Bogazicili (talk | contribs) →What is the recommended article length?: response and question |
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:::::::::Unless you're proposing a special wordcount just for FAs, I'd suggest making your case over at [[Wikipedia talk:Article size]]. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 21:28, 23 December 2020 (UTC) |
:::::::::Unless you're proposing a special wordcount just for FAs, I'd suggest making your case over at [[Wikipedia talk:Article size]]. [[User:Nikkimaria|Nikkimaria]] ([[User talk:Nikkimaria|talk]]) 21:28, 23 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Lol, thanks, so many talk pages...I wanted to get the opinions of editors who edit quality articles first. And also because [[Climate Change]] is going through FA review. What do you think of the suggestion? I might bring it to [[Wikipedia talk:Article size]] as well. Also what is a centralized page for discussions such as these, if there are any? [[User:Bogazicili|Bogazicili]] ([[User talk:Bogazicili|talk]]) 21:33, 23 December 2020 (UTC) |
::::::::::Lol, thanks, so many talk pages...I wanted to get the opinions of editors who edit quality articles first. And also because [[Climate Change]] is going through FA review. What do you think of the suggestion? I might bring it to [[Wikipedia talk:Article size]] as well. Also what is a centralized page for discussions such as these, if there are any? [[User:Bogazicili|Bogazicili]] ([[User talk:Bogazicili|talk]]) 21:33, 23 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::: {{u|Bogazicili}}, you have a manageable and professional article now at Climate change. If you expand beyond a readable summary style you will not only get an article that is unlikely to be maintained at FA standard over the long haul; you will also earn at least one '''Oppose''' (mine). And you will chase off a number of reviewers who recognize that readers aren't going to want to trudge through an article. Regardless if the Coords ignore Opposes on [[Wikipedia:Featured article criteria|crit. 4]] (It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail and uses [[WP:SS|summary style]], or if consensus on this article overrules that, you will have lost the chance to engage an informed reviewer, along with readers who are put off by a book-sized article. There are good reasons that WIAFA reflects consensus at [[WP:SIZE]].{{pb}} As to "polling readers", WMF already has data indicating that few readers read beyond the lead; why should we give them more reason to not read beyond the lead by trying to turn articles into text books? '''One of the elements of good writing is knowing what to leave out''' as much as what to put in. The proof that Climate change doesn't need to be a sprawling mess is apparent in the version already written.{{pb}} This is not a MOS-driven argument as Iri implies; it is about reader attention span and good writing. If our goal is to impress readers with every bit of data that interests professionals and researchers (and that they already know as they've read the texbooks), at the expense of an encyclopedic summary that engages all readers, doubling the size of the article would be a good way to achieve that goal. My interest remains engaging readers by respecting WIAFA. [[User:SandyGeorgia|'''Sandy'''<span style="color: green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 22:41, 23 December 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:41, 23 December 2020
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Request for clarification
2.c. consistent citations: where required by criterion 1c, consistently formatted inline citations using either footnotes (<ref>Smith 2007, p. 1.</ref>) or Harvard referencing (Smith 2007, p. 1)—see citing sources for suggestions on formatting references. The use of citation templates is not required.
Is this requirement for consistent formatting intended to imply that all citations in an article must either display full first names only, or all must display first name initials only, and that a combination of initials where provided by the source, and full first names where provided by the source is not acceptable?
I have just finished reading through the archives of this talk page, and cannot find anything definitive. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 16:05, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- I would think that providing the names as they appear in the source is a consistent system. That isn't about formatting so much as honest representation, in the spirit of WP:SAYWHERE. --RL0919 (talk) 16:52, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
- An article looks polished when the citations are consistently formatted using the same scheme. Saying that, if a few sources didn't give full first names, I wouldn't say anything if we had a few initials in a sea of citations with full first name, while the reverse wouldn't be very polished. Imzadi 1979 → 02:56, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- There was a discussion on this very matter a year or two back, I'll try to find it. One person held that if just one source provided only initials, then all of the other sources must be altered to also show only initials.
- My own view is that you should give the credit according to what the source actually says, omitting any titles or honorifics. That said, if I have two books which are definitely written by the same person, and one is credited to "J. Smith" and the other to "John Smith", I will use
|first=John
|last=Smith
for both of them. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:11, 16 December 2017 (UTC)- These suggestions appear entirely reasonable to me. The incident for which I am trying to find guidance is exactly as Redrose64 describes, where one reviewer contends that all sources must be either initials only, or full names only, which implies that if only initials are available for a single case, the entire list must be altered to be initials only. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 13:15, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- I concern myself first with the reliablity of sources used. Then with making sure the same information is presented in the references. At some point, however, if we start demanding consistency in this form, we're descending into madness. As long as the references all contain author information and it's all either "first last" or "last first", we should not care if they are all initials or all first names. We should use what the source itself uses - which abides by WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT, which has always struck me as a good general guideline to follow. Do what the sources do as far as providing information. Thus, I don't insist that ISBNs be provided for all references, if some sources predate the ISBN system. Same for how the names are presented for authors - go with what the source uses. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:38, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- As per Ealdgyth and Redrose. Not least, there are US v. UK variations in this (the UK tradition being to use initials, the US to use full first names), which mainstream academia has no problem with (you follow the way it was presented in the original publication). It can be very hard, in fact, to identify the first name associated with some UK published works, particularly if the writer was not well known. Hchc2009 (talk) 14:15, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- This is the kind of decision we ought to leave to the writers. Insisting on consistency would mean that all citations would have to use initials if the full name of just one author was unknown. SarahSV (talk) 17:04, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Raul654, SandyGeorgia, Ian Rose, and Sarastro1: If any of you who have experience in closing FACs would like to comment, it would be appreciated. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 08:56, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- The most important principle here is that inline citations must be unambiguous. If the article cites two books by the same author, then the inline citations must explicitly call out the title of the book being referenced; if there's two authors cited by an article who have the same last name/initials, the article should cite them by their full names.
- Beyond that, I'd support either (1) citing authors using whatever names that they publish under, or (2) citing them by their full names, as long as we are consist about it within an article. Raul654 (talk) 18:10, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Raul654, SandyGeorgia, Ian Rose, and Sarastro1: If any of you who have experience in closing FACs would like to comment, it would be appreciated. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 08:56, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
- An article looks polished when the citations are consistently formatted using the same scheme. Saying that, if a few sources didn't give full first names, I wouldn't say anything if we had a few initials in a sea of citations with full first name, while the reverse wouldn't be very polished. Imzadi 1979 → 02:56, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
I have a different question about this requirement. Is it a requirement to use Harvard-style or shortened footnotes? I've seen a number of FAs with regular citation templates--is that allowed? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:53, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
- No specific system for formatting the references is required. If you want to use Harvard refs, that's fine (I like them myself), but if you prefer full citations, that's fine also. Templates can be used or not, as you prefer. Just be consistent with what you do -- for example, don't use "Cite book" some of the time and "Citation" other times in the same article. --RL0919 (talk) 22:16, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:27, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Obviously, a featured article that cites A. A. Milne, C. S. Lewis, or J. R. R. Tolkien has to be very short because it can’t cite anyone else. And you’re not allowed to cite Dr. Suess at all.
Kidding. The requirement in WP:FACR is “consistently formatted inline citations” and refers to WP:CITE for suggestions, which spells it out in the section WP:CITESTYLE. That entire long guideline says nothing about full names or initials, and makes it clear that citations’ content is variable, listing what we try to include in a “typical” citation, and details that may be added “as necessary.”
Written content, including references, is distinct from citation format. An author’s name is their own, and we should use it as they did their published works to 1. make them easy for our readers to find and WP:VERIFY, and 2. to respect their self-identification (see also WP:NCBIO and WP:LIVE).
To compare a professional style guide’s advice, the CMoS says “Authors’ names are normally given as they appear with the source itself,” but “certain adjustments, however, may be made to assist correct identification” (14.73), and “For authors who always use initials, full names should not be supplied” (14.74).
If article and reference content starts being modified or removed to serve format, then we are failing the encyclopedia’s readers. —Michael Z. 20:34, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Question about high quality reliable sources
There have been repeated discussions on the climate change article about what constitutes a high quality reliable source. The issue resolves around the public websites of organisations like NASA and WHO, which are not dated and don't have an author. To me it seems that not knowing how recent information is, when scientific thinking is still developing, is a strong mark against using these reliable sources, and that peer-reviewed secondary sources would be better. On the other hand, NASA and WHO are the ultimate authorities on their respective topics. Would you guys consider those sources high quality? Femke Nijsse (talk) 07:52, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Femke Nijsse, sourcing quality is highly context-specific, so it would depend on what was being used to source what. For example, WHO would certainly be the ultimate authority on their own policies, but other sources may offer critiques of those policies. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- I understand it's very context specific. The contact seems to be re-occurring: using the public website (so not their scientific reports) of these organisations for scientific findings. For instance, the estimation of the amount of people dying from air pollution. As these estimates vary over time and it's unclear how often the website is updated, my instinct would be that these websites are not the best source we can find. Femke Nijsse (talk) 13:01, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Categorization
I find it a little odd that the FA criteria doesn't mention anything about categorization. At a number of GA reviews I've done, I've noted where categorization was incorrect, lacking, or failed WP:CATV. I was surprised when one of the nominators remarked that they hadn't really looked at the categories, as they weren't part of the FA or GA criteria. In fact, neither WP:FACR nor WP:GACR mentions anything about categories. And frankly, as much as everything associated with FAC is nitpicky in some ways, it seems weird not to explicitly mention quality of categorization in the criteria. It's obviously WP:Instruction creep to include a new letter-level statement for categories, but maybe add in some wording somewhere in one of the other line-items that categorization should be of high-quality, too? Hog Farm Bacon 16:13, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, this is a weakness, & the cats are not infrequently poorly done. Johnbod (talk) 01:30, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
RFC: Does following style guidelines on consistent citations mean consistent inclusion of “place of publication”?
I hope to resolve an editing disagreement. It’s about FA criterion 2.c., which says that a featured article:
follows the style guidelines, including . . . consistent citations: where required by criterion 1c, consistently formatted inline citations using footnotes (<ref>Smith 2007, p. 1</ref>)—see citing sources for suggestions on formatting references. Citation templates are not required.
Does this mean that every citation in an FA must either include the place of publication, or else every one must omit it? —Michael Z. 21:03, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- The requirement is consistency, but at a slightly more granular level than suggested by the question asked. An author could choose to include publication location for magazines but not for books, or for newspapers only when the location is not in the title, for example. There should be a clearly identifiable "rule" of when to include or not, but that "rule" can be more nuanced than "every single citation in this article must include a publication location". Nikkimaria (talk) 22:22, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- An WP:RFC is a neutral dispute-resolution mechanism. You’re not supposed to swoop in and set the tone with a proposal favouring your view and ignoring all my concerns. Furthermore, the position you’re advocating is nothing like your arguments at User talk:Nikkimaria#Place of publication to disallow adding any publications locations in the article Winnipeg at all. I call bad faith. —Michael Z. 03:34, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- I disagree, on all points. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:41, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Where is the “clearly identifiable ‘rule’” for the article Winnipeg? Who made you the appointed “author” that decides no place of publication shall appear there? Which guidelines or consensus are the source of this idea that is not mentioned anywhere? —Michael Z. 14:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- As you note, that article does not include place of publication at all; that has been the established style for years. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:24, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- Where is the “clearly identifiable ‘rule’” for the article Winnipeg? Who made you the appointed “author” that decides no place of publication shall appear there? Which guidelines or consensus are the source of this idea that is not mentioned anywhere? —Michael Z. 14:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- I disagree, on all points. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:41, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- An WP:RFC is a neutral dispute-resolution mechanism. You’re not supposed to swoop in and set the tone with a proposal favouring your view and ignoring all my concerns. Furthermore, the position you’re advocating is nothing like your arguments at User talk:Nikkimaria#Place of publication to disallow adding any publications locations in the article Winnipeg at all. I call bad faith. —Michael Z. 03:34, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- What Nikkimaria just said. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:43, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Nikkimaria's interpretation. — Wug·a·po·des 22:48, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree but would add that in those rare cases where a location is simply unavailable, that should not force the removal of all locations on citations of that type. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:52, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- The MOS provides a rationale for locations for books in WP:BIBLIOGRAPHY: When you provide an ISBN for an edition, complement this with the precise publication details: this will help point out exactly what the ISBN denotes, and so for example a reader in the US will not waste time searching for an edition restricted to the British market. It used to be that foreign editions were unavailable in the US due to copyright restrictions, but these were struck down by a court decision, Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley & Sons, Inc., in 2013. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:01, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
- Agree with Nikkimaria - nowadays many books are published simultaeneously in eg London and New York anyway, & the ISBN makes books much easier to find. Johnbod (talk) 01:28, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- The relevant part of the CITE guideline is WP:CITEHOW. It suggests when to include location. SarahSV (talk) 01:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
- I also agree with Nikkimaria's position and it's my impression that most FA source reviews are conducted this way already. (t · c) buidhe 10:37, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
What is the recommended article length?
Wikipedia:Article size mentions 10,000 words, but I looked at Barack Obama (via [1]) and it's more than 15,000 words. I am asking, since we are discussing article length on Climate Change. I think for a big issue such as climate change, 15k should still be acceptable for FA status, similar to Obama's article? Bogazicili (talk) 14:43, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think either of them should pass 8,500 words. I explain why at User:SandyGeorgia/Achieving excellence through featured content. (You're just buying yourself an interminable unmanageable headache, while giving our readers something so long they will never read it.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:48, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- I think most people would just read the lead and few specific sections anyway, even at 8500 words. I guess the word count is a suggestion and not an absolute limit for FA articles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bogazicili (talk • contribs) 14:52, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Right; you'll find plenty of reviewers willing to pass WP:SIZE, and plenty who disagree with me. You'll find few that have been around for 15 years to see what eventually becomes of articles that size :) I will never support an article that size. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:55, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Lol, but Climate Change is not Brie_Larson, so it should depend on the topic too I think.Bogazicili (talk) 14:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- The size limit is more important for our core articles.
- For the reader, who will not spend more time reading an article just because it's longer, and will miss important information if there is too much cruft.
- For the updater-type editor, who will have to maintain a lot of information on the top and all the sub-articles
- and for the review-type editor, who needs to verify more information than they can cope with. Half of our article on climate change needs updating around every 5 years, and with the current length + my massive time investment that's barely doable.
- I think the Barack Obama article has moved quite far from FA standards, with issues like length and WP:PROSELINE. Femke Nijsse (talk) 16:49, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Onama has probably never been at standard, but taking it to FAR doesn’t work ... the example of success on size I give in my essay is Islam ... it did fine when trim, but went all to heck when allowed to grow beyond very strict summary style. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:30, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Summary style isn't always appropriate for every topic. For some topics, particularly visual arts articles, it's more of a service to the reader to have everything in one place so they can compare-and-contrast at a glance rather than skipping between articles, even if it breaks every part of the MOS. One also needs to consider that we're writing for the benefit of readers, not for the benefit of the MOS; not all readers are going to be reading online, and "for more information see [[Subarticle]] is no use if one's reading a printout or a mirror page, or if the subarticle isn't included on the limited-article-set WP:IIAB installaton that reader happens to be using. (I won't repeat the whole thing here, but do a ctrl-f on my talk page for "We're not print" to see more of my thinking on this issue. The TL;DR summary is that I'd rather write a useful article that doesn't meet WIAFA than one that passes FAC but is less of a service to readers.) ‑ Iridescent 18:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- I have been editing Climate Change article for a few months now, and I have concentrated on certain sections. I still haven't read the entire article! Even at less than 10k words, I really doubt readers read the entire article (I wish if we could poll readers on Wikipedia). So I'd place more emphasis on lead and completeness, within certain limits. So 10k limit is a suggestion. Can we also add a flexibility range on that, depending on the topic? Like 20% for example (8k-12k word count range)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bogazicili (talk • contribs) 21:22, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- Unless you're proposing a special wordcount just for FAs, I'd suggest making your case over at Wikipedia talk:Article size. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:28, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- Lol, thanks, so many talk pages...I wanted to get the opinions of editors who edit quality articles first. And also because Climate Change is going through FA review. What do you think of the suggestion? I might bring it to Wikipedia talk:Article size as well. Also what is a centralized page for discussions such as these, if there are any? Bogazicili (talk) 21:33, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- Bogazicili, you have a manageable and professional article now at Climate change. If you expand beyond a readable summary style you will not only get an article that is unlikely to be maintained at FA standard over the long haul; you will also earn at least one Oppose (mine). And you will chase off a number of reviewers who recognize that readers aren't going to want to trudge through an article. Regardless if the Coords ignore Opposes on crit. 4 (It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail and uses summary style, or if consensus on this article overrules that, you will have lost the chance to engage an informed reviewer, along with readers who are put off by a book-sized article. There are good reasons that WIAFA reflects consensus at WP:SIZE. As to "polling readers", WMF already has data indicating that few readers read beyond the lead; why should we give them more reason to not read beyond the lead by trying to turn articles into text books? One of the elements of good writing is knowing what to leave out as much as what to put in. The proof that Climate change doesn't need to be a sprawling mess is apparent in the version already written. This is not a MOS-driven argument as Iri implies; it is about reader attention span and good writing. If our goal is to impress readers with every bit of data that interests professionals and researchers (and that they already know as they've read the texbooks), at the expense of an encyclopedic summary that engages all readers, doubling the size of the article would be a good way to achieve that goal. My interest remains engaging readers by respecting WIAFA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:41, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- Lol, thanks, so many talk pages...I wanted to get the opinions of editors who edit quality articles first. And also because Climate Change is going through FA review. What do you think of the suggestion? I might bring it to Wikipedia talk:Article size as well. Also what is a centralized page for discussions such as these, if there are any? Bogazicili (talk) 21:33, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- Unless you're proposing a special wordcount just for FAs, I'd suggest making your case over at Wikipedia talk:Article size. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:28, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- I have been editing Climate Change article for a few months now, and I have concentrated on certain sections. I still haven't read the entire article! Even at less than 10k words, I really doubt readers read the entire article (I wish if we could poll readers on Wikipedia). So I'd place more emphasis on lead and completeness, within certain limits. So 10k limit is a suggestion. Can we also add a flexibility range on that, depending on the topic? Like 20% for example (8k-12k word count range)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bogazicili (talk • contribs) 21:22, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- Summary style isn't always appropriate for every topic. For some topics, particularly visual arts articles, it's more of a service to the reader to have everything in one place so they can compare-and-contrast at a glance rather than skipping between articles, even if it breaks every part of the MOS. One also needs to consider that we're writing for the benefit of readers, not for the benefit of the MOS; not all readers are going to be reading online, and "for more information see [[Subarticle]] is no use if one's reading a printout or a mirror page, or if the subarticle isn't included on the limited-article-set WP:IIAB installaton that reader happens to be using. (I won't repeat the whole thing here, but do a ctrl-f on my talk page for "We're not print" to see more of my thinking on this issue. The TL;DR summary is that I'd rather write a useful article that doesn't meet WIAFA than one that passes FAC but is less of a service to readers.) ‑ Iridescent 18:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Onama has probably never been at standard, but taking it to FAR doesn’t work ... the example of success on size I give in my essay is Islam ... it did fine when trim, but went all to heck when allowed to grow beyond very strict summary style. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:30, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- The size limit is more important for our core articles.
- Lol, but Climate Change is not Brie_Larson, so it should depend on the topic too I think.Bogazicili (talk) 14:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Right; you'll find plenty of reviewers willing to pass WP:SIZE, and plenty who disagree with me. You'll find few that have been around for 15 years to see what eventually becomes of articles that size :) I will never support an article that size. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:55, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- I think most people would just read the lead and few specific sections anyway, even at 8500 words. I guess the word count is a suggestion and not an absolute limit for FA articles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bogazicili (talk • contribs) 14:52, 22 December 2020 (UTC)