Born2cycle (talk | contribs) →Born2cycle: odd definition of loaded question |
→Born2cycle: comment |
||
Line 213: | Line 213: | ||
::The page in question is not attached to an article, so no (to answer the question before Deb's comment), it has no immediate or direct effect on the credibility or reliability of the encyclopedia. [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names]] is about how the community wishes to respond to an editor who provokes strong negative feelings in a significant number of people he deals with. It's important that some editors also ''like'' working with him when he's a courtly curmudgeon and not Captain Ahab, and that some productive editors have mixed feelings. The voice of one editor should not be allowed to dominate a community forum of this kind and create an impression that one view is more important than any other, nor is that page the appropriate place to discuss [[WP:CIV]] "in general". I made the remark Born2cycle keeps quoting as a reason ''not to '''block''''' an editor, and so the question makes no sense: no one has suggested that Born2cycle be blocked or placed under external restrictions, only that the behavior be moderated voluntarily. If you believe that [[WP:CIV]] is a black-and-white policy, then you should acknowledge that when you're asked multiple times by multiple editors to tone it down (a fourth editor [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson_and_Byzantine_names&diff=prev&oldid=405043715 now has asked]), you're doing something wrong rhetorically or socially and ought to pay attention to what that might be, and not just assert the righteousness of your cause. This is indeed why [[WP:CIV]] exists. Nev1 understands very well how the rhetorical framing rendered the line of questioning unproductive: "have you stopped beating your husband?" is not a question I'd care to answer "yes" or "no." [[User:Cynwolfe|Cynwolfe]] ([[User talk:Cynwolfe|talk]]) 20:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC) |
::The page in question is not attached to an article, so no (to answer the question before Deb's comment), it has no immediate or direct effect on the credibility or reliability of the encyclopedia. [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names]] is about how the community wishes to respond to an editor who provokes strong negative feelings in a significant number of people he deals with. It's important that some editors also ''like'' working with him when he's a courtly curmudgeon and not Captain Ahab, and that some productive editors have mixed feelings. The voice of one editor should not be allowed to dominate a community forum of this kind and create an impression that one view is more important than any other, nor is that page the appropriate place to discuss [[WP:CIV]] "in general". I made the remark Born2cycle keeps quoting as a reason ''not to '''block''''' an editor, and so the question makes no sense: no one has suggested that Born2cycle be blocked or placed under external restrictions, only that the behavior be moderated voluntarily. If you believe that [[WP:CIV]] is a black-and-white policy, then you should acknowledge that when you're asked multiple times by multiple editors to tone it down (a fourth editor [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson_and_Byzantine_names&diff=prev&oldid=405043715 now has asked]), you're doing something wrong rhetorically or socially and ought to pay attention to what that might be, and not just assert the righteousness of your cause. This is indeed why [[WP:CIV]] exists. Nev1 understands very well how the rhetorical framing rendered the line of questioning unproductive: "have you stopped beating your husband?" is not a question I'd care to answer "yes" or "no." [[User:Cynwolfe|Cynwolfe]] ([[User talk:Cynwolfe|talk]]) 20:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC) |
||
The sheer volume of Born2cycle's comments are a burden, and tend towards becoming some kind of harassment. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAllied_Gardens%2C_San_Diego%2C_California&action=historysubmit&diff=404728428&oldid=404681280 Here] an editor points out Born2cycle commented far more than any other editor in a different discussion, somehow with a nice link to a count of all edits in that discussion. In another discussion (not sure which one) i have seen Born2cycle repeating things because he asserts (perhaps correctly) that an editor didn't read everything Born2cycle had already written. That's a sign u've written too much, not to be remedied by repeating. This is arrogant in a certain way, believing that one given topic is so important that everyone must consider it, and that they must deeply consider everything said about it, again and again. Give other people credit for making their own choices about what to pay attention to. --[[User:Doncram|Doncram]] ([[User talk:Doncram|talk]]) 20:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC) |
|||
==User:Brewcrewer== |
==User:Brewcrewer== |
Revision as of 20:49, 30 December 2010
Welcome to wikiquette assistance | ||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ||||||||||
Additional notes:
| ||||||||||
To start a new request, enter a name (section header) for your request below:
|
Active alerts
Cptono Continues to Bully Edit the Beck Page and to post things on my discussion page== I am having serious problems with user Cptnono. He is controlling the glenn beck page, lawyering on the wikiguidelines to eliminate legit. content, and basically assuming control as the managing editor of the page. Further he keeps posting things on my discussion page. I do not want this editor posting on my discussion page, and I would like for someone to investigate his behavior on the Glenn Beck page. I have made a number of complaints and no one has done anything. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:00, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
Cptnono
- Cptnono (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Cptono is a bully editor and uncivil to other users. Here is a statement he made on the glenn beck talk page:
Blah blah blah. You took such a good step in attempting to find sources. But we all know the Earth revolves around Mars. Also, double check what "reliable source" is just because a couple seem off. And if you really really ant something to change in the article, start providing some drafts. Cptnono (talk) 15:34, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
And here is a statement he made on my own discussion page:
Go cry yourself to sleep, sweetheart.Cptnono (talk) 15:41, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Having reviewed his history as an editor, this is part of a clear pattern. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 16:25, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
- I have little use personally for the editor you're complaining about. But this is extremely weak sauce. The advice in the first quote seems reasonable (write a proposed draft/change). The second comment is a bit dickish, but so what? There may indeed be a broader problem with him (or not) but there's no there, here.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:44, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
These are just the two most recent examples. This is routine behavior for Cptnono, and he has done much worse in the past. He, like many editors, bullies new users, and users who disagree with him. And I would suggest saying something like "Cry yourself to sleep" when someone is raising legitimate points, is bullying. As is his other statement. I shouldn't have to tolerate. Nor should other users. Free exchange of ideas is fine. Free reign for bullies and jerks is not. If this is how things are on wikipedia, I will not contribute any more. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:34, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
- Read this: WP:DIFF. Compile a bunch of them if there there to be dealt with, and the open up an RFC/U (see WP:RFC). I strongly doubt anything will come of this specific complaint. It's just too minor in isolation. You'll have to demonstrate the broader problem, if it's there to see.Bali ultimate (talk) 22:37, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
It isn't minor. Veteran editors name calling and belittling new users, is a problem and it frankly reflects poorly on wikipedia. I've watched Cptnono as I've read articles for some time. He is a habit of attacking other users and using wikipedia editorial policies as a vessel for bullying. I am not going to take hours out of my day to trace every statement he made and build a case against him. Either the editors here are willing to do their homework to keep wikipedia free of cyberbullies or they aren't. But you can be sure, I will no longer contribute. Just don't feel like being attacked without any moderators stepping in. Especially when I raise a very legitimate concern, and it is clear Cptnono is abusing his veteran status to help advance his own partisan viewpoint in articles. Good day.Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
- I got a warning for it. Doesn't hurt my feelings. Your comments were out of line and I am not bullying you. Simply asking you to follow our standards. You still haven't provided a proposed line with a source attached. That is a simple enough request.Cptnono (talk) 22:56, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
My comments weren't out of line. There are serious problems with that article. I pointed out what they were on the discussion page. I didn't even make any edits tot he actual article, I just wanted to bring problems with it to peoples' attention. Then I supplied some links to prove the point. I have no interest in attaching my name to an article that is obviously the victim of partisan consensus building. I noted that fact and you jumped all over me. I also have been watching you as a wikipedia reader for some time, and this is part of a clear pattern with you. I wish you no ill. But don't bully me and don't call me names. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
- If you do not see how "Am I the only one who suspects this article was crafted mainly by pro-Beck editors. The "disputes" section is an obvious attempt to obfuscate his numerous controversies." and "The bias is clear. Hide behind whatever pretend-editorial rules you want to" inappropriate then we are done here.Cptnono (talk) 23:08, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Those are my honest opinions based on the text in the article and its history. Perhaps I could have worded it better, but should I not express concern about bias in an article? I clearly saw evidence of bias, and you dismissed my concerns with a wave of the hand. You then used the rules as a bludgeon when it appeared I had raised some legitimate issues of bias in the article. There are plenty of good, unbiased articles on wikipedia. The Glenn Beck page does not appear to be one of them. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:13, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Oh, and just to show this isn't isolated. It appears there is another posting on this page regarding Cptnono. The person in question certainly made a snide remark to the editors, but that doesn't warrant this response from Cptnono:
"What does the mean you stupid fuck? Who do you think created that page? I know you are sad that no one agrees with you but shut up already. Cptnono (talk)"
Again, this guy has a history. You can it ignore it, or you can acknowledge it for what it is: bullying. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:30, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
- No. I have a history of incivility. I can acknowledge that. But I was not "bullying" you. "1) Do not attack other editors by assuming they are doing something like that. 2) Controversy'section are frowned upon so the info needs to be neutral with a neutral section header. 3)start your comments at the bottom of pages not the top." is not mean an anyway. But you just said you "Have no interest in wrangling with users" so maybe you should stop.Cptnono (talk) 23:34, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
- And I would feel worse but calling someone a fuck was a response (albeit an inappropriate one) to an NPA and my responses to you were based on your continuous accusations of malicious editing. Pot calling kettle black.Cptnono (talk) 23:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
You were bullying. The snippet you just posted was not an example of that, what I posted of your statements was however. I saying specific editors were unbiased, I was observing that the page was biased and it looked like it was edited by people favorable to Beck. There is a difference between that, and what you did, which was to target your attack at me specifically. Forget it though, if wikipedia is going to let you continue using the F word against users (whatever your justification), I want no part in wikipedia. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:52, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
The bullying started when you said "cry yourself to sleep sweetheart" on my talk page and when you said "Blah, blah, blah" in response to points I had raised. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:55, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
He is continuing to bully edit on the Glenn Beck Talk Page. I am trying to draft a reasonable entry, and he is just blocking it. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 03:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- I am not continuing to bully you. Three editors agree that it should not go in and have provided reasoning. I have offered you several suggestions and not been uncivil since I was warned. You on the other hand have repeatedly asserted that editors are not including it due to bias which is inappropriate.Cptnono (talk) 03:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- My most recent suggestion [1]. Your most recent attacks/assumption of bad faith: [2][3] Cptnono (talk) 03:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Stuff like this isn't so bad but it isn't helping: [4] Consensus is part of what we do here and your response to not achieving it does not need to be to assume that others are intentionally editing in a malicious manner. If you notice, I have been editing the page for awhile and have been happy with its neutrality. It says some scathing things about the guy. If you do not think so you should request that it be checked for neutrality.Cptnono (talk) 03:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Whatever. You are just using the rules to be a bully editor. Plenty of editors agree with the addition, and you and the others are blocking it for political reasons. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
I find it outrageous that in an article on a major political pundit, who frequently talks about Islam and Terrorism, the fact that he believes the number of muslims who are terrorist is close to 10% doesn't get mentioned. That is not a neutral article at all. You are just allowing beck fans to dilute the content. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Why do you continue to take his words out of context? If you really want to rail about Beck simply go to DK or HuffPo or MMfA and post your thoughts on their boards. Arzel (talk) 14:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Again how are those words taken out of context. He said that many people say only 1% of muslims are terrorist and he thinks the number is closer to 10%. In 2003 he said something similar, stating that 10% of them want to kill us. Just because he was making another point when he said it, doesn't mean the statement has no meaning. He said it. That is a fact. It has been covered by major news organizations. That is a fact. This is exactly what I am talking about. Clearly users like Arzel are beck supporters and are protecting the page from additions that they feel are negative. There is no way anyone can listen to the program where beck says the number is closer to 10% and feel it is being taken out of contextDeliciousgrapefruit (talk) 15:01, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Actually I don't care for Beck, and never listen to him. What I don't like are POV pushers that see something on MMfA, HuffPo, Daily Kos, or one of the other far left blogs come here to promote their point of view. The first I even heard of this incident was here, which leads me to believe that it is not that big of a deal. You should really take your issue up with all of the people that answered the orginial poll which gave Beck his ammo to begin with. Arzel (talk) 14:48, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
By the way, I don't want to rail about Beck. I just want the article to accurately reflect what the guy is about. And I think him saying he thinks the number of muslims who are terrorists is close to 10%, is significant enough to include. When I look up a public personality, I want access to controversial statements they've made so I can make my own judgment about them. By all means, include the context, and include his explanation. But include it you must. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 15:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- This sort of thing is not OK. I am sorry you feel beat up on but you came to the talk page and started rocking the boat and not assuming good faith. You are the continuing to be uncivil.Cptnono (talk) 21:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Cptono, you are being a bully editor. You are using the rules as a weapon to keep relevant details out of articles. You are misusing consensus as well. I looked up the consensus guidelines. At this stage, we should actually be getting mediation on the entry. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:42, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- And the user just won't stop:"Because it is basically being written by his followers already.""he beck fans are able to have their way on wikipedia because they know how to use consensus as a weapon." WP:NPA can apply in two ways "Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done. When in doubt, comment on the article's content without referring to its contributor at all." and "Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream." The later would apply if I was a fan but I have already said on the talk page that I am actually not a fan. Editors should not have to deal with the repeated accusations. I can understand it happening but he has been asked to stop several times. I get that he disagrees and feels bullied but such feelings do not allow for him to continue to assume the worst of faith. So maybe it is time that he is given a firm reminder and notice that further personal attacks will lead to a restriction on him editing the article.Cptnono (talk) 20:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Maybe its time to ban Cptnono's account because he bully edits and because he is basically preventing a highly relevant news story from being included in the beck article. Cptnono, I'm not going to wrangle with you on the beck page (which is why I haven't edited the actual article), but its clear you and many other editors are restricting items on that page for some reason. Can I prove its because you are biased? No. But I have a very strong hunch about it. And here is just another example of you bully editing someone.Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:26, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
And I would just ask the powers that be to examine cptnono's entries and his interactions with other users over the past several months. I am not the only one he has bullied, attacked or been uncivil to. And he has made a practice of using wiki policy as a weapon. What is more, he uses it selective to get his way on articles. I've taken the time to look up every guideline he cites, and with the possible exception of assuming good faith (a guideline I think is deeply misguided) he is missapplyuing all of them, or providing an incomplete picture of the guideline. Also suggest someone examine the Beck page. It has significant issues. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
- I have been warned for being uncivil to you and not continued. Blocks are meant to be preventative not punitive so it obviousley would not be needed. Even more importantly it has to be pretty extreme to warrant a block. Civility blocks are pretty rare and my one dickish comment to you was not severe enough. I am not saying I will make it again but it wasn't bad enough for a block. You on the other hand have ignored requests to stop. SO I don;t want to see you blocked neccassarily but it might be time for you to not edit that talk page anymore especially since you have already clearly said you are not interested on working on the article. If you do not want to work on the article you should not be there. I would welcome reviews of the page. Some people said the same thing you are saying a few months ago and they came in gung-ho. I sat back and watched and in the end they adjusted like 1 paragraph.Cptnono (talk) 22:00, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
- By the way, I was actually blocked for civility once (for three hours) but that was part of arbitration enforcement where decorum standards are much stricter. So maybe a good way to close this out is for me to be nicer (I haven;t even been mean to you since this was opened) and you do the same. But if you continue to make personal attacks you will need to not work on that talk page anymore. You should also probably consider working on the article since you are not improving the article right now.Cptnono (talk) 22:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
- Nothing here. Will someone please close this string, which has already been open too long?--Epeefleche (talk) 11:16, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Cptnono looking at your most recent responses on the Beck page, I don't believe you've become more civil. Perhaps your natural style is just a little peppery, and you don't realize how it comes across, but most of your posts come off as insulting. And the difference between what you are doing and what I am doing is this: I make general criticisms of the page and those who have edited it as a group, whereas you make criticisms of specific individuals. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 14:37, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
I have considered the article, but you;ve told me my addition will be deleted by you if I make it. You keep wielding "Consensus" and other guidelines as weapons. But when I look them up and compare them to our discussion it is clear you are misusing them. So far no one has provided good reasons for keeping the entry out of the page. A number of people have agreed it is relevant. And those who disagree, clearly won't change their minds no matter what. Which is why, out of frustration, I am saying the fans of beck are controlling the page. It may be against guidelines to assume good faith. But when it is so obvious they blocking consensus, what is one to do. I mean, one of them actually argued it shouldn't be included because in his view calling muslims terrorists is a compliment in their culture. I am sorry but Beck's assertion thatr the number muslims who are terrorist is close to 10%, and Zakarias response on CNN (as well as reactions in the Huffington Post and coverage in the NY Daily News) make this a major statement and controversy. It should be included. I assume anyone who wants to know about his views on musilms and terrorism would want that included. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 14:42, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
- "Cptnono looking at your most recent responses on the Beck page, I don't believe you've become more civil. Perhaps your natural style is just a little peppery," Maybe that is the issue. Can you point to which response you are talking about since I do not recall saying anything lately that would be seen as offensive. Also, the content discussion should be kept over there and not here.Cptnono (talk) 20:47, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
I have twice had occasion to remind Cptnono about civility guidelines: [6] and [7]. The guideline Comment on content, not on the contributor is there for a purpose. Unfortunately the reminders did not appear to have the desired effect: "he can fuck off for making that comment" and "kneejerk garbage". I suggest that Cptnono take some time to consider why they were blocked for incivility after facing an Arbcom enforcement case. Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 17:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- I have received a block (due to articles under AE having stricter standards) and warning since the Nov 17th one so it is stale and handled. And yes, on my talk page I did refer to your warnings as knee jerk garbage. Asking "Have you read WP:CAPTION" is not uncivil. If I would have said "Have you even read CAPTION" or "Hey, idiot, go read CAPTION" that would not be civil. It was an honest question that you read the tone in incorrectly. And your second warning was for saying that you had not presented an alternative. There was no personal attack there. We were having a discussion on how to improve the article and I was asking for you to do more. It was an overreaction on your part. And "knee-jerk garbage" on my own talk page is far from crossing any lines. Stop poking editors on their talk pages for no good reason and you won't have to deal with it in the future. The double standard shown in the above and below reports (editors making attacks then me getting grief for responding) is ridiculous but I can at least understand where Deliciousgrapefruit and Walter Görlitz are coming from. But this latest comment from Kenilworth Terrace reeks of a game being played or a simple overreaction based on other mistakes (I don't know which). And since since there is no true personal attack in this recent comment, no block or warning is warranted since I already recently received a warning based on bullet point two of Wikipedia:No personal attacks#Blocking for personal attacks we should be done here. There have not been any further personal attacks since F&W sent me a reminder. Cptnono (talk) 01:19, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
- The object of posting here was not to rehash previous discussions but to give some useful advice: (1) Comment on content, not on the contributor (2) Don't be uncivil when given useful advice. Take it or not -- your choice. Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 16:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
It isn't just a civility issue. He is bullyediting and controlling the beck page. Just look at the discussions. He pretty much controls what goes on there and what doesn't. He is policing it, and using policy guidelines as a weapon to steer the page in the direction he wants (IMO). I did blow my top at him in a post, and I appologize, but it is very frustrating when the page is clearly being controlled by one editor who appears to be very biased in favor of the subject. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 17:44, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
- I appreciate your apology. I also was way out of line with my comment so I hope you know that I sincerely regret it. Also, you are free to say I am biased here all you want. Just don;t do it on the talk page. And it is not "policing" but simply watchlisting. Notice that the recent conversationbstarted by me was because there was an edit war starting. Better to use the talk page than to edit war. Feel free to jump in but keep the accusations of bias out since I don't need to tell you anymore what my biases are.Cptnono (talk) 02:23, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
No, you don't need to tell me your biases, you are showing them through your actions. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 11:57, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Because it is a major problem when one editor effectively controls the content of a page. At this stage, a mediator needs to step in and issue a decision on the article and including 10%. But you are not the person who should be making that call. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 19:44, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
You do. You police the thread, and you've basically told me you won't allow the draft I proposed to be added to the article. You are the person on that article blocking additions. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 02:33, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- This really has nothing to do with breaches of Wikiquette, but just to correct what you have said here, at ANI, and at the mediation page in one place: I am not the only editor who disagrees with you. Cptnono (talk) 02:43, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
No, but you are the one actively blocking and you are the one who acts as if he is the head editor of the page. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 14:10, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Personal attacks at Talk:Theosis
- LoveMonkey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Theosis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
User in question has engaged in a long series of personal attacks focusing in particular on one other editor (User:Esoglou). Attacks have included charges of lying, laziness, mental incompetence. Bad enough if done once. Unacceptable as a pattern of ongoing behavior. Richard S (talk) 17:39, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- I've said it before and say it again. On an article talk page: "Comment on content, not on the contributor". Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 18:15, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Please in advance forgive my frustration that I am sure will reflect in my reposne here. But uh..Fair enough to the critique of me but uh...why is Richard ignoring Esoglou's vio of the WP:3rr and focusing on me? [8] This diff is off of the same talkpage Richard was on that same talkpage at that moment making comments. Richard appears to be very selective in what he notices. Notice all of the other Wiki policy violations that Esoglou has committed and no one. NO ONE. Is publicly saying anything to him at all. No one went to his talkpage and posted that he stop as it looks like he is committing 3rr no one has said anything to his citation tag abuses and attacks that reflect bad faith. No one is addressing that on the Dec 16th Esoglou committed 3rr on the theoria article [9]. No one is saying anything to esoglou or filling reports on his behavior and when I do nothing gets done. Heres where I reported Esoglou to the 3 RR noticeboard TWICE before and nobody is doing anything [10], [11] Except complaining about me calling Esoglou lazy and incompetent. This is the exact same behavior that is running editors off of this project and the administrators are attacking the people whom out of frustration make comments critical of this type of disruptive behavior. Funny but isn't this very noticeboard a noticeboard to point out behavior and be critical of it? Why the double standard? LoveMonkey (talk) 18:42, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Leaving aside the issue (which has been mentioned to LoveMonkey several times in the past) that 3RR / edit-warring / disruptiveness / incivility complaints should be made on the appropriate notice boards and not on article talk pages, the incident which LoveMonkey mentioned first above (here) does not appear to me to be a 3RR violation. (See the entire section on the talk page, including material posted there after LoveMonkey's initial complaint.)
- I haven't looked in detail at the Theoria article issue, but the incident which LoveMonkey reported on that article's talk page would (at the very worst) appear on its face to be new material added by Esoglou, followed by two reverts. Possibly an edit-warring violation (depending on the nature of the exchange), but not a violation of 3RR.
- As for LoveMonkey's edit-warring notice posted on the notice board last July (yes, July 2010!), it's my impression that this notice requires more detail in order to make it clear that the activity is edit warring and not simply a content dispute. I'm not in a position to say why no admin came along last July and either requested more details or closed the report in a timely manner, but the proper response to this is not to reject or ignore the notice boards and insist on posting accusations in edit summaries and article talk pages. Richwales (talk · contribs) 03:53, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Some specific, recent examples which I believe will illustrate the kind of thing Richardshusr (talk · contribs) ("Richard S") is reporting:
- Talk:Theosis#More Bad faith, Theoria is a stage of the process of theosis
- Talk:Theosis#Personal attacks must stop
- Talk:Theosis#I'm also confused...
and, by contrast, an example of a recent interaction between Esoglou and Richardshusr:
Richwales (talk · contribs) 04:10, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
User:Mactruth
- Mactruth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Macedonia naming dispute (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Mactruth started editing in a POV way, among others adding blatant unreliable sources (blogs). After I revert most of his edits adding reliable sources (Richard Clogg, Loring Danforth) and warned him, he started harassing me, claiming I was the one who vandalised and posting lame statements on my talk page. He insists on keeping as "reliable" sources in the article POV authors such as Andrew Rossos (he never hide he is biased on the issue) and Antonio Milososki, the current minister of foreign affairs of the Republic of Macedonia, POV by definition. I haven't revert those yet, mentioning to him that they are POV and see how he will continue. He then copied the intro of my user page and used it in his user page in an at least lame way... Note that he has been blocked many times before for similar disrupting behaviour. A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 08:53, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
V7-Sport
- V7-sport (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- United States and state terrorism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
User:V7-sport is refusing to adhere to talk page formatting guidelines, and keeps placing his posts out of chronological order (placing his later responses above everyone elses earlier responses), and interjecting them within other people's posts, instead of responding afterwards. I have tried to fix this[12][13], and pointed him to WP:TOPPOST, but he keeps reverting back to the incorrect formatting[14][15]. Could someone uninvolved please take a look at this. I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to file this, but I'm just trying to get someone he's not in a conflict with to talk to him about formatting. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 03:34, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
- No worries folks, I called a waaaaambulence. Nothing to see here. V7-sport (talk) 04:24, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
- V7-sport, he has a point. Repeatedly interjecting comments out of chronological order makes it very difficult for other editors to determine how the conversation unfolded. Whether or not this is something you do often, I have no idea and I'm not going to dive through your history to find out. If it is something you do often, please stop. If not, then you're probably fine. WP:TPO says that interruptions can occasionally be ok in certain circumstances: "In some cases, it is okay to interrupt a long contribution, either with a short comment (as a reply to a minor point) or with a heading (if the contribution introduces a new topic or subtopic; in that case, one might add
:<small>Heading added for REASON by ~~~~</small>
below the heading to make the nature of the change clearer). When introducing an interruptive break, please add{{subst:interrupted|USER NAME OR IP}}
before the interruption. One may also manually ensure that attribution is preserved by copy-pasting the original signature to just before the interruption." Also, Jrtayloriv, it is considered rude to modify other people's comments on talk pages. I understand why you did it, but in the future you might just want bring up the problem with the user in question and ask them to fix it themselves. SnottyWong converse 19:48, 29 December 2010 (UTC)- Thanks Snottywong -- I will do as you suggested in the future. Seems like this particular issue is resolved for now -- he's started to use normal formatting. When I posted, I thought it was going to be a long-term issue due to the manner in which he responded. Anyhow, someone can feel free to close this as resolved if they want. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 20:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- V7-sport, he has a point. Repeatedly interjecting comments out of chronological order makes it very difficult for other editors to determine how the conversation unfolded. Whether or not this is something you do often, I have no idea and I'm not going to dive through your history to find out. If it is something you do often, please stop. If not, then you're probably fine. WP:TPO says that interruptions can occasionally be ok in certain circumstances: "In some cases, it is okay to interrupt a long contribution, either with a short comment (as a reply to a minor point) or with a heading (if the contribution introduces a new topic or subtopic; in that case, one might add
- No worries folks, I called a waaaaambulence. Nothing to see here. V7-sport (talk) 04:24, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Born2cycle
- Born2cycle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names (edit | [[Talk:Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I feel that the discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names has become dominated by a single user and thus unproductive. I am requesting that an uninvolved administrator watch the page and intervene if necessary to reset a course to effective action.
My concern is that the behavior of User:Born2cycle will discourage others from leaving an opinion on the two proposed actions against User:Pmanderson. User:Born2cycle neither brought the initial complaint nor made either of the two proposals for disciplinary action. Throughout the discussion, however, User:Born2cycle has engaged in "aggressive behaviours that disrupt the project and lead to unproductive stress and conflict," which WP:CIV expressly prohibits. At least three participants in the discussion have asked User:Born2cycle to stop (here and here and here). Even if User:Born2cycle feels that s/he has made a sincere effort to contribute positively to the discussion, s/he needs to consider why others are reacting badly to his/her tone.
Based on the following criteria at WP:CIV#Identifying incivility, I identify the problematic behavior as follows:
- Taunting or baiting and quoting another editor out of context to give the impression they hold views they do not hold. I responded to the two proposals here (with edit summary) and top left here. It was my view that blocking should be reserved for users who damage the usefulness and credibility of the encyclopedia, and I therefore preferred the proposal to restrict the user's actions (the initial complaint was brought by User:Cplakidas, aka Constantine, who has also endorsed the restriction, not the block). User:Born2cycle conceded that s/he doesn't "know of any articles that have been directly damaged by PMA's behavior," but then kept demanding that I defend my opinion (here and here and here), insisting that the discussion go off-topic to address my views of WP:CIV "in general" (a phrase repeated in at least three different demands).
- S/he asks: "are you suggesting PMA deserves special consideration, and a 'pass' on abiding by WP:CIVIL as compared to others?" (see third highlighted comment) after I had already stated that I preferred the restriction proposal as a means of correction. This is contrary to the WP:CIV caution about misrepresenting the views of other editors to "give the impression they hold views they do not hold." I said nothing about exempting PMA from anything, nor did I assert that he merited "special consideration."
- Ill-considered accusations of impropriety and belittling a fellow editor. Here I'm accused of dodging a question after I gave a lengthy exposition of what values underlie my view (I consider this irrelevant, but was attempting to comply with a request). In the last comment to me, User:Born2cycle accuses me of "stonewalling and question evasion." These words impugn my credibility as a good-faith editor, though as User:Aldux pointed out, the characterization is untrue. WP:NPA states: "Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done."
- User:Born2cycle continued to malign my credibility at User talk:Aldux#If that's not stonewalling, what is? It is exceedingly bad etiquette to complain about another editor without notification, and this is a form of indirect hounding. If there was a problem with my behavior, an incident notice should have been filed, and I should've been reported. Or he should've brought the discussion to me. My lengthy responses show that I did not "share my opinion and run"; I don't think the matter at hand is a yes or no question; my discourse was not meaningless. I did answer the questions; User:Born2cycle just didn't like my answer.
- Badgering. This is not explicitly mentioned at WP:CIV, but I find hectoring to be uncivil (see also WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT). Surely this long response from me is sufficient explanation of my position, and yet here and here User:Born2cycle demands that I "answer," as if I haven't, and attempts even to dictate what form my reply should take; please note also User:Born2cycle's edit summary marking the sixth posing of a question asked and answered. An editor should not be bullied into shaping her opinion in conformity to another editor's, and these kinds of rhetorical tactics constitute "a studied pattern of incivility."
- Need to have the last word. User:Born2cycle seems reluctant to allow other users to have their say. He stopped posting only when I didn't defend myself after being accused of "stonewalling and question evasion." But simply walking away from this kind of behavior only condones and encourages it to continue: an experienced, highly regarded editor has just posted his opposition to the block and User:Born2cycle has initiated another round of interrogation. (This editor, wiser than I, has not engaged.) Notice that User:Born2cycle does not interrogate users who agree with him; these questions are not posed in the spirit of disinterested inquiry.
Desired outcome. User:Born2cycle's behavior could deter editors from leaving opinions, particularly neutral parties who aren't motivated by either animus or loyalty and who don't want to subject themselves to this kind of aggressive cross-examination. Therefore the desired outcomes are:
- A neutral, uninvolved administrator should watch Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names and intervene if this kind of exchange resumes.
- All or most of the section following my initial comment here on the block proposal up to the next opinion should be placed under a collapsed header, so that it doesn't leave the impression that anyone leaving an opinion contrary to that of User:Born2cycle will be subjected to similar badgering.
- User:Born2cycle should not be allowed to play the role of prosecutor and to dominate a forum designed to solicit a range of opinions.
I plan to leave a notice on the project page, and on the talk page of User:Born2cycle. Thanks for your time. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- tl; dr. Unhelpful forum shopping by Cynwolfe, cf WP:KETTLE and WP:POT. Mathsci (talk) 15:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Diffs demonstrating forum shopping and similar behaviour by Cynwolfe? Nev1 (talk) 15:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- There is already a lengthy public discussion taking place on a subpage of another noticeboard (WP:ANI). There is no need to enlarge that discussion to here, using WP:CIVIL as an excuse. My own understanding is that the discussion there concerning blocks is totally irrelevant, as there is no prospect of a block, The best idea is for both users to disengage and go their separate ways. In fact both of them are making contributions in good faith and there seems to a large degree of agreement between the two of them. If they want to discuss things further, they should both stay on-topic and restrict themselves to the proposed topic ban. Archiving the unhelpful discussion on a one month block might be the easiest solution here. Mathsci (talk) 16:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Specific diffs would help. This is about Born2cycle's behaviour, not Pmanderson's which should be the primary topic of the other thread. Born2cycle is certainly being quite tenacious and is spilling over onto other talk pages. Nev1 (talk) 16:54, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm glad Mathsci agrees with my desired outcomes. I haven't filed one of these before, so apologies for errors of procedure. It was my understanding that I was required to inform all those who were involved; therefore, I posted a notice at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names, because the number of people who have contributed there made it impractical to post notices on individual talk pages. I thought it would be "forum shopping" if I made my own selection of editors to inform. I'm not asking for any action to be taken against User:Born2cycle; I just want to make sure an uninvolved administrator keeps other editors from feeling intimated, and keeps the discussion on track as Mathsci suggests. But just to clarify for my own future reference: it's OK to complain about an editor on a third-party talk page? (I saw this by accident, when Aldux made an edit to the obscure article Siburius and I wondered whether the user was interested in Gaul.) If I were to do so, no one would be justified in complaining? This was after I had stopped responding (check the time codes here and here). I didn't respond there, and I haven't responded at the project page; however, Born2cycle has already indicated that he intends not to let others have their say in peace, and I'm not the only editor who would like him to change his rhetorical strategy. Mathsci is quite right, however, about the direction of consensus and the otiose nature of further discussion of a block. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:00, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Specific diffs would help. This is about Born2cycle's behaviour, not Pmanderson's which should be the primary topic of the other thread. Born2cycle is certainly being quite tenacious and is spilling over onto other talk pages. Nev1 (talk) 16:54, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- There is already a lengthy public discussion taking place on a subpage of another noticeboard (WP:ANI). There is no need to enlarge that discussion to here, using WP:CIVIL as an excuse. My own understanding is that the discussion there concerning blocks is totally irrelevant, as there is no prospect of a block, The best idea is for both users to disengage and go their separate ways. In fact both of them are making contributions in good faith and there seems to a large degree of agreement between the two of them. If they want to discuss things further, they should both stay on-topic and restrict themselves to the proposed topic ban. Archiving the unhelpful discussion on a one month block might be the easiest solution here. Mathsci (talk) 16:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Diffs demonstrating forum shopping and similar behaviour by Cynwolfe? Nev1 (talk) 15:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
There are some very important underlying issues being discussed here, so I welcome this inquiry in to my behavior.
Of course I'm not neutral on the issue of whether PMA's behavior in question here was appropriate, but I would welcome those who disagree with me to question anyone who shares my opinion on this matter to question us in the same manner as I question them. This is how we get to the bottom of issues in courts, and there is no reason it should not work equally well in WP discussions, for the same reasons. These discussions are much more analogous to courtroom testimony than to cocktail parties in which it is considered bad etiquette to ask pointed questions about off-handed remarks that people make, and I ask that the appropriateness of the questioning at issue here be judged accordingly.
As Cynwolfe notes above, his/her view was based on the general opinion that "blocking should be reserved for users who damage the usefulness and credibility of the encyclopedia". So, I thought (and still think) it would helpful for everyone involved in the discussion (including Cynwolfe) to know whether this view was based on the related in general opinion that "rude, uncivil and disruptive behavior towards other users on talk pages damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia", or whether it was special dispensation expressed for someone for whom she was biased favorably. I still don't know the answer to this question, but still believe it would be useful to the discussion there. Cynwolfe was of course free not to answer, and free not to reply at all, but he/she chose to reply without answering, repeatedly, so I kept re-asking. Please note that every time I allegedly "badgered", it was in reply to yet another post from Cynwolfe in which he/she "responded" but did not answer.
I'm also disturbed by the implication here that pointed questioning (what Cynwolfe derides as "role of prosecutor") about stated opinions, especially in deliberations about relatively serious questions like the blocking of someone, should be discouraged.
I know that the refusal to answer questions is a pet peeve of mine, and I suppose I get a bit obsessive about it, especially in important contexts like this one is. But I just can't imagine refusing to answer a simple yes/no question about a position I've taken. I mean, are we in these discussions just to share our opinions and run, like at a cocktail party, or are we trying to understand each other (and our selves) and hopefully find common ground and consensus through the discussion? If a position does not hold up to scrutiny, why maintain it? Why would you want to hold a position that does not hold up to scrutiny? How do you know whether your position holds up to scrutiny unless you hold it up to scrutiny? So, I presume we all want the meaningful discourse and not just a pointless like it/don't like it festival, and so I do get frustrated when others are simply not forthcoming about what they're saying and why. So I remain perplexed by Cynwolfe's refusal to answer an important and relevant yes/no question. Without such answers, others have no way to distinguish legitimate objective defenses of the behavior in question from rationalized statements made in defense of someone they are biased to support without much if any serious objective consideration of the inappropriateness of the behavior in question.
Cynwolfe claims the question has been answered. Yet I still have no idea what his/her opinion is about whether "rude, uncivil and disruptive behavior towards other users on talk pages damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia" (which is what was asked). If anyone else can figure out an answer to that from what was posted, please let me know, but I suggest that "answered" is being conflated with "responded".
As to the concern that questioning like this "could deter editors from leaving opinions, particularly neutral parties who aren't motivated by either animus or loyalty and who don't want to subject themselves to this kind of aggressive cross-examination", I suggest neutral parties are unlikely to make the kind of ambiguous statements (in support or opposition) that raises the kind of question I asked here. For example, Cynwolfe cites as a supposed example of my problematic behavior my questioning of the statement of a "highly regarded editor". But that statement in defense is entirely about the person whose behavior is being judged ("PMA is a knowledgable editor who makes many valuable contributions"), not about the behavior in question, which is the basis of my question. As to deterring other biased editors like this from making biased statements like this that they are unwilling to explain, I suggest that would raise the level of the quality of these discussions for the ultimate betterment of the encyclopedia. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:03, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Born2cycle, part of the problem here is that you asked Cynwolfe a loaded question. In fact several of them. "Do you believe that rude, uncivil and disruptive behavior towards other users on talk pages (not to mention in the edit wars and move wars in which he tends to engage) "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia"? If not, are you for deleting WP:CIVIL? How about WP:AGF?" Just because Cynwolfe avoided a yes or no answer does not mean she avoided answering your question. This looks like a reasonable answer to your question. Pressing for an answer for your loaded question was unnecessary harassment. That kind of obsessive behaviour chills discussion. Could you tone down the rhetoric. Nev1 (talk) 17:12, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Nev1, please consider the context in which I asked my supposedly loaded question. In a discussion in which PMA was accused of being rude, uncivil and disruptive to varying degrees, Cynwolfe stated, "What I find "telling" is that when I ask, as I have numerous times, for a demonstration of how PMA's behavior damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia, nobody can answer". Maybe you know what Cynwolfe means by "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia" here, but I wasn't sure when that was written, nor am I now. However, I carefully crafted my question to be clear that I was intending to reflect the same meaning in my words as Cynwolfe did in these words, by using Cynwolfe's words. What would help put Cynwolfe's position in context is to know whether Cynwolfe believes in general that that kind of behavior simply never "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia" (e.g., perhaps Cynwolfe believes since this kind of behavior is restricted to talk page banter it does not affect article space), or whether this was just being said in this case due to personal bias.
So, I asked, "Do you believe that rude, uncivil and disruptive behavior towards other users on talk pages (not to mention in the edit wars and move wars in which he tends to engage) "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia"?
A loaded question is by definition based on a controversial assumption. I try very hard to avoid asking questions based on controversial assumptions, and this situation was no exception. So, it would be helpful to me if you would clearly identify what you feel is the controversial assumption in my question. And, if you think Cynwolfe answered the question (though without a yes or no), please tell me whether Cynwolfe believes that the kind of behavior in which PMA engaged never "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia". Thanks.
By the way, did my repeated questioning of Cynwolfe in that discussion "damage the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia"? --Born2cycle (talk) 19:45, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Nev1, please consider the context in which I asked my supposedly loaded question. In a discussion in which PMA was accused of being rude, uncivil and disruptive to varying degrees, Cynwolfe stated, "What I find "telling" is that when I ask, as I have numerous times, for a demonstration of how PMA's behavior damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia, nobody can answer". Maybe you know what Cynwolfe means by "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia" here, but I wasn't sure when that was written, nor am I now. However, I carefully crafted my question to be clear that I was intending to reflect the same meaning in my words as Cynwolfe did in these words, by using Cynwolfe's words. What would help put Cynwolfe's position in context is to know whether Cynwolfe believes in general that that kind of behavior simply never "damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia" (e.g., perhaps Cynwolfe believes since this kind of behavior is restricted to talk page banter it does not affect article space), or whether this was just being said in this case due to personal bias.
- A loaded question is designed to elicit one of two responses. Either the person agrees with the questioner, or if they disagree the question is phrased in such a way that it appears unreasonable. Your second and third questions demonstrated that the first was indeed loaded. If you really wanted to understand what Cynwolfe meant rather than engage in this aggressive behaviour you would have asked "what do you mean by 'damages the usefulness or credibility of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia'?" At best, your question was poorly phrased and your subsequent behaviour embarrassing.
- I am not here to assist you with your comprehension skills, Born2cycle; Cynwolfe's response is there for you to re-read if you wish. I don't know whether your repeated questioning of Cynwolfe damaged the encyclopedia or its credibility, but it certainly didn't improve it. Nev1 (talk) 20:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- By your definition of "loaded question" asking Clinton whether he had sex with Monica Lewinsky, or asking anyone, including Cynwolfe, anything that they would rather not answer, is a "loaded question". So, yeah, in that sense, it was a loaded question, and intentionally so. But it was not based on an unreasonable assumption, which is the true characteristic of a loaded question. "Are you still beating your wife?", asked of someone for which wife beating has not been established, is the quintessential example since there is no way to answer it without acknowledging that one is wife beater. Please note that asking a convicted wife beater if he is still beating his wife is not a loaded question, so context is crucial. There was nothing in my question that presumed anything unreasonable, so it was not a loaded question.
Since grade school I've tested in the 99th percentile for reading comprehension, thank you very much. When I ask about X, and the answer is in regard to Y, that's not an answer. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:48, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- By your definition of "loaded question" asking Clinton whether he had sex with Monica Lewinsky, or asking anyone, including Cynwolfe, anything that they would rather not answer, is a "loaded question". So, yeah, in that sense, it was a loaded question, and intentionally so. But it was not based on an unreasonable assumption, which is the true characteristic of a loaded question. "Are you still beating your wife?", asked of someone for which wife beating has not been established, is the quintessential example since there is no way to answer it without acknowledging that one is wife beater. Please note that asking a convicted wife beater if he is still beating his wife is not a loaded question, so context is crucial. There was nothing in my question that presumed anything unreasonable, so it was not a loaded question.
- I'd like to support the comments from User:Cynwolfe. All wikipedia contributors have the right to an opinion, but in insisting on having the last word and commenting on everyone else's comments, Born2cycle is making a farce out of the Pmanderson debate. Deb (talk) 18:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- The page in question is not attached to an article, so no (to answer the question before Deb's comment), it has no immediate or direct effect on the credibility or reliability of the encyclopedia. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Pmanderson and Byzantine names is about how the community wishes to respond to an editor who provokes strong negative feelings in a significant number of people he deals with. It's important that some editors also like working with him when he's a courtly curmudgeon and not Captain Ahab, and that some productive editors have mixed feelings. The voice of one editor should not be allowed to dominate a community forum of this kind and create an impression that one view is more important than any other, nor is that page the appropriate place to discuss WP:CIV "in general". I made the remark Born2cycle keeps quoting as a reason not to block an editor, and so the question makes no sense: no one has suggested that Born2cycle be blocked or placed under external restrictions, only that the behavior be moderated voluntarily. If you believe that WP:CIV is a black-and-white policy, then you should acknowledge that when you're asked multiple times by multiple editors to tone it down (a fourth editor now has asked), you're doing something wrong rhetorically or socially and ought to pay attention to what that might be, and not just assert the righteousness of your cause. This is indeed why WP:CIV exists. Nev1 understands very well how the rhetorical framing rendered the line of questioning unproductive: "have you stopped beating your husband?" is not a question I'd care to answer "yes" or "no." Cynwolfe (talk) 20:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
The sheer volume of Born2cycle's comments are a burden, and tend towards becoming some kind of harassment. Here an editor points out Born2cycle commented far more than any other editor in a different discussion, somehow with a nice link to a count of all edits in that discussion. In another discussion (not sure which one) i have seen Born2cycle repeating things because he asserts (perhaps correctly) that an editor didn't read everything Born2cycle had already written. That's a sign u've written too much, not to be remedied by repeating. This is arrogant in a certain way, believing that one given topic is so important that everyone must consider it, and that they must deeply consider everything said about it, again and again. Give other people credit for making their own choices about what to pay attention to. --Doncram (talk) 20:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
User:Brewcrewer
- Brewcrewer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
At this diff User:Brewcrewer writes in response to a Request for move from the current title Allegations of Jewish control of the media to (the former title) Jewish control of the media (antisemitic canard) with the comment: "Allegation" implies a reasonable claim, which this isn't, except of course to antismeties, conspiracy theorists, and the rest of that gang.-- I asked Brewcrewer to remove the personal attack section, obviously against wikipedia policy, and because there were a number of editors who had supported the current title. Brewcrewer just ignored me. It didn't help that, as the diff shows, User:Jehochman - an admin who should know better - called my request "bullying" and defended the language. Perhaps someone could point out the wikietiquette problem and ask Brewcrewer to remove it. And if you are really energetic point out to Jehochman that it's not bullying to request its removal. (If I was a bully I'd go straight to the relevant Arbitration Enforcement where others have obtained short term blocks for such insults.) CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- I read that as Brewcrewer stating that the claim was not reasonable, not the title. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:04, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think Wikipedia:Wikietiquette#Avoid_indirect_criticism makes it clear that it is uncivil for Brewcrewer's language to clearly imply bigotry by those who support another title than that supported by the editor. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:08, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- He is not implying bigotry from the people who support another title, he's implying it from the people who think the allegations are real. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:31, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Someone just criticized me for putting in "some people are paranoid" about one of the titles, and obviously some wiki editors would be included in some people. So I removed it. Similarly, in context of this topic area and on a page where editors are repeatedly challenged to prove they don't support the allegation of total control, this can be read as an accusation against wiki editors, as a subgroup of the larger group. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think it most likely, as Sarek says, that Brewcrewer did indeed mean "that gang" to mean people who find the assertions reasonable, not people who find the word "Allegations" reasonable. On the other hand, it would have done no harm for you to phrase your response more along the lines of I read that as including all the editors who have supported "accusations" and "allegations" which would be offensive - please rephrase it, and certainly Jehochman would have done better to confine himself to making Sarek's point. So more restraint next time all round, please. Now let's all get back to building an encyclopaedia, shall we? Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 17:40, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Someone just criticized me for putting in "some people are paranoid" about one of the titles, and obviously some wiki editors would be included in some people. So I removed it. Similarly, in context of this topic area and on a page where editors are repeatedly challenged to prove they don't support the allegation of total control, this can be read as an accusation against wiki editors, as a subgroup of the larger group. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- He is not implying bigotry from the people who support another title, he's implying it from the people who think the allegations are real. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:31, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- I think Wikipedia:Wikietiquette#Avoid_indirect_criticism makes it clear that it is uncivil for Brewcrewer's language to clearly imply bigotry by those who support another title than that supported by the editor. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:08, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- If you assume good faith, this problem evaporates. CarolMooreDC, Wikipedia is not a battlezone. It's not a soapbox. If you just engage with other editors and listen to their concerns (and state your own) instead of trying to steamroll them with wikilayering, noticeboard threads and lengthy policy quotations, things will be much better. Jehochman Talk 19:56, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm having difficulty seeing a personal attack here by anybody. I assume Brewcrewer was not attacking Wiki editors, but rather people in general who make that allegation. However, he should tone down his language. Figureofnine (talk) 20:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)