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::::: You make a statement that you can't support, so you decide to call me silly. That's very mature and does a lot to advance your case. How about you retract that? The rest of your diatribe has now descended into ''argumentum ad extremum'': if it doesn't say exactly what you believe it should say, then there's no other possibility. {{tq|"If MoS were not intended for cross-article consistency {{em|it would not exist}}"}}. Utter codswallop and you know it. There are lots of purposes for our PAG, as I've quoted above, but "cross-article consistency" isn't one of them. You seem to be the one who's arguing for the sake of arguing, along with a large dose of IDIDNTHEARTHAT. --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 15:42, 16 July 2018 (UTC) |
::::: You make a statement that you can't support, so you decide to call me silly. That's very mature and does a lot to advance your case. How about you retract that? The rest of your diatribe has now descended into ''argumentum ad extremum'': if it doesn't say exactly what you believe it should say, then there's no other possibility. {{tq|"If MoS were not intended for cross-article consistency {{em|it would not exist}}"}}. Utter codswallop and you know it. There are lots of purposes for our PAG, as I've quoted above, but "cross-article consistency" isn't one of them. You seem to be the one who's arguing for the sake of arguing, along with a large dose of IDIDNTHEARTHAT. --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 15:42, 16 July 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::I didn't call you silly, I suggested that we not continue a silly discussion. I didn't make the statement you're reacting to. And I did support it; just because it's not a rule you can thump like a bible doesn't mean the principle doesn't exist. This has already been explained to you. Reacting angrily is not an argument, and since you've not provided an actual rebuttal of anything substantive or meaningful, I decline to re-repeat; circular argument isn't conducive to resolving anything, and it doesn't look like anyone else cares about this diversion anyway. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 09:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC) |
::::::I didn't call you silly, I suggested that we not continue a silly discussion. I didn't make the statement you're reacting to. And I did support it; just because it's not a rule you can thump like a bible doesn't mean the principle doesn't exist. This has already been explained to you. Reacting angrily is not an argument, and since you've not provided an actual rebuttal of anything substantive or meaningful, I decline to re-repeat; circular argument isn't conducive to resolving anything, and it doesn't look like anyone else cares about this diversion anyway. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 09:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::: SMcCandlish - our present "style guidelines and any item in them is that they are to be applied {{em|regardless what article you're working on}}" '''don't work'''. They are not inclusive. They are taken by some users to delete the Basques and the Catalans from our encyclopaedia, an encyclopaedia which should be a record of the sum of '''all''' human knowledge, including the Basques and the Catalans. At present, the style guidelines are ethnically cleansing both nationalities out of history. Things need to change, and I agree 100% with what Doug is saying. He has shown "compelling reasons" that "objectively improve the encyclopedia". Take a few days to seagull-view what's been happening, please. [[User:Llywelyn2000|Llywelyn2000]] ([[User talk:Llywelyn2000|talk]]) 07:27, 18 July 2018 (UTC) |
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===Problem with the scope and alternative proposal=== |
===Problem with the scope and alternative proposal=== |
Revision as of 07:28, 18 July 2018
Manual of Style | ||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 45 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Question - How should the Lead and Infobox be set out for people who worked as a duo?
Here's a question, and I just want to see what people think. When one thinks of a duo on television or the stage, such as in comedy, what is the proper way the Lead and Infobox should be set up as? I mean, when we think about it, should the Lead be really set up like this:
"Eric Morecambe (John Eric Bartholomew, 14 May 1926 – 28 May 1984) and Ernie Wise (Ernest Wiseman, 27 November 1925 – 21 March 1999), known as Morecambe and Wise (also Eric and Ernie), were an iconic English comic double act, working in variety, radio, film and most successfully in television."
And should the infobox then include details on that persons date of birth and the day of death (where applicable)?
Or should the articles covering such partnerships be done differently? Should their Leads be set out as such:
"Morecambe and Wise (also Eric and Ernie) are an iconic English comic double act consisting of Eric Morecambe and Ernie Wise, who are primarily known for their work in variety, radio, film, and in television, of which they achieved most success in the latter."
I just wonder which is more appropriate. Why should biographical snippets on performers in a duo be put into such articles, when their own biographical articles cover that essentially? GUtt01 (talk) 21:11, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
First use of name after lede
After the initial mention of any name, the person should generally be referred to by surname only
Does this sentence count the lede/lead? It should clarify. In biographies, I've traditionally seen the first+last name repeated on first usage after the lede, which is in line with Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies/2014 archive#Use of surname alone and repetition of full name. czar 23:54, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Surnames for drag queens
Further input is requested at Category talk:RuPaul's Drag Race contestants#Sorting --woodensuperman 15:49, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Further to above, editors have blanketly removed defaultsort keys from all of the articles, so some further input is desperately needed. --woodensuperman 09:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Info-boxes in BLPs
Hello, I was wondering if anyone could elucidate the circumstances that would lead to a successful argument for not including an infobox on BLP. There is an ongoing discussion on Nicholas Hoult's Talk page about the inclusion of an infobox and there seems to be no convincing the editors there. Information like the current age is being called vital and consistency is being used as a ground for inclusion. If that's the case then why is it that there is an option in the first place to not include them? I'm really at a loss for words to counter such arguments and might need an expert opinion here. I am not saying that Hoult's artcile should have an infobox and it's absolutely fine if it improves the article in any way, but I'd really like to understand what really is a fair argument when it comes to such discussions. I'll ping the participants of the discussion if that's deemed necessary, thank you. VedantTalk 15:28, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- I can't tell whether this is an honest question or "I can't understand why the people who disagree with me are so blind", but assuming the former per WP:AGF: Try WP:DISINFOBOX. Infoboxes often are unable to describe nuanced information in a non-superficial way (e.g. someone who changed religions or citizenships, but the infobox lists one), and in some of the worst cases take up a lot of screen real estate to provide more or less the same information as the first sentence of the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:17, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ugh, it is in good faith and my question simply are: is age being mentioned a valid argument? Or is consistency one? I get that there might not be anything valid when it comes to such discussions, but if there's any way of knowing if these two arguments have any substance then it'd be a great help. Because these two can be brought up in any infobox discussion and can be Endgame. VedantTalk 17:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- Just an FYI, religion is no longer an option in most infoboxes, and citizenship doesn't need a lot of explanation. Citizenship in the case of athletes who have represented multiple countries is generally quite clear, and infoboxes are extremely helpful in that regard. I like infoboxes because they present basic facts - I see them as worthless only in the cases of people where we don't have these facts (ie people born 1,000 years ago with no info on date or location of birth/death, etc.). —МандичкаYO 😜 07:50, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ugh, it is in good faith and my question simply are: is age being mentioned a valid argument? Or is consistency one? I get that there might not be anything valid when it comes to such discussions, but if there's any way of knowing if these two arguments have any substance then it'd be a great help. Because these two can be brought up in any infobox discussion and can be Endgame. VedantTalk 17:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
Consensus needed on birthnames (ie née)
LivinRealGüd has vastly rewritten sections WITHOUT consensus based on his/her dislike of né and née to describe birthnames. As far as I can tell, he/she started one discussion that had fewer than 10 responses in a couple days, and simply rewrote it the way he/she wanted it, and seemed to edit war with David Eppstein when he warned against pushing POV etc. when LivinRealGüd added a ton of other crap not discussed. The MOS is now declaring that it CANNOT be used because it's "gendered" which is even further from the actual (brief) discussion (those against its use mainly felt it was too archaic and "French"). This is not how we update MOS:BIO, especially for something as visible as ledes of biographies. I discovered this because someone nominated the née template for deletion on the grounds that it "contradicts MOS:MULTIPLENAMES" (a shortcut created by ... drum roll... LivinRealGüd). I propose a real and thorough discussion, in order to determine a legitimate consensus, per Wikipedia guidelines. We should have hundreds of responses on something like this, not eight. An RFC is probably in order. —МандичкаYO 😜 05:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- I had an idea for the usage of né and née, I made the proposal, everyone disagreed with it, they discussed it, they reached a consensus and I added it to the manual appropriately. I followed WP:PROPOSAL to a tee. If you would like to start another discussion go for it. There was no edit war between David Eppstein and I, we had a conversation in the edit history over sectioning (as David can confirm). So don't accuse me of not following the rules, thats a personal attack and unbecoming of this community. As a reminder I began that discussion arguing for something completely different, so assume good faith. Feel free to start a new discussion, reach a new consensus or maintain the old one, and happy editing. The conversation, consensus, and basis for change can be found here: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies/2018 archive#"Maiden names" to "Surname changes”. All the best, LivinRealGüd (talk) 13:16, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- You did not follow it to a tee, consensus to make a major change to WP:MOS is not obtained from half a dozen people, and you further added things that were purely based on your opinions. —МандичкаYO 😜 15:51, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Please see WP:CON for our standards on consensus. Any additions I made to the section were asked to be made by the editors involved in the discussion--nothing more. I routinely correct spelling mistakes, fix grammar, reorganize, and format this page. Additionally, I update the manual for other people's posts when they, too, have reached a consensus. If you would like more information on Wikipedia's procedural policy on the creation of new guidelines and policies, again, see: WP:PROPOSAL. I hope the upcoming RFC will answer any further questions you have. LivinRealGüd (talk) 17:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Wikimandia, please do not change or restore the MOS until a consensus is reached to do so on this post. Your restoration uprooted many contributions for many talk page discussions. Per Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, please discuss your bold edit here to find a solution, although I suspect you will find answers at the end of your RFC. Happy editing. LivinRealGüd (talk) 18:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- You did not follow it to a tee, consensus to make a major change to WP:MOS is not obtained from half a dozen people, and you further added things that were purely based on your opinions. —МандичкаYO 😜 15:51, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Wikimandia: if you meant "RFC" not "RFD", agreed. Please ping me if an RFC is started. wumbolo ^^^ 15:10, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- I concur with the proposal of an RFC. — fourthords | =Λ= | 15:12, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- Question: do we ever only write the birth forename/lastname and not the full birth name? wumbolo ^^^ 17:25, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
- That's a good question. From what I can find at MOS:OPENPARA, it seems that the full birth name is given. Other policies might also apply... you might try searching through the archives a bit. Another discussion regarding matters related to this has been opened at: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies#RfC on the use of née and né. Best, LivinRealGüd (talk) 17:52, 22 May 2018 (UTC).
RfC on the use of née and né
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should née and né be used to indicate birth surnames?
wumbolo ^^^ 11:25, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- I suggest that you mention the alternatives. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 12:24, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
The alternative is "born" followed by the full birth name or the surname at birth. I will not mention anything else.
wumbolo ^^^ 12:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC)- As a clarification, you mean should née and né indicate surnames changed by marriage... right? This makes it seem like any subject who has changed their last name for any reason (e.g. personal preference, stage names, adoption, cultural, religious, political, etc.) should have their surname denoted with née or né. Also what happens if both the first and surname at birth has been changed? I have opinions about this but need more context. LivinRealGüd (talk) 13:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I meant that, but if someone has a different take on those words, they can voice their opinion. Also what happens if both the first and surname at birth has been changed? Since the first name didn't change because of marriage, by definition of given name, the person changed their name multiple times, and those cases are not for discussion at this RfC (maybe a new one, since you were editing that MoS section as well). wumbolo ^^^ 14:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Thanks for clarifying. All the best, LivinRealGüd (talk) 17:01, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I meant that, but if someone has a different take on those words, they can voice their opinion. Also what happens if both the first and surname at birth has been changed? Since the first name didn't change because of marriage, by definition of given name, the person changed their name multiple times, and those cases are not for discussion at this RfC (maybe a new one, since you were editing that MoS section as well). wumbolo ^^^ 14:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- As a clarification, you mean should née and né indicate surnames changed by marriage... right? This makes it seem like any subject who has changed their last name for any reason (e.g. personal preference, stage names, adoption, cultural, religious, political, etc.) should have their surname denoted with née or né. Also what happens if both the first and surname at birth has been changed? I have opinions about this but need more context. LivinRealGüd (talk) 13:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose any restrictions one way or the other née and né are perfectly acceptable and well-attested words to describe people who change their names through marriage. I see no compelling reason to stop using those terms. --Jayron32 15:02, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Do not restrict wording. English has synonyms or near-synonyms for many words. The MOS should not prescribe the use of one synonym over another, per WP:CREEP. These particular words may once have been French (like many English words) but they are now English. If you want to work with a small set of words, the simple English Wikipedia is thataway. Also, it's a little confusing using "born" for two different meanings in the same context (the birth name and the birth date). Are we supposed to write "Hillary Clinton (born Rodham, born October 26, 1947)" or is one "born" sufficient? What about when there is other stuff like pronounciations that are not modified by "born" between the birth name and birth date? "Née" is less ambiguous. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein, from what I've seen, it is typically denoted as "Hillary Clinton (born Rodham; October 26, 1947)" (e.g. see Jeff Bezos), with one "born", if that's of any interest you. LivinRealGüd (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- A semicolon? Really? Where are the independent clauses it should separate? To me that makes the date look like it is sitting there unmodified and unexplained, as if we had just written "Jeff Bezos (January 12, 1964). Also, "née" has a more specific connotation, that the name was changed when the subject married, that does not apply to Bezos. So when we use née instead of born, we are conveying extra meaning. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:09, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Exactly. I couldn't agree more. I, too, don't think we should restrict our wording to just born, ne or nee. LivinRealGüd (talk) 18:11, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- @LivinRealGüd: That makes it look as if Miss Hillary Clinton was born in the town of Rodham on October 26, 1947. Saying "Hillary Clinton (née Rodham, born October 26, 1947)" is unambiguous. Remember that whilst we may all have a good idea who Clinton was, Josephine Elizabeth Butler (née Grey) might be less well known, and before you ask Grey is a county in Ontario so "born Grey; 13 April 1828" would be confusing. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 20:23, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed, I didn't come up with the policy, I'm just reading back what I'm seeing on the MOS. . LivinRealGüd (talk) 21:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- The MOS says not to include the birth location in the parents, I invariably remove it when i see it there, and place it later in the article, often in an "Early life" section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DESiegel (talk • contribs) 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- But we can't rely on ordinary readers even knowing there is a MOS, let alone reading it. You may look at the Clinton entry and realise Rodham cannot be a place, but would a high school student realise that? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Uh... what? I think you're going off road here. Drop me a line at my TP if you want to continue this convo, I want to make sure the RFC isn't bogged down by long convos. LivinRealGüd (talk) 22:23, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- My comment was in response to a suggestion that using "born" might be confuse with an indication of the place of birth. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ohhhh. Gotcha. LivinRealGüd (talk) 04:59, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- My comment was in response to a suggestion that using "born" might be confuse with an indication of the place of birth. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- The MOS says not to include the birth location in the parents, I invariably remove it when i see it there, and place it later in the article, often in an "Early life" section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DESiegel (talk • contribs) 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed, I didn't come up with the policy, I'm just reading back what I'm seeing on the MOS. . LivinRealGüd (talk) 21:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- @LivinRealGüd: That makes it look as if Miss Hillary Clinton was born in the town of Rodham on October 26, 1947. Saying "Hillary Clinton (née Rodham, born October 26, 1947)" is unambiguous. Remember that whilst we may all have a good idea who Clinton was, Josephine Elizabeth Butler (née Grey) might be less well known, and before you ask Grey is a county in Ontario so "born Grey; 13 April 1828" would be confusing. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 20:23, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Exactly. I couldn't agree more. I, too, don't think we should restrict our wording to just born, ne or nee. LivinRealGüd (talk) 18:11, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- A semicolon? Really? Where are the independent clauses it should separate? To me that makes the date look like it is sitting there unmodified and unexplained, as if we had just written "Jeff Bezos (January 12, 1964). Also, "née" has a more specific connotation, that the name was changed when the subject married, that does not apply to Bezos. So when we use née instead of born, we are conveying extra meaning. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:09, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein, from what I've seen, it is typically denoted as "Hillary Clinton (born Rodham; October 26, 1947)" (e.g. see Jeff Bezos), with one "born", if that's of any interest you. LivinRealGüd (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- No. né is a rare and unnecessarily pretentious term. If a man is born with a different name, just say born. DrKay (talk) 17:03, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Allow choice. All variants have a time and place: Pat Nixon uses née; Michael Oher uses né; Jack Benny uses "born". However, for living people like Bill de Blasio, the "born" construction looks a little clumsy as Martin of Sheffield noted above. Hameltion (talk, contribs) 20:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Addendum – There are two reasons why I say "born", as in (born Jorgensen; January 12, 1964), is bad to use for living people: first, it appears that the birth name was a mononym, though this may be resolved with a glance to the infobox for "Jeffrey Preston Jorgensen"; second, simply writing this date does not clearly enough indicate it is the birth date. Instead, it requires a "born" before January. This is why writing (né Jorgensen; born January 12, 1964) is the best. If a reader knows née, they can interpret né. Hameltion (talk, contribs) 12:11, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Favor "born" "née" and "né" are simply the French words for "born", and can be used for name changes not due to marriage. They were traditionally most often used for name changes due to marriage, because that was traditionally by far the most common reason for a name change. I would not prohibit "née", but I would deprecate it. It can be confusing, and it adds no value. Just use "born". (and I would do the Clinton one as Hillary Clinton (born Hillary Rodham, October 26, 1947) always giving the full birth name, not just the surname. (If we are going to use "née" for a woman's name change, we should use "né" for a man's.) DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:58, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Proposal could we use a template similar to {{circa}} to give give a tooltip for nee and ne? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:15, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- {{Nee}} has existed for years Martin of Sheffield, and SMcCandlish. Since 2009 to be exact. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Martin of Sheffield DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for reminding me. {{Nee}} has its uses (mainly avoiding the accent), but unfortunately doesn't include the tool tip. I know the circa tooltip isn't great, but the idea would be that hovering over née would pop up the text "original surname at birth" or something similar. Currently the target of a wikilink ("Given name") appears which is inaccurate and unhelpful. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:24, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- {{Nee}} used to have such a tooltip, its removal is discussed in Template talk:Nee#Link target, where WP:NOSYMBOLS is cited as a justification for this removal. The template could be changed, of course. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, and it should. This discussion by itself is a sufficient indication that the tooltip should be put back, and WP:NOSYMBOLS was mis-cited; it has nothing to do with cursor-hover tooltips, which we use for all sorts of things. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:51, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- {{Nee}} used to have such a tooltip, its removal is discussed in Template talk:Nee#Link target, where WP:NOSYMBOLS is cited as a justification for this removal. The template could be changed, of course. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for reminding me. {{Nee}} has its uses (mainly avoiding the accent), but unfortunately doesn't include the tool tip. I know the circa tooltip isn't great, but the idea would be that hovering over née would pop up the text "original surname at birth" or something similar. Currently the target of a wikilink ("Given name") appears which is inaccurate and unhelpful. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:24, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- {{Nee}} has existed for years Martin of Sheffield, and SMcCandlish. Since 2009 to be exact. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC) Martin of Sheffield DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- No - per DrKay and DESiegel. - FlightTime (open channel) 22:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, because née and né have long been assimilated into English, and are regularly used in English-language publications, like rendezvous and sushi and macho. I agree with Martin's idea to provide a use-this-on-first-occurrence template for them. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- So have op. cit and id est, but we discourage them in Wikipedia. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- Invalid comparison. We discourage op. cit. (note the second dot), ibid., and id. for a technical and practical reason that isn't really surmountable: our citations are not in a fixed order, and move around at the whim of editorial rearrangement of the material, often without us doing anything to move them [depends on the citation system being used in the article in question]. Ergo, any kind of cross-reference between sources will break if it depends on one source or author having appeared before another in our citations. I think you meant id. and ibid. when you wrote id est, but I'll address that one, too: As a Latin phrase, it is not actually fully assimilated into English at all. The average (or maybe slightly below-average education) Wikipedia reader would not recognize it, only the abbreviation "i.e." We have no reason to use the full Latinism when the abbreviation is familiar to all fluent English speakers; the short version is more concise and more effective communication.
Née has no common abbreviation, and there is no technical reason not to use it; it's simply a Frenchism we borrowed wholesale into English a long time ago – complete with the diacritic, just like souflée and façade. To the extent we suspect non-native or very young readers might be unfamiliar with it, we can deal with it via a template, or a link to Maiden name, or whatever. Or just let them look it up, like we do with a large number of fairly technical terms. At any rate, MoS isn't in the business of forbidding the use of everyday English (including "now English, once not English") words, unless slang or otherwise inappropriate in an encyclopedic register, just because someone somewhere might not get them. To work on the site where we do dumb the material down that much, please edit https://simple.wikipedia.org articles.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)- I did mean id est, not ibid I was trying to think of latinisms or frenchisms more or less adopted into English, but still recognizably foreign enough that they are often shown in italics. (I would normally droop the diacritics from "souffle" and "facade". Indeed I would be inclined to consider use of the diacritic on either in ordinary English prose to be an error.) I will try to think of a better example, you are correct about the technical reason to discourage op. cit. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:45, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well, dictionaries and other RS list these words with the diacritics, even if they also give the versions without as attested enough to bother listing. Facade is particular is a bad idea because c is not pronounced in English as s when it occurs before a; the diacritic – which is recognized by competent English readers – is a signal to use the s sound in this and other loanwords and non-English proper names. Anyway, let's not entertain any "diacritics ain't English" stuff; that "debate" never, ever goes over well on WP. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:45, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- I did mean id est, not ibid I was trying to think of latinisms or frenchisms more or less adopted into English, but still recognizably foreign enough that they are often shown in italics. (I would normally droop the diacritics from "souffle" and "facade". Indeed I would be inclined to consider use of the diacritic on either in ordinary English prose to be an error.) I will try to think of a better example, you are correct about the technical reason to discourage op. cit. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:45, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Invalid comparison. We discourage op. cit. (note the second dot), ibid., and id. for a technical and practical reason that isn't really surmountable: our citations are not in a fixed order, and move around at the whim of editorial rearrangement of the material, often without us doing anything to move them [depends on the citation system being used in the article in question]. Ergo, any kind of cross-reference between sources will break if it depends on one source or author having appeared before another in our citations. I think you meant id. and ibid. when you wrote id est, but I'll address that one, too: As a Latin phrase, it is not actually fully assimilated into English at all. The average (or maybe slightly below-average education) Wikipedia reader would not recognize it, only the abbreviation "i.e." We have no reason to use the full Latinism when the abbreviation is familiar to all fluent English speakers; the short version is more concise and more effective communication.
- So have op. cit and id est, but we discourage them in Wikipedia. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
- No restrictions, but usage of the {{nee}} template should be encouraged for those who use "né[e]". Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Prefer born, allow née, discourage né. Both née and né are at least moderately pretentious, and I say that as someone who defaults to née for maiden names. But I would strongly disagree that né has been assimilated into English as SMcCandlish suggests above. As I said in the first discussion, it is not remotely common or usual in any form of English and is likely to strike most readers as an error. While this is not in itself a reason to prohibit its use, it is a strong argument for simply using the word "born" and avoiding the potential confusion altogether. Frickeg (talk) 09:50, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe it's matter of what kind of reading one does, but né has been familiar to me for decades. Not sure what to tell you. Well, I take that back; I do know: né is found, without any commentary about it being obscure or specialized, in mainstream English dictionaries such as:
- It's not listed in American Heritage (the entire raison d'etre of which is US-centric traditionalism; it was started as a prescriptivist rebuttal to the linguistic description shift of Webster's Third New International Dictionary), or the online version of The Cambridge Dictionary (I think I have a paper one around, if we care). The definitions are not limited to having anything to do with a post-marriage name change (which is not all that rare for men these days, especially in hyphenated form). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:45, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- This is all very interesting. I've done plenty of reading in this area and can honestly say I never came across the masculine form before this discussion. Having done some more searching, I'm pretty sure it's more common in America, though - I notice Collins actually specifies that it's American and doesn't repeat the definition as "British" (as it does for Ne=Neon, for example), and both Collins and YourDictionary cite Webster as a source. It wasn't in the standard Australian dictionary the Macquarie (accessed online; others with an NLA library card can confirm). Oxford is interesting, but I notice it also doesn't specify "North American" for some (not many) other Americanisms like sweater. I also found zero instances in the Australian Dictionary of Biography (as opposed to over 11,000 for née). Similarly in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (British) I found zero instances of né and 10,000 of née. On the other hand there was a very small amount of né in the American National Biography [5]. Frickeg (talk) 23:05, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- Prefer born, strongly discourage né(e) We shouldn't be using gendered adjectives in English (where adjectives are not gendered) as people always screw up the agreement and as Frickeg states, the masculine né is certainly not common in English. "Born" is great because a) it's a direct translation and b) it handles cases where people's names have changed not owing to marriage... it's simply more flexible and gender neutral. Obviously the way to use it is as in the HRC example above: Sir Elton Hercules John (born Reginald Kenneth Dwight; 25 March 1947) as per Elton John. Biographical articles nearly always describe the subject as being "born in" extremely early in the article—the notion someone might think "(born [birth name]; [birth date])" would be interpreted as "so-and-so was born in [birth name]" assumes people are extremely unintelligent and we really shouldn't be determining guidelines based on how some lowest-common-denominator group might misinterpret things. And honestly, people who might make that misinterpretation are probably just as likely to not understand the meaning of né(e). —Joeyconnick (talk) 18:43, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Allow any of the three options iff they are applied correctly. Several editors have claimed that using née and né are somehow pretentious without any sourcing to verify this isn't just their personal or regional prejudice. I've also checked the four hardcopy English-language dictionaries near me, and née (though not né) is listed and duly defined in each. However, we do need to elaborate that née and né may only be used for surname changes vis-à-vis marriage, and using "born" needs to be followed by a whole name lest the reader assume the person was born with a mononym. — fourthords | =Λ= | 19:02, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Can you provide a source for the statement that
née and né may only be used for surname changes vis-à-vis marriage
, please? It is my understanding that they may be used for any name change, and indeed if we use them at all, we should use them consistently for all name changes. Perhaps I am mistaken. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:45, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
- Can you provide a source for the statement that
- Prefer "born as", strongly discourage né(e). Silly pretentious synonym, get rid of alma mater while we are at it and replace with "educated at" or other simple wording. --RAN (talk) 20:09, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- All the definitions I read specified that née is for women who've changed their surnames with marriage. Also, I think somewhere in the discussion above it's mentioned, too. — fourthords | =Λ= | 22:39, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Iff = if and only if. Otherwise an off-topic discussion. wumbolo ^^^ 09:08, 27 May 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- There has been a lot of discussion on whether "née and/or "né" should be allowed, or are "pretentious". But I haven't seen anything suggesting a reson why the use of "née and/or "né" improves an article, compared to the use of "born". "Born" can be used to indicate the original birth name whatever the reason for a change. Anyone who reads English well enough to use this site will understand "born". It is not gender-specific. It does not require a template, nor a link to explain its meaning. Why not make it the preferred alternative, going forward? Oh and i strongly suggest that when used "born' should be followed by the full birth name, not merely the changed surname (when that is what changed). This reduces any possible confusion. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 20:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Why is gender-specific a problem? Others have mentioned it as if it were an issue, but we are dealing with one human being at the time of their birth. We still permit "he" and "she", why not née or "né? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 20:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Which form does one use for a trans person? Or must one use "born" in that case? In any case there is a general tendency on Wikipedia to avoid gender-specific language as much as possible. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:21, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'd have thought it was pretty obvious: the sex that they were born with since that is what né(e) means! A new-born babe does not "identify", it just is. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:01, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Which form does one use for a trans person? Or must one use "born" in that case? In any case there is a general tendency on Wikipedia to avoid gender-specific language as much as possible. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:21, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Last year on this page there was a discussion about having long-winded introductory sentences. If the page began "Jeffrey Preston Bezos (/ˈbeɪzoʊs/; born Jeffrey Preston Jorgensen; born January 12, 1964)" it would be too repetitive. The terms "né" and "née" are perfect in this sort of scenario as they replace the first and middle names. I write "born" twice because the word does not carry over the semicolon, so to speak. Hameltion (talk, contribs) 20:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- What is wrong with Jeffrey Preston Bezos (/ˈbeɪzoʊs/; born Jeffrey Preston Jorgensen, 1964) or Jeffrey Preston Bezos (/ˈbeɪzoʊs/; born 1964 as Jeffrey Preston Jorgensen)? I would not repeat "born". I would also omit the exact date of birth for living people, as per WP:DOB. It isn't really needed anyway, the year gives the relevant context. That shortens the sentence a bit. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:25, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong at all with those constructions (except that in my view—and there has been disagreement about this—the full birth date, if widely published, should be provided in the lead). The only reason I would opt to use né in this case is that the repetition of parts of the name may be a little too conspicuous, whereas writing just the surname at birth and "né" is—and again, this is just a preference thing—more sleek. Hameltion (talk, contribs) 21:38, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- What is wrong with Jeffrey Preston Bezos (/ˈbeɪzoʊs/; born Jeffrey Preston Jorgensen, 1964) or Jeffrey Preston Bezos (/ˈbeɪzoʊs/; born 1964 as Jeffrey Preston Jorgensen)? I would not repeat "born". I would also omit the exact date of birth for living people, as per WP:DOB. It isn't really needed anyway, the year gives the relevant context. That shortens the sentence a bit. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 21:25, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- In that case, I would say it's just a matter of concision. If the subject of an article only had the one, upon-marriage change of their surname, then "née LASTNAME" actually conveys slightly more information while being far more concise than "born FIRSTNAME MIDDLENAME LASTNAME". If it performs both functions like this, why not use it? — fourthords | =Λ= | 21:51, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Why is gender-specific a problem? Others have mentioned it as if it were an issue, but we are dealing with one human being at the time of their birth. We still permit "he" and "she", why not née or "né? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 20:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- I wrote above: Can you provide a source for the statement that
née and né may only be used for surname changes vis-à-vis marriage
, please?- Well I checked some sources:
- Merriam-Webster gives:
1: used to identify a woman by her maiden family name; 2 : originally or formerly called
and quotesthe old New York State Theater [has been renamed] for David H. Koch and Avery Fisher (née Philharmonic) Hall at Lincoln Center for David Geffen.
- Dictionary.com gives "placed after the name of a married woman to introduce her maiden name"
- The online OED says
Originally called; born (used in giving a married woman's maiden name after her surname)
- Vocabulary.com gives
If a woman marries and adopts her husband's last name, her former name becomes a thing of the past. If your grandmother's maiden name was "Smith," describe her as nee Smith. This works when people change their names for reasons other than marriage as well.
- The free Dictionary gives
1. Born. Used to indicate the maiden name of a married woman. 2. Formerly known as.
- The Urban Dictionary gives
used after a woman's married name to introduce the family name by which she was known before she married; also used when anything is renamed
- Collins English Dictionary gives
You use née after a married woman's name and before you mention the surname she had before she got married.
- Merriam-Webster gives:
- So there seems some support for my belief that née and né can be used for any change of name, although it seems to be a minority position. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:13, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well I checked some sources:
Highly selective sourcing.Here's more (including from some of the very same dictionaries):- The American Heritage Dictionary: "2. Formerly known as." [6]
- Merriam-Webster: "2: originally or formerly called" [7] – also encompasses extended/metaphoric usage, e.g. in reference to organizational name changes, and quotes an example of that usage.
- Oxford Concise: "Originally called" [8] – and gives this as the primary meaning, with "maiden name" as second.
- Collins: "born" (citing Webster's New World College Dictionary); later in same page: "born, previously, formerly". [9]
- Random House Unabridged (via Dictionary.com): "born (placed after the name of a married woman to introduced her maiden name)", yet then followed by an extended/metaphoric example where it's used to indicate the difference between someone's stage and real name (and for a man at that – Mickey Rooney). [10]
- — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:45, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
- My comment was not WP:CHERRYPICKING, SMcCandlish, and I resent the suggestion. I reported every dictionary site that appeared on the first 2 pages of a google search for "née definition" except Wiktionary, which I didn't consider reliable for the same reasons we don't cite Wikipedia itself. Perhaps I should have run additional searches or checked further pages. But I was looking for support for the contention that née could be used for any name change, and was surprised to find this a minority position in the sources I saw. Had I been cherry picking I would have omitted some sources which failed to support my contention. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 13:21, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- @DESiegel: My bad! I confused some of your material with some from someone else, and misread you as suggesting that "née and né may only be used for surname changes vis-à-vis marriage" based on the the dictionary material you quoted. Sorry about that, and I struck the cherrypicking reference. In the end, I do not agree the broader usage "seems to be a minority position". It's not a vote (even off-site). Better-regarded, more comprehensive dictionaries usually include the broader meaning, and more compact and casual ones tend not to, but that's indicative of what they're choosing to include, not what they think is true. Otherwise all dictionaries would be massive unabridged ones. If even the AHD includes it, it's well-accepted, since AHD is the last bastion of hardcore prescriptivism, and the most resistant of all major dictionaries to any shift in meaning or usage. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:51, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- thank you, SMcCandlish. I was trying not to claim more support for my view than was warranted, indeed to understate it if anything. I apparently did not analyze the sources sufficiently, merely reporting raw mentions. In any case, it seems pretty clear that "née" and "né" can be used for changes of name for reasons other than marriage, and for changes of other than jsut the surname. That does not, of course, settle how the MOS should recommend that "née" or "né" be used in Wikipedia articles, particularly biographies. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 19:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, I understand the "it's not familiar enough [to me]" argument, I just don't find it terribly persuasive. Most dictionaries of any repute have these words, the marriage-unrelated usage is well represented in them, and they aren't flagged as obsolete or rare. Meanwhile, we have templates and linking, and we don't have a principle to not use words just because someone might not understand them (though WP:JARGON suggests avoiding pointless use of geeky material when plainer English will do). We shouldn't require these words to be used, since in any particular case something else might work better. But we shouldn't try to "ban" them either, since they're useful in leads and other places where we need to save space, and they're even the conventional terminology in some contexts like genealogy. If the world's collective mind doesn't implode when our compressed lead material has something like "fl. 453 BCE" in it, then it's not going to melt on contact with née, either. Ultimately, MoS's job is to guide editors in communicating effectively and consistently, not to dictate what wording they can use (we only get anywhere near that at MOS:WTW, regarding words that can be misinterpreted, confusing, or offensive). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:45, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish & DESiegel, would it be fair to say that the rough consensus thus far is that the wording shouldn't be restricted? It seems, at least to me, that most editors would prefer the openness of selection rather than having to choose between born and né/née.. do you agree? LivinRealGüd (talk) 01:56, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes. Looking at the responses in the order they were posted, I see: choice, choice, opposed, choice, prefer "born" but retain choice, use template but retain choice, opposed, choice, choice, prefer "born" but retain some choice, prefer "born" but retain some choice marginally, and choice. So, free choice dominates, and choice at least within some limits overwhelmingly dominates, with only two respondents totally opposed. And I think their concerns have already been addressed anyway. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:59, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah it seems like or "née"for the past five days we've just been beating a dead horse while going down unrelated roads. I'm going to leave a tentative rough consensus and see if there is any push back (or anything to add). If nothing, we should look to close and update the MoS. LivinRealGüd (talk) 06:06, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes. Looking at the responses in the order they were posted, I see: choice, choice, opposed, choice, prefer "born" but retain choice, use template but retain choice, opposed, choice, choice, prefer "born" but retain some choice, prefer "born" but retain some choice marginally, and choice. So, free choice dominates, and choice at least within some limits overwhelmingly dominates, with only two respondents totally opposed. And I think their concerns have already been addressed anyway. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:59, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish & DESiegel, would it be fair to say that the rough consensus thus far is that the wording shouldn't be restricted? It seems, at least to me, that most editors would prefer the openness of selection rather than having to choose between born and né/née.. do you agree? LivinRealGüd (talk) 01:56, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, I understand the "it's not familiar enough [to me]" argument, I just don't find it terribly persuasive. Most dictionaries of any repute have these words, the marriage-unrelated usage is well represented in them, and they aren't flagged as obsolete or rare. Meanwhile, we have templates and linking, and we don't have a principle to not use words just because someone might not understand them (though WP:JARGON suggests avoiding pointless use of geeky material when plainer English will do). We shouldn't require these words to be used, since in any particular case something else might work better. But we shouldn't try to "ban" them either, since they're useful in leads and other places where we need to save space, and they're even the conventional terminology in some contexts like genealogy. If the world's collective mind doesn't implode when our compressed lead material has something like "fl. 453 BCE" in it, then it's not going to melt on contact with née, either. Ultimately, MoS's job is to guide editors in communicating effectively and consistently, not to dictate what wording they can use (we only get anywhere near that at MOS:WTW, regarding words that can be misinterpreted, confusing, or offensive). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:45, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- thank you, SMcCandlish. I was trying not to claim more support for my view than was warranted, indeed to understate it if anything. I apparently did not analyze the sources sufficiently, merely reporting raw mentions. In any case, it seems pretty clear that "née" and "né" can be used for changes of name for reasons other than marriage, and for changes of other than jsut the surname. That does not, of course, settle how the MOS should recommend that "née" or "né" be used in Wikipedia articles, particularly biographies. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 19:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- @DESiegel: My bad! I confused some of your material with some from someone else, and misread you as suggesting that "née and né may only be used for surname changes vis-à-vis marriage" based on the the dictionary material you quoted. Sorry about that, and I struck the cherrypicking reference. In the end, I do not agree the broader usage "seems to be a minority position". It's not a vote (even off-site). Better-regarded, more comprehensive dictionaries usually include the broader meaning, and more compact and casual ones tend not to, but that's indicative of what they're choosing to include, not what they think is true. Otherwise all dictionaries would be massive unabridged ones. If even the AHD includes it, it's well-accepted, since AHD is the last bastion of hardcore prescriptivism, and the most resistant of all major dictionaries to any shift in meaning or usage. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:51, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- My comment was not WP:CHERRYPICKING, SMcCandlish, and I resent the suggestion. I reported every dictionary site that appeared on the first 2 pages of a google search for "née definition" except Wiktionary, which I didn't consider reliable for the same reasons we don't cite Wikipedia itself. Perhaps I should have run additional searches or checked further pages. But I was looking for support for the contention that née could be used for any name change, and was surprised to find this a minority position in the sources I saw. Had I been cherry picking I would have omitted some sources which failed to support my contention. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 13:21, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
- It seems to me that the question here is not whether to mandate or prohibit any option, but to establish a best practice, a preferred or recommended option. I see two editors suggesting prohibiting the use of "née" and "né", and three indicating that "born" should be preferred and "née" permitted (one of those would strongly disfavor "né") and several others favoring no specification. I think that may be enough support for a preference for "born" that it can be indicated as preferred, but "née" and "né" are definitely acceptable for any name change, not just changes due to marriage. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 12:45, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
Summation of Discussion
The rough consensus is that the Manual of Style for Biographies of Living Persons should not restrict the usage of née/né and born. Subjects whose surnames change by way of marriage should use the feminine née and masculine né as it so pertains to the gender they identify with. The usage of né and né should be followed by the subject's surname before marriage. The MoS should remove (and respectively explain) any restrictions on the usage of né/née and "born".LivinRealGüd (talk) 14:41, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- That makes it sound like né(e) has to be used to describe name changes owing to marriage, which is certainly not how I read the discussion. I would go with something like
When née or né is used to indicate surname changes owing to marriage, it should match the gender the subject identifies as.
You identify as (or not as) man or woman, not with. —Joeyconnick (talk) 07:47, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- I cannot agree that the above statement correctly summarizes this discussion. Instead I would suggest something like this:
- The rough consensus is that the Manual of Style for Biographies of Living Persons should not restrict the usage of "née", "né", and "born" to indicate changes of name. Any of these may be used to indicate the original birth name, or birth surname if "née" or "né" is used, regardless of the reason for the change of name. If "née" or "né" is used, "née" should be used for persons identified as female, and "né" for persons identified as male. However, "born" is somewhat favored over "née" or "né", and best practice is to use "born" in future, but not to change either form to the other except with local consensus.
- Could people accept that? DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 13:01, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Stop short of “However, ‘born’ is considered best practice and should be used in the future”, and I think you reflect consensus. Blueboar (talk) 13:18, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- In the future, lets not say "I cannot agree that the above statement correctly summarizes this discussion" if you change only a couple words, instead say "just add this one thing", etc. Anyway, if we combine all that was summarized above we would get:
- The rough consensus is that the Manual of Style for Biographies of Living Persons should not restrict the usage of "née", "né", and "born" to indicate changes of name. Any of these may be used to indicate the original birth name, or birth surname if "née" or "né" is used, regardless of the reason for the change of name. If "née" or "né" is used, "née" should be used for persons identified as female, and "né" for persons identified as male. Anything else to add? LivinRealGüd (talk) 15:13, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Should {{nee}} be mentioned, or is it best to leave it out of the summary? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:20, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not too familiar with the discussion regarding that template but in any case, I don't think it was too reflective of any consensus--best to leave out. If everyone is okay with this after 2 days, although I can prep for closing, it would be best if someone else could actually close the discussion (to do this see: WP:CLOSE) and I (or someone else) can go ahead and update the MoS. Best, LivinRealGüd (talk) 17:53, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- Should {{nee}} be mentioned, or is it best to leave it out of the summary? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:20, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- The rough consensus is that the Manual of Style for Biographies of Living Persons should not restrict the usage of "née", "né", and "born" to indicate changes of name. Any of these may be used to indicate the original birth name, or birth surname if "née" or "né" is used, regardless of the reason for the change of name. If "née" or "né" is used, "née" should be used for persons identified as female, and "né" for persons identified as male. Anything else to add? LivinRealGüd (talk) 15:13, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
- In the future, lets not say "I cannot agree that the above statement correctly summarizes this discussion" if you change only a couple words, instead say "just add this one thing", etc. Anyway, if we combine all that was summarized above we would get:
- Stop short of “However, ‘born’ is considered best practice and should be used in the future”, and I think you reflect consensus. Blueboar (talk) 13:18, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
RFC Question
Should née and né be used to indicate birth surnames? The alternative is "born" followed by the full birth name or the surname at birth.
RFC Consensus
The rough consensus is that the Manual of Style for Biographies of Living Persons should not restrict the usage of "née", "né", and "born" to indicate changes of name. Any of these may be used to indicate the original birth name, or birth surname if "née" or "né" is used, regardless of the reason for the change of name. If "née" or "né" is used, "née" should be used for persons identified as female, and "né" for persons identified as male.
To closing editor (anyone can close): please post {{Discussion top}}
at the top of the article and {{Discussion bottom}}
at the bottom. Any further discussion about the topic can be undertaken in another, new post. After it is closed, an editor may update the MoS. In any case, editors should check what is added to the MoS to ensure it is consistent with the discussion summary above. LivinRealGüd (talk) 01:44, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- It is not necessary to add anything, only to remove the current restriction. DrKay (talk) 17:03, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- DrKay, Would you mind closing the RFC? I want to make sure everything is done correctly. LivinRealGüd (talk) 18:11, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- I commented in the discussion, so I'll leave it to an uninvolved editor. DrKay (talk) 19:05, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, I just saw your discussion comments, no problem. @Numerounovedant, I don't think you were apart of this RFC, would you mind closing? LivinRealGüd (talk) 19:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- I commented in the discussion, so I'll leave it to an uninvolved editor. DrKay (talk) 19:05, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- DrKay, Would you mind closing the RFC? I want to make sure everything is done correctly. LivinRealGüd (talk) 18:11, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
Relevant RFC
Please see Wikipedia talk:Article titles#Should Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) override WP:COMMONNAME in all cases?, a recently opened RFC which is relevant to the subject of this page. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 00:30, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Requested move 14 June 2018
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 02:14, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies → Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography – Current title is wrong for the scope. This MoS page is not only about writing an article that is a biography, but about all biographical material (though some bits of it, such as handling of biographical leads, are specific to bio articles). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:34, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
- Support – The title should reflect the page's true scope. 142.160.89.97 (talk) 05:20, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
- Support: again, only seems natural, as title should reflect scope. —Javert2113 (Let's chat! | Contributions) 14:35, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
- Support - per SMcCandlish's point. Lapadite (talk) 17:24, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Rename broke many redirects
A number of redirects seem to have been broken by this move, notably MOS:NICKNAME. Not sure what to do about it. Tarl N. (discuss) 03:16, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- It used to be necessary to do everything manually, but usually a bot comes through and fixes the double redirects fairly quickly. Unless there's something about the subpage status or the MOS prefix that works differently, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Of course, you can alter the redirects to point to the new title immediately if you'd like. Dekimasuよ! 05:24, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- The bot usually works so fast, it often beats me to it, and some RM admins don't bother doing it manually any more. It rarely takes more than 5 minutes to fix them all. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:58, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- I manually fixed all those that the bot didn't get to yet. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:19, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- The bot usually works so fast, it often beats me to it, and some RM admins don't bother doing it manually any more. It rarely takes more than 5 minutes to fix them all. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:58, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Merge MOS:JOBTITLES to this MoS page
I propose merging MOS:JOBTITLES, presently in MOS:CAPS, to MOS:BIO instead, where it's more appropriate, and leaving behind just a summary pointer. Bizarrely, MOS:BIO doesn't have the string "job title" anywhere in it, which may explain why there's so much confusion on Wikipedia about what to do with job titles. There are also title-related considerations that are appropriate at MOS:BIO which would not be on-topic in MOS:CAPS.
Merge roadmap:
- Use the heading of that section, "Titles of people", as a top-level heading in MOS:BIO, after the "Names" section.
- Move the extant "Occupational titles", "Academic titles", "Post-nominal letters", and "Honorifics" sections (probably in that order) to be under this "Titles of people" heading (most of them are mis-placed under "Names").
- Merge the rest of the MOS:JOBTITLES material to "Occupational titles". Massage the text as needed to flow well from "Occupational titles" to "Academic titles", which would be a sub-sub-section of the former; they might even be completely mergeable if much of the wording is effectively redundant.
- Consider renaming the section from "Occupational titles" to something more inclusive like "Positions, offices, and occupational titles".
- The WP:SUMMARY presently at MOS:BIO#Occupational titles should move to MOS:CAPS#Titles of people (with wording tweaks if necessary for the context); then reverse the hatnote relationship between these sections.
- Retarget the relevant shortcuts.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:53, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
- I agree. This only seems natural. —Javert2113 (Let's chat! | Contributions) 14:35, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
- Concern... If this is moved to BIO, I could see wikilayers arguing that the provision only applies in bio articles... and does not apply to job titles mentioned in non-bio articles. I doubt that is what is intended. Blueboar (talk) 15:01, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
- See the section just above this one, "Requested move 14 June 2018". I think it makes more sense to emphasize that mosbio applies to all biographical info than to separate out the parts that could apply to non-biography articles. Kendall-K1 (talk) 15:44, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
- This should indeed be added to MOS:BIO and it's a bit surprising that it was missing in the first place. --Gonnym (talk) 17:06, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
- Merge – It took me a while to chase down all those places where this information appears. Completely agree it should all be in one place, here, with summaries elsewhere. Your plan looks exactly right to me. Are you volunteering to implement it? Kendall-K1 (talk) 17:44, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes. I would have just done it, but people are more apt to revert sudden guideline changes (even non-substantive ones) than otherwise. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:56, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Merge per above reasoning. Your version would flow better, and consolidate the info for future readers. — AfroThundr (u · t · c) 23:06, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
Just completed the merge. I think I've tracked down all the shortcuts. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:49, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
City, state in infoboxes
I was wondering if someone could clarify this, as it seems in recent months I have noticed a trend in multiple articles of listing only the city in birth/death locations in infoboxes, typically major cities such as Los Angeles or New York City. From my understanding, it was always common practice to include city, state/province/territory, and country, irrespective of whether or not the city is culturally well-known. I know that Associated Press style allows for certain cities to be named without a state following, but I am unaware of Wikipedia having this policy. Is there any particular reason for this? --Drown Soda (talk) 19:20, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Often this is per the documentation of the relevant infobox - for example, {{infobox person}} specifies that "it is not necessary to state: New York City, New York, United States when New York City, US conveys essentially the same information more concisely". Nikkimaria (talk) 00:42, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- And there's a trend in the main text to just give the city name for "major world cities", whatever that really means. Everyone competent to read English Wikipedia probably does know that New York is in the US. The problem is that there's not a clear line to draw. Does everyone also know where Melbourne is? And what about London? When a Canadian or at least an eastern one says "London" they probably mean London, Ontario (similarly, New Mexicans generally mean Las Vegas, New Mexico when they say "Las Vegas"; the place in Nevada with the casinos is called "Vegas"). I've always preferred being specific, though one need not do it robotically. E.g., "Sam Foo (1967– ) is a British painter. ... Born in London, Foo has worked from Edinburgh since 1999." That doesn't need to say "London, England", etc. Piped links are good enough for the cities. But some people don't even want to include the links for cities like Chicago and Manchester and Berlin, just more obscure ones like Los Gatos, California. The controlling MoS guidance seems to be Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking#What generally should not be linked, and it's mutated a bit over time. Nor has it typically been applied to infoboxes, which aren't regular prose but more of a summarization and navigation system. Of all the MoS stuff this is probably the material I'm least certain has a clear and solid consensus.
It might be worth doing a kind of "take the community pulse" RfC on what we want to do about a) placename specificity and b) placename linking. There are at least four contexts to consider: lead, post-lead first mention, and infobox, plus
|location=
parameters in citations. The old community-wide RfC on what to do about date linking and auto-formatting might be a model.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:29, 21 June 2018 (UTC) - We don't need the state/province/county of the town/city in the infobox unless it's ambiguous. GiantSnowman 08:53, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Ambiguousness is what I presume to be key here, but the issue with that from my perspective (as others have pointed out) is defining what is and isn't ambiguous. For example, just because most people generally know that New York City is in the state of New York doesn't mean that all readers will. In case of the issue that SMcCandlish raises about cities with the same names, it would be necessary to specify the state in which they are located (e.g. Portland, Oregon/Portland, Maine). As I noted in my original post, the trend of naming cities alone is one that I've noticed primarily in infoboxes, and often in the case of major metropolises such as New York City or Los Angeles (see the infoboxes of the Kate Spade or Marvel Rea articles), but I still thought it would be useful to check in as I don't recall this being the standard in past years (and I am unaware of any developments or consensus on it). On one hand, I think brevity is important, but on the other, it seems more uniform to include city, state/province/territory, country as a standard practice. --Drown Soda (talk) 21:57, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Well, relevance is also a consideration. In most contexts of simply mentioning NYC, the fact that it's in New York state isn't important. As for infobox practices, historically we've been using minimal verbiage in the lead, and more complete information in the infobox, when it comes to locations; but this seems to be shifting. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:51, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with Drown Soda. LivinRealGüd (talk) 07:39, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- Well, relevance is also a consideration. In most contexts of simply mentioning NYC, the fact that it's in New York state isn't important. As for infobox practices, historically we've been using minimal verbiage in the lead, and more complete information in the infobox, when it comes to locations; but this seems to be shifting. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:51, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- Ambiguousness is what I presume to be key here, but the issue with that from my perspective (as others have pointed out) is defining what is and isn't ambiguous. For example, just because most people generally know that New York City is in the state of New York doesn't mean that all readers will. In case of the issue that SMcCandlish raises about cities with the same names, it would be necessary to specify the state in which they are located (e.g. Portland, Oregon/Portland, Maine). As I noted in my original post, the trend of naming cities alone is one that I've noticed primarily in infoboxes, and often in the case of major metropolises such as New York City or Los Angeles (see the infoboxes of the Kate Spade or Marvel Rea articles), but I still thought it would be useful to check in as I don't recall this being the standard in past years (and I am unaware of any developments or consensus on it). On one hand, I think brevity is important, but on the other, it seems more uniform to include city, state/province/territory, country as a standard practice. --Drown Soda (talk) 21:57, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- And there's a trend in the main text to just give the city name for "major world cities", whatever that really means. Everyone competent to read English Wikipedia probably does know that New York is in the US. The problem is that there's not a clear line to draw. Does everyone also know where Melbourne is? And what about London? When a Canadian or at least an eastern one says "London" they probably mean London, Ontario (similarly, New Mexicans generally mean Las Vegas, New Mexico when they say "Las Vegas"; the place in Nevada with the casinos is called "Vegas"). I've always preferred being specific, though one need not do it robotically. E.g., "Sam Foo (1967– ) is a British painter. ... Born in London, Foo has worked from Edinburgh since 1999." That doesn't need to say "London, England", etc. Piped links are good enough for the cities. But some people don't even want to include the links for cities like Chicago and Manchester and Berlin, just more obscure ones like Los Gatos, California. The controlling MoS guidance seems to be Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking#What generally should not be linked, and it's mutated a bit over time. Nor has it typically been applied to infoboxes, which aren't regular prose but more of a summarization and navigation system. Of all the MoS stuff this is probably the material I'm least certain has a clear and solid consensus.
I've removed the note from {{Infobox person}}. At best, it was based on debatable WP:LOCALCONSENSUS from Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_36#New_York_City,_New_York,_U.S..—Bagumba (talk) 04:40, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- I've re-added it, best to discuss there. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:52, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Coming out vs transitioning
In the case of transgender and non-binary people, birth names should be included in the lead sentence only when the person was notable prior to coming out.
"Coming out" should be replaced with "transitioning". I made that change, but @Blueboar: reverted my change, saying:
No, we peg it on the announcement of identity (ie coming out), not the actual transition
I think some people think "coming out" is a synonym for transitioning because public figures tend to come out when they transition. But that's not necessarily the case. Somebody can transition (and change their name) privately, and be known by that name for many years before they "come out".
Example: Althea Garrison transitioned privately, prior to being elected, then was outed later by the press.[1]
--ChiveFungi (talk) 13:26, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- That’s a good point. I think it was written with the scenario in mind where someone might be privately transitioning for some time, at a later point they become notable, but only come out and publicly transition after that. Either way, it would be clearer to simply say “...only when the person was notable under that name.”—Trystan (talk) 13:43, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Agree with Trystan. --GRuban (talk) 13:44, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- "under that name" is a good phrasing. Thanks. --ChiveFungi (talk) 14:06, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, that does seem reasonable, and it's also less jargony and thus more difficult to misinterpret. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 16:07, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- My point was simply that (per BLP) we can’t label someone as being trans until they have actually stated their identity as being trans. That is closer to “coming out” than “transition”. If there is another, alternative, wording that uses neither term, I am fine with that. Blueboar (talk) 16:37, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oh, I agree. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:11, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- My point was simply that (per BLP) we can’t label someone as being trans until they have actually stated their identity as being trans. That is closer to “coming out” than “transition”. If there is another, alternative, wording that uses neither term, I am fine with that. Blueboar (talk) 16:37, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ "FACT CHECK: Is Danica Roem the First Transgender State Legislator in the U.S.?". Snopes.com. Retrieved 2018-06-21.
Linking to surname articles
I have a difficulty to find a specific guideline at BIO, WP:APO/S, WP:ACCESSIBILITY, MOS:LINK, and WP:WBA for linking to surname articles. I would like to use this case as an example: recently was made informative article Modrić (surname) and it links as well was linked to at Luka Modrić (see revert). Considering MOS:UNDERLINK (In general, links should be created for... Proper names that are likely to be unfamiliar to readers; no specific policy at MOS:OL) and WP:AUDIENCE (People who read Wikipedia have different backgrounds, education and opinions... It is possible that the reader knows nothing about the subject, so the article needs to explain the subject fully, Would a reader want to follow some of the links?, Establishing such connections via wikilink is a good way to establish context), arguably the most of the readers are not native speakers of Slavic/Serbo-Croatian language and hence do not know the surname's etymological meaning, and probably would be interested to follow the link and learn something about it and the subject's direct/indirect ethnohistorical ancestry (the surname article has reliable sources, one of which directly mentions the subject, and links to Bunjevci ethnic group). In conclusion, should biography articles include a link to the surname articles, depending on the context and article's quality, if not according to what reasoning?--Miki Filigranski (talk) 16:44, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- I support linking the initial mention of the subject's surname in the body of the article. Of course, it should be decided on a surname-per-surname basis. This seems like a lot of work, but members of WikiProject Anthroponymy would surely be happy to help. wumbolo ^^^ 17:01, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- Disagree: while in some isolated cases this may be useful, in most cases the etymology of a person's name is minimally relevant to their biography and to people interested in learning about them. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:18, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- Also disagree. This is never encyclopedically useful unless a) the target surname page is an article about a specific family/dynasty, and b) the bio subject is a member of it and at least some aspect of their notability is tied to that membership. It's far more useful to readers, anyway, to explain such a case in the prose of the article, e.g. "a member of the prominent American business and political Kennedy family". It's just downright aberrant to do something like "Patrick Bouvier Kennedy (August 7, 1963 – August 9, 1963) was ..." in the lead. There's a reason that WP:APO/S is a WP:PROJPAGE essay, not a guideline. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:10, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- It wouldn't be included in the lead, that is against general principles, but in the body of the article as it was done. Contrary to you, I find it encyclopedical if the article is of enough quality i.e. has a good and reliable etymological and onomastic coverage, nevertheless if the subject belongs and links to some prominent or noble family/dynasty. Perhaps it isn't even a matter of whether it should how much if it can be linked.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 18:26, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- It's not encyclopedic, per WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE and MOS:TRIVIA, MOS:LINK, etc., unless the target surname page is an article about a specific family/dynasty, and the person is a member of it and at least some aspect of their notability is tied to that membership. It's otherwise exactly like doing this: "... Elvis Presley's famous chorus 'You ain't nothin' but a hound dog' ...". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:49, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- Can you link to specific statements of INDISCRIMINATE, TRIVIA and LINK with which you substantiated your opinion? After reading them I do not understand how they do not support it i.e. make it unencyclopedic. The target surname page is exactly about the person surname and ethnohistorical ancestry, it's not like linking some random word which is familiar to readers. --Miki Filigranski (talk) 20:16, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- I should probably let someone else do that, since when someone does the "I just don't get it" thing, my policy explications run to multiple paragraphs. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:29, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- To clarify SMcCandlish's explanation (with which I agree): From Indiscriminate, "Merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia": Having a surname in common with other notable people is clearly identifiable but in most cases (like for George Springer) linking does not give more information on the subject. LINK says that unless a subject is "particularly relevant to the context in the article" it should not be linked; most people's surnames do not tell as much about them as Slavics'/Serbo-Croats'. MOS:LINKCLARITY and MOS:SPECIFICLINK may shed some light on why the way that the Modric article had surname links was a bad idea. (The Trivia guideline is not particularly relevant, but the essay "WP:Handling trivia", in the section Connective trivia, essentially makes the point that linking from the surname to biographies is more helpful to readers than linking a biography to the surname.) Hameltion (talk, contribs) 04:45, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, I keep forgetting that despite RfCs suggesting we should consolidate the trivia-related material, we have a whole disambiguation page worth of stuff; the hatnote atop MOS:TRIVIA: "... You may be looking for the essay Wikipedia:Handling trivia (to which WP:TRIVIA formerly pointed), or the related essay Wikipedia:"In popular culture" content. You may also be looking for the essay Wikipedia:Trivial mentions, or the Wikipedia:Notability guideline." — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:17, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- To clarify SMcCandlish's explanation (with which I agree): From Indiscriminate, "Merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia": Having a surname in common with other notable people is clearly identifiable but in most cases (like for George Springer) linking does not give more information on the subject. LINK says that unless a subject is "particularly relevant to the context in the article" it should not be linked; most people's surnames do not tell as much about them as Slavics'/Serbo-Croats'. MOS:LINKCLARITY and MOS:SPECIFICLINK may shed some light on why the way that the Modric article had surname links was a bad idea. (The Trivia guideline is not particularly relevant, but the essay "WP:Handling trivia", in the section Connective trivia, essentially makes the point that linking from the surname to biographies is more helpful to readers than linking a biography to the surname.) Hameltion (talk, contribs) 04:45, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- I should probably let someone else do that, since when someone does the "I just don't get it" thing, my policy explications run to multiple paragraphs. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:29, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- Can you link to specific statements of INDISCRIMINATE, TRIVIA and LINK with which you substantiated your opinion? After reading them I do not understand how they do not support it i.e. make it unencyclopedic. The target surname page is exactly about the person surname and ethnohistorical ancestry, it's not like linking some random word which is familiar to readers. --Miki Filigranski (talk) 20:16, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- It's not encyclopedic, per WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE and MOS:TRIVIA, MOS:LINK, etc., unless the target surname page is an article about a specific family/dynasty, and the person is a member of it and at least some aspect of their notability is tied to that membership. It's otherwise exactly like doing this: "... Elvis Presley's famous chorus 'You ain't nothin' but a hound dog' ...". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:49, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- It wouldn't be included in the lead, that is against general principles, but in the body of the article as it was done. Contrary to you, I find it encyclopedical if the article is of enough quality i.e. has a good and reliable etymological and onomastic coverage, nevertheless if the subject belongs and links to some prominent or noble family/dynasty. Perhaps it isn't even a matter of whether it should how much if it can be linked.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 18:26, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- Disagree as well - it causes confusion and is not relevant. GiantSnowman 14:19, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Don't link like this. If there's an article like Lowell family, then that will arise, and be linked, in due course in the text. EEng 15:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
The lead date-range vs. full dates thing
Someone removed the idea that biographical leads might just use a general year range instead of full birth/death dates, if the full dates are in the article body. The rationale was that it doesn't reflect practice, including in FAs. The deletion was reverted as an undiscussed major change, but it may actually be worth discussing.
I argued previously to retain the wording that was removed (and may have even written that version of it; I forget), due to the number of editors in the "leads must be as concise as possible, no matter what" camp at the time. I don't think they're steering the ship any longer. Clarity is more important than brevity, especially in an era when over half of our readers are accessing the site via mobile devices at least some of the time, and many of them do not read beyond the lead and infobox unless they're looking for something specific.
Pointers to this thread have been posted at WT:MOS, WT:MOSLEAD, WT:MOSNUM, and WT:WPBIO. It might actually be worth putting a {{RfC}}
tag on this and notifying WP:VPPOL; or maybe just "usual discussion" is sufficient to take the pulse.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:34, 25 June 2018 (UTC); updated: 13:39, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- I was the 'someone' who removed it. Using only the years of birth/death in the lede (as opposed to full dates) is unhelpful not reflected in practice, and I'm not sure why we have a MOS which provides readers with less information... GiantSnowman 13:42, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Dates in the lead are to help the reader identify the topic of the article, eg to distinguish a 20th century person from an 18th century person of same name. Years are sufficient unless we are dealing with two eg footballers born in the same year. The lead is not sourced. The full dates of birth and death, with places where known, should appear elsewhere in the article with full sources. That way the reader is provided with more, sourced, information. PamD 14:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Why do we use full dates in the infobox but not the lede? Why do FAs not follow the MOS? GiantSnowman 14:45, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- (a) Because the infobox is where people know they can look to quickly find matter-of-record reference information, should they desire it; in the opening sentence – the purpose of which is to set context – it's just clutter. (b) FAs do follow MOS, which allows either full dates or just years in the opening. EEng 14:53, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Well I've not seen a recent FA that only uses years; and what's the point in a MOS which says 'either is fine' - how does that help with disputes? GiantSnowman 15:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Could it be the FA reviewers insist on picky made-up rules that they cannot gain consensus for in the MOS? Jc3s5h (talk) 15:14, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- WP:GUH. EEng 15:47, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Background: There is something like a WP:FACTION at WP:FAC who aren't happy with MoS (and various other guidelines and such). While they get really noisy sometimes (see top half of Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive66, including multiple proposals to either WP:POLICYFORK their own "anti-MoS" or change WP:FACR to make FAs magically exempt from almost all of MoS), overall it's rather harmless noise, and not very frequent. The real FA-related problem is individual page WP:OWNers – editors with a long-term vested interest in a particular article as "their baby", who are resistant to any change of any kind at it, and bizarrely often convinced that if it passed FA in 2005 that it's immune to all post-2005 guideline and policy changes. They're wrong.
On-topic: if the MoS says "A or B is acceptable", then FAC isn't ignoring MoS when they go with B. I posted this quasi-RfC on for the same reason GiantSnowman asks "what's the point in a MOS which says 'either is fine' ...?" MoS should recommend something specific, or not say anything at all, unless there's an ENGVAR or other important rationale to say something like "either variant is fine so don't fight about it" in a particular case. This doesn't seem to be such a case. We really either should recommend full dates in the lead or recommend that they be moved into the body when the article is past the stub state.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼
- Background: There is something like a WP:FACTION at WP:FAC who aren't happy with MoS (and various other guidelines and such). While they get really noisy sometimes (see top half of Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive66, including multiple proposals to either WP:POLICYFORK their own "anti-MoS" or change WP:FACR to make FAs magically exempt from almost all of MoS), overall it's rather harmless noise, and not very frequent. The real FA-related problem is individual page WP:OWNers – editors with a long-term vested interest in a particular article as "their baby", who are resistant to any change of any kind at it, and bizarrely often convinced that if it passed FA in 2005 that it's immune to all post-2005 guideline and policy changes. They're wrong.
- WP:GUH. EEng 15:47, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Could it be the FA reviewers insist on picky made-up rules that they cannot gain consensus for in the MOS? Jc3s5h (talk) 15:14, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Well I've not seen a recent FA that only uses years; and what's the point in a MOS which says 'either is fine' - how does that help with disputes? GiantSnowman 15:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- (a) Because the infobox is where people know they can look to quickly find matter-of-record reference information, should they desire it; in the opening sentence – the purpose of which is to set context – it's just clutter. (b) FAs do follow MOS, which allows either full dates or just years in the opening. EEng 14:53, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- What PamD said. Stuffing vital statistics down the reader's throat literally three or four words in is a brilliant recipe for getting him to lose interest right off the bat. EEng 14:55, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think the general sentiment of WP:LEAD should be applied to everything in the lead, including the set of parenthetical statements that can often be found after the first bold use of the topic's name. So I'm generally agreeable even to advising "just the years, unless ambiguous" or maybe even "only add the birthdate/birth years in the lead if ambiguous". --Izno (talk) 15:37, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- I'm no fan of rigid prescription, but I think it's time for reform – these full dates have been cluttering leads for too long. The current text reads:
The opening paragraph should usually have dates of birth and (when applicable) death. These specific dates are important information about the person being described, but if they are also mentioned in the body, the vital year range (in brackets after the person's full name) may be sufficient to provide context.
- Here's a thought:
The opening sentence should usually give birth date (or birth–death dates), but if full dates are mentioned
in the article body or infoboxelsewhere [modified per comments below], simple year are usually sufficient in the opening sentence, to provide context. [Footnote: Exceptions include cases where someone with a similar name was born or died in the same year, or there is some special significance to the specific dates (e.g. John Adams, who died on July 4, American Independence Day).]
- I actually think the "special significance" bit is too much in the weeds, but I'm throwing it out there. EEng 16:19, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- So are we going to have to have brief stubs which have a lede which says 'X (born 1990) is an American musician' and then a section immediately after that which states 'X was born on 25 June 1990'? Absolutely ridiculous. GiantSnowman 16:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Well, if you're stupid enough to write a brief stub that way, then I guess yes. If you're smart enough to realize that in a brief stub it's awkward to repeat overlapping information so quickly, then you won't put the full date in the body and instead put it in the opening sentence. Or, since even a stub might have an infobox, give year-year in the lead sentence, and full dates in the infobox. EEng 16:51, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Infoboxes are not supposed to contain claims that are not in the main text of the article. But yes, in a longer article (one long enough to have a separate sentence about birthplace) the same sentence can and should contain the full date of birth. It should not be required to be in the lead. (It should also not be required to be kept out of the lead, which is all GiantSnowman actually seems to be arguing about.) —David Eppstein (talk) 17:21, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with the infobox giving data that's nowhere else, as long as it carries a cite. EEng 17:44, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE disagrees. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:02, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- I realize that, but that's overly rigid. There's a similar rule for the lead, except that rule says
Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article
– that's what it should say about infoboxes. Here's an example: the infobox for Sacred Cod says it weighs 80 lb. There's really nowhere natural, in the article proper, to mention that, but it probably should be somewhere, so why not the infobox?. EEng 18:46, 25 June 2018 (UTC)- I still cannot fathom why you would seek to remove a small amount of important biographical information from the lede. GiantSnowman 19:25, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Because the full dates are not important, and they clutter not just the lead, not just the lead sentence, but the very first few words of the article. You might disagree with the balancing of desiderata, but if you genuinely "can't fathom" what we're saying, then we may as well quit discussing. EEng 19:30, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- I still cannot fathom why you would seek to remove a small amount of important biographical information from the lede. GiantSnowman 19:25, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- On I-boxes: We do need to revise the wording. For one thing, it's never, ever been accurate about the intent and practice of infoboxes. The original infobox,
{{Taxobox}}
, explicitly exists to provide a full taxonomic run-down of an organism (or group thereof), and this information never appears in the article body (only the most relevant taxa do). Similarly, the infoboxes on domestic animal breeds house links to various organization's official breed standards, and these do not otherwise appear in the article except when they're used as citation for statements about the breed's features. Another: The I-box for TV stations/networks provides a tremendous amount of quasi-technical detail (see, e.g., Sony Ten), and there's no way on earth that all that stuff will every appear in the body. The real fact is that infoboxes serve two very distinct purposes: 1) As highly compressed meta-summaries of the key details of the subject, in a different form than the lead section; it's a tabular-data abstract. 2) As a sidebar of factoids that are [sometimes only marginally] encyclopedic, but are too much of a rote litany of details to integrate into the article body without making readers fall asleep; this function is for looking up minor detailia. Another example is the typical cell phone make/model article, which has full tech specs in the sidebar, but only the most important tech specs spelled out long-form in the body. So, the guideline is not only out-of-step with well-accepted community editing practice, it has been since the day it was written. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:02, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
- I realize that, but that's overly rigid. There's a similar rule for the lead, except that rule says
- WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE disagrees. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:02, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with the infobox giving data that's nowhere else, as long as it carries a cite. EEng 17:44, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Infoboxes are not supposed to contain claims that are not in the main text of the article. But yes, in a longer article (one long enough to have a separate sentence about birthplace) the same sentence can and should contain the full date of birth. It should not be required to be in the lead. (It should also not be required to be kept out of the lead, which is all GiantSnowman actually seems to be arguing about.) —David Eppstein (talk) 17:21, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Going back to that brief stub: there's no problem having a brief lead sentence and then in the next paragraph the detailed date, with its source, even if that's virtually all that the article comprises. All our information on birth and death dates is of course sourced, so needs to be shown in the body of the article where it's appropriate to add the citation. The lead is generally unsourced, just because the information is duplicated elsewhere in the article. PamD 21:15, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Well, if you're stupid enough to write a brief stub that way, then I guess yes. If you're smart enough to realize that in a brief stub it's awkward to repeat overlapping information so quickly, then you won't put the full date in the body and instead put it in the opening sentence. Or, since even a stub might have an infobox, give year-year in the lead sentence, and full dates in the infobox. EEng 16:51, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- The first-draft proposed re-write up there has a fatal flaw, at "if full dates are mentioned in the ... infobox". This is tail wagging dog, cart pulling horse. The infobox is a summary derived from the article (including its lead), not vice versa, and it is entirely optional. While drama typically surrounds attempts to do so, an infobox can actually be completely removed from an article. Thus, nothing in the lead can be dependent on its presence.
Aside from that issue, juggling the wording around isn't something I care about much. I'm not even sure I care if we go for recommending almost always using just a year range or always using full dates, as long as we recommend one or other more firmly that "do what you like". I don't buy the John Adams footnote, though. It isn't significant, just blind coincidence. The Continental Congress's Declaration of Independence had nothing to do with Adams's death, and his death had nothing to do with the declaration. There's just no relationship at all. Its a lot like the linking to surname articles thread elsewhere on this talk page. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:51, 25 June 2018 (UTC)- I changed the proposal to avoid the infobox issue. Now what do you think? EEng 23:36, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- It would still be taken to include "infobox" again, so same problem. There's not any other elsewhere but "in the article body", so I would just say that. And not have the July 4 thing. >;-) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:48, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- I intentionally made the text silent on that point so that can be a separate fight. BTW here's an example of an article giving full birthdate only in the infobox, with no natural way (or reason, for that matter) to include it in the main text: Lionel de Jersey Harvard. EEng 11:47, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, faintly hoping you might still be able to get on board with this very minor wording change. EEng 17:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @EEng: I'm not sure exactly what wording we're talking about at this point. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:17, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
The opening sentence should usually give birth date (or birth–death dates), but if full dates are mentioned elsewhere, just the birth year (or birth–death years) ranges are usually sufficient in the opening sentence, to provide context. [Footnote: Exceptions include cases where another person with a similar name was born or died in the same year, or there is some special significance to a specific date (e.g. John Adams, who died on July 4, American Independence Day).]
- EEng 19:43, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @EEng: I'm not sure exactly what wording we're talking about at this point. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:17, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, faintly hoping you might still be able to get on board with this very minor wording change. EEng 17:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- I intentionally made the text silent on that point so that can be a separate fight. BTW here's an example of an article giving full birthdate only in the infobox, with no natural way (or reason, for that matter) to include it in the main text: Lionel de Jersey Harvard. EEng 11:47, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- It would still be taken to include "infobox" again, so same problem. There's not any other elsewhere but "in the article body", so I would just say that. And not have the July 4 thing. >;-) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:48, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- I changed the proposal to avoid the infobox issue. Now what do you think? EEng 23:36, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- So are we going to have to have brief stubs which have a lede which says 'X (born 1990) is an American musician' and then a section immediately after that which states 'X was born on 25 June 1990'? Absolutely ridiculous. GiantSnowman 16:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- I'm no fan of rigid prescription, but I think it's time for reform – these full dates have been cluttering leads for too long. The current text reads:
- I am the editor that reverted the change and suggested discussion here instead. My position is that it should be allowed, and is usually preferable, to only use years in the lead sentence and to state the full dates later (probably in the same part of the article that the birthplace and parentage of the subject is mentioned). I think the lead should as much as possible focus on the essential and significant aspects of what the person was known for, and their astrological sign or whatever else one might infer from the full birthdate just isn't essential and significant. To put it bluntly, it's clutter, and should be relegated to later parts of the article to allow readers to get to the point more quickly. I would support stronger wording that, in general, the lead sentence should only include the years, but unfortunately I doubt there's consensus for that. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- There's a peripherally related concurrent discussion open at Template talk:Infobox person#New York City. Infoboxes have mostly been using full dates, because they are stand-alone abstracts, in a sense, and are a form of tabular data. For the same reason, they often have provide more detailed location information, e.g. "Oxford, England, United Kingdom" or "Los Angeles, California, United States". This isn't done in the lead because the contextual prose makes it redundant (e.g. "Snorkel X. Weasel (1943–1989) was an American underwater basketweaver best known for establishing the Watery Weavers School in San Francisco, California", or whatever). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:02, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- I don't know that I've even seen an article where the subject's full birth/death dates are known that doesn't use them in the lead. Wikipedia wide practice for at least a decade now has been full dates, and I see no reason why the MOS should reflect anything other than that. The idea that full dates are not important, or would cause a leader to lose interest is, frankly, ludicrous. If either was the case, we would have a hell of a lot more than a half dozen or so editors pushing to reduce the accuracy of an encyclopedia. Resolute 23:42, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Do you have anything less fallacious than a pooh-pooh or argumentum ad populum to justify your position? —David Eppstein (talk) 00:20, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- Well, this really is just WP:IDONTKNOWIT and also WP:YOUCANSEARCH. Look through GAs and FAs for ten seconds or so. :-) E.g.: William A. Spinks. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:52, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, we know that the FA enthusiasts have made their own much stricter rules that have nothing to do with MOS, and their enforcement of those rules has caused those articles to all have long dates in the lead. That has very little to do with whether those rules are a good idea. And citing the results of their enforcement as evidence that it is a good idea is just fallacious. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:56, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- My point was the opposite; please look at the GA I just pointed to (though this was really for Resolute). Some FAs also have this "just a year range in the lead" style, though it seems to be older ones. (I do agree with the general assessment that FAC has been making up its own pseudo-rules and/or just defying/ignoring real MoS ones, and that this is a problem – I addressed it in some detail above, somewhere); but MoS itself is wishy-washy on this particular matter, so FAC and GAN aren't at fault on this, I would think.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:08, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks for the clarification. Still, it does make an amusing game to look through FAs and calculate how much one has to skip over to get to the point of the lead sentence (winner so far: Pedro Álvares Cabral, with 218 characters from his name until you find out that he discovered Brazil, with Alcibiades a close second). —David Eppstein (talk) 04:18, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- My point was the opposite; please look at the GA I just pointed to (though this was really for Resolute). Some FAs also have this "just a year range in the lead" style, though it seems to be older ones. (I do agree with the general assessment that FAC has been making up its own pseudo-rules and/or just defying/ignoring real MoS ones, and that this is a problem – I addressed it in some detail above, somewhere); but MoS itself is wishy-washy on this particular matter, so FAC and GAN aren't at fault on this, I would think.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:08, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, we know that the FA enthusiasts have made their own much stricter rules that have nothing to do with MOS, and their enforcement of those rules has caused those articles to all have long dates in the lead. That has very little to do with whether those rules are a good idea. And citing the results of their enforcement as evidence that it is a good idea is just fallacious. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:56, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
I've notified WT:FA. GiantSnowman 11:03, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
I think the birthday and date of death should be at the top of the article, either in the lede or infobox. That may well be the reason the reader is consulting the article, and I'd rather not make them hunt (in the case of date of death quite a ways). In general, I agree with removing things that may lose us the reader, but our articles may be more useful with the date at the top.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:50, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the infobox is perfect for that. EEng 15:16, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- Except, of course, there are a large number of articles without inboxes... GiantSnowman 15:33, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- I don't mind if the MoS says alternatives are allowed, but the overwhelming practice is to give the full dates in the lead if they are known. This is not just the practice of some "faction" at FA. I checked 30 GA and 30 B-class biography articles. I found one that used only years in the lead, but had full dates elsewhere. Three others had years for pre-modern persons where the exact date was not mentioned and is probably unknown. Four had no dates in the lead; with one exception these were also pre-modern. So out of 54 articles with specific dates to provide, 96% included them in the lead. --RL0919 (talk) 16:27, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I've seen a bio where the full dates are reliably sourced but aren't in the lead (not counting BLP objections). The MoS should reflect what is actually done. SarahSV (talk) 20:04, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- Apparently you haven't actually read the discussion so far. And no, MOS should reflect best practices, which is what we're talking about. EEng 21:26, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- In my opinion it does not matter whether the lead contains full dates or just years (its a matter of style and can be left to editors to decide). However the full dates in the lead may be of help to the people over at Wikidata.
- What matters is when an editor removes the dates from the body of the text, because in doing so the lead either has to contain an inline citation to the source (or sources) that gives the DOB-DOD or the dates do not have an inline citation to support them. As the lead is meant to be a summary of the body of the article the article body ought to contain the dates along with a supporting inline citation (then there is no need for supporting citation in the lead. -- PBS (talk) 21:28, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- This whole thing does seem rather like an argument for argument's sake. The one substantive point offered in favour of a change is that readers may put off by the clutter in the first line when the full birth and death dates are given in the lead, and "lose interest" in the article. Is there any objective evidence that this is so? Otherwise I suggest we all move on. Brianboulton (talk) 21:56, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- Of course there's no "objective evidence" – where would that come from? – so we just have to rely on our judgement. Anywhere in an article, each little thing added must be evaluated for the value it brings versus the iota of the reader's limited budget of attention and interest which it consumes. If we think this doesn't matter, then let't put in the place of birth and death too, and cause of death, and specific time of birth and death, and ... – after all, some readers are after those things, so why not serve them up right there at the beginning of the article as well? What readers need to know is X was a [place] [era] [occupation/notability], either to learn the key facts for the first time or to confirm they've reached the right article. You want to grab them with that right away. While the article should certainly have all that matter-of-record stuff somewhere, the specific month-and-day of birth and death is just about the least useful thing we could offer a newcomer literally first thing after the subject's name. It's an astonishing inversion of priorities when you think about it, a small one perhaps, but every little bit counts. EEng 23:59, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- You do realize that the status quo is to allow year-only dates, and the proposed change is to disallow them and force all lead-sentence dates to be in the long format? Because your wording suggests the opposite. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:29, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- That is what happened in the edit that spurred the discussion, but once it was opened, some people began suggesting a push to eliminate full dates from the lead as clutter. So now two changes, from opposite perspectives, are represented in the thread. --RL0919 (talk) 23:19, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- I haven't looked to see when the change was made (i.e. when "years only in the lead" was added to this guideline), but the point is that editors should not add to the MoS advice that clearly goes against standard practice. RfCs are needed for this kind of change. SarahSV (talk) 23:44, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think it was added on 16 June 2010. --RL0919 (talk) 00:02, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I also advertised this thread around quite a bit, because what the actual consensus on the matter is has been open to question for quite some time (same with the location formatting stuff that's being discussed concurrently, especially at Template talk:Infobox person). On the meta point: Due to WP:EDITING policy, and guideline pages not being protected against editing, people will edit them to reflect, in usually good faith, what they think best practice is. We just have to deal with it. It's more productive, by orders of magnitude, to simply have the discussion than to castigate or complain about there not having been a discussion. It's one of those not-a-bureaucracy matters. Lots of productive changes happen when people do something bold, and a BRD ensues. (Though lots of drama can happen too; two-edged sword.) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:25, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- That is what happened in the edit that spurred the discussion, but once it was opened, some people began suggesting a push to eliminate full dates from the lead as clutter. So now two changes, from opposite perspectives, are represented in the thread. --RL0919 (talk) 23:19, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- The degree of clutter in lead sentences has become laughable. Anything that mitigates this is to be supported. --John (talk) 10:37, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- Here's some detail readers really want to know right off [11]:
James Nicholas "Jim" Gray (born January 12, 1944; lost at sea January 28, 2007; declared deceased May 16, 2012) was an American computer scientist ...
- EEng 13:04, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- To be fair, the lost at sea and declared deceased things were major newspaper stories at the time. So maybe there are readers for whom this is the first thing they want to know. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:53, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- Probably not the declared part; that's legal trivia that really only matters for settling his estate and such things. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:13, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- To be fair, the lost at sea and declared deceased things were major newspaper stories at the time. So maybe there are readers for whom this is the first thing they want to know. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:53, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
- Here's some detail readers really want to know right off [11]:
Infobox person discussions
- Template talk:Infobox person#Use of "Alma mater" – proposal to merge this parameter into
|education=
- Template talk:Infobox person#New York City – renewed dispute about "New York City, New York, United States" vs. "New York City, US", "New York", etc.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:02, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Consolidation of MOS:BIO
I've resolved all the out-standing merge tags at WP:Manual of Style/Biography, including:
- Merged in MOS:INITIALS from WP:Manual of Style/Abbreviations
- Merged in the MOS:LEADBIO, MOS:BLPLEAD material from WP:Manual of Style/Lead section#Biographies of living persons
- Merged in the bio material (MOS:QUOTENAME) from WP:Manual of Style/Lead section#Usage in first sentence
- Merged in the MOS:JOBTITLES material from WP:Manual of Style/Capital letters.
- Removed a merge tag pertaining to a page that doesn't separately exist any longer.
- Tracked down the relevant shortcuts and retargeted them to the correct MOS:BIO sections.
- Fixed mis-targeted generic "opening paragraph"-related shortcuts that were pointing here to go to WP:Manual of Style/Lead section#Opening paragraph; MOS:OPENPARABIO now comes here for the bio-specific section.
- Left behind a (new and improved!) WP:SUMMARY at the original locations, except for WP:Manual of Style/Abbreviations#Initials, which is just a pointer to the short section on this at WP:Manual of Style/Biography#Initials.
- Also took the opportunity to clarify a few things, normalize formatting, trim blathery wording, add some examples, and make updates based on recent RfCs.
No adjustments to the main MoS page should be needed.
Not done yet:
- The merge of WP:Manual of Style/Proper names into MOS:BIO, MOS:CAPS, and MOS:TEXT, as appropriate. We decided to do that over a year ago (because the page is redundant and disused, and a few bits in it cannot be found in the pages people actually refer to), but no one's gotten around to it yet.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:07, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- There's been a minor flare-up about this at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lead section#On wholesale changes; it seem to mostly be predicated on the idea that there wasn't discussion/consensus for the merge, rather than any particular content-related objections; but there was actually a consensus discussion. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:25, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Job titles that are used "generically"
In MOS:JOBTITLES, the phrase "should be in lower case when used generically" causes some editors to veer off the course that this MoS has set for lower-case job titles except under three specific conditions (When followed by a person's name to form a title/When a title is used to refer to a specific and obvious person as a substitute for their name/When a formal title for a specific entity ... is addressed as a title or position in and of itself). Some editors feel that they can capitalize if the job title is not utterly and unassailably generic. For them, "senior vice president" is generic, but "Senior Vice President of Football Operations" must be capitalized because it "is not a common and generic title that every company has". See talk page for Template:Washington Redskins staff and the edit summary that accompanied its changing back to upper case. Can we tweak the phrase "when used generically" to help editors understand that job titles should only be in upper case when there is a stinking good reason, like the three reasons spelled out? Chris the speller yack 17:30, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Chris the speller: That's just a failure of reading comprehension. "Is itself generic" and "is used generically" aren't synonymous, or even conceptually related. That said, we can probably clarify it. Did you have a particular suggestion? — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:02, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, rather than try to monkey with the "generically" wording, just spelling it out should be more effective [12]. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:33, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Proposed MOS:JOBTITLES tweak
Old draft; ignore ...
|
---|
[The above version raised an objection.] |
An earlier version, I think, had addressed this, but it's been lost in the shuffle over the years. The simplest approach is probably this:
Add:
Rationale: This would better reflect contemporary usage, both off-site and (among those who don't read much MoS) on-site. It would help us avoid dreadful "capitalization forests" like: According to Clovis Wildcats Senior Player Development Advisor and Team B Head Training Coach Sam Uskilith .... It will also encourage use of lowercase for trivial titles: During the robbery, night-shift assistant manager Pat Strelicz was .... It will also be a readability boon (excessive capitalization slows reading and decreases comprehensibility).
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:32, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Comments on JOBTITLES proposal
- I think saying capitalization is optional would lead to even more "capitalization forests". We wouldn't have a leg to stand on when trying to clean up such a mess. Chris the speller yack 20:55, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- Revised to address that. The point was that caps aren't required when used with a name. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- After reading it a few more times, I came to see that you meant for capitalization to be optional when used with a name, and I agree with your suggestion. Chris the speller yack 04:36, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Wouldn't a better phraseology be
capitalization is discouraged
? Tarl N. (discuss) 23:08, 27 June 2018 (UTC)- Well, that would be a sudden guideline reversal on that subset of titles. I'm just looking to optionalize, for the titles we don't really need to capitalize, because the real world increasingly doesn't. If almost all of those are lower-cased a year or two later, that would be a clear signal to propose moving it into the "never capitalize this" basket. I take a WP:There is no deadline approach to these things. MoS changes can potentially affect millions of articles; for something this broad, it's best to reduce a hard rule to a soft one, and see where practice wants to go over time. And on something like this, it's not that any style is wrong, it's just producing bad results when "do capitalize in this circumstance" is applied as a rule rather than an option. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:46, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
- I agree that it should not be mandatory to always capitalize... nor should it be mandatory to always de-capitalize. We should follow overall usage in sources, determined on a case by case basis. Blueboar (talk) 11:29, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- The proposed wording doesn't say anything about mandatorily de-capitalizing them (something someone above suggested, though). The entire point is that RS aren't consistent, and that the formerly dominant practice of capitalizing every job title when used in front of a name has noticeably slipped in professional writing over the last two generations., specifically with regard to commercial job titles vs. titles of public office. E.g., it is common in contemporary journalism to use XYZCo senior vice president Pat Foobar said ..., and that wasn't true in the 1980s (though the style was already well-attested then [13], [14], [15]). Just using that one job title (one that some people would be more inclined to capitalize because it has "senior" in it and sounds more important than average), there is an endless river of examples in non-self-published sources: New York Post, ESPN, Fortune, Skilled Nursing News, Accounting Today, PC World, Travel Weekly, etc., etc.; modern nonfiction books like Arranging Gershwin, Securing the Future of U.S. Air Transportation, and so on; and in academic journals: [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21] (full text of most of these require JSTOR or similar journal archive access). It's not a field-specific shift, but a change in general English usage patterns. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:40, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- The ngram plot of "vice president,Vice President" is pretty interesting.[22] Capitalized was far more prevalent until 1910 when they changed places. Then in 1930 they changed places again and capitalized was once again favored until 1998. Since then lower case has prevailed. In British English neither term was much used until 1960, and capitalized has always been preferred. Kendall-K1 (talk) 19:27, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
- I used "senior vice president" on purpose, because it doesn't coincide with national-level government titles, which have a non-normal capitalization pattern. This proposal excludes titles of government office, and is only about commercial and informal (e.g. volunteer, amateur sports, etc.) titles. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:54, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- The ngram plot of "vice president,Vice President" is pretty interesting.[22] Capitalized was far more prevalent until 1910 when they changed places. Then in 1930 they changed places again and capitalized was once again favored until 1998. Since then lower case has prevailed. In British English neither term was much used until 1960, and capitalized has always been preferred. Kendall-K1 (talk) 19:27, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
- The proposed wording doesn't say anything about mandatorily de-capitalizing them (something someone above suggested, though). The entire point is that RS aren't consistent, and that the formerly dominant practice of capitalizing every job title when used in front of a name has noticeably slipped in professional writing over the last two generations., specifically with regard to commercial job titles vs. titles of public office. E.g., it is common in contemporary journalism to use XYZCo senior vice president Pat Foobar said ..., and that wasn't true in the 1980s (though the style was already well-attested then [13], [14], [15]). Just using that one job title (one that some people would be more inclined to capitalize because it has "senior" in it and sounds more important than average), there is an endless river of examples in non-self-published sources: New York Post, ESPN, Fortune, Skilled Nursing News, Accounting Today, PC World, Travel Weekly, etc., etc.; modern nonfiction books like Arranging Gershwin, Securing the Future of U.S. Air Transportation, and so on; and in academic journals: [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21] (full text of most of these require JSTOR or similar journal archive access). It's not a field-specific shift, but a change in general English usage patterns. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:40, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- Looks like common sense - I don't have a problem with it. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
MOS:POSTNOM limit proposal
This section presently says:
This is very vague, and seems to cause disputes. As with whether to capitalize a preposition in a proper name, we should consider providing an arbitrary cut-off.
Someone did so, with this:
But someone else reverted it, on the simple basis "no consensus". So, let's have the discussion.
- Should we specify a default numerical limit? (clarified: limit to the number of post-nominal acronyms after someone's name in the lead section of their bio)
- If so, what should it be?
- Should we recommend moving all to the body, or permitting up to the limit in the lead? (clarified: all honours would be given in long form and with sources, in the article body, as always; the question means: if there are lots of / too many acronyms to add in the lead, do we allow a few select ones there, or none?)
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:31, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Comments on POSTNOM proposal
- A. Yes; the current wording it's a too-vague recipe for dispute. B. Three is sufficient. C. Permit some in the lead, we'll want significant ones like knighthoods and national-level fellowships, even if there are a lot of honors to cover in detail in the body. But we should limit this for the same reason we limit other "lead junk". See especially MOS:NICKCRUFT and MOS:LEADCLUTTER, plus semi-recent trimming of unnecessary pronunciation markup. Since all honours would be covered in the body, redundant ones (lower knighthoods, for example) should not be listed in the lead, just the highest grade/class.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:31, 28 June 2018 (UTC); revised: 13:07, 29 June 2018 (UTC) - A. Would be clearer to do so. B. The fewer the better, to avoid distracting clutter. C. Retain existing guideline: omit all from the lead if too many. DrKay (talk) 16:24, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- I was the one who reverted, but I'm very busy at the moment. A. Yes but make it clear that this is flexible so that rule sticklers don't start edit wars against local consensus. B. Post-nominal letters aren't clutter; not least because they establish notability for academics and military figures who are most likely to have multiple post-noms. I'd say, a limit of four if 100% and between 6-8 if 85%: some post-noms are longer than others (eg two letters VC vs seven FRHistS). C. All post-noms should be explained and cited in the main text, but not all of those in the main text need to be in the introduction. Post-nominal letters need citations as will any other honour in a BLP. If they aren't cited or explained they should be removed completely.
- Other notes. "Significant" is very difficult and often personal: if a national level honour comes with post-nominal letters that should make the post-noms notable enough. At the moment MOS allows post-noms if issued "by a country or widely recognizable organization with which the subject has been closely associated" but not academic degrees. Its easy to expand the ban on degrees to exclude professional qualifications as well (eg, MRCGP or MRICS). All other state honours (from MBE's through to GBE's) and national level learned society post-noms should be included, unless the total number is too great and so none should then be included. The specificity of country level fellowships would stop lesser learned societies/academies being added: for example, the Society of Antiquaries of London is the national learned society for archaeology and related subjects in the UK, but the Society of Antiquaries of Newcastle is a localised organisation and much less prestigious: such a distinction might need personal knowledge, or at least someone who is going to look them up before removing them both. There are also other post-noms than awards such as for religious societies, things such as MP, and those denoting military "allegiance" (eg officers of the Royal Navu having RN after theier names, which would not be necessary if the opening sentence was "Captain John Smith, GC (1911-1976) was a decorated Royal Navy officer"). An example, Archibald Montgomery-Massingberd; he has two top knighthoods, one lesser one, and a royal appointment in his post-noms: which post-noms would be chopped with a lower limit? There is also the issue that knighthoods/damehoods (except for Knight Bachelor) are intrinsic linked to their post-nominal letters, they come as a pair: it would be wrong to change "Sir Steven Jones KBE CB DSO DL FREng (born 1953)" to "Sir Steven Jones (born 1953)". Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 22:18, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- I have some bullet-point responses to some of this, in the extended discussion section below. The important bits are: "usually" already provides flexibility, without making it so wishy-washy as to inspire editwarring; and, this is only about acronyms in the lead sentence, not what is sourced in the body, thus has no effect on notability questions. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:37, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- Question one: yes. Question two: four at maximum. Three: up to the limit in the lead—honours systems have orders and grades: the highest three or so only. I'll expand my statement, if I may. First, when I mention post-nominal letters, of course, I mean the honours systems of the Commonwealth nations (and former Commonwealth nations). Second, all post-nominal letters should be explained, of course, in the article: for example, if, say, The Duke of Wellington is a Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Military Order of the Bath (which he was), such a thing should be noted and explained in the body of the article, rather than in the introduction (which, I might add, it isn't).Tertius, using Sir Winston Churchill's page as an example, I have no objections whatsoever to putting all the post-noms into an infobox, so long as each is explained in the accompanying article, in lieu of a limit here. (Think of it this way, as a ranked voting system: my first vote is the above, the second, removal of all post-noms from the lead sentence, putting them all into infoboxes, and explaining each and every last one in the body of the biography.) One last thing: foreign honours don't count. Put them in an "Honours and awards" section. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 01:51, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- I take this to mean you're only considering the particulars of the British system at the moment, not that you think that, e.g., German post-noms shouldn't appear on the articles of German subjects. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:07, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- And you'd be correct: indeed, I was only considering the British honours system. Sorry, SMcCandlish, my ability to sound lucid degrades significantly at night. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 21:12, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- My vote. A. No so rule sticklers cannot start edit wars against local consensus. B. Post-nominal letters are not clutter; they establish notability for academics and military figures who are most likely to have multiple post-noms. The most that anyone has had is ten; the most that any non-royal has amassed is eight. Therefore, there aren't enough to produce clutter. Either they should all be present, or none at all. There is no basis for deciding to skip some. Awards are a different matter; I only mention them in the lead of they are part of the subject's claim to notability (like a Nobel Prize). C. All post-noms must be cited and referenced in the main text, but none need to be in the lead. Post-nominal letters need references just like any honour. If they aren't properly cited they should be removed completely. Uncited text can be removed. There is no need to explain what a honour is, how it is conferred etc. This is all explained in the honour's own article. NB: We are not currently putting post-nominals in the infoboxes; see Edmund Herring for example. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:44, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7: Please see "Responding to Gaia Octavia Agrippa's detailed !vote" below; you are raising some of the same off-topic ideas (e.g. that this has any effect on notability when it cannot). You seem to be mistaking this for whether honours that provide postnominal letters can be included in the articles; it's about the actual letters (acronyms) appearing in series after the name in the lead. MoS has nothing to do with whether sourced facts can be included in the article body. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:36, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- I never said that what we say in an article affects the notability of the subject. All I am saying is that the first sentence of the lead is an assertion of why a subject is notable. Post-nominal letters, other than those denoting academic degrees, should be included in the lead section. Nor am I disputing whether honours that provide post-nominal letters can be included in the articles; but, for example, Edmund Herring's article says that he "became a King's Counsel on 25 February 1936"; that this gave him a post-nominal may not be apparent to the reader. Your proposal merely talks about limiting the number of post-nominals, and my vote would be to limit it to ten. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:13, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying. To address some of this, for later arrivals who may read these comments: The only time an "assertion of notability" applies to bios is WP:CSD#A7 (it's actually an "indicat[ion] why [the] subject is important or significant", which is actually a lower standard, though people often use the shorthand "assertion of notability"). It does not have to be in the lead sentence, and can be anywhere in the article. Since acronyms after the name in the lead should be in the body in long form with citations, the whole matter is unrelated to this proposal. As for the King's Counsel case, a way to resolve that, if the subject had a large pile-up of honours and we didn't want all 20 of them as acronyms in the lead, and we wanted to indicate that it includes post-nominal letters (which is dubious - the article is about Herring, not British honours and forms of address), would be "became a King's Counsel (KC) on ...". :-) Easy-peasy. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:24, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- I never said that what we say in an article affects the notability of the subject. All I am saying is that the first sentence of the lead is an assertion of why a subject is notable. Post-nominal letters, other than those denoting academic degrees, should be included in the lead section. Nor am I disputing whether honours that provide post-nominal letters can be included in the articles; but, for example, Edmund Herring's article says that he "became a King's Counsel on 25 February 1936"; that this gave him a post-nominal may not be apparent to the reader. Your proposal merely talks about limiting the number of post-nominals, and my vote would be to limit it to ten. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:13, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7: Please see "Responding to Gaia Octavia Agrippa's detailed !vote" below; you are raising some of the same off-topic ideas (e.g. that this has any effect on notability when it cannot). You seem to be mistaking this for whether honours that provide postnominal letters can be included in the articles; it's about the actual letters (acronyms) appearing in series after the name in the lead. MoS has nothing to do with whether sourced facts can be included in the article body. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:36, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- Question one: no. Question two: N/A. Question three: All explained in main text, not all need be in the lead. This is unnecessary instruction creep. The present text is more than adequate and there is no need for some arbitrary limit that we come up with here. As Hawkeye7 points out above, there are not very many people where this will be a serious issue anyway, and local consensus is more than enough to decide what to do in those cases. Additionally, I agree with Hawkeye7 above - this proposal is really the worst of both worlds. Either all postnominals should be listed, or none should - there is no basis for us to arbitrarily decide to omit some (to be clear - if the local consensus indicates that the postnominals are too excessive and are cluttering the lead, they should all be removed, not just some). Frickeg (talk) 22:45, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Frickeg: As with several of the above comments, you're mis-reading the proposal. Your "no" on questions 1 and 2 is incompatible with your answer to question 3. It's not possible for them to not all be in the lead if you deny that there should be a limit on how many are in the lead and won't set a cut-off. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:08, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, I see - I thought the third point was about requiring explanation for postnoms in the lead (i.e. "John Smith CBE" and then naming when the honour was received later in the lead). If I am now understanding correctly, then question three would also be N/A since I am opposed to the initial premise. Frickeg (talk) 09:14, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, recommend limiting to 3 or 4, and main article body should reference and discuss them in more detail. The rule should be a "recommendation" or "best practice" and not a hard-and-fast requirement. Renata (talk) 00:00, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
- All guidelines are recommendations of best practice, not hard-and-fast requirements (even many policies are not the latter). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:25, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
- A - We dont need a limit, if the individual has any number of official post-noms then they should be presented per reliable sources. MilborneOne (talk) 15:05, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
- @MilborneOne: Really? You think it would be okay, for some highly "postnommed" royal, to have a lead that started "Corky II of Elbonia, ABC, DEFG, HI, JKL, MNOPQ, RST, UV, WXYZ, AB, CDEF, GHI, JKL, MNOP, QRS, TUV, WX, YZ, AB, CDE, FGH, JKLM, OPQ, RS, TUVW, XYZ, is the 37th king of Elbonia, and ...."? Even though there'd be a section in the body already covering all this stuff in substantive detail (if it's even all encyclopedically relevant)? Noswall59, same questions to you. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:08, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
- User:SMcCandlish. You're not addressing my concern: any preconceived numerical limit is arbitrary, which is problematic for reasons I outlined below. Limiting postnoms to only state honours from the recipient's state and high-level fellowships is a far more sensible solution. Perhaps another one is to say that monarchs should not have postnoms because they are automatically head of all state honours so it is redundant. That does away with your example. And if you can find someone with 25 postnoms under my criteria, I'll be ready to address more than this bizarre hypothetical (the current guidelines already say that when postnoms get rediculously long, they probably need moving so I'm not sure what your hypothetical demonstrates towards your point anyway). BTW, Mountbatten, who was probably the most decorated British subject of his generation, has 9 postnoms. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 09:07, 3 July 2018 (UTC).
- Thanks Noswall59 - I think that would be my reply as well, we appear to be trying to resolve a problem that doesnt really exist. MilborneOne (talk) 13:17, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
- User:SMcCandlish. You're not addressing my concern: any preconceived numerical limit is arbitrary, which is problematic for reasons I outlined below. Limiting postnoms to only state honours from the recipient's state and high-level fellowships is a far more sensible solution. Perhaps another one is to say that monarchs should not have postnoms because they are automatically head of all state honours so it is redundant. That does away with your example. And if you can find someone with 25 postnoms under my criteria, I'll be ready to address more than this bizarre hypothetical (the current guidelines already say that when postnoms get rediculously long, they probably need moving so I'm not sure what your hypothetical demonstrates towards your point anyway). BTW, Mountbatten, who was probably the most decorated British subject of his generation, has 9 postnoms. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 09:07, 3 July 2018 (UTC).
- @MilborneOne: Really? You think it would be okay, for some highly "postnommed" royal, to have a lead that started "Corky II of Elbonia, ABC, DEFG, HI, JKL, MNOPQ, RST, UV, WXYZ, AB, CDEF, GHI, JKL, MNOP, QRS, TUV, WX, YZ, AB, CDE, FGH, JKLM, OPQ, RS, TUVW, XYZ, is the 37th king of Elbonia, and ...."? Even though there'd be a section in the body already covering all this stuff in substantive detail (if it's even all encyclopedically relevant)? Noswall59, same questions to you. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:08, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
- A. no; B. N/A; C. (see what follows). My reason for opposing here is that restricting the number of post-nominals to a "default numerical limit" is arbitrary. I am in favour of retaining post-noms only for (a) state honours, and (b) fellowships of major, national or international learned or professional societies. There may be a few other occasions (e.g. privy councillors in the UK), but those are the big two which come to mind. This would rule out all academic degrees and memberships of professional organisations along with any other miscellany, leaving only what indicates notability. It would be rare for people to have more than 4 state honours and fellowships anyway, but on the occasion that it does occur, it seems odd to fix the number.
- The purpose of the lead is to summarise the key facts of the person in question, and major honours need to be mentioned. The post-noms provide a succinct way to do that. This has the added benefit of highlighting the subject's claim to notability; as MOS:LEAD states, the lead should "explain why the topic is notable... usually established in the first few sentences". Below, someone said "Post-nom letters in the lead do nothing to establish notability; only reliable sources do that". That are correct, but the editor is confusing the issue of establishing and indicating the subject's claim to notability; RSs do the former, the lead does the latter. Without their significant honours (a key criterion for indicating notability at WP:BIO), outlining a subject's notability cannot be achieved without cluttering the lead with long names of the awards they've received.
- Finally, on a more practical note, it doesn't really seem intrusive to have post-noms in the lead. A reader will see (a) the emboldened full name; (b) the blue-linked honours; and (c) the dates of birth and death in parentheses followed by (d) the key description of the person. There's nothing difficult about that, and the nature of the wikimarkup actually makes it easy to scan to the relevant part of the opening sentence. Even Lord Mountbatten's lead, full of honours and replete with his lengthy name, is easy enough to scan. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 15:17, 2 July 2018 (UTC).
- Most style/layout matters are arbitrary at some level. Implicit in the fact that the lead is a tightly compressed summary is the fact that things will be elided. If someone has a whole boat-load of state honours and major fellowships, shotgunning a dozen acronyms at our readers is not the way to convey that. I agree with you that we should limit post-nom abbreviations in the lead to such major honours, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also limit the total number of them. It's very similar to the limiting the profusion of boldfaced alternative names in the lead. E.g., many plants with medicinal and other human uses have dozens of common (vernacular) names in English alone, and we do not include all of them in the lead. The average famous pop singer or movie star is notable for their connection to many notable works, but we only list a few in the lead. Just enough to ensure readers know they are at the right notable, and get a sense, not a totally complete picture, of why the subject of the article is notable and what they're "about". The complete picture is provided by the a article body. And for the umpteenth time: having a bunch of acronyms in the lead has no connection to establishing notability at all. The sources in the article body where the honours are discussed in detail, not as just cryptic letter jumbles, are what establish notability. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:41, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I do see your rationale for wanting to do something about post-noms; they can be intrusive and appear to be clutter in some instances/to some readers. But nothing you've said here convinces me that your proposal – to impose a numerical limit on the number of post-nums – is a good thing to do. It seems arbitrary; if someone receives the KG, GCB, GCVO, GCMG and the OM, which are we to drop? And why should it be that the substantial honours this person has received are not mentioned in the summary of their career? (Indeed, your suggestion implies that the more remarkable one's awards are, the less remarked upon they will be in the lead at least.) More practical responses to this problem, as I have outlined, include limiting the types of honours and fellowships which are suitable for inclusion, and also limiting some exceptional cases, such as royalty and monarchs, who receive very large numbers of honours or who are head of their nation's honours system, etc. You mention this issue of notability, and I agree that some people are misconstruing things, but I stand by the notion that the lead should explain and summarise the reasons for a person's notability; that is not the same things as establishing notability, which can only be done in the body using RS. To properly summarise a person's claim to notability for the reader, it is usually helpful to briefly outline the major awards they have received, and post-noms provide a good and succinct way to do that. This is why I believe my suggestion to limit postnoms by their type and importance (and thus not set an arbitrary number) is more inline with Wikipedia's core policies, because it is rooted in verified notability and the lead's role in explaining and summarising a subject's claims to notability (but, of course, the lead does not establish that notability). I can see that we probably won't agree on this, but hopefully you can at least understand my angle here. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 19:35, 4 July 2018 (UTC).
- @Noswall59: Could you draft a cogent alternative proposal? I twiddled with drafting one and wasn't able to put it into usable language, and that was even when just focusing on UK honours; we'd have to cover way more than that (German, Soviet, etc. – even the US has some fellowships that are used this way). It probably requires someone who knows the proper terminology very well and the relationships and relative level of different types of honours as well as different classes of within them. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:58, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I do see your rationale for wanting to do something about post-noms; they can be intrusive and appear to be clutter in some instances/to some readers. But nothing you've said here convinces me that your proposal – to impose a numerical limit on the number of post-nums – is a good thing to do. It seems arbitrary; if someone receives the KG, GCB, GCVO, GCMG and the OM, which are we to drop? And why should it be that the substantial honours this person has received are not mentioned in the summary of their career? (Indeed, your suggestion implies that the more remarkable one's awards are, the less remarked upon they will be in the lead at least.) More practical responses to this problem, as I have outlined, include limiting the types of honours and fellowships which are suitable for inclusion, and also limiting some exceptional cases, such as royalty and monarchs, who receive very large numbers of honours or who are head of their nation's honours system, etc. You mention this issue of notability, and I agree that some people are misconstruing things, but I stand by the notion that the lead should explain and summarise the reasons for a person's notability; that is not the same things as establishing notability, which can only be done in the body using RS. To properly summarise a person's claim to notability for the reader, it is usually helpful to briefly outline the major awards they have received, and post-noms provide a good and succinct way to do that. This is why I believe my suggestion to limit postnoms by their type and importance (and thus not set an arbitrary number) is more inline with Wikipedia's core policies, because it is rooted in verified notability and the lead's role in explaining and summarising a subject's claims to notability (but, of course, the lead does not establish that notability). I can see that we probably won't agree on this, but hopefully you can at least understand my angle here. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 19:35, 4 July 2018 (UTC).
- Most style/layout matters are arbitrary at some level. Implicit in the fact that the lead is a tightly compressed summary is the fact that things will be elided. If someone has a whole boat-load of state honours and major fellowships, shotgunning a dozen acronyms at our readers is not the way to convey that. I agree with you that we should limit post-nom abbreviations in the lead to such major honours, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also limit the total number of them. It's very similar to the limiting the profusion of boldfaced alternative names in the lead. E.g., many plants with medicinal and other human uses have dozens of common (vernacular) names in English alone, and we do not include all of them in the lead. The average famous pop singer or movie star is notable for their connection to many notable works, but we only list a few in the lead. Just enough to ensure readers know they are at the right notable, and get a sense, not a totally complete picture, of why the subject of the article is notable and what they're "about". The complete picture is provided by the a article body. And for the umpteenth time: having a bunch of acronyms in the lead has no connection to establishing notability at all. The sources in the article body where the honours are discussed in detail, not as just cryptic letter jumbles, are what establish notability. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:41, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Extended discussion of POSTNOM proposal
This is unrelated to whether we should have an explicit numeric limit, but see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bueller 007 for a recent case of a sockpuppet adding inappropriate postnominals. I think it could help to change the current wording in a different way: where it says "seldom uses their post-nominal letters (for instance because they hold a much "higher" style, like Charles, Prince of Wales)", one might also add something about the postnominals consisting only of foreign honors. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:39, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, honors foreign to the subject. The "Prince Charles" stuff is why the "..." is in the text above, and it needs probably to be moved out to a separate note. What you suggest could be another ones. The main instruction should be kept lean. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:53, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Poor Charles. "Once he shone on his own / now he sits home alone / and waits for the phone / to ring." EEng 02:36, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Foreign post-noms should be excluded because the subject would rarely use them. DrKay (talk) 16:24, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Are we sure? If I, as a visiting American, incidentally saved the life of a British royal then received the George Cross, I'd be inclined to not hide the fact. >;-) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:15, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Responding to Gaia Octavia Agrippa's detailed !vote:
- "Usually" being in there is already enough flexibility. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS can't just invalidate site-wide guidelines for the heck of it. Rather, WP:IAR might be invoked at an article for a very solid, case-specific reason (and that even works against most policies, except the legal ones); it wouldn't matter what wording the guideline had in such a case. We get editwars, rather, when our guidelines are wishy-washy and non-committal.
- Post-nom letters in the lead do nothing to establish notability; only reliable sources do that. As you agree, the honors those letters refer to also go, in long form and with sources, in the article body somewhere. So, this proposal has no connection to any notability issue; its about the abbreviations, not the underlying information.
- A rule based on counting up all the letters wouldn't be practical.
- "Significant" is a word MoS and other guidelines and policies use frequently. It's a cue that we're leaving that part up to local consensus on the talk page, and it's ultimately a matter of WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE policy application. It won't be any more problematic here than anywhere else.
- Ah, yes: professional certifications are routinely removed as the same claptrap as academic degrees, but this guideline should probably mention them specifically or someone's apt to wikilawyer about it. The RN point is point is very, and we don't seem to be covering it, but it's clearly something we'd replace with clearer wording in most cases, as you suggest. Another similar one is doing stuff like "Sen. Jimmy McTavish D-MO", a style which only means anything to Americans. But, that's a separate clarification; it's not what this proposal is about.
- Sure, some distinctions may need knowledge/research to know if they qualify; that's true about just about anything and any rule. We wouldn't make the guideline wording longer to go into that idea.
- "he has two top knighthoods, one lesser one, and a royal appointment in his post-noms: which post-noms would be chopped?" – As initials after the name, we would show the senior knighthoods at least, I would think; if he had a bunch more, and trimming was necessary, there's already another sentence in the guideline about trimming out lower honors and just covering them in the article body if important enough to include at all. About the DL for Deputy Lieutenant, that seems to wander in the same direction as RN for Royal Navy or USA for United States Army, and occupational certifications and memberships like MRICS, CISSP, and RN for registered nurse – it's occupational. Maybe there are hairs to split, like whether some are more honorary that others, and more like a fellowship than a position or a qualification.
- Your last point isn't borne out by an even cursory examination of real-world writing. E.g., Google for "Sir John Gielgud", and you'll find it's downright difficult to find the post-nom being used. Formal address and how to write about someone are not the same thing.
I hope you'll revise your !vote a bit. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:36, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Looks like another WP:CREEP. We don't need or want this sort of thing in the MOS. There are people who do nothing but go around extending the MOS (ie who are WP:NOTHERE), and all they give us is more reason to junk the MOS entirely. It's true that some people rarely use their post-nominals. It's also true that some use them all the time. People see the post-nominals in inscriptions, documents etc, and it is a reason to look up the person on the Wikipedia. To be useful, the lists of post-nominals need to be comprehensive and correct. Arbitrarily limiting them serves no useful purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawkeye7 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7: This isn't about limiting coverage of the honors in the article, only about limiting the chain of post-nominal abbreviations given immediately after the name in the lead sentence, per MOS:LEADCLUTTER. It doesn't seem you've looked at the proposal carefully. (Some commenters are also adding views about infobox treatment as well, though that isn't encompassed in the proposal).
PS: I have yet to ever find a NOTHERE WP:SPA "who do[es] nothing but go around extending the MOS". I think we would have detected such by now and dealt with it. There was an editor who spent an inordinate amount of time trying to change MoS to suit nationalistic prejudices, who got T-banned, but even that editor was productive in other areas; and there has been an editor who was overtly focused on WP:RM (more of a WP:AT than MoS matter), who also got T-banned from it. That seems to be the extent of the problem, already resolved. All the regulars at the MoS pages are actively involved in mainspace editing, and rarely make substantive (versus copyediting) changes to the guidelines. So it's rather odd that you'd suggest something like a conspiracy, with no evidence. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:55, 29 June 2018 (UTC)- I was not suggesting any conspiracy. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:48, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- So who are the "people who do nothing but go around extending the MOS (ie who are WP:NOTHERE), and all they give us is more reason to junk the MOS entirely"? — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:39, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- I was not suggesting any conspiracy. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:48, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
From the left field, prenominals and postnominals for living people in particular should be as they would be formally addressed in state correspondence of the country of which they are a citizen (however long this is) - be this in the infobox or in the lead. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 06:33, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
Alternative proposal
The easiest way of limiting post-noms is to restrict which ones can be included rather than an arbitrary numerical limit. So, the initial paragraph needs changing. This discussion has stalled because there is a clear split between "there needs to be a low maximum number" and "any limit would be arbitrary". Academic degrees are already banned, so expanding this to professional qualifications and honours below national level would instantly shrink the number of post-noms. I'd say this was an easy way to compromise. I'd also suggesting including examples of what would vs would not be acceptable would help clarify things: something like "Jane Smith GM MP BSc RGN vs Jane Smith GM MP", but I don't know how to word that.
Current wording of first paragraph:
Proposed new wording of first paragraph:
Current wording of third paragraph:
Proposed new wording of third paragraph:
I'm putting this in a new section so its easier to read. Thanks, Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 20:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Religious titles
Not sure if this is the right place, but I will tell my story. I have recently modified a few school articles where editors (I am guessing respectful students) have entered the names of school staff (e.g. the principal) with the title Mr in front. I have removed various instances of Mr, Ms, Mrs, and Miss. Today I encountered a Catholic School where early principals were nuns. They had their names in the article preceded by "Sr", short for Sister. For example, see Mount Lilydale Mercy College#Principal History. Do we leave the "Sr" titles? HiLo48 (talk) 03:47, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Makes me wonder if the "Mr" in this is really meant to be "Mister" or perhaps "Monsignor". Anyway, I could see it being kept in cases of nuns using no surname ("Sr. Mary Katharine"), for clarity, but it's completely unnecessary at that article, and it's not exempt from the guideline. The one incomplete-name case, "Mr Goodfello", needs to be fixed to have the forename. The problem with this sort of thing is that all sorts of religious titles exist (Deacon Jimmy McDougal, Rev. Buster St. James, Rt Rev Joseph Middleton, etc., and that's just scratching the "familiar to Brits and Yanks" surface). Roman Catholicism isn't in its own "our titles are special" reality tunnel. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:09, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- It can be useful to keep "Sr." in cases where it clarifies gender issues, as in "Sr. Michael" or "Sr. Gabriel"; nuns often take a quite masculine-sounding name. "Mr." should be changed to "Msgr." or "Mgr." when referring to a monsignor. Other than that, I applaud the removal of Mr, Ms, Mrs, and Miss. Chris the speller yack 16:14, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- I find this comment most interesting. Why is it that gender, of all things, is so important to clarify? If someone's name was Carroll Smith, we wouldn't write "Carroll Smith (female)" to clarify that. EEng 16:28, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I had a similar reaction. We do not write things like "Chris [male] Simmons" or "Pat Rodriguez (a woman)". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:32, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- I find this comment most interesting. Why is it that gender, of all things, is so important to clarify? If someone's name was Carroll Smith, we wouldn't write "Carroll Smith (female)" to clarify that. EEng 16:28, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- "Sr." is short for Señor. So, there's no clarification. If anything, it's more confusing. The full word should be used. DrKay (talk) 16:19, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Or maybe Strontium. Nuns do get these weird names, you know. EEng 16:31, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- LOL. The canonical fix for this, if an abbreviation is wanted, would be Sr. – or Sr. (with link) at first occurrence. Almost every short abbreviation is ambiguous. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:32, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- Or maybe Strontium. Nuns do get these weird names, you know. EEng 16:31, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- It can be useful to keep "Sr." in cases where it clarifies gender issues, as in "Sr. Michael" or "Sr. Gabriel"; nuns often take a quite masculine-sounding name. "Mr." should be changed to "Msgr." or "Mgr." when referring to a monsignor. Other than that, I applaud the removal of Mr, Ms, Mrs, and Miss. Chris the speller yack 16:14, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- I attended a speech by Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, and he recounted filling in an online form, and the drop-down menu for styles offered "Mr" and "Dr" but not "His Royal Highness". I believe the web site has since been corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:58, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
- Imagine how many form submissions pick that option! — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:27, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
Names confused with common words and well-known single names
The manual currently states: Some names look like common words that are usually capitalized, or like well-known historical figures. Subsequent mentions of these individuals should use their given names or full names. Examples include: I, Lord, Christ, Moses, Islam, and Mohammed (the last with various spellings).
To what extent does this actually apply? I notice that later references throughout the articles on actor Jack Lord and athlete Edwin Moses repeatedly refer to them as "Lord" and "Moses", with no significant chance of them being confused with the similarly named religious figures. Hence, this rule requiring given names or full names to be used on subsequent mention may not be needed, or at least could be eased. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:47, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
Proposed change to wording in context section
The current wording of the context section currently reads:
...or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable
The problem is with the phrase "when the person became notable" and it was identified by RexxS as part of a broader discussion over the application of the guideline. The example he presented was George Washington. Before becoming the first American president, for which the subject is clearly most notable, he became notable as a British commander in the French and Indian War. A literal interpretation of that phrase could justify using British instead of American for the country of citizenship used in the introduction part of the lead, which in my opinion would go completely against the spirit of the guideline.
The proposed suggestion would be to change "when the person became notable" for "when the person was most notable". Alternative wordings or comments would be welcomed. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 19:06, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- I'll add my support to Crystallizedcarbon's suggestion. Although George Washington is an extreme example, there will certainly be many more people who are notable for more than one event, and in the lead we should be concentrating on delivering to the reader the most relevant facts as an introduction. There is a danger in over-reliance on the guidance here, and IAR is always available as a remedy, of course. However, where it is clear that wording can be improved, it makes sense to do so. --RexxS (talk) 19:16, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, this makes good sense. Closing off wikilawyering and misinterpretation loopholes is good practice. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- Caution, this is an open invitation to another round of wikilawyering for some pages. Consider Charlie Chaplin. He was, and remained, a British citizen. He became notable in England, then became a US resident where he was more notable, before moving to Switzerland where he remained notable. The whole English/British/US business has been discussed ad nauseum! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:24, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- I personally don't think that the small change proposed could or should affect that particular BLP, as the issue there seems to be more related to whether country of residence or country of citizenship should be used (both possibilities are included in the guideline) and issues related to WP:UKNATIONALS since England is also a country. The proposed change relates only to time, and clarifies that the preference should be given to the most notable period over an the period the BLP first became notable. Which I think is the intended meaning of the guideline. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 22:49, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- Possibly, assuming good will on all parts (found under flying pigs). There has been a long running argument whether the lead should be "was an English comic actor, filmmaker, and composer" as it is at present, or should describe him as American. All I'm saying is be careful, half an acre of ink could depend upon such "small" changes. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 23:05, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- If it comes down to it, we could add a footnote that citizenship trumps residency, and use Chaplin as an example. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:49, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- Driving into work this morning I was thinking about this. There are a number of similar thespians: Dame Julie Andrews or Sir Anthony Hopkins for example. Both have had their widest public notability thanks to Hollywood, yet retain their roots back in "the old country". The Washington case on the other hand is a little different. He only ever commanded American forces and only ever lived in America. At first it was British North America, then of course an independent USA. Of course he probably thought of himself as a Virginian, but lets not start that hare running! So if he rose to notability as a (British) American and continued as an (US) American, where's the problem? The point that I'm trying to make is that there is no problem with the original wording in any of these four cases: Chaplin, Andrews, Hopkins and Washington but the proposed changes open the way for a lot of disputation for some of them. Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:32, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- Chaplin is a case where some judicious rewriting could resolve the problem. What country he came from is actually irrelevant to his notability. So why mention it at all? Just say: “Charlie Chaplin was a silent film actor.” If we need to mention nationality at all, I would focus on the films... “Charlie Chaplin was an actor in American silent films.” Blueboar (talk) 10:55, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Martin of Sheffield: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Context uses the country of citizenship as a criteria, which was British until America became independent and his citizenship became American. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 15:47, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- I still think you are trying to impose a modern interpretation onto a historical situation. Washington may have been a British subject but I'm not convinced about citizenship. The American colonies were to varying extents self governing under charters from the crown, much as the Channel Isles or the Isle of Mann are today. As you go further back you'll find yourself deeper in the mire; was Boudica Roman, English or Iceni for example? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:06, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- Even if it is not 100% clear in this case, I think the example is still valid, I think that the spirit of the guideline is that the country of citizenship when the person was most notable could be used, instead of being limited to the first chronological time that the person became notable even if it was for a less relevant reason. The proposed change would clarify that. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 11:26, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- I still think you are trying to impose a modern interpretation onto a historical situation. Washington may have been a British subject but I'm not convinced about citizenship. The American colonies were to varying extents self governing under charters from the crown, much as the Channel Isles or the Isle of Mann are today. As you go further back you'll find yourself deeper in the mire; was Boudica Roman, English or Iceni for example? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:06, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Martin of Sheffield: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Context uses the country of citizenship as a criteria, which was British until America became independent and his citizenship became American. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 15:47, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- Chaplin is a case where some judicious rewriting could resolve the problem. What country he came from is actually irrelevant to his notability. So why mention it at all? Just say: “Charlie Chaplin was a silent film actor.” If we need to mention nationality at all, I would focus on the films... “Charlie Chaplin was an actor in American silent films.” Blueboar (talk) 10:55, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- Driving into work this morning I was thinking about this. There are a number of similar thespians: Dame Julie Andrews or Sir Anthony Hopkins for example. Both have had their widest public notability thanks to Hollywood, yet retain their roots back in "the old country". The Washington case on the other hand is a little different. He only ever commanded American forces and only ever lived in America. At first it was British North America, then of course an independent USA. Of course he probably thought of himself as a Virginian, but lets not start that hare running! So if he rose to notability as a (British) American and continued as an (US) American, where's the problem? The point that I'm trying to make is that there is no problem with the original wording in any of these four cases: Chaplin, Andrews, Hopkins and Washington but the proposed changes open the way for a lot of disputation for some of them. Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:32, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- If it comes down to it, we could add a footnote that citizenship trumps residency, and use Chaplin as an example. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:49, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- Possibly, assuming good will on all parts (found under flying pigs). There has been a long running argument whether the lead should be "was an English comic actor, filmmaker, and composer" as it is at present, or should describe him as American. All I'm saying is be careful, half an acre of ink could depend upon such "small" changes. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 23:05, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
- I personally don't think that the small change proposed could or should affect that particular BLP, as the issue there seems to be more related to whether country of residence or country of citizenship should be used (both possibilities are included in the guideline) and issues related to WP:UKNATIONALS since England is also a country. The proposed change relates only to time, and clarifies that the preference should be given to the most notable period over an the period the BLP first became notable. Which I think is the intended meaning of the guideline. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 22:49, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
RfC on use of Spanish regional identity in biography leads
Based on your interpretation of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Context should the lead sentence of Spanish biographies provide the person's legal citizenship, Spanish, or their regional identity (e.g. Catalan, Basque) if there are sources to infer that the person places more importance on their regional identity?
The interpretation of the above policy is causing disputes on numerous articles. A recent Rfc at Talk:Carles Puigdemont dealt with this issue but as it related specifically to that article there is general consensus here that we need a broad Rfc so that we can settle the issue. Please indicate your preference below.--Obi2canibe (talk) 22:36, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Alternative proposed statement (see RfC wording/scope section bellow):
Based on your interpretation of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Context when applied to subjects of biographies that strive for the independence of their region from their current country or those who place more importance on their regional identity, at the place right after the date of birth and "is a" should those articles include the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident or their regional identity (e.g. Catalan, Basque, Bavarian, Alaskan etc.)?
Neither choice would exclude including the regional identity or the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident right after the roles or elsewhere in the lead. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 07:53, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Note: Notifications made to Wikipedia:Village pump (policy), Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spain, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catalan-speaking countries, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basque. Are there any other relevant places? --RexxS (talk) 00:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Comments on the RfC wording/scope
- Comment The wording of this RfC (as written by Obi2canibe) is extremely biased towards the Spanish unionists' pov. Please change the heading to a more neutral: RfC on use of Basque, Catalan or Spanish identity in biography leads (alphabetical order). Legality does not come into it (!) and 'regional' in reference to identity is an attempt to sway the reader. Please re-write in neutral speak. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 03:26, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
A resolved side discussion:
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- Comment Basques and Catalans are not only Spanish, and this is one of the main arguments for this discussion. A different wording would be more neutral and open for discussion. -Theklan (talk) 08:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arcillaroja (talk • contribs)
- This issue does not restrict itself to only two regions. All distinct regions conforming the Spanish state deserve to be treated equally regardless of the independentist sentiment that is currently perceived in the news now. I'd like to remind you that in virtually all spanish regions (and within those regions too) there are political views seeking for a separate national identity and or the creation of independent states. Arcillaroja (talk) 08:21, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Llywelyn2000, I'm sorry that you view the title as biased. The scope of this Rfc is all of Spain and we cannot include all seventeen regions in the title. Catalan and Basque were just examples used to assist editors unfamiliar with the subject.--Obi2canibe (talk) 11:52, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- I think the point being made is that there are also French Catalans and French Basques; they are not all Spanish citizens. --RexxS (talk) 15:54, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, this Rfc is about individuals from Spain, nowhere else.--Obi2canibe (talk) 16:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Why? don't you think that the results would have repercussions on similar articles from other nationalities. What is the criteria for restricting the scope of the possible change or interpretation of the guideline only to people from Spanish regions? --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:46, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- The criterion for restricting the scope of an RfC is "what is the scope of the question posed by the RfC". It's as simple as that. The OP decides and the instruction on trying to change that are at WP:RfC. That's not to say that the results of a limited consensus like the one sought by this RfC can't be used in arguing the case in analogous situations. However WP:CONLIMITED explains what the limits of a particular consensus are. --RexxS (talk) 20:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Obi2canibe: @RexxS: According to Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Suggestions_for_responding: "If you feel an RfC is improperly worded, ask the originator to improve the wording, or add an alternative unbiased statement immediately below the RfC question template"
and WP:CONLIMITED also states that "For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a wikiproject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope." That is exactly the case here, we can not change the guideline or its interpretation only within the scope of the wikiproject Spain.and since no objective reason has been given on why the guideline should be changed only for Spanish regions excluding other regions with the same issues I disagree with the current wording.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 07:48, 12 July 2018 (UTC) - A revised wording to solve that problem and also clarify that both country and regional identity can be included in the lead could be:
- (moved bellow the RfC question)
- The proposed revision makes clear that what we would like to clarify is not whether the regional identity or the country can or should be included in the lead as I think no one is questioning that, but the current wording of the RfC might be misleading as it might be interpreted as prompting to choose between either one of the two options, when is just a matter of format and whether we give more importance to consistency or allow for a special treatment in case of people who do not identify themselves with their current country, It also widens the scope and does not limit it to just Spain according to WP:CONLIMITED. Comments and improvements to the proposed wording would be welcomed. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 22:41, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Please read WP:LISTGAP. Yes I know what WP:RFC says; I pointed you to it. So ask the OP, don't moan at me about the scope. It is what it is. I can see you're having some problems understanding CONLIMITED, so I'll try to explain it to you. It says that Wikiproject Spain can't create a consensus that applies to anything beyond their Wikiproject pages, so they can't create a consensus that applies to Spanish articles (or any others). That should be obvious when you consider that you don't have have to be a member of Wikiproject Spain to edit Spanish articles; and that an article can be within the scope of multiple Wikiprojects, and there would be no means of reconciling different requirements from different Wikiprojects. I hope you're with me so far. Now, this is not Wikiproject Spain; this venue is "Manual of Style (Biographies)". This is where an RfC can establish a consensus for what the Manual of Style should say about a particular set of biographies, or all biographies. So when you say
"That is exactly the case here"
, you are 100% wrong. It is absolutely the case that we can have this debate here and agree on what the guidance should say about Spanish biographies or about all biographies or about any subset of biographies. But Wikiproject Spain can't do that. That's what CONLIMITED tells you and you have it completely back-to-front. Now please stop clutching at straws in an attempt to derail this RfC and please try to focus on the question asked above. --RexxS (talk) 00:20, 12 July 2018 (UTC)- More to the point, a wikiproject can't create a "local consensus" that does apply across articles within their scope, either, because articles are not within the scope of a single wikiproject. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS in mainspace applies at the article level: what is best for this article and its readers (not this category, this cluster or articles grouped by a navbox, this broad topic a wikiproject tries to assert WP:OWNership over, etc.). Local consensus at an article is determined by all editors who care to weigh in, not just by wikiproject participants or editors who feel they should have more control based on how much time they've put in at the page (see WP:OWN again, and WP:VESTED). This is why we have CONLEVEL policy (itself derived from WP:EDITING policy), and why ArbCom has repeatedly struck down the idea that a wikiproject and tell other editors what to do just because an article is claimed with the wikiproject's scope (this came up at WP:ARBINFOBOX and at least two other ArbCom cases). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:43, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- I used a bad example, I agree that the decision here is not taken by the wikiproject, my apologies for that. What I was trying to say is that since we are proposing changes to a guideline or its interpretation, unless there is an objective criteria to justify why Spanish regions should be a special case I see no difference as far as the guideline is concerned between Spanish regions like Catalonia or the other 16 Spanish autonomous communities and other regional divisions like Corsica, Martinique, Quebec, Sicilly, Flander etc. If we don't justify why the proposed changes should apply only within regions of Spain we would be creating an arbitrary rule within a guideline. That does not make any sense to me. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 07:40, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- One of the stated purposes of Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is to
"resolve conflicts"
. As there is an area of conflict sited on Spanish–Basque–Catalan issues, we can record what consensus says our best practices concerning them are by documenting them in MOSBIO. That is an important step in resolving those conflicts, and by definition, not at all arbitrary. There are no current similar on-wiki conflicts that I am presently aware of related to other regional divisions like Corsica, Martinique, Quebec, Sicily, Flanders etc. Therefore per WP:CREEP we don't make guidelines where none are needed. I hope that now makes sense to you. --RexxS (talk) 13:51, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- One of the stated purposes of Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is to
- I used a bad example, I agree that the decision here is not taken by the wikiproject, my apologies for that. What I was trying to say is that since we are proposing changes to a guideline or its interpretation, unless there is an objective criteria to justify why Spanish regions should be a special case I see no difference as far as the guideline is concerned between Spanish regions like Catalonia or the other 16 Spanish autonomous communities and other regional divisions like Corsica, Martinique, Quebec, Sicilly, Flander etc. If we don't justify why the proposed changes should apply only within regions of Spain we would be creating an arbitrary rule within a guideline. That does not make any sense to me. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 07:40, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- More to the point, a wikiproject can't create a "local consensus" that does apply across articles within their scope, either, because articles are not within the scope of a single wikiproject. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS in mainspace applies at the article level: what is best for this article and its readers (not this category, this cluster or articles grouped by a navbox, this broad topic a wikiproject tries to assert WP:OWNership over, etc.). Local consensus at an article is determined by all editors who care to weigh in, not just by wikiproject participants or editors who feel they should have more control based on how much time they've put in at the page (see WP:OWN again, and WP:VESTED). This is why we have CONLEVEL policy (itself derived from WP:EDITING policy), and why ArbCom has repeatedly struck down the idea that a wikiproject and tell other editors what to do just because an article is claimed with the wikiproject's scope (this came up at WP:ARBINFOBOX and at least two other ArbCom cases). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:43, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- Please read WP:LISTGAP. Yes I know what WP:RFC says; I pointed you to it. So ask the OP, don't moan at me about the scope. It is what it is. I can see you're having some problems understanding CONLIMITED, so I'll try to explain it to you. It says that Wikiproject Spain can't create a consensus that applies to anything beyond their Wikiproject pages, so they can't create a consensus that applies to Spanish articles (or any others). That should be obvious when you consider that you don't have have to be a member of Wikiproject Spain to edit Spanish articles; and that an article can be within the scope of multiple Wikiprojects, and there would be no means of reconciling different requirements from different Wikiprojects. I hope you're with me so far. Now, this is not Wikiproject Spain; this venue is "Manual of Style (Biographies)". This is where an RfC can establish a consensus for what the Manual of Style should say about a particular set of biographies, or all biographies. So when you say
- @Obi2canibe: @RexxS: According to Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Suggestions_for_responding: "If you feel an RfC is improperly worded, ask the originator to improve the wording, or add an alternative unbiased statement immediately below the RfC question template"
- The criterion for restricting the scope of an RfC is "what is the scope of the question posed by the RfC". It's as simple as that. The OP decides and the instruction on trying to change that are at WP:RfC. That's not to say that the results of a limited consensus like the one sought by this RfC can't be used in arguing the case in analogous situations. However WP:CONLIMITED explains what the limits of a particular consensus are. --RexxS (talk) 20:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Why? don't you think that the results would have repercussions on similar articles from other nationalities. What is the criteria for restricting the scope of the possible change or interpretation of the guideline only to people from Spanish regions? --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:46, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, this Rfc is about individuals from Spain, nowhere else.--Obi2canibe (talk) 16:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- I think the point being made is that there are also French Catalans and French Basques; they are not all Spanish citizens. --RexxS (talk) 15:54, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Survey
Use Spanish
- Yes if the person has self-declared their identity = "Spanish", and "Spanish" only. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 03:17, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- the title of this option should be changed form Use Spanish to Use the Country (of citizenship, residence or nationality) as the arguments are equally valid for separatists from many other countries and regions of the world. If the guideline is not changed I think that this is the option in line with Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Context. The ethnicity and region as well as the desire for independence could be included elswhere in the lead.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 09:44, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- In cases where the overwhelming majority of sources describe the subject as "Spanish", with extra weight being given to sources that are independent of the dispute. --RexxS (talk) 15:51, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Per RexxS above. Typically places of birth/residence etc should be described as "Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain" or similar. Johnbod (talk) 22:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Yes per Llywelyn2000. Rosa Díez or Pedro Morenés would be two perfect examples.-Theklan (talk) 22:25, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
- Support. The lead sentence cannot get into complex separatist discussions. People expect the nationality to be mentioned. If the person is separatist, that can be mentioned later in the introduction. --NaBUru38 (talk) 02:35, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Use regional identity
- Yes if the person has self-declared their identity = Basque or Catalan by word or action (eg member of a pro-Catalan party). This precident was set in another RfC on Talk:Carles Puigdemont a few days ago. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 03:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Contex allows the use of ethnicity where it is relevant to the subject's notability. When it comes to nationalist politicians, or individuals advocating secession, this is clearly the case. But there may also others who don't advocate secession but have shown that they favour their regional identity over their citizenship and if WP:RS can be provided to verify this we should use the regional identity. In all other cases we should continue to use Spanish. There are all sorts of combinations involving citizenship/ethnicity/country/region that could be used in the lead and if an article-specific consensus is achieved to use one of these combinations it can over-ride any consensus we achieve here.--Obi2canibe (talk) 12:44, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Obi2canibe: The guideline discourages the use of Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality unless as you say it is relevant to the subject of notability, but in case it is relevant it just states that it can be included in the lead and does not imply that it should substitute the country of citizenship which is independent from Ethnicity, religion or sexuality. An example would be Barrak Obama. his Ethnicity as the first African American president is notable and is included elsewhere in the lead, but he is still introduced as an American attorney and politician. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:33, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- The policy discourages it but they don't prohibit it. That is why there are thousands of biographies that deviate from this. Previous discussions have shown that both sides of this dispute can find examples to support their position. Obama's notability is due him being president, not of being an African American president. I'm not aware that he favours his African-American identity over his American identity.--Obi2canibe (talk) 16:55, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- MOS:OPENPARABIO specifies "nationality", not "citizenship". MOS:BIO#Context SAYS
"The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident ..."
It doesn't say Regardless of notability, provide the country of citizenship. That kind of inflexible interpretation to suit one set of views is what is causing most of the misunderstandings here. There is no question of having to "substitute the country of citizenship", because it's not a compulsory element. --RexxS (talk) 20:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Obi2canibe: The guideline discourages the use of Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality unless as you say it is relevant to the subject of notability, but in case it is relevant it just states that it can be included in the lead and does not imply that it should substitute the country of citizenship which is independent from Ethnicity, religion or sexuality. An example would be Barrak Obama. his Ethnicity as the first African American president is notable and is included elsewhere in the lead, but he is still introduced as an American attorney and politician. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:33, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- In cases where the overwhelming majority of sources describe the subject as "Basque", "Catalan", etc. - with extra weight being given to sources that are independent of the dispute. --RexxS (talk) 15:52, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @RexxS: If an overwhelming majority of sources describe a subject as Alaskan/from Alaska/of Alaska should we use Alaskan instead of American to introduce their biography? --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Crystallizedcarbon: The threaded discussion below is for debate, but if you insist on doing it here, okay. If an overwhelming majority of sources describe a subject as Alaskan/from Alaska/of Alaska why shouldn't we use Alaskan instead of American to introduce their biography? It's natural, more precise, and follows the sources. Would you have the same concerns with "Hawaiian"? --RexxS (talk) 20:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Hawaiian would be exactly the same case. My point is that I think it does not follow our current guideline and what we do for almost all regional leaders like Alaskan governor Bill Walker or Asturian President Javier Fernández Fernández which are introduced as American and Spanish. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 20:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Which then seems to me that the guideline is providing poor advice. If it is resulting in less information and not favouring the sources, then it's clearly time to change it. --RexxS (talk) 20:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Javier Fernández Fernández doesn't claim to be Asturian and not Spanish and doesn't represent a movement asking for the independence of Asturias. As a matter of fact, he is member of a party claming the unity of Spain. -Theklan (talk) 22:28, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
- Which then seems to me that the guideline is providing poor advice. If it is resulting in less information and not favouring the sources, then it's clearly time to change it. --RexxS (talk) 20:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Hawaiian would be exactly the same case. My point is that I think it does not follow our current guideline and what we do for almost all regional leaders like Alaskan governor Bill Walker or Asturian President Javier Fernández Fernández which are introduced as American and Spanish. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 20:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Crystallizedcarbon: The threaded discussion below is for debate, but if you insist on doing it here, okay. If an overwhelming majority of sources describe a subject as Alaskan/from Alaska/of Alaska why shouldn't we use Alaskan instead of American to introduce their biography? It's natural, more precise, and follows the sources. Would you have the same concerns with "Hawaiian"? --RexxS (talk) 20:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @RexxS: If an overwhelming majority of sources describe a subject as Alaskan/from Alaska/of Alaska should we use Alaskan instead of American to introduce their biography? --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Where there is good evidence of self-identifying as the regional identity, and outside sources use it. Per RexxS above. Typically places of birth/residence etc should be described as "Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain" or similar. Johnbod (talk) 22:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Use identity (the word regional is misleading). Per Llywelyn2000. Two good examples would be Arnaldo Otegi and Joseba Sarrionandia -Theklan (talk) 22:28, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Use a compromise where possible
- RexxS (talk) 23:39, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
- Arcillaroja (talk) 08:32, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- If the person has not made a self decleration of identity, then yes; also when there is doubt, or there are mixed signals (as mentioned by Johnbod and Theklan). Catalan poets, linguists, singers etc as well as Catalan politicians should be identified as Catalan only (id through their action / work).Llywelyn2000 (talk) 03:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Yes. This would be consistent with our treatment of other complex situations, e.g. in the UK. The first "Threaded discussion" section post indicates why; the first example provided is extremist and reader-confusing, while the second is clear and sensible, while also not hiding the subject's Basqueness. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:51, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- When in doubt, or there are mixed signals - eg a Catalan Spanish diplomat. Especially for places of birth/residence etc, which should be described as "Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain" or similar. Johnbod (talk) 22:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Should use both Spanish and the region, Spanish Baasque, Spanish Catalan, where sources allow, including for notable independence-seeking politicians. Not choosing this option where sources is breaking our neutrality policy. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 18:07, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- Only if there is no evidence of the subject being a proponent of an identity: nationalist/pro-independence political parties and movements members, culture-related personalities... should by excluded by default. A good example would be Miguel de Unamuno, who clamied that being Basque was being twice Spanish -Theklan (talk) 22:31, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Threaded discussion
- I'm afraid that where problems exist, you won't find that relying on interpreting the current guidance solves the problems, as is already evident. If you consider only two options, for example:
"Arnaldo Otegi Mondragón (born 6 July 1958) is a Basque politician from Spain"; or
"Arnaldo Otegi Mondragón (born 6 July 1958) is a Spanish politician from the Basque Autonomous Community"
then you produce a situation where one side wins and the other loses – and let's be honest, we have editors who wish to emphasise the Catalan or Basque connections, and other editors who wish to emphasise the Spanish connections. The guidance we currently have, MOS:OPENPARABIO, contains the elements that will usually be present, but makes clear that it is key to explain to the reader why the subject is notable, and so I contend that single most important factor is that we should follow the sources. If the sources overwhelmingly talk about a subject as a "Catalan politician", then it is reasonable for Wikipedia to do so as well. Of course, if the sources describe a Spanish personality who happens to have been born in the Basque Country, but their notability is not related to their birthplace, then "Spanish celebrity" or whatever would be just as reasonable. There will naturally be cases where the sources show that notability depends on both their Spanish citizenship and their Catalan nationality (or whatever word you can agree to describe the status of belonging to the Catalan people). When that happens, and perhaps by default, why can't we use a compromise formula such as :
"Arnaldo Otegi Mondragón (born 6 July 1958) is a Spanish Basque politician"?
Incidentally, that has the advantage of differentiating him from a "French Basque politician", that the "Basque politician" alone does not do. --RexxS (talk) 00:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- My first option would be following the guideline as is currently written and using the country of citizenship. If there is consensus to make an exception for politicians or advocates of independence, I would suggest using the formula that I outlined bellow "... is a politician from (region),(Country)". RexxS proposal is also not fully in line with the guideline, but at least the first word is the country of citizenship which falls in line with the guideline and since it seems clear that for separatists ethnicity is relevant, including it should be justified. It sounds a little artificial in some cases like German Bavarian, French Martinican or American Texan, so even if I don't think is the best option, If the first two are rejected that would be my third choice as long as it is limited to subjects that clearly reject their current country of citizenship.
- Comment if the scope is not limited to biographies of independentist politicians or subjects that have clearly advocated independence of their region, thousands of articles could be changed and a lot of additional time would probably be wasted in discussions.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 09:29, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- The guideline as currently written is clearly inadequate to prevent the current strife, so sticking with the present wording seems pointless. The current guidance contradicts itself as it stands:
"The opening paragraph should usually state: ... Context (location or nationality);"
"The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability"
- Note that the first piece guidance makes no mention at all of "citizenship" - and quite rightly: it is rarely an important factor in a person's notability. It is clear than anyone supportive of a Basque or Catalan nation will regard "Basque" or "Catalan" as nationalities. Anyone opposed to that will deny that they are nationalities. A guideline that is capable of two completely conflicting interpretations is no help in resolving disputes. It needs to be changed. The useful part is the guidance that nationality, residency, citizenship or ethnicity may be used where it is relevant to the subject's notability. Although that may have to be determined on a per-article basis if no consensus can be found here (as it already is at Talk:Carles Puigdemont). The key is that whatever is most relevant to a person's notability should be what the lead mentions, and that requires looking at what the sources say. We cannot entrust the determination of what is relevant merely to the opinions of two diametrically opposed groups of editors unless each group is prepared to give way to some extent and seek a compromise. --RexxS (talk) 15:26, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- The guideline as currently written is clearly inadequate to prevent the current strife, so sticking with the present wording seems pointless. The current guidance contradicts itself as it stands:
- I agree with how the problem is summarized by RexxS's analysis. In my experience, extreme nationalist from any side tend to feel that national identity is mutually exclusive.
- I think we should be very careful with ethnicity matters. It is very complicated to ethnically define what is an ethnic group or who is a member of that group. And that is the first problem I see: when we define the subject as Catalan politician, What is it exactly meant by that? Is it a politician that was born in Catalonia, or a politician born somewhere else but with, say four forefathers with catalan surnames?, or perhaps a politician that thinks that he is catalan?
- I also agree that we should follow the sources. But follow the proper relevant sources that overtly deal with the person's identity as viewed by himself and by others. I don't think it's relevant to count down how many articles describe, for example, Puigdemont as the Catalan president. It doesn't mean that there is an overtly statement by the media on the subject's national identity. I see it more as a circunstancial aspect of the article based on present political state of affairs.
- And if we base the national identity definition on solely the perceived personal sentiment of the subject, What do we do if that sentiment changes? Because people change their views all the time. Keeping track of these sentiments is a sustainable wikipedia?
- As I see it, Puigdemont is relevant because he is a president or a politician or whatever and not because he is catalan or spanish... In my opinion, if consensus cannot be reached, I would go for stating the subject reason for notability and citing the place where the subject was born. Carles Puigdemont i Casamajó is a politician born 29 December 1962 in Amer. Arcillaroja (talk) 09:34, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Arcillaroja: I think that the less that we deviate from the guideline the better, so if we don't use the country of citizenship at the placed outlined in MOS:OPENPARABIO we should at least follow the rest of the guidelines. Examples:
- Joaquim Torra i Pla (born 28 December 1962), known as Quim Torra, is a lawyer and journalist from Catalonia, Spain
- Frantz Fanon (French pronunciation: [fʁɑ̃ts fanɔ̃]; 20 July 1925 – 6 December 1961) was a psychiatrist, philosopher, revolutionary, and writer from Martinique, France
- First name and title, followed by date of birth and death in parenthisis, then would be the place for context (which this option would change), then roles and then why the person is notable. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 10:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, Crystallizedcarbon, I see your point. Maybe that could work too. Perhaps it is a better option! Arcillaroja (talk) 11:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Arcillaroja: as I see it, nobody is disputing that Puigdemont is a politician. However consensus exists that his notability depends on his being a Catalan politician, not a Spanish politician.
- @Crystallizedcarbon: George Washington (1732–1799) was a military commander, politician and revolutionary born in the British colony of North America if
yourthe "where the subject was born" formula were accepted. It's nonsensical. - I suggest you both seriously consider whether you want a pendulum RfC on the page of every Catalan/Basque personality which will almost certainly decide that the Catalan/Basque description is most relative to the subject's notability in the majority of cases (it wasn't even close on Puigdemont's page); or whether you are willing to look for a compromise - perhaps along the lines of "Spanish Catalan" or "Spanish Basque" where sources indicate that as an option and use that as the default guidance. --RexxS (talk) 15:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @RexxS: Washington country of citizenship when he was most notable was America, so there is no issue with applying the policy to introduce him as "an American military commander, politician..." (other than the "when he became" wording discussed in the section above, but we both seem to agree that that is a technicality). As far as your other comment The notability of Jean-Claude Juncker comes for being a European, and notability of almost all regional leaders in the world comes from their region which is what references will reflect specially in news, same goes for the town level or the supranational level. The advantage of the current guideline is that there is no need to argue which level to use, it cites the country as the criteria. The first items listed in MOS:OPENPARABIO are objective and not subject to notability. That is the case with the date of birth and with the country of citizenship. what the person is notable for is listed after the roles. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Crystallizedcarbon: Apologies, that should have been part of my reply to Arcillaroja who proposed a formula
"if consensus cannot be reached, I would go for stating the subject reason for notability and citing the place where the subject was born"
, which leads to such nonsense with Washington. Please accept my sincere regrets for associating you with that piece of textual hogwash. - I firmly disagree that any part of OPENPARABIO is divorced from notability; the introductory sentence of the section makes clear that "the opening paragraph should establish notability, neutrally describe the person, and provide context". I feel that Jean-Claude Juncker, as Prime Minister of Luxembourg from 1995 to 2013 was notable far before he became to be President of the European Commission. The majority of the sources in his biography seem to describe him as PM of Luxembourg, so I don't agree that his notability comes from being a European. That's why he is properly described as a "Luxembourgish politician". I think you'll find that OPENPARABIO actually states "Context (location or nationality)", not country, not citizenship. If the guidance was doing a good job, how do you explain all the different interpretations and exceptions? not to mention the outright battles taking place in this topic area. --RexxS (talk) 16:46, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @RexxS: Perhaps I did not express myself correctly. What I proposed was to avoid the conflict altogether. Now I see that this formula would not work in many cases. It was just an idea. It wasn't my intention to bring pieces of textual hogwash to our discussion. I trust you did not lose your concentration by having to read my hogwash. My apologies if you did. In any case, your proposed compromise i.e.
"Spanish Catalan"
has been tested before. It has been changed many times, by other editors that were not me and were not in any way related to me. Trust me. I remember that it sounded artificial to me the first time I saw it. Perhaps because I had never heard such wording before neither in Spanish nor in English. My main objection is that by using such an umbrella term it could be wrongly implied that the formula spanish catalan refers to a supposed dual citizenship. I read your opinions regarding the fact that context is not equal to citizenship. But the reality is that in the huge majority of BIO's this is actually what is done. I trust you can see my point of view.Arcillaroja (talk) 20:56, 11 July 2018 (UTC)- @Arcillaroja: look, there's no problem in suggesting ideas in order to reach a compromise. If it turns out that the ideas are completely unrealistic, there's no harm done; we only wasted a few electrons. It's nothing personal, so please don't get upset when it happens. I'm not sure what you find problematical with my suggestions: "Spanish Basque" = 302,000 Google hits, and "Spanish Catalan" = 723,000 Google hits, so I'm clearly not the only person to use the phrase. I can't see how Spanish Catalan could imply dual citizenship, as "Catalan" can't be a citizenship since – as I understand it – Catalonia is not a sovereign country, which is the legal entity to which citizens belong. We would wikilink Catalan anyway, which would help clarify that "Spanish" is the citizenship and "Catalan" is the nationality. Wouldn't that be better than warring over using just one or the other word? --RexxS (talk) 21:37, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Hi @RexxS:, first of all thank you for your friendly tone above. Indeed, you are right about "Spanish Basque" being used although I see it's often used as "Spanish Basque Country". At least, that is what I see from the top google hits (most relevant). Not sure if it is applied very often to people, but I could not find a very definitive answer. Regarding "Spanish Catalan", I see that in most of the top 20 google hits, the formula is "Spanish (some simbol) Catalan". I think that if we look at google relevance index, those numbers could be somehow deceiving. In any case I think a wikilink will help a lot. I really don't want to warring. I'm not very good at it. And I also see that your aim is to be as informative as possible. Arcillaroja (talk) 09:04, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Arcillaroja: look, there's no problem in suggesting ideas in order to reach a compromise. If it turns out that the ideas are completely unrealistic, there's no harm done; we only wasted a few electrons. It's nothing personal, so please don't get upset when it happens. I'm not sure what you find problematical with my suggestions: "Spanish Basque" = 302,000 Google hits, and "Spanish Catalan" = 723,000 Google hits, so I'm clearly not the only person to use the phrase. I can't see how Spanish Catalan could imply dual citizenship, as "Catalan" can't be a citizenship since – as I understand it – Catalonia is not a sovereign country, which is the legal entity to which citizens belong. We would wikilink Catalan anyway, which would help clarify that "Spanish" is the citizenship and "Catalan" is the nationality. Wouldn't that be better than warring over using just one or the other word? --RexxS (talk) 21:37, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @RexxS: Perhaps I did not express myself correctly. What I proposed was to avoid the conflict altogether. Now I see that this formula would not work in many cases. It was just an idea. It wasn't my intention to bring pieces of textual hogwash to our discussion. I trust you did not lose your concentration by having to read my hogwash. My apologies if you did. In any case, your proposed compromise i.e.
- @RexxS: No problem. I know we both agree that Wahington's bio follows the guideline. You misunderstood me. I never claimed that OPENPARABIO is divorced form notability, that is obviously wrong. I just pointed out that the first points are objective and not necesarily related to what made the subject notable only at the end is what made the person notable listed. I will comment each individual item in the list to clarify what I meant:
- Name(s) and title(s), if any ; (This is an objective fact)
- Dates of birth and death, if found in secondary sources (do not use primary sources for birth dates of living persons or other private details about them). (Also objective regardless of whether the subject was notable for being born on a particular date)
- Context (location or nationality); (this is explained at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Context and should also be objective "the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident" regardless of whether the subject was notable for his particular country of citizenship)
- The notable position(s) the person held, activities they took part in, or roles they played; (this is the first that part that introduces notability. According to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Positions_and_roles to choose which ones to list we can use how the subject is commonly described by sources)
- Why the person is notable. (After those four things that should be common to all biographies then what made the person notable should be included: Catalan president, first African American President, etc)
- For the example of Jean-Claude Junker, if he would have been notable only as President of the European Commission would you introduce his biography as a European politician?. And how about people whose notability is only as regional politicians or city mayors or any other subdivisions? --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 17:22, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Crystallizedcarbon: It seems to me that OPENPARABIO#Context is contradicted, not explained, by the later section. It's a huge mistake to confuse nationality with citizenship, especially given the differing views on whether any particular group of people constitute a nation or not. You may remember my examples at another place where I argued that Dylan Thomas was Welsh, Patrick Pearse was Irish, Washington was American, and while their nationality was beyond dispute, their citizenship belonged to another entity for all or most of their lives. One cannot simply assume that citizenship = nationality, and much of the current dispute hinges on that fact. I don't agree that we should only mention what makes a person notable after stating four other things. The essence of a lead is conciseness and prescriptive interpretations of guidance are often counter-productive. No, we should not have to state citizenship in the opening sentence of every biography, and very many articles do not follow that pattern. When citizenship is irrelevant to a person's notability, it has no place in the opening sentence.
- Junker is an interesting case. If he continues in the role as President of the European Commission for some time, we may reach the point where the preponderance of sources describe him as that. In that case, I'd be very much in favour of starting with "Jean-Claude Junker ... is a European politician who ...". We shouldn't be making those determinations based on our own preconceptions: as with all content problems, we should be guided by the sources.
- As for smaller subdivisions than nations, I still think we just have to look to the sources. I wouldn't see any problem in describing Harvey Milk as a "Californian politician" in preference to an "American politician" if the sources agreed, but it's not really an issue in my view because he was notable for being gay and being assassinated, not for being Californian or American; although if the purpose of that description is to set the context, i.e. location, then "Californian" would clearly be more informative than "American". Bringing that analogy back to Spain, wouldn't Javier Fernández Fernández ... is the Asturian President be far more informative than Javier Fernández Fernández ... is a Spanish politician? --RexxS (talk) 19:48, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @RexxS: I don´t see any contradiction between MOS:OPENPARABIO and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Context location or nationaliy seems to fits with country of citizenship or country of nationality or country of permanent residence as outlined in the section. As we also discussed before England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland are Countries of the United Kingdom and are covered by the guideline according to WP:UKNATIONALS and we also agreed that Washington does follow the spirit of the guideline.
- My interpretation of the current guideline is that we should not open the article of Jean-Claude Junker as a European politician or Javier Fernandez as an Asturian politician or Harvey Milk as a Californian politician even if true and relevant it would go against our current guideline. for keeping a common style across articles and to avoid thousands of changes I would advise against modifying it. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 20:43, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Crystallizedcarbon: The only way for there not to be a contradiction between (1) "location or nationality" and (2) "country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident", is if you don't make any distinction between location and country, and between citizenship, nationality and residency. Yet they are very distinct concepts. How would describing Javier Fernandez as the Asturian President or Harvey Milk as a Californian politician go against the guideline which indicates that location and residency are possible descriptions. What value is there in rigidly following a particular interpretation of part of a guideline that produces less information for the reader? --RexxS (talk) 21:13, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @RexxS: It so happens that I myself am from Asturias and I am proud to be an Asturian, we have our own dialect and culture. I am also Spanish and as all Spanish people both my national identity card and my passport explicitly state that my nationality (nacionalidad) is Spanish. In the passport is written in three languages (Nacionalidad/Nationality/Nationalité): Española (which means Spanish). This is the same for all Spanish nationals regardless of the Autonomous community they are from. To source this you can check this interview to Oriol Junqueras where he stated: In my ID it says I'm Spanish, At this time I'm a Spanish citizen from a legal point of view
- Describing Javier Fernandez as Asturian right after the date of birth goes against the section where context is explained and the country is cited as the criteria to be used. of course the very relevant fact that he is the Asturian president should be mentioned elsewhere in the lead. so I am by no means proposing that we give less information to the reader. The country adds context and so does the region and ethnicity when relevant, I think it's just a matter of following a consistent format across all biographies. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 21:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Crystallizedcarbon: Well, I'm an Englishman living in the Black Country, part of Great Britain and I'm a citizen of the United Kingdom and of the European Union (for now). My passport says "Nationality/Nationalité: BRITISH CITIZEN" which obviously confuses nationality with citizenship. So you really shouldn't be putting much store on what it says in your passport. I'm a Francophile and support the French national sports teams (allez les bleus!), but that doesn't explain why half of my passport is in French.
- Describing Javier Fernandez as Asturian seems to me to fit with OPENPARABIO#3: "Context (location or nationality);" Surely the reader gets more information from "Asturian President" (location - role) than from "Spanish politician"? What's more important: one interpretation of a guideline (that hedges with the word "usually"), or giving the reader more information? Why would we follow a false consistency across all biographies when both circumstances and sources differ? There's no consistency between the Spanish regions: Asturias is a principality, but Catalonia is designated as a nationality. How can we consistently follow a guideline that recognises nationality as a recommended description when some regions are nationalities and others are not? That's a false consistency that serves no purpose, and certainly does not serve the reader. --RexxS (talk) 22:14, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- The UK is a very special case covered by WP:UKNATIONALS the nationality of all Spanish people is Spanish. There might be some confusion because the Spanish constitution introduced the term "nacionalities" which currently applies to 8 regions but it clarifies "The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards" our nationality is Spanish as stated by Oriol Junqueras himself. My interpretation of the manual of style is that it strives to provide consistency through all articles. If Asturias been a principality is for some reason a problem you can substitute Javier Fernandez for Ximo Puig instead. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 23:11, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- The UK is no more a special case than anywhere else. There certainly seems to be some confusion on your part. Catalan is a nationality, so according to the guideline, there's absolutely no reason to exclude it from the opening sentence. This is the English Wikipedia and we use English words with English meanings, regardless of whether your usage in Spanish differs. Your interpretation of the MOS is completely mistaken. It is not a mechanism for producing uniformity across articles - where on earth did you get that idea from? As with all WP:Policies and guidelines, its purpose is "to describe best practices, clarify principles, resolve conflicts, and otherwise further our goal of creating a free, reliable encyclopedia."
The WP:Manual of Style is bluntly clear about its requirement that an "article should be internally consistent"; but nowhere is there any requirement to create consistency between articles, and if you claim otherwise, I'm going to have to ask you to cite the policy or guideline that says so. When you've checked and can find no support for your assertion, I hope that convinces you that your line of reasoning is flawed and that you will now reconsider your over-reliance on a guideline that simply does not support the line that you are arguing. --RexxS (talk) 23:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)Although Wikipedia generally does not employ hard-and-fast rules, Wikipedia's policy and guideline pages describe its principles and agreed-upon best practices. Policies are standards that all users should normally follow, and guidelines are generally meant to be best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. Policies and guidelines should always be applied using reason and common sense.
- The UK is no more a special case than anywhere else. There certainly seems to be some confusion on your part. Catalan is a nationality, so according to the guideline, there's absolutely no reason to exclude it from the opening sentence. This is the English Wikipedia and we use English words with English meanings, regardless of whether your usage in Spanish differs. Your interpretation of the MOS is completely mistaken. It is not a mechanism for producing uniformity across articles - where on earth did you get that idea from? As with all WP:Policies and guidelines, its purpose is "to describe best practices, clarify principles, resolve conflicts, and otherwise further our goal of creating a free, reliable encyclopedia."
- The UK is a very special case covered by WP:UKNATIONALS the nationality of all Spanish people is Spanish. There might be some confusion because the Spanish constitution introduced the term "nacionalities" which currently applies to 8 regions but it clarifies "The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards" our nationality is Spanish as stated by Oriol Junqueras himself. My interpretation of the manual of style is that it strives to provide consistency through all articles. If Asturias been a principality is for some reason a problem you can substitute Javier Fernandez for Ximo Puig instead. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 23:11, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Crystallizedcarbon: The only way for there not to be a contradiction between (1) "location or nationality" and (2) "country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident", is if you don't make any distinction between location and country, and between citizenship, nationality and residency. Yet they are very distinct concepts. How would describing Javier Fernandez as the Asturian President or Harvey Milk as a Californian politician go against the guideline which indicates that location and residency are possible descriptions. What value is there in rigidly following a particular interpretation of part of a guideline that produces less information for the reader? --RexxS (talk) 21:13, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Crystallizedcarbon: Apologies, that should have been part of my reply to Arcillaroja who proposed a formula
- @RexxS: Washington country of citizenship when he was most notable was America, so there is no issue with applying the policy to introduce him as "an American military commander, politician..." (other than the "when he became" wording discussed in the section above, but we both seem to agree that that is a technicality). As far as your other comment The notability of Jean-Claude Juncker comes for being a European, and notability of almost all regional leaders in the world comes from their region which is what references will reflect specially in news, same goes for the town level or the supranational level. The advantage of the current guideline is that there is no need to argue which level to use, it cites the country as the criteria. The first items listed in MOS:OPENPARABIO are objective and not subject to notability. That is the case with the date of birth and with the country of citizenship. what the person is notable for is listed after the roles. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, Crystallizedcarbon, I see your point. Maybe that could work too. Perhaps it is a better option! Arcillaroja (talk) 11:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Arcillaroja: I think that the less that we deviate from the guideline the better, so if we don't use the country of citizenship at the placed outlined in MOS:OPENPARABIO we should at least follow the rest of the guidelines. Examples:
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you in this point. I interpret that "consistent" in "The MoS presents Wikipedia's house style, to help editors write articles with consistent and precise language" means to strive towards having a format that is consistent across all articles, not that each article should be consistent with itself. Starting biographies with the name followed by the date, country of citizenship/nationality/residence, roles and then notable facts is a consistent format for our biographical articles. And on your other point, Catalonia is not a country but England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland are.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 08:21, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- RexxS, yes, there are all sorts of combinations involving citizenship/ethnicity/country/region that could be used in the lead. Article-specific consensus would be ideal but given the level of hostility between editors I can't see this happening, particularity in respect of nationalist politicians. Unless we come up with a specific but broad consensus I fear the disputes will continue.--Obi2canibe (talk) 12:25, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- The principal purpose of MoS is cross-article consistency. It's not "required like a law", but needs to be a really good reason, not just WP:ILIKEIT, to diverge. We've codified a handful of them, like WP:ENGVAR, as a really good reason. Where the selection is just arbitrary (i.e., simply doesn't matter), MoS doesn't have and shouldn't have a line-item about it, like whether to prefer "fowl" over "poultry". Otherwise, just follow the guideline. It exists to followed not to be battlegrounded about. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:56, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- No that's a completely unsupported assertion. Where does it state anywhere that the purpose – let alone the principal purpose – of MoS is "cross-article consistency"? Answer: nowhere. You only have to read my comment above to see where I've quoted PAG:
"to describe best practices, clarify principles, resolve conflicts, and otherwise further our goal of creating a free, reliable encyclopedia."
Nothing about "cross-article consistency". In the MoS, there is plenty of guidance on producing "consistency within articles", which could be reasonably asserted to be a principal purpose, but that's as far as it goes. - Of course, common sense dictates that we should try to be consistent between articles, where possible, but not to the extent that that editors insist on applying a guideline to articles where it is clearly inappropriate. We all know that "wikt:a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds and attempting to use just one part of these guidelines to exclude the descriptions of "Basque" or "Catalan", for example, from the introduction to a subject does a disservice to our readers. We should follow the sources. --RexxS (talk) 11:38, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- Of course MoS doesn't state something like that. Go count up how many guidelines or policies on Wikipedia say anything even vaguely like "this is intended to apply across all of our articles". Our editors do not have dain brammage and we don't browbeat them with the obvious. It's implicit in the entire nature of what a policy or guideline is. We don't need to spell out for our editors that BLP applies to all bios not to just all of them except people in Chile, or that NPOV doesn't have an exception for articles you write at midnight, or that NPA applies to everyone on all pages, without a free pass for attacking people at WikiProject Underwater Basketweaving.
If MoS were not intended for cross-article consistency it would not exist. There would be literally no purpose whatsoever for it. Our entire Manual of Style could simply be the single sentence "Write any way you want, as long as it's consistent in the same article; the end." The only possible reason for any of our style guidelines and any item in them is that they are to be applied regardless what article you're working on, unless there's a compelling reason that it'll objectively improve the encyclopedia if you diverge in a particular case.
Let's not be silly. There is literally no one else on Wikipedia I've ever encountered who doesn't understand this. I can't actually believe that you don't either; it looks like you're playing some kind of arguing-just-to-argue game. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:31, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- You make a statement that you can't support, so you decide to call me silly. That's very mature and does a lot to advance your case. How about you retract that? The rest of your diatribe has now descended into argumentum ad extremum: if it doesn't say exactly what you believe it should say, then there's no other possibility.
"If MoS were not intended for cross-article consistency it would not exist"
. Utter codswallop and you know it. There are lots of purposes for our PAG, as I've quoted above, but "cross-article consistency" isn't one of them. You seem to be the one who's arguing for the sake of arguing, along with a large dose of IDIDNTHEARTHAT. --RexxS (talk) 15:42, 16 July 2018 (UTC)- I didn't call you silly, I suggested that we not continue a silly discussion. I didn't make the statement you're reacting to. And I did support it; just because it's not a rule you can thump like a bible doesn't mean the principle doesn't exist. This has already been explained to you. Reacting angrily is not an argument, and since you've not provided an actual rebuttal of anything substantive or meaningful, I decline to re-repeat; circular argument isn't conducive to resolving anything, and it doesn't look like anyone else cares about this diversion anyway. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish - our present "style guidelines and any item in them is that they are to be applied regardless what article you're working on" don't work. They are not inclusive. They are taken by some users to delete the Basques and the Catalans from our encyclopaedia, an encyclopaedia which should be a record of the sum of all human knowledge, including the Basques and the Catalans. At present, the style guidelines are ethnically cleansing both nationalities out of history. Things need to change, and I agree 100% with what Doug is saying. He has shown "compelling reasons" that "objectively improve the encyclopedia". Take a few days to seagull-view what's been happening, please. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 07:27, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
- I didn't call you silly, I suggested that we not continue a silly discussion. I didn't make the statement you're reacting to. And I did support it; just because it's not a rule you can thump like a bible doesn't mean the principle doesn't exist. This has already been explained to you. Reacting angrily is not an argument, and since you've not provided an actual rebuttal of anything substantive or meaningful, I decline to re-repeat; circular argument isn't conducive to resolving anything, and it doesn't look like anyone else cares about this diversion anyway. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
- You make a statement that you can't support, so you decide to call me silly. That's very mature and does a lot to advance your case. How about you retract that? The rest of your diatribe has now descended into argumentum ad extremum: if it doesn't say exactly what you believe it should say, then there's no other possibility.
- Of course MoS doesn't state something like that. Go count up how many guidelines or policies on Wikipedia say anything even vaguely like "this is intended to apply across all of our articles". Our editors do not have dain brammage and we don't browbeat them with the obvious. It's implicit in the entire nature of what a policy or guideline is. We don't need to spell out for our editors that BLP applies to all bios not to just all of them except people in Chile, or that NPOV doesn't have an exception for articles you write at midnight, or that NPA applies to everyone on all pages, without a free pass for attacking people at WikiProject Underwater Basketweaving.
- No that's a completely unsupported assertion. Where does it state anywhere that the purpose – let alone the principal purpose – of MoS is "cross-article consistency"? Answer: nowhere. You only have to read my comment above to see where I've quoted PAG:
- The principal purpose of MoS is cross-article consistency. It's not "required like a law", but needs to be a really good reason, not just WP:ILIKEIT, to diverge. We've codified a handful of them, like WP:ENGVAR, as a really good reason. Where the selection is just arbitrary (i.e., simply doesn't matter), MoS doesn't have and shouldn't have a line-item about it, like whether to prefer "fowl" over "poultry". Otherwise, just follow the guideline. It exists to followed not to be battlegrounded about. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:56, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Problem with the scope and alternative proposal
The current scope mentioning only Catalonia and the Basque region does not make sense, in Spain alone there are 15 other Autonomous communities of Spain many of which have nationalist aspirations. Criteria should be uniform for biographies of other independentists from Galicia, Andalusia, the Canary Islands etc... I also don't see a reason to make a distinction with other regions around the world where part of their population strives for independence, like Flanders, Bavaria, Corsica, Martinique, California, Texas etc. This and many more regions were also mentioned in the debate that sparked this RfC.
The current wording of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Context uses as a criteria the "country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident". The proposed RfC relates to how we interpret, of if we change, that wording for subjects of biographies that want independence from their current countries and therefore have a strong regional identity. An independentist from Bavaria would feel more Bavarian than German as an independentist from Catalonia would feel more Catalan than Spanish.
My proposed "third way" is based on a solution proposed by only in death. The idea would be to sidestep the nationality issue by deviating a bit from MoS for subjects that are politicians or advocates of independence and instead of "is a Spanish politician" write "is a politician from Catalonia, Spain" (change Spain and Catalonia for any of the other countries and regions). The subject could also be described as Catalan, Bavarian, Corsican, etc. elsewhere in the lead. It is not fully in line with Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Context but it would requiere no change to the guideline and avoids the posibility of misinterpretation of substituting the country of citizenship for regional identity which happens to be their political objective and could be considered WP:ADVOCACY of that goal. It also avoids for independentists to be presented at the beginning of their biographies as something that they do not identify with and strive to change. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 07:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- I strongly agree with Crystallizedcarbon and the proposed solution presented by only in death. Arcillaroja (talk) 08:35, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Crystallizedcarbon, Catalan and Basque were just examples used to assist editors unfamiliar with the subject. The scope of this Rfc is all Spanish biographies. We are not trying to re-write this policy, we are trying to achieve local consensus in respect of Spanish biographies in order to limit the disruption caused by repetitive disputes.--Obi2canibe (talk) 12:10, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- I understand and agree but I don't think it should be limited to Spanish biographies as the arguments would be just as valid for other regions where part of the population strives for independence and the result of this RfC could also affect them. I see no reason to treat Spain different than other countries and make a specific interpretation valid only for Spain. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 13:11, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Please don't derail this RfC which is specific to "Spanish regional identities". You are free to open another RfC on wider issues, but discussing non-Spanish groups is off-topic for this RfC as it stands. --RexxS (talk) 15:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- There is no intention on derailing the RfC, on the contrary, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Context applies to all biographies, Spain is not the only country with nationalist regional aspirations. Above I cited some examples but there are many more. I don't see a reason why a Catalan or an Andalusian should be treated differently than a Quebecois or a Corsican to name two examples. We can propose and discuss changes to the guideline, but they should not be arbitrary.
- Limiting the debate just to Spain based only on the current disputes is arbitrary. I think it would be reasonable to widen the scope to people that have a clear preference of their regional identity and want independence from their current country. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 15:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- And I disagree that you can widen the scope of an RfC after it has been open for days, nor is keeping a clearly defined scope "arbitrary". The disadvantage of bringing up subjects not covered by the RfC is that you dramatically reduce the chance of reaching a consensus on the original issue. There is a clear need to establish consensus on how to describe Spanish Basque and Spanish Catalan personalities in the lead of their biographies because of the editing conflicts going on in that precise area. RfCs are part of Wikipedia's dispute resolution system, and are not needed to resolve issues where there is no dispute. --RexxS (talk) 16:58, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Please don't derail this RfC which is specific to "Spanish regional identities". You are free to open another RfC on wider issues, but discussing non-Spanish groups is off-topic for this RfC as it stands. --RexxS (talk) 15:07, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- I understand and agree but I don't think it should be limited to Spanish biographies as the arguments would be just as valid for other regions where part of the population strives for independence and the result of this RfC could also affect them. I see no reason to treat Spain different than other countries and make a specific interpretation valid only for Spain. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 13:11, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Crystallizedcarbon, there are numerous cases of local consensus without affecting project-wide consensus. This Rfc is about Spanish biographies. If you want widen the scope please start a separate Rfc. Let this one run its course.--Obi2canibe (talk) 17:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- There should be a well defined criteria for that division. It would make no sense to have to open another RfC for each of the many countries that have regions where part of the population also want independence. I think it would also make no sense to open another one in parallel with the exact information but just for all countries. The arguments in this RfC so far can be applied to the biography of any person that wants their region to be independent form its current country. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 17:37, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- But we don't rely solely on individual self-description (although that is an important factor to be considered). We rely on summarising what the best independent sources say. If sources uniformly describe Nestor Basterretxea as a Basque artist, born in the Basque Country, and notable for his works related to that region, it is singularly unhelpful to our readers to change his opening sentence to read "Nestor Basterretxea Arzadun ... was a Spanish artist". The formulation "Nestor Basterretxea Arzadun ... was a Spanish Basque artist" would be a far better reflection of the sources, a much better indication of the reasons for notability, and equally reasonable under our guidelines. --RexxS (talk) 12:13, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- There should be a well defined criteria for that division. It would make no sense to have to open another RfC for each of the many countries that have regions where part of the population also want independence. I think it would also make no sense to open another one in parallel with the exact information but just for all countries. The arguments in this RfC so far can be applied to the biography of any person that wants their region to be independent form its current country. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 17:37, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Crystallizedcarbon, there are numerous cases of local consensus without affecting project-wide consensus. This Rfc is about Spanish biographies. If you want widen the scope please start a separate Rfc. Let this one run its course.--Obi2canibe (talk) 17:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
The eight nationalities in Spain, as stated by the Spanish law
I see that nobody here has taken into account that in Spain, legally, there are three "historical nationalities" (Basque Country, Catalonia, and Galicia) from the very approval of the 1978 Spanish Constitution, and five other (Andalusia, Aragon, the Balearic Islands, the Canary Islands, and the Valencian Community) which acquired that status afterwards. You can read "Nationalities and regions of Spain" if you do not trust me. So my proposal is: the same that UK citizens from England, Scotland, Wales are not depicted according to their citizenship ("British" or "UK citizen"), we should not depict those people as merely Spanish. If those nationalities have an special legal status, that should be reflected in the lead: "a(n) Andalusian/Basque/Catalan... Spanish."
And if somebody is secessionist, only the nationality that person wants to be independent should be mentioned. That would reflect better the notability of the biographied person, I think. Of course, besides nationality, the country of citizenship should also be mentioned (for example: "Arnaldo Otegi Mondragón (born 6 July 1958) is a Basque politician from the Basque Autonomous Community in Spain"). --Xabier Armendaritz(talk) 23:05, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- @Xabier Armendaritz: I just commented on that above. the term nationalities was introduced by the Spanish constitution, but as you can read in the article you cited
the second article was passed along with the term "nationalities" but firmly stressing the indivisible unity of the Spanish nation.[8] It reads:
The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all
- the UK is the union of four countries, Spanish regions are not countries we are divided into 17 autonomous communities. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 23:22, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Semantic hair-splitting; many of them were subsumed under the Spanish crown through a similar royal union process. Several have strong nationalist movements, and many remain nations in the cultural sense. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:22, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: The royal union process that I think you are referring to involved the kingdom of Castile and the kingdom of Aragon please see: Habsburg_Spain#Beginnings_of_the_empire_(1504–1521). Catalonia for example, was part of the kingdom of Aragon and has never been a country. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 08:31, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- That is independent from the fact that 47.5% of voters in the last regional election of Catalonia chose political parties in favor of making Catalonia an independent country so yes, there is a strong nationalistic movement. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 08:38, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- Those eight nationalities in Spain have been recognized "historical and cultural identity" by laws of the highest rank in Spain, the statutes of autonomy ("a law hierarchically located under the constitution of [the] country, and over any other form of legislation"). So those eight nationalities should be mentioned besides citizenship. I am not proposing to delete any piece of information, but to add valuable information that reflects better nationalities in Spain as per the Spanish law. --Xabier Armendaritz(talk) 08:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- You're not going back far enough. Many of these were independent kingdoms and principalities at one point. Please just stop arguing about this trivia as if you can WP:WIN, and just absorb the actual point. Gaaahhh ... — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:59, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- From the legal point of view, all autonomous communities are equivalent in their subordination to the constitutional order, regardless of the terminology used in their definition. This is a well known fact. Nationalities != Nations. That is also a well known fact. Therefore the stated solution is not applicable in my opinion. Arcillaroja (talk) 12:37, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- This is not about legalisms, it's about whether readers will be mislead and subjects misrepresented. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:58, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- On the English Wikipedia, we use English words to convey an English meaning. When our descriptions of best practice use the word nationality, we mean that to refer to the status of belonging to a particular nation. As the English definition of a nation is commonly understood to be "a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory"], there can be no doubt that Catalonia and the Basque Country (greater region) are to be regarded as "nations" for the purpose of understanding our guideline. The English Wikipedia is not beholden to Spanish Law to interpret our guidelines. --RexxS (talk) 11:53, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- That might be overstating the case a little (different fluent English speakers have different understandings of nation, often in different contexts), but that's the gist of the case I'm making as well. A large subset of readers will think of the concept that way. Another will treat it as synonymous with nation-state; some right now on this page are doing so, and this seems to be why this tedious sub-debate is happening. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:36, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
- From the legal point of view, all autonomous communities are equivalent in their subordination to the constitutional order, regardless of the terminology used in their definition. This is a well known fact. Nationalities != Nations. That is also a well known fact. Therefore the stated solution is not applicable in my opinion. Arcillaroja (talk) 12:37, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
- Semantic hair-splitting; many of them were subsumed under the Spanish crown through a similar royal union process. Several have strong nationalist movements, and many remain nations in the cultural sense. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:22, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Actors in plot summaries
Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film#Proposed MoS change: actors' names (not) in plot sections
Gist: MOS:FILM and MOS:TV are in conflict about whether to give actors' names in plot summaries. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:59, 15 July 2018 (UTC)