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*Is there any particular reason why cases that have some actual consequence, eg a desysop, through a motion are declined instead of accepted and resolved by motion? Makes it a bit more difficult to find later. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17">nableezy</span>]]''' - 07:20, 9 April 2023 (UTC)</small> |
*Is there any particular reason why cases that have some actual consequence, eg a desysop, through a motion are declined instead of accepted and resolved by motion? Makes it a bit more difficult to find later. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17">nableezy</span>]]''' - 07:20, 9 April 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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*:Because they are simple enough to be resolved without a full case. See [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Declined requests]] for all declined cases, including ones resolved by motion. [[User:Animal lover 666|Animal lover]] [[User talk:Animal lover 666||666|]] 08:19, 9 April 2023 (UTC) |
*:Because they are simple enough to be resolved without a full case. See [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Declined requests]] for all declined cases, including ones resolved by motion. [[User:Animal lover 666|Animal lover]] [[User talk:Animal lover 666||666|]] 08:19, 9 April 2023 (UTC) |
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*::Some cases are declined and resolved by motion, others are accepted and resolved by motion. Perhaps it would be better to organise the archive into three sections - full case accepted, resolved by motion, declined - rather than just the two? [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 09:40, 9 April 2023 (UTC) |
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Arbitration motion regarding Dbachmann
- I looked over all the decisions in WP:FORCAUSE as far back as 2017. The reasons cited in the arbcom decisions often included specific actions which led to the desysopping, and in a few cases (Rama, Arthur Rubin, Enigmaman, and BrownHairedGirl), for "failing to meet community expectations". This is the only case I've seen, however, which called out "losing the trust or confidence of the community". How much of that is just random variation of wording by different motion authors over the years vs a deliberate recognition of the sentiment expressed by the community at WP:ANI#Desysop Proposal? -- RoySmith (talk) 19:10, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
- Timestamp comparison:
- ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:14, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think this is a case of ArbCom and the community coming to the same conclusion, perhaps independently, perhaps not; if anything it seems like the ANI thread was informed by the thoughts at the case, not the other way around. I'll note that my vote, which assesses how Dbachmann has lost the community's trust [1], came on April 1, two days before the community request. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:19, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
- As the author of that proposal, I borrowed some wording from old motions, L2 procedure and a few other places. I didn't post it at ANI until April 3rd, but I had been tinkering with the idea in my own userspace a day before the motion was posted at Arbcom.[2] The similarities in wording are probably because we borrowed language from some of the same places. The WordsmithTalk to me 19:34, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the replies. This wasn't just an idle question; as I mentioned on ANI, I'd like to see a community recall process happen. I could potentially see the trust issue being one of the distinctions between arbcom and community desysops, with arbcom's remit generally being specific violations of rules, and the community's being more about loss of trust, since figuring out if the community trusts somebody is mostly what WP:RFA is about. I'm not sure such a clean line could actually be drawn, but it's kind of where my head is. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:25, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
- The problem with a community-based desysop process is that any admin who attempts to handle a highly controversial topic, or take any step against a popular user (remember the Fram case?) would be likely to fall victim to it. This would both tend to scare off admins from these areas, and cause us to loose the few who are brave enough to remain there. Letting ArbCom decide based on community discussion reduces these risks. Animal lover |666| 09:11, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- Does anyone believe there is any merit to tabling the idea of a community-based desysop at WP:VPP? Or is this an issue of jurisdiction that a community discussion cannot and will not resolve? I, for one, have similar thoughts to Animal lover 666. My main concern is that although we'd call it a "community" de-sysop, the fact is that we will not ever get an unbiased cross-representation of the community at any venue such as WP:ANI. I'm thinking back to the ANI discussion we had for the indeffing of FleurDeOdile. Although that one did end up being resolved at ArbCom, it sickened me to my stomach that there was such a large participation of highly involved editors at the previous venue. Once we go down that route, why even bother with asking administrators to be open to WP:RECALL? --⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 14:51, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- We do need more accountability and review (mostly in areas less severe than desysop) But I'd be worried about an angry mob type process at community recall for such a big decision, as well as desysoping for being willing to handle tough areas. North8000 (talk) 16:04, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- As someone who recovered from WP:CDARFC, I can say that working up a proposal for a community-based process is unlikely to be worth the effort. When I did it, way back then, there was a valid case that ArbCom wasn't up to the task. Times have changed, and I believe that the ArbCom of today handles it better than the community could. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:31, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- I believe ArbCom has the following advantages:
- They are members of the community (unlike the Foundation), and understand its dynamic.
- They listen to the community, and generally try to act based on the community's opinion.
- They are not bound by any formal consensus, and can decide to disregard any opinion which appears to be overly biased with no legitimate cause. This allows them to deal with an angry mob.
- They give the admin being discussed a truely fair opportunity to defend themselves, including where BEANS or privacy issues prevent them from telling everything to the whole world.
- Animal lover |666| 21:33, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
- I believe ArbCom has the following advantages:
- As someone who recovered from WP:CDARFC, I can say that working up a proposal for a community-based process is unlikely to be worth the effort. When I did it, way back then, there was a valid case that ArbCom wasn't up to the task. Times have changed, and I believe that the ArbCom of today handles it better than the community could. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:31, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- We do need more accountability and review (mostly in areas less severe than desysop) But I'd be worried about an angry mob type process at community recall for such a big decision, as well as desysoping for being willing to handle tough areas. North8000 (talk) 16:04, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- Does anyone believe there is any merit to tabling the idea of a community-based desysop at WP:VPP? Or is this an issue of jurisdiction that a community discussion cannot and will not resolve? I, for one, have similar thoughts to Animal lover 666. My main concern is that although we'd call it a "community" de-sysop, the fact is that we will not ever get an unbiased cross-representation of the community at any venue such as WP:ANI. I'm thinking back to the ANI discussion we had for the indeffing of FleurDeOdile. Although that one did end up being resolved at ArbCom, it sickened me to my stomach that there was such a large participation of highly involved editors at the previous venue. Once we go down that route, why even bother with asking administrators to be open to WP:RECALL? --⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 14:51, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- The problem with a community-based desysop process is that any admin who attempts to handle a highly controversial topic, or take any step against a popular user (remember the Fram case?) would be likely to fall victim to it. This would both tend to scare off admins from these areas, and cause us to loose the few who are brave enough to remain there. Letting ArbCom decide based on community discussion reduces these risks. Animal lover |666| 09:11, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the replies. This wasn't just an idle question; as I mentioned on ANI, I'd like to see a community recall process happen. I could potentially see the trust issue being one of the distinctions between arbcom and community desysops, with arbcom's remit generally being specific violations of rules, and the community's being more about loss of trust, since figuring out if the community trusts somebody is mostly what WP:RFA is about. I'm not sure such a clean line could actually be drawn, but it's kind of where my head is. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:25, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
- I wonder if it would be an improvement to the process to create a separate subpage of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests for review of administrator conduct, perhaps something like Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Administrator conduct? Currently, all desysop requests are funneled through Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case, but as this case demonstrates, there is occasionally no need to conduct a full arbitration case for issues regarding administrator conduct. The admin conduct review subpage could then be structured to standardize the possible outcomes of such a review: an arb could vote between (1) dismissing the request, (2) summarily warning or admonishing the administrator, (3) WP:LEVEL1 or WP:LEVEL2 emergency desysop, (4) summary desysop (as was done here), (5) "open and suspend case" (e.g. [3]), or (6) open a full arbitration case. Mz7 (talk) 02:13, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
- Why do we need a new venue to do that? Barkeep49 (talk) 04:44, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
- If ArbCom thinks it necessary, I wouldn't oppose it. However, since they can enact motions directly from the case request page, a separate page for this is probably unnecessary bureaucracy. Animal lover |666| 05:12, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
- Why do we need a new venue to do that? Barkeep49 (talk) 04:44, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
- Is there any particular reason why cases that have some actual consequence, eg a desysop, through a motion are declined instead of accepted and resolved by motion? Makes it a bit more difficult to find later. nableezy - 07:20, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
- Because they are simple enough to be resolved without a full case. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Declined requests for all declined cases, including ones resolved by motion. Animal lover |666| 08:19, 9 April 2023 (UTC)