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::::# A book that is not self-published nor on a fringe topic nor written by a fringe theorist? |
::::# A book that is not self-published nor on a fringe topic nor written by a fringe theorist? |
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:::::[[User:Kooky2|Kooky2]] ([[User talk:Kooky2|talk]]) 00:50, 23 October 2012 (UTC) |
:::::[[User:Kooky2|Kooky2]] ([[User talk:Kooky2|talk]]) 00:50, 23 October 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Thank you for the opportunity to elaborate Blueboar. I have been wanting to come back and respond to earlier posts but needed time to do so. There is relevance in what you say but there are other points to consider too. |
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::::::First of all, can I clarify that discussion on the wording of [[WP:Fringe]] should take place here, on this talk page, as it states in the notice box at the top of the page? IRWolfie has suggested that it should take place on the talk page of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#astrologers_at_WP:FRINGE Fringe theories notice board], which might be a good place to attract attention, but does not seem to be the place to determine consensus regarding word changes to this project page. |
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:::::: The title of this page makes a clear enough statement on where its remit extends: theories and ideas. The guidelines ensure we don't give promotion to ideas that are not supported by the mainstream academic or scientific community, which does not prevent Wikipedia from reporting on the details of fringe, so long as the contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints are made clear. We all agree on that. |
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:::::: At the end of August Saedon began a series of bold edits which changed the historical references to 'fringe view' to read 'fringe view (or organizations)', as it reads now. IRWolfie wants to extend it further so that any biography can be defined as a 'fringe topic' if the person's notability involves a relation with a fringe theory. |
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:::::: Where this becomes messy is in regard to what constitutes sufficient notability for a person's biography to be granted inclusion in Wikipedia. According to the policy implications of the proposed word change, it will not matter how prominent and influential someone might have been in their own fields, (even if those fields have millions of followers), nor whether their work has been instrumental in pioneering new concepts that have attracted a huge number of adherents. IRWolfie's insistence (given many times in deletion proposals) is that the proposed wording limits biographical inclusion to those whose work can be proven to have been referenced ''extensively'', and in a ''serious'' and ''reliable'' manner, in at least one ''major'' (mainstream) publication that is fully independent of those who are interested or believe in the theory. This is not realistic or practical, especially for historical biographies where basic biographical information (such as dates and times of notable career impact) are only likely to be found in subject-related publications. |
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::::::IRWolfie has argued for a number of biography deletions on the basis that this page prohibits reference to them from subject-related publications. She was not successful in recent attempts; however arguments and edit-wars will continue unless the discussion is engaged in fully, and a reliable consensus achieved to bring the clarity of principle that Batard0 [[Wikipedia_talk:Fringe_theories#Help_with_guidelines|has asked for]]. |
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::::::In fact, I believe Batard0 has sought clarification in the wrong place. The policies that estblish the notability criteria for persons (''any'' persons) are not determined here but at Wikipedia:Notability (people) [[WP:BIO]]. There are various ways in which a person is deemed to be notable, (defined as "worthy of notice" – that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded"). There is no prohibitive exclusion if someone's work has not been referenced ''extensively'', and in a serious and reliable manner, in at least one major publication that is independent of those who are interested or believe in the theory. The criteria that applies to authors or 'creative professionals', for example [[Wikipedia:Bio#Creative_professionals|is explained here]]. |
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::::::A person whose work lacks extensive and serious discussion in a major mainstream academic or scientific work can achieve notability if they are widely cited by their peers of successors; or if they are known for originating new concepts, or have had multiple independent periodical articles or review, or if they are widely recognised as having left an enduring historical record in his or her field [[WP:ANYBIO]]. |
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::::::Further, according to IRWolfie's insistence that this policy applies to persons and not just theories and ideas, she argues that even the most basic biographical information cannot come from subject-related publications. Why not? How does this endanger the interests of WP's undue weight concerns? The supposed logic is that no book which treats fringe subjects seriously can be considered a reliable source, or independent of the subject (if they treat it seriously they must be associated with it), therefore ''no reliable independent'' sources actually exist for a fringe topic, or for any person who becomes notable through their association with it. |
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::::::My argument in no way dilutes the applicability of WP's fringe theory policy as IRWolfie [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=518752477 has suggested]. Within biographies of persons whose work is related to fringe subjects we need to tread carefully, apply these guidelines and ensure there is no undue weight. These policies only require that ''theories'' and ''beliefs'' are explained appropriately, without any sense of promotion or mainstream acceptance. ''Within the content'' of the biography fringe theory policy applies just as it does everywhere on WP. My argument is only that what determines sufficient notability for the inclusion of biographies on WP is not subject to the guidelines of this page (IRWolfies has argued it is). My position is that these guidelines instruct us on how to report the details of the theory, not the biographical details of a person who gains notability through their advocacy of it. |
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::::::If IRWolfie wants to change the policy that relates to the biographies of persons with connections to fringe, she should raise the matter for discussion at Wikipedia:Notability (people), so that we have one centralized place of reference, and don't cause everlasting edit wars by creating guidelines here that contradict the established policies that are clearly stated there. [[User:Logical 1|Logical 1]] ([[User talk:Logical 1|talk]]) 01:08, 23 October 2012 (UTC) |
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Booth Escaped
(discussion moved to Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Booth_Escaped
Discussion at WT:NPOV
There is ongoing discussion at WT:NPOV#Articles about minority-POV holders that suggests to me that this page might be changed, right under the Jimboquote, from "Articles which cover controversial, disputed, or discounted ideas in detail" to "Articles which relate to controversial, disputed, or discounted ideas in detail". Coverage is a function of what editors have inserted, relation is a function of how it actually stands IRL. But please centralize discussion at the link above, where a fuller rationale appears. JJB 17:20, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Contradiction
Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Reliable_sources: "A fringe theory can be considered notable enough for a dedicated article if it has been referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory." Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Unwarranted promotion of fringe theories: For a fringe theory to be considered notable, it is not sufficient that it has been discussed, positively or negatively, by groups or individuals, even if those groups are notable enough for a Wikipedia article. I have boldly removed the wording "or by a or by a notable group or individual" since clearly the important part is the serious and extensive discussion in a major publication to ensure notability. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:32, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
- That's a non-trivial change - you're actually eliminating a significant class of articles here - those that are widely known and discussed by huge numbers of important people - but which don't happen to have been picked up by a major publication. I'm not necessarily saying that this is a bad thing - but it's not a "be bold" kind of a change, we should discuss it.
- That said, I'm not sure that the original text was contradictory: The first part says that "A fringe theory can be considered notable" under some set of conditions - not that it must be. The second part qualifies that by saying that it's not sufficient for the individuals or groups doing the discussing to be notable...which fits with the first part's qualification "...a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory". So my reading of these two statements is that if a person/group is both notable and independent and talks about the theory...or if it appears in a major publication - then that is sufficient to warrant an article here (providing there are WP:RS for all of that).
- I do agree that some clarification is needed here...I'm just not sure this is the right clarification.
- The question is: Are there significant numbers of fringe topics that aren't covered by major publications but which are being talked about by some other means (eg web sites, minor publications) by lots of notable, independent people. If not - then your edit is OK - if so, then we may have a problem with scope creep.
- SteveBaker (talk) 20:53, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see how the intention of the guideline could be fulfilled if there is no independent reliable source discussing it: it just provides, at most, the opinions of a notable individual to add to the article. Notable individuals can't provide the sort of extensive reliable coverage that is desired from a reliably published work. If the notable individual discusses the fringe theory in a major publication such that their description of the fringe theory is reliable then the additional fringe criteria is satisfied anyway. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:37, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
- What you are asking for is for the notable individual to engage with a fringe theory in a scholarly way. I think a much more likely scenario is for the notable, independent individual to simply rubbish the fringe theory without condescending to engage with it. I think that would be enough to establish notability. Wikipedia is not just about what is published in scholarly journals. Aarghdvaark (talk) 05:33, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah... I don't really see a need for "... or by a notable group or individual". If the individual or group is notable, their views will be published. There may be a few very obscure fringe theories that have not come to the attention of the media... but not many. Fringe theories are perfect "public interest" topics for slow news days. Even if the tone of the news report is disparaging, or says the theory is ridiculous, that is enough to establish notability. Blueboar (talk) 00:31, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
- This article's main page Wikipedia: Fringe theories specifically warns that "news sources often cover less than strictly notable topics in a lighthearted fashion, such as on April Fool's Day, as "News of the Weird" or during "slow news days" - so that wouldn't be sufficient to establish notability. But there must anyway be some evidence to enable the talk to be verified, e.g. a link to a transcript of an interview. Disallowing such sources on the basis that they would be covered anyway means that some primary sources would be disallowed in establishing notability. I realise primary sources are not sufficient in themselves to justify setting up an article, but a good thing about Wikipedia is that it often allows readers to see the primary sources for themselves. I think SteveBaker's formulation is correct (slight rewording): if the theory is talked about by a person (or group) who is both notable and independent, or if it appears in at least one major publication - then that is sufficient to warrant an article here. Aarghdvaark (talk) 05:23, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
- The reason we ask for the extra criteria is for neutrality; without the mainstream coverage we can't be neutral. Having a notable person talk about the theory does not help us achieve neutrality. Having an academic source discuss the fringe theory in depth does. IRWolfie- (talk) 00:17, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
- We don't necessarily need academic sources to show that a fringe theory is notable... a significant amount of coverage by "general public" sources can be enough. Yes, media sources are given less weight than academic sources... but that does not mean media sources are given no weight at all. If several newspapers have independently report on the same fringe theory in their various "News of the Weird" sections, all those articles together can add up to a clear demonstration that the topic is quite notable. (in fact... enough media coverage may actually cause the theory to become notable - as enough reports will mean that the theory has come to the attention of a wide swath of the general public). Blueboar (talk) 00:30, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
- No it's not enough, that is contrary to the current and previous wording. It says "it has been referenced extensively, and in a serious manner", that is above and beyond WP:GNG. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:51, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
- Hang on, this is the particular sentence we are talking about in this section. The version before you changed it said: "if it has been referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory". Can we revert please to this previous version? It has been shown above that actually there wasn't a contradiction - but the wording was confusing so yes that should be changed. Also I think this tightening of the definition is unwarranted - because I think, as I've said before, Wikipedia is not just about what is published in academic sources. Possibly the mention of "serious manner" may be causing problems here. I take it to mean about being wary of "slow news" days etc., but I get the impression you may be taking it as meaning it must be discussed in a reputable journal rather than in a newspaper, which presumably you take by definition as not being a reliable source? All this sets the bar for fringe theories too high because few scientists would bother to engage with a fringe theory and fewer journals would publish such work anyway. Aarghdvaark (talk) 03:04, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
- No it's not enough, that is contrary to the current and previous wording. It says "it has been referenced extensively, and in a serious manner", that is above and beyond WP:GNG. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:51, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
- We don't necessarily need academic sources to show that a fringe theory is notable... a significant amount of coverage by "general public" sources can be enough. Yes, media sources are given less weight than academic sources... but that does not mean media sources are given no weight at all. If several newspapers have independently report on the same fringe theory in their various "News of the Weird" sections, all those articles together can add up to a clear demonstration that the topic is quite notable. (in fact... enough media coverage may actually cause the theory to become notable - as enough reports will mean that the theory has come to the attention of a wide swath of the general public). Blueboar (talk) 00:30, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
- Aarghdvaark has it right... when it comes to notability, the sources do NOT need to be scholarly or academic in nature. If a fringe theory has been seriously discussed in an article from a mainstream news outlet, that article clearly demonstrates a degree of notability. If a proponent of a fringe theory has written a book about it, and that book becomes a best seller... those sales figures are an indication that a lot of people in the mainstream know about the theory... that also goes towards notability of the theory. Remember, notability has nothing to do with whether the mainstream thinks the theory is valid or not (and we can take it as a given that with Fringe theories, the mainstream does not think it valid). When it comes to Fringe topics, notability is akin to "fame"... what we are really determining is: how many people are likely to have heard of it (whether they believe it or not). Blueboar (talk) 00:15, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- No certainly not, and the current and past reading disagrees with that. It must be a major publication discussing and critiquing it. Secondly, the argument that "those sales figures are an indication that a lot of people in the mainstream know about the theory", has no basis in policy or guidelines, see WP:GNG for the standard reasoning for notability; significant coverage in reliable sources. WP:FRINGE adds to this by requiring that at least one source be serious and extensive in it's mention; above and beyond GNG. If the sources don't exist to establish that the article can be covered neutrally then the article can get deleted as well (and I've used that argument successfully at AfD). IRWolfie- (talk) 09:10, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think the bit saying: "It must be a major publication discussing and critiquing it " in order to establish notability is WP:OR. I certainly don't get that from the past reading, which is why I asked you to revert - since you have IMHO made a bold change unilaterally to these guidelines. There's nothing about critiquing at WP:GNG for example. Aarghdvaark (talk) 10:23, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- No certainly not, and the current and past reading disagrees with that. It must be a major publication discussing and critiquing it. Secondly, the argument that "those sales figures are an indication that a lot of people in the mainstream know about the theory", has no basis in policy or guidelines, see WP:GNG for the standard reasoning for notability; significant coverage in reliable sources. WP:FRINGE adds to this by requiring that at least one source be serious and extensive in it's mention; above and beyond GNG. If the sources don't exist to establish that the article can be covered neutrally then the article can get deleted as well (and I've used that argument successfully at AfD). IRWolfie- (talk) 09:10, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- The reason we ask for the extra criteria is for neutrality; without the mainstream coverage we can't be neutral. Having a notable person talk about the theory does not help us achieve neutrality. Having an academic source discuss the fringe theory in depth does. IRWolfie- (talk) 00:17, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
- This article's main page Wikipedia: Fringe theories specifically warns that "news sources often cover less than strictly notable topics in a lighthearted fashion, such as on April Fool's Day, as "News of the Weird" or during "slow news days" - so that wouldn't be sufficient to establish notability. But there must anyway be some evidence to enable the talk to be verified, e.g. a link to a transcript of an interview. Disallowing such sources on the basis that they would be covered anyway means that some primary sources would be disallowed in establishing notability. I realise primary sources are not sufficient in themselves to justify setting up an article, but a good thing about Wikipedia is that it often allows readers to see the primary sources for themselves. I think SteveBaker's formulation is correct (slight rewording): if the theory is talked about by a person (or group) who is both notable and independent, or if it appears in at least one major publication - then that is sufficient to warrant an article here. Aarghdvaark (talk) 05:23, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
The phrase "by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory" is hopelessly problematic. So if some random famous person talks about the theory that Barack Obama is a clone of Akhenaten [1] [2], then it suddenly becomes notable enough to have its own article? I sure hope not. I accept that the discussion does not have to be academic. If there is substantial and sustained media interest (not just a flash-in-the-pan slow-news-day matter), then that couild be sufficient. Paul B (talk) 11:43, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- To be clear, the guideline doesn't mean that a famous individual can come up with a crazy idea - and suddenly there can be an article about it. It says that an "independent" and notable individual has to talk about it...and obviously we need WP:RS to show that they did indeed say that. So if some random individual comes up with the idea - and then it's talked about independently by some notable individual - and they write a book or an article or their statements are reported someplace - then we consider it reasonable for addition. But bear in mind, that WP:FRINGE doesn't trump WP:NOTE. If WP:NOTE says that it's inadmissible - then that's that. SteveBaker (talk) 14:28, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- Please read more carefully, otherwise we will find ourselves in a useless discussion. I said nothing that remotely resembled the claim that guidelines state that if "a famous individual can come up with a crazy idea" we should discuss it. I said that the guidelines as currently written imply that if a "random famous person" commented on an existing fringe theory (one that he/she did not come up with), giving the example of the long-existing Akhenaten=Obama theory, we should have an article on it. As far as I can see none of what you say addresses that issue which is the wording that IRWolfie questioned in this section. That is what we should be discussing. Paul B (talk) 17:16, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Example please?
I'm having some trouble making sense of this conversation. It's pretty clear that there's some situation in mind that has actually arisen, which this is supposed to cover. Can we pick one of these and discuss it please? Mangoe (talk) 11:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- These are supposed to be general guidelines, so it would be problematic to make this about a specific case. However, I suspect that it was initiated by this discussion Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Turkey_Mountain_inscriptions. Paul B (talk) 12:17, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- The case at Talk:Turkey Mountain inscriptions was going on at the same time, but actually this discussion was started because IRWolfie- changed the guidelines on this project page [3], and is now pushing for his version with serious and reliable manner to mean a source for notability has to be an academic source. To back up a bit, I'll try and summarize things. To establish that a theory (e.g. Barack Obama is a clone of Akhenaten) is a reliable fringe theory (oxymoron, but never mind) we need two things.
- First, the theory must be described by a reliable source, and all that means is the source cannot be a blog, or self-published, or YouTube, etc. (which rules out the examples above). It can be a book in which the author states his fringe theory, and what we get from that is the statement that author X believes fringe theory Y. This is a reliable primary source statement which only supports the statement author X believes fringe theory Y, nothing more - certainly not that the theory is either true or notable. It could also be in a newspaper report, in which case it is a reliable secondary source statement (with the caveat about avoiding slow news days, April 1st, etc.). But a reliable primary source statement will do to establish the theory exists even though Wikipedia prefers secondary sources.
- Second, we also need the theory to be notable. This is where the independent comes in, because if it has only been mentioned by supporters of the theory then it is not notable (which also rules out the example above). OTOH if the theory is talked about by a person (or group) who is both notable and independent then that establishes notability - regardless of whether the talk is in favour or against the theory. Of course, this talk needs to be backed up by a reliable source too - otherwise notability cannot be verified. I think the argument at the moment is whether this source has to be an academic source (i.e. a scholarly journal) as IRWolfie I think is asking for, or whether a non-academic source is sufficient, as Blueboar and myself think. Aarghdvaark (talk) 13:02, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think I agree with most of what you just said, Aarghdvaark... but I need you to clarify one thing: You say: "...to establish that a theory is a reliable fringe theory..." etc.. I think I understand what you intended by this - but I think "reliable" is the wrong word ... Did you mean "worthy of having a Wikipedia article devoted to it"? Blueboar (talk) 13:27, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- Yep! Aarghdvaark (talk) 15:53, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- That's notability, not reliability. There is no such thing as a "reliable fringe theory", though there can be a fringe theory discussed in reliable sources. Paul B (talk) 13:31, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- That's just a repetition of WP:GNG. WP:FRINGE establishes additional requirements, on top of WP:GNG. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:06, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think I agree with most of what you just said, Aarghdvaark... but I need you to clarify one thing: You say: "...to establish that a theory is a reliable fringe theory..." etc.. I think I understand what you intended by this - but I think "reliable" is the wrong word ... Did you mean "worthy of having a Wikipedia article devoted to it"? Blueboar (talk) 13:27, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- The case at Talk:Turkey Mountain inscriptions was going on at the same time, but actually this discussion was started because IRWolfie- changed the guidelines on this project page [3], and is now pushing for his version with serious and reliable manner to mean a source for notability has to be an academic source. To back up a bit, I'll try and summarize things. To establish that a theory (e.g. Barack Obama is a clone of Akhenaten) is a reliable fringe theory (oxymoron, but never mind) we need two things.
- I know perfectly well what this discussion is about thank you. Since you have read my contribution to it, you should know that. I shouldn't have to repeat myself, and you shouldn't be confusing two distinct issues. A short phrase was removed: I think correctly. I have have also commented on the quite separate issue of whether sources need to be academic for an article to become notable. I do not think they do have to be, but as it happens I do think it should be said to be desirable. I have absolutely not idea what you mean by establishing that something is a "reliable fringe theory". That's just about as close to an oxymoron as one can get. What matters is whether a fringe theory is notable. That's the criterion. Paul B (talk) 13:23, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry you think this is all a bit obvious. I was replying to user Mangoe and I also did say the phrase "reliable fringe theory" was an oxymoron. I do agree a fringe theory needs to be notable, but what I was trying to show was that notability is just one stage of a typical discussion about whether a fringe theory is worthy of having a Wikipedia article devoted to it (e.g. see the Turkey Mountain inscriptions saga). Aarghdvaark (talk) 15:53, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- I know perfectly well what this discussion is about thank you. Since you have read my contribution to it, you should know that. I shouldn't have to repeat myself, and you shouldn't be confusing two distinct issues. A short phrase was removed: I think correctly. I have have also commented on the quite separate issue of whether sources need to be academic for an article to become notable. I do not think they do have to be, but as it happens I do think it should be said to be desirable. I have absolutely not idea what you mean by establishing that something is a "reliable fringe theory". That's just about as close to an oxymoron as one can get. What matters is whether a fringe theory is notable. That's the criterion. Paul B (talk) 13:23, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
The problem here is that we're talking at cross-purposes about two different things.
- As IRWolfie originally pointed out, our requirements are at best confusingly stated (my opinion) and at worst, downright contradictory (IRWolfie's position). This is undoubtedly true and ought to be uncontroversial. Hence we should rework those two sentences into something that clarifies the intent of the present guideline.
- IRWolfie's chosen alteration of that confusing/contradictory wording definitely reduces the set of topics that should be considered for Wikipedia articles compared to the old wording. That is a much more controversial change - and should be discussed at length with a consensus !vote before we enact it.
SteveBaker (talk) 14:22, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Making sense of the discussion
I think people are conflating disparate issues here, and would like to clarify that situation... This policy addresses several issues relating to the presentation of fringe theories in Wikipedia:
- Should Wikipedia have a stand-alone article about a fringe theory? This is governed by the concept of Notability. In this context the policy functions as an SNG for fringe topics. To show Notability, we must demonstrate that a source other than a fringe theorist (ie independent of the topic) has taken note of it and discussed it in some depth. That source does not have to be a scholarly or academic source... it simply has to be a "mainstream" reliable source. Media sources qualify. That source does not need to "critique" the theory, it simply needs to discuss it in some depth.
- If the theory is Notable enough for Wikipedia to have an article on it... what should that article say about it? This is governed by the concept of NPOV, and its sub-concept of DUE weight. It is not our job to "prove" or "disprove" the theory... instead our goals are to: a) describe to the reader what the theory says, and b) inform them of what different people say about it. Note that the first goal is to describe the theory... it is necessary and appropriate to give a fair amount of weight to what fringe theorists say in order to do this. More weight than we might give the theory in some other context.
- 'Should we mention the theory in other, related articles... and if so, how. This is also determined by NPOV... and by Due Weight. And again, context is important. The same theory may deserve to be given a fair amount of weight in one article... but no weight at all in another article.
Now... if we need to, we can discuss how these three distinct issues relate to specific articles or situations. Blueboar (talk) 14:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree that these are the three main areas that WP:FRINGE covers.
- WP:FRINGE cannot overturn WP:NOTE - if WP:NOTE says that something is not notable then there cannot be an article about it, no matter what WP:FRINGE has to say. However, there is nothing to prevent this guideline from adding more qualifications for fringe articles - even though they may be notable (per WP:NOTE), it may be that they are also too "fringey" to be allowed (per WP:FRINGE). From that perspective, we don't need to restate conditions required by WP:NOTE - merely outline the additional burdens we apply to fringe topics.
- What should fringe articles say? Well, I think we have that part of the guideline well nailed down. I would be reluctant to do more than tweak the wording. While it is important to explain what the theory is (which is often insanely difficult) - that cannot in any way trump the requirement to state the mainstream view front-and-center. If the mainstream says that this is bullshit - then that's what the article has to say - the views of proponents of the fringe theory need to be stated as "So-and-so says this" or "This group of people believe that...".
- The extent to which a fringe theory can be mentioned in some other article should already be covered by WP:WEIGHT. I don't think we should say much about it here other than our existing clarification about fringe theories being discussed in other articles versus fringe theories with their own articles. We don't want to see flat-earth theory in Earth, although it's certainly notable enough to have it's own article. But it's reasonable to have a mention about fringe science and fraud in Oxyhydrogen because much of the discussion around this word is from fringe theorists and that represents sufficient 'due weight'.
- Overall, I believe that we should defer to WP:NOTE and WP:WEIGHT where we can and merely layer the special needs of fringe articles upon those guidelines. I think we're doing OK on our content and due-weight guidelines - but clarification is certainly needed on WP:NOTE requirements.
- SteveBaker (talk) 15:28, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- Things aren't as clear cut as that Blueboar. Bear in mind that if an article can not be described neutrally, i.e because of a lack of mainstream sources, then we don't have an article on it. Example: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Donna_Eden_(2nd_nomination). IRWolfie- (talk) 16:13, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- IRWolfie is right. The problem is WP:SYN. That means that the mainstream position cannot easily be outlined unless there is direct discussion of the theory itself. Fringe proponents can be masters of invoking WP:SYN, leading to the contradiction that fringe theorists can be used to "reliably" outline the theory and arguments for it, but mainstream responses cannot be used unless they are directly addressing the theory. For an example of this very problem see Talk:Turkey_Mountain_inscriptions#Counter-rebuttals_and_avoiding_SYNT_.2F_OR. This problem was partly addressed some while ago by the policy of WP:PARITY, which allows for non-academic mainstream sources in parity to fringe sources, but it remains an issue, and frankly I'm inclined to believe that WP:PARITY itself, as currently worded, contains contradictions. If the fringe theory remains only marginally notable, mainstream response may only be possible by a form of "synthesis" in which general historical/scientic etc facts are brought in to prove that Obama is not a clone of Akenaten. Paul B (talk) 17:36, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm at least convinced that if for instance the only source we have for a bit of Forteana is Charles Fort himself, that's a notability failure. We need outside treatment beyond "it's a slow news day" puff pieces. Therefore it should be generally be unnecessary to deal with the situation where there is only fringe material and no rebuttal, because we wouldn't accept articles which couldn't meet a higher standard of documentation. Mangoe (talk) 19:22, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. I do sympathise with the view that we should be inclusive, and that people in theory at least should be able to come here to get an objective view on any topic, but that can only be possible if we can get policies across the board that will allow mainstream responses without falling foul of WP:SYN. If not, whereof we cannot speak fully we must remain silent. Paul B (talk) 19:36, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- The Turkey Mountain inscriptions article is up for afd because of notability - and because the theory is not talked about by a person (or group) who is both notable and independent then it will probably be deleted (or merged). So I think the guidelines work as they were before IRWolfie's change. This removed the possibility of establishing notability if the theory is discussed by a person (or group) who is both notable and independent, leaving only the possibility of using academic sources. I think there is a consensus here that that is too big a change. I fully agree with SteveBaker that the sentences need to be reworked, but such that the guidelines allow the use of non academic sources to establish notability (as they did before). Aarghdvaark (talk) 03:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
- I see no such consensus, but rather a lot of confusion. I repeat what I wrote above: "The phrase "by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory" is hopelessly problematic. So if some random famous person talks about the theory that Barack Obama is a clone of Akhenaten [4] [5], then it suddenly becomes notable enough to have its own article? I sure hope not. I accept that the discussion does not have to be academic. If there is substantial and sustained media interest (not just a flash-in-the-pan slow-news-day matter), then that couild be sufficient." SteveBaker's reply missed the point. That phrase "a notable group or individual" implies that only one "random famous person", as I put it, needs to comment (albeit "seriously") on an extant fringe theory, however marginal or obscure, in order for any fringe topic to derserve its own article. I think that's too arbitrary and that the paragraph is better without that phrase at all. Paul B (talk) 14:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
- SteveBaker's reply did not miss the point. The original guidelines stated "[a fringe theory justifies a] dedicated article if it has been referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory". IRWolfie made a bold (his description) change to "... in a serious and reliable manner, in at least one major publication that is independent of the theory". He has not achieved consensus so it should either revert to the original or to something which takes on board the points raised above, e.g. serious and reliable manner, in at least one major publication - I can foresee this phrase being used to exclude media, despite people agreeing here that it should not be taken to mean only academic sources.
- I mentioned above that I thought consensus had been reached in that "only the possibility of using academic sources ... is too big a change". Although you saw no such consensus, you yourself have explicitly agreed with it, as I presume IRWolfie does since he has undersigned your entry. Here's another fringe theory: Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. I started to look at the refs, but there are 243 of them, so I gave up - but I didn't find any academic sources there. Assuming for the sake of argument that there are no academic sources there, this article could be up for afd if we keep the guidelines as they now stand. That is because these are guidelines, so it is not what was meant to be said that is important but what is said. Aarghdvaark (talk) 10:22, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry about the delayed reply, but he most certainly did miss the point. Read his reply to my original comment [6]. He completely misunderstood what I said. I do wish editors would take the trouble to read what is actually being referred to rather than attribute arguments to people who did not make them. Your own argument is a separate matter. I addressed the point about the phrase "extensively and in a serious manner" (albeit condensed to the word "seriously"). So your reply again misses the issue. The phrase by "or by a notable group or individual" is a hostage to fortune, is unhelpful and is arbitrary. Let's take my example (Obama = Akhenaten). Let's say a "notable group" devote a webpage to refuting this in detail. What if the "notable group" are some wacko religious organisation who refute it to in order prove that Obama is actually a clone of Moses, not Akhenaten. Likewise, if the notable individual is some nut-job with similarly outlandish theories, we have fringe justifying fringe. The phrasing allows this. Paul B (talk) 20:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
- The difference in the fields matters. For a recent historical event one would expect normal recent historical authorities, that is, newspapers and news magazines, and then after that books by responsible historians and political analysts. For something like the inscriptions we are into paleontology and archaeology, and that's the kind of sources we expect. When the only sources are "weird" (that is, falling outside of the normal sort) that's a sign of fringiness by definition. Mangoe (talk) 12:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, if the only sources are "weird", I would agree... but media sources are not "weird"... they are "mainstream" (even though they may occasionally report on the "weird"). They go towards establishing that a fringe theory is notable. Blueboar (talk) 14:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
- The point you may be missing though is that this isn't enough to ensure that a particular fringe theory article can be written neutrally and without undue promotion: i.e it can fulfil WP:NPOV. That is the only reason it is desirable to have extra requirements on the sources. The previous wording about having a notable person having discussed it, doesn't ensure the article can be written neutrally. Remember that WP:FRINGE came from WP:NPOV.IRWolfie- (talk) 22:27, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
- Why bring WP:NPOV into this discussion? It has already been said here that these guidelines build on stuff like that, so if an article is not neutral etc. it will have to change in order to be kept. Aarghdvaark (talk) 23:54, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, BB, I must revisit this, and I think the point is important. When we're talking about subjects that ought to come in as archaeological or anthropological or the like, the MSM are "weird" when they are the originators of the material. Newspaper reporters are not, as a rule, scientists at all, and even more rarely educated within the particular field for such material. What is mainstream is context-dependent: when the matter at hand is scientific, it's the scientific mainstream that counts, and the mainstream media are outside of that. Slow news day Forteana is not mainstream, and in fact we need to emphasize that especially because people erroneously take a "it must be true, I read it in the paper" approach which perpetuates transmission of fringe nonsense. Sources are not universally reliable; they are only reliable in-field. Mangoe (talk) 13:52, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
- We're out of date order here, but in reply to Mangoe, fringe theories are hardly ever discussed in the mainstream science context, because they are, well, fringe. Sometimes they are picked up by the mainstream media (and not just on 'slow news' days) and that can establish notability. Explaining the gist of the theory in Wikipedia can be difficult, but reliable sources for what the theory claims are mainstream media or a book by a supporter of the theory if it is not self-published. These sources do not establish the theory is accepted, just that x says the theory is about y. It would be great if some academic were to write a peer-reviewed paper analyzing and debunking a fringe theory, but few academics would waste time doing that, and fewer peer-reviewed journals would publish it anyway. So non-academic sources are necessary to establish both notability and to give some explanation of the fringe theory. BTW, who or what are the "MSM"? Aarghdvaark (talk) 05:14, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
- The point you may be missing though is that this isn't enough to ensure that a particular fringe theory article can be written neutrally and without undue promotion: i.e it can fulfil WP:NPOV. That is the only reason it is desirable to have extra requirements on the sources. The previous wording about having a notable person having discussed it, doesn't ensure the article can be written neutrally. Remember that WP:FRINGE came from WP:NPOV.IRWolfie- (talk) 22:27, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, if the only sources are "weird", I would agree... but media sources are not "weird"... they are "mainstream" (even though they may occasionally report on the "weird"). They go towards establishing that a fringe theory is notable. Blueboar (talk) 14:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
NPOV is crucial to understanding why WP:FRINGE exists. It's where it originated from and what it extends. Note how the nutshell starts: "To maintain a neutral point of view ...". That is, the fringe guidelines exist solely for NPOV issues particular to fringe theories. If a fringe topic can not be treated neutrally because the sources don't exist which discuss it in a significant and serious manner etc then we shouldn't because we can't make the topic neutral based on the sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 00:09, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. The biggest problem with fringe topics is that their proponents say things like: "200 million Americans believe in astrology and only a few thousand scientists have ever said it's not true - so the neutral point of view is to say that it's true"...and indeed 31% of Americans do so believe (!), 90% of them know their star sign - and yet there are only 3,000 practicing astronomers in the US to tell them it's B.S. I'm sure there are vastly more astrology books and articles out there that say that it's true than that it's false - astronomy textbooks rarely mention the matter at all. If Wikipedia took a "democratic" view of WP:NPOV/WP:WEIGHT - then the astrology-nuts would be right, and our astrology article would have to say that astrology is absolutely true - and give very little weight indeed to the scientific perspective. However WP:FRINGE has been given the mandate by the ARB and his holyness, Mr Wales, to specify that in cases where mainstream scientific theory says 'X' and a bunch of other people say 'Y', then 'X' is the neutral position and where the weight belongs - and therefore is the position that Wikipedia will take on the matter. That means that WP:FRINGE is strongly a matter of WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT - which is why NPOV must be brought into this discussion. If it were my decision, I'd take the entire set of WP:FRINGE guidelines and place them front-and-center in the WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT guidelines - rather than being tucked away in this somewhat darker corner. SteveBaker (talk) 12:27, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
- "in cases where mainstream scientific theory says 'X' and a bunch of other people say 'Y', then 'X' is the neutral position and where the weight belongs - and therefore is the position that Wikipedia will take on the matter."... not quite. Yes, X is where the weight belongs, but X is not the "neutral position"... the neutral position is "Mainstream science says X, but the fringe says Y". Blueboar (talk) 12:50, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. But the point here is that modification/clarification of the WP:NPOV guideline is a key part of WP:FRINGE. SteveBaker (talk) 13:07, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
- "in cases where mainstream scientific theory says 'X' and a bunch of other people say 'Y', then 'X' is the neutral position and where the weight belongs - and therefore is the position that Wikipedia will take on the matter."... not quite. Yes, X is where the weight belongs, but X is not the "neutral position"... the neutral position is "Mainstream science says X, but the fringe says Y". Blueboar (talk) 12:50, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Theory --> Subject
I made this change for the purposes of including organizations, publications, etc, under the fringe notability section rather than just theories but I don't feel it goes far enough in clarifying my point. How do people feel about clarifying further by specifying that it includes companies, organizations, publications, products, etc? Should we include an exhaustive list or clarify in a different way? Alternatively, are there objections to the change in the first place? Sædontalk 00:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think that's appropriate. This policy should apply to whether a fringe-view-promoting organization is mentioned in other articles. However, the existence of articles on organizations promoting fringe views will still fall under the purview of WP:ORG. I've changed 'subject' to 'view' as I think that reads better and still retains the meaning, but feel free to edit as you see fit. LK (talk) 04:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- I made a slight addition specifying organizations because I felt "view" has the same non-encompassing issue as "theory" or "subject." I don't think there will be any tension with WP:ORG, I would just like to clarify the scope of WP:FRINGE. How does it look now? Can it be interpreted to refer to products at this point as well or is anything further necessary? Sædontalk 04:26, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think the guideline is typically used to refer to fringe subjects or views in general, so the change makes sense. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- WP:Notability usually uses the word topic (the topic of the article, which might be a person, place, theory, philosophy, etc.) ... so perhaps we should use that word when discussing notability... "Fringe topic". Blueboar (talk) 13:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- That sounds good too. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah - "topic" works best for me. I agree that "theory" is too overloaded with the common English meaning and the special scientific meaning. SteveBaker (talk) 18:53, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- That sounds good too. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- WP:Notability usually uses the word topic (the topic of the article, which might be a person, place, theory, philosophy, etc.) ... so perhaps we should use that word when discussing notability... "Fringe topic". Blueboar (talk) 13:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- The current changes are perhaps more confusing at the moment: "Fringe views and the organizations who promote them can be considered notable enough for dedicated articles if ..." might make people conclude that if a fringe view is notable then an organization promoting them is notable. IRWolfie- (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think we might have to take it to the village pump to make this change to WP:FRINGE to ensure the consensus is with us? IRWolfie- (talk) 11:18, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
- I've a similarly related proposal. How about renaming the guideline from Fringe Theories, to just Fringe? IRWolfie- (talk) 17:11, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
- Fringe on its own is a wide term, it would include e.g. fringe theatre. Aarghdvaark (talk) 03:10, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
- The guideline is usually referred to by WP:FRINGE, and it has never been mistaken for fringe theatre that I have seen. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:58, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
- I think people understand that something that starts with WP: and is in all-caps is a shortcut to some kind of policy/guideline doc. WP:FRINGE isn't confusing - but WP:Fringe might be confusing. I wouldn't be averse to renaming it "WP:Fringe articles" or "WP:Fringe topics". SteveBaker (talk) 19:01, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
- "WP:Fringe theories" tells the reader what it is about and I don't see the need for a change. I do agree that in the guidelines we should use "Fringe topics" to cover fringe theories and all the related stuff (fringe views, people and organizations). But I think if we go for "WP:Fringe articles" or whatever we are staking a claim to the word fringe that is not in common use - because we are editing on this page, "fringe" probably does mean fringe theories to us, but I don't think it will for everyone. Aarghdvaark (talk) 02:40, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
- I think people understand that something that starts with WP: and is in all-caps is a shortcut to some kind of policy/guideline doc. WP:FRINGE isn't confusing - but WP:Fringe might be confusing. I wouldn't be averse to renaming it "WP:Fringe articles" or "WP:Fringe topics". SteveBaker (talk) 19:01, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
- The guideline is usually referred to by WP:FRINGE, and it has never been mistaken for fringe theatre that I have seen. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:58, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
- Fringe on its own is a wide term, it would include e.g. fringe theatre. Aarghdvaark (talk) 03:10, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
You seem to have missed that "Fringe theories" is misleading (that's what the discussion is about). The use of the phrase Fringe topic/article is already in wide use, and everyone knows what it means; I have never seen anyone confused about this. Quite frankly if someone thinks it's about fringe theatre when they click on it they are an idiot and no wording will help them. We assume some basic level of competence on wikipedia. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:56, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
- I don't understand why you think "Fringe theory" is misleading? It is in common use after all. It is the (fringe) theory that is usually the main point after all. If you talk about "Fringe article" and then "Fringe organization" why would you expect people to think of theories and not political organizations? Aarghdvaark (talk) 17:04, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Help with guidelines
I refer to this deletion discussion. I'm wondering if the people who monitor these guidelines would be inclined to expand the section on notability to include people who espouse pseudoscience and fringe theories, not just the theories themselves. It would have been useful in the aforementioned case to know whether the consensus was that astrological journals were unreliable sources for the purposes of establishing the notability of an astrologer (perhaps on the ground that they are in a sense not independent because they spring from a community of people who agree with the pseudoscience) or whether such sources are suitable. I'm sure there are other questions that could be answered about the notability of people who espouse fringe theories and pseudoscience. Apologies in advance if this has already been debated and rejected. --Batard0 (talk) 18:25, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- The recent clarification proposed by Saedon already incorporated this into the guideline. "A Fringe subject (a fringe theory, organization or aspect of a fringe theory) ", maybe it needs to be made clearer still. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:11, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia guidelines are byzantine almost beyond comprehension, but I don't understand how IRWolfie can change them to suit a special purpose (in this case apparently to remove the Deborah Houlding article). Suddenly, today, without discussion, WP:FRINGE theories (or subjects) covers people too.
- IRWolfie's version now says: "A 'Fringe subject' is an article where a significant claim to notability revolves around the relation of the article to the fringe theory. This includes the organizations, people, concepts or aspects of a fringe theory, and the fringe theory itself." This doesn't even make sense. How can an "subject" be a "article"? How can "claim to notability" be made on the basis of its fringe status? IRWolfie tries to spread the presumed contamination from the despised theory to all related "organizations, people, concepts or aspects of the fringe theory, and the fringe theory itself." I suppose this covers all conceivable bases, unless IRWolfie wants to add something else? Is Wikipedia just collapsing in a heap of babble rules?
- To me, astrology is not fringe, but even if it is, what's wrong with that? It doesn't need to be censored. There is a large gap between scientific cosmology and genetics that just happens to be currently occupied by astrology. It's an odd area of study and discipline, but so what? Wikipedia has decided that astrology is a pseudoscience, even though philosophers don't agree that there is anything that can be called pseudoscience (see Demarcation Problem). That decision is Wikipedia's business. But that is something apart from fringe or gap studies. Logical positivists like IRWolfie cannot tolerate anything but deductive reasoning based on established beliefs. Without inductive reasoning, science and knowledge cannot grow and bridge the gaps. There is a literature on this. There are organizations and there are leaders who are well known and astrology spans centuries of culture, belief, and philsophy, including the present day. The presentations, theories, and controversies regarding astrology, or any fringe or gap discipline, are of interest to special researchers and should be part of Wikipedia as it would be part of any informed thought. Ken McRitchie (talk) 02:03, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- I haven't changed them to suit the AfD. I quoted the old version in the AfD. I suggest you look at the previous wording to see that I have not added anything new beyond a clarification. Most of your complaint is a complaint against WP:FRINGE in general. I've ignored your irrelevant soap boxing. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is a clearer guideline and is much appreciated. Thanks for that. Was there a consensus around the modification, though? I'm not clear on that. It seems there ought to be a debate about such a significant change. I think it's a good one, but it's major enough (it brings people under notability restrictions that formerly applied only to their theories) that it probably should be discussed first. I would be in favor of it. --Batard0 (talk) 09:26, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- I haven't changed them to suit the AfD. I quoted the old version in the AfD. I suggest you look at the previous wording to see that I have not added anything new beyond a clarification. Most of your complaint is a complaint against WP:FRINGE in general. I've ignored your irrelevant soap boxing. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- To me, astrology is not fringe, but even if it is, what's wrong with that? It doesn't need to be censored. There is a large gap between scientific cosmology and genetics that just happens to be currently occupied by astrology. It's an odd area of study and discipline, but so what? Wikipedia has decided that astrology is a pseudoscience, even though philosophers don't agree that there is anything that can be called pseudoscience (see Demarcation Problem). That decision is Wikipedia's business. But that is something apart from fringe or gap studies. Logical positivists like IRWolfie cannot tolerate anything but deductive reasoning based on established beliefs. Without inductive reasoning, science and knowledge cannot grow and bridge the gaps. There is a literature on this. There are organizations and there are leaders who are well known and astrology spans centuries of culture, belief, and philsophy, including the present day. The presentations, theories, and controversies regarding astrology, or any fringe or gap discipline, are of interest to special researchers and should be part of Wikipedia as it would be part of any informed thought. Ken McRitchie (talk) 02:03, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes, it is a significant change, and no, it has not been subject to proper debate. I am going to undo this amendment and ask that is not reinstated until the implications have been properly considered and discussed in full. It is of concern that this editor avoids seeking proper consensus on such an important matter, but changes the wording of the policy to broaden its remit to biographies at a time when he is locked in debates (see this, this and this) about whether these policies should apply to biography pages he has personally put up for deletion. There are two important points to consider, and like Batard0 I believe this matter is consequential enough to deserve a proper request for discussion and broader Wikipedia input.
The first concern is that this policy is intended to serve a purpose; that purpose being that WP content maintains due weight and does not present fringe theories as if they hold up against mainstream knowledge. Its purpose is not to ensure that anyone who has notability by association with a fringe subject is enforced to submit to more restrictive notability guidelines than those who are notable for other reasons. Notability is notability, and is not wholly dependent on mainstream academic publications, which are the only 'reliable' sources that IRWolfie seems to want to allow. Indeed, notoriety can be a source of notability, as can popular attention drawn to trivial things that academic sources have no reason or interest in commenting upon.
Another serious concern is that, far from clarifying the principles, this amendment will generate an incredible amount of confusion and dissatisfaction amongst editors who will have no idea which policies on notability apply to authors and creative professionals whose work holds associations with fringe subjects. Many editors have recently expressed strong disagreement with IRWolfie's interpretation of policies in his deletion proposal requests, pointing out that biographies of persons do not essentially fall under the guidelines for Fringe theories as he insists, so long as only straightforward biographical information is given, which does not give undue weight to their views and beliefs (which obviously would fall under this policy). The correct notability guideline to apply in this instance is that which relates to the biographies creative professionals (see WP:author) which does not require significant in-depth attention from mainstream publications, but only that:
- The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors.
- The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique.
- The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews.
- The person's work either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums.
IRWolfie can come across to other editors as being "a bit overzealous at identifying sources as "fringe", and currently he is not gaining consensus for the interpretation of policy that he makes. For him to alter the wording of those policies without full discussion at the time that are being discussed and debated by others who disagree with him is quite inappropriate. Logical 1 (talk) 16:22, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- You've undone edits from a month ago and several before the AfD for which there already is a consensus, and you think this is all to do with one article? Excuse me if I ignore an argument which is based on attacking me, especially considering I didn't propose either clarification in the first place. Astrology is a fringe pseudoscience. Astrology sources are fringe sources, it is black and white. Your opinions about what this guideline is for are built on foundations of sand since you've only made 31 edits, only 6 to an article. NPOV does have an impact on the existence of articles, this is well established. FRINGE also has an impact on existence, also well established. If an article can not be represented neutrally, we don't have it. To be neutral that means giving due deference to the mainstream without resorting to original research. This guideline precisely does add harder notability requirements, and has done so for several years, since it first came into existence. For some reason You have reverted my placing of the different notability paragraphs together into one section for easy access (amongst other small edits). IRWolfie- (talk) 19:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- I owe IRW an apology... My concern was with the paragraph "A Fringe subject (a fringe theory, organization or aspect of a fringe theory) is considered notable enough ... or during "slow news days". (See junk food news and silly season)." It looked at first glance as if he was repeatedly removing that paragraph... but I now see that the paragraph in question was not actually removed (it is there in both versions being edit warred over, however it is placed in different locations in each version). I have self-reverted my revert.
- That said... may I ask all involved to discuss rather than revert war. Blueboar (talk) 20:08, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict)"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun." This is the eternal path of fringe advocates on Wikipedia - lose the content argument, maybe get topic banned, then move on to agitating for friendlier content policies. I have seen it happen before with numerous flavors of charlatanry. "Logical" 1's objections seem primarily based on his antipathy to IRWolfie and not on substantive disagreement with the material. I really don't see any substantial change proposed to the policy, and the paragraph is preserved before and after. Skinwalker (talk) 19:48, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
I've nominated this page for deletion. It seems to me this is a hoax with respect to the article's content. Created by a WP:SPA, it sat in mainspace for two years. Someone added it to Category:Pseudoscience and Category:Types of scientific fallacy, which is how I found it; it's not liked from any articles. Tijfo098 (talk) 19:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Theory --> Topic -->Subject etc
Given this revert, we obviously need to discuss this further.
Correct me if I misunderstand the dispute, but I think the objection is centered on the fact that a person who is known for advocating a Fringe Theory can be notable for other things, things that have nothing to do with their advocacy. I would agree with this.
The flip side is that a notable person's advocacy can be trivial to a person's notability, and mentioning a person's advocacy in their bio article can give the theory Undue Weight. Also advocacy of a fringe theory by a notable person does not guarantee that the theory is notable. I would agree with this as well.
does this sum up the issue... or am I misinterpreting the dispute? Blueboar (talk) 17:58, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Logical 1 is wrong in their comment here [8]. Fringe theory guidelines apply to -any- place a fringe theory is even mentioned, and always has. If a persons notability is attached to their adherence to a fringe theory, then the notability should be judged with this guideline as well. For the reason of advocacy being a minor detail I have already clarified this with " a significant claim" to notability being related to the fringe theory. There is nothing new here; if neutrality can not be achieved in any article because of a lack of sources, we remove the article on NPOV grounds alone (this happens).
- I think it is also fair to reflect on the intentions of Logical 1 here; Logical 1 is an astrologer, with 6 edits to articles, who has not tried to engage on this page in the last 3 days, but instead did a drive by revert when I re-inserted the text. She wishes to hold the guideline hostage because she finds it disagreeable since it applies to her belief system. The editor is mistaken about their interpretation of FRINGE and is merely wikilaywering with an obvious misunderstanding of policies e.g "WP:BIO is the place where person related policies are determine" is clearly wrong. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:29, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Often the only sources to demonstrate notability of a fringe advocate are in-universe and/or promotional. Articles about homeopaths are a prime example; see Paul_Herscu - or take almost any article in [9] at random. I have not found much success in addressing these at AFD. I think IRWolfie's formulation is a good step towards clarifying this problem. Skinwalker (talk) 18:51, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- IRWolfie, I would appreciate some clarification about the practical application of your proposed edit so I can better understand it. If a fringe theorist is referenced extensively in the following national publications, which in your view are likely to count towards notability:
- A women’s fashion magazine?
- An article in a tabloid newspaper or sensational magazine like the National Inquirer?
- An article in a major publication that is light hearted (i.e. not serious)?
- A television or radio program that carries a for "entertainment only" disclaimer?
- A specialist TV channel that carries interviews with fringe theorists (not advertorials)?
- A magazine that publishes fringe articles in a broad sense i.e. not specifically related to the field of the fringe theorist?
- A book that is not self-published nor on a fringe topic nor written by a fringe theorist?
- IRWolfie, I would appreciate some clarification about the practical application of your proposed edit so I can better understand it. If a fringe theorist is referenced extensively in the following national publications, which in your view are likely to count towards notability:
- Often the only sources to demonstrate notability of a fringe advocate are in-universe and/or promotional. Articles about homeopaths are a prime example; see Paul_Herscu - or take almost any article in [9] at random. I have not found much success in addressing these at AFD. I think IRWolfie's formulation is a good step towards clarifying this problem. Skinwalker (talk) 18:51, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think it is also fair to reflect on the intentions of Logical 1 here; Logical 1 is an astrologer, with 6 edits to articles, who has not tried to engage on this page in the last 3 days, but instead did a drive by revert when I re-inserted the text. She wishes to hold the guideline hostage because she finds it disagreeable since it applies to her belief system. The editor is mistaken about their interpretation of FRINGE and is merely wikilaywering with an obvious misunderstanding of policies e.g "WP:BIO is the place where person related policies are determine" is clearly wrong. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:29, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for the opportunity to elaborate Blueboar. I have been wanting to come back and respond to earlier posts but needed time to do so. There is relevance in what you say but there are other points to consider too.
- First of all, can I clarify that discussion on the wording of WP:Fringe should take place here, on this talk page, as it states in the notice box at the top of the page? IRWolfie has suggested that it should take place on the talk page of Fringe theories notice board, which might be a good place to attract attention, but does not seem to be the place to determine consensus regarding word changes to this project page.
- The title of this page makes a clear enough statement on where its remit extends: theories and ideas. The guidelines ensure we don't give promotion to ideas that are not supported by the mainstream academic or scientific community, which does not prevent Wikipedia from reporting on the details of fringe, so long as the contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints are made clear. We all agree on that.
- At the end of August Saedon began a series of bold edits which changed the historical references to 'fringe view' to read 'fringe view (or organizations)', as it reads now. IRWolfie wants to extend it further so that any biography can be defined as a 'fringe topic' if the person's notability involves a relation with a fringe theory.
- Where this becomes messy is in regard to what constitutes sufficient notability for a person's biography to be granted inclusion in Wikipedia. According to the policy implications of the proposed word change, it will not matter how prominent and influential someone might have been in their own fields, (even if those fields have millions of followers), nor whether their work has been instrumental in pioneering new concepts that have attracted a huge number of adherents. IRWolfie's insistence (given many times in deletion proposals) is that the proposed wording limits biographical inclusion to those whose work can be proven to have been referenced extensively, and in a serious and reliable manner, in at least one major (mainstream) publication that is fully independent of those who are interested or believe in the theory. This is not realistic or practical, especially for historical biographies where basic biographical information (such as dates and times of notable career impact) are only likely to be found in subject-related publications.
- IRWolfie has argued for a number of biography deletions on the basis that this page prohibits reference to them from subject-related publications. She was not successful in recent attempts; however arguments and edit-wars will continue unless the discussion is engaged in fully, and a reliable consensus achieved to bring the clarity of principle that Batard0 has asked for.
- In fact, I believe Batard0 has sought clarification in the wrong place. The policies that estblish the notability criteria for persons (any persons) are not determined here but at Wikipedia:Notability (people) WP:BIO. There are various ways in which a person is deemed to be notable, (defined as "worthy of notice" – that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded"). There is no prohibitive exclusion if someone's work has not been referenced extensively, and in a serious and reliable manner, in at least one major publication that is independent of those who are interested or believe in the theory. The criteria that applies to authors or 'creative professionals', for example is explained here.
- A person whose work lacks extensive and serious discussion in a major mainstream academic or scientific work can achieve notability if they are widely cited by their peers of successors; or if they are known for originating new concepts, or have had multiple independent periodical articles or review, or if they are widely recognised as having left an enduring historical record in his or her field WP:ANYBIO.
- Further, according to IRWolfie's insistence that this policy applies to persons and not just theories and ideas, she argues that even the most basic biographical information cannot come from subject-related publications. Why not? How does this endanger the interests of WP's undue weight concerns? The supposed logic is that no book which treats fringe subjects seriously can be considered a reliable source, or independent of the subject (if they treat it seriously they must be associated with it), therefore no reliable independent sources actually exist for a fringe topic, or for any person who becomes notable through their association with it.
- My argument in no way dilutes the applicability of WP's fringe theory policy as IRWolfie has suggested. Within biographies of persons whose work is related to fringe subjects we need to tread carefully, apply these guidelines and ensure there is no undue weight. These policies only require that theories and beliefs are explained appropriately, without any sense of promotion or mainstream acceptance. Within the content of the biography fringe theory policy applies just as it does everywhere on WP. My argument is only that what determines sufficient notability for the inclusion of biographies on WP is not subject to the guidelines of this page (IRWolfies has argued it is). My position is that these guidelines instruct us on how to report the details of the theory, not the biographical details of a person who gains notability through their advocacy of it.
- If IRWolfie wants to change the policy that relates to the biographies of persons with connections to fringe, she should raise the matter for discussion at Wikipedia:Notability (people), so that we have one centralized place of reference, and don't cause everlasting edit wars by creating guidelines here that contradict the established policies that are clearly stated there. Logical 1 (talk) 01:08, 23 October 2012 (UTC)