→Removal of T1 redux: +comment |
Chaser (away) (talk | contribs) →Removal of T1 redux: refactoring |
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Additionally: The associated templates will be nominated at [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion]], and [[MediaWiki:Deletereason-dropdown]] will be modified to once more remove T1. |
Additionally: The associated templates will be nominated at [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion]], and [[MediaWiki:Deletereason-dropdown]] will be modified to once more remove T1. |
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I'm opening a straw poll here, and I invite you to express your support or opposition and bring any arguments I may not have considered. [[User:Dcoetzee|Dcoetzee]] 03:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
I'm opening a straw poll here, and I invite you to express your support or opposition to T1 and bring any arguments I may not have considered. [[User:Dcoetzee|Dcoetzee]] 03:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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* ''' |
* '''Oppose T1''' as proposer. [[User:Dcoetzee|Dcoetzee]] 03:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:You rock. Thanks for addressing my concerns. Cheers =) --[[User:Slakr|<span style="color:teal;font-weight:bold;">slakr</span>]]<small><sup>\ [[User talk:Slakr|talk]] /</sup></small> 03:54, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
:You rock. Thanks for addressing my concerns. Cheers =) --[[User:Slakr|<span style="color:teal;font-weight:bold;">slakr</span>]]<small><sup>\ [[User talk:Slakr|talk]] /</sup></small> 03:54, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:I refactored the above to make it more intuitive. Now opposing means opposing T1, instead of opposing it's abolition.--[[User:Chaser away|chaser (away)]] - [[User_talk:Chaser|talk]] 04:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:11, 27 January 2009
Why is WP:CSD#A1 restricted to very short articles?
I occasionally look through the speedy deletion category looking to rescuing articles that deserve more consideration, but I sometimes come up against articles where, in respecting policy, I have to remove WP:CSD#A1 tags from articles that have no context but are not "very short" as required by the criterion. I don't see any reason why articles of any length that fail to provide sufficient context to identify the subject of the article shouldn't be speedily deleted. Can anyone justify the "very short" get-out? I've also noticed that the inclusion of this wording means that many new page patrollers concentrate on the "very short" aspect and tag under this criterion even if context is there - I mean articles such as "AAA is a village in BBB" or "CCC is a book by DDD". Removing the "very short" would make it clearer that context is the important part of this criterion, not article length. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree. It should be the lack of context that is important, not the length. FlyingToaster 23:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- Don't quite agree with the first part of the logic (an article of decent length should be long enough for you to figure out what it's about with or without overt context), but you're spot on for the second bit. Removing the text should avoid confusion. If there's no objection (which I doubt there will be much of) we can make the change in a few days or so. Cheers. lifebaka++ 02:30, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- If the article is more than a sentence or two, then it would have enough that you should be able to identify the subject. If you can't. then it is possibly wp:nonsense But make sure you know what WP:NONSENSE is before noming something as such. G1 is the category that gets the most abuse.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 02:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think Phil Bridger needs to give some examples of the kind of articles he means, just to show if its possible for a decent length article to have no context. Epbr123 (talk) 17:25, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- Either way, I support a change to the criteria. If an article has no context, it should be deleted for having no context, regardless of its length. How is "very short" defined, anyway? Epbr123 (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't have any examples to hand, but I have seen example of quite lengthy articles written about subjects that exist in some fictional universe or belief system whose subjects can't be identified because the context isn't provided, even though the language used is quite coherent, so they wouldn't qualify as patent nonsense. On thinking further I accept there are probably not enough of these cases to make speedy deletion necessary, but I still think that the wording of the criterion should be changed so that taggers concentrate on the lack of context rather than article length. It seems that many of our new page patrollers don't have the attention span to read past the first few words of a criterion, so the important part should be presented first. How about
Articles lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article. Example: "He is a funny man with a red car. He makes people laugh." Context is different from content, treated in A3, below. This will usually apply only to very short articles.
Phil Bridger (talk) 19:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Here's an example that I just came across of an article that isn't very short but provides no context. Phil Bridger (talk) 01:03, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, this article doesn't fit A1... just because you are not a Muslim and don't understand it doesn't mean that it doesn't tell you exactly what it is in reference for. It is instructions on how to Performing Hajj & Umrah---religious ceremonies. The article is, however, a how-to manual and thus should probably be AfD'd, but right now I don't have time to do so. But, this is the an example of why A1 doesn't work on long articles.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 01:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- But it doesn't tell us what "Ameen Aziz" is, which is supposedly the subject of the article. Phil Bridger (talk) 01:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, this article doesn't fit A1... just because you are not a Muslim and don't understand it doesn't mean that it doesn't tell you exactly what it is in reference for. It is instructions on how to Performing Hajj & Umrah---religious ceremonies. The article is, however, a how-to manual and thus should probably be AfD'd, but right now I don't have time to do so. But, this is the an example of why A1 doesn't work on long articles.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 01:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Here's a better example of what I mean. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
On thinking about this further I agree that speedy deletion should be restricted to very short articles, as people familar with the subject may be able to identify the context as they have done with my second example. I still think that the wording of the criterion should be changed to to empasize that context is the most important part, so if there are no objections I'll change the wording in the next day or two to
Articles lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article. Example: "He is a funny man with a red car. He makes people laugh." This applies only to very short articles. Context is different from content, treated in A3, below.
Phil Bridger (talk) 15:39, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- I like that. I only just looked at your second example, and found it quite easy to figure out who this was about (mostly because it was copied from wikiasite:degrassi:Marco Del Rossi). I'm sure that there are examples where an article that isn't very short won't allow identification of the subject, but they should be rare enough. --Amalthea 15:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- No objection from me to this new wording which makes no policy change but emphasizes the most important part of the criterion. Davewild (talk) 18:59, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
This is an "overall" comment and it sort of ties in to another topic in another area but they really do relate. Using the example of "He is a funny man with a red car. He makes people laugh" I get the concept and why it is used but if that were an article it would somewhat "identify the subject of the article" - it explains that the subject is a male who is funny, drives a red car and that people find him humorous. While that explanation may sound silly it is not too likely that an article would about be an un-named subject. Pretend for a moment that Dane Cook only says "Dane Cook is a funny man in Los Angeles. He makes people laugh." In which case the quesiton becomes an issue of notability more than simply a short article. How many different ways could that be dealt with? First, at least for me, I would try and find out who "Dane Cook" was. I may tag it with {{stub}} and ask for sources. If I could find none I might PROD or AFD, but if I was thinking of CSD than A1 would not come to mind but A7 would. The reason being is that the article clearly says that the subject of the article is a male who was funny, lived in L.A and who people found humorous. What the article would not do is "indicate why its subject is important or significant." (unless one feels that being a funny male living in L.A indicates importance or significance, which is possible) Now if it said "Dane Cook is the most popular stand-up comedian in Los Angeles. He makes people laugh." and I could not find any sources I might tag it {{hoax}} because the use of "most popular" does "indicate why its subject is important or significant" but no information to back it up could be found. CSD wise I might think G3 as a possible hoax. For "real world" - I do not remember the name of the subject but last year there was an AFD on an article that simply said something along th elines of "Subject is a singer and came in 18th in a contest". Even though the article did not "meet Wikipedia's standards for verifiability and notability" nor did it "document that the criterion is true" it was not deleted because of the Criteria for musicians and ensembles guideline, number 9, that says "Has won or placed in a major music competition." The guidelines may be secondary but it is clear that saying "subject is a singer" is not enough, but adding on info about the contest is. A one line article is short enough to fall under A1 but how often does a short article not "identify the subject"? Even saying the "subject is a singer" tells us what the subject is/does. So if an article has a subject almost any descriptive text will somewhat explain the subject. And that being the case than I think G3 or A7 would come into play. For an article to really meet A1 it would have to also be, somewhat, a G1. "Dane Cook" article with text that says only "Blue", for example, may describe his humor - but unless there is also text that first says "Funny man" one could not deduct that so if "Blue" were the only text than it could be a page "consisting purely of incoherent text or gibberish with no meaningful content or history" but I would say A1, as currently worded, works too. If the criteria is supposed to include articles such as the "funny man" example than maybe the wording of "lacking sufficient context" needs to describe "sufficient" along the lines of "no meaningful content or history", or at least saying that use of general descriptive words such as "funny", "red" or "man" are not enough. Combine with "He is a funny man with a red car. He makes people laugh" as an example that would meet the criteria and "He is the funniest man in Los Angeles with a red car. He makes people laugh" as one that would not. 19:00, 21 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soundvisions1 (talk • contribs)
- My personal interpretation is: If there is enough context so that you, I, or someone with sufficient expertise can reasonably be excpected to find sources on the topic, it's not an A1. An example from Balloonman's CSD survey that I find an A1 candidate (though he disagrees) is "Salle d'oragé" (French for "Hall of storm"):
It has details, but no one can figure out from that where that place is supposed to be. It could be a fictitious place from a novel or film, or it could be madeup by some bored student. It's impossible for anyone but the author to expand it, cause it doesn't give enough information to identify it. --Amalthea 19:34, 21 January 2009 (UTC)The salle d'oragé is a very mysterious place. It is located in an almost abandoned school, linking salle 1 to salle 2. Both 'salles', or rooms, are located under science labs, but also both link to two underground experiment labratories.
Many creations have come out of these salles, the two most notable being the E.P.I.C. duo, [removed name].
- (reply to Soundvisions1) I agree that that's a pretty poor example, but it's not part of the change I'm proposing here. It's already in the criterion. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- Re: Amalthea: I think that is a good example but I would not say A1. It is not fully "lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article". I read it as the subject is the name - "Salle d'oragé" and that is a "mysterious place" located in an "almost abandoned school". The bigger question is how to look for information, as you say. I would start by asking if it is the full article though - it seems to edited with, perhaps, the key "who" removed: "the two most notable being the E.P.I.C. duo, [removed name]." This might be a game description as well. But I do fully agree that "It could be a fictitious place from a novel or film, or it could be madeup by some bored student" and if that is the root of A1 than the wording needs to be clear in that. (i.e: the lack of descriptive terms which would indicate clearly 'who', 'what' or 'where' would make an article an A1)
- Re: Phil Bridger - True but your change does not really do much except remove the "very short" part so it includes any length article. Because, article wise, I have tended to view a lot of music related articles I can see the omission being applied to many of those simply because several have no context for the article. The best way I can describe it is an article on an album and all it says is "Third album from the subject" and contains a track listing. My gut instinct almost every time is to ask "And why is this notable?" I do get that "notability" does not equal "context" for this criteria but for a "very short" article at least one could understand it more and see there is no "notability" asserted. (Although we can not use any CSD for article on album outside of A9 it was the first example the came to me) A longer example might be to look at something from December 2005 - 2112 (song). If you have no idea what 2112 was, or who Neil Peart, Geddy Lee or Alex Lifeson are a person could wonder what this is. There is no mention that a band called Rush made this album or why this "song" is even notable. But even if you remove the first line/paragraph of the article and remove the bands members names, because the name of the article is "2112 (song)", it already gives the article text that reads "The suite tells a dystopic story set in the year 2112." some context. Look for something called "2112" that is a song and chances are you will find somehting that leads to the band Rush. And even going back to the example given of wikiasite:degrassi:Marco Del Rossi (Or Marco del rossi (character)) I can see how an article that starts off with "Season 2 Marco was first seen competing with Jimmy and Spinner at a dance competition" might be confusing at first but if you look at the name of the article you can gather some information and in scanning the actual article the use of the phrase "season" implies it has to do with some sort of T.V show. And the line that should be a very helpful give away is "Marco graduates as the valedictorian of the Degrassi class of 2006" That would tell me I should look for "Marco del rossi" and "Degrassi". The first thing that comes up is List of Degrassi: The Next Generation characters. But I could add "season 6" or some of the other names to a search.
- So just to be clear -
Oppose(See below) - "very short" should stay because an article that is not "very short" will, more than likely, have some sort of context and clues as to where it may go. Soundvisions1 (talk) 01:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)- But my proposal does still retain the "very short" wording. It just moves it to after the wording about context, because experience has shown that with the current wording many people tag very short articles that do have context under this criterion. Phil Bridger (talk) 01:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- D'oh! So sorry. I saw that it went from "Very short articles lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article" to "Articles lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article" and my brain did not see the wording move. I think also I saw that change and the Marco Del Rossi dif showed your reason for the denial of the A1 as "is not a very short article" so I thought your proposal was meant for allowing of longer articles to be nomed. In the words of Emily Litella - "Oh, well that's entirely different. Never Mind." But my "funny man" concept still stands though and at some point feel that example needs to change. :)
- Support. Soundvisions1 (talk) 02:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- But my proposal does still retain the "very short" wording. It just moves it to after the wording about context, because experience has shown that with the current wording many people tag very short articles that do have context under this criterion. Phil Bridger (talk) 01:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Overturned speedy deletions
To help provide some useful feedback on why some speedy deletions are overturned, for the purpose of discussion and training, I've started a new subpage called Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Overturned_speedy_deletions. This page lists articles whose speedy deletions were overturned in DRV, organized by criterion, along with their delete/restore date and summary, link to DRV discussion, and brief summary of why it was overturned. I've only done maybe a couple weeks of DRVs, let me know what you think. Dcoetzee 12:26, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- Interesting. It could be useful to get an idea of our most problematic criteria, if trends emerge. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- Moon, if you haven't looked at the study linked at the end of my name you might want to... it also has some other "surveys" that I've done on the subject.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 01:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- I actually tried to participate in that one, but I think I must have done something wrong, since it didn't look like my comments made it. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- You probably partook after I started collecting the results then... I basically copied everything that was on the results... I think I did surveys 1 and 2 on December 31 and 3 and 4 on January 1st.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 23:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, maybe so. I don't quite remember when I did it. I figure I must have done something wrong. When it comes to computer stuff, it usually seems to be something I did wrong. :) I think your survey results are very interesting, too. Things that help us see what's working and what isn't are a good idea. In this particular case, we get a good idea on what might be some of our more contentious deletion types, too, since these obviously were challenged. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:56, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- The next step, is to do a similar survey, but this time with all categories... and a little more scientific. This survey confirms that there is a problem, but the results cannot be applied to the total population of codes. The survey didn't include any copy vios or advertisements---both of which seem to have issues as well. The problem with copy vios is that we can't recreate them elsewhere, so that makes it problematic as far as getting non-admins involved.00:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- The survey confirms that some small number of speedy deletions were performed for erroneous reasons, and some even smaller number should likely not have been deleted at all. Is this really a problem, though, when viewed against the much larger number of speedy deletions that are performed? The survey examples were chosen for being controversial, so they really tell us nothing about typical speedies. They're useful as examples to show admins and speedy taggers, to help clarify what the categories mean, but I'm very reluctant to draw any broad conclusions about how well the overall process is being performed from this. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- How irrelevant can you get? "Typical speedies"? Why are typical speedies relevant here? Why can't we agree that TYPICAL speedies are deletions of crap that should be deleted and THEN begin to discuss the issues without talking about those? Twelve people were killed driving through this intersection last year because of flaws in the way traffic is regulated, but is that really a problem when viewed against the 5000 others who drove through without incident? The fact is, we can't tell what's getting deleted, and the sarcastic assertions that we can find out from the deletion logs have long since worn out. And in most cases no sarcasm is intended at all, and that's worse; that's total cluelessness. Michael Hardy (talk) 01:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- An erroneous speedy is easily reversible. A traffic fatality isn't. So a certain level of imperfection in speedies may be acceptable when the same level of imperfection in automotion may not be. Can we avoid the hysterical language, please? Typical speedies are relevant because by far the bulk of administrator effort on speedies goes to the typical ones. If we wanted to avoid erroneous speedies, we could simply abolish all speedies and prods and make everything go through the slower but more reliable AfD process. But the net effect would be harm to the encyclopedia because the amount of harmful junk that avoids deletion due to a more cumbersome process would go up relative to the small number of gems that might be saved. Our goal should not be the perfection of the speedy process, it should be understanding the costs and benefits of the speedy process in order to best serve the higher goal of making the encyclopedia better. I don't see your "all speedies are bad" attitude as helping towards that goal. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Dave, take a look at the G1/A7/A3 'surveys' I did on my own. Those were done without looking for controversial cases. I was looking for specific cases, and I was trying to avoid loading up on one admin (EG there was one admin who everytime I saw an A1, I cringed.) But you are correct, the study was not scientific, but the problem is, that it didn't take me too long to find them. I might be a different issue if I spent scores of hours combing through edits over the past year, but those samples came from 3 or 4 nights worth of deletions---and only a few of them. When you review a score of deletion, and a good percentage of those deletions are questionable. Then we have a problem.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 17:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- How irrelevant can you get? "Typical speedies"? Why are typical speedies relevant here? Why can't we agree that TYPICAL speedies are deletions of crap that should be deleted and THEN begin to discuss the issues without talking about those? Twelve people were killed driving through this intersection last year because of flaws in the way traffic is regulated, but is that really a problem when viewed against the 5000 others who drove through without incident? The fact is, we can't tell what's getting deleted, and the sarcastic assertions that we can find out from the deletion logs have long since worn out. And in most cases no sarcasm is intended at all, and that's worse; that's total cluelessness. Michael Hardy (talk) 01:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- The survey confirms that some small number of speedy deletions were performed for erroneous reasons, and some even smaller number should likely not have been deleted at all. Is this really a problem, though, when viewed against the much larger number of speedy deletions that are performed? The survey examples were chosen for being controversial, so they really tell us nothing about typical speedies. They're useful as examples to show admins and speedy taggers, to help clarify what the categories mean, but I'm very reluctant to draw any broad conclusions about how well the overall process is being performed from this. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- The next step, is to do a similar survey, but this time with all categories... and a little more scientific. This survey confirms that there is a problem, but the results cannot be applied to the total population of codes. The survey didn't include any copy vios or advertisements---both of which seem to have issues as well. The problem with copy vios is that we can't recreate them elsewhere, so that makes it problematic as far as getting non-admins involved.00:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, maybe so. I don't quite remember when I did it. I figure I must have done something wrong. When it comes to computer stuff, it usually seems to be something I did wrong. :) I think your survey results are very interesting, too. Things that help us see what's working and what isn't are a good idea. In this particular case, we get a good idea on what might be some of our more contentious deletion types, too, since these obviously were challenged. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:56, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- You probably partook after I started collecting the results then... I basically copied everything that was on the results... I think I did surveys 1 and 2 on December 31 and 3 and 4 on January 1st.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 23:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- I actually tried to participate in that one, but I think I must have done something wrong, since it didn't look like my comments made it. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- Moon, if you haven't looked at the study linked at the end of my name you might want to... it also has some other "surveys" that I've done on the subject.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 01:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Why only those that were overturned in a DRV? Why not include those that were undone by another administrator because the deletion was unjustified? Michael Hardy (talk) 03:22, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- I've started including some of those too - the DRV ones are ideal because they've had input from a number of people who agree it was in error, and they're easier to find. I've been trawling through deletion logs though and I now have several not listed at DRV. Dcoetzee 07:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- what is scary is the thought that these are just the ones that are overturned... there are a large number of items that are speedily deleted that shouldn't be, that are also unworthy of being recreated.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 07:29, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that not all of these represent incorrect deletions; in some cases they were restored because someone promised to improve it or new facts came to light. They really deserve careful study. Dcoetzee 07:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Which tells me that some of them were probably deleted WHILE the author was working on said article, which is where a lot of people get turned off of WP.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 23:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that not all of these represent incorrect deletions; in some cases they were restored because someone promised to improve it or new facts came to light. They really deserve careful study. Dcoetzee 07:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- what is scary is the thought that these are just the ones that are overturned... there are a large number of items that are speedily deleted that shouldn't be, that are also unworthy of being recreated.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 07:29, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Toward transparency
We now have Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Overturned speedy deletions.
We do not yet have any log of pages tagged for speedy deletion and their outcomes. We have only the page at CAT:CSD#Pages in category listing those CURRENTLY proposed for speedy deletion. There is the deletion log (not searchable!) but there's no record of those proposed for speedy and declined.
I've also sent Brion Vibber this email:
begin copy of email
Hello. I wonder if this searchability issue can be dealt with:
The log at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log/delete
is not searchable.
I.e. I cannot enter some search terms to identify which articles containing certain
- (1) words or phrases or
- (2) category tags,
either
- (1) in the body of the article, or
- (2) in the title, or
- (3) in the edit summaries, or
- (4) in the list of users who have edited it, or
- (5) in the links _to_ the new article, or
have been deleted during a time period that I specify.
Only such searchability can make it possible for those with expertise in a particular subject to see what's going on with deletions that they would recognize as having meaningful content where a non-expert would not. What happens repeatedly is a badly written new article on a topic worthy of an article is speedily deleted by an admin who says it's incomprehensible gibberish.
If I point out in such a case that five seconds of Google searching, or often of searching within Wikipedia, would identify the subject, I am lectured about how unreasonable it is to ask anyone to do that when there's a huge backlog of new articles.
Speedy deletion proposals like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saint-Ad%C3%A8le&oldid=263979110
or this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Poisson_hidden_Markov_model&oldid=259124759
just seem irresponsible.
For about six weeks in February and March 2008 several articles were deleted every day on the grounds that they were new articles on mathematics. That ended abruptly when I wrote a strident complaint at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion, but that is not a systematic or permanent solution.
Is it possible that that log page could be made searchable in a way that satisfies points (1) through (5) above?
Thanks. -- Mike Hardy
end copy of email
Michael Hardy (talk) 21:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- Frankly, if the speedy is proposed and declined, I believe nothing has gone awry; the very reason deletion is not given to all users is that regular users are not expected to be familiar enough with policy and/or mature enough to exercise due caution in deleting articles. For the same reason I omit articles from Overturned speedy deletions that were restored almost immediately by the admin that deleted them (I think we can forgive an admin for changing their mind after further thought). Searching deletion logs would be great, but full-text search functionality like this is notorious for performance issues, since there's no full-text index on the summary fields - Brion may be likely to object on those grounds. Dcoetzee 22:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree that nothing has gone awry if all that has happened is that a speedy has been proposed and declined.
I also thing nothing has gone awry if a new article has been created. So should we erase all record of that too?
There far too much that's opaque about the whole process; I want to get a picture of what goes on. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:23, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, that's exactly what happens: new page creation is logged in the recentchanges table, which is systematically purged after 30 days. The ability to search for new articles is lost, you have to look through articles individually to see if they were created 31 days ago. Since there is no enduring log of new page creations at all, the deletion process is actually more transparent. Happy‑melon 23:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
What are you talking about? Obviously I know there's a deletion log. I'm getting awfully sick of repeating over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that that obviously doesn't do it. Try reading what I wrote above. Michael Hardy (talk) 02:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- My comment was entirely in response to your question "So should we erase all record of [new pag creation] too? Apologies if there was any confusion. Unlike an increasing number of other editors I still read everything you post to this page. Happy‑melon 08:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think the deleted page log will be made searchable (although you may possibly get a search tool for sysops). Either way, bugzilla is the place to be for this. Stifle (talk) 15:22, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- You could download the logs dumps and search through them on your own machine. It's not an ideal solution, as the dumps aren't up to date, but it's at least better than nothing. I agree with Stifle that bugzilla and/or WP:VPT are probably better places to ask for searchable logs. Cheers. lifebaka++ 16:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Creating a toolserver tool that allows searching log entries would probably be feasible. As the toolserver has less load, longer-running queries aren't as much of a problem. Anything else wouldn't really be possible without significant changes to MediaWiki. Outgoing categorylinks and pagelinks are deleted from the database when a page is deleted, so you'll only be able to see pages linking to the deleted page. The page table entry is also deleted and I presume all the search engine indexing is as well (I really have no idea how the lucene search extension works, so I don't know for sure). The edit summaries and history is still kept in the archive table, though its probably not searchable for performance reasons, I don't believe its accessible from the toolserver for security reasons, and its not downloadable in database dumps. Mr.Z-man 17:41, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
MfD for Overturned speedy deletions
If interested, please consider commenting at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Overturned speedy deletions. Dcoetzee 22:30, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Criterion for Wikipedia:Protecting children's privacy?
Seeing a bunch of SD requests citing Wikipedia:Protecting children's privacy these days, I wonder whether we should create a new U4 for "Userpages consisting solely of information about a child that might be potentially dangerous to the user in question and where there is no other version to revert to". Thoughts? Regards SoWhy 00:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
- No, because it should probably go to WP:OVERSIGHT instead. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:06, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
The only case where this would apply is when the article is being written solely for the purpose of outing someone. Broadly speaking, I think this already falls under G10. I might support a general criterion along these lines, but I fear it may be applied overbroadly - for example, to articles about child actresses that happen to include information about their family. If you could link some of the out-of-process speedy deletions you're referring to, it would be helpful to see if they were truly valid and sufficiently numerous.Dcoetzee 00:14, 25 January 2009 (UTC)- Oops, I misread the question, you were proposing a user space criterion. I do not support deletion of information like this before contacting the user involved. They may be well aware of the risks, and it's condescending (children can think for themselves). If you contact them and they wish to delete it, U1 covers that. If there's no response, then I think oversight is the best course. Dcoetzee 05:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
- Can you give examples and show why existing procedures, including existing CSDs, trimming and deleting specific edits, and oversight, are not adequate for each of those examples? davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 00:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
- Technically, these userpages do not entirely fall under the oversight policy, nor any written CSD. In line with what Dcoetzee said, I don't think there should be a CSD for it, otherwise every child editor will find their userpages deleted by pedants. -- zzuuzz (talk) 01:07, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, all criteria are essentially "can be deleted" not "have to be deleted", so any admin can just decline it. My point was that sometimes you have pages where there is personal information by children who are unaware of the risks and not often active and I've seen a bunch of WP:PCHP-deletions which I think should rather be covered by a criterion rather than an ArbCom decision... SoWhy 13:30, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Closing school-A7 discussion as no consensus
It's been open for a month and idle for a week, so I closed the discussion Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools/Criteria for Speedy Deletion A7 as no consensus to change, schools remain ineligible for speedy deletion under criteria A7 but of course remain eligible under other criteria. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 01:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Give notice before making bold non-trivial edits
This is a policy page folks, stability is important.
I support the last two bold edits but it would've been nice to at least have a few hours' if not a days' notice on a policy page. Just because I think my edit will be greeted with resounding applause doesn't mean it will be. Edit-revert-discuss is fine for most articles, essays, and maybe guidelines, but policy pages deserve more care. For substantive edits, I'd suggest announce, wait a day or discuss, edit, hope there is no reversion, discuss more if there is instead. For trivial edits like minor rewording/grammar/typos etc. please just make the edit, nobody will revert you and we'll all silently thank you. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 00:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- No argument from me - I decided to rewrite instead of revert because I'm hesitant to outright revert what looks to be a good (and relatively minor) edit, but I think CSD deserves discussion on anything substantive. Dcoetzee 02:09, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- Personally, I disagree with the change and would like see it reverted. If only the title is an attack, then the course of action should be: Moving to an inoffensive title and then deleting the redirect as R3. I do not see any reason to delete perfectly good content just because of a title we can change and get rid of easily without having to delete the rest. Regards SoWhy 13:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- That makes sense, actually. No sense deleting when you can repair the article with a move. Dcoetzee 23:26, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think that's implied in the new wording. The section is called "Pages that serve no purpose but to disparage or threaten their subject or some other entity (e.g., "John Q. Doe is an imbecile")." [emphasis added]. However, if you want to revert, we can discuss it. It's new enough to claim "no consensus/reverting to discuss." davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 01:13, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Proposed change to intro, G8 and to Redirect: Spell out that reverting is good, redux
I'd like to run this by one more time, it's the consensus that came out of Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 32#Proposed change to intro and to Redirect: Spell out that reverting is good. Stifle (talk · contribs) suggested a more radical rewording to parallel CSD:F7. Dcoetzee (talk · contribs) said the change was unnecessary, I think it would be helpful. travb (talk · contribs) suggests an RFC but I don't think that's necessary but I'd like some quick feedback on that. I've demoed the change in this edit, which I self-reverted.
“ | Changes to intro:
Deletion is not required if a page meets these criteria. Before nominating an article for speedy deletion, consider whether it could be improved, reduced to a stub, reverted to an acceptable earlier version, merged or redirected elsewhere or be handled with some other action short of deletion. Changes to G8: Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page, such as talk pages with no corresponding subject page; subpages with no parent page; image pages without a corresponding image; redirects to invalid targets, such as nonexistent targets, redirect loops, and bad titles; or categories populated by deleted or retargeted templates. This excludes any page that is useful to the project or which can be restored to an acceptable earlier version, and in particular: deletion discussions that are not logged elsewhere, user and user talk pages, talk page archives, plausible redirects that can be changed to valid targets, and image pages or talk pages for images that exist on Wikimedia Commons. Proposed changes to Redirect section: Redirect pages that have useful page history or acceptable previous versions should never be speedy deleted. |
” |
If I don't get any objections or further requests for an RFC in the next day I'll put it in. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 01:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC) Clarification - the underlined text above represents new text. It will not appear underlined after insertion. This diff mistakenly underlined the text. 01:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- I support the changes to the lede and oppose the changes to the intro.
criteria must be unambiguous and the attached wording is ambiguous. G8 includes a litany of pages which it clearly applies to and a corresponding list of those for which G8 does not apply. I don't think we need a change that says "or if you think page XYZ might be useful".Protonk (talk) 04:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC) - Ok. Scratch my misreading up there. However, I want to stick to my position. I don't think that G8 needs that proviso. Presumably it would mean to apply to redirects where the redirect could be changed to something useful or a talk page which was blank (or what-not) at the time of deletion but served some function in the past. That strikes me as common sense. We don't need it in G8. Protonk (talk) 04:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I actually think it would be not just useless but actively damaging, in pulling attention away from the other equally important prerequisites for speedy deletion. I've seen my share of bad deletions where the admin failed to look at the history, but I think there are better ways to address this problem. Nevertheless if consensus is for the change that's fine with me, not a big deal. Dcoetzee 04:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)- So if something is common sense we shouldn't do it? I've seen it stated here that "you can't legislate common sense", but that's just dogma; I see nothing to recommend it. And Dcoetzee should be specific about the "better ways". G8 isn't the only thing that could profit from some explicit common sense. Michael Hardy (talk) 06:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- No. If something is common sense, we should do it, not outline it in policy necessarily. It should be noted that reverting to a previously acceptable version is a good thing and preferable to deletion. Where is is immediately helpful is in the copyvio deletion procedure--we note that many copyvios can be "fixed" by reverting to a past good revision. How or where that specifically applies to G8 is a mystery to me. As for the "common sense" question, I hope this is clear. Policy shouldn't suggest non-sensical action, it should also comply with practice. That doesn't mean that we enshrine remedial or redundant information in policy. It is a good idea to check to see that you are on the right page before deleting it or that you are on the right user page before blocking a user. It would be insane for policy to suggest that we not do so. But it would be redundant for policy to suggest that we do so. Policies and guidelines should be clear, terse and helpful. Legislating common sense results in policies which are dense, unhelpful and longwinded. I don't see how holding this view is dogmatic. Protonk (talk) 06:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- There are administrators who NEED to have it pointed out to them that if they see a page that is identical to a passage from a copyrighted book or web page, they have no business posting an accusation that says it is "unquestionably" a copyright violation (sometimes the person copying the book to Wikipedia is the copyright owner and merely neglected to indicate that fact). There are administrators who NEED to have it pointed out that if an article appears to them to be patent nonsense, it may be just a badly written article about a subject they don't know, and 30 seconds with Google would make that clear. There are administrators who NEED to have it pointed out that if 2400 Wikipedia articles link to a particular article and those links were put there by winners of Pulitzer Prizes, winners of Nobel prizes, professors at Harvard and MIT, famous writers, etc., then maybe that indicates that the article is not just crap, but may be just badly constructed and salvageable. There are administrators who NEED to have it pointed out that if an article was created by a banned user in violation of the ban, or by Adolf Hitler, that it may nonetheless be a good article that should be kept, and that CSD does not REQUIRE its deletion. I've seen all of these things happen, with the administrator in question citing CSD as justification. Michael Hardy (talk) 06:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- Do you at least concede that we could put these things in policy until we are blue in the face and that administrators and editors would ignore it with about equal frequency? Or are you intent on suggesting that were we to state all of these things (some of which are already stated in the policy, the drop down menu for deletion, the deletion mediawiki interface text, etc.), the decrease in mistakes/malfeasance would be significant enough to merit the resulting increase in size and unwieldiness of our policy pages? Protonk (talk) 06:36, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- There are administrators who NEED to have it pointed out to them that if they see a page that is identical to a passage from a copyrighted book or web page, they have no business posting an accusation that says it is "unquestionably" a copyright violation (sometimes the person copying the book to Wikipedia is the copyright owner and merely neglected to indicate that fact). There are administrators who NEED to have it pointed out that if an article appears to them to be patent nonsense, it may be just a badly written article about a subject they don't know, and 30 seconds with Google would make that clear. There are administrators who NEED to have it pointed out that if 2400 Wikipedia articles link to a particular article and those links were put there by winners of Pulitzer Prizes, winners of Nobel prizes, professors at Harvard and MIT, famous writers, etc., then maybe that indicates that the article is not just crap, but may be just badly constructed and salvageable. There are administrators who NEED to have it pointed out that if an article was created by a banned user in violation of the ban, or by Adolf Hitler, that it may nonetheless be a good article that should be kept, and that CSD does not REQUIRE its deletion. I've seen all of these things happen, with the administrator in question citing CSD as justification. Michael Hardy (talk) 06:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- No. If something is common sense, we should do it, not outline it in policy necessarily. It should be noted that reverting to a previously acceptable version is a good thing and preferable to deletion. Where is is immediately helpful is in the copyvio deletion procedure--we note that many copyvios can be "fixed" by reverting to a past good revision. How or where that specifically applies to G8 is a mystery to me. As for the "common sense" question, I hope this is clear. Policy shouldn't suggest non-sensical action, it should also comply with practice. That doesn't mean that we enshrine remedial or redundant information in policy. It is a good idea to check to see that you are on the right page before deleting it or that you are on the right user page before blocking a user. It would be insane for policy to suggest that we not do so. But it would be redundant for policy to suggest that we do so. Policies and guidelines should be clear, terse and helpful. Legislating common sense results in policies which are dense, unhelpful and longwinded. I don't see how holding this view is dogmatic. Protonk (talk) 06:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- Michael is correct, but it's irrelevant to our discussion here. I think david's changes do not hurt but rather make things more clearer, even if it's only common sense. After all, pointing out a common sense option does not change the fact that some admins and users alike tend to ignore the CSD criteria but it does also not hurt it. So where is the problem with david's suggestions? SoWhy 13:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
My question is that how would adding "reverted to an acceptable earlier version" relate to a "blatant copvio" or "Recreation of deleted material" nom for example? I think either of those one could "consider whether it could be improved, reduced to a stub, merged or redirected elsewhere or be handled with some other action short of deletion" but not "reverted to an acceptable earlier version" For example the "blatant copvio" tag gives editors a week to make changes but it is my understanding that one should not simply "revert" the article to address the issue. So I don't think adding that wording does much in the intro, on the other hand why could it simply be added to any individual criteria as needed? Look at G10. It closes with "...and if the page is an article about a living person it should not be restored or recreated by any editor until it meets biographical article standards." Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:15, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- We revert on blatant copyvios all the time. The usual scenario is: Someone takes a non-copyvio article and replaces it with or adds a significant amount of copyvio text. We don't delete the article just because of that, we revert to the non-copyvio version. I don't see what G10 has to do with anything, attack pages are pretty much the only CSD criteria where BLP would be an additional issue. Yes that technically applies to all deletions, but in practice for CSD it almost exclusively applies to G10. Reverting to a previous version makes sense for almost criterion, it would be rather redundant to add it to each one. That said, I don't see why G8 is so special that it would need extra emphasis there. Mr.Z-man 20:55, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- I was basing my question on the wording found on {{Copyviocore}} that says "Do not edit this page until an administrator has resolved this issue" and to create a temp version to work on. However if that is not the case, and I know it is another subject, but, we should remove that wording and/or add that the wording to simply revert (using the proposed wording here "acceptable previous versions") if possible on the actual template. Other than that:
- Support. Soundvisions1 (talk) 23:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm reversing my position on this proposal. I was under the impression that the proposal was merely to underline certain phrases in the policy, which I viewed as counterproductive. In fact it's adding new text. Provided that the new text is not underlined, and this was only used to emphasize the additions for the purpose of discussion, I support the changes. Dcoetzee 21:50, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
T1 restored
I have restored CSD T1 (divisive and inflammatory templates), which apparently was removed by Dcoetzee as I believe there was no consensus to remove it in the thread provided (Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_32#CSD_T1). A significant number of people voiced objections with insufficient numbers to match the move to remove it. I highly suggest listing a motion to remove T1 either at WP:VPP or WP:CENT if you believe it should be removed. --slakr\ talk / 20:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- Apparently I also had to undelete the deleted
{{db-t1}}
and revert the removals to all of the CSD info templates. Dcoetzee: In the future, please do not delete CSD templates you've deprecated yourself within moments of removing the CSD from WP:CSD. I would suggest, instead, TFD. Otherwise, it makes it literally impossible for anyone but an administrator to completely revert your actions (thereby inhibiting the consensus-building process), while rendering the category de facto unusable by non-administrators. --slakr\ talk / 21:09, 26 January 2009 (UTC) - Er, I saw only one objection in the cited thread, without any justification provided. There was discussion over a period of weeks here, on the page intended for discussion of revisions to this policy, and a long waiting period. The only reasoned objections were to extending T1 to a general criterion. That looks like clear, strong consensus to me. I'm glad to open the issue up to wider discussion, but I really strongly believe consensus today is against T1. I would be glad to put the templates through TfD; I saw this as noncontroversial housekeeping associated with the repeal of the criterion, but if TfD is okay with it I am. Dcoetzee 21:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- Usually significantly more than a few people people supporting a change are needed to claim any sort of quorum for adding or removing stuff from CSD. On *fD, a small handfull might be enough to establish consensus to keep or delete, but CSD has proven significantly more demanding before large changes stick. From what I'm led to believe, T1, in part, emerged due to problems with canvassing for causes (the divisive part) as well as rallying ideologies. Yes, a template can be used to specifically attack another editor, in which case it would also fall under G10; however, T1 is not limited to attacks. One of the examples I ran across was a "This user supports pedophilia" userbox, which, while not an attack, is definitely inflammatory and non-conducive to harmonious editing. I think that was the rationale behind adding T1 instead of lumping it with G10. Some pages I found where there's stuff about this:
- I mean, I personally don't really care either way, but I think more discussion is needed before claiming consensus to undo history (especially if there actually was objection).
- --slakr\ talk / 00:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm well aware not all T1s are G10s (a point I had to remind a few people of) - I just think the remaining cases are better handled at TfD. Anyway, I'll start a new discussion and advertise to address your concerns. Dcoetzee 01:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
CSD for WP:NFC #8 deletions
I am concerned by the use of CSD, using template {{di-disputed fair use rationale}}, with a claimed deletion rationale of "fails WP:NFCC#8 as the image does not add significantly to readers' understanding of the article and its omission would not be detrimental to that understanding" -- often in cases where this is simply the nominator's opinion, where there is a validly filled-out rationale, and others might well see the image as validly adding to reader understanding.
Apparently, going via CSD causes fewer waves than IfD, [1] [2], presumably because fewer people are likely to spot what's happening.
My understanding, on the other-hand, is that CSD is supposed only to be for non-controversial deletions.
WP:NFCC#8 by its very nature is a judgment call. CSD shouldn't be used to hide such deletions out of sight. IMO, the right venue for them is IfD, and use of CSD as an "under the radar" shortcut is not appropriate.
What would people feel about editing WP:CSD to make clear that a claimed WP:NFCC#8 issue should not be acceptable grounds for a CSD#I7 ? Jheald (talk) 22:50, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- It is not a "speedy deletion". The mix of image deletion tags that proceed without discussion are referred to as "pseudo-speedy deletion". The purpose was to reduce some of the burden on IfD (a very different venue than AfD) but still protect uploaders (by specifying a timetable). Unlike speedy deletion, these tags set timers and categories (admittedly, categories linked to from cat:csd) are populated by date. They should be thought of as analogous to prods. The use of specific "I" criteria in the deletion log is for convenience. We could force administrators to note that the image was listed at a disputed fair use category for a specific time.
- Alternately, if admins are speedying these before the time has allotted, that is a problem. Protonk (talk) 22:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but cynical advice to use CSD when IfDs are meeting resistance, as referenced above, shows that something is seriously broken.
- I can see that it may be administratively convenient for people who just want images to disappear, but controversial deletions should go to IfD, for the whole community to look at. Jheald (talk) 23:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think I'm being clear. These are not mechanisms for speedy deletion. They are very much like prods. IfD is a different beast than AfD. 99% of the images that go there don't get discussed. It is common to see a page full of "delete: unencyclopedic, orhpaned, absent uploader" nominations with no response. To dismiss attempts to filter image deletion by type as "cynical advice to use CSD when IfDs are meeting resistance" is to miss the point entirely. These aren't "avoiding resistance". If there is resistance, remove the tag, add a rationale and demand that the image be sent to IfD. IT will go there. Alternately once the time expires on the image, an admin is still free to remove the tag and decline the "deletion" if they feel the image required a discussion. Protonk (talk) 23:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- Did you read the discussion I referenced? Specifically the comment
Yes, it has stirred up a bit of opposition... I've tried your more passive suggestion - only 3 out of 30 contested so less feathers ruffled - and may try again in a few days.
- I am not talking about images with no rationale at all, nor about orphaned images. I'm talking about images which do have a filled-out rationale, nominated for NFCC #8 because they conflict with somebody's particular personal agenda, and marked for CSD because chances are nobody will notice what's going on. That is not what CSD - even so-called "pseudo" CSD - is intended for.
- And yes, it is a mechanism for "speedy" deletion, because it short-cuts the normal processes for community oversight and involvement. Jheald (talk) 00:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- Did you read the discussion I referenced? Specifically the comment
- I don't think I'm being clear. These are not mechanisms for speedy deletion. They are very much like prods. IfD is a different beast than AfD. 99% of the images that go there don't get discussed. It is common to see a page full of "delete: unencyclopedic, orhpaned, absent uploader" nominations with no response. To dismiss attempts to filter image deletion by type as "cynical advice to use CSD when IfDs are meeting resistance" is to miss the point entirely. These aren't "avoiding resistance". If there is resistance, remove the tag, add a rationale and demand that the image be sent to IfD. IT will go there. Alternately once the time expires on the image, an admin is still free to remove the tag and decline the "deletion" if they feel the image required a discussion. Protonk (talk) 23:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- I can see that it may be administratively convenient for people who just want images to disappear, but controversial deletions should go to IfD, for the whole community to look at. Jheald (talk) 23:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- There are multiple reasons for which "invalid fair use justification" may be an unreasonable criterion for speedy deletion. See Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Overturned_speedy_deletions#F7_-_Invalid_fair-use_claim for two that were overturned at DRV (they were, however, both subsequently deleted at IfD). Considering some of the heated debates I've seen over - for example - the use of logos under fair use, I think the use of NFCC#8 is particularly suspect. Let's briefly review which of the NFCC are actually objective:
- NFCC#1 (no free equivalent) is non-contentious when a free equivalent of equal quality already exists on Wikipedia, but is contentious when it doesn't (the possibility and difficulty of obtaining a free equivalent must be taken into account, and quality may need to be traded off against freedom).
- NFCC#2 (respect for commercial opportunities) is contentious because it's impossible to predict the effect of an image's use on its commercial use.
- NFCC#3 (minimal usage and minimal extent of use): Not a basis for deletion.
- NFCC#4 (previous publication): This one seems reasonable, as long as the uploader has time to explain it, in case it was only published offline.
- NFCC#5 (meets content standards and is encyclopedic): Too fuzzy.
- NFCC#6 (media specific policy): There's a whole page for these, but most of them are covered by other criteria or don't require deletion.
- NFCC#7 (one article minimum): Covered by F5.
- NFCC#8 (significance): Highly subjective, as noted above. Some images are purely decorative and pretty clear-cut, but frequently one person's decorative image is another's significant image.
- NFCC#9 (restrictions on location): Not a basis for deletion.
- NFCC#10 (image description page info): Already covered by F4, F6.
- In short, nearly all the NFCC are not clearly valid criteria for speedy deletion. I suggest that F7 be rewritten in much more specific terms (for example, fair use justification is misleading or incomplete). Dcoetzee 23:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
- This is more of an argument for splitting off timer-based non-discussion deletions from real speedy deletions, and merge PROD into that grouping. Timer-based deletions would be anything which requires either a specific fix or simply an objection before the timer expires, but which does not require a discussion. Most image deletions fall into this grouping. Such a change would require an RFC and I'm not prepared to open one now. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 01:29, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- The usual argument: "speedy" deletion has nothing to do with the time taken to delete, it has to do with the degree of scrutiny the deletion receives. As long as one person is making the call it's speedy. PROD isn't speedy because anyone has the opportunity to participate by removing the tag. It might be useful to distinguish timed CSDs from normal ones, but the real issue here is that a lot of F7s deserve wider discussion. Dcoetzee 01:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- Anyone but the original author can remove a speedy on articles. I de-speedy on a regular basis. For articles, speedy is like PROD bypassing the waiting period, due to the urgency of the matter e.g. copyvio/attack or the stupidity of waiting e.g. nonsense. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I'll post the usual response then. Part of what a speedy deletion is lies in the number of editors who review the nomination and deletion. The other part (missing in all of these image pseudo speedy deletion tags) is the lack of a time constraint. By the logic that only number of editors involved determines a speedy, then prod==speedy, which isn't true. I'm really lost on what the fuss is. The image gets tagged, if some change (usually writing a fair use rationale or finding a source) doesn't occur within the specified period of time, it gets deleted. At any point along the way, anyone (aside from the uploader) can remove the tag and either send it to IfD or fix the problem. Protonk (talk) 02:52, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- The usual argument: "speedy" deletion has nothing to do with the time taken to delete, it has to do with the degree of scrutiny the deletion receives. As long as one person is making the call it's speedy. PROD isn't speedy because anyone has the opportunity to participate by removing the tag. It might be useful to distinguish timed CSDs from normal ones, but the real issue here is that a lot of F7s deserve wider discussion. Dcoetzee 01:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there a template for declines?
Just wondering if there's a nice, friendly template I can drop on the talk page of someone who's been notified of a speedy deletion to let them know the speedy's been declined. It occurs to me that a new editor who comes back the next day and sees the speedy deletion notice might be very confused when they go to the article and can't see a deletion notice there.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 02:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, I thought you were asking about a template for someone improperly adding a speedy tag. That one's right here. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- I've used that one a time or two for just that purpose. ;-) --Fabrictramp | talk to me 02:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Removal of T1 redux
Following discussion on this talk page archived at Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_32#CSD_T1, the criterion for speedy deletion T1 ("Templates that are divisive and inflammatory") was repealed for about six weeks, all associated templates were deleted, and it was removed from MediaWiki:Deletereason-dropdown. User:Slakr has raised legitimate concerns that that discussion may not have been widely advertised enough to establish clear consensus for such a significant policy change. I'm an opponent of T1, but I don't want anyone saying this change went under the radar, so I'm raising it again here, and advertising it at:
- Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)
- Wikipedia:Centralized discussion
- Wikipedia_talk:T1 and T2 debates
Many of us remember how contentious T1 was when it was first introduced, and this historical debate is summarized in detail at Wikipedia:T1 and T2 debates. From that page, a summary of T1's early history:
T1 is shorthand for Criterion for Speedy Deletion (CSD) of templates, number one, and the divisive and inflammatory criterion applied by the owner of the Wikipedia site, Jimmy Wales, for speedy deletion. T1 arose regarding userboxes (small boxes placed on a contributor's userpage indicating their interest or belief in something). Such boxes began with strictly project-related themes, such as "this user speaks English" or "this user is interested in mathematics", but started branching out into more playful boxes. The so-called "Userbox Wars" originated with a user who created a userbox claiming an interest in pedophilia. An administrator who found this offensive banned the user, prompting cries of abuse of administrative power and leading to the Pedophilia userbox wheel war RfAR, which led to intervention by Jimbo Wales and the de-sysopping of several administrators. In the wake of this notorious incident, on 6 February [2006] User:Sannse added the criteria T1 as "Templates that are divisive and inflammatory.", without using an edit summary or explaining it on the talk page. This was reverted out of and back into the page twice in the next hour. The first deletion noted that there was no consensus for adding it. The second restoration was by Jimbo, and also marked the first use of the talk page to discuss it. Although the community felt compelled to accept this addition by their "benevolent dictator", there was and continues to be considerable dissent over whether this rule for templates should exist, whether and how it should be modified, and how it should be interpreted.
Some diffs: Sannse adds T1, Jimbo reverts to restore it.
That was nearly two years ago, and I believe we now have the benefit of hindsight and emotional calmness to evaluate whether this controversial criterion is useful. Moreover, today we have criterion for speedy deletion G10 ("Pages that serve no purpose but to disparage or threaten their subject or some other entity"), which did not exist in 2006 and covers some of the same ground as T1. Among the objections to T1 are:
- Rarely used: speedy deletion criteria are required to occur frequently, because they exist primarily to reduce load on other processes; a discussion coming to a consensus is always more fair, as long as it's practical. CSD T1 was once used very commonly, in the days of the Userbox Wars, but today is rarely applied. Any case where a template is used to attack another user is covered by G10; if these cases are removed, very few uses of T1 remain indeed, and these should be given the careful consideration they deserve at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion.
- Defunct following userbox userfication: The resolution of the Userbox Wars involved userfying (moving to user subpages) the majority of userbox templates. Today, most userboxes to which T1 could conceivably apply lie outside the scope of T1, because they're in the wrong namespace. There is currently no consensus around expanding T1 to a general criterion (see this thread).
- Too subjective: What constitutes a "divisive and inflammatory" template? T1 is easily the most subjective criterion for speedy deletion, and the many attempts to make its wording more objective (described in the debates summary) ultimately came to nothing. There are many edge cases: for example, if a person expresses support for a political candidate, is that divisive and inflammatory? What if a person expresses support for a contentious policy like flagged revisions?
- Implemented against consensus: There was never a consensus around implementing T1, with roughly even supporters and opponents; Jimbo forced the issue as an emergency measure. The emergency is now passed and if it is to stay, there should be a new consensus behind a long-term implementation.
Some arguments in support of T1:
- Avoid needless conflict: A TfD discussion over a divisive and inflammatory userbox will arouse passions and cause conflict for no useful end, since they're only for community building. A quiet, quick deletion by a single admin avoids this.
- Decreed by Jimbo: As our benevolent dictator, Jimbo Wales has the authority to modify policy as he sees fit, and so we are compelled to accept T1 until such time as he himself deems otherwise.
- Wikipedia is not Myspace: Deleting userboxes does no real damage to the encyclopedia; productive users whose userboxes are deleted continue to be productive contributors.
The proposal is to return T1 to its repealed wording:
- (Deprecated — placeholder to preserve numbering; use General criterion 10 or Wikipedia:Templates for deletion as applicable.)
Additionally: The associated templates will be nominated at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion, and MediaWiki:Deletereason-dropdown will be modified to once more remove T1.
I'm opening a straw poll here, and I invite you to express your support or opposition to T1 and bring any arguments I may not have considered. Dcoetzee 03:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose T1 as proposer. Dcoetzee 03:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- You rock. Thanks for addressing my concerns. Cheers =) --slakr\ talk / 03:54, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- I refactored the above to make it more intuitive. Now opposing means opposing T1, instead of opposing it's abolition.--chaser (away) - talk 04:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)