Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk | contribs) →Arithmetic?: We cannot always source trivialities such as 2372+1=2373. Such derivations are trivial for mathematicians (not necessarily logicians!). Such derivations are obvious and never a subject of argument. They should be recognized as impor |
Hans Adler (talk | contribs) →Arithmetic?: why the maths project is deeply concerned |
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::::::The (Bayesian posterior/consequent) probability intervals can be derived using the change-of-variable formula (Radon-Nikodym theorem), just as one can derive 2372+1=2373 using arithmetic principles (which can be challenged and then can be sourced). We cannot always source trivialities such as 2372+1=2373. Such derivations are trivial for mathematicians (not necessarily logicians!). Such derivations are obvious and never a subject of argument. They should be recognized as important for exposition and protected from challenges as "original research by synthesis". |
::::::The (Bayesian posterior/consequent) probability intervals can be derived using the change-of-variable formula (Radon-Nikodym theorem), just as one can derive 2372+1=2373 using arithmetic principles (which can be challenged and then can be sourced). We cannot always source trivialities such as 2372+1=2373. Such derivations are trivial for mathematicians (not necessarily logicians!). Such derivations are obvious and never a subject of argument. They should be recognized as important for exposition and protected from challenges as "original research by synthesis". |
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::::::Mathematicians disagree sometimes on the best way to present material: Criteria include simplicity, generality, insight/surprise, accessibility, relations to other topics. Articles are linearly ordered, and choices must be made. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz|<font style="color:blue;background:yellow;"> '''Kiefer'''.'''Wolfowitz''' </font>]]</span></small> ([[User talk:Kiefer.Wolfowitz#top|Discussion]]) 10:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC) |
::::::Mathematicians disagree sometimes on the best way to present material: Criteria include simplicity, generality, insight/surprise, accessibility, relations to other topics. Articles are linearly ordered, and choices must be made. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz|<font style="color:blue;background:yellow;"> '''Kiefer'''.'''Wolfowitz''' </font>]]</span></small> ([[User talk:Kiefer.Wolfowitz#top|Discussion]]) 10:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC) |
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[[Hard cases make bad law]]. Several policies and guidelines such as [[WP:NOR]] already exhibit the problem that they only make sense in contentious situations and therefore have to be routinely ignored. Prescribing and fixing an interpretation of NOR as it applies to a specific class of articles will exacerbate the problem unless done with extreme care. There is a reason the mathematics project is extremely concerned: |
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* Mathematics articles differ from most other articles in that to a large degree they must teach rather than just inform. (This difference between mathematics articles and most other articles is necessary and not specific to Wikipedia. It reflects special features of mathematical literature and of mathematics education at all levels.) |
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* The main complaint about mathematics articles, and apart from the Monty Hall Problem article and very occasional cranks or self-promoters very much the only contentious issue for mathematics articles is that they tend to be very hard to understand for laypeople. |
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* Making mathematics articles more comprehensible requires the crafting of examples that fit the articles and therefore may not be in the literature. Just copying examples from the literature is a lazy practice that comes very close to plagiarism, even when a source is given, in those cases in which examples are practically arbitrary. |
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* It's extremely tedious and useless work to scour through an extensive didactic literature just to find an obvious example that anyone who knows the field could make up in two minutes. At the other extreme, for many advanced articles such a didactic literature does not exist yet and we would be forced to keep articles unnecessarily technical, essentially parrotting our sources instead of adapting them to our genre (that of an encyclopedia). |
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* Proposed decision 11 does ''not'' just say what NOR says anyway. In a subtle but important way it is considerably stronger. |
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:*NOR: "This policy allows routine mathematical calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, provided editors agree that the arithmetic and its application correctly reflect the sources." |
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:*Proposed decision: "Routine arithmetic calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age are permitted within articles. However, deriving mathematical results from first principles, without reference to a published source, constitutes Original research within the definition used by the English Wikipedia." |
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:Under the standard interpretation of NOR, it is no problem to make up example sentences for a linguistics article, as it is analogous to routine mathematical calculation and not contentious. The proposed, fundamentally new interpretation outlaws non-arithmetical mathematical calculations even though they are analogous to arithmetical calculations, and does so even when they are not contentious. A fortiori this brands the two examples in [[English relative clauses#Restrictive or non-restrictive]] as original research -- unless they have all appeared ''literally'' in a source. [[User:Hans Adler|Hans]] [[User talk:Hans Adler|Adler]] 10:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC) |
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== [[Richard D. Gill]] == |
== [[Richard D. Gill]] == |
Revision as of 10:45, 14 March 2011
Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk) Case clerks: Dougweller (Talk) & X! (Talk) Drafting arbitrators: SirFozzie (Talk) & Elen of the Roads (Talk) |
Arbitrators active on this case
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Finding of fact
One divided by two equals two
Two children are fighting over a piece of chalk. An adult intervenes by breaking the chalk in half and handing a piece to each child. One child immediately sees that division results in more pieces of chalk and, delighted by this bounteous doubling, happily begins doodling. The other child sees that division results in having less chalk and, outraged by this meager halving, throws it away in disgust. Whether or not one of the children's perspectives is unreasonable, neither child is mistaken about the math. The relevance of mathematical "truth" depends upon one's understanding of what the problem is about. (Story adapted from a talk by Ray Bradbury circa 1975) |
A stated finding of fact is [my bold]
"The Monty Hall problem is unusual in that while there are many scholarly sources, the key source is a popular one, and the best known and most often quoted formulation of the problem and it's solution is 'wrong' in terms of advanced probability theory. This has led to a tension in the article between demonstrating the simple proposition in the popular sources, and providing the 'correct' Bayesian formulations of the advanced probability versions".
I am somewhat surprised that the arbitrators seem to have made a decision on what is a matter of fact regarding probability theory, especially as they refuse to be drawn into making a content decision. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- You are probably right about that, it is klutzy phrasing on my part. I will try a rephrase - what I'm trying to explain is why there is a "pov" about a maths problem, given that most people will believe that maths problems only ever have one answer. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- I concur with Martin. It might be more appropriate to express this in terms of that formulation of the problem being open to interpretation. As remarked in the article, "almost all sources make the additional assumptions." It may be noted that scholarly sources find the proffered solution does not satisfy strict readings of the formulation. It might be too much of a stretch to assert that the consensus of scholarly sources finds there is no reasonable interpretation under which the proffered solution is correct. ~ Ningauble (talk) 22:41, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- See if what I have changed it to is any better. I'm not trying to say it what is actually right or wrong, just that there is this viewpoint. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:46, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- Better, but "should not be included in the article" probably overstates the position of the major faction. It seems more a dispute about how to include it, in terms of viewing it as deficient or not. I may suggest alternative language at the Workshop tomorrow, but I fear I lack the wit to achieve brevity. ~ Ningauble (talk) 23:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
- The rewording morphed the statement from being about external factors to being about what "some proponents" allegedly want (and, if you mean to be including me in "some proponents" this is NOT what I want). I think keeping this externally focused would be better. I don't know if it's out of line to make a suggestion, but perhaps something like "In the literature, some proponents of a more complex Bayesian solution argue that the simple solution technically addresses a slightly different problem. This has led to a tension in the article between demonstrating the simple proposition in the popular sources, and providing the more complex Bayesian formulations commonly found in scholarly sources." -- Rick Block (talk) 00:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Good point, that's what I get for rewriting on the fly. It's the external sources that I'm trying to get at, not the view of the article editors. I have left it at 'wrong', as that seems a plain english explanation, which is all that I'm after. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:48, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- The rewording morphed the statement from being about external factors to being about what "some proponents" allegedly want (and, if you mean to be including me in "some proponents" this is NOT what I want). I think keeping this externally focused would be better. I don't know if it's out of line to make a suggestion, but perhaps something like "In the literature, some proponents of a more complex Bayesian solution argue that the simple solution technically addresses a slightly different problem. This has led to a tension in the article between demonstrating the simple proposition in the popular sources, and providing the more complex Bayesian formulations commonly found in scholarly sources." -- Rick Block (talk) 00:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
WP:TECHNICAL and comments by Geometry guy
I have been watchlisting this case for some time, but have been reluctant to contribute because of the endless talk associated with what should be a straightforward and very interesting Wikipedia article.
I am commenting here primarily because of the reference to WP:TECHNICAL, a page whose status has been disputed recently (not by me), and whose nutshell ("Strive to make each part of every article as accessible as possible to the widest audience of readers who are likely to be interested in that material") is based closely on a comment of mine. There are many nuances connected with this nutshell, and arbitrators may be in danger of implicitly making a resolution on content if they do not take on board the distinctions. Geometry guy 00:34, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- I read the whole guide, not just the nutshell. You'll also note I haven't quoted the nutshell. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- You are one of the most incisive and clear thinking arbitrators Elen: that is why I voted for you, after all!
- I have no doubt that you read the whole guide, but please do not rush to respond or conclude: I was providing context for the current form of the guide, which, if you check the talk page and edit history, has been under flux recently. I have more to say, but prefer to encourage editors to read, rather than write, so I will delay further comment. Geometry guy 01:01, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- I see your concern, but the point is not to exclude material because it is too simple. TECHNICAL itself recommends putting the simplest version first, and the more complex material later in the article, so that the person who simply wishes to be better informed can get an insight into the subject, even if they give up as soon as the maths notation, Greek or diagrams appear. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:17, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that my concern was yet clearly enough expressed above for you to "see", but regarding your subsequent comments, I agree with you entirely. Since the current form of WP:TECHNICAL is influenced by my comments, as well as more substantial contributions by editors I greatly respect, such as CBM, my support for the current version is unsurprising.
- Beginning an article with simpler approaches, and discussing more technical details later is, in my view, a no-brainer, yet this has been a significant topic of argument, not only at arbitration here, but throughout the history of the article (which I first encountered in 2007). There have been many discussions about technical content across Wikipedia: the talk page history of WP:SCG provides further examples.
- I do not envy arbitrators who have to provide findings in such complex circumstances. The concern I have is that conclusions drawn here, which may seem reasonable in this case, may inadvertently result in collateral rulings on content which go beyond ArbCom's remit.
- Pause.
- The statement that "routine arithmetic is okay" may suggest that other straightforward logical and mathematical deductions are not acceptable without citation. If A is smaller than B and B is smaller than C, is it okay to deduce that A is smaller than C? What if 10 letters are sent (reliably) to a mailing list of only 10 people and no one on the list receives more than one letter. Is it okay to deduce that everyone on the list receives a letter? Is it okay to deduce that the sum of two even numbers is an even number? If x belongs to a set A, but does not belong to a set B, can we deduce that x does not belong to the intersection of A and B? What if a function f(x) is increasing as a function of x, and its value f(0) at 0 is positive: can we conclude its value f(1) at 1 is also positive? These examples may seem trivial, but it is just as trivial to deduce that a group has only one identity element, or that any function whose domain is a discrete topological space is continuous. Does ArbCom really want to codify which deductions require reference to published sources and which don't? Geometry guy 02:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Our aim is to reflect sources - I guess I always take it to mean thus...I am actually trying to think of an instance where I've done any mathematical inference while writing....and I can't. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- People use mathematical inference (sometimes erroneously) all the time often without realizing it. In this edit for example, you did not feel the need provide a source for the rarity of cultivation being a consequence of the difficulty in propagation. Instead you added further reasons for the difficulty in propagation, which support the implicit logical connection. This is not a shining example, but I took it right from the top of your contribs, without even trying to find anything better. Geometry guy 03:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, the source I added afterwards covers all three points. Hence I didn't have to infer anything as the inference was already covered in the original source. The first sentence I added and only added the second when I had a source (I knew it anyway as this plant is so damn hard to propagate espite growing in bushland everywhere :((( ) 04:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- I thought it might, but didn't have access to the source: you are smart enough to say "all three points", so it would be a great pity if you have never made a logical inference in your contributions! Geometry guy 07:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, the source I added afterwards covers all three points. Hence I didn't have to infer anything as the inference was already covered in the original source. The first sentence I added and only added the second when I had a source (I knew it anyway as this plant is so damn hard to propagate espite growing in bushland everywhere :((( ) 04:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- People use mathematical inference (sometimes erroneously) all the time often without realizing it. In this edit for example, you did not feel the need provide a source for the rarity of cultivation being a consequence of the difficulty in propagation. Instead you added further reasons for the difficulty in propagation, which support the implicit logical connection. This is not a shining example, but I took it right from the top of your contribs, without even trying to find anything better. Geometry guy 03:59, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Our aim is to reflect sources - I guess I always take it to mean thus...I am actually trying to think of an instance where I've done any mathematical inference while writing....and I can't. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- I see your concern, but the point is not to exclude material because it is too simple. TECHNICAL itself recommends putting the simplest version first, and the more complex material later in the article, so that the person who simply wishes to be better informed can get an insight into the subject, even if they give up as soon as the maths notation, Greek or diagrams appear. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:17, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Arithmetic?
Why is the word "arithmetic" used in the routine calculation proposed finding? There are many types of routine mathematical calculations that are not arithmetic in nature (alphabetizing a sequence of words, for instance, or finding a closed form for an integral of a standard type). It is both standard and good exposition to work through simple examples of mathematical constructions, and this finding would seem to prevent much of that, far beyond its intended purpose within this specific case. It seems a strange, arbitrary, and new restriction, and one at odds with the earlier admonition to keep articles as accessible as possible —David Eppstein (talk) 01:51, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- I doubt many people would consider putting a list of words in alphabetical order to be a mathematical calculation. And if you are finding a closed form for an integral of a standard type, without it appearing in a textbook somewhere, then that is original research. I didn't make WP:OR up, I just quoted from it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:54, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- If you are following a cookbook method for the closed form of an integral but the exact integral you're doing isn't one already worked out in the textbook for you, it's not original research, it's an exercise. And alphabetization could easily be used in an example of a sorting algorithm, which I view as being a form of mathematics. Basically, the statement as it stands seems to be written from the point of view of a mathematically naive reader who thinks that arithmetic is the be-all and end-all of mathematics; it does not make sense for most of our articles on mathematics beyond the high school level. To pick a more advanced example: in Lattice of subgroups there's a section titled "example" which describes all the subgroups of the symmetries of a square. The choice of this group of symmetries, rather than some other group such as the symmetries of a tetrahedron, was not copied from the article's sources, but the listing out of all of the subgroups of this group is, to a mathematician, a routine calculation, requiring no new insights. It's just an example, rather than a theory, and everything in the example is standard. It's intended to make what's in the rest of the article easier to understand rather than to add new theoretical material to it. But the calculations do not use numbers, and they do not use addition and subtraction and the other operations of arithmetic. So your proposed finding seems to prevent this sort of routine use of examples in articles that are about any kind of non-numerical mathematics. And, it's more about what sort of content we should or shouldn't have than I would expect from ArbCom.
- By the way, I found this discussion from both WT:WPM and from my own talk page. Many of the WPM participants are fearful that this will lead to the outright elimination of examples from our mathematical articles: we can't copy whole examples from the sources because that would be a copyvio and if this sort of decision goes through we would also be prevented from making up examples. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- That's my concern as well. This decision would have serious (unintended) consequences if it passed as written and was enforced. I'm sure the intent does not match the wording at present. CRGreathouse (t | c) 02:48, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Ruling on content is beyond ArbCom's remit (Elen has a more nuanced way to say this, but I can't find the diff right now), so it should suffice to draw attention to the risk of an implicit content ruling. The current arbitration team includes many smart editors. Geometry guy 03:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- The intention in the principle is to re-iterate the WP:OR policy, and refers (or should refer IMHO) to novel derivations from first principles. Using substituted figures to illustrate a sourced method is certainly not a novel derivation from first principles, it's just a substitution of the starting point - if I were to write a piece on the standard method for solving simple quadratic equations, I could illustrate it with any quadratic as the method applies to them all. There's nothing novel about it, and I'm not creating any kind of OR with the example.
- Glosses may be more challenging - Kiefer Wolfowitz used the example of a gloss for something that has not yet been glossed in sources. I would think this could fall foul of original research as defined by Wikipedia, particularly if the gloss is challenged by other mathematicians. Which brings us to the problem of Monty Hall, and lots of editors providing derivations in their own notation and arguing that others notations are wrong. In that circumstance, since the derivations themselves are contentious, Wikipedia must insist on sources for all the maths.
- You guys might like to review the entire of WP:OR to be clear whether or not it presents a difficulty. If the wording here requires improvement, I am happy to put up a variant for the arbs to vote on. This does illustrate why it is better to hash the principles out in workshop first, and I regret that certain other distractions kept me from doing this for all of them. Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Coming from a physics background, I'm also very very weary of this ruling. Taking a concrete example from List of baryons, a featured list: the lifetime of resonances is defined as τ = ħ/Γ. where ħ is the Planck constant and Γ the resonance width. Now I needed to list lifetimes (τ) and their uncertainty (Δτ), but this data is unavailable for some of the baryons. However, the information for this exists indirectly, in the form of resonance widths (Γ ± ΔΓ), rather than lifetimes (τ ± Δτ). Converting width (Γ) to lifetime (τ) is simply punching numbers through τ = ħ/Γ (this can easily be sourced), but to convert uncertainties requires a bit more effort and some knowledge of differential calculus. One first needs to derive, from first principles, the uncertainty relations (which, after you do the basic calculations, turns out to be Δτ = ħΔΓ/Γ2). Now that second part is obvious to me, is obvious to any physicist working in the field, should be obvious to any physicist or mathematician (or anyone actually) capable of doing basic calculus, and is completely uncontroversial. However that second part is also, as far as I'm aware, unsourcable to the degree which ARBCOM seems to want to require from now on.
- This is a ruling on content, which quite frankly, ARBCOM is utterly unqualified to make. Case in point, most ARBCOM members are probably confused by the math I just gave, yet this is something that would be understood by anyone who passed a basic calculus class. 09:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- It's not a ruling on content at all. No original research is one of the pillars of Wikipedia, and this is a straight quote from it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:57, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- I fail to see where in WP:OR and particularly in WP:CALC the words "... deriving mathematical results from first principles, without reference to a published source, constitutes Original research within the definition used by the English Wikipedia" or "... deriving mathematical results from first principles, where the derivation hasn't been published in a reliable source, is original research within the definition used by the English Wikipedia" appear. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 10:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- It fairly clearly excludes the type of calculation that you wish to do, and that's not going to change any time soon, regardless of this case. If you want to add the uncertainties, you will have to persuade someone to publish a table of them. Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:23, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- The (Bayesian posterior/consequent) probability intervals can be derived using the change-of-variable formula (Radon-Nikodym theorem), just as one can derive 2372+1=2373 using arithmetic principles (which can be challenged and then can be sourced). We cannot always source trivialities such as 2372+1=2373. Such derivations are trivial for mathematicians (not necessarily logicians!). Such derivations are obvious and never a subject of argument. They should be recognized as important for exposition and protected from challenges as "original research by synthesis".
- Mathematicians disagree sometimes on the best way to present material: Criteria include simplicity, generality, insight/surprise, accessibility, relations to other topics. Articles are linearly ordered, and choices must be made. Kiefer.Wolfowitz (Discussion) 10:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- It fairly clearly excludes the type of calculation that you wish to do, and that's not going to change any time soon, regardless of this case. If you want to add the uncertainties, you will have to persuade someone to publish a table of them. Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:23, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- I fail to see where in WP:OR and particularly in WP:CALC the words "... deriving mathematical results from first principles, without reference to a published source, constitutes Original research within the definition used by the English Wikipedia" or "... deriving mathematical results from first principles, where the derivation hasn't been published in a reliable source, is original research within the definition used by the English Wikipedia" appear. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 10:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- It's not a ruling on content at all. No original research is one of the pillars of Wikipedia, and this is a straight quote from it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:57, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Hard cases make bad law. Several policies and guidelines such as WP:NOR already exhibit the problem that they only make sense in contentious situations and therefore have to be routinely ignored. Prescribing and fixing an interpretation of NOR as it applies to a specific class of articles will exacerbate the problem unless done with extreme care. There is a reason the mathematics project is extremely concerned:
- Mathematics articles differ from most other articles in that to a large degree they must teach rather than just inform. (This difference between mathematics articles and most other articles is necessary and not specific to Wikipedia. It reflects special features of mathematical literature and of mathematics education at all levels.)
- The main complaint about mathematics articles, and apart from the Monty Hall Problem article and very occasional cranks or self-promoters very much the only contentious issue for mathematics articles is that they tend to be very hard to understand for laypeople.
- Making mathematics articles more comprehensible requires the crafting of examples that fit the articles and therefore may not be in the literature. Just copying examples from the literature is a lazy practice that comes very close to plagiarism, even when a source is given, in those cases in which examples are practically arbitrary.
- It's extremely tedious and useless work to scour through an extensive didactic literature just to find an obvious example that anyone who knows the field could make up in two minutes. At the other extreme, for many advanced articles such a didactic literature does not exist yet and we would be forced to keep articles unnecessarily technical, essentially parrotting our sources instead of adapting them to our genre (that of an encyclopedia).
- Proposed decision 11 does not just say what NOR says anyway. In a subtle but important way it is considerably stronger.
- NOR: "This policy allows routine mathematical calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, provided editors agree that the arithmetic and its application correctly reflect the sources."
- Proposed decision: "Routine arithmetic calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age are permitted within articles. However, deriving mathematical results from first principles, without reference to a published source, constitutes Original research within the definition used by the English Wikipedia."
- Under the standard interpretation of NOR, it is no problem to make up example sentences for a linguistics article, as it is analogous to routine mathematical calculation and not contentious. The proposed, fundamentally new interpretation outlaws non-arithmetical mathematical calculations even though they are analogous to arithmetical calculations, and does so even when they are not contentious. A fortiori this brands the two examples in English relative clauses#Restrictive or non-restrictive as original research -- unless they have all appeared literally in a source. Hans Adler 10:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
In the real world, Richard D. Gill has been involved in legal proceedings, by writing papers and by being interviewed by the news media. Extra care should be taken to avoid harming his reputation here, lest a wrongfully convicted person have less access to an honest expert witness or news reporters question his motives.
It seems to me that he is being banned from the MHP for one year at his own request, as his sacrifice to WP to make the page open and inviting for new editors.
I don't understand why there is a discussion of his being stimulated by the WP article to write original research publications, which (after all) can be included once they meet the standard of reliable sources. Perhaps he may have been too enthusiastic on talk pages a few times, but it does not seem to me that he has added content without substantial support and acknowledgment from some other editors. The present language could be used to smear Professor Gill as manipulating WP to serve his own ends, contrary to the facts. In fact, Gill's contributions to WP continue to be made at great sacrifice to his academic research.
I would suggest omitting the statement about his original research, and underscoring that Gill requested his ban, to send a signal to the WP community (and beyond) that new editors are welcome on the MHP. Kiefer.Wolfowitz (Discussion) 09:30, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- Kiefer, writing papers and being interviewed by the press does not constitute being involved in legal proceedings. That requires a court, writs, judges etc. Wikipedia is certainly not a court, and it is well understood in the media that it is possible to conflict with Wikipedia's rules and end up prevented from editing an article, without it being a comment on one's character. What he has done (WP:COI issues arising from closed loop referencing) is a very technical offence against one of Wikipedia's more arcane rules. I don't think that talk of convictions, smears and harm to reputation is particularly helpful here. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:41, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- I struck through the unhelpful comments. You are welcome to remove such comments & your response if you like. Kiefer.Wolfowitz (Discussion) 10:04, 14 March 2011 (UTC)