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On another matter-- related to me being unaware of how these things work-- again, I would not have even been aware of this matter had I not stumbled across a CCI opened by Amalthea, where Amalthea stated that PumpkinSky was Rlevse. It was always my understanding that there had to be cause to run a CU: I'm confused about what brought Amalthea to this matter to begin with. I'd appreciate not being shot at again for asking a question related to things I don't understand on Wiki. What caused Amalthea-- a CU-- to look into this matter, and what brought Amalthea's attention to the DYK copyvio? [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC) |
On another matter-- related to me being unaware of how these things work-- again, I would not have even been aware of this matter had I not stumbled across a CCI opened by Amalthea, where Amalthea stated that PumpkinSky was Rlevse. It was always my understanding that there had to be cause to run a CU: I'm confused about what brought Amalthea to this matter to begin with. I'd appreciate not being shot at again for asking a question related to things I don't understand on Wiki. What caused Amalthea-- a CU-- to look into this matter, and what brought Amalthea's attention to the DYK copyvio? [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 14:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC) |
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: How this came to light is extremely banal and ''completely irrelevant'' for getting this resolved. Nonetheless, to avoid anyone suspecting subterfuge (Hah, as if…), it is apparently necessary, so here is everything that could possibly be relevant to this in excruciatingly boring detail. |
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{{cot}} |
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:# Note first, I did not gain, have or use any information whatsoever from CheckUser queries on this matter until 12:06, 1 February 2012 when I wanted to rule out that I was being played, a few hours before I made the connection public. |
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:# PumpkinSky {{oldid2|474643175|sind_deine_Ohren_brennen.3F|approaches me on my talk page}} to ask for deletion of a redirect in user space on behalf of a third editor. |
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:# I can't reproduce my exact thoughts on how I made the connection initially. I was not consciously looking, so it was probably a combination of a few things: 1) the exchange was a bit odd -- why was I approached of all people? 2) The reply made me aware that it was probably a native English speaker who also knows German. 3) A number of things in the contributions were familiar to me 4) I'm kinda conditioned to spot socks 5) I only remember talking to few people in German on my talk page, one of them was Rlevse. |
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:# Having a closer look at the contributions convinces me without a doubt. I had looked closely at the edits of BarkingMoon back then, and they were practically indistinguishable (that's why I keep saying I'm convinced they are the same); besides edit summaries I could name seven other aspects where they are identical. |
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:# Judging by immediate history (last 200 edits or so) he appears to be very constructive, and I remember him fondly. I remember BarkingMoon had a dispute with GiacomoReturned, but PumpkinSky seems to be on good terms with him, so my immediate concerns were relieved. |
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:# Without disclosing the account, I enquire with one Arbcom member whether they knew of his return, and whether there were any sanctions or discussions pending his return. They weren't, and to their knowledge their wasn't. |
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:# Based on that, I contact PumpkinSky; I don't mind a user returning under a new name presuming they have learned from prior problems and are very careful with regards to [[WP:SCRUTINY]], with all that it entails. I remind you, dear reader, that we actually ''want'' constructive users here. |
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:# I say I know he is Rlevse, he acknowledges, I say I want to talk about a few things. |
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:# While preparing a mail with my concerns (close paraphrasing, wp:SCRUTINY, and the concerns I knew from Will Beback back when BarkingMoon edited), I check one of PumpkinSky's articles. The very first sentence in the very first article I check is a word-for-word copy from a source. I confront him with that. |
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:# He says he's leaving. |
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:# I reply, trying to get him to stay in the dialog. |
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:# I reply again, notifying that I'll have no choice to make it public then so that a cleanup effort can be started (CCing his old email address). |
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:# I begin compiling some material that concerns me to check in with Moonriddengirl and get her opinion on the severity. |
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:# While I do that, I notice that PumpkinSky's email account had been deactivated (gmail didn't forward the bounce through POP3, so I hadn't noticed before). |
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:# Also while I do that, I notice that one of his articles was currently a DYK entry on the main page. I found two sentences that concerned me with respect to close paraphrasing. |
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:# I believe that I need to act immediately and can't wait for MRG to see and respond to my mail, so I remove the DYK entry, and start a section at [[WT:CCI]] asking for input on the severity |
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:# I send a brief mail to Moonriddengirl giving her context, and asking her to have a look |
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:# Moonriddengirl is the first to reply at [[WT:CCI]], but hadn't seen my mail yet |
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:# Moonriddengirl replies by mail, voices her concerns regarding improper vanishing, cleanstart |
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:# Up to this point I had been undecided whether the connection should or needed to be made public: I expected a huge amount of drama with very little benefit. Thinking about it for a while, and with MRGs added concerns, I realize it's not my call to make, and that it needs to be in the hands of the community, for better or worse. |
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:# I perform CheckUser queries on PumpkinSky and compare with an IP from an e-mail header from way back, to make absolutely sure that I'm not played |
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:# I write an e-mail to arbcom, informing them of the situation. |
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:# I notice SandyGeorgia has found another article with problems and stubbed it |
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:# I start setting up the CCI case page for the cleanup process |
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:# I added the connection to the existing CCI page as background |
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:# I post a link to the CCI page on the talk page, directly beneath SandyGeorgia's response as it happened. |
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:# I drive home, waiting to see who would show up on my talk page, and brace myself for a long night. |
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{{cob}} |
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: [[User talk:Amalthea|<span style="font-variant:small-caps;color:#832">Amalthea</span>]] 17:00, 3 February 2012 (UTC) |
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I would like to point out that my second question above, ''Futhermore, is the arbitration committee aware of any other heretofore undisclosed facts regarding Rlevse's behavior that would materially affect a ban discussion involving him?'', has still not yet been answered. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 14:31, 3 February 2012 (UTC) |
I would like to point out that my second question above, ''Futhermore, is the arbitration committee aware of any other heretofore undisclosed facts regarding Rlevse's behavior that would materially affect a ban discussion involving him?'', has still not yet been answered. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 14:31, 3 February 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:01, 3 February 2012
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Rlevse sockpuppetry
It has come to light that for the last six months, Rlevse has been editing Wikipedia using a sockpuppet, user:PumpkinSky. PumpkinSky created numerous copyvios, which was exactly the same behavior that brought Rlevse down. Using a sockpuppet was also a violation of the rules governing "right to vanish" which Rlevse exercised.
Were any members of the arbitration committee aware of Rlevse's sockpuppetry? Raul654 (talk) 20:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- More generally, are arbs aware of any editors violating RTV or CLEANSTART to disrupt FAC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:07, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- The first time the Committee as a body knew of the sock puppetry—and, indeed, the first time PumpkinSky's name appears in any Committee correspondence at all—was earlier today. I can't speak for whether any individual current or former arbitrator might have been aware of the account earlier; personally, however, I rather doubt Rlevse would have communicated with anyone on the Committee, as our relationship with him subsequent to his departure has been, for lack of a better word, strained.
- As for Sandy's question, I'm not aware of anything in that regard, although we haven't really gone looking. While we've obviously been informed of the discussions taking place at FAC, I think the general feeling on the Committee is that they're an internal FAC matter and not something for us to get involved in. Kirill [talk] [prof] 21:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Since Sandy is being coy, allow me to be blunt. Pumpkinsky was one of the handful of people who pushed strongly for the FAC RFC. There's another user there, Alarbus, who pushed strongly for the RFC whom we also suspect of being an old editor who edits under a new name. (Sandy and I have our suspicions as to who he was previously, but I won't share them publicly) Is that, in fact, the case? Raul654 (talk) 21:27, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- There are three grinding an axe: Rlevse, TCO who unvanished, and Alarbus who appears to be a returning user, violating CLEANSTART to further a grudge against Raul and me. Considering his likely past accounts, and that he is revisiting old grudges with Raul and me at FAC, and that the arbs are likely aware of his old accounts-- no, it's not internal at all. Raul has overwhelming support in the RFC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Since Sandy is being coy, allow me to be blunt. Pumpkinsky was one of the handful of people who pushed strongly for the FAC RFC. There's another user there, Alarbus, who pushed strongly for the RFC whom we also suspect of being an old editor who edits under a new name. (Sandy and I have our suspicions as to who he was previously, but I won't share them publicly) Is that, in fact, the case? Raul654 (talk) 21:27, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, Kirill-- glad to hear that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Further to this, may I ask arbitrators and/or former arbitrators to comment on User:BarkingMoon, who quit 2 days before PumpkinSky started. At that time (July 2011) several editors thought BarkingMoon might be Rlevse. The latest information adds to that case, with one checkuser also finding it convincing. According to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Mattisse/Archive#29_June_2011, information about this case was known to former arbitrators such as John Vandenberg, and current ones such as Hersfold. It is possible that unfortunate decisions were made at that time, but hindsight is 20-20, so my main concern is looking forward: there may be an ongoing pattern of behavior by Rlevse here, which needs to be checked, as it has become disruptive. Geometry guy 22:49, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Note, it has been a very long time since we've seen Thatcher round these parts: I recall he was quite the competent one. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:49, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- I echo Kirill's comment. Of course we were not aware. AGK [•] 00:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Of what? An echo adds nothing. The question here is about the awareness of Arbitrators to previous socking by Rlevse, in particular, as BarkingMoon. The silence confirms to me that this was Rlevse. So, what gives? Geometry guy 00:49, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, Rlevse was insistent that BarkingMoon was not him, but was associated with him...a student/family member/associate... can't remember and the search on my email is crap. He was really really insistent on this. BarkingMoon quit before a decision on what to do was made. At that point, Rlevse had never socked (as far as anyone knows) and people who knew him (I didn't) found it hard to believe he would lie so insistently. He did admit to being PumpkinSky when challenged - which was today...yesterday (1 Feb). I can appreciate him wanting to Cleanstart, but he really can't - there is too large a pile of shit still to be shovelled in respect of checking his edits. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- OK. Now that we all know that you all knew about the likelihood of inappropriate editing in conjunction with his wife JoJo, per correspondence with Will Beback, please explain why this (the allegation that BarkingMoon was a family member or associate) didn't send up red flags. This is getting curiouser and curiouser, and I hope you can understand that I am not humored that Raul/FAC paid the price with sustained disruption for what is looking more and more like an ArbCom failure to act. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:42, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, Rlevse was insistent that BarkingMoon was not him, but was associated with him...a student/family member/associate... can't remember and the search on my email is crap. He was really really insistent on this. BarkingMoon quit before a decision on what to do was made. At that point, Rlevse had never socked (as far as anyone knows) and people who knew him (I didn't) found it hard to believe he would lie so insistently. He did admit to being PumpkinSky when challenged - which was today...yesterday (1 Feb). I can appreciate him wanting to Cleanstart, but he really can't - there is too large a pile of shit still to be shovelled in respect of checking his edits. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Very unfortunate figure of speech, the vast majority of the mainspace edits are certainly constructive, not "shit". Amalthea 01:16, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I am fully aware of BarkingMoon's denials and am not interested in figures of speech: I followed this quite closely at the time. That Rlevse denied it privately, and pointed Arbcom to associated editors is news to me, so thanks for commenting on that. I look forward to you and other arbitrators refining your searches on previous emails, and commenting much more openly. Geometry guy 01:25, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Rlevse was a good guy, though flawed. He left, I guess, not because we didn't want him, but out of shame. I'd like to think we'll welcome him back, though no argument that copyvio habits need to be nipped. Let's not take a hard line trying to preserve the fiction of RTV. If an RTV-cleanstarter is listening, I'd advise that he should stick quietly to mainspace for a couple of years. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:42, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I can only assume that editors making posts like this are blissfully unaware of what has been done to FAC over recent weeks to months. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, was blissfully unaware. Without question, a returned Rlevse should not be anywhere near FAC. That would be deceptive and disruptive if true. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Pumpkin on Rauls' talk
- Pumpkin at WT:FAC
- Pumpkin at the RFC fueled by a small handful of editors, including Pumpkin (where those editors have been found to be in a substantial minority, yet have visited untold disruption upon FAC in past months).
- So, if we have another CLEANSTART issue, are the arbs going to ignore it, too? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:44, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, was blissfully unaware. Without question, a returned Rlevse should not be anywhere near FAC. That would be deceptive and disruptive if true. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I can only assume that editors making posts like this are blissfully unaware of what has been done to FAC over recent weeks to months. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Is the arbitration committee aware of any other accounts currently or previously used by Rlevse? (This includes Barkingmoon) This is the same question that John Vandenberg refused to answer last year on the ground that "if BarkingMoon is Rlevse, they have done a fairly decent job of a clean start", which is clearly no longer the case. Raul654 (talk) 00:46, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Not sure how you're reading that as a refusal to answer. Anyway, no Rlevse has never declared any alternative accounts while I've been around, and until ... yesterday it is now... no-one has come and said "editor X is Rlevse", except for the BarkingMoon account. As I said above, Rlevse said he wasn't BarkingMoon, but they were related in some way. Those who felt they knew him did not think he would lie, and BarkingMoon left the project before any final decision was made. I guess people will form their own opinion depending on whether they believe Rlevse or not. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:10, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- ... or whether they believe the Arbitration Committee or not. Malleus Fatuorum 01:20, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed; these responses look a bit different in the new light of Will Beback's information. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- ... or whether they believe the Arbitration Committee or not. Malleus Fatuorum 01:20, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Not sure how you're reading that as a refusal to answer. Anyway, no Rlevse has never declared any alternative accounts while I've been around, and until ... yesterday it is now... no-one has come and said "editor X is Rlevse", except for the BarkingMoon account. As I said above, Rlevse said he wasn't BarkingMoon, but they were related in some way. Those who felt they knew him did not think he would lie, and BarkingMoon left the project before any final decision was made. I guess people will form their own opinion depending on whether they believe Rlevse or not. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:10, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Re: "Not sure how you're reading that as a refusal to answer." -- Did you read Vandenberg's statement? "The committee is not aware of any reason for any action by anyone in this matter at this time... the other suspect (Rlevse) is not under any sanction... The community needs to first decide whether there is sufficient grounds to require that BarkingMoon disclose their prior identity. There are only a few instances of BarkingMoon having made references to their prior identity, and if BarkingMoon is Rlevse, they have done a fairly decent job of a clean start, with a completely different focus and now demonstrating proficiency in German." - Notice that nowhere in this carefully phrased paragraph does Vandenberg actually answer the question of whether or not Barkingmoon is or is not Rlevse (and whether or not the Arbcom is aware of it). This omission was not an accidental. Raul654 (talk) 01:28, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- And I'll add to Raul's post that this concerns me wrt John Vandenberg's involvement in the other possible CLEANSTART case mentioned (Alarbus), since this past feedback makes it unlikely anything will be addressed on that issue, hence I haven't bothered. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:39, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- I think there's clear prima facie evidence of corruption within ArbCom, in the way that it deals differently with different editors. The essence of a fair system is consistency, of which we see none. Malleus Fatuorum 01:44, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) What they said. Geometry guy 01:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- ooooh myyyyy, this is a side of G guy I've never seen before! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:54, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Don't get too excited Sandy: I was commenting on the thread before the post by Malleus (hence the "ec"). However, there are serious questions here, and serious questions demand serious answers, so I am happy to add my support to that expectation. Geometry guy 02:07, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- ooooh myyyyy, this is a side of G guy I've never seen before! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:54, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
I have another question. Amalthea discovered Rlevse was socking, and the arbs found out sometime today. Thatcher edited CLEANSTART yesterday [1] (ok, pehaps unrelated, could be extreme coincidence, or related to the Fae situation). I happened to discover that Amalthea knew Rlevse was socking because I monitor WP:DYK/REMOVED, and followed the entry to discover the CCI. So ... was Rlevse going to be allowed to continue disrupting FAC if I hadn't happened upon this and brought it to Raul's attention? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Seeing shadows behind every tree, I guess. My edits were prompted by the Fae situation, but also because they are true. Rlevse's short fuse was in evidence before he even became an Arbitrator; unfortunately not enough people recognized it for the red flag it obviously was. Thatcher 03:26, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thatcher, I was pleasantly surprised to see you'd edited yesterday, and suspected it was the Fae situation that caught your eye. Oh if only you would stick around, I really miss your common sense.
Amalthea's email was received on Arbcom-L nine hours ago - that's all. Probably half the committee hasn't even read it yet; I only read it about an hour ago. Certainly none of us has had time to review all the edits made by the account, and at this point the community is way ahead of anything we might do, if there was anything that required Arbcom doing. The account is blocked. The CCI is started. As to the BarkingMoon account, while there was certainly some suggestive evidence, there was also some contradictory and pretty-well-impossible-to-fake technical evidence against it, which is why the checkusers couldn't confirm any connection between the BarkingMoon and Rlevse accounts. As is standard when the technical evidence can't absolutely support a conclusion, the Committee points to the ability of the community to impose its own sanctions based on editing behaviour that is unacceptable (whether by personal attacks, copyvios, or other disruption). Myself, what few edits I'd seen before by PumpkinSky wouldn't have led me to think it was a return of Rlevse; on a quick look at some of the non-article edits, my first thought would have been a different previous account and I'm pretty sure others posting in this thread can think of a few "frequent flyers" this could have been. I don't see any emails sent to Arbcom by PumpkinSky, ever, nor does he show up on a search of my arbcom or personal emails either. Arbcom certainly doesn't know the back stories of every account editing Wikipedia, nor do we monitor the activities on every page of the project, and frankly that's way, way beyond the job description. Amalthea did good work here, and that should be recognised. But not knowing that a certain former editor has returned under a new username is not a failing of Arbcom or of Functionaries. I rather doubt anyone wants to participate in that kind of a police state. Risker (talk) 03:29, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- To be perfectly blunt, the amount of email ArbCom is receiving at the moment is too much for me to follow in a timely manner. I've just now commented on the email. Rather than corruption, what we have is an enthusiastic new arbitrator who has made it his or her mission to reply to everything the committee receives, copying the entire committee in the process since we have no CRM solution, as well as a ton of legitimate and important email re: vetting the new AUSC members and the occasional email re: one of our open cases. Jclemens (talk) 03:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- (e.c.) According to Risker immediately above Jclemens' post: "As is standard when the technical evidence can't absolutely support a conclusion, the Committee points to the ability of the community to impose its own sanctions based on editing behaviour that is unacceptable (whether by personal attacks, copyvios, or other disruption)." This brings to my mind the fuss over the current ScottyBerg where the technical evidence supports Scotty and his alleged sockmaster using the same ISP and both being in New York City, which clearly does not absolutely support a conclusion. Yet, the community is denied even a summary of the editing behaviour behind its (apparently infaliable) conclusion, nor has any substantial evidence of unacceptable behaviour (other than socking) been suggested. So, is Risker wrong sbout standard practice, or was it abandoned in Scotty's case, or is there some other explanation for the substantial discrepancy in handling the two cases? EdChem (talk) 03:59, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
- You know it's funny, people keep saying "you won't give us the evidence" and I don't know why. I've pointed anyone who asked at all the evidence there is. The Mantanmoreland SPI is onwiki. All the socks are listed. The contribs of all the socks are available for you to run any comparison tool you like. Everyone knows that the allegation is that Mantanmoreland is Weiss, and that he edits the same stuff as he blogs. Weiss's blog is online. You can do the comparisons yourself, and if you don't think it's enough evidence, then of course you are entitled to say that. There's no reason in this case for the community not to consider whether they would block/unblock based on the whole set of circumstances. Picking sox is rarely an exact science - I can't do Count Iblis's maths, but he's right that very often it is a percentages game. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I had some conversations with Pumpkinsky and hadn't cottoned on, although in retrospect it looks much clearer. The existence of yet further copyvios is concerning and needs investigation obviously. I'd add the committee only became aware of it as a body today. As an arb and member of a committee, speaking for myself, I have found the situations where one suspects but cannot prove y=x as frustrating as one often needs to avoid speculation and stick to facts, moreso than as a lone editor. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
@Edchem - there are different issues with each case, and each has factors unique to it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict)@Edchem, perhaps I have misworded that somewhat. I was referring to situations where there is technical evidence that contradicts the conclusions being drawn based on editing behaviour. In the case of ScottyBerg, there is no such contradiction. There have been a couple of accounts that users have been convinced for various reasons was the return of a banned user, but technical evidence has directly contradicted it. Simply put, if an account is behaving very badly, it doesn't really matter what the technical results say, the community is well within its rights to sanction the account directly (i.e., without the socking accusation attached), and the community doesn't really need Arbcom to give its blessing to that. Risker (talk) 04:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Under controversial circumstances
I think a very good case has been made here and on the Administrators' Noticeboard that there should be a [1] after Rlevse's entry at Wikipedia:Former administrators. What mechanism is in place to get that done? Do I need to file a formal request or can ArbCom just take the initiative and make an official statement to this effect? 28bytes (talk) 03:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
It used to be that a few editors updated the former admin list including me. At first this wasn't considered under crowd, just a dramatic way of leaving the project and hoping he will come back someway, something that is kinda often in administrators. But considering now the sockpuppet mess and attacks and so fourth, it's clear that Rlevse will never get his tools back without an RFA. I did add a 1 next to Rlevse name as he was blocked indef, but got reverted. This is common sense under a cloud, unfortunately. Secret account 03:24, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- First off, Arbcom hasn't used the "under a cloud" terminology in at least four years, and it's time for the community to catch up here; I've changed the heading of this section. Secondly, this is a dead horse. Does anyone think that Rlevse is going to waltz back onto the project, pop over to the Bureaucrat's noticeboard, and be handed his bits back? The question should be directed to bureaucrats, not Arbcom, per the policy. Risker (talk) 04:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) I reverted Secret because the specific text of the footnote did not apply to this situation. However, I would not re-grant admin or crat tools to Rlevse if he were to request them based on my own subjective judgment of there being a cloud and I suspect all my colleague-crats would behave the same way. But, he has not requested it, so #4 does not apply and Arbcom hasn't ruled, so #1 does not apply. MBisanz talk 04:35, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Bureaucrat note: Speaking with the 'crathat on, in my opinion, I concur with Matt in that Rlevese would not be granted the tools upon request. An RtV is not a wikibreak; an RtV is not even a retirement. An RtV is a deliberate severing of all ties with Wikipedia. If someone requests, and is successsful in having RtV implemented, that account is consigned to history and all rights are null and void. Even if the user returns (at best, they regret their vanishing and wish to return, at worst they are violating the terms of RtV) they are "brand new". It is the community's right to link the returnee with the vanished account, but that is a matter of historical reference; no rights should be returned. The returned user is, of course, welcome to request Rollback/Reviewer from an admin, and undergo RfX should they desire to return to maintenance work. It is a matter of common sense, however, that former account activity can be and will be linked in to any such request if the relationship is know at the time of the RfX. -- Avi (talk) 05:38, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- As for "cloud" and other bureacratic weather phenomena, my understanding is that term was a poor description of the real issue, which is "relinquishing the tools to avoid scrutiny or sanction by the wikipedia community." When someone is undergoing an RfAr, or a block/ban discussion on AN, and voluntarily relinquishes the tools to either 1) escape the stigma of having them removed forcibly or 2) to prevent further sanctions (such as a block) from being applied, or prevent further scrutiny (such as ArbCom accepting a case), that is a situation in which we do not automatically return the tools. If someone had their account hacked, the tools should not be returned until their is some sort of proof (committed ID, signed PGP note, ArbCom telling us 'crats straight out) that the original user has control of the account. If someone asks for a wikibreak, or a wikisysopbreak, or relinquishes the tools in a fit of pique due to an on-wiki confrontation, that is not an issue. It is my opinion that even a run-of-the mill retirement does not preclude tool restoration—we don't even remove the tools until a specified period of non-use has occurred. Regardless, it is my opinion in this particular case that Rleves's reason for leaving is irrelevant as RtV would preclude the rights as I write above. -- Avi (talk) 05:49, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Avi's opinion on RtV and not returning tools to someone who unvanishes without them going through the full RfA or RfB process. I also agree with his description of what is and is not a "cloud". ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 07:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I want to repeat here what I told Avi off-wiki: his post above covers the issue of RtV in a way that I'd never really considered, and I find his points to be very cogent and entirely supportable. Thanks for explaining the "bureaucrat mindset" so well - perhaps it would be useful to include something about this at WP:RTV and possibly in relation to the bureaucrat procedures. Clarifying policy interpretation in a way that I think just about every user can understand and "buy into" is a rare and appreciated event. Risker (talk) 16:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Fresh batch of questions
Is the arbitration committee aware of any heretofore undisclosed misbehavior Rlevse committed? Specifically as this might have concerned user:jojo? Raul654 (talk) 01:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- User:JoJo. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:55, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Futhermore, is the arbitration committee aware of any other heretofore undisclosed facts regarding Rlevse's behavior that would materially affect a ban discussion involving him? Raul654 (talk) 02:46, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Risker, you said:
As to the BarkingMoon account, while there was certainly some suggestive evidence, there was also some contradictory and pretty-well-impossible-to-fake technical evidence against it, which is why the checkusers couldn't confirm any connection between the BarkingMoon and Rlevse accounts.
Considering that ArbCom knew there was evidence of possible inappropriate editing with his wife's account, and also considering that as a former arb, Rlevse knew how technical CU data worked hence knew how to avoid detection, what can you add now that the cat's out of the bag to convince us that ArbCom didn't leave FAC swinging in the breeze with someone looking to grind an axe against "FAC leadership"?
Specifically, it's beginning to look like you all knew that Rlevse was the arb-leaker, and were trying to keep a lid on the damage he could do. Understandable, but FAC has been out here swinging in the breeze, with no help at all from the arbs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I can tell you categorically that Rlevse was not the "arb-leaker", and you need to stop casting aspersions like that, SandyGeorgia. Rlevse did not have access to much of the information that was leaked from arbcom-L as he had been removed from the list months before. Risker (talk) 04:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Since AFAIK I've never seen this conclusively stated anywhere before, I appreciate the feedback, and would thank you not to categorize a "beginning to look like" speculation as "casting aspersions". If the arbs have stated this before I missed it: communication is good. I realize that the arbs are apparently considerably overworked right now, and the community may be moving faster than you all are able to keep up on a number of difficult matters, but that's no reason to assume "casting of aspersions" because we're not all on the same page yet-- particulary when we're getting conflicting and incomplete information from different CUs and arbs. I trust this will eventually all get sorted-- but it's not now, and when on the one hand arbs and CUs tell us that technical evidence is inconclusive so take it to the community, but on the other hand when we do that, we're threatened by other CUs and arbs not to continue this line of reasoning, where does that leave us with respect to investigating my very first question in this thread? It looks to me like when even the CUs and arbs aren't on the same page, regular editors get shot if they try to sort matters that can't be decided on technical evidence.
Risker, you said at WP:AN something to the effect of me having seen similar aimed my way so I should understand: you betcha. I hope I'm within my right to say-- without an arb coming over to lecture me on my talk-- that I don't feel I've been accorded the same protection I'm seeing extended to some others. Not in this matter, and not in any former arbitration-- it's what I've come to expect. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, you say "it's beginning to look like you all knew that Rlevse was the arb-leaker". I'm rather disturbed that you don't see that as not only a statement of fact that Rlevse was the arb-leaker, but that arbitrators knew he was the arb-leaker. What we know is that there's absolutely no basis for either of those ideas, as he'd been off the mailing list since November 2010, and there was plenty of material leaked from after that date. When arbitrators resign, they're removed from the mailing list within a few hours, depending on how long it takes for a list administrator to get to a secure computer.
I'm concerned, as well, about all these suggestions that imply Rlevse was doing something wrong in closing RFAs in which his wife participated. Since both Rlevse and JoJo were always upfront about their relationship, and indeed it would have been widely known amongst bureaucrats and many editors who interacted with either of them, why was this not seen as a concern when Rlevse was actually closing the RFAs? I see absolutely no indication that *anyone* had a problem with it at the time. It would have been appropriate to raise these questions when Rlevse was an active bureaucrat, but applying personal interpretations of behavioural rules retroactively now that an editor has fallen into disfavour is a little much. I see Raul654 expressing concerns about this as well, and he *is* a bureaucrat who would have been in a direct position to express concerns and possibly take action at the time. Risker (talk) 15:51, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Omniscient, I am not. Had I noticed at the time that Rlevse was closing RFAs in which his wife participated, I would probably have said something. In point of fact, Will Beback is the only person who seems to have noticed. Raul654 (talk) 15:55, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Risker, wrt access to the maillist, you knew all that: I didn't, and I doubt the average editor did either. It's all very confusing to some of us, and implies that the leaks *have* to have come from an active arb, which points in bad directions. (please feel free to clarify without shooting me.) You might interpret questions/concerns in that regard.
Same wrt Rlevse's wife; I worked closely with him, and I wasn't aware his wife was an editor, as far as I can recall (growin' old ain't for sissies). In fact, when this info surfaced yesterday, I had to go check all his FACs to be sure she hadn't declared on them. Since I don't have tools, I can't resurrect Rlevse's old user page to see if that info was declared, but I was quite surprised to hear it. It's hard for me to imagine any scenario (whether it was written into policy then or now) whereby anyone would excuse a person in a position of authority for closing any discussion participated in by a partner; that's just common sense, even if it wasn't written into any policy then, or isn't now. It's as clear as COI can get. I wouldn't accept or excuse it if it happened at FAC, and wouldn't expect anyone exercising any authority anywhere on Wikipedia to accept it.
Anyway, yes, fatigue is high, it's going to take a lot of work to rebuild FAC after the quadruple whammy including Sue Gardner's jabs, so I apologize for my recent "attitude", and need to get to work on the much needed rebuilding of FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:18, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I can confirm that Rlevse's user page stated directly, in the first paragraph at the top of the page, who his wife was, with a link to her userpage. 28bytes (talk) 16:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you, 28: I don't know if I never went to his user page (I rarely visit anyone's userpage), or if my memory stinks, but ... oh well. At least I didn't miss something at FAC (I do try to decipher any relationships with reviewers I'm not familiar with, and once found someone's grandmother registering an account to support her grandson's FAC). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I can confirm that Rlevse's user page stated directly, in the first paragraph at the top of the page, who his wife was, with a link to her userpage. 28bytes (talk) 16:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, you say "it's beginning to look like you all knew that Rlevse was the arb-leaker". I'm rather disturbed that you don't see that as not only a statement of fact that Rlevse was the arb-leaker, but that arbitrators knew he was the arb-leaker. What we know is that there's absolutely no basis for either of those ideas, as he'd been off the mailing list since November 2010, and there was plenty of material leaked from after that date. When arbitrators resign, they're removed from the mailing list within a few hours, depending on how long it takes for a list administrator to get to a secure computer.
- Since AFAIK I've never seen this conclusively stated anywhere before, I appreciate the feedback, and would thank you not to categorize a "beginning to look like" speculation as "casting aspersions". If the arbs have stated this before I missed it: communication is good. I realize that the arbs are apparently considerably overworked right now, and the community may be moving faster than you all are able to keep up on a number of difficult matters, but that's no reason to assume "casting of aspersions" because we're not all on the same page yet-- particulary when we're getting conflicting and incomplete information from different CUs and arbs. I trust this will eventually all get sorted-- but it's not now, and when on the one hand arbs and CUs tell us that technical evidence is inconclusive so take it to the community, but on the other hand when we do that, we're threatened by other CUs and arbs not to continue this line of reasoning, where does that leave us with respect to investigating my very first question in this thread? It looks to me like when even the CUs and arbs aren't on the same page, regular editors get shot if they try to sort matters that can't be decided on technical evidence.
- (edit conflict) We were first informed of a potential issue with JoJo's participation in RFAs closed by Rlevse in early November 2010, shortly after the latter had left the Committee. The substantive concern expressed to us at the time was that JoJo had acted—intentionally or otherwise—as a proxy for Rlevse; however, we were also told that "no RfA was so irregular that it's invalid, so there's nothing more that needs to be done". The fact that we were not actually being asked to intervene, coupled with the fact that Rlevse had by that point departed—permanently, as far as anyone could tell at the time—from the project led us to conclude that no substantive action with regard to this report was necessary.
- The BarkingMoon account came to our attention in late June 2011, when we were asked to look into the open SPI on that account. The technical evidence regarding the account was ambiguous; while the CheckUser data was suggestive of a connection to Rlevse, it was inconsistent with other information available to the Committee. When directly asked about the BarkingMoon account, Rlevse denied that it was operated by him, and provided an alternative explanation that was consistent with both sets of technical data. The Committee was divided as to whether this explanation was sufficient; however, as we were discussing the matter, BarkingMoon left the project. Given that our (almost exclusive) focus at the time was dealing with the arbcom-l leaks—indeed, many arbitrators did not participate in the discussion regarding BarkingMoon due to concerns regarding the security of the mailing list—we did not pursue the matter further.
- (The earlier concerns with regard to JoJo were brought up in the course of the Committee's discussion of BarkingMoon; however, as those concerns had been related to proxying by a distinct second person rather than any use of multiple accounts by Rlevse himself, they were not seen as particularly relevant to the questions raised by the technical evidence in the case.)
- It is highly unlikely that Rlevse was in any way responsible for the arbcom-l leaks which took place last year, since much of the leaked material consisted of discussions which took place after he had left the Committee. For example, the first emails disclosed by the leaker were from a conversation which took place in June 2011, by which point Rlevse had not been subscribed to the mailing list for months.
- As far as leaving FAC to swing in the breeze is concerned: even if the Committee made a mistake when dealing with BarkingMoon—and I agree that there is certainly a good argument to be made that we did, particularly given subsequent revelations—the recent disruption was caused by PumpkinSky, an account which had never been the subject of investigation or complaints. I don't think we can be blamed for failing to intervene in this case, given that the first we heard of any specific concerns was after Amalthea had already determined PumpkinSky to be a sockpuppet; we certainly don't investigate the identities of everyone who comments at FAC (and would, I suspect, be rightly pilloried if we did do so). Kirill [talk] [prof] 04:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. Follow up question. In the email exchange between Will Beback and Rlevse, Will states (paraphrased by me) that NewYorkBrad had said the Jojo allegations would be dealt with if Rlevse returned. So, did the Committee take on the responsibility of dealing with the Jojo matter? If so, was Will Beback authorized by the Committee to threaten Rlevse with publicizing the information if Rlevse didn't promise to banish himself forever from WP? If not, has Will Beback acted properly on behalf of the Committee in this situation? Cla68 (talk) 06:00, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I was not acting on behalf of the ArbCom. It's welcome to do whatever it likes in this matter. When I commented, this issue was being discussed by the community on AN rather than on an ArbCom page. Will Beback talk 06:24, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Why were you, then, acting on this information if ArbCom had said they would handle it? Did you notify ArbCom before asking Rlevse to banish himself or else you would publicize his wife's editing history? If so, could you identify which Arbitrator authorized you to act on their behalf and use the tactic you used to try to coerce Rlevse into banishing himself? Cla68 (talk) 06:29, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- User:JoJo's editing history is in the public record. All I've done is note an obvious but overlooked problem with how the Rlevse and Jojo accounts seemingly worked together, and speculated that they were controlled by the same person. I don't think the ArbCom has done anything wrong in this and I don't think accusing them of malfeasance is helpful. But if you think that the ArbCom should have done more then you're welcome to say so. Will Beback talk 06:35, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I believe the debating tactic you are using here, in place of answering the questions, is called straw man, which is a logical fallacy. Anyway, I welcome the Committee's response to my questions. Cla68 (talk) 06:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- A few further questions, as I don't recall ever seeing before an administrator threatening someone with exposing the editing history of their wife's account if they don't self-ban. Could the Committee confirm whether this is a normal and/or accepted administrative technique? Does the Committee condone or approve of Will Beback's approach in this situation? If so, could the Committee recommend some wording that could be added to WP`s administrative policies that would give guidance to WP administrators on how to effectively use this technique to force editors who have departed under a cloud to take the further step of permanently banning themselves? Cla68 (talk) 10:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- You are misinterpreting and misrepresenting this. It is standard practice that conduct issues don't necessarily need to be explored through RfC or Arbcom case if the user in question stops editing permanently, with the reservation that it will be picked up if the user decides to return to editing. Since Rlevse had vanished Will accepted one of his concerns as fait accompli and cleaned up the other without fuss, fuss that would not have improved Wikipedia. He also informed Arbcom in case Rlevse approached them to un-vanish (which does not mean those concerns are owned by ARBCOM now).
Now that Rlevse had returned and re-retired and we have a ban discussion, it is valid and necessary to reconsider bringing those concerns to the community.
I agree that the e-mail was a bit unfortunate since it was bound to be misinterpreted, but the good-faith interpretation is that Will still only inquired whether it's necessary to bring those old concerns up or not.
For the record, I often approach editors and for example inform them to limit themselves to one account else I'll have no choice but to open an SPI case and tie their accounts together. That is not blackmail. Amalthea 12:11, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- You are misinterpreting and misrepresenting this. It is standard practice that conduct issues don't necessarily need to be explored through RfC or Arbcom case if the user in question stops editing permanently, with the reservation that it will be picked up if the user decides to return to editing. Since Rlevse had vanished Will accepted one of his concerns as fait accompli and cleaned up the other without fuss, fuss that would not have improved Wikipedia. He also informed Arbcom in case Rlevse approached them to un-vanish (which does not mean those concerns are owned by ARBCOM now).
- A few further questions, as I don't recall ever seeing before an administrator threatening someone with exposing the editing history of their wife's account if they don't self-ban. Could the Committee confirm whether this is a normal and/or accepted administrative technique? Does the Committee condone or approve of Will Beback's approach in this situation? If so, could the Committee recommend some wording that could be added to WP`s administrative policies that would give guidance to WP administrators on how to effectively use this technique to force editors who have departed under a cloud to take the further step of permanently banning themselves? Cla68 (talk) 10:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I believe the debating tactic you are using here, in place of answering the questions, is called straw man, which is a logical fallacy. Anyway, I welcome the Committee's response to my questions. Cla68 (talk) 06:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- User:JoJo's editing history is in the public record. All I've done is note an obvious but overlooked problem with how the Rlevse and Jojo accounts seemingly worked together, and speculated that they were controlled by the same person. I don't think the ArbCom has done anything wrong in this and I don't think accusing them of malfeasance is helpful. But if you think that the ArbCom should have done more then you're welcome to say so. Will Beback talk 06:35, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Why were you, then, acting on this information if ArbCom had said they would handle it? Did you notify ArbCom before asking Rlevse to banish himself or else you would publicize his wife's editing history? If so, could you identify which Arbitrator authorized you to act on their behalf and use the tactic you used to try to coerce Rlevse into banishing himself? Cla68 (talk) 06:29, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- I was not acting on behalf of the ArbCom. It's welcome to do whatever it likes in this matter. When I commented, this issue was being discussed by the community on AN rather than on an ArbCom page. Will Beback talk 06:24, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. Follow up question. In the email exchange between Will Beback and Rlevse, Will states (paraphrased by me) that NewYorkBrad had said the Jojo allegations would be dealt with if Rlevse returned. So, did the Committee take on the responsibility of dealing with the Jojo matter? If so, was Will Beback authorized by the Committee to threaten Rlevse with publicizing the information if Rlevse didn't promise to banish himself forever from WP? If not, has Will Beback acted properly on behalf of the Committee in this situation? Cla68 (talk) 06:00, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- @ Kirill, thank you again. As can be seen from your response relative to Keegan's posts at WP:AN, [2] the "community" is still getting conflicting information, and even being threatened not to continue to try to sort this matter (see Keegan's repetitive posts at WP:AN, which have likely served to effectively shut down any consensus that might develop there). Risker and you clarify that technical information was ambiguous, the committee was divided (in other words, the situation was not at all conclusive) while Keegan is stating something entirely different (in fact, quite strongly and with the suggestion of a threat not to continue) at WP:AN, where the community is trying to weigh behavioral evidence, which is precisely what it is encouraged to do in cases like this. So, again, this goes back to my very first question in this thread: when we have editors who may know how to evade CU technical information, when we have confusing RTVs, CLEANSTARTS involved, yet CUs and (former) arbs shut down discussion (much of this could have been avoided if John vandenburg spoke as clearly as Kirill does), where does that leave the community? My guess is that it leaves us ... silenced via threat. Which is precisely what I perceive happened on my talk page yesterday and why I responded as I did, both here and there. With issues left unresolved. With FAC swinging in the wind, and I might add-- badly damaged. I know the arbs are overworked, I know you can't be aware of and on top of everything that happens out here, this is moving fast, but my question was raised at 21:07, 1 February 2012 (UTC), and Kirill's answer was "we haven't really gone looking". OK, that's fair-- so please try to call off the threats from folks trying to shut down editors who are trying to do the looking in the interim. It's not only that emotions are high: it's that FAC has been badly damaged, and I hope it isn't later discovered (as in the Rlevse case) that the information the community got out of CUs and arbs was conflicting and inconclusive, yet discussion was shutdown via threat. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
On another matter-- related to me being unaware of how these things work-- again, I would not have even been aware of this matter had I not stumbled across a CCI opened by Amalthea, where Amalthea stated that PumpkinSky was Rlevse. It was always my understanding that there had to be cause to run a CU: I'm confused about what brought Amalthea to this matter to begin with. I'd appreciate not being shot at again for asking a question related to things I don't understand on Wiki. What caused Amalthea-- a CU-- to look into this matter, and what brought Amalthea's attention to the DYK copyvio? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- How this came to light is extremely banal and completely irrelevant for getting this resolved. Nonetheless, to avoid anyone suspecting subterfuge (Hah, as if…), it is apparently necessary, so here is everything that could possibly be relevant to this in excruciatingly boring detail.
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- Amalthea 17:00, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
I would like to point out that my second question above, Futhermore, is the arbitration committee aware of any other heretofore undisclosed facts regarding Rlevse's behavior that would materially affect a ban discussion involving him?, has still not yet been answered. Raul654 (talk) 14:31, 3 February 2012 (UTC)