issue is NPA, not sockpuppetry |
→User:Jimmy Hammerfist and 18.138.1.34: edited to strike out references to IP user and poss sockpuppetry; this is what I get for skimming my watchlist on the fly |
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==[[User:Jimmy Hammerfist]] and [[Special:Contributions/18.138.1.34|18.138.1.34]]== |
==[[User:Jimmy Hammerfist]]<s> and [[Special:Contributions/18.138.1.34|18.138.1.34]]</s>== |
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{{NWQA|Please report at [[WP:SPI]] [[User:Gerardw|Gerardw]] ([[User talk:Gerardw|talk]]) 00:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC) }} |
{{NWQA|Please report at [[WP:SPI]] [[User:Gerardw|Gerardw]] ([[User talk:Gerardw|talk]]) 00:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC) }} |
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These two accounts appear to be the same person (the last comment by the IP was signed "Jimmy Hammersmith"), both engaging in gratuitous personal insults on [[User talk:Jimmy Hammerfist]]. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJimmy_Hammerfist&diff=268788054&oldid=265522924 these diffs]. --[[User:Orlady|Orlady]] ([[User talk:Orlady|talk]]) 00:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC) |
<s>These two accounts appear to be the same person (the last comment by the IP was signed "Jimmy Hammersmith"), both</s> engaging in gratuitous personal insults on [[User talk:Jimmy Hammerfist]]. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJimmy_Hammerfist&diff=268788054&oldid=265522924 these diffs]. --[[User:Orlady|Orlady]] ([[User talk:Orlady|talk]]) 00:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC) |
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:I mistakenly identified the IP user as having made one of the insulting comments. The sole issue here is personal attacks; there is no sockpuppetry. --[[User:Orlady|Orlady]] ([[User talk:Orlady|talk]]) 02:44, 6 February 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 02:55, 6 February 2009
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User:Headbomb
How should I respond to this personal attack? His tactics involve ... general dishonesty, blatant lying, and general Wikilawyering , etc... He should be flat out banned from the wiki. Thunderbird2 (talk) 17:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- Reading through things. They do seem rather hostile. Going to quote one bit:
- Strong oppose. You cannot change Wikipedia policy by ignoring it. I don't have time now, but I will respond in more detail after about 10 days. Thunderbird2 (talk) 16:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Ten whole days to edit in peace and not be incessantly badgered over a dead issue? Thank you so much! When you come back, please lodge all future complaints at this e-mail address. Greg L (talk) 03:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
That seems rather uncivilized. Dream Focus (talk) 17:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- Just a reminder to notify the user you are complaining about that you filed this report. I already left a message on their talk page but in the future, please leave a note when you file a report. Thanks. The Seeker 4 Talk 17:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- Your response should be to stop forumshopping, as well as to stop your general dishonesty, quote mining, blatant lying, representation bias, and to drop the issue. Relevant links can be found in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Thunderbird2 for those who wants them. You've become a single-purpose account who spent his last YEAR crying like a baby because you didn't get your way. THAT is why you should be banned. This is a personal attack to the extent that saying User:Sarenne was disruptive. Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 18:23, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- There are better ways to deal with disruptive editors, responding by throwing around accusations and hyperbole is far from ideal regardless of the behaviour of the target. Let the admins deal with the editor and try not to get dragged down with them. --neon white talk 20:25, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with neon white; it is desirable you try to keep your cool and stay as civil as as possible, even when dealing with problem editors. If their editing is continuing to be a problem, then it should be taken to an admin noticeboard so that the community can decide if sanctions should be imposed yet. If you get dragged in and your own behaviour starts spiralling out of control as a result of another editor's, then the net loss is for the project. In this case, it is not a personal attack, but it is not the sort of commentary that one hopes to see either. Keep your cool. ;) Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:24, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- To Dream Focus: Thank you for mentioning Greg_L's behaviour. I have raised that here before and was advised by Jaysweet to await mediation. When mediation was offered, Greg_L turned it down.
- To the others: To make an accusation of dishonesty and lying without a shred of evidence is a personal attack ("Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence").
- Thunderbird2 (talk) 16:11, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with neon white; it is desirable you try to keep your cool and stay as civil as as possible, even when dealing with problem editors. If their editing is continuing to be a problem, then it should be taken to an admin noticeboard so that the community can decide if sanctions should be imposed yet. If you get dragged in and your own behaviour starts spiralling out of control as a result of another editor's, then the net loss is for the project. In this case, it is not a personal attack, but it is not the sort of commentary that one hopes to see either. Keep your cool. ;) Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:24, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- There are better ways to deal with disruptive editors, responding by throwing around accusations and hyperbole is far from ideal regardless of the behaviour of the target. Let the admins deal with the editor and try not to get dragged down with them. --neon white talk 20:25, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- To whome it may concern: What Headbomb and Greg have written cannot be considered a personal attack because what Headbomb and Greg have written are pure plain facts about Thunderbird2's poor behaviour. All the evidence of Thunderbird2's poor behaviour can be found at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Thunderbird2. That page contains all the evidence of Thunderbird2 repeatedly being dishonest, lying, forum shopping, using bad faith edits, and violating policies and guidelines. So since all the evidence is at that page then obviously Thunderbird2 is again misrepresenting the situation (deliberately lying, again) when he wrote "without a shred of evidence". Also Thunderbird2 again misrepresents the situation regarding mediation because mediation was rejected since it became obvious that Thunderbird2 previously forum shopped the same issue and was wasting the valuable time of the mediator, this is demonstrated in the RfC/U. Since it is now obvious Thunderbird2 has not modified his behaviour, as has been demonstrated by this latest attempt to forum shop here, then as reflected by the consensus shown in the RfC/U please ban Thunderbird2 to stop the user from continuously disrupting Wikipedia in the future. Fnagaton 23:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
- How should I respond to this personal attack by Fnagaton? Thunderbird2 (talk) 15:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
- It is not a "personal attack" to completely refute your false claims with the evidence and conclusions of the RfC/U regarding your bad behaviour. The fact that you have again misrepresented the situation by incorrectly trying to claim it is a personal attack goes to further demonstrate that you deliberately misrepresent (lie about) the situation and goes to further demonstrate the dishonesty of your claims. I demand at once that you retract your misrepresentation and that you comply with the demands in the RfC/U. To wit: You remove all of the personal attacks, wiki-stalking and harassment on your talk pages, you then stop misrepresenting other editors and the other points in the consensus presented in the RfC/U that stands against your behaviour. So, the question put directly to you is when are you going to correct your behaviour? Fnagaton 02:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- How should I respond to this personal attack by Fnagaton? Thunderbird2 (talk) 15:14, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
What I'm seeing from, in no particular order, Headbomb, Thunderbird2, Greg L, and Fnagaton are accusations not adequately supported by diffs. The referenced RFC/u is to me inconclusive. The idea that another user's conduct justifies violation of WP:CIVIL is incorrect. To be blunt, I am seeing evidence of a long-standing, mudslinging edit war. After six days, there is little evidence any third party editor wants to get involved. It is my suggestion the affected parties return to the appropriate talk page and begin WP:CIVIL, good faith discussions of the content issue. Gerardw (talk) 23:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- If you specifically state which diffs you think are missing I will include them. The RfC/U contains a lot of diffs of the supporting evidence of Thunderbird2's poor uncivil behaviour. For example, Thunderbird2 uses his talk page to misrepresent other editors and despite the RfC/U specifically mentioning this Thunderbird2 has not removed the uncivil harassment content. The failure to remove the harassment content demonstrates Thunderbird2 is not interested in having a civil discussion. The RfC/U is conclusive in finding that Thunderbird2 has been violating WP:DEADHORSE for example, note the RfC/U has no editor refuting the claims or evidence mentioned in the RfC/U, not even one person spoke up in defence of Thunderbird2's actions. Fnagaton 03:44, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
No further input x24 hours after suggested resolve.
This user sent another user's FAC to WP:AFD. I have my opinions about that, but I'll leave that out of this. However, the nominator of the AFD is using phrases like "DEFUNCT ROUTE FOR ALMOST 40 YEARS" and "NO AGAIN!" Something doesn't seem right about it... --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:37, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
- How does this fall under bad wikiquette? I don't think the article passes WP:N being a small route that disbanded 40 years ago. It also only served a hamlet of 38 people. If looked at the sources don't even pertain to the route, they pertain to the surrounding areas. I haven't mocked any user for giving their time for the article. I get discouraged when stuff of mine is questioned by others, but I realize it isn't personal. Every wiki user has a right to raise questions. It is a collective effort. But for some reason, User:Rschen7754, believes its personal just because I disagree with his feelings. With that said he isn't even the author of the article in question. --GroundhogTheater (talk) 00:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- It's fine to make a suggestion the article isn't needed, but the all capitals is considered shouting . Gerardw (talk) 01:53, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- My opinion is it should be only considered shouting when it is directed at another user personally. Groundhog said he was making a point, and not everyone knows every Wiki guideline through and through. He should in the future not use caps to eliminate confusion, but User:Rschen7754 also didn't need to bring this here. Let the two users settle their dispute on their own. --BurpTheBaby (Talk) 02:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- You're insulting another author's work, which can be taken as an insult to the author itself. Furthermore I do have the right to bring this up here, especially as I am an uninvolved party in the matter (it was not my article sent to AFD). --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:12, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- That doesn't really make sense -- if a comment about a piece of work is automatically about the author, then isn't all commentary about authors? And wouldn't every Afd be an insult to the work? Gerardw (talk) 02:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, it certainly could be taken that way. And that's the thing about AFD - you obviously have to criticize it somehow without seeming to be rude or insulting. But using ALL CAPS and writing it the way he did was being insulting. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:25, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- The author didn't find it insulting. Check out Rschen's talk page. He uses caps to emphasize importance in his "week of" list. That's all I was doing. I did not single out anyone by name. You need to have thicker skin Rschen. I was not personally ripping anyone. Look at the context of the caps I used. I felt that was an important sentence as I've found people don't always read everything you write. Thanks. --GroundhogTheater (talk) 05:09, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- "NO!" looks rude in just about any context. --Rschen7754 (T C) 08:09, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- The author didn't find it insulting. Check out Rschen's talk page. He uses caps to emphasize importance in his "week of" list. That's all I was doing. I did not single out anyone by name. You need to have thicker skin Rschen. I was not personally ripping anyone. Look at the context of the caps I used. I felt that was an important sentence as I've found people don't always read everything you write. Thanks. --GroundhogTheater (talk) 05:09, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, it certainly could be taken that way. And that's the thing about AFD - you obviously have to criticize it somehow without seeming to be rude or insulting. But using ALL CAPS and writing it the way he did was being insulting. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:25, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- That doesn't really make sense -- if a comment about a piece of work is automatically about the author, then isn't all commentary about authors? And wouldn't every Afd be an insult to the work? Gerardw (talk) 02:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- You're insulting another author's work, which can be taken as an insult to the author itself. Furthermore I do have the right to bring this up here, especially as I am an uninvolved party in the matter (it was not my article sent to AFD). --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:12, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- My opinion is it should be only considered shouting when it is directed at another user personally. Groundhog said he was making a point, and not everyone knows every Wiki guideline through and through. He should in the future not use caps to eliminate confusion, but User:Rschen7754 also didn't need to bring this here. Let the two users settle their dispute on their own. --BurpTheBaby (Talk) 02:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- It's fine to make a suggestion the article isn't needed, but the all capitals is considered shouting . Gerardw (talk) 01:53, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I believe that bringing an article at FAC to AFD is a violation of WP:POINT. If the subject of an article isn't notable, then its sources will be deficient for FAC purposes, and it will likely fail quickly. The fact that this didn't happen at FAC demonstrates to me that the article subject was judged to have sufficient notability by the community. The FAC would probably have been the best venue to discuss the issues he had with it. I think that while GroundhogTheater's actions in nominating the article were probably not incivil (nor do I feel they were intended to be), bringing the article to AFD shows poor judgement on his part. If the article had been in need of deletion, it would have inevitably failed FAC, and only after that happened would an AFD have been proper.
That said, I wasn't particularly happy with the tone of the AFD nomination as filed. AFDs should be brief and lay out the arguments for deletion in a calm, logical, concise method. Use of all-caps for emphasis is a bit rude...italics seems more polite. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 11:10, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- Everyone has their own style of writing. And I don't believe the article should be anywhere near where it is. I believe it fails WP:N. Please disagreed, it got shot down quick and we've moved on. Even if I'm in an extreme minority, I still have a right to my opinion. And I did put it up for a discussion. I could have been WP:BOLD and just merged it all down. What's so bad about having a discussion. I won't be a puppet and just agree with everything. That would make Wiki quite boring and monotone. --GroundhogTheater (talk) 17:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- You do have a right to express your opinion. However, when it is actively being considered for FA status, it seems like bad faith to nominate it for AFD. You have every right to argue it is not notable and to argue against its promotion to FA status. However, when enough editors not only think it is notable but also think it is deserving of FA status for it to be seriously discussed there, you shouldn't have brought it to AFD. I am certainly not saying you should be blocked for it or that you violated policies, but you really should use common sense when nominating articles for deletion, and even if you don't agree that it is notable, you should respect that consensus is against you and not nominate it for deletion during an active FAC discussion. The Seeker 4 Talk 17:50, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- It's not something I just did, I gave it alot of thought, how is it bad faith to express an opinion? It obviously didn't hinder anything. But I just believe the page is a total fraud. My friend and I broke down the sources and none of them have nothing to do with the route. It took a lot of clever writing to bring the page to where it is. Plus its sister route (that is still active) only has a one line blurb about it. You may find it unusual, but in my opinion doesn't lie between the article being FA and GA, but whether it should exist or not. --GroundhogTheater (talk) 17:54, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- It's not bad faith to express an opinion per se, but the method in which you chose to express that opinion—filing an AFD—is not the best way that you should be doing. Also, you should have looked at how the FAC was doing—if multiple users were expressing that they feel the page should be deleted, then you would have had good reason to take it to AFD. As I see it, only one other user has expressed anything anywhere close to that, and other users commented that they were being absurd and WP:POINTy. That other users were discussing the article on its other merits should have indicated that an AFD would be a waste of time as it would be likely to pass as keep (which is indeed what happened).
- Now, I'd like to address the comment you just made. Calling the article a "total fraud", and insinuating that Mitch is being "clever" in writing the page, is absolutely a textbook assumption of bad faith (you're implying that Mitch is making up stuff and using the sources to support it in an inappropriate manner). I can assure you that Mitch, while he may write articles on routes of sometimes questionable notability (though I do not feel this is one of these cases), and though he makes mistakes sometimes (as do we all), is thoroughly honest in his work. Mitch has done a lot of stellar work for the U.S. Roads WikiProject—to accuse him of dishonesty is, frankly, unthinkable. In the future please assume good faith. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 03:54, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding obscure articles, I once looked up an obscure subject on google and found it on WP. I later found out that the author of that obscure article has written hundreds of obscure articles. So it is possible that others benefit from obscure articles. Whether these are allowed or not is a WP policy question. In case you are curious, the obscure articles author is Billy Hathorn. Chergles (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Examine the sources my friend, examine the sources. Did you see the comments User:BurpTheBaby made? I'm not implying Mitch is making stuff up, but I'm rather saying that he is stretching things to create a good looking article here. I did it in college! We all have. But I say again, examine the sources my friend, examine the sources! --GroundhogTheater (talk) 07:53, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- That's still an assumption of bad faith—an assumption of good faith, as policy ascribes, would be to assume that Mitch was merely misinterpreting the sources. To express suspicions that he was intentionally trying to game the system by misusing sources is assumption of bad faith. This is a very serious allegation; you are asserting that Mitch (who, I might note, is an administrator) has malicious intent to compromise the veracity of this project. I don't find it plausible that Mitch is capable of harming the encyclopedia like that. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
- It's not something I just did, I gave it alot of thought, how is it bad faith to express an opinion? It obviously didn't hinder anything. But I just believe the page is a total fraud. My friend and I broke down the sources and none of them have nothing to do with the route. It took a lot of clever writing to bring the page to where it is. Plus its sister route (that is still active) only has a one line blurb about it. You may find it unusual, but in my opinion doesn't lie between the article being FA and GA, but whether it should exist or not. --GroundhogTheater (talk) 17:54, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
You two [BurpTheBaby and GroundhogTheater] seem to work very closely together. --Rschen7754 (T C) 08:49, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- I already told you that he's a friend of mine. You attacked him, I stuck up for him. You need to broaden your horizons on Wiki if all you've been doing is whining about people who may speak to your disliking. --BurpTheBaby (Talk) 16:03, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- As explained above ( Asking you ... ) a WQA is not a personal attack. GroundhogTheater's use of all capitals does not follow community standards for discourse. The content issue is not germane here. The You need to broaden comment is uncivil. Gerardw (talk) 17:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Possible resolution of this Wikiquette alert: Disclaimer: I have successfully worked with others in the past but have not participated in alerts before. Therefore, please allow some laxity if I am unfamiliar with any unwritten customs of this board.
The Wikipedia product should be the most important goal. Whether or not AFD was appropriate, it was done and has been concluded. Editors' energy should be primarily directed to improving the article of their choice in the most cooperative way possible. Changes in policy, such as to further define notability, may be useful depending on the editor's interests. Left unresolved is whether the tone of the original AFD was appropriate. Two possibilities are either to continue to debate that or to try to work cooperatively in other issues and leave that question unanswered. Chergles (talk) 20:41, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- However, this editor continues to be uncivil - [1] is not WP:AGF. --Rschen7754 (T C) 00:14, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- A claim of uncivil seems thin in this context, after all the explanation of the #1 wikipedia principle notes we are all biased. I'd just simply note that GHT is also inherently biased and continue the content discussion in attempting to reach WP:NPOV Gerardw (talk) 01:31, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly Gerard, I'm just looking for someone who hasn't been in the argument to determine what merit the sources have. You can't do it, and neither can I. --GroundhogTheater (talk) 16:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- Several thoughts here. 1.) I think that Rschen7754 is being overly sensitive, but I understand that given the amount of work put into the article. 2.) I think it showed poor form to put the article up for deletion. I understand that many people want to maintain a sort of status quo type of encyclopedia, but there's plenty of HD space to keep this article. 3.) FA? no, sorry - GHT does have a point about the quality of references. All official, verifiable, and all - but maps and tour books alone shouldn't be what's driving an article to Featured. 4.)Delete? I guess this is a serious question, but I can't fathom how one would come to the conclusion that this article should be deleted. It is sourced, and verifiable. As far as notable, I guess it depends on who you are. I'm sure there are thousands of people who used this road. If you're using the argument that it doesn't exist anymore - I'd counter with neither does JFK (and I don't think that article is going to be deleted any time soon).
- Comment If GHT could tone down the caps (it's a textual form of shouting that goes back to BBS and early text communication), and Rschen7754 could understand that nothing personal was meant - I think everything could be worked out. There's plenty of garage band articles out there that can be deleted, but Wikipedia should be more that "What we have", it should include, and be legacy of sorts, to our past. Well, that's my 2-cents for what it's worth. Hope you all work things out for the best. — Ched (talk) 10:36, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- Are we done here? --GroundhogTheater (talk) 18:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- This isn't my article - my concern is for the actual author. --Rschen7754 (T C) 19:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm finally chiming in on this one, I've been kind of silently watching the conversation track from the sidelines up to this point. I'm inclined to agree with everything that Ched outlined above. Rschen, Scott5114 and I have worked together in the past as part of US Roads, and they both know that I'm a reasonable person. GHT, I'm sure, understands the point that has been made about using all caps when conveying his perspective. Rshen, I know how involved you are with USRD (you KNOW I do!), and your passion for the project is more than admirable. I think the most important thing at this point is to call it a day on this one, and move forward if we can. That being said, I would like to mark this as "tentatively resolved", if everyone's copasetic with that. Edit Centric (talk) 20:03, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- Exactly Gerard, I'm just looking for someone who hasn't been in the argument to determine what merit the sources have. You can't do it, and neither can I. --GroundhogTheater (talk) 16:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- A claim of uncivil seems thin in this context, after all the explanation of the #1 wikipedia principle notes we are all biased. I'd just simply note that GHT is also inherently biased and continue the content discussion in attempting to reach WP:NPOV Gerardw (talk) 01:31, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(Moved from where I originally posted, which was a less appropriate place) Could an admin have a word with this user, please? He's new, and I left a note on his talk page because he used the f-word twice in one edit summary [2], and he took exception, leaving uncivil comments on my talk page [3] and continuing to swear in his edit summaries, like this [4]. I don't know how admins deal with this kind of thing, so here it is. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- He is continuing to attack other editors [5] Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- With a nice edit summary! [6] This editor needs to have things explained in a way that might get through to him, by someone whose words carry some weight. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:22, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- Since his behavior indicates average users will not carry any weight with their warnings, I have brought this issue to ANI. An admin there can decide to block or final warn this user as they deem appropriate. The Seeker 4 Talk 04:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks :o) Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:23, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Abusive behavior from a Wikipedia user
User:Kirihari: Wikihoarding, personal attacks, threats, gaming the system, disrespect, etc. [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13] SharkD (talk) 07:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Could you please clarify which diff shows which violation that you're asserting here? I'm trying to find the "threats" that you've mentioned, and I'll definitely click through the diffs again, jic I missed something. What I'm most amused by is the "life-changing" comments. Come on. If someone makes major changes to the article, how is that going to change one's life? Lemme take another look... Edit Centric (talk) 07:33, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- OK, as for the threats, they're not very serious but are maddening nonetheless. First, there are the edit summaries where I'm accused of violating WP:POINT for modifying content. Then there are the threats[14][15] of notifying his inside source, the Wikimedia arbiter - which was never actually done according to his contribs log. What's the point of threatening to inform a moderator? Why not just do so matter-of-factly?
- Please get rid of this annoyance, OK? :) SharkD (talk) 07:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Hehe, nice username, BTW. :) SharkD (talk) 08:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- SharkD, he is "amused" by our conversation... doesn't that tell you anything? Also, "Please get rid of this annoyance?", as if you control the admins? I have made no threats and I am not angry, by any account you have made the only threat "You don't want to go down that road with me", implying some kind of movie style threat. This is really humorous to me, you do know? Please try to be constructive so we can come to a solution. I apologize if I have offended you as I have said on my own talk page and in the article, can't we just work together to make this page as good as possible, or working together is not your style? --Kirihari (talk) 08:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- This is a perfect example of the behavior I am talking about! Here he's trying to play the two of us against each other. He knows he can't win as long as he stays on the subject, so he changes the subject to something else in order create a disruption. I've tried cooperating civily with Kirihari, but he continually stonewalls conversations by rambling on about how he's really a good guy and my friend, and how there's really an outside majority who's right and they have my best interests in mind while I'm wrong. I can't work with someone who's purposefully incoherent! If this isn't gaming the system I don't know what is! SharkD (talk) 09:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Alright, enough of the biting. I looked again, and don't see what you're talking about as far as threats, SharkD. What I DO see is an editor that cares a lot about the work that they have put into the article. Kirihari, you maybe care a bit too much, article changes aren't "life-altering", trust me on this. (You or SharkD could go make massive changes to the Foot drill article that I spent days on, and the sun will still rise tomorrow, my baby girl will still love her daddy.)
- While I agree with you on some of the article points, such as it being a list and NOT a chronology, I'm quite disappointed in BOTH SharkD and Kirihari for the move and edit warring that is happening with this article. SharkD, if Kirihari states that he / she is going to "get a mediator", that is perfectly acceptable. It is not a threat, and you shouldn't take it as such. If Kirihari feels that, instead of edit warring, he / she wishes to have third-party mediation of the issue(s), then that is a far preferrable solution than carrying on an edit war.
- As for "getting rid of this annoyance", that is ALSO not contributing to this situation being resoved. NOW, can you both work together on this article, or is the edit war (and yes, both of you are each just as culpable as the other in this!) going to result in blocks? I personally would much rather see the two of you working together, its quite apparent that you both have an interest in the subject matter! If both of you are serious about doing some good with the article and the encyclopedia as a whole, here is what I suggest;
- Wipe the slate clean. What's in the past is in the past, period.
- Leave the article content alone for now.
- Start a new dialogue on the talk page, stating and enumerating your individual aims for the article's improvement.
- I (that's me, Edit Centric) will join you over on that project, to provide a third set of eyes and constructive comment on each change, to aid in consensus-building.
- NO CHANGES COMMITTED unless by consensus.
- This process would be in place for as long as necessary. It may take a few days, it may take a few weeks. The aim is to get everyone working toward the same goals. Is everyone okay with that? Edit Centric (talk) 08:14, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Frick, I think I love you Edit Centric! HEHEHE, Yeah, hell yeah, listen I will work with anyone who wants to make this article better. I will also start reading up on Wikipedia guidelines because I think I am lacking. I just really want to do my best and help make an awesome article and help get it moved from "Low priority" to at least "Mid" heheheh. Slate is clean! I will start a fresh edit tomorrow and hopefully we can come to a nice solution or solutions! Space combat sims are more than a hobby for my wife and I though.. ehhehe I can't help get excited about them, I mean especially with games like the new X Terran Conflict where the entire earth solar system is remarkably recreated, sorry for always getting worked up, but damnitt I think I own most of the games on the list, I will do my very best to be civil and more than understanding to other people's changes and try to work better towards a common goal. --Kirihari (talk) 08:20, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, that's one. SharkD, are you on-board with this? Also Kirihari, please start by discussing what your ideas are and what you would like to accomplish, on the talk page. Don't just jump in and start making changes to the article its self just yet. Let's first build a constructive dialogue, then we'll move on to implementation. Edit Centric (talk) 08:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- I've tried working with him in the past. It hasn't lead to anything positive. It hasn't even been possible to follow along with the discussion, much less participate, given how he commandeered the Talk page[16]. And, I was flamed[17] just for pointing this out! I don't see what you expect me to do. SharkD (talk) 09:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, here's another threat that I missed the first time: [18]. "Basically add something to this conversation or start a new one, your antics are boring me." This is basically the second thing he said to me since I found the page. And, this is in response to merely suggesting that non-3D space sims be added to the list. This has characterized the tone of the discussions from the start. But I see you guys are getting along so well now... SharkD (talk) 09:54, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- I've tried working with him in the past. It hasn't lead to anything positive. It hasn't even been possible to follow along with the discussion, much less participate, given how he commandeered the Talk page[16]. And, I was flamed[17] just for pointing this out! I don't see what you expect me to do. SharkD (talk) 09:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, that's one. SharkD, are you on-board with this? Also Kirihari, please start by discussing what your ideas are and what you would like to accomplish, on the talk page. Don't just jump in and start making changes to the article its self just yet. Let's first build a constructive dialogue, then we'll move on to implementation. Edit Centric (talk) 08:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Frick, I think I love you Edit Centric! HEHEHE, Yeah, hell yeah, listen I will work with anyone who wants to make this article better. I will also start reading up on Wikipedia guidelines because I think I am lacking. I just really want to do my best and help make an awesome article and help get it moved from "Low priority" to at least "Mid" heheheh. Slate is clean! I will start a fresh edit tomorrow and hopefully we can come to a nice solution or solutions! Space combat sims are more than a hobby for my wife and I though.. ehhehe I can't help get excited about them, I mean especially with games like the new X Terran Conflict where the entire earth solar system is remarkably recreated, sorry for always getting worked up, but damnitt I think I own most of the games on the list, I will do my very best to be civil and more than understanding to other people's changes and try to work better towards a common goal. --Kirihari (talk) 08:20, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- SharkD, he is "amused" by our conversation... doesn't that tell you anything? Also, "Please get rid of this annoyance?", as if you control the admins? I have made no threats and I am not angry, by any account you have made the only threat "You don't want to go down that road with me", implying some kind of movie style threat. This is really humorous to me, you do know? Please try to be constructive so we can come to a solution. I apologize if I have offended you as I have said on my own talk page and in the article, can't we just work together to make this page as good as possible, or working together is not your style? --Kirihari (talk) 08:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
SharkD - Are you saying above that you're not open to informal mediation? You're the one who brought this to WQA. If you were hoping to simply "get rid of this annoyance", this was not the place to make that happen. Those that mediate here are all about the dialogue, all about cooperation, unless a user is just not willing to give that a try, then other avenues are looked at and considered. In this case, I truly think that there is a chance to get something good from all of this. I have already gotten Kirihari to agree to the stips above. If I can mediate the Duke Math Journal article (and I know SQUAT about the Duke Math Journal!), then I can surely get you two to work constructively on a list of video games! Come on, SharkD. Give this a try? Edit Centric (talk) 09:16, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I just browsed over to the new diffs that you posted, and I see absolutely no instance where you were "flamed". Criticized, yes. And maybe that criticizm was a bit unfounded. But definitely not flamed. Trust me, I've been flamed by some of the best in the biz, from BBS systems to IRC, to the web, so I know flaming when I see it. As for the restructuring of the talk page, that has already been addressed, so it's moot now. Trust me, SharkD, accepting this framework for informal mediation is a win-win scenario, for you, for Kirihari, and for Wikipedia. Edit Centric (talk) 09:31, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- We must be looking at different pages. SharkD (talk) 09:35, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Again, are you turning down the offer for informal mediation? If so, I'll gladly change the "In progress" template at the top to the "Stuck" template. I suspect however, that others would encourage you to take me up on the offer. (Come on, I'm offering to help you guys on this thing, in the midst of my own personal emergency up in Anchorage! Take...the offer.) Edit Centric (talk) 09:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
In other words, the purpose of this exercise was simply to vent? Okay, that in and of itself is a good thing. As I stated previously, the edit warring was a shared culpability. However, your own words here, "I don't feel I need assitance (sic) on the article itself; it's a small article!" sound dangerously like WP:OWN, which has me honestly concerned. At this point, I'd like some other third-parties to comment on this. Edit Centric (talk) 10:14, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Vent? You're putting words in my mouth.And the WP:OWNership is only true if I in fact intend to continue editing the article. Look, I came here to report incivility. The template at the top of the article states that this is the place to come to do so. I assumed that the person would be warned or reprimanded in some way. It says, "[This] is a non-binding noticeboard where users can report impolite, uncivil or other difficult communications with editors (...) [or] advice, informal mediation...". It says "or" to come for "advice and informal mediation". It doesn't say "and". There's no mention of mediation with regard to article content. As for the incivility, WP:Civility lists:- Rudeness
- Insults and name-calling
- Judgmental tone in edit summaries (e.g. "snipped rambling crap") or talk-page posts ("that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen")
- Gross profanity or indecent suggestions directed at another contributor
- Belittling contributors because of their language skills or word choice
- Taunting; deliberately pushing others to the point of breaching civility even if not seeming to commit such a breach themselves
- Ill-considered accusations of impropriety; for instance, calling someone a liar, or accusing him/her of slander or libel
- Lies, including deliberately asserting false information on a discussion page in order to mislead one or more editors
- Quoting another editor out-of-context in order to give the impression that he or she hold views they do not hold, or in order to malign them
- Making personal attacks, including but not limited to racial, ethnic, sexual, and religious slurs
- Using derogatory language towards other contributors or, in general, referring to groups such as social classes, nationalities, ethnic groups, religious groups, or others in a derogatory manner
- Harassment
- Feigned incomprehension, "playing dumb"
- These are all things which Kirihari has subjected upon me--not some!
- Finally, please don't break normal discussion flow. I find that disruptive.
- As for the article--well, it's a list article. How much more material can it require? Going through this entire process of mediation just to add one or two items to a list seems silly, and is rather embarrassing. SharkD (talk) 10:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Woops! I misread that last post. I thought it was an straight-up admonishment. SharkD (talk) 12:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Articles are always in a state of change. When one party is willing to mediate, and the other party is unwilling, it says a lot about both parties. Mediation requires you to use the past as a route forward. A failure to try is a violation of the spirit of Wikipedia Community. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 10:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- As I've said, I've already tried working with Kirihari, and it has not been successful. And there has already been mediation, whether by asking on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games or by patiently weighing Randomran's third opinions. Other editors have als come to voice their opinions. Yet Kirihari continued to spew his vitriol[19]. This is not a case where mediation hasn't already been pursued!!! SharkD (talk) 11:06, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Would you please use the PREVIEW button before saving your changes to any article from now on. It should not take you 4 edits to write one paragraph. Use the preview button at all times (I could template you about it, but I won't .. yet) (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 11:34, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think SharkD should consider carefully the sentence already quoted:
It is a non-binding noticeboard where users can report impolite, uncivil or other difficult communications with editors, to seek perspective, advice, informal mediation, or a referral to a more appropriate forum.
- It is a misunderstanding to suppose that means a user can bind administrators to provide only perspective, or only advice or only informal mediation or only referral etc. just by demanding. Unless SharkD is willing to cease trying to prosecute Kirihari here and now, and accept Edit Centric's condition Wipe the slate clean. What's in the past is in the past, period. then nothing can be done here and it looks like SharkD is the problem. BTW I have zero interest in the article. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well all, I just read through the entirety of the article talk page, (pretty good for 03:50 in the blessed AM!) and I've come to the healthy conclusion that BOTH users need warned at this point, about edit warring, maintaining civility, ownership of an article and making false accusations. (To include ballooning otherwise true statements up in scope!)
- Right now, it looks like both of these editors are making an honest effort at working the issues over on the article talk page. As long as constructive communication is adhered to, I'm hopeful that this will work itself out. As for me, this one has me "brayne-fryde", I'm hitting the snore shelf! Good luck, all! Edit Centric (talk) 11:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
- It is a misunderstanding to suppose that means a user can bind administrators to provide only perspective, or only advice or only informal mediation or only referral etc. just by demanding. Unless SharkD is willing to cease trying to prosecute Kirihari here and now, and accept Edit Centric's condition Wipe the slate clean. What's in the past is in the past, period. then nothing can be done here and it looks like SharkD is the problem. BTW I have zero interest in the article. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm tagging this one as resolved for archiving, as both editors seem to have a new perspective over at the article's talk page. Hopefully everything remains above board and "on the level". Edit Centric (talk) 05:58, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
After I AFDed one of his articles and reverted some of his edits, Mickproper seriously lost it and posted this to my talk page and sent me a personal threat in email, which I took seriously enough to report to my local police. ("just so you know you punk...when I find out your real identity, you're going to have a VERY bad day!") I don't wish to be involved with this guy anymore. Someone should keep an eye on him, though - I think he is well-intentioned, but his edits are frequently unsourced, unverifiable, and/or contain original research. And he has a temper. Brianyoumans (talk) 23:31, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
- This needs to be taken to WP:ANI ASAP please. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 23:58, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
- Done, thanks. Brianyoumans (talk) 04:29, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
They seem to be tag-teaming to prevent changes to the article Masonic conspiracy theories. There is reason to suspect that at least 2 of them (User:Blueboar and User:MSJapan) may engage in edit-warring as well as revert-warring. User:Blueboar has already been blocked for violating 3RR. This has been mentioned in the noticeboards of: Edit warring, Conflict of Interest and Neutral point of view. Ukufwakfgr (talk) 21:52, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
- It certainly has and in AN/EW forum shopping like this is frowned upon. Theresa Knott | token threats 22:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
- There seem to be several concurring problems. Ukufwakfgr (talk) 22:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
- No it's clearly the same dispute and one place is enough. I suggest this board isn't that place. Theresa Knott | token threats 22:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
- There seem to be several concurring problems. Ukufwakfgr (talk) 22:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Administrator incivility
I would like the opinion of other editors and even more so administrators on the following matter:
I placed a requested move template on {{Major UK railway stations}} suggesting a move to Major British railway stations however I misread the instructions and placed it incorrectly. This caused an administrator User:Ddstretch to place a message on my talk page. I believe the tone was harsh and aggressive as the administrator threatened to take action against me for being disruptive. I feel this was unfair as the admin was not civil and good faith did not cross their mind.
The admin also claims I threatened editors who removed the template. This is simply untrue which can be seen on revision history of {{Major UK railway stations}} and Special:Contributions/Welshleprechaun. Furthermore, the admin claims I made threats of reporting people for vandalsim if they revert the changes in good faith. While I admit that I misjudged that the reverts by an editor on {{Major UK railway stations}} were vandalism, it is clear that they were not in good faith, given the lengthy discussion with the editor, User:Hammersfan, on the talk page of {{Major UK railway stations}}.
I accused the admin of hypocrisy, which I didn't intend as a personal attack, merely what I believe is a fact, as he accused me of being uncivil and not assuming good faith, given the admins incivility and non assumption of good faith on my part, to which the admin replied sarcastically Thank you for your suggestion about me being civil, and I suggest you review WP:CIVIL.
So I would like to ask editors and administrators if this administrator acted unreasonably and unnecessarily hostile towards me. I would be happy to answer any questions or provide any more evidence on the matter. Thank you Welshleprechaun (talk) 15:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
This editor has been an editor for over one year, has been blocked previously for edit-warring, and caused problems some time ago for posting lists of uncivil editors on his user page. Given that he has been an editor for over a year, placing a RM template on the main template page was certainly disruptive, and I consider I was correct to point that out to him. That he also reverted a different editor's prior reversal of edits to the same template with an edit-summary including an accusation of vandalism certainly was an inappropriate act first mesage second message, since edit-summaries remain unless removed by oversight, and one is allowed under WP:BRD to do what that editor did. In the light of this, a stern warning was certainly justified, and his accusation of hypocrisy on my part did little other than confirm that the stern warning was appropriate in the first place. Hypocrisy can be nothing other than a personal attack since it roughly implies that I behaved in a morally poor way in being inconsistent. The attribution of "sarcastically" in the above message is an interpretation of my message that also fails to assume good faith. DDStretch (talk) 15:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)- (reposted because of clarity expansion and edit conflicts) This editor has been an editor for over one year, has been blocked previously for edit-warring, and caused problems some time ago for posting lists of uncivil editors on his user page. Given that he has been an editor for over a year, placing a RM template on the main template page was certainly disruptive, and I consider I was correct to point that out to him. That he also reverted a different editor's prior reversal of edits to the same template with an edit-summary including an accusation of vandalism certainly was an inappropriate act first mesage second message, since edit-summaries remain unless removed by oversight, and one is allowed under WP:BRD to do what that editor did. In the light of this, a stern warning was certainly justified, and his accusation of hypocrisy on my part did little other than confirm that the stern warning was appropriate in the first place. Hypocrisy can be nothing other than a personal attack since it roughly implies that I behaved in a morally poor way in being inconsistent. The attribution of "sarcastically" in the above message is an interpretation of my message that also fails to assume good faith. DDStretch (talk) 15:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- I admitted I placed the template incorrectly and you were quite right to point it out, but not in a hostile and uncivil manner given that I have never come across you before. I considered the edits in question vandalism (which I now understand was wrong)because I believe the editor failed to respect the rule of taking any addition/removal to the talk page first. I removed those stations after there was little reply to my discussion on the talk page. However the matter is the admin's unnecessary aggressive tone in pointing out what I did was wrong. Welshleprechaun (talk) 15:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- Effect of the misplaced RM template on the template itself, leading to its propagation on all articles the template was used on: [ here]. Given the scale of problems, I do consider that the stern warning was justified, especially in the light of the inappropriate edit-summaries and the length of time the editor had been on wikipedia. DDStretch (talk) 15:48, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- Did it cross the administrator's mind that my incorrect placing of a template was a mistake? If not, they must have assumed I placed it deliberately to cause disruption. That is not assuming good faith. If it did, why was such a hostile warning given Surely a kind message indicating that I had done so incorrectly and advising me of the correct procedure was warranted. Welshleprechaun (talk) 15:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but the above message contains an instance of the fallacy of False Dilemma along with speculation about motives. Here is the message I posted to Welshleprechaun that seems to have caused so much ousrage. I contend it is form, but not uncivil or inappropriate:
DDStretch (talk) 16:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)I have removed the wikipedia discussion template from the template page as it was completely misplaced and disruptive to other articles. If you wish to raise the matter of the contents of the template, you should do so in the normal way on the template talk page, and should then announce the discussion on the talk pages of all the articles affected by this as well as related project talk pages. Additionally, to threaten editors who removed the RM template in good faith is borderline disruptive itself and does not encourage a collaborative atmosphere. I suggest that if you think there are changes needed to this template, you try to foster discussion and achieve consensus by using the normal routes for doing so, rather than use such a non-standard and disruptive way of trying to achieve this coupled with threats of reporting people for vandalsim if they revert the changes in good faith. If you reinstate the template in the form it was before I reverted it, I will take administrative action against you as a means of preventing further disruption. DDStretch (talk) 17:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but the above message contains an instance of the fallacy of False Dilemma along with speculation about motives. Here is the message I posted to Welshleprechaun that seems to have caused so much ousrage. I contend it is form, but not uncivil or inappropriate:
(outdent) Ok, I have read the Template Talk, and both Welsh & DDS's Talkpages, plus the information above. Let me clearly note that although I have been editing Wikipedia for 3 years, I am not an admin at this point in time, and that I have spent a lot of time assisting here in Wikiquette.
One of the key tenets of WP:CIVILITY/WP:NPA is to discuss edits and not editors. You added a template wrongly. It was removed and you reverted. It was removed again, which you reverted. The "stern warning" above is not an administrator type of "warning", it is a seasoned editor type of warning - indeed, it's extremely descriptive of what and why, and does its very best to discuss the brutal repercussions of specific edits and not editors. The paragraph details why it was removed, recommends discussion, advises against threatening to "report" editors who revert you, and encourages discussion. This "warning" is far more verbose than a standard warning, and indeed appears to be agood learning message. Because the multiple additions of the template caused disruption throughout Wikipedia, he was required (after 3 times) to warn you about some form of "administrative action". It could have been article protection, or even a block ... it is a very mild, non-specific warning, and is the only real "admin" portion.
Although I have trouble seeing "threats" when someone simply says "I will report you for vandalism" because I say "if I did AGF edits, go ahead, report me" (we all know that ANI Reporters who were disruptive to begin with usually get the bad end of Admin action in that situation).
The warning was stern, yet polite. It met WP:NPA and because the template was re-added multiple times, WP:AGF does not apply - the FIRST time was AGF, the repetitions were not.
Welsh, if you disagree, you may take this to WP:ANI or even WP:RFC. However, at this point, I would suggest that the severity of the first addition was ignored, the repeats could not be. Rather than block first and advise later, you were politely and properly (and clearly) educated. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 17:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't revert the removal of a WP:RM template. Where did this accusation come from? I reverted edits by a user that added Belfast stations. Welshleprechaun (talk) 17:19, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- The important thing is you reverted someone who reverted you. The action is "bold, revert, discuss" not "bold, revert, revert the first revert and demand they discuss it and so on." You were engaged in an edit war over a template that appears on many articles, which is disruptive. You then improperly added a RM template, which also turned out to be disruptive. The administrator in question warned you sternly, but did not accuse you of intentionally being disruptive, he simply told you your actions were disruptive and to stop. Any user would have been justified to do what the admin did. He was firm, but not incivil, especially considering your own refusal to refrain from reverting someone while a discussion was ongoing. In response to your question in your first post here, no the admin was not unnecessarily hostile, was not unreasonable and did not act in an uncivil manner. I believe the best course of action in this case would be to learn from the situation and walk away with the intention of discussing a change when you are reverted, not engaging in an edit war. You can let a change you don't like stand while discussing it rather than continually reverting it. If you let it stand and discuss it, you will not be accused of edit warring and will not be blocked for edit warring. If you do engage in edit warring, other editors will be less likely to assume good faith on your part. The Seeker 4 Talk 17:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- Concur with TheSeeker4 above. (Took the words right outta my head there, Seeker4!) Edit Centric (talk) 17:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- But what I'm saying is that I added the requested name change template incorrectly by mistake (once). Fair enough, I should have been told that - but a polite notice was all that was needed and the admin did not assume that I put that template there in good faith. There was certainly no need for a stern warning against being disruptive, or for: If you reinstate the template in the form it was before I reverted it, I will take administrative action against you as a means of preventing further disruption. The reverting of edits of a different topic is completely unrelated to the above! I reverted edits of a user who did not respect the rules of adding/removing stations without discussion. I said to this user that if he persisted I'd report him for vandalism, which I have now accepted was wrong, as the editor's reverting is not classed as vandalism. Welshleprechaun (talk) 17:48, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- Furthermore, the admin falsely accused me of reverting the removal of a WP:RM template and threatening editors who removed it! Welshleprechaun (talk) 17:51, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- (Puts the "time out" sign up) Okay. Lemme take another look at this one's edit history. As both TheSeeker4 and Bwilkins know, I'm a reasonable person, and I'm all about second chances and second looks. So I'll look again. I have to tell you though Welshleprechaun, on the face of this, it looks like Seeker4's assessment of things is on the level... Edit Centric (talk) 17:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The number of edits you (Welsh.) were doing around that time to the template did cause some confusion, but that is minor, and I don't think it is wise to attempt to mount a complaint about me on the basis that I got temporarily confused about a set of interacting disruptive edits you were doing. The facts speak for themselves: on two counts (edit-warring and the addition of a RM template incorrectly) your edits were disruptive (which makes no assumption about intentionality), and I felt I had to make some comment about it, especially since you are already established as an editor. The notice I placed on your page was polite, yet firm, and I intended it to be educational about what to do. I am sad that your responses were so negative and have now gone on for so long. I am also, I might say, sad to read that you have included accusations of "hypocrisy" and other such things in your later messages. I pointed out that you have been in trouble before for edit warring (2 blocks) and for including inappropriate information about other editors on your user page which you were obliged to remove, and that told me that you were in need of some slightly firm guidance. I think you could benefit from reviewing WP:CIVIL, and WP:NPA, because you have been on wikipedia for over a year (almost two), and I think it would be of definite use for you, as you seem to have been making effective edits otherwise. I hope you can accept this advice in the spirit it is offered. I apologise for the upset this may have brought to you, and I apologise for the slight confusion that the number of edits you were doing to the template caused me, but I do believe that my actions were justified, and the confusion does not change the main substance of the firm warning I gave you. DDStretch (talk) 18:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- I'm seeing exactly what ddstretch is referring to above in the edit histories (there's one of the VERY few words I have trouble pluralizing!) that I'm reviewing. Welsh, what it looks like from my three monitors here is an edit war, regardless of what it was concerning. WP:BRD definitely was tossed aside, as was WP:AGF. While I tend to side with WP:BOLD, I also know the value of having the other policies and guidelines in place, and like to take those into account when performing edits. If you get reverted, go back to the talk page and discuss it again. By all means, do not get yourself involved in an edit war, that becomes detrimental in so many different ways its pitiful! Edit Centric (talk) 18:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Ddstretch, I hope you can see why I took your message as impolite but, as I have said before, I understand and approve of you pointing out that I incorrectly added the RM template. Also, I hope you can see that it was a simple misunderstanding and I did not revert it, nor threaten an editor who removed it, nor would revert it if it had been explained that it was incorrectly placed.
I understand the problems of edit warring and apologise for it, however the reverts I made were edits by a user who has continuously not respected the rules of adding/removing a station, also this does not excuse edit warring. In fact I have been working on an FAQ in my sandbox for this template to prevent further edit wars taking place on this page. You were quite right to warn me for the edit war but my intentions were to prevent one (one of the edit summaries), but I still maintain that you could have been less firm with regards to my addition of the RM template. My edit was indeed disruptive, but not intentionally disruptive, and I feel that called for a more politer tone. So if you can where I'm coming from, I'm happy to let the issue rest and we'll say no more about it, but before we can do so, would you mind having a word with the user who has been making these edits, User:Hammersfan, as I feel the uncivil messages of this user[20][21] have contributed to the dispute. Welshleprechaun (talk) 18:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- We're almost there with this one. The "I'll let it rest as long as" is a bit of a reach, but comes from a reasonable place, IMHO. I'm sure that DDStretch would be open to moving into the "mediator seat" in that aspect, am I right DDS? Edit Centric (talk) 19:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict reply to Welshlepechaun) I do, of course, see why you took my message as being impolite, but I just do not think that you were reasonable to do so, and it appears that the others from whom you asked impartial advice here agree with me. Editors who are criticized often react badly as it can be upsetting, and I appreciate that you may be upset, and, as I said, I am sorry for that. I would like to comment that the obligation was on you to explain why you made the edits (under the WP:BRD guidelines), rather reimplement the changes and then demand that the editor who reverted you explain why some action you had done was incorrect: that is how the burden of evidence applies in these cases. Additionally, I consider that saying in an edit summary that an editor will be reported for some violation and in another to the same editor labelling their actions as vandalism is rather inflammatory, especially since at the bottom of this was a content dispute that had descended into an edit-war! As I said, I can understand why you think what you do about these incidents and my messages to you, but I just don't think that your view is reasonable given the problems pointed out by myself and the other commentators here. I appreciate that you are sorry for the problems, though, and I hope that you can continue to be an effective contributor to wikipedia. Let's let it rest now, ok? I have happily given the editor you asked me about some advice about his editing style. DDStretch (talk) 19:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
User:Dekkappai
For some reason, User:Dekkappai is making a variety of seemingly personal attacks against me regarding an AfD.[22][23][24] I can't remember ever having any personal issues with him, so I don't know where this apparent hostility it coming from. There is nothing wrong with the AfD nom that I can see. It certainly isn't a bad faith nomination but for some reason appears to seriously be ticking some people off, particularly Dekkappai. I tried noting to him that he was making personal attacks, but he ignored my response and continued with more. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:11, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Comment None of those are personal attacks, and your nominations of that material are starting to look a little like some sort of personal grudge. §FreeRangeFrog 01:33, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- A response from someone not involved in the AfD would be useful, and I don't see how my nomination of that article is any kind of "personal grudge". Previously kept articles have been deleted in subsequent AfDs after consensus and guidelines changed. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Comments about articles / actions -- in this case the Afd -- are generally not considered uncivil or personal attacks.
If, as indicated below, this is the second Afd nomination in 2.5 months, that does seems a bit peculiar.Gerardw (talk) 02:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)- It is not the second nomination in 2.5 months, as noted below. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Comments about articles / actions -- in this case the Afd -- are generally not considered uncivil or personal attacks.
- A response from someone not involved in the AfD would be useful, and I don't see how my nomination of that article is any kind of "personal grudge". Previously kept articles have been deleted in subsequent AfDs after consensus and guidelines changed. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- My "Personal attacks" are against the AfDs the editor has taken against a series of extremely notable DVDs. I've said nothing personal, and will not comment further at this second waste of editing time. Dekkappai (talk) 01:18, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I've not been involved in any of these discussions or AfDs. I would have thought that the second nomination in 2.5 months by the same editor might get people annoyed, especially when the first nomination received a very large number of opinions that the material should be kept. In 2.5 months, the consensus is unlikely to have changed so radically, though it could have happened, and the burden of evidence would rest with Collectonian to show that it had. So, I do think the decision to try a second nomination in such a comparatively short time may well have contributed to the idea that it was time-wasting if such evidence was not gathered and is not forthcoming. Collectonian states that "Previously kept articles have been deleted in subsequent AfDs after consensus and guidelines changed." so, perhaps this applied here. Would he/she care to provide the evidence that the guidelines for such material has changed in a way that would have affected the retention of the material? Or would he/she let us know what the evidence was that led he/she to think that consensus had changed enough so that a quick second nomination was justified? Being able to do this would certainly change the view I am getting of this matter just now. DDStretch (talk) 01:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Umm...please check the date again. That's 1 year, 2.5 months, not 2.5 months. It closed 26 November 2007, this is February 2009 :) I'd never do an AfD on a keep article after only 2 months unless there was a seriously radical change in policy. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:03, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry. I got my years mixed up (its still early in the year, and it is late at night for me). You are correct about the time and date. My mistake. However, you did mention that consensus could change or that guidelines could change that would justify a re-submission to AfD, and so it would help if you could provide us with the information, as I requested in my previous message. It would help us understand the situation better. DDStretch (talk) 02:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- WP:N is being more strictly enforced than it was a year ago, and its wording has changed quite a bit in the last year.[25]. The same with WP:NOT.[26], including the addition of the note that Wikipedia is not: "A complete exposition of all possible details. Rather, an article is a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject". Overall consensus also appeared to change, as many DVD articles have been deleted between that previous AfD and this one, showing that the overall consensus is that DVD releases should not have separate articles apart from their actual series content. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry. I got my years mixed up (its still early in the year, and it is late at night for me). You are correct about the time and date. My mistake. However, you did mention that consensus could change or that guidelines could change that would justify a re-submission to AfD, and so it would help if you could provide us with the information, as I requested in my previous message. It would help us understand the situation better. DDStretch (talk) 02:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- I see no personal attack, just legitimate criticism. No one has a problem with the article, so let it be, and stop trying to find an excuse to delete every single article you can. If people voted to keep it before, then why try to delete it yet again? You said before on your own user page, you nominate something for deletion if you don't believe there are a lot of active editors around to protest. You have made 368 attempts so far, to have articles deleted so far. http://toolserver.org/~sql/afd.php?user=Collectonian And while some of those may have deserved deletion, the majority of them would've probably helped wikipedia, and couldn't have hurt it by just leaving them alone. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean you should find an excuse to delete it, if no one is around to vote to stop you. Dream Focus (talk) 02:13, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- You have been warned repeated by an admin to stop putting false words in my mouth and to stop throwing yourself into conversations just to take snipes at me. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 02:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- No, I have not. I have had you constantly accuse me of nonsense, to the same administrator, who then comes to my talk page, and discusses it with me. Dream Focus (talk) 02:38, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Comment. I see both parties as being a bit, shall we say, snarky. Frankly the level of hostility is evident all around. I think, in time, both parties will look back at their comments and regret some of their statements. This isn't a battleground and words aren't ours to use as weapons here. Before the AfD closes it may be helpful to go over previous statements and strike anything that may seem overtly hostile. These are just articles but editors are actual people and we need you both. -- Banjeboi 03:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Comment: As far as I can tell the editor in question is just frustrated that an article previously kept and that clearly can be improved using secondary sources has been renominated instead of improved. Should he be more measured in his comments, maybe, but I can understand the frustration there and can somewhat see where he is coming from in his concern here as well. In any event, editors should remember both to maintain civility, but also that deletion is a last resort and that obviously improveable content should be improved and that renominations of kept articles can and will be viewed as problematic, especially as there is sufficient past consensus that these sorts of DVD articles are notable as seen at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Buffy the Vampire Slayer DVDs (2nd nomination) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Simpsons DVDs. Finally, it seems that there is overly aggresive delete comments as well, such as this, which dismisses the keep arguments and applies hyperbole to the article. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 04:49, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) It is pretty bad form for the same editor to re-nominate the same article for AfD after the community accepted the article the first time - it shows a grudge. Indeed, I always recommend that the same editor should not CSD then AfD the same article, so 2 nom's for AfD is not according to Hoyle in that light. I would also remind all parties of the AfD etiquette section. Collectionian, I generally appreciate your editing, but I see an issue in your 2 most recent visits here to WQA: when challenged by a 3rd party, you challenge them on something (usually wrongly) in an apparent attempt to discredit their contribution. That said (and oddly enough), one of the most uncivil statements I have seen in this whole process was Dekkappai's statement above about wasting editing time: it's likely just the way it reads (I hope) but it's dripping in a tone of absolute disgust towards an editor - however, I'm not suggesting this is in any way worth additional discussion. Remember, an editor's responsibility is to try to improve an article before trying to delete it. As nobody's wrists are truly being slapped at this point in time, let's get back to editing/improving articles. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 10:23, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, but there is absolutely nothing stated anywhere in any guideline or policy saying that you can not or should not re-nominate an article for AfD just because you did the first AfD, nor is there any issue with an article CSDing then AfDing an article (indeed, that's beyond common). The article showed no improvement in over a year, it showed no notability in over a year, and notability requirements, to me, had seemed to become stronger, there by making it worth a new discussion. Consensus can and does change, hence a new discussion. It has nothing to do with a grudge (grudge against who, I might ask? Half the editors from the first don't even seem to be around anymore). Also, it really isn't just me I think Dekkappai is being uncivil towards.[27][28] I'm the first to admit I can lose my temper sometimes, but really whether you agree the article should be deleted or not, there is no valid reason to attack me for wanting to revisit the issue well beyond the allowed time to renominate the article for deletion, and after giving ample time for the issues to be fixed. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 14:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Careful ... don't go biting the folks who generally support you. I said that "I recommend..." a course of action. In the absence of a guideline one uses common sense. In other words, if you can ever be accused of "having a grudge" then it's possibly not a good course of action. Don't accuse me of attacking, I'm the one trying to resolve a civility issue here. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't mean you attacking, I meant Dekkappai and the others. I certainly didn't intend to "bite" you (I no cannibal) :) Sorry I wasn't clearer there. And I still don't see how it can be seen as a grudge? Its not like I sat around for over a year going "oh man, I really want this crap deleted...how long before I AfD it again." I just came across it again and noticed it had the same issues, checked the talk page, was reminded of the AfD, and felt like a new discussion should be started to see if it was still considered notable under the current guidelines. I just don't get all of the hostile responses in the AfD from one or two editors, though seeing the start of this, I wonder if others in the AfD mistakenly believe its only been 2 months instead of over a year? -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 17:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Careful ... don't go biting the folks who generally support you. I said that "I recommend..." a course of action. In the absence of a guideline one uses common sense. In other words, if you can ever be accused of "having a grudge" then it's possibly not a good course of action. Don't accuse me of attacking, I'm the one trying to resolve a civility issue here. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- If I may butt in, Bwilkins. I am confused... You say that you find my statement about this action being a waste of editing time to be be highly incivil, and then you encourage us to get back to work editing articles... You have just restated my position in different words. I would like to point out that I was in the midst of doing just that-- adding sources to these articles in preparation for their expansion-- at the exact time that the nominator brought this action against me. Again, it is apparently "incivil" to state the obvious, but the nominator shows every indication of intending to re-nominate these articles if they are not improved... Driving well-intentioned contributors away from these articles is hardly a way to improve them. I'll think about adding to the articles later, but I am finished with this (as you and I both seem to characterize it) edit-time-wasting drama. Regards. Dekkappai (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with you on the fact that Collectonian's actions driving away new editors. The history of Lake Placid 2 shows she kept reverting what the creator of the article did, and then posting threats to have him banned on his talk page, instead of actually explaining to the first time editor what he was doing wrong. She then blanked his User Page, which he had used as a sandbox for working on his article. I undid this, saying she had no right to do such a thing to someone's user page. Her attitude is always to delete things without discussion, and threatening to have people banned, instead of actual speaking to them and explaining what is wrong. And if anyone disagrees with her, she accuses them of attacking her, and complains to someone to have them banned, distorting the issue so it sounds like the conflict was about something totally unrelated. Dream Focus (talk) 02:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- Just for a historical perspective, Dream Focus has a history [29] of personal attacks against Collectonian. Dayewalker (talk) 02:16, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with you on the fact that Collectonian's actions driving away new editors. The history of Lake Placid 2 shows she kept reverting what the creator of the article did, and then posting threats to have him banned on his talk page, instead of actually explaining to the first time editor what he was doing wrong. She then blanked his User Page, which he had used as a sandbox for working on his article. I undid this, saying she had no right to do such a thing to someone's user page. Her attitude is always to delete things without discussion, and threatening to have people banned, instead of actual speaking to them and explaining what is wrong. And if anyone disagrees with her, she accuses them of attacking her, and complains to someone to have them banned, distorting the issue so it sounds like the conflict was about something totally unrelated. Dream Focus (talk) 02:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
user:aaronjhill
user:aaronjhill needs someone to help him understand wp:etiquette, especially wp:npa. He has been around since August 2008, and contributed valueable content. Yet he has trouble understanding how wikipedia works, eg how one talks to other editors, how one signs his posts, how to upload a new version of or move images, how to source etc. On his talkpage, there is a record of other editors trying to help him, yet I am convinced that much more help is needed.
He however refused to take criticism and advise from me, and instead attacked me personally multiple times in one thread. I decided not to bite him, have the issue I had with him resolved (an unsourced map, for which he provided sources in the meantime), and now I am backing out. However his rants I do not take that easy, and his behaviour will certainly bring him in trouble when he encounters someone not as patient as me. I therefore think he needs someone not yet involved to explain to him where he can get technical help, what the important guidelines are and what behaviour is not tolerated.
I notified aaronjhill of this thread here. Skäpperöd (talk) 10:54, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- I have left a note about signing posts. I agree that the user needs to read the Welcome Message that was left on his Talkpage a long time ago. Reliable sources, assume good faith. I note he has completely misread your attempts to help, and believed them to be attacks. This is not community-based thinking. I am going to wait and see how he reads this WQA entry, and his response here before further comment. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 11:13, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Hey,
I'm having problems with Colonel Warden at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ann Barker (Civil Servant). I am struggling to believe he is assuming good faith (excuse the irony!) and he is more interested in attacking me and the steps I followed than discussing the matter at hand. I am worried I will lose my cool and would appreciate intervention.
Looking at his talk page, I see other people have had problems too. Computerjoe's talk 15:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Just notified. Apologies if I don't sound very neutral. I am just somewhat annoyed. Computerjoe's talk 15:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- I have some opinions about this situation, but I would like to wait for his response to your posting to make any further comments. The Seeker 4 Talk 16:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- The AFD process, by its nature, is adversial. Nominations to delete the work of other editors undergo challenge so that this work is not removed improperly. Asking whether a nomination has followed the process laid out at WP:BEFORE is a proper question in this context and editors should not take this personally. Colonel Warden (talk) 16:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Pretty sure I posted this link to AfD etiquette not that long ago about a different WQA. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- My issue is that what I went through doesn't matter. The article's notability does. We should argue that, not steps taken. Computerjoe's talk 17:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Also, the editor made several implicit personal attacks (such as presuming I was ignorant). Computerjoe's talk 17:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Pretty sure I posted this link to AfD etiquette not that long ago about a different WQA. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Being disputatious at AfD is not a wikiquette issue and editors are free to cite things like WP:BEFORE (not relevant in this case, but...).
I don't really see a personal attack.The nomination is fine (I agree with it, in fact), but other editors are free to disagree and disengagement is probably the best course of action. Eusebeus (talk) 17:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)- Dispute is obviously fine but 'I question whether you have done the slightest work on this topic per WP:BEFORE or whether this is just a drive-by deletion grounded in ignorance?' does strike me as a little rude. I shall disengage, following your advice. Computerjoe's talk 17:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Yes you are right, it is rude and others may think it a valid WQA issue. My view is that with editors like Colonel Warden, who see themselves as committed to a righteous fight to save content and ramp up their OTT rhetoric accordingly, this kind of slur is best ignored. It doesn't convince; don't let it shouldn't provoke. Eusebeus (talk) 18:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Dispute is obviously fine but 'I question whether you have done the slightest work on this topic per WP:BEFORE or whether this is just a drive-by deletion grounded in ignorance?' does strike me as a little rude. I shall disengage, following your advice. Computerjoe's talk 17:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see anything wrong with him asking you that sort of question at all. Not rude at all. And you shouldn't nominate something that has already been nominated, without reading all the discussion from previous. Dream Focus (talk) 19:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
East-West Schism
Hiya!
I wonder if someone (or ones) can stop by East-West Schism and Talk:East-West Schism. We're having several issues over there:
- Editors who believe that NPOV is achieved by inserting POV content into the article to encourage other editors with differing POVs to balance it out.
- Editors who make 5-10 minor edits to the talk page of the article rather than using the Preview button.
- Editors who label any disagreement with them "Edit Warring," and other failures to WP:AGF.
- Editors who use the talk page of the article as a forum.
- Editors who act as if they own the article.
It'd be great to get a few new sets of eyes to look this one over. Thanks a lot! LOLthulu 22:54, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm, I didn't read this page carefully enough. The editor I have specifically in mind is User:LoveMonkey. LOLthulu 22:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
User:Juliancolton
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
I recently joined Wikipedia with the intent to publish an article about the band Behind Yellow Lines. (You can see my first impressions of Wikipedia here)
I was surprised to see that not long after I published the article, it was marked for "speedy deletion." I saw that on my talk page, it apparently wasn't notable enough. I attempted to delay the deletion, to see what was the matter, but the user who deleted it, Juliancolton failed to provide me with the real reason it was deleted. I checked the notability requirements for articles about bands, and my article was up to par. I started to become suspicious, wondering whether maybe the article was deleted out of [abuse].
To make a long story short, my previous positive impressions of Wikipedia were tarnished by the attitude of Juliancolton, and other moderators.
What infuriated me the most was that when I asked Julian to send me the article he hastily deleted, he refused. I had to go to another user (Hersfold) to get my article back (for my own personal use).
So, hopefully, this article will cause Wikipedia to review the character of their moderators, in an effort to treat new authors with respect and dignity.--Deucemeister (talk) 23:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- As Deucemeister has mentioned, I am involved with this, and I don't see that Julian has done anything out of line here. The deletion was appropriate, and I don't see that he's said anything that would be considered rude by most people. On the other hand, I am almost prepared to block Deucemeister for trolling. On several occasions he's directly attacked other users and has taken great offense at seemingly harmless comments - as this report shows. Hersfold (t/a/c) 23:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Juliancolton has a habit of remaining civil just about all the time. I'd say he has a better track record than I do. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:53, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- I did, in fact, provide you with a reason as to why I deleted the article. I apologize if you dislike Wikipedia's speedy-deletion policy, but that's not my fault. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- On Hersfold's talk page an editor replied to your "first impressions" explaining that writing an article about yourself is most likely to create a conflict of interest and articles must be neutral. All that Juliancolton did was follow guidelines, so you should have a problem with Wikipedia, not him. You also said Who better to tell the story of a band's history than one of its members? - Wikipedia is not a place to "tell your story", nor is it MySpace. It is an encyclopaedia. Note also the guideline of not biting the newcomer. Editors and administrators should know that newcomers won't know all the rules and guidelines, but it was quite clear that the associated rules were in fact pointed out to you by Hersfold yet you continue. Welshleprechaun (talk) 01:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- So your telling me that the "Formation and first years" section on Radiohead's page doesn't belong becuase it is "telling a story?" It seems to me that less known bands are discriminated against. Also, one question, if the same article had been written by say, a friend of mine, would it have been deleted? --Deucemeister (talk) 01:13, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- And Julian, I do believe it is your fault if you deleted it...--Deucemeister (talk) 01:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- Seems like this is just pouting over an article being deleted. --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:17, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- From an editor who can't tell the difference between his band and Radiohead. Dayewalker (talk) 01:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- That's fine, but am I really being abusive as you claim, or are you simply upset over your article being deleted? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- Seems like this is just pouting over an article being deleted. --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:17, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- And Julian, I do believe it is your fault if you deleted it...--Deucemeister (talk) 01:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- I believe I have the right to fight for my right to publish an article about my band. I also don't appreciate the harassment. I can clearly tell the difference and was simply using the Radiohead page as an example. It was the first band I could think of. Hmmm because EVERY band has a "story" section in their "encyclopaedia" article. But no...Behind Yellow Lines can't have one. Of course not. Let's delete it and harass the new editor. And while we're at, let's set a good example in etiquette for him (Rschen7754, Dayewalker). --Deucemeister (talk) 01:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- Did you read WP:BAND? --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- I believe I have the right to fight for my right to publish an article about my band. I also don't appreciate the harassment. I can clearly tell the difference and was simply using the Radiohead page as an example. It was the first band I could think of. Hmmm because EVERY band has a "story" section in their "encyclopaedia" article. But no...Behind Yellow Lines can't have one. Of course not. Let's delete it and harass the new editor. And while we're at, let's set a good example in etiquette for him (Rschen7754, Dayewalker). --Deucemeister (talk) 01:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
(OD)Deuce, you don't have a right to publish anything you want on wikipedia. Make a MySpace page or a website for your band and when you're notable enough, someone else will make a wikipedia entry for you. Dayewalker (talk) 01:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- Dayewalker, I won't even waste my time with you. And yes Rschen, I read WP:BAND. Behind Yellow Lines meets criteria 1 and 9. --Deucemeister (talk) 01:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- Please stop with the incivility. Thank you. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- This does not belong here. Take it to Wikipedia:Deletion review or if you're really riled, WP:ANI, but you aren't going to get anything from here. Meanwhile, you are close to being blocked. --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- Dayewalker, I won't even waste my time with you. And yes Rschen, I read WP:BAND. Behind Yellow Lines meets criteria 1 and 9. --Deucemeister (talk) 01:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
User:Jimmy Hammerfist and 18.138.1.34
These two accounts appear to be the same person (the last comment by the IP was signed "Jimmy Hammersmith"), both engaging in gratuitous personal insults on User talk:Jimmy Hammerfist. See these diffs. --Orlady (talk) 00:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)