Michael Glass (talk | contribs) →UK units: Reply to WCM |
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::WCM's edit should remain because the pre-Glass statement indicated it was a toss-up which unit should go first in the cases listed, when in fact, the imperial unit should usually go first in those cases. And there is no doubt in my mind that every time Michael Glass edits this guideline it is for the purpose of advancing his campaign to metricate the world, starting with Wikipedia. [[User:Jc3s5h|Jc3s5h]] ([[User talk:Jc3s5h|talk]]) 02:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC) |
::WCM's edit should remain because the pre-Glass statement indicated it was a toss-up which unit should go first in the cases listed, when in fact, the imperial unit should usually go first in those cases. And there is no doubt in my mind that every time Michael Glass edits this guideline it is for the purpose of advancing his campaign to metricate the world, starting with Wikipedia. [[User:Jc3s5h|Jc3s5h]] ([[User talk:Jc3s5h|talk]]) 02:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC) |
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::My experience in dealing with date formats and English code spellings tells me that MG's proposal to give discretion to editors at individual article level is undesirable, and will result in conflict re same across numerous talk pages for British topics. It should be written firmly into the guideline which specific units are to be put first in British articles, probably within the [[WP:ENGVAR|ENGVAR]] section, and incorporate similar provisions as WP:RETAIN to preserve stability. --<small><span style="background-color:#ffffff;border: 1px solid;">[[User:Ohconfucius|'''<span style="color:#000000; background-color:#ffffff"> Ohconfucius </span>''']]</span></small><sup>[[User talk:Ohconfucius|''ping / poke'']]</sup> 02:28, 11 December 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 02:28, 11 December 2012
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RfC on era style (BC/AD and BCE/CE)
I'm requesting comment on whether to retain the consensus on the wording of the era style guidelines that was produced by this lengthy discussion. Those guidelines, which I recently restored to the MOS page, are as follows (I've numbered them point by point, however, for ease of discussion):
- Point 1: Years are numbered according to the Western Dionysian era (also referred to as Common Era).
- Point 2: AD and BC are the traditional ways of referring to these eras. CE and BCE are common in some scholarly and religious writing. Either convention may be appropriate.
- Point 3: Do not change the established era style in an article unless there are reasons specific to its content. Seek consensus on the talk page before making the change. Open the discussion under a subhead that uses the word "era". Briefly state why the style is inappropriate for the article in question. Having a personal or categorical preference for one era style over the other is not justification for making a change.
- Point 4: BCE and CE or BC and AD are written in upper case, unspaced, without periods (full stops), and separated from the year number by a space (5 BC, not 5BC). It is advisable to use a non-breaking space.
- Point 5: AD may appear before or after a year (AD 106, 106 AD); the other abbreviations appear after (106 CE, 3700 BCE, 3700 BC).
- Point 6: Do not use CE or AD unless the date or century would be ambiguous without it (e.g. "The Norman Conquest took place in 1066" not 1066 CE nor AD 1066). On the other hand, "Plotinus was a philosopher living at the end of the 3rd century AD" will avoid unnecessary confusion. Also, in "He did not become king until 55 CE" the era marker makes it clear that "55" does not refer to his age. Alternatively, "He did not become king until the year 55."
- Point 7: Use either the BC-AD or the BCE-CE notation consistently within the same article. Exception: do not change direct quotations.
- Point 2: AD and BC are the traditional ways of referring to these eras. CE and BCE are common in some scholarly and religious writing. Either convention may be appropriate.
Please comment as Support or Oppose, and propose wording changes point by point. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:43, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Please see especially #Proposed new wording of Points 1 and 2 combined below. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:01, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Note. To gather more input, I've posted notices at three Wikiprojects: Religion, because they've had extended discussion of era-style issues in efforts to develop a project MOS; Classical Greece & Rome, because articles within the scope of that project are among those most likely to need to use an era designation (that project generated the "Plotinus exception"); and History, because history articles are also likely to use era designations. Please invite other projects to participate. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've also notified individuals who participated in the previous discussion linked above, if they haven't already participated here. I've tried to notify everyone, so apologies in advance if I inadvertently excluded any editors: the discussion is dauntingly long. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:01, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support but perhaps we should add a point that Astronomical year numbering may be appropriate in articles that involve date calculations across the AD/BC boundary. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- It looks as if the wording pertaining to other ways to designate years has also been altered, but I was never familiar with that section. This RfC applies only to the BC/AD vs. BCE/CE style convention. I would very much encourage someone else to take a look at what may have been done to the rest of the section dealing with scientific conventions and so on. And I agree with Kwami below: I didn't notice what was happening here for so long because I thought it dealt with "year numbering," not the era convention. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Looks good to me. (We don't need support, since it's already consensus.) There was no discussion of the title, however, and I think "Era style" would be preferable to "year numbering systems", which suggests a choice between AD and AH rather than how to style AD, especially since we instruct editors to use the word "era" in talk-page headers. — kwami (talk) 16:00, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Given Cynwolfe's agreement above, I went ahead and changed the section name. When I restored the rest of the old version, I moved the bullet on abbreviations for long periods of time to the section on long periods of time, so that no longer conflicted with the new name. — kwami (talk) 19:11, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Support: That was a good consensus; stick with it. Astronomical year numbering will be unfamiliar to most, so I think its use should be restricted to articles that discuss year numbering schemes. --Stfg (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Support I'm glad to see this wording restored to the text. Michael Glass (talk) 08:10, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Support, though it needs a few tweaks. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 09:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Support - This has been the neutral compromise in place to prevent edit wars over this, since at least 2006 (Dionysian), and it should remain in effect. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:17, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Support this wording, as modified in the discussions below, except disagree with SMcCandlish's objection under Point 5. Particularly like the fact that these guidelines are generally neutral, and don't imply that one convention is more appropriate than another in certain categories. Previous versions implied that BCE/CE should be used for all articles written about non-Christian topics. P Aculeius (talk) 12:59, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Not support the current wording: added support and oppose items below, asked for sources. Seems like an invitation for debate later. History2007 (talk) 08:39, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support Paul August ☎ 19:38, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose As the wording of point 1 implies to the newcomer who doesn't read carefully that CE is preferred, indeed obligatory. We are bound, sooner or later, to have people acting on such an interpretation. This must be fixed, perhaps just by removing the ref to Common Era, or adding one to Anno Domini. Otherwise, yes the discussion linked to was long, too long to read. What were there, and are here, the issues at stake? I'm in the dark. A summary would be useful. Johnbod (talk) 19:54, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Here's my understanding of the issues, which I do not offer as a formal summary. Some editors would like MOS to adopt BCE/CE universally. Some editors would like to preserve the option of using either BC/AD or BCE/CE, and do not want MOS to impose the use of one over the other. Some editors regard the choice between the two era styles as purely cosmetic and conventional, since either designation is ultimately Christian-centric. Some editors would like to prescribe the use of BCE/CE in specific contexts where the Christian connotations of BC/AD strike some users as inappropriate, such as in articles pertaining to Jewish or Islamic studies, or scientific and archaeological topics where predominant usage in scholarship of the last thirty years seems to have shifted to BCE/CE. In the past, it has proven impossible to craft a guideline that describes appropriate contexts. Therefore, Point 3 allows the era-style decision to be made on an article-by-article basis, depending on a consensus of editors who watch the article. It is intended to prevent era campaigning, when a user sweeps through articles changing to his personally preferred style, and drive-by editing of the era in articles in which the user takes no other interest. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:15, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, those are the issues and background, but how does the proposed/current wording differ from the old one? Johnbod (talk) 11:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- It doesn't. The wording above, which was produced by the long linked-to discussion, was restored after it somehow had become this. (Note that although Kwamigakami appears in the "before" column, the wording was from another editor.) My intention with the RfC was to work from the previous consensus wording patiently and collaboratively toward clearer, more helpful guidelines, point-by-point. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:09, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, those are the issues and background, but how does the proposed/current wording differ from the old one? Johnbod (talk) 11:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Here's my understanding of the issues, which I do not offer as a formal summary. Some editors would like MOS to adopt BCE/CE universally. Some editors would like to preserve the option of using either BC/AD or BCE/CE, and do not want MOS to impose the use of one over the other. Some editors regard the choice between the two era styles as purely cosmetic and conventional, since either designation is ultimately Christian-centric. Some editors would like to prescribe the use of BCE/CE in specific contexts where the Christian connotations of BC/AD strike some users as inappropriate, such as in articles pertaining to Jewish or Islamic studies, or scientific and archaeological topics where predominant usage in scholarship of the last thirty years seems to have shifted to BCE/CE. In the past, it has proven impossible to craft a guideline that describes appropriate contexts. Therefore, Point 3 allows the era-style decision to be made on an article-by-article basis, depending on a consensus of editors who watch the article. It is intended to prevent era campaigning, when a user sweeps through articles changing to his personally preferred style, and drive-by editing of the era in articles in which the user takes no other interest. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:15, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support - except include "anno domini" in point 1 - [from uninvolved editor invited by RfC bot] Overall it looks good, but I agree with the criticism of point 1 that 99.99% of readers will have no idea what "Dionysian era" means. The phrase "anno domini" should be in the first sentence instead of "Dionysian era", particularly if "common era" is going to be specifically named in the first sentence. --Noleander (talk) 20:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- See proposed wording below that combines Points 1 and 2 more informatively. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I like that wording: "By default, years are numbered according to the Western Dionysian era (traditionally designated with AD and BC), also referred ..." --Noleander (talk) 01:31, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have two criticisms. First, the common calendar system used today is most commonly referred to as the "Western calendar", not the "Dyonsian era", and second, if we introduce designations in Point 1, it would be clearer to show both types of designations. Here's my suggestion: "Years are numbered according to the Western calendar and are designated with either AD and BC or with BCE and CE." Then the subsequent points clarify usage. In particular, Point 2 follows very nicely from Point 1 if we use this wording. Coastside (talk) 18:42, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I like that wording: "By default, years are numbered according to the Western Dionysian era (traditionally designated with AD and BC), also referred ..." --Noleander (talk) 01:31, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- See proposed wording below that combines Points 1 and 2 more informatively. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
OpposeSupport We already discussed this exact issue only a few months ago and the result was absolutely nothing; the Manual of Style was unchanged. Suggesting exactly the same thing again with the same arguments is a waste of time and obviously doesn't justify changing the MoS. (WP Editor 2011 (talk) 00:41, 18 November 2012 (UTC))
- I'm confused: the RfC is on whether to keep the current wording, which you seem not to want to change while saying you oppose it. The wording had been drastically altered since the discussion you refer to, and with little input, so I changed it back to the current form and opened the RfC. The intention was to see whether the guidelines still reflected consensus, or whether what I regarded as a precipitous revision indicated a need to make another effort. Cynwolfe (talk) 05:14, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry Cynwolfe, I had a bit of trouble understanding what your suggestion actually was. You are right; I support the current form of the guidelines. (WP Editor 2011 (talk) 12:06, 18 November 2012 (UTC))
- I'm confused: the RfC is on whether to keep the current wording, which you seem not to want to change while saying you oppose it. The wording had been drastically altered since the discussion you refer to, and with little input, so I changed it back to the current form and opened the RfC. The intention was to see whether the guidelines still reflected consensus, or whether what I regarded as a precipitous revision indicated a need to make another effort. Cynwolfe (talk) 05:14, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support --Walter Siegmund (talk) 17:47, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Add point 8 on other systems
Include a statement about other systems, such as AH? Year-0 systems? Suggestion (examples taken from existing articles):
- Other era systems may be appropriate in an article. In such cases, dates should be followed by a conversion to Dionysian (or vice versa) and the first instance should be linked: Qasr-al-Khalifa was built in 221 AH (836 CE).
- Astronomical year numbering is Dionysian and does not require conversion, but the first instance should still be linked: The March equinox passed into Pisces in year −67.
I doubt the latter is any more unfamiliar than the former, and in any case it's pretty obvious what is meant. — kwami (talk) 18:38, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- As this doesn't modify the text under RfC, and there have been no objections, I'll add it in. — kwami (talk) 20:47, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Support but with modification - The context in which AH years are most appropriate is when only the AH year is known, and as is most often the case it does not correspond to a particular AD/CE year, but span parts of two. The example should reflect this: Qasr-al-Khalifa was built in 221 AH (835/6 CE). Agricolae (talk) 21:55, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe there should be a couple of examples, including one for when the CE year is known. (A large construction project could span several years, in any case: perhaps events that are more precisely datable should be chosen.)—Odysseus1479 (talk) 23:13, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Support broadly. Some thing should also be added to the section beginning "Do not use CE or AD unless the date or century would be ambiguous without it..." to cover more explicitly eg Muslim period articles that give the A.H. dates and therefore have to say CE or AD when giving those. The section ends with several examples, none covering this. Johnbod (talk) 13:52, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Point 1
Minor rewording, acknowledging that Dionysian is not the only system we use:
- By default, years are numbered according to the Western Dionysian era (also referred to as the Common Era).
— kwami (talk) 18:48, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Support. That is the obvious way. History2007 (talk) 19:04, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose totally. This is terrible, and will lead some to think that ONLY CE is allowed. needs a total rewrite. Johnbod (talk) 19:57, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Johnbod that most people are unfamiliar with the phrase "Dionysian era"; in fact, if so erudite an editor as Johnbod doesn't know that "Dionysian era" means BC/AD, then perhaps we should combine Points 1 and 2. Could we look at specific ways to rephrase/combine? Discussion starts following. I've also added a phrase that proved controversial in earlier discussions, but I'm offering it as a starting point. It should be considered with regard to the implications of Point 3. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:01, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Proposed new wording of Points 1 and 2 combined
- By default, years are numbered according to the Western Dionysian era (traditionally designated with AD and BC), also referred to as the Common Era (CE and BCE). Either convention may be appropriate, depending on context.
- That wording is unclear, because the "conventions" referred to in the second sentence are mere parentheticals in the first, not cited as conventions. Alternate suggestion:
- By default, years are numbered according to the Western Dionysian era. These dates may be referred to using either CE and BCE designations or CE and BCE designations. The context of the article may suggest which designation is more appropriate.
- More words and verbal repetition don't usually produce greater clarity, and your proposed guideline omits BC/AD. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:04, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- The version above also omits BC/AD, but that has to be a typo. Art LaPella (talk) 02:33, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- More words and verbal repetition don't usually produce greater clarity, and your proposed guideline omits BC/AD. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:04, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- How about:
- The default is to represent year dates in one of BC/AD and BCE/CE (Common Era) styles, both of which use the same Western Dionysian era numbering. The context of the article may suggest which style is more appropriate.
Johnbod (talk) 15:19, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- Please don't use the word "styles". When dealing with western calendars, "style" may be used to indicate whether the year begins on January 1 or March 1. It may also be used to indicate whether the Julian or Gregorian calendar is being used. The word is far to busy to give it another role. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:47, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- I prefer Johnbod's to my earlier suggestion. "Designation" or "nomenclature" instead of style? --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:38, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- I must say I would regard the use of "style" to cover either of the things Jc3s5h mentions as distinctly odd, but I am no specialist. I'm open to rewriting, and one could do so to omit any term at all. "Designation" or "nomenclature" don't work for me, & "convention" doesn't seem quite right, but might be possible. Johnbod (talk) 16:45, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Johnbod on "style": as used in connection with a "Manual of Style," "style" just means what variations of orthography, punctuation, and so on are adopted for the particular publication or organization. I think "convention" crept in because the choice between BC/AD or BCE/CE can be a matter of custom or convention (see the point in the summary above about some editors regarding the choice of era style as a mere 'cosmetic' convention, rather than a meaningful assertion of religious affiliation or antipathy). I like "more appropriate" rather than the implied either-or of "appropriate". Cynwolfe (talk) 17:10, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- See Old Style and New Style dates. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:25, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Trying again, with no style:
- The default is to represent year dates by one of BC/AD and BCE/CE (Common Era), both of which use the same Western Dionysian era numbering. The context of the article may suggest which is more appropriate.
Johnbod (talk) 17:39, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Tweaked it a little: The default is to represent year dates by either BC/AD or BCE/CE (Common Era), both of which use the same Western Dionysian era numbering. The context of the article may suggest which alternative is more appropriate. Mojoworker (talk) 02:16, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- What is "The context of the article may suggest which alternative is more appropriate" supposed to mean? In Australia especially there was a liberal push to use BCE for everything in all their schools a few years ago and it resulted in a larger outcry and backlash rejecting the change. So would BC be "more appropriate" for Australian topics? There is something about that tweak I don't like. The best solution I have seen is, go with the first-used format for most cases, stick with it, and if necessary put a "page note" above the editing box advising which one that is. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 03:50, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm inclined to think this can't be resolved. As soon as we introduce the element of "appropriate context," the guideline seems to be making a suggestion about which it is unhelpfully vague. (I'm the one who opened this can of worms, I confess, but I wanted to know whether the old consensus was still current consensus.) What would you think of The default is to represent year dates by either BC/AD or BCE/CE (Common Era), both of which use the same Western Dionysian era numbering. Either alternative may be appropriate, period? To my mind, Point 3 takes care of articles in which a change of era style may be desirable, allowing the decision to be made case-by-case through consensus among editors who watch the article. BTW, TIl Eulenspiegel, the guideline hasn't prescribed sticking to the original era style in a long time. That's what got me involved in the issue here. It used to be easy to deal with era crusaders by just pointing to the earliest diff in which an era designation had been introduced to the article, because the guideline said simply not to change from the original era style. At some point, "original" was changed to "established," which opened the door to arguing whether a style was established if it had existed for three months, or three years, or what. So here we are. Would anyone mind if I notified editors from the previous discussion about the current one? Some are perhaps not aware of it this time, and it may save us trouble to hear from them now. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- No, fine. You may well be right, but to answer Til E, CE might be considered appropriate for Australian articles as Christianity did not arrive locally until well after the period when distinguishing BCE/CE is at all necessary. Or not or course. I would always use it for new articles about most of Asia, but would follow the example of eg the British Museum in using BC even for the Stone Age in Europe. Johnbod (talk) 08:41, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
- That's an illuminating example. At one point, when we were trying to offer suggestions on how to consider context, I proposed stating flatly that for topics primarily dealing with historical Western culture, no preference is given to either, but two objections were lodged: historical might be seen as excluding prehistory; and what about the modern or contemporary West (though the latter would be unlikely to need to distinguish between eras). Cynwolfe (talk) 12:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
- That's just my own approach. I suspect any attempt to give specific examples in the actual guideline is doomed, though one might perhaps get away with mentioning general factors that might be taken into account: the extent to which the region concern was later, or is now, Christian as opposed to being dominated by other religions, the remoteness of the period concerned, and the clear local modern preference of the area concerned, if this can be established (which I would suggest it can't be for the UK, though I think BC is probably still ahead). Johnbod (talk) 12:59, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
- That's an illuminating example. At one point, when we were trying to offer suggestions on how to consider context, I proposed stating flatly that for topics primarily dealing with historical Western culture, no preference is given to either, but two objections were lodged: historical might be seen as excluding prehistory; and what about the modern or contemporary West (though the latter would be unlikely to need to distinguish between eras). Cynwolfe (talk) 12:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
- No, fine. You may well be right, but to answer Til E, CE might be considered appropriate for Australian articles as Christianity did not arrive locally until well after the period when distinguishing BCE/CE is at all necessary. Or not or course. I would always use it for new articles about most of Asia, but would follow the example of eg the British Museum in using BC even for the Stone Age in Europe. Johnbod (talk) 08:41, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm inclined to think this can't be resolved. As soon as we introduce the element of "appropriate context," the guideline seems to be making a suggestion about which it is unhelpfully vague. (I'm the one who opened this can of worms, I confess, but I wanted to know whether the old consensus was still current consensus.) What would you think of The default is to represent year dates by either BC/AD or BCE/CE (Common Era), both of which use the same Western Dionysian era numbering. Either alternative may be appropriate, period? To my mind, Point 3 takes care of articles in which a change of era style may be desirable, allowing the decision to be made case-by-case through consensus among editors who watch the article. BTW, TIl Eulenspiegel, the guideline hasn't prescribed sticking to the original era style in a long time. That's what got me involved in the issue here. It used to be easy to deal with era crusaders by just pointing to the earliest diff in which an era designation had been introduced to the article, because the guideline said simply not to change from the original era style. At some point, "original" was changed to "established," which opened the door to arguing whether a style was established if it had existed for three months, or three years, or what. So here we are. Would anyone mind if I notified editors from the previous discussion about the current one? Some are perhaps not aware of it this time, and it may save us trouble to hear from them now. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Point 2
We should strike the "the" from " AD and BC are the traditional ways of referring to these eras", as they are not the only traditional ways (with the formal "In the Year of Our Lord" coming to mind as an obvious exception). Also, we can likely strike the "some" from "scholarly", as we are only claiming they are common, not uniform or even majority use, and across the wide category of scholarship the ones they are obvious in use in - history and religion - are primary ones for being concerned about dates. --Nat Gertler (talk) 03:24, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Year of our Lord" isn't "formal", it's simply an increasingly archaic raw translation of "anno Domini". — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 09:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- How about (the) traditional abbreviations
offor these eras ? - Agree about striking 'some'. — kwami (talk) 04:51, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I would be fine with abbreviations for; abbreviations of an era would involve reducing the Common Era to 1983 through last Friday. --Nat Gertler (talk) 05:27, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I endorse the deletion of the, but am wary of deleting some, for the obvious reason that some editors will start arguing about which style is more common, or pointing out that not all scholarly and religious writing uses BCE/CE, and so on. The some does no harm, despite its slight stylistic and logical ineptitude, and prevents that kind of pointless bickering. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:03, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- What about saying "used in some" rather than the awkward "common in some"? — kwami (talk) 22:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- What about: "In some scholarly and religious writing, CE and BCE are used instead"? Mojoworker (talk) 23:59, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think the topic should be fronted. Makes for better flow; easier to follow. — kwami (talk) 00:11, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, might be better to get rid of the word 'common', and just say 'is used in some' etc. Agree with Kwami. Cynwolfe (talk) 00:54, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think removing "common" while keeping "some" waters the statement down too much. Much like "Lake Michigan–Huron is considered one lake in some hydrological senses", if you catch my drift Kwami. Maybe "the norm" instead of "used". Mojoworker (talk) 02:20, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Also true. I wouldn't use "the norm," though, because "norm" isn't really the right word when you're talking about style. How about "CE and BCE are standard in some scholarly and religious writing"? I'm not really comfortable with that diction, as I myself would say something more verbose like "BCE/CE has become standard usage in a significant body of scholarly and religious writing." Cynwolfe (talk) 13:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think removing "common" while keeping "some" waters the statement down too much. Much like "Lake Michigan–Huron is considered one lake in some hydrological senses", if you catch my drift Kwami. Maybe "the norm" instead of "used". Mojoworker (talk) 02:20, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, might be better to get rid of the word 'common', and just say 'is used in some' etc. Agree with Kwami. Cynwolfe (talk) 00:54, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think the topic should be fronted. Makes for better flow; easier to follow. — kwami (talk) 00:11, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- What about: "In some scholarly and religious writing, CE and BCE are used instead"? Mojoworker (talk) 23:59, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- What about saying "used in some" rather than the awkward "common in some"? — kwami (talk) 22:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I endorse the deletion of the, but am wary of deleting some, for the obvious reason that some editors will start arguing about which style is more common, or pointing out that not all scholarly and religious writing uses BCE/CE, and so on. The some does no harm, despite its slight stylistic and logical ineptitude, and prevents that kind of pointless bickering. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:03, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I would be fine with abbreviations for; abbreviations of an era would involve reducing the Common Era to 1983 through last Friday. --Nat Gertler (talk) 05:27, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
I agree that "standard" is an improvement. The longer version seems fine as well, if a bit verbose. It might not be possible to be concise and still have the proper nuance to the phrasing. Mojoworker (talk) 16:15, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- I like Cynwolfe's wording too. And do we really need to say "Either convention may be appropriate"? What does that add? Can we reduce "scholarly and religious" to "academic"? So,
- AD and BC are the traditional ways of referring to these eras. CE and BCE are common in some scholarly and religious writing. Either convention may be appropriate.
- might be,
- AD and BC are the traditional abbreviations for the Dionysian era. CE and BCE are standard in a significant body of academic writing.
- Or something like that. — kwami (talk) 19:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Are we still deleting "the"? Or was that a different "the"? If I understand the history of this issue correctly, the phrase scholarly and religious (which predates my involvement) was specified because BCE/CE can be found also in some non-secular writing by Christians for Christians. Which leads us to Either convention may be appropriate (notice that it's very deliberately may be, not is): this is related to the principle of "don't change without justification," defined as what's appropriate for the specific article. For a new article, the creator can choose either of these era conventions, because MOS doesn't prescribe the use of either one. In an existing article with an established era style, editors may raise the question of whether the chosen style is "appropriate," as defined by consensus achieved on the talk page. Justifying an era change requires an argument based on context, not a personal or general preference. We considered giving examples of acceptable justifications, and did some "test runs," but ultimately decided that it didn't matter. Either editors would work together with collegiality and arrive at a consensus to make a change, or they wouldn't. Defining "appropriate" or "justification" will always have to be specific to the article. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:16, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Standard" is wrong. Every field has, within English language publications, multiple books, journals, magazines, and often, audio-visual works. There are competing and overlapping scholarly societies. There are publications aimed at various audiences, from post-docs to elementary school students, with different styles. No one is in a position to set a standard. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:49, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- You may be confusing "standard" and "standardized". This is "standard" in the sense of "standard English," meaning "not something an editor would correct as illiterate or ungrammatical or an instance of bad usage; acceptable; not incorrect." Not "standardized," something that's been compelled to conform to a particular standard. A publisher generally has a stylebook: some academic publishers use BCE/CE as their standard usage; others might prescribe BC/AD; others might choose between the two, depending on the book or the author's wishes. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:16, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Standard" is wrong. Every field has, within English language publications, multiple books, journals, magazines, and often, audio-visual works. There are competing and overlapping scholarly societies. There are publications aimed at various audiences, from post-docs to elementary school students, with different styles. No one is in a position to set a standard. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:49, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- I could see that the work "standard" could be used to mean "not sub-standard English" but I don't think the context establishes that as the meaning. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- There is a difference between "standard" and "the standard", which suggests a more formal set of guidelines. Having said that, "standard", while I think ultimately accurate, is more arguable than "common". (And the keeping of "some" to avoid other arguments fails to reflect that you would and in fact have end up in arguments over "some".) --Nat Gertler (talk) 21:35, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- I could see that the work "standard" could be used to mean "not sub-standard English" but I don't think the context establishes that as the meaning. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- What if our work to survey the field results in a discovery that "some", "most", "many", "standard", or "normally" happens? It expires, and the MOS-compliant articles dutifully change style? Or what if our work to survey and poll then changes in another sample of texts later? Take more samples? Where could be the fruit of such (hard-earned) discovery of "the state of the literature out in the world"? That more articles are MOS-compliant? I think MoS compliance is wishful thinking, not critical thinking. — CpiralCpiral 01:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- BCE/CE's first sentence says "... is an alternative naming of the traditional calendar era" which it says is AD, so we don't risk much not saying anything. How about the second bullet this section just say
- Conventional usage in scholarly or religious writing, is either "AD (Anno Domini) and BC (Before Christ)", or "CE (Common Era) and BCE (Before the Common Era)".
- I'm leaving out "tradition" because it's in the link's first sentence for easy discovery. Similarly, I leave out the categorization of "era" because that point will be made somehow (probably) clear to our readers before this section's teaching of styles is over. By comparison we would risk the less-curious editor's missing things like that AD means "in the year of our Lord" (ala point 5), because it's deeper down in that BCE/CE article and relegated to a footnote. WP "featured content" demands the proper understanding so that e.g. "AD 106" is appropriate to context and end's discussions quickly; we are responsible for risking which important points to omit. — CpiralCpiral 01:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- BCE/CE's first sentence says "... is an alternative naming of the traditional calendar era" which it says is AD, so we don't risk much not saying anything. How about the second bullet this section just say
- That works for me. My only quibble is that CE doesn't really mean 'Common Era'. It's just 'Christian Era', the English translation of AD, and was coopted for 'Common Era'. So if we're going to expand the abbreviations we should give both: "CE (Common/Christian Era)". — kwami (talk) 03:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- [citation needed] — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 09:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Since this is a style guideline, not an encyclopedia entry, we don't need to explain the eras and what they mean—we don't rehearse the history of the comma to provide MOS guidelines for its use. That's why elements are linked: those who want the encyclopedic explanation or historical background can follow the links to the articles. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:07, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- [citation needed] — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 09:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- While technically true by logical parsing, that statement is too easily misinterpreted. If that wording is adapted, there needs to be an additional clause so that it reads something like: Conventional usage in scholarly or religious writing, depending on the religion, is either "AD (Anno Domini) and BC (Before Christ)", or "CE (Common Era) and BCE (Before the Common Era)". Otherwise, an editor following those guidelines might mistakenly interpret that using BC/AD is an accepted style for writing about Judaism or Judaic history for example. Mojoworker (talk) 16:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- That works for me. My only quibble is that CE doesn't really mean 'Common Era'. It's just 'Christian Era', the English translation of AD, and was coopted for 'Common Era'. So if we're going to expand the abbreviations we should give both: "CE (Common/Christian Era)". — kwami (talk) 03:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I am not convinced that the use of AD is not accepted for writing about non-Christian religions, nor am I convinced the use of CE is not accepted for writing about Christianity. Editors have been looking for definitive guidance for years and not finding it; if you can prove your point, please do so. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Eras"
- The words "these eras" conflict with the reference to a single "era" in Point 1. I'm not sure what the correct noun is for something like the BC period, but we don't want the terminology to change from one sentence to the next. It also seems a odd to mention AD and CE ahead of BC and BCE when the rule is that you only always use BC/BCE where applicable, but only ever say AD/CE when it would avoid confusion. However, any attempt I make to rewrite it without doing that seems to come out worse. --142.205.241.254 (talk) 22:00, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Something like "
ADBC andBCAD are the traditional ways of referring tothese erasdates before and after the epoch" would be more in line with E. G. Richardson's treatment on page 589–590 of "Calendars" in the Explanatory Supplement to the Nautical Almanac (3rd ed., 2013). But if anyone wants to know exactly what we mean by epoch, the answer is rather hazy. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:31, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Something like "
The proposed wording Conventional usage in scholarly or religious writing, is either AD (Anno Domini) and BC (Before Christ), or CE (Common Era) and BCE (Before the Common Era) doesn't make sense. This needs to be several sentences if we do anything like this, e.g. While traditional usage has long been AD (Anno Domini) and BC (Before Christ), and this remains the convention in Christian religious writing as well as some current scholarship in that field, CE (Common Era) and BCE (Before the Common Era)", as used in most other academic fields today, are preferred for all scientific, technical and academic topics on Wikipedia, and recommended for general usage here, including non-Christian religion articles, to avoid systemic bias. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 09:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I concur with the goal of this edit. I would simplify the opening sentence to While the traditional AD (Anno Domini) and BC (Before Christ) remain the convention in Christian religious writing and are used in some current scholarship in that field[...] --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:38, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- "CE (Common Era) and BCE (Before the Common Era)", as used in most other academic fields today, are preferred for all scientific, technical and academic topics on Wikipedia, and recommended for general usage here"? Are preferred by whom? Authors at large in the English speaking world? I challenge that idea; prove it. By Wikipedia editors? If that were true, we wouldn't need this guideline. As to avoiding systemic bias, there are a range of views on that, from the idea that few people think about the etymology of AD & BC and just think of them as a utilitarian way to designate years from the distant past, to the view that the use of the beginning of the life of Jesus as the epoch is so biased that no change in terminology can disguise the bias. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Any time MOS says "preferred" or "recommended" it means by MOS (i.e., consensus at WT:MOS). This is obviously implicit in how MOS is written. WP is not bound by what the average American or New Zealander or whoever does, so there is no need to "challenge" the imaginary straw man that anyone has suggested that CE/BCE are the most common usage. They are the most common usage in modern academic writing, which is incidentally what WP is on an important level, and they were adopted for several reasons, Christian bias (offensive to many non-Christians) being one of the most obvious (among others like relevance of one religious figure's supposed birth date to anything other than that religion, the fact that the actual birth date of Jesus is unknown to begin with, etc.) Per WP:SOAPBOX (and WP:DGAF), WP is not the place to make any case, pro or con with regard to the idea that the Western a.k.a. Gregorian calendar has to be abandoned because of its ultimately Christian derivation. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 01:53, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I do not believe "They [CE/BCE] are the most common usage in modern academic writing" and request proof. I also do not believe that Wikipedia editors as a group prefer CE/BCE for use in Wikipedia articles. Putting forward the idea that Wikipedia editors prefer CE/BCE for use in Wikipedia articles changes the nature of this discussion from the best way to word the existing consensus to establishing a new and different consensus. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:37, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I would also need serious proof before I believe that. In fact I do not believe that is the standard, and no proof has been offered at all. History2007 (talk) 19:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- A simple Google Scholar test prefers "100 BC" to "100 BCE" by 18,000 hits to 2950. Art LaPella (talk) 20:28, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Google ngrams does wonders. http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=BC%2BAD%2C+BCE%2BCE&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share= , BC and AD still dominate current usage by a substantial margin.
- That is an ineffective search, because BC and AD can both show up for many other reasons besides year dating - initials, showing combinations and permutations, for example - and being closer to beginning of alphabet, more likely to show up for combination use than CE and being used for initial use less than the longer BCE. (this chart suggests that false positives are likely substantial in the results). Also, you've cut the end date at 2000; by including dates in this century, one finds that BC+AD has peaked and is dropping, BCE+CE is still rising. --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:22, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- Search terms are exact and case sensitive, and I'd be willing to bet that the instances of BC and AD showing up in a single book together and not representing the eras are statistically insignificant. And the fact that it is declining doesn't change the fact that it is still by far the predominant style. ReformedArsenal (talk) 15:52, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- You may want to avoid doing much gambling, then. Ngrams shows that the majority of recent volumes that have BC and AD also have AB and AC. --Nat Gertler (talk) 18:37, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- Search terms are exact and case sensitive, and I'd be willing to bet that the instances of BC and AD showing up in a single book together and not representing the eras are statistically insignificant. And the fact that it is declining doesn't change the fact that it is still by far the predominant style. ReformedArsenal (talk) 15:52, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- That is an ineffective search, because BC and AD can both show up for many other reasons besides year dating - initials, showing combinations and permutations, for example - and being closer to beginning of alphabet, more likely to show up for combination use than CE and being used for initial use less than the longer BCE. (this chart suggests that false positives are likely substantial in the results). Also, you've cut the end date at 2000; by including dates in this century, one finds that BC+AD has peaked and is dropping, BCE+CE is still rising. --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:22, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- Google ngrams does wonders. http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=BC%2BAD%2C+BCE%2BCE&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share= , BC and AD still dominate current usage by a substantial margin.
- A simple Google Scholar test prefers "100 BC" to "100 BCE" by 18,000 hits to 2950. Art LaPella (talk) 20:28, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I would also need serious proof before I believe that. In fact I do not believe that is the standard, and no proof has been offered at all. History2007 (talk) 19:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose saying "CE/BCE are the most common usage in modern academic writing" given that no reference has been provided for it. History2007 (talk) 19:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Support saying "AD and BC are the traditional ways of referring to these eras" History2007 (talk) 19:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose saying either format may be appropriate with no qualifier. That is no guideline if it does not give a guidance and an invitation for unending debate and reverts. Context will be needed, e.g. reflecting that articles on Judaism prefer CE, those on Christianity AD, etc. History2007 (talk) 19:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- In the discussion that produced these guidelines, I proposed adding may be appropriate, depending on context. Even that much failed to find consensus. Before that, there had been additional wording along the lines of BC/AD has Christian connotations that may be inappropriate for some topics. (Or something like that; I don't recall precisely.) I thought this was sufficient to sensitize editors to the issues without arriving at unprovable conclusions about "most common" usage and such. Eventually, I realized that Point 3 took care of this by allowing editors to make an article-by-article judgment, and that any effort to generate a guideline that could cover all conceivable scenarios was misguided. And of course, most articles won't need an era designation at all. My reason for participating here is simple: I work mostly in classical antiquity. Articles in that topic area are among the most likely to need an era designation, because the period "straddles" the era divide (see what I refer to as the "Plotinus exception"). Editors who contribute regularly within that content area were mighty tired of drive-by editing, when users campaigning for one style over the other used articles on classical antiquity as a battleground. These users often took no other interest in the articles, and were there only to make general arguments about creeping atheism or Christian dominion—none of which improved the articles a bit, while wasting time, energy, and goodwill. Hence my approach: what problems are we trying to solve? Let's locate the problems, and craft wording to address them. Where are the discussions in which obstinate users are preventing an editor from changing from BC/AD to BCE/CE in an article about (for instance) the history of a Muslim nation? From my perspective, based on the nearly 3,000 articles I watch (most dealing with classical antiquity), the current guidelines have prevented silly drive-by era edits that were intended only to "make a point," and don't prevent editors from saying "hey, this is an article about Jewish studies, is it OK if I change the era style to BCE/CE?" Cynwolfe (talk) 14:54, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose - SMcCandlish, you're wrong about the popularity of CE/BCE. It's not "standard", "preferred" or even the majority in any field. Furthermore, the false assertion that AD/BC has been relegated to articles about Christianity would encourage the absurd misconception that BC/AD is the Christian way of writing dates rather than the English language way. (WP Editor 2011 (talk) 01:02, 18 November 2012 (UTC))
Point 3
Re: "Having a personal or categorical preference for one era style over the other is not justification for making a change." Categorical preference is just fine in other situations, such as that American-themed articles get American spelling rather that British spelling. This comes across as saying that AD, with its specifically Christian connotations, should not be used on articles specifically about the Jewish religion would be categorical and thus not be a legitimate argument in discussion, when it seems quite appropriate. Thus, I suggest we eliminate the "and categorical" part of this statement. --Nat Gertler (talk) 21:40, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. And delete 'Having' while we're at it. — kwami (talk) 23:07, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. (Except that deleting "having" is good.) The example given is not a categorical preference: it's specific to the article. It says "this article pertains to Jewish studies, and it would be more in keeping with scholarly usage to avoid AD/BC." A categorical justification is "BC/AD should never be used with Jewish subject matter." Omitting "categorical preference" would mean that someone could argue that all articles about classical antiquity should be changed to BCE/CE because the time material predated the use of BC/AD, and then could go about disrupting hundreds of articles where active contributors prefer to use BC/AD. That's what we're trying to avoid in emphasizing consensus among those who watch the article. The guidelines were a response to campaigners who went around saying "I'm changing this to BC/AD as a protest against atheist creep" or "I'm changing this to BCE/CE to protest Christian dominion." Those kinds of time-wasting, draining arguments have stopped since the implementation of these guidelines, at least in the articles I watch. An editor who wants to make a change has to make an argument specific to the article, such as "This article deals with the history of a Muslim country, and BC/AD is not used in mainstream scholarship from the last 30 years that's cited here. It would be more appropriate to use BCE/CE." DItto with "personal" below: you can't say "Jesus Christ is not my lord, so I'm changing this to BCE/CE." Discussions in which participants say things like that have not proved fruitful in the past. The exclusion of "personal and categorical" is meant to keep focus on the content of the article at hand. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with having a categorical preference. Our guidelines code in many categorical preferences. The statement "this article pertains to Jewish studies, and it would be more in keeping with scholarly usage to avoid AD/BC" is a categorical statement because the BC/BCE is used in the category of Jewish Studies. Statements that things are being done in protest are already against other guidelines. We would do better to forestall such conflicts by creating common-sense guidelines within the style guide than by taking a "whatever was put first was right" question and pretending it really makes no difference when to many, it does. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see what problem you're trying to solve. Are there raging discussions out there right now involving editors who want to change BC/AD to BCE/CE in articles pertaining to Islamic or Jewish studies, but who can't because other editors refuse consent? And if there are, have the participants made an RfC, or sought any outside input? As I say elsewhere, since the current wording was established, I haven't seen any of these era wars breaking out on my watchlisted pages. The pages I watch often use era designations because of the "Plotinus exception"—that is, they deal with classical antiquity, and switch back and forth a lot between BC/BCE and CE/AD. I used to see long and pointless discussions that got nowhere because they didn't focus on the good of the article. They were about imposing categorical or personal preferences. That's how I got involved in this. If you open a discussion on the era style, and nobody responds within a reasonable amount of time (I'd say a week), then you have tacit consensus to change to an era style you feel is more appropriate. But if you can't even find consensus within a single article, you're far less likely to find consensus on universally applicable guidelines. There is no consensus that BCE/CE should universally replace BC/AD. You know that from previous discussions. The guidelines allow you to make changes based on the content of the article. What's stopping you from doing that? Sincere question. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- There are editors currently who are reluctant to try to make changes because of the long discussions that would result due to the lack of clear guidelines. I see the guidelines on American vs. British spelling and how that cuts down the hassle involved in aligning such articles. Consensus can and does change, and if the main argument for not categorically endorsing BCE/CE is that there was not a previous consensus for it. A decision in discussion here can simplify discussions in hundreds of other places, and I think make for a better encyclopedia. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:23, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- So in other words, you can't identify any problems the current wording might be causing. Who are these editors? How do you know of their existence? What articles do they want to change? Cynwolfe (talk) 22:58, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- First off Cynwolfe, if you wish to try to move things forward, may I suggest that you drop the smug and condescending tone? Pretending that I hadn't identified a problem and then asking me for more details about the problem I noted does not serve matters. I am among those editors, and have heard similar views from others. I cannot point you to all the articles that I wished to change, I did not maintain a list, I have danced the BC/BCE dance in various ways in the past, sometimes successfully, but it is tiring and discouraging even in those instances. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:18, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- You misread my tone. These are sincere questions. I honestly don't know what problem you're trying to solve. I haven't seen a single example of an editor who's requested an era change and been shouted down after the adoption of the above guidelines. Can you identify one or two articles that you feel should have the era style changed, so that we can see why the change can't be made? That will help us understand how to craft wording that addresses the problem. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- While we're waiting for examples to the contrary, I would point to Talk:The Exodus#Era as an indication that the current guidelines are effective in promoting civil discussions that can lead to a consensus for a specific article. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:22, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Except that that entry is not largely where the discussion took place, it was primarily in s/Archive_7#BC_vs._BCE an earlier entry that is referred to there, where you will see there is genuine (if civil) question as to what the appropriate way to decide this was because there was not guidance in the guidelines... and the closest that the entry you point to comes to invoking the guideline is discussion of what was the earliest version, and that was clearly not what ultimately formed the decision to change. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Right: the participants were able to engage in a civil discussion and arrive at a consensus for changing the era style to the convention that editors thought was more appropriate to the article. That's the goal. The guidelines assume that editors are capable of thinking through the connotations an era style might have in context and of arriving at a reasonable consensus. The guidelines are meant to support a collegial environment of collaborative editing aimed at what's best for the article. They are not meant to provide fodder for wikilawyering. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. That said, I didn't feel the process was finished last time, and I personally felt that the last sentence (under Point 2) should've read Either convention may be appropriate, depending on context. But I couldn't get support for that, even though I didn't want to dictate to anyone what "context" might mean. So that's why I would like to see current examples of unresolvable era debates: I'm simply unaware of any that have been rancorous under these guidelines, or where good arguments for change have been shouted down because other disputants are on a campaign for one style over another. I'm happy to revisit wording to address actual problems. If no problems exist, I oppose changes that may restart the wars. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:15, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that I simply don't agree that absence of rancor and civility are the goal; they are certainly fine things, but the guidelines exist for more than civility. Reasonable goals for these guidelines include to help generate a quality encyclopedia, and to help answer editors questions and thus simplify their effort. --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:42, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- Nat, that is not what I said. I said editors were able to reach consensus about what was appropriate for that article. That's the goal. That they were able to do so civilly contributes to the overall collegial environment that makes consensus and collaboration possible. Again, if you can show examples where editors are currently unable to reach a consensus about what which style is appropriate, then we can see why the current guidelines don't work. But we have to be fixing a problem that actually exists. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:26, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- And again, you're insisting that whatever you say is the goal, and acting as though any other concerns should be ignored. I happen to think that guidelines that actually give guidance that can spare editors some effort is a good goal. I happen to think that quality in some various forms is a goal. I happen to think that uniformity on some level actually has a value. And you point to one discussion in which the decision was made on a criterion of dubious propriety, which was only effectively used because the person who put it forth was counting on it favoring his side (or at least no one noticing that it hadn't), in which the resolution was made by my having to put the effort in to research the content of a string of references, and which likely only ended in its second round because one of the previous objecting editors was just disappearing from Wikipedia, and in which you cannot show that the extant guidelines provided the least bit of help, where help from a guideline might have been both expected and desirable. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:51, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- And again, it seems to me the guidelines worked because the change was made. Collaboration and consensus can indeed be cumbersome, but that's the nature of the project, isn't it? Anyway, if you can't find any active era debates we could look at, could you perhaps provide three or four articles where the style needs to be changed? Above you said there are editors reluctant to try to change era style. I'm not at all reluctant to make appropriate changes. Give me a couple of articles to try, and we'll see what kind of problems arise. Cynwolfe (talk) 00:22, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe try Category:Ancient languages. — kwami (talk) 02:23, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- The first one I happened upon needed copyediting: it had an inconsistent style and used an era designation when one was unneeded, so I did this. It also seems useful to keep in mind that era designations can often be omitted. (As I said above, an era designation is regularly needed in overview articles about ancient Rome, because you're jumping around a lot from the 2nd century BC/BCE to the 2nd century AD/CE.) The GA Biblical Hebrew uses the BC/AD convention, as you know. It also straddles the eras throughout, so it needs a designation, but here's what's interesting: on the talk page, editors use BCE/CE, and yet throughout an intensive, brainy, civil discussion, no one proposed changing era usage in the article. I don't know what that means, but it makes it more difficult to find articles that "need" an era change. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- If Biblical Hebrew is a triumph of the guidelines, then the guidelines are in sad shape indeed. The article was in BCE - and if we can say BCE is particularly appropriate for any articles, this would certainly be among them. But it was a victim of one of the "drive-by" edits that this set of guidelines was supposed to stop. --Nat Gertler (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- Nat, you need to stop twisting what others are saying. I was wondering why, since participants on the talk page used BCE/CE, the article itself used BC/AD. That's all. The edit you point to clearly contradicts the guidelines, which required prior discussion. I don't know why editors who watch that page didn't object. No guideline can prevent an edit. It can only provide grounds for reverting an inappropriate edit, which that one seems to have been. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:46, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- If Biblical Hebrew is a triumph of the guidelines, then the guidelines are in sad shape indeed. The article was in BCE - and if we can say BCE is particularly appropriate for any articles, this would certainly be among them. But it was a victim of one of the "drive-by" edits that this set of guidelines was supposed to stop. --Nat Gertler (talk) 01:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- The first one I happened upon needed copyediting: it had an inconsistent style and used an era designation when one was unneeded, so I did this. It also seems useful to keep in mind that era designations can often be omitted. (As I said above, an era designation is regularly needed in overview articles about ancient Rome, because you're jumping around a lot from the 2nd century BC/BCE to the 2nd century AD/CE.) The GA Biblical Hebrew uses the BC/AD convention, as you know. It also straddles the eras throughout, so it needs a designation, but here's what's interesting: on the talk page, editors use BCE/CE, and yet throughout an intensive, brainy, civil discussion, no one proposed changing era usage in the article. I don't know what that means, but it makes it more difficult to find articles that "need" an era change. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:31, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe try Category:Ancient languages. — kwami (talk) 02:23, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- And again, it seems to me the guidelines worked because the change was made. Collaboration and consensus can indeed be cumbersome, but that's the nature of the project, isn't it? Anyway, if you can't find any active era debates we could look at, could you perhaps provide three or four articles where the style needs to be changed? Above you said there are editors reluctant to try to change era style. I'm not at all reluctant to make appropriate changes. Give me a couple of articles to try, and we'll see what kind of problems arise. Cynwolfe (talk) 00:22, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- And again, you're insisting that whatever you say is the goal, and acting as though any other concerns should be ignored. I happen to think that guidelines that actually give guidance that can spare editors some effort is a good goal. I happen to think that quality in some various forms is a goal. I happen to think that uniformity on some level actually has a value. And you point to one discussion in which the decision was made on a criterion of dubious propriety, which was only effectively used because the person who put it forth was counting on it favoring his side (or at least no one noticing that it hadn't), in which the resolution was made by my having to put the effort in to research the content of a string of references, and which likely only ended in its second round because one of the previous objecting editors was just disappearing from Wikipedia, and in which you cannot show that the extant guidelines provided the least bit of help, where help from a guideline might have been both expected and desirable. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:51, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- Nat, that is not what I said. I said editors were able to reach consensus about what was appropriate for that article. That's the goal. That they were able to do so civilly contributes to the overall collegial environment that makes consensus and collaboration possible. Again, if you can show examples where editors are currently unable to reach a consensus about what which style is appropriate, then we can see why the current guidelines don't work. But we have to be fixing a problem that actually exists. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:26, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that I simply don't agree that absence of rancor and civility are the goal; they are certainly fine things, but the guidelines exist for more than civility. Reasonable goals for these guidelines include to help generate a quality encyclopedia, and to help answer editors questions and thus simplify their effort. --Nat Gertler (talk) 13:42, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
- Right: the participants were able to engage in a civil discussion and arrive at a consensus for changing the era style to the convention that editors thought was more appropriate to the article. That's the goal. The guidelines assume that editors are capable of thinking through the connotations an era style might have in context and of arriving at a reasonable consensus. The guidelines are meant to support a collegial environment of collaborative editing aimed at what's best for the article. They are not meant to provide fodder for wikilawyering. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. That said, I didn't feel the process was finished last time, and I personally felt that the last sentence (under Point 2) should've read Either convention may be appropriate, depending on context. But I couldn't get support for that, even though I didn't want to dictate to anyone what "context" might mean. So that's why I would like to see current examples of unresolvable era debates: I'm simply unaware of any that have been rancorous under these guidelines, or where good arguments for change have been shouted down because other disputants are on a campaign for one style over another. I'm happy to revisit wording to address actual problems. If no problems exist, I oppose changes that may restart the wars. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:15, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Except that that entry is not largely where the discussion took place, it was primarily in s/Archive_7#BC_vs._BCE an earlier entry that is referred to there, where you will see there is genuine (if civil) question as to what the appropriate way to decide this was because there was not guidance in the guidelines... and the closest that the entry you point to comes to invoking the guideline is discussion of what was the earliest version, and that was clearly not what ultimately formed the decision to change. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- While we're waiting for examples to the contrary, I would point to Talk:The Exodus#Era as an indication that the current guidelines are effective in promoting civil discussions that can lead to a consensus for a specific article. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:22, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- You misread my tone. These are sincere questions. I honestly don't know what problem you're trying to solve. I haven't seen a single example of an editor who's requested an era change and been shouted down after the adoption of the above guidelines. Can you identify one or two articles that you feel should have the era style changed, so that we can see why the change can't be made? That will help us understand how to craft wording that addresses the problem. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- First off Cynwolfe, if you wish to try to move things forward, may I suggest that you drop the smug and condescending tone? Pretending that I hadn't identified a problem and then asking me for more details about the problem I noted does not serve matters. I am among those editors, and have heard similar views from others. I cannot point you to all the articles that I wished to change, I did not maintain a list, I have danced the BC/BCE dance in various ways in the past, sometimes successfully, but it is tiring and discouraging even in those instances. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:18, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- So in other words, you can't identify any problems the current wording might be causing. Who are these editors? How do you know of their existence? What articles do they want to change? Cynwolfe (talk) 22:58, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- There are editors currently who are reluctant to try to make changes because of the long discussions that would result due to the lack of clear guidelines. I see the guidelines on American vs. British spelling and how that cuts down the hassle involved in aligning such articles. Consensus can and does change, and if the main argument for not categorically endorsing BCE/CE is that there was not a previous consensus for it. A decision in discussion here can simplify discussions in hundreds of other places, and I think make for a better encyclopedia. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:23, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see what problem you're trying to solve. Are there raging discussions out there right now involving editors who want to change BC/AD to BCE/CE in articles pertaining to Islamic or Jewish studies, but who can't because other editors refuse consent? And if there are, have the participants made an RfC, or sought any outside input? As I say elsewhere, since the current wording was established, I haven't seen any of these era wars breaking out on my watchlisted pages. The pages I watch often use era designations because of the "Plotinus exception"—that is, they deal with classical antiquity, and switch back and forth a lot between BC/BCE and CE/AD. I used to see long and pointless discussions that got nowhere because they didn't focus on the good of the article. They were about imposing categorical or personal preferences. That's how I got involved in this. If you open a discussion on the era style, and nobody responds within a reasonable amount of time (I'd say a week), then you have tacit consensus to change to an era style you feel is more appropriate. But if you can't even find consensus within a single article, you're far less likely to find consensus on universally applicable guidelines. There is no consensus that BCE/CE should universally replace BC/AD. You know that from previous discussions. The guidelines allow you to make changes based on the content of the article. What's stopping you from doing that? Sincere question. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with having a categorical preference. Our guidelines code in many categorical preferences. The statement "this article pertains to Jewish studies, and it would be more in keeping with scholarly usage to avoid AD/BC" is a categorical statement because the BC/BCE is used in the category of Jewish Studies. Statements that things are being done in protest are already against other guidelines. We would do better to forestall such conflicts by creating common-sense guidelines within the style guide than by taking a "whatever was put first was right" question and pretending it really makes no difference when to many, it does. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's a common chorus and theme best fit into the section as a whole as a footer:
- Do not change an established and consistent style in an article unless there are reasons specific to its content. Maintain article consistency in abbreviating. Seek consensus on the talk page before making many "obvious" corrections. Open the discussion under a subhead that uses the word "era" or "eon". Briefly state the reason. Personal reasons are usually not justification.
- This covers many related points in a final paragraph that experienced users can ignore at the end of their crash or refresher course. — CpiralCpiral 01:21, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- We don't need "eon" in there. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 09:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Violation of this with regard to eras is a common problem & a brief reiteration within WP:ERA will help make edit summaries referring to WP:ERA meaningful.--JimWae (talk) 01:32, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Personal reasons are never a reason to make an era change: how could they be? Is there any other guideline anywhere on WP that would permit an editor to make a content change based on personal feelings? Cynwolfe (talk) 14:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Personal" strikes me as a form of "I don't like it." Cynwolfe (talk) 15:14, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Personal reasons are never a reason to make an era change: how could they be? Is there any other guideline anywhere on WP that would permit an editor to make a content change based on personal feelings? Cynwolfe (talk) 14:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Violation of this with regard to eras is a common problem & a brief reiteration within WP:ERA will help make edit summaries referring to WP:ERA meaningful.--JimWae (talk) 01:32, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Also on Point 3 - it should be moved to after point 7, both because we should establish the concept of saying that an article has a style before saying it shouldn't be changed, and because we should be talking about how to do things before we talk about how not to do things (accentuate the positive, as it were.) --Nat Gertler (talk) 03:24, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 09:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- The purpose of Point 3 is to forestall era campaigning. Editors requested that it be made prominent, because one of the goals was to stop drive-by editing of the era by users who otherwise contributed nothing to the article and took no further interest in it. It was intended to support content-generators and maintainers from having to deal with era warriors. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I'm an editor and a content generator, and I'm making a contrary request. But if we are to keep Point 3 toward the top, then point 7 should be moved before it, for reasons stated above. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Although I'm unclear about the relevance of your self-identification, I agree that Points 3 and 7 are complementary and should appear next to each other. As I said, editors felt that one of the main purposes of WP:ERA was to prevent drive-by era editing, so they wanted Point 3 higher and more prominent in the list. Point 7 could be moved up to follow it directly. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Cynwolfe, the fact that the people who made the request before were editors does not therefor make the request carry special wait; the people who are suggesting it should be moved to the end are also editors, and we are folks who, working today and looking at the situation as it stands, feel that it should be moved. That a decision was made in the past does not inherently prevent it from being reexamined and adjusted today or in the future; that as an inherent part of Wikipedia. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:23, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I have been an editor for some time, & I still want WP:ERA to prominently feature a statement about not changing era notation w/o establishing a new consensus first.--JimWae (talk) 23:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Agree strongly. Paul August ☎ 20:17, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Me too. Isn't this is the main problem we are supposed to solve here? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:41, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- Agree strongly. Paul August ☎ 20:17, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Would maintaining the statement in bold, while positioning it further down in the section, serve your desire for prominence? --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:46, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have been an editor for some time, & I still want WP:ERA to prominently feature a statement about not changing era notation w/o establishing a new consensus first.--JimWae (talk) 23:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Cynwolfe, the fact that the people who made the request before were editors does not therefor make the request carry special wait; the people who are suggesting it should be moved to the end are also editors, and we are folks who, working today and looking at the situation as it stands, feel that it should be moved. That a decision was made in the past does not inherently prevent it from being reexamined and adjusted today or in the future; that as an inherent part of Wikipedia. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:23, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Although I'm unclear about the relevance of your self-identification, I agree that Points 3 and 7 are complementary and should appear next to each other. As I said, editors felt that one of the main purposes of WP:ERA was to prevent drive-by era editing, so they wanted Point 3 higher and more prominent in the list. Point 7 could be moved up to follow it directly. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I'm an editor and a content generator, and I'm making a contrary request. But if we are to keep Point 3 toward the top, then point 7 should be moved before it, for reasons stated above. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Point 3.5?
The implicitly understood and established practice all these years has been that, if someone does do what it says not to do in 'point 3', i.e. changes from one system to another without discussion, then he or she may be summarily reverted to the previous status quo, without prejudice to the reverter.
Should this be spelled out? (To make it more obvious that you can't unilaterally change from one to the other in this fashion, and then accuse those who are reverting you of being the edit warriors) Thanks, Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:38, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- I've reverted several era edits since the current guidelines went into effect ("current" meaning the guidelines that are the subject of this RfC), and so far I haven't been confronted after reverting and leaving an edit summary that says something like "Please review WP:ERA and open a discussion on the talk page." The vast majority of editors are simply not aware of the (perhaps unique?) requirement to discuss first, and don't push it once it's pointed out. But I seem to recall that your point was raised in the last discussion, along with the issue of consistency: if two different styles have crept into the article, it may be sticky to determine which is established, but if the editor can do so, there's no obligation to discuss before copyediting for consistency. So when an IP made this edit, I left documentation on the talk page. It may well be that reverting when no consensus has been sought, and editing for consistency, aren't addressed clearly enough. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:39, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Point 5
The prefixed "AD 102" format (Point 5) should never be used outside of a biblical context, and not even in biblical archaeology, as the scientific community consistently standardized on suffixed style for all four of these at least 2 generations ago. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 09:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Disagree with this assertion. Because of its meaning, AD is traditionally placed before the year. The fact that the opposite has become commonplace doesn't make the correct way incorrect, nor should it be grounds for attempting to enforce conformity with what's perceived to be "recent" or "modern" style. Changing point 5 as suggested would change the otherwise neutral tone of the guideline by stating a strict preference for one style. If some change is desired, I'd suggest something along the lines of Cynwolfe's introductory explanation, such as, "traditionally, AD is placed before the year. However, in recent times it has become increasingly common to place it after the year." P Aculeius (talk) 13:08, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I can prove this is wrong. The Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Almanac 3rd ed. (University Science Books, 2013) was prepared by HM Nautical Almanac Office and the the United States Naval Observatory and uses the style A.D. 1 throughout chapter 15 (in addition to astronomical year numbering. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:44, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Disagree per P Aculeius.—Odysseus1479 (talk) 02:28, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- Disagree The "scientific community" are not arbiters of the English language. (WP Editor 2011 (talk) 00:28, 18 November 2012 (UTC))
- Strong disagree "One Anno Domini" makes no sense, and this has never been standard English usage. The frequency of ignorant misuse is not a good basis for any decision. Nyttend (talk) 18:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
How to list out a season year of a TV show
This has came to my attention since a user by the name of Kwamikagami has been making to episode lists of various shows regarding how to organize the years of the seasons (for example, 2003-04 to now 2003/04). Now as I told him on his talk age, it amazed me how now all of a sudden that's been an issue considering we've been listing the years the known way for years now. But as he told me, the correct way of doing it has been on this article since 2007 but hasn't been followed very well. I wanted to challenge this because I liked how the years have usually been listed despite what this paged said about them. I just thought they looked better and now they just look a bit off and I wondered if other users here felt the same way. - Jabrona - 17:10, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- Did you really mean "2003-04", or "2003–04"? The former uses a hyphen; the latter uses a dash, which is a little longer. 2003-04 with a hyphen is clearly against our rule at WP:ENDASH. 2003–04 with a dash was just discussed here. Art LaPella (talk) 20:16, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- I guess I was referring to the hyphen though the dash could have came into play here as well. I wasn't aware the dash thing was already talked about above, but as for the hyphen, I've taken a look through the section you linked on it and don't really see where it says it can't still be used in a case like this. - Jabrona - 22:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Right at the beginning of WP:ENDASH: "The en dash (–) has other roles ... Consider the exact meaning when choosing which to use. 1. In ranges that might otherwise be expressed with to or through ... the 1939–45 war". If your point is that a season isn't quite the same as a 1939–45 war, it's still 2003 to or through 2004, and our very long list of examples needs to stop somewhere. In that case, or if your point is that it doesn't say "no hyphens" explicitly enough, "no hyphens" in any kind of year ranges is how we have always interpreted it. Art LaPella (talk) 03:20, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
- I guess I was referring to the hyphen though the dash could have came into play here as well. I wasn't aware the dash thing was already talked about above, but as for the hyphen, I've taken a look through the section you linked on it and don't really see where it says it can't still be used in a case like this. - Jabrona - 22:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- "Looking a bit off" is largely a matter of what you're used to. If we had been using slashes consistently since 2007, it would probably be the dashes which look off. It often makes little difference, but I've come across a fair number of shows where we distinguish a two-season run of 2003–04 (two spring seasons) from a one-season run of 2003/04 (one fall season). — kwami (talk) 21:35, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- Heck, even if we've gone by the slash this whole time, I would probably thought they looked off because I've seen the hyphens and dashed used in other places besides here regarding seasons. But perhaps, I can grow onto the slashes in the future. I didn't think there was much I could do about this anyway. It was rather pointless of me making this section in the first place. - Jabrona - 22:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Guys, has anyone looked at the two-week discussion above we just had, and the changes that were made to the MOS as a result? As currently phrased, the MOS permits the use of the "2003/04" date format, but only where reliable sources use the convention in reference to the particular subject. If no published sources are referring to the "2003/04 season" for television shows, don't use it. Let's stop inventing our own "code" that no one outside of MOS contributors understands. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:33, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
- Heck, even if we've gone by the slash this whole time, I would probably thought they looked off because I've seen the hyphens and dashed used in other places besides here regarding seasons. But perhaps, I can grow onto the slashes in the future. I didn't think there was much I could do about this anyway. It was rather pointless of me making this section in the first place. - Jabrona - 22:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- from YEAR - "... sports seasons spanning two calendar years should be uniformly written as 2005–06 season."
- from SLASH - "An unspaced slash may be used:... to indicate regular defined yearly periods that do not coincide with calendar years (the 2009/10 academic year, the 2010/11 hockey season; see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Longer periods)"
- Anyone else see the fundamental conflict that could be the source for the nigh-edit-warring i noticed on Person Of Interest's episode list? Last i checked hockey is a sport. And like hockey (when Bettman doesn't screw with it) the tv seasons in North America span calendar years and also roughly align with academic years. I don't usually deal with MOS stuff but whatever has been done has some flaws to it. delirious & lost ☯ ~hugs~ 08:42, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
- Deliriousandlost, I have modified WP:SLASH to remove the suggestions that the slash convention is required in references to sports seasons and academic years. As I explained in response to your message on my user talk page, the use of the ndash in year spans is the standard MOS convention. However, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Longer periods permits the use of the slash for time periods of twelve or fewer months which span two calender years for those situations (e.g. government fiscal years) where reliable sources use the slash convention. If reliable sources do not use the slash for a particular situation, use the dash. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:35, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Ordinal dates (of sorts)
In milhist articles, I often come across constructions, which after running my script, gives such as She stopped at Reykjavík for one week, from 10 to 17 September, and reentered Norfolk on the 25th.. I tend not to touch these because of the sometimes complex rewording needed; what's more, the expression "the 25th" seems to me like an acceptable abbreviation for "25 September". But given that advice is to eschew ordinals, I'd like to hear some views as to how one ought to treat these instances of ordinal dates. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 09:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- I've always done the same: left them. It seems a reasonable exception to the said eschewance. JIMp talk·cont 11:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed with Jimp above. "25th" is entirely sufficient in this example.--ColonelHenry (talk) 21:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Comma after a year
Hi. Should a comma be placed after a year at the start of a sentence? Which of these is correct:
- In 2011, the organisation underwent a major exercise to capture customer feedback.
- In 2011 the organisation underwent a major exercise to capture customer feedback.
Thanks. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 09:27, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 11:23, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree. A comma is appropriate. See Comma#Separation of clauses. "In 2011" is a dependent clause. The rest is an independent clause. I will note that this is one of the most common uses, and also the most commonly missing. While the MOS section on commas does not address this directly (but should), it does give other examples of a leading dependent clause that specifies when the following independent clause occurred, calling the leading clause parenthetical (incorrectly, since it is actually information required to avoid changing the meaning of the sentence). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 11:29, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
- "In 2011" is a prepositional phrase. There aren't any prepositional phrases listed as examples in the dependent clause article. Instead, it says "First, like all dependent clauses, it will contain a verb ..." and "In 2011" has no verb. Art LaPella (talk) 14:49, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
- I believe Art is right. "In 2011" is a prepositional phrase not a clause (which needs a verb) and as such needs no comma. JIMp talk·cont 12:41, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
- I agree: there’s an introductory dependent clause in e.g. “Facing declining membership in 2011, the organization underwent …,” but not in the original example. Although I prefer the comma-less version above, I would insert a comma after a longer or more complex prepositional phrase, e.g. “In the aftermath of the membership crisis of 2011, the organization underwent ….” While I don’t think it’s strictly necessary here, after a long enough introduction it’s helpful to the reader to signal the beginning of the main clause.—Odysseus1479 (talk) 21:59, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
- I believe Art is right. "In 2011" is a prepositional phrase not a clause (which needs a verb) and as such needs no comma. JIMp talk·cont 12:41, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
- "In 2011" is a prepositional phrase. There aren't any prepositional phrases listed as examples in the dependent clause article. Instead, it says "First, like all dependent clauses, it will contain a verb ..." and "In 2011" has no verb. Art LaPella (talk) 14:49, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree. A comma is appropriate. See Comma#Separation of clauses. "In 2011" is a dependent clause. The rest is an independent clause. I will note that this is one of the most common uses, and also the most commonly missing. While the MOS section on commas does not address this directly (but should), it does give other examples of a leading dependent clause that specifies when the following independent clause occurred, calling the leading clause parenthetical (incorrectly, since it is actually information required to avoid changing the meaning of the sentence). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 11:29, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Multiple units separated by comma
When specifying a value as the sum of two (or more) values with different size units, is a comma (or "and") required to separate them? Examples:
- "2 pounds, 6 ounces" or "2 pounds 6 ounces" (for 38 ounces)
- "2 years, 6 months" or "2 years 6 months" (for 30 months)
- "2 dollars, 6 cents" or "2 dollars 6 cents" (for $2.06)
—[AlanM1(talk)]— 10:20, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
- I'd write it without the comma. To me the full expression would be with the "and": "2 pounds and 6 ounces", "2 years and 6 months", etc. For brevity the "and" is dropped but it wouldn't make sense to replace it with a comma. JIMp talk·cont 12:38, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
- I seem to recall there's some difference between American and British usage, but I might be wrong. — A. di M. 19:48, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
frac template for derived units
MOS:FRAC states that the use of {{frac}} (such as 1⁄2) is discouraged in science articles, and Template:frac accordingly warns that this template should not be used in science articles. Was this prohibition meant to apply to derived units as well, e.g. m⁄s, or was it just meant to encourage decimal numbers? I searched through the archives a bit, but everything I found focused on numbers. When there is more than one unit in the denominator, (e.g. J⁄kg·h) I find the {{frac}} form more readable than the alternatives: J/(kg·h) or --Yannick (talk) 05:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
- We should stick to the existing standards in science. With your example, you would be permitted to write J/(kg⋅h) or J/kg⋅h, but not J⁄kg⋅h. See International System of Units#General rules. You may like the {{sfrac}} template as being as readable as the {{frac}} template. The use of inline
<math>
as per your example is problematic. — Quondum 07:10, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
- I've made this change. Hopefully it will be accepted (or improved on). — Quondum 14:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Has the proposal of "source based units" been incorporated into WP:MOSNUM
User:Martinvl and User:Michael Glass have repeatedly pushed a proposal that MOSNUM adopt a standard that articles adopt a unit order preference defined by the sources. Effectively this means if the units in the source are metric, you give the metric unit and the imperial conversion. I have always objected to such proposals as:
A) This is in effect a pretext to ignore WP:MOSNUM to give preference to metric units, since sources are selected preferentially to favour metric units. B) Its a recipe for a beggars muddle, different editors, different sources, the article would look a complete mess with unit order varying throughout the article.
As a mixture of (A) and (B) editors I believe have repeatedly rejected this proposal. I find the whole subject tedious in the extreme, one of the reasons I have pretty much given up editing.
WP:MOSNUM currently states for UK related articles:
- In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit is generally a metric unit (44 kilogram (97 lb)), but imperial units can be put first in some contexts, including: Some editors hold strong views for or against metrication in the UK. If there is disagreement about the main units used in a UK-related article, discuss the matter on the article talk-page, at MOSNUM talk, or both. If consensus cannot be reached, refer to historically stable versions of the article and retain the units used in these as the main units. Note the style guides of British publications such as Times Online (under "Metric").</ref>
- miles, miles per hour, and fuel consumption in miles per imperial gallon;
- feet/inches and stones/pounds for personal height and weight;
- imperial pints for draught beer/cider and bottled milk.
Similarly after the Falkland Islands Task Force became moribund after Michael and Martin attempted to use the project to promote metrication of a whole series of related articles. Editors drafted WP:FALKLANDSUNITS to provide an explicit standard for Falklands related articles. Funnily enough Martin recently blanked this text.
User:Martinvl has changed Falkland Islands, a UK-related article, to metric units first, in some cases he actually has reversed the convert template to reconvert an originally imperial figure back to first metric and then back to imperial. You know what I really can't be bothered to argue over trivia anymore, if what Martin has done complies with WP:MOSNUM so be it. But I don't think it does and I'm fed up with the bullying to impose his agenda and the edit warring to do so.
My question has this been adopted as he insists and if it doesn't conform to WP:MOSNUM I would be grateful if an editor would revert his changes to impose his agenda. See [1]. Wee Curry Monster talk 22:29, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think we should slavishly follow a source-based approach for our units and numbers because we have our own house style that is already very mature if only a bit schizophrenic. I seem to recall that we had agreed on a country-based approach, like WP:ENGVAR. But as you seem to be talking about units employed for Falkland Islands, a small group of editors made such a fuss over it that they had finally agreed on a divergence from the 'UK ENGVAR' units. I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with it, but the disputing parties instead opted for their own WP:FALKLANDSUNITS, which was adopted as a sort of compromise. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 23:38, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the source-based approach has created big problems, not the least of which is the diversity of usage in the sources. No house style blindly supplicates to whatever some professional society decides is The Right Way. This is why we have a cohesive set of style guides for our particular cross-variety online context. Tony (talk) 04:12, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
- User talk:Wee Curry Monster stated that I had "blanked" the text of WP:FALKLANDSUNITS. This is not true - I redirected it to WP:MOSNUM. I did so in response to This RFC which integrated all MOS-type pages into MOS and which moved such pages into MOS-space making them visible to all editors. Teh authors of that RFC identified 82 pages which were moved (or integrated into ) MOS-spce. WP:FALKLANDSUNITS was so effectively hidden that they missed it. That, by definition, negates its usefulness.
- WP:FALKLANDSUNITS added nothing new to MOS (or its subpages) so that seemed to be the obvious way forward. I accept that Wee Curry Monster might not have been aware of the RFC in question. Once he has read it, he might like to respond. Martinvl (talk) 08:13, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
- Doesn't MOSNUM leave it to editors to work out what units to use in UK based articles? The present editors who are active on Falklands articles should work this out, but please don't try to drag me into it. Michael Glass (talk) 09:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Ohconfucius that the sourced based unit approach was not really workable and that consistency in articles was more important than slavishly following the sources as people would cherry pick the sources to get the order that they prefer. The Falkland Islands editors at the time came up with a compromise at WP:FALKLANDSUNITS. Which, if you want to move to MOS space, then do so but that clearly states what to use for these articles and should not be just redirected but incorporated if that is what you want. Keith D (talk) 13:28, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
- So if I understand it correctly. Per my question "Source based units" still hasn't been accepted, yet User:Martinvl was reverting my implementation of WP:FALKLANDSUNITS and the current guidelines at WP:MOSNUM to force an implementation of "Source based units" by edit warring. Also he didn't integrate WP:FALKLANDSUNITS into WP:MOS per that RFC, he simply blanked it without discussion. Merge it by all means if there is a consensus to do so but it shouldn't be used as a pretext to remove a guideline to impose metrication by the back door. And long bitter experience of Martin's zeal for the metric system leads me to conclude it was simply used as a pretext. If you can't convince people by reason and consensus building, continually seeking routes to do it by the back door and cynically edit warring it into the article just puts people's backs up. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
- I think there are some questions to determine:
- Is the Falklands Units policy still current, as WCM asserts or has it been effectively superseded as Martin has argued?
- If the Falklands Units policy is still current, does it still have consensus among the present editors who work on Falklands articles?
- If the Falklands Units policy is not current or it no longer has the consensus of the present editors, wouldn't the general UK rules apply?
- Editors have expressed concern that a source based approach has led to problems of inconsistency of units or cherry picking of sources. Has this happened with any Falklands article? If not, then it's not relevant.
- Is the Falklands Units policy compatible with MOSNUM rules for UK articles? If not, why not?
- If the Falklands articles are consistent in usage and also consistent with the sources, this would not be a problem with MOSNUM rules for UK articles. If consistent usage is inconsistent with the Falklands Units policy, isn't this is a problem with the Falklands units policy?
- Three editors above have asserted that following the sources causes inconsistency. However, the opposite appears to be happening here. If the Falklands Units policy prescribes inconsistency when MOSNUM does not, then isn't the issue of a source based approach a bit of a red herring?
- As far as I can see, this isn't primarily a question of following the sources but whether the Falklands Units policy remains current, and whether it is compatible with MOSNUM. If the Falklands Units policy is still current and it takes precedence over MOSNUM policy for Falklands articles, this could force inconsistent usage on articles which at the moment appear to be both consistent in usage and consistent with the sources.Therefore, the question as I see it is not about a source-based approach, but whether MOSNUM policy or Falklands Units policy should apply to Falklands articles. Michael Glass (talk) 23:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
- I think there are some questions to determine:
- The page WP:FALKLANDSUNITS was written between March and July 2010. Its opening paragraph is in my view a piece of text book WP:SYN written to justify a piece of WP:POV. (I will justify this in a later posting if necessary, but at the moment I see no justification for the page and I think that it can be discarded without looking at its detail).
- A check on its history and Talk page will show that WP:FALKLANDSUNITS (written March to July 2010) was not an act of consensus, but really an act of bullying by is principal author User:Pfainuk aka User:Kahastok backed up by User:Justin A Kuntz aka User:Wee Curry Monster. The reason that Michael and I gave up was to avoid the situation that happened a few months later in the Gibralter project when both Pfainuk/Kahastok and Justin A Kuntz/Wee Curry Monster (along with others) received sanctions for edit warring in December 2012 and again in [2011]. (These sanctions were lifted on a trial basis in October 2012.
- Since then centralisation of all MOS-type pages into MOS-space was agreed by the Wikipedia community at large. The arguments used for this merger were essentially the same arguments that I used when to merge the WP:FALKLANDSUNITS page into WP:MOSNUM but was shouted down by Pfainuk and Justin Kuntz.
- Given the centralisation of all MOS-type pages, I see absolutely no reason that the page WP:FALKALNDSUNITS should exist outside MOS-space - it is a MOS-type page that impinges not only to the Falkland Islands work group, but to other groups and project, including, but not limited to the islands group/project, the UK group/project, the fisheries group/project, the Argentine group/project and the geology group/project. In October this year I revisited WP:FALKLANDSUNITS and tried to regularise the situation. As I saw it, there were three options:
- Merge the text into MOSNUM.
- Move the page into MOS space and leave a reference in MOSNUM to this page
- Redirect this page to MOSNUM on grounds that it adds nothing new.
- Given the centralisation of all MOS-type pages, I see absolutely no reason that the page WP:FALKALNDSUNITS should exist outside MOS-space - it is a MOS-type page that impinges not only to the Falkland Islands work group, but to other groups and project, including, but not limited to the islands group/project, the UK group/project, the fisheries group/project, the Argentine group/project and the geology group/project. In October this year I revisited WP:FALKLANDSUNITS and tried to regularise the situation. As I saw it, there were three options:
- I believed that the last of these was the only practical choose which is why I redirected it (not blanked it as claimed by Wee Curry Monster).
- I now ask Wee Curry Monster (or anybody else) to justify the continued existence of the page WP:FALKLANDSUNITS in Falkland Islands work group-space rather MOS-space. If he can’t justify its existence in Falkland Islands work group-space, how does he propose incorporating it into MOS-space? Martinvl (talk) 15:12, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
The point of WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is that it describes the most appropriate units to use in the Falklands for ENGVAR purposes. The reason it's more rigid is because this was the only way of preventing Michael and Martin from continually trying to game the rule to try and make the articles more metric, a process that was doing serious damage to Wikipedia's coverage of the topic. Martin's recent edits make it clear that this reason has not gone away.
If you want a reason why, check User:Michael Glass's recent edits on locks see [2] for example, where he has been busily converting the articles to give preference to the metric system in violation of WP:MOSNUM. Its a clear breach of WP:RETAIN and WP:FAITACCOMPLI, he is well aware of the guidelines and its not the first time he has ignored it. He went through professional footballers metricating them. He has done the same on Falkland articles claiming he was testing the consensus.
And on the Falklands topic see [3] for the sad and utterly pointless discussions and POV pushing on units that made the group utterly moribund and drove away a number of productive and creative editors.
Note [4], although it made the article inconsistent, Martin metricated some units but not others because it was "permitted". Note also [5] where he trys to game the system, claiming that Falkland Islands article is geography, so its a scientific article and must use SI units.
And he blanked WP:FALKLANDSUNITS with a redirect, stop playing silly semantic games to claim otherwise Martin. You're insulting our intelligence and not for the first time. Check the history [6]. Both Michael and Martin have repeatedly tried to water it down, have it deleted, change it or make an agreement with an RFC elsewhere to invalidate it. They raise the same subject again and again, when they don't get what they want, they'll be back raising it again, its a simply remorseless campaign of wikilawyering, gaming the system and generally boring other editors into submission.
I did wonder how long it would be before both Martin and Michael resorted to their classic tactic of making personal attacks. Well see [7] where Martin was blocked for 3RR for edit warring to claim a greater use of the metric system in the UK than actually exists. Not surprising given their habit of editing in a WP:TAG team to force the adoption of metric preferences. The only reason they haven't done it on Falkland Islands is because an admin User:Keith D reverted them and is on the case. No doubt they'll be back, I notice both have been busy on other Falkalnds articles metricating them in breach of WP:RETAIN and WP:FAITACCOMPLI.
As regards his proposal to merge the text into WP:MOSNUM, I would resist such a suggestion for the simple reason I don't trust him to do it. I'm sure this will be denounced as a demonstration of bad faith but no, AGF doesn't require we ignore experience and I've years of experience of these two gaming the system. Its one of the reason why I and User:Kahastok have effectively quit; both of us prefer creation of content, its incredibly frustrating to have to spend time that could be spent creating content, repairing it due to the actions of agenda driven editing. I laugh at his accusation against User:Kahastok and myself of bullying, he does nothing but bully to get his own way with anyone who gets in his way. Trouble is try that with a Glaswegian and you'll get nowhere. Wee Curry Monster talk 21:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- I find it unnerving that at least two people who have been pushing a certain line keep changing their user names. If you're engaged in major debate, this is a regrettable phenomenon. Aside from the substantive arguments against their line, a social question hangs over the multi-name strategy. Tony (talk) 00:19, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
- Bull, you like Martin know I changed my from using my real name because of off-wiki harassment. Didn't stop him from deliberately outing me again and really that is scraping the barrel in terms of seeking to denigrate editors with innuendo. The only only social question is the depths some people will stoop too, when they can't convince others to see it their way. The only people pushing any line are the ones that refuse to accept people don't embrace the metric system like they would wish. Wee Curry Monster talk 00:51, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
- I read WCM's comments about me (above) but I can't take them seriously.
- British English uses both Imperial and metric measures. WCM's claim that it goes against ENGVAR to use reliable British sources to check, footnote and correct information on Wikipedia is laughable. British usage is much wider than the prejudices of the British Weights and Measures Association. The UK Environment Agency used metric units to describe the locks on the River Thames http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/recreation/135271.aspx. The Premier League uses metric measurements (See http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/players/profile.overview.html/jay-bothroyd). Ditto for rugby League and Rugby Union. Are the Premier League and the other sporting codes un-British? Is the UK Environment Authority un-British? You've got to be joking!
- It isn't true to claim that putting metric measurements first in UK articles is against MOSNUM. The very wording that WCM quoted says, "In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit is generally a metric unit (44 kilogram (97 lb)), but imperial units can be put first in some contexts.." Note the wording. It says that imperial units can be put first in some contexts. Imperial units can be put first but can doesn't say must. People can eat ice cream, but it's not a must. Anyone can edit Wikipedia, but this doesn't make it compulsory! Perhaps WCM should read the policy as well as quoting it.
- WCM has complained about my editing. He might not like it, but most of my edits stand. I footnoted and corrected the sporting teams over a year ago, and nearly all of those edits have remained untouched. I think a year is more than enough time for people to change these edits if they don't like them.
- WCM appears to have accused me of taking part in a tag team. I have done little or no editing on Falklands articles for years. The accusation is completely without substance. I challenge him to produce one skerrick of evidence to back up this nonsensical claim.
- WCM appears to be the only one who makes a fuss about the units of measure here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands#Units_of_Measure I suspect that he might be in a minority of one in his concern.
- WP:FALKLANDSUNITS appears to be at variance with MOSNUM. Instead of accusation and counter-accusation we would be more productively using our time in determining whether this policy still has support amongst current editors of Falklands articles. It's certainly quite at variance with MOSNUM in its present form. Michael Glass (talk) 03:12, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
- The use of the metric system has a number of political overtones - many Eurosceptic and "Little Englanders" use imperial units of measure as a "badge of honour". Others, whose work require the frequent manipulation of numbers (such as engineers) have a similar disdain for the imperial system because it is so cumbersome, while many academics and others who have frequent communication without the United Kingdom also prefer the metric system because it is international. One of the pillars of Wikipedia is a neutral point of view. This applies not only to the use of languages, but also to the use of symbols. Given that, apart from the use of miles per hour, Falkland Island Government documents use metric units, I believe that the blanket use of imperial units in the article is like a "red rag to a bull" in respect of any readers with pro-Argentine sympathies. By sticking to the units of measure used in academia (ie metric units, except when quoting items like speed limits), Wikipedia will be applying a neutral point of view.
- I checked the use of units of measure on a few articles – the following good articles use metric units first followed by imperial unit: United Kingdom, England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. The article Argentina also uses metric units first. Given the political issues between the United Kingdom and Argentina in respect of the Falkland Islands, and given the use of metric units first in all of the above article, I cannot see any case whatsoever for putting imperial units first. Martinvl (talk) 12:16, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
- Oh I'm a "Little Englander" now, a not so subtle insult, I'm Scottish, I'm also an engineer. This is also the English language wikipedia, giving into editors who dislike something merely because it is British is pandering to racism. I note which side of the moral divide you fall on, when it promotes your agenda. You can't convince people so you try and game the system, its disruptive, its wasting people's time and you're driving people who create content away. No doubt in another 5 years time, you'll be continuing to try and wikilawyer, game the system and push to have your agenda adopted and fail for the same reason; you don't listen to the views of others.
- WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is completely inline with WP:MOSNUM, it was when it was written and it still is. It was written because a drive to improve articles was hijacked to promote the metric system. The reason why is illustrated above. Really can doesn't say must, well when it favours metrication it is a must but not when it favours imperial. It was written because you couldn't be trusted to accept a consensus but were constantly coming back to game the sytem. (BTW don't think I didn't notice the edit to change a can to a should favouring metrication). You're doing it now, you don't like it, so you try other avenues to have it deleted, proscribed or over-ridden by other policies.
- Does anyone remember readers, the people we build the encyclopedia for, the people we write content for. The reason you haven't got WP:MOSNUM to mandate metric units across the board is that it is not in everyday usage. We adopt a format of providing information in a manner that our readers find most useful. The reason I don't use exclusively metric is that it wouldn't serve the people we write articles for. This isn't about writing quality articles its about WP:ADVOCACY.
- And lets pick an article at random, Martin claims for example, that United Kingdom uses metric units followed by imperial no it doesn't, unsurprisingly it follows WP:MOSNUM, which would be one of the criteria in evaluating a WP:GA. Following the agenda dictated by Michael and Martin would hinder a drive to get an article to GA status. Nor is it the case that I'm insisting on exclusively imperial first, no I'm following WP:FALKLANDSUNITS and WP:MOSNUM giving height in feet first, distance in miles first and applying a little common sense rather than giving an area in sq mi first to be in line with the rest of the article, the rest of the use of units is metric first per WP:MOSNUM. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:22, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
- @Wee Curry Monster: I never said that you were a "Little Englander", least of all on St. Andrew's Day.
- In response to what the readers need - We use US type units and measure for US-related articles because most of the readers are American, likewise for the United Kingdom and for Australia. However, the Falklands are different - the article "Falkland Islands" gets about 2400 hits a day - nearly one hit per head of population every day, so I reject the notion that most of the readers of this article come from the local population. We must therefore assume that the readership is international - checking through the various language version of this article, I notices that the English version is three time as long as the version for any other language. We must therefore assume a truly international audience, so we should be writing for such an audience (and remember that 53% of people in the EU have an understanding of English). The means of international communication is to use English and metric units. So yes, let’s remember our readers and remember that the majority are happy using the metric system and a significant proportion prefers it. This also helps preserve neutrality. Martinvl (talk) 22:55, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
- That our readership is "truly international" and prefers the metric system of measurement is unproven. Unlike the 'man on the Clapham Omnibus', there is no such person as the "Wikipedia Reader". That's why we evolved WP:ENGVAR. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 04:17, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
- Which national ties does User talk:Ohconfucius suggest we target in this article.
- The Falkland Islands reader? As I have already indicated, they are in a very small minority of the readership - the article gets 2400 hits daily and the population of the island is about 3000.
- The British reader? In that case, why not take the articles United Kingdom, England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland as a model (without the changes made by OhConfucius yesterday)? All of them have metric first when discussing geographical matters. There is no consistency in the use of metric and imperial units in respect of transport. In other words, either metric or imperial units are acceptable.
- The Argentinian reader? The Argentine claim the islands as part of their national territory. There is a spanish language version of the article, but is is only one third the length of the English-language version, so the educated Argentinian might well look at the English-language version to get a greater understanding, but would expect to see metric units first
- Since we have no real indication as to who the readership is, we shoudl also consider the international community at large (including major investors in the oil industry). They would expect metric units first (The Economist for example uses metric units apart form US-based articles).
- There you have it, on the basis of national ties - none proven, so go for the broadest national readership base - which means using metric units.
- The essay in Wikipedia:Readers first states "Another group which might make a good theoretical audience are high school and college students". In England, the National Curriculum puts metric units first. The only exposure that school children get to imperial units is when they are in their early teens and they learn approximate conversion - for example 1 oz ≈ 30 g and 1 lb ≈ 450 g. I was taught that there were 16 ounces in a pound, these approximation suggest 15, but conversions between pounds and ounces is ouitside the syllabus. So, if we are targetting British (and Falkland Island) high school student, put metric first.
- There you have it again - there is no good reason to put imperial first. Martinvl (talk) 08:05, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
- I think we need to step back a bit. Wikipedia policy is to have both metric and imperial values in every measurement in every non-scientific article no matter how large or how small. This is so that no English-speaking reader will be disadvantaged. What this dispute is about whether metric values should appear first for some measurements when describing a small group of islands in the South Atlantic Ocean.
- The question we need to ask is this:
- *Do we need a special rule for the Falkland Islands?
- No. There is nothing special about these islands that require their own style guide except for the fact that two years ago there was a great fight about which units to put first. Since that time, many editors have moved on and the only one supporting the special rules appears to be Wee Curry Monster. As the dispute has flared up again, it's about time to revisit WP:FALKLANDSUNITS. Any reading will show that they are significantly different from what WP:MOSNUM says:
- Both WP:MOSNUM say WP:FALKLANDSUNITS say that metric units are put first. However, WP:FALKLANDSUNITS goes on to prescribe the use of Imperial units in a wide range of contexts.
- WP:FALKLANDSUNITS also states that if prescribing the use of Imperial units creates any "significant inconsistency" with the general rule, then Imperial units shall be put first.
- By contrast, WP:MOSNUM says of UK articles "imperial units can be put first in some contexts," effectively leaving it to editors to decide what units can be put first in those contexts.
- WP:FALKLANDSUNITS prescribes things that WP:MOSNUM is silent about, like its detailed instructions on where miles must be used.
- I believe that WP:FALKLANDSUNITS contradicts both the letter and the spirit of WP:MOSNUM and should be done away with. However, to put it beyond doubt that UK rules apply I would support some kind of notation to the effect that the rules governing UK articles should apply. Michael Glass (talk) 10:15, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
- Not only that, but since the "discussions (?)" of two years ago, there has been a move in Wikipeidia to centralise all MOS-type pages in MOS-space. WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is a MOS-type page. I tried to implement its centralisation by redicting it to WP:MOS. Wee Curry Monster, who seems unable unwilling to cooperare undid the redirect.
- I have now decided to be WP:BOLD and flag the page WP:FALKLANDSUNITS as being inactive. I sed the model that was used for many of the 82 pages listed in this RFC. The fact that it was not in the list is indicative of its importance - the compiler of the list missed it. Martinvl (talk) 13:07, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
- Which national ties does User talk:Ohconfucius suggest we target in this article.
Martinvl (talk) 11:59, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
- A perfect illustration of gaming the system to get your way, I've revetted it. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:18, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
You did not incorporate WP:FALKLANDSUNITS into wp:mosnum, you blanked and replaced it with a redirect. You were trying to game the system, you've tried all ways outside of the wp:consensus building process to FORCE people to do what you desire. The very GA articles you proselytized as examples follow the same guidelines you're attempting to remove.
Let us now take your latest effort, a claim we should write for an international audience rather than the local one. Let us now take it to the logical conclusion. The majority of readers are from the US, which still uses the imperial system, ergo the majority of readers will in all likelihood be from the US, ergo the most suitable units would be to follow the imperial first paradigm.
The reason why the guideline was written to be so prescriptive, is quite simply because Martin and Michael Glass refused to accept the concensus to follow wp:mosnum, instead trying to force their own preference. They just keep coming back and its a tendentious and disruptive pattern that is both tedious in its banality about trivia and disruptive in the time it takes to repair. Look at the reams of tendentious argument here.
I see nothing in the comments here that show the need for WP:FALKLANDSUNITS has gone away. Rather than accepting the consensus for a consistent approach to make a quality article, their argument basically boils down to their assertion policy isn't prescriptive, it doesn't mandate the approach, so they can do what they like. Their editing is a clear breach of WP:RETAIN and WP:FAITACCOMPLI. Wee Curry Monster talk 12:35, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
- I have made a formal request to move the page WP:FALKLANDSUNITS into MOS-space with the name Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Falkland Islands units of measure. The move will be publicised in the normal way. Martinvl (talk) 15:40, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Date ranges including current year
I've been noticing edits and edit reverts over actor/character duration formatting when the person in question is currently with a show, but started in the current year. Whereas "2011—" is found acceptable, "2012—" is changed to "2012" with reasoning that 2012 is the present so it violates WP:CRYSTAL. Others revert the change, reasoning that the character/actor is currently with the series. I've searched many talk archives and guidelines trying to find the answer, and any help or guidance on where to ask this is greatly appreciated. I did find a discussion that suggested using prose, or "since 2012", in regards to TV show runs, however this situation is specific to infoboxes or lists, and in most cases is the last in a series of durations (i.e. 2001–03, 2005, 2012—), so prose is not the best solution here. Basically my question is: does "2012—" violate WP:CRYSTAL? I've asked over at WT:NOT as well. Thank you! Kelly Marie 0812 (talk) 19:58, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
- With 2011–, the terminal dash means something like "relationship is ongoing" and does not (or at any rate need not) imply that this (mostly) happy state will continue next year. 2011–2012 presumably means that the relationship is known to be ending in 2012. For consistency and "least surprise", 2012 should mean a relationship that is only valid in 2012, and 2012– a relationship that started in 2012 and for which an end has not yet been announced. Anyone removing the terminal dash with no reliable source confirming the end of the relationship is violating WP:CRYSTAL. Har. --Mirokado (talk) 00:06, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
- "since 2012" would be my preferred construction. However, most others seem to prefer to write "2012–". It seems preposterous to try to apply the WP:CRYSTAL argument to this sort of situation, because that's not how I read it. And indeed if it were the case, all our BLPs would be written simply with year of birth, but that's simply not the case. I agree that the dash should stay. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 04:10, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
- It may be a good practise to consider how would the article seem if the year passes, the ongoing event is still in place and the article is not updated. "2012" and "2012-" seem similar now, because we are in 2012, but in a month we will not be. When we get to 2013, "2012-" would still be valid: a period that began in 2012 and continues. "2012" would not be, as it would imply that the period ended in 2012, which would not be the case. Cambalachero (talk) 13:57, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
- The year– expression is just awful, I think. Since ... is so much nicer. But there's a lot of the first expression in articles/infoboxes, so I'd be happy just to have the "Since ..." endorsed as useable. Tony (talk) 13:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
- First of all, no one should be using the dashed form "2012–" in main body text. Period. It's bad form, and bad style. It smacks of a C+ eighth grade English composition paper. One should almost never use a dash for year spans in main body text when the exact meaning can be explained precisely with words. (There are limited exceptions, however, such as when the year span is functioning as an adjective in main body text, such as the "2012–13 television season.") Second, using the open-ended dashed form "2012–" is acceptable in the space-limited context of an infobox, navbox or parenthetical, but the dashed form "2012–present" should be preferred. The fact that 2012 is the present is a small matter when compared to the upkeep of having to track and update every instance of "2012" at the end of the year when "since 2012" is what was really meant. When dealing with athletic careers, political terms, television series tenures, etc., those articles requiring annual updates will run into the tens of thousands. Article maintenance is a very real issue in this case. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:35, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks everyone. My question is specific to infoboxes/lists, I agree it should never be used in prose. I was under the impression "to present" was not needed? Also I'm having trouble finding any of this in the MoS, I've looked through WP:DATE and WP:DASH - am I missing something? Kelly Marie 0812 (talk) 16:53, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
- First of all, no one should be using the dashed form "2012–" in main body text. Period. It's bad form, and bad style. It smacks of a C+ eighth grade English composition paper. One should almost never use a dash for year spans in main body text when the exact meaning can be explained precisely with words. (There are limited exceptions, however, such as when the year span is functioning as an adjective in main body text, such as the "2012–13 television season.") Second, using the open-ended dashed form "2012–" is acceptable in the space-limited context of an infobox, navbox or parenthetical, but the dashed form "2012–present" should be preferred. The fact that 2012 is the present is a small matter when compared to the upkeep of having to track and update every instance of "2012" at the end of the year when "since 2012" is what was really meant. When dealing with athletic careers, political terms, television series tenures, etc., those articles requiring annual updates will run into the tens of thousands. Article maintenance is a very real issue in this case. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:35, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
- The year– expression is just awful, I think. Since ... is so much nicer. But there's a lot of the first expression in articles/infoboxes, so I'd be happy just to have the "Since ..." endorsed as useable. Tony (talk) 13:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
- It may be a good practise to consider how would the article seem if the year passes, the ongoing event is still in place and the article is not updated. "2012" and "2012-" seem similar now, because we are in 2012, but in a month we will not be. When we get to 2013, "2012-" would still be valid: a period that began in 2012 and continues. "2012" would not be, as it would imply that the period ended in 2012, which would not be the case. Cambalachero (talk) 13:57, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Decades and apostrophes
WP:DECADE is clear that the name of a decade has no apostrophe - "the 1960s". But what is the style when a decade is used adjectivally - "... in 1960s couture ...". Should that be "1960s' couture" (or even "1960's couture")? I believe the apostrophe is not needed, but other editors have other views. I can see a logic to the "1960s' " apostrophe - we're talking about the couture of the 1960s, so it's a sort of possessive - but Googling, and looking at Wikipedia, I can't see any examples of its use so I've concluded that the apostrophe-free version, "1960s couture", should be used. It would be helpful if WP:DECADE clarified this point, either explicitly or by including an example. Any views? My usual adviser, the Guardian style guide, discusses decades but is silent on this question! PamD 14:32, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- DECADE seems to clearly deprecate this usage. The fact that there are no examples of its use and no Wikipedia articles titled this way should also be pretty suggestive. --MarchOrDie (talk) 19:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Suggestive of the fact that DECADE hasn't considered this issue, certainly. Fowler, for instance, is quite clear that the correct usage in this case would be "1950s'". But of course if Wikipedia is content to descend to the depths of barbarism there's nothing I can do or say to prevent that. Malleus Fatuorum 21:30, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I follow your grammatical argument of course, and I accept your word that Fowler recommends it. I'm still unable to recall any real-life examples (for example quality newspapers, books, or high quality web resources) that use this (and I'm the sort of geek that notices such things). I think that grammatically (as someone said) the decade may best be regarded as an adjective rather than a possessive, allowing us to elide the apostrophe. As far as barbarism goes, I'm not a great fan of the apostrophe; it seems to lead to far more pain than gain overall, as it's genuinely confusing (it's/its, ones/one's, cat's/cats', children's, Marx's, Dickens's, Jesus', etc., etc.), and for what gain in meaning? German seems to manage perfectly well without using apostrophes to denote possessives, although it's from there that we derive the Saxon genitive. In general, if there's a way to avoid apostrophes then we should take it, unless of course there is ambiguity without it. In this case I don't think there is. --MarchOrDie (talk) 22:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- One way would be to rename an article from "1960s couture" to "Couture of the 1960s", but that seems ridiculous to me. Let me quote what Fowler has to say under the heading of "possessive puzzles":
Years and weeks may be treated as possessives and given an apostrophe or as adjectival nouns without one. The former is perhaps better, so as to conform to what is inevitable in the singular – a year's imprisonment, a fortnight's holiday.
- So why would we choose to treat the singular and plural differently here? Malleus Fatuorum 23:44, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- The 1960s craze for ... or The 1960s' craze for .... The slight change in grammatical function is so subtle it will rarely matter. Me, I'd choose the epithet (apostropheless) rather than the nominal function, for simplicity. Tony (talk) 00:11, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see it as a "slight change", but I do recognise that there's no point in pursuing the issue. It's very clear which way the wind is blowing (or should that be "its very clear which way the wind is blowing", as apostrophes are so yesterday?): the wrong way. Malleus Fatuorum 00:31, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- But it IS a change in grammatical function. It should have an apostrophe at the end of the s in the above example because the craze belongs to the 1960s. The other way is wrong, lazy and confusing. Malleus is correct. Just because this is the web doesn't mean we should start forgetting proper structure because nobody uses apostrophes in text anymore.Stereorock (talk) 18:01, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- The 1960s craze for ... or The 1960s' craze for .... The slight change in grammatical function is so subtle it will rarely matter. Me, I'd choose the epithet (apostropheless) rather than the nominal function, for simplicity. Tony (talk) 00:11, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- This is somewhat complicated. I can't seem to find this special issue in Fowler's. It is slightly different from Fowler's/Burchfield's "five years' imprisonment", but the second edition of Fowler's has "Years and weeks may be treated as possessives and given an apostrophe or as adjectival nouns without one. . . ." Personally, I prefer the term attributive to adjectival. Fowler himself does not seem to have discussed the issue. I suppose you can judge if you normally treat a noun modifying couture like this as an uninflected attributive modifier or an attributive genitive (possessive) by asking "What would you write if it was a single year or a different noun?" If you were talking about a fashion week focussing on a particular couture, would you write "a 2012's couture fashion week" or "a 2012 couture fashion week"? Would you write "an exhibition of Paris couture" or "an exhibition of Paris's couture"? Descriptive attributive genitives (as this would be) are somewhat unusual: as the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language points out, you can write "a glorious summer's day" but "a spring's day" and "an autumn's day" are odd, to say the least, and descriptive genitives like this are more common with people or animals. There is, of course, the specific issue of the attributive use of plural nouns (cf. "customs inspector", "claims adjuster"). --Boson (talk) 00:45, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- I would suggest that the example of "claims adjuster" is somewhat spurious, as the role involves adjusting claims, usually downwards in my experience. There's no suggestion that "claims" in any sense owns "adjuster". Or that "customs" in any sense owns "inspector". You wouldn't for instance substitute "inspector of the customs" for "customs inspector" would you? But substituting "couture of the 1960s" for "1960s' couture" makes perfect sense. Malleus Fatuorum 01:09, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- I take your point, but I don't think it has anything to do with ownership. Neither "1960s couture" nor the form with an apostrophe express possession or ownership (e.g. something that can be stolen). A customs inspector can be (and is) called an inspector of customs, a claims adjuster is an adjuster of claims.One reason I prefer to use the term genitive is that the genitive and the of construction can be used with various meanings, not only possessive but also, for instance, subjective, objective, descriptive, and partitive; in some cases these two forms stand alongside the uninflected attributive form. The partitive genitive, for instance, is usually used with people ("children's hair "), while the uninflected attributive noun is common with inanimate objects (" table leg"). One might prefer to call the proposed genitive for the decade a descriptive genitive or a genitive of origin, or attribute, but it is not a genitive of possession.--Boson (talk) 16:00, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- I would suggest that the example of "claims adjuster" is somewhat spurious, as the role involves adjusting claims, usually downwards in my experience. There's no suggestion that "claims" in any sense owns "adjuster". Or that "customs" in any sense owns "inspector". You wouldn't for instance substitute "inspector of the customs" for "customs inspector" would you? But substituting "couture of the 1960s" for "1960s' couture" makes perfect sense. Malleus Fatuorum 01:09, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I follow your grammatical argument of course, and I accept your word that Fowler recommends it. I'm still unable to recall any real-life examples (for example quality newspapers, books, or high quality web resources) that use this (and I'm the sort of geek that notices such things). I think that grammatically (as someone said) the decade may best be regarded as an adjective rather than a possessive, allowing us to elide the apostrophe. As far as barbarism goes, I'm not a great fan of the apostrophe; it seems to lead to far more pain than gain overall, as it's genuinely confusing (it's/its, ones/one's, cat's/cats', children's, Marx's, Dickens's, Jesus', etc., etc.), and for what gain in meaning? German seems to manage perfectly well without using apostrophes to denote possessives, although it's from there that we derive the Saxon genitive. In general, if there's a way to avoid apostrophes then we should take it, unless of course there is ambiguity without it. In this case I don't think there is. --MarchOrDie (talk) 22:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Suggestive of the fact that DECADE hasn't considered this issue, certainly. Fowler, for instance, is quite clear that the correct usage in this case would be "1950s'". But of course if Wikipedia is content to descend to the depths of barbarism there's nothing I can do or say to prevent that. Malleus Fatuorum 21:30, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- I've just spotted that DECADE does have an example: "grew up in 1960s Boston". It's in the section on two-digit decade descriptions. Perhaps it ought to be made more explicit, as we've spent a lot of time discussing it without anyone noticing (or noticing and drawing attention to) that example. PamD 08:59, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
UK units
The UK still retains Imperial units in some contexts. Until 24 October WP:MOSNUM reflected this usage. I note that on 24 October [8] the editor User:Michael Glass edited to change MOSNUM to a more ambiguous wording. I have therefore changed it back to the original wording.
MOSNUM advocates an approach to make articles more readable. Two users User:Martinvl and User:Michael Glass disagree, advocating that wikipedia should adopt the metric system. Consensus has however been against this. For those of us who have sadly been involved in WP:MOSNUM its been a recurring problem for some time, with both editors constantly finding ways to game the system to their position. Really I don't have any patience for this anymore, its one of the reasons I've largely given up on editing as I'd rather create content than argue over trivia with two editors who lack perspective. Does anyone else feel this is productive and has the time come for these two editors to be topic banned from any matter related to WP:MOSNUM and units. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:33, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- For disagreeing with you, you mean? --MarchOrDie (talk) 17:08, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Nope, for the disruption it causes. For the record I doubt even if there was a consensus to topic ban the two it would ever happen. Wee Curry Monster talk 21:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- If it's "trivia", then why are you getting so agitated over it? Malleus Fatuorum 17:34, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- What's wrong with just using SI units throughout? You know, like every other Wikipedia? --Pete (talk) 18:28, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Because its trivia, I'm irritated by the fact so much time is wasted on it. Wee Curry Monster talk 21:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Every other Wikipedia (with a few exceptions such as the Simple English one) is read almost exclusively by metric users; this one isn't [9]. — A. di M. 19:03, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- "Trivia" obviously means squabbling over this rather than creating anything of substance. I would be happy if WP were in metric, even though I was raised in imperial. I expect I am the exception, however. There are hundreds of millions of English speakers who are not familiar with metric. — kwami (talk) 19:07, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Well in the UK our speed limits are in mph, we drink beer in pint glasses and we can buy milk in pint bottles; but petrol (or gas for the US) is bought by the litre. In the US, people's weight (well what we see on TV) is given in lbs. These are what happens in the real world. Pyrotec (talk) 19:14, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed. The question is whether articles should be using the units that people use locally, or whether we insisting on converting them to some other system for no particularly good reason. The argument appears to be that we should use Wikipedia as a vehicle to change behaviour in non-metric countries - but that's just another way of saying that we should be establishing an editorial POV on units, which is clearly inappropriate.
- Miles for geographical distance accords with British practice, just as in the US. That should be the end of it.
- These two editors have been continually pushing full metrication in a way that as been hugely damaging to some parts of Wikipedia: for example, their perpetual attempts to game the system totally paralysed Falklands articles for a full eighteen months. They are currently trying to reintroduce this paralysis. In one case, we have an editor who violates WP:RETAIN in this area on an industrial scale. Wikipedia needs to topic ban both of them now to prevent further such disruption. Kahastok talk 20:59, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- So what's the point bringing it up here? Wouldn't one of the admins noticeboards be better? --MarchOrDie (talk) 21:31, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- There is a good reason to convert to units other than those used locally: not all readers are from the same place. Judging from this, nearly half the readers are unfamiliar with miles and nearly half the readers are unfamiliar with kilometres, so please use “5 miles (8 km)” or vice versa so that everyone will know what you mean. — A. di M. 18:39, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
What a load of nonsense! Before changing the wording that WCM has objected to I took the proposed change to the talk page. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers/Archive_138#Just_a_touch_more_flexibility.3F Now WCM has come along and changed it back again without taking it to the talk page first. That's a pretty high-handed way of going about things. Here is my original argument:
== Just a touch more flexibility? ==
In the advice about which unit to use, MOSNUM wording rightly allows for some flexibility. Therefore we get the following wording (‘’’bolding’’’ added):
- In science-related articles: generally use only SI units, non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, and specialized units that are used in some sciences. US Customary and imperial units are not required.
For many articles, Wikipedia has adopted a system of writing a "main" unit followed by a conversion in parentheses (see Unit conversions below).
- In non-science US-related articles: the main unit is generally a US customary unit (97 pounds (44 kg)).
- In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit is generally a metric unit (44 kilogram (97 lb)), but imperial units are still used as the main units in some contexts...
- All other articles: the main unit is generally an SI unit or a non-SI unit officially accepted for use with the SI.
Despite this, the guidance for using Imperial units in UK articles does not suggest a similar flexibility. At the point where flexibility is most needed because UK usage so mixed, the wording lends itself to be read quite restrictively. Instead of this:
- In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit is generally a metric unit (44 kilogram (97 lb)), but imperial units are still used as the main units in some contexts...
I think that the point would be better expressed like this:
- In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit is generally a metric unit (44 kilogram (97 lb)), but imperial units can be used as the main units in some contexts...
This unequivocally gives editors the go-ahead to use Imperial units but the wording does not so readily lend itself to be read as if Imperial units must be used in every instance. What do others think?
This was so uncontroversial that no-one commented. I waited three days and made the change and this wording has stood unchallenged for more than six weeks. Now, WCM has come along and changed it back to the previous wording without prior discussion. I don't believe that this is the proper way to go about things. Therefore I have reverted WCM's change. Let's discuss the wording first. Then, if editors agree that a change should be made, by all means change it. Michael Glass (talk) 21:56, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- I see Wee Curry Monster and Michael Glass are continuing to edit-war while discussing here. Stylish. --MarchOrDie (talk) 22:41, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- WCM is the one who is edit warring. He's already made two reverts in 24 hours. I'll leave my number at just one! Michael Glass (talk) 02:14, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- The wording must allow for some flexibility according to topic. Some people use SI, some Imperial. It's often age-related. My parents know what a "stone" is as a measure of weight, I have only the notion that it's heavier than a kilogram and not as much as a tonne. When things get down to the personal biases of editors and there are no clear external rules, then we can't dictate a policy. There must be some flexibility. I support the more flexible wording. I also support common sense. Stop edit-warring, please. Let's discuss this and get some consensus. --Pete (talk) 22:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Give me a chance to respond please.
- If there is a genuine consensus for ambiguous wording then let that result from discussion. You'll note I could express my comments succinctly without a wall of text. A manual of style should provide explicit guidelines, otherwise those who disagree simply ignore them. As we've seen since Michael made the change he has claimed that "can" does not mean "must" so that he can ignore any guidance from MOS. There is flexibility in the guidance as it does in general prefer theSI system other than certain examples in common use. Wee Curry Monster talk 23:01, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- What is your precise disagreement with Michael's wording? Michael was Bold, it was not Reverted, it was not Discussed. The WP:BRD cycle works much better than edit-warring and squabbling. --Pete (talk) 23:36, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- My disagreement is the manner in which the system is being gamed. The guideline was changed by Michael to be ambiguous, then "can" is not a "must" so he can do what he feels like. Its now been reverted so we discuss it, yes? As for "squabbling" I presume you're familiar with wp:agf? Wee Curry Monster talk 00:32, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- What is your precise disagreement with Michael's wording? Michael was Bold, it was not Reverted, it was not Discussed. The WP:BRD cycle works much better than edit-warring and squabbling. --Pete (talk) 23:36, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- I can see you have made up your mind. The prevailing consensus on wikipedia with regard to units is for articles to reflect local usage. The original draft of the WP:MOSNUM reflected that. The issue with Michael's change is that it makes WP:MOSNUM effectively null and void. I've already seen Michael claiming "can" is not a "must", so he can edit articles as he sees fit - ie to ignore the prevailing consensus on the use of units. For any MOS to be useful the guidelines need to be clear not ambiguous. And as regards the BRD cycle, it was reverted and we're not discussing it.
- As regards "squabbling" you might suggest that both Martin and Michael don't refer to me as either a Luddite or a Little Englander, as being Scottish I take great offence at the latter. Wee Curry Monster talk 10:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps WCM could explain how taking a proposal to the talk page, leaving it for three days for comments and then making a change which stood unchallenged for more than six weeks is gaming the system. We have a clear choice here: wording that allows editors the flexibility to decide whether Imperial or metric units should be put first in British articles.
Remember the dispute in Gulliver's Travels about which end to open eggs? Here is a quote:
That all true believers shall break their eggs at the convenient end: and which is the convenient end, seems, in my humble opinion, to be left to every man's conscience....
I have proposed that editors in British articles should have the freedom to decide which unit comes first. Two editors believe that this is the greatest threat to Wikipedia ever! At this point I invite you, gentle reader, to click on this link and enjoy the great egg controversy from Gulliver's Travels. http://kesuresh.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/great-egg-controversy.html Michael Glass (talk) 02:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- Freedom to decide? No, Michael, you haven't given freedom to decide, you've watered down a guideline so that you personally can do whatever you like, chanting the mantra "can" is not a "must". For a MOS to be useful it has to give clear guidelines. The current consensus is to follow local usage. The guidance as originally formulated did that, you changed it to be ambiguous because you disagree with the prevailing consensus and wish to impose your own personal preference.
- If you don't like the consensus then please, do it properly, convince the rest of the editors at MOSNUM to adopt the metric system. Don't constantly try to game the system, its counter productive; it puts peoples backs up and hardens attitudes against you.
- And no I don't consider a unit order preference to be the greatest threat to wikipedia ever but your editing is disruptive, in constantly trying to game the system to adopt your preference. Personally I consider it trivia and really not worthy of the billions of electrons squandered in endlessly debated on it. Really get a sense of perspective, we should be writing articles for our readers and if there is a local usage convention follow it. The metric equivalent is given so why do you insist that the metric must come first? Wee Curry Monster talk 10:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- WCM:
- It's gaming the system to do two edits in 24 hours to get your way with the wording. So if you think I gamed the system, you are tarred with the same brush.
- It's being high-handed to change the wording without discussing the edit first. That's what you did.
- It's a lie to say that I'm trying to get everyone to use the metric system. The wording you changed so high-handedly explicitly stated the opposite: "metric units can be put first".
- You claim that your wording has consensus and yet within 24 hours one uninvolved editor has already stated that he prefers my wording. Compare that with my wording, which was proposed first and then stood unchallenged for more than six weeks.
- You claim the wording you changed is ambiguous. It's not. It's your wording that's ambiguous. It uses the descriptive wording "imperial units are still used as the main units..." when you intend to use it to force the use of imperial units.
- You claim that the prejudices of the British Weights and Measures Association are "local usage" when you know full well that UK usage varies more widely.
- Instead of making personal attacks, I invite you to discuss the wording. Perhaps if we all discussed the wording we could come up with something better than either your preferred version or mine. Michael Glass (talk) 13:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- Michael it would be a lot better if you would actually discuss the wording instead of prosletising like the Angry Young Man in the Billy Joel song. And no Michael its not a lie, its sad but it stems from long bitter experience of you gaming the system. Does any of that diatribe actually address the issue, really what I am utterly fed up with is your constantly whining about personal attacks, whilst you lash out in all directions and you constantly revisting the same old ground. I don't claim your wording is ambiguous it is, you yourself have used it to state it is ambiguous, "can" is not a "must", so you'll do whatever you feel like. Is a guideline that doesn't offer guidance worth anything?
- And the only person to actually lie blatantly would be you Michael, when you claim I am trying to force the use of Imperial units. Clearly no I'm not, what I'm actually arguing is to use BOTH, with the preference for a SUBSET to have the UNIT ORDER reflecting LOCAL USAGE. Metric/Imperial in the main but a SUBSET that uses Imperial/Metric in line with LOCAL USAGE. I have added emphasis so there is no doubt as to what is proposed. I request that you stop misrepresenting what is actually proposed, without the hyperbole and without trying to portray everyone else as a Luddite or a Little Englander. You on the other hand insist it has be Metric first come what may. Get a sense of perspective here, does it need all this aggro? FFS this is a spat about a trivial issue and its simply not worth all the crap that accompanies any discussion with you.
- Again we see you gaming the system by claiming that "local usage" in the UK is different, let me guess, the local usage would be preferrentially metric according to you? Am I wrong?
- Let us start, step by step, does Manual of Style advocate that articles follow local usage (YES/NO)? Simple question, its a YES/NO answer. Try and stick to that please. Wee Curry Monster talk 13:37, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- It's a bit hard to know where to start with your unparagraphed rant, but here goes:
- WCM, you are almost unparalleled in dishing it out; please don't bellyache when some comes back to you.
- WCM, I have never called you a little Englander and I don't recall describing you as a Luddite. Please don't blame me for the slights of others.
- The problem with your wording is that usage can't be defined so neatly as the Times Guide does for its newspaper. As you know well, it is middle of the road as far as using metrics goes. Some are more metric, others are less. Ditto with sources of information. That's why we need more flexibility in the wording.
- If you think that can is ambiguous whereas must is not, then we're not speaking the same language. The two words are saying different things, but that does not make one ambiguous and the other not.
- The answer to your last question is YES. That's why I believe in following local sources, like the Environmental Authority for the dimensions of the locks on the River Thames, or the English Premier League for the height and weight of the footballers.
- Michael Glass (talk) 02:25, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- It's a bit hard to know where to start with your unparagraphed rant, but here goes:
- WCM:
- I'm not at all happy with the behaviour of Wee Curry Monster (who, if you didn't know, has a history of changing his username). Tony (talk) 08:14, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- I am becoming distinctly unhappy with your behaviour Sir. You know why I have changed my username, once, which was to stop using my real name due to off-wiki harassment. You know this and refer to it in a manner to imply something untoward. You Sir, are simply trying to be provocative and I suggest you stop. Please stop pretending you're being a neutral observer, when its very clear you have taken a side. Wee Curry Monster talk 10:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- Comment there's already a broad consensus at Falkland Islands work group/Units to proceed with the move/merge. I say some editor makes it happen and be done with all this drama. From my bitter experience with Wee I can attest that there are only two ways a discussion with him will end:
- 1- Wee gets his way.
- 2- Goto 1.
- No editor possess a veto power so however he might not like it, the consensus of the majority is to support the edit. There's really no point in dragging this issue any more. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- "The consensus of the majority" is a meaningless statement, since these things are not a majority vote. Unless of course you're Michael, since he argues that consensus can be carried by 50%+1 if it favours your POV, but must be unanimous if it doesn't. He has in fact in the past argued this in those terms. Kahastok talk 18:43, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- Kahastok, it is more than clear at this point that an agreement will not be reached among 100% of the editors. The request for move/merge has been up for 10 days now and it has been thoroughly discussed.. At present there's more personal attacks than actual discussion. There's 4 editors for and 2 against, how long shall this be dragged? When it is clear that a 100% consensus is not possible, then we act on the majority consensus and move forward. Otherwise a minority of editors (and I'm not referring to you and Wee but in general) could game the system forever preventing any kind of edit they disagree with from happening. There's a reasonable amount of time for a discussion to go on before it turns sour and I believe this one has reached that point. I repeat: lets make the change the majority agrees on and move on from there. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Michael's wording moved the text significantly further to the metric end of the spectrum, and for all his argument about flexibility, made the guideline significantly less flexible. The previous wording allowed flexibility in most cases, but suggested that imperial should be used for those instances listed, which are explicitly marked as imperial-first by style guide of the United Kingdom's newspaper of record, the Times. These usages mark the instances where imperial usage is still clearly predominant in British usage - distance, speed, fuel consumption, personal height and weight, quantities of beer and cider, and quantities of milk when measured in bottles.
(Incidentally, the current wording is significantly misleading in that it implies that the Times is to be considered one of many. It is not. It is the Times' guidance that we're taking as the basis for our rules.)
Michael's wording, as he now interprets it, implies that actually, all units should be metric. In those few instances where there is flexibility, imperial is allowed but can and will be mass-converted to metric. Note that Michael insists - contrary to both common practice and both the letter and spirit of MOSNUM as clearly spelt out within its first few sentences - that the principles behind WP:RETAIN do not apply to units, and thus that he may freely mass-convert entire topics to metric for no reason other than that that is his preferred style. If someone disagreed with his preferred style, and converted the thousands of pages that he has applied this to back again, it is difficult to believe that he would not cry blue murder. Kahastok talk 18:43, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- Kahastok's comment above requires me to reply.
- WCM's intended his wording to be a must, not a should. It is less flexible than my wording, which stood unchallenged for more than six weeks. To present WCM's as a should misrepresents the reality.
- WCM's wording has been challenged by more than one editor. It plainly does not have consensus support. This contrasts with the previous wording which stood unchallenged for more than a month.
- The reference to the Times Guide is unchanged in both versions. Bringing it up is a red herring.
- My wording explicitly says, imperial units can be put first. It is not honest dealing to state or imply that it means the opposite
- Kahastok's concern about my edits is not the issue here. The issue is the wording of the policy.
- Now about WCM's edit:
- WCM edited MOSNUM without prior discussion.
- WCM's two edits in the space of a day to maintain his preferred wording is quite questionable.
- WCM's edit has been criticised by previously uninvolved editors. I agree with Gaba's point above
- Therefore I believe that WCM's edit should not remain. Michael Glass (talk) 01:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- WCM's edit should remain because the pre-Glass statement indicated it was a toss-up which unit should go first in the cases listed, when in fact, the imperial unit should usually go first in those cases. And there is no doubt in my mind that every time Michael Glass edits this guideline it is for the purpose of advancing his campaign to metricate the world, starting with Wikipedia. Jc3s5h (talk) 02:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- My experience in dealing with date formats and English code spellings tells me that MG's proposal to give discretion to editors at individual article level is undesirable, and will result in conflict re same across numerous talk pages for British topics. It should be written firmly into the guideline which specific units are to be put first in British articles, probably within the ENGVAR section, and incorporate similar provisions as WP:RETAIN to preserve stability. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 02:28, 11 December 2012 (UTC)