information about the nominations, whether publicly or privately, for 50 years. The restriction concerns the nominees and nominators, as well as investigations and opinions related to the award of a prize." (bold added)
- NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:45, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- From the process FAQ which reads {{quote|
- NewsAndEventsGuy, where are you getting the information that nominators are not permitted to disclose whom they have nominated for 50 years? I don't see that at the website linked above. Dezastru (talk) 14:12, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Here's how I read that: The statutes of the Nobel Foundation restrict members of the Foundation from releasing information concerning those who were nominated and by whom they were nominated, as well as any deliberations of the members of the Foundation concerning the nominations, for 50 years. Dezastru (talk) 19:36, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Well that's probably accurate. The fine print is here, under "secrecy rules". So I might have been mistaken earlier, and maybe my local plumber is allowed to claim that they nominated me and can claim he is a qualified nominator after all. However, there's no way to get verification of either claim from the Nobel committee, so those two statements remain unverifiable assertions on the part of my plumber. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:44, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- It may vary by prize.
- For the Peace Prize, which has an open nomination system, they say, "The Committee does not itself announce the names of nominees, neither to the media nor to the candidates themselves. In so far as certain names crop up in the advance speculations as to who will be awarded any given year's Prize, this is either sheer guesswork or information put out by the person or persons behind the nomination."
- For the science and economics prizes, they invite about three thousand people to submit nominations each year, and those invitations are "confidential forms". None of the pages about the prizes involving "confidential forms" carries this statement about nominators disclosing anything. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:59, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Well that's probably accurate. The fine print is here, under "secrecy rules". So I might have been mistaken earlier, and maybe my local plumber is allowed to claim that they nominated me and can claim he is a qualified nominator after all. However, there's no way to get verification of either claim from the Nobel committee, so those two statements remain unverifiable assertions on the part of my plumber. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:44, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Here's how I read that: The statutes of the Nobel Foundation restrict members of the Foundation from releasing information concerning those who were nominated and by whom they were nominated, as well as any deliberations of the members of the Foundation concerning the nominations, for 50 years. Dezastru (talk) 19:36, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Rumors may be worth mentioning briefly in some articles, but they should be attributed: "Joe Greedy says on his website that he was nominated for The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for his invention of wet water" or "Lucifer Lipps says that he nominated the captain of the Titanic for the Nobel Peace Prize". But otherwise, I think they should be avoided. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:18, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
What happens when WP:BALANCE and WP:BALASPS contradict?
Recently, Binksternet and I engaged in an edit war on the Syngenta article. We ended up reporting each other on the Edit War board. But this post isn't about the event; instead, I believe that we uncovered a possible conflict between the WP:BALANCE and WP:BALASPS guidelines. Based on the guidelines I honestly believe we both had at least some justification for our edits.
Essentially, the argument revolves around what to do when a critical side of a discussion, while public, is all but ignored by media. (Or, to put it another way, it revolves around what to do when media unanimously chooses to air only one viewpoint in a conflict.) In this example, scientist Tyrone Hayes made allegations in interviews with The New Yorker and Democracy Now that Syngenta had threatened, harassed, and attempted to intimidate/squelch his research. Notably, neither The New Yorker, Democracy Now, or any of the dozens of (in my opinion) fringe and activist sites that rehashed the allegations allowed Syngenta to respond, or attempted in any way to verify any of Hayes' allegations. (The fact Hayes' own employer had found the allegations "not credible" also wasn't mentioned on Democracy Now.) As a result of this media blackout, Syngenta distributed a press release along with copies of letters it sent to Hayes, his employer, and Democracy Now refuting the allegations and requesting public retractions. However, only two sites - Forbes.com and one other whose name I've forgotten - covered that release, and Binksterest discounted those two as potentially COI or dubious. In summary, reputable mass media only covered Hayes' side of things, and chose to ignore, and silence, Syngenta. This left the primary source (press release and letters) as the only citable representation of Syngenta's viewpoint in the Syngenta article.
This situation seems to have caused a conflict between the WP:BALANCE and WP:BALASPS guidelines. WP:BALANCE states that "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence". WP:BALASPS states that "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with weight appropriate to its significance to the subject". The first guideline would support Binksternet in removing Syngenta's response from the Syngenta article. But WP:BALASPS would support my inclusion of Syngenta' response, to avoid giving Hayes "undue weight" and allow Syngenta's response "weight appropriate to its significance". To further support my viewpoint, I believe that airing Hayes' allegations in the Syngenta article, and in the media in general, without airing Syngenta's response is both irresponsible and the epitome of bias.
Am I right that, in this situation, the two guidelines are in conflict, and if so, what should have been done? Do the guidelines need revised/clarified? What should happen with the Syngenta article? Jtrevor99 (talk) 22:04, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- You ought to be more honest about the Forbes piece which was discounted by your friend Jytdog, not by me. I was willing to host the views as long as counter views were aired. Of course you know that the source was indeed Forbes but the writer was Jon Entine who has been identified as being paid by Syngenta to spin the company's public relations. The Center for Media and Democracy (CMD) gained access to a lot of Syngenta's papers because of a lawsuit making the communications public. The CMD published a piece called "Syngenta's Paid Third Party Pundits Spin the 'News' on Atrazine", which named several paid PR agents for Syngenta, but not Jon Entine. Tom Philpott of Mother Jones looked further into the papers and concluded that Entine had a conflict of interest,[8] because a book he wrote in defense of Syngenta's product atrazine was paid for by Syngenta. Rachel Aviv writing for the New Yorker also found Entine to have a conflict of interest because of his monetary connection to agribusiness chemical companies.[9] Note that Jon Entine used to be active on Wikipedia as Runjonrun, editing his own biography and other articles such as the one about his organization NGOWatch.
- Regarding the main question on the table, I think that an organization's own announcements should not be used to settle a controversy. Instead, WP:SECONDARY sources should be used, as they have analyzed the significance of the primary sources and have determined a balance. Announcements by an organization should be used sparingly and when the issue is not controversial. Binksternet (talk) 23:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, the Syngenta changelog itself notes that you called the Forbes article into question. Meanwhile, I honestly didn't remember that Jytdog questioned it as well; if I had, I would have stated that you both did. Either way, please do not continue that discussion here - it belongs on the talk page where we're already discussing this. Reopening it here just distracts, and detracts, from the question I've posted, and inhibits the neutral response I'm hoping outsiders will provide. Keep in mind too that I'm posting this conversation out of legitimate interest to modify my actions in future if necessary; I hope you will be willing to consider the same. That said, your second paragraph IS conducive to the conversation; while I disagree with your opinion for several reasons in this situation, I'll wait for others' comments first. Jtrevor99 (talk) 00:40, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
So we've got this mutual personalized finger pointing between the scientist and the company reminiscent of anti-science tobacco pushback, climate pushback, and a long list of other pushbacks from corporations meanwhile the article states in wikivoice that the scientist's "research showed that the Syngenta-produced chemical atrazine was responsible for abnormal development of reproductive organs in frogs". I'm not well versed in that literature, but has the scientific community in general accepted those findings, or is the wider scientific jury still out? Meanwhile, is the question whether the company's primary materials RS for the companies' position? Seems like a self-statement about one's own views to me, so I'd have to say "yes"... but only to the extent the company says those things, and not to their validity. Meanwhile, the article needs tweaking to inform reader not just that Hayes' reported research findings between frog biology and atrazine but whether those findings have been as widely accepted as the wikivoice in the present version suggests? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 09:44, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- In short, the jury's still out on atrazine safety. You'll want to hear Binksternet's side of this as well, of course, but here's my take. Several scientists have gone on record stating that Hayes' results are unreproducible, and that Hayes himself has had trouble reproducing them. There are also questions about Hayes' methodology, such as whether he exposed the frogs to atrazine at levels far higher than could occur in nature. Hayes also has refused to share his raw data with anyone, including other scientists, so that they can examine it. Finally, Syngenta repeatedly claims 6,000 studies (actually 6,611 at last count) that have concluded no health or environmental danger exists when atrazine is used appropriately; the EPA agreed with Syngenta. On the flip side, Binksternet has told me that several scientists have reproduced Hayes' results (though I haven't seen this yet), that roughly half of the 6,611 studies are questionable due to being funded directly or indirectly by Syngenta, and that the EU did not agree that there was no danger.
- To add to the drama, Berkeley (Hayes' employer) has censured Hayes for past unverifiable claims against Syngenta, and numerous examples of Hayes' physical threats aimed against specific Syngenta personnel are available in the public record. This, and the desire to present an unbiased article, has been the motivating factor behind my behavior in this debate: I believe Hayes is guilty of the very things he is claiming against Syngenta, while Syngenta is not.
- Four other quick things. First, I'm not sure what you mean by "RS" (sorry, I'm new). Second, Binksternet does have a good point in the above that he did not delete every reference to Syngenta's response that I tried to post--just some. Third, I did try to come up with a counterpoint on Hayes' atrazine research but that proved contentious - it was part of the edit war and did not survive in the present copy. Fourth, you're absolutely right that the Syngenta press release / letters are a self-statement about one's own views; I won't try to debate that. I WILL argue, however, that Hayes' comments in Democracy Now and The New Yorker fit in the exact same category. Jtrevor99 (talk) 15:22, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- (A) Your first paragraph (staring "in short") would be better addressed at the relevant article talk pages.
- (B) RS = WP:RELIABLE SOURCE... since you're new, you should read that twice, and then start over the next day; everything you say in the article must be supported by an RS
- (C) When you equate one's own selfpub statements about one's own views with that of the journalists and editors at Democracy Now, I think it's somewhat apparent that you're new and are equating your own opinion of the editorial slant of that news outlet with what wikipedia calls a WP:RELIABLE SOURCE. But just because you hear something on that radio program, or read something in New Yorker doesn't mean it is automatically RS. Each thing has to go thru the RS analysis. Whether you like the slant different outlets adopt doesn't count, and we're all prone to like/dislike things according to Confirmation bias. Better to understand the RS policy and talk each dispute thru with references to the content in that policy.
- Hope that helps NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:44, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- As a general rule, this kind of (real-world) dispute results in an article with a formulation along the lines of, "Willy Whistleblower says X, and Widgets Inc. denies the allegations". You can expand the sentences as needed to describe the dispute. Which one of those gets the most attention depends on which one gets the most real-world media (and other source) attention. If, for example, everyone's all excited about the former employee's allegations, then those get more space (and vice versa).
- In the meantime, it's a good idea to remember that WP:There is no deadline. However this plays out in the real world, it will eventually end up in Wikipedia that way. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:30, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- I like that summation, but see WP:RECENTISM. Quality of any given RS doesn't really depend on a lot of other editors, all wanting to sell copy, saying the same thing. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 05:46, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Logical contradiction
The sentence "we consider a viewpoint's prevalence among reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public" is illogical. The opposite of reliable sources is questionable sources, and the opposite of general public is experts in that area. You can't logically contrast sources to people. How about changing the sentence to "we consider a viewpoint's prevalence among scholars or experts (reported by reliable sources), not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public". Darx9url (talk) 06:49, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
- It's not illogical: "We consider a viewpoint's prevalence among publications, not its prevalence among people" is perfectly logical. And "reliable source" is correctly contrasted with "you, the people you know, and/or what you believe that the general public believes". Editors and the general public are indeed "questionable sources" as far as Wikipedia is concerned.
- But see the definition of "source" for content policies at WP:SOURCES: a "source" includes experts (and also people whom you might consider to be the opposite of an expert, but who have nonetheless managed to get reputable publishers to publish their views). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:36, 16 April 2014 (UTC)