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And succession boxes. Tested on [[Gennady Golovkin]]. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 13:18, 15 November 2013 (UTC) |
And succession boxes. Tested on [[Gennady Golovkin]]. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 13:18, 15 November 2013 (UTC) |
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== Bitching about testing == |
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I have been told by some that I shouldn't blame WMF (devs, systems, whatever) for the shortcomings of VE, but seriously, sometimes it can't be helped. If it tunrs out that my reason for this post is based on flawed information, then please let me know. Otherwise: |
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The switch between VE and wikitext editing has been active now for a few weeks, and was announced at e.g. [[mw:VisualEditor/status#2013-10-monthly]] as one of the major new features of the month in VE. |
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As far as I can tell, this has ''never'' worked in Firefox (see [[Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback#Messages should reference ability to switch to source editor]]. If correct, this means that a major new feature has not been tested on one of the two or three main browsers for VE. Coupled with the serious failure of early November with accents, which revealed that new VE releases were (until then) not tested on non-enwiki versions, makes it obvious that the criticisms which were raised multiple times and which led in part to the RfC fiasco here, have not changed anything at WMF (or whichever part of WMF is responsible for this) concerning this. |
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Why should we believe ''anything'' the WMF tells us wrt to testing, feedback, learned lessons, and so on if it looks as if in reality all we get is a big "fuck you, we don't do testing, you are still the guinea pigs" anyway? Why would we believe that the approach to e.g. Flow will be any better? [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 14:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:15, 15 November 2013
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Quick RfC, improving the current Template:VE Bug
Hi everybody! Some of you use Template:VE Bug in order to report bugs here. It's great that such a form exists, and I wish that other wikis had adopted it as well; I'd just like to suggest a few improvements for a very simple reason, we do know that a well written report helps developers a lot when they review, assess and assign bugs. Everybody knows that VE bugs can't really be triaged by anyone without knowing browser (and its version), skin, description and URL (or title at least) of the page where the error happened (I'd add that the OS seems needed as well). Many of us are familiar with this How to report a bug guide, and I would like to suggest that we slightly change the form so that some of those suggestions are included. For example, it would truly help if the Description field also prompted the user to include:
- Steps to Reproduce:
- Actual Results:
- Expected Results:
(Please take a look at bug 55856 for an example of how this process might be easily described).
Also, looks like templates like Tracked and Answered one very popular on this wiki, and thus the related fields of the current VE Bug form are unused.
Even if you don't actually use the form to report, please keep in mind that the elements in bold are the key, and I am planning to remind this at the top of this page soon :)
For those who are good at templates instead, please comment and suggest improvements of my mockup version for a new report form. Thank you all so much. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. I've left a slightly modified version at User:Elitre (WMF)/Sandbox2, with a note. - Pointillist (talk) 13:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot, user:Pointillist! I'll copy your comments here so that we can keep discussing about this:
- <<Main differences from Elitre (WMF)'s original:
- Thanks a lot, user:Pointillist! I'll copy your comments here so that we can keep discussing about this:
- Expected and Actual directly follow Description, so it is easy to see whether the bug is already known without reading the entire report.
- Expected, Actual and Steps broken out into separate cells, so each one has a permanent label in the left column.
- OS/browser etc have lower prominence.
- Notes fields added for optional test config stuff.>>
- So, the web browser is actually a key element. Many browsers are whitelisted, but not all of their versions are, and there might be new issues coming up immediately after a new browser version is released.
- The Workaround or suggested solution field is quite unused, so I'd leave that at the end.
- The Notes field is helpful, and we might suggest there to get a screenshot, for example. (Unfortunately, unlogged users can't currently use VE on en.wp. This does not help, in that we do read often here about something going wrong that isn't really VE's fault, and it takes a lot of time, effort and patience to check/change/disable all the enabled gadgets and preferences). --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 10:36, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
- The bugzilla form looks good. Only thing is Component section, I really don't understand the different components. Whats ContentEditable and TechnicalDebt about? I tend to just file under general and let someone else make it more specific.--User:Salix alba (talk): 18:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- I think I share your concern, doesn't really help much ;) The point is, it's perfectly ok to go with General. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- The bugzilla form looks good. Only thing is Component section, I really don't understand the different components. Whats ContentEditable and TechnicalDebt about? I tend to just file under general and let someone else make it more specific.--User:Salix alba (talk): 18:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- In the meantime, I present you... the brand new Bugzilla report form! --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- I changed User:Elitre_(WMF)/Sandbox2 again so that it mirrors the new form. If people get used to it, they'll be able to use Bugzilla autonomously in no time! Will "deploy" this tomorrow, if that's ok for you. Thanks a lot everybody, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- FYI your link to the brand new Bugzilla report form demands a Buzilla login (which recommends using an anonymous disposable email account etc). Any chance you could link to a bug report using the new bugzilla form? - Pointillist (talk) 22:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- A screenshot is on its way, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 22:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC) Now at File:Guided bug report form.png. Thanks a lot for pointing this out. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 23:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- That was quick! Looks good to me, but what do the regular bug reporters think? - Pointillist (talk) 23:12, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- Well, I was hoping to find out in this thread, but several of them seem pretty tired ;) Regulars! Chime in! --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 23:14, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- That was quick! Looks good to me, but what do the regular bug reporters think? - Pointillist (talk) 23:12, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- A screenshot is on its way, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 22:52, 30 October 2013 (UTC) Now at File:Guided bug report form.png. Thanks a lot for pointing this out. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 23:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- In the meantime, I present you... the brand new Bugzilla report form! --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Pointillist, User:Salix alba, User:Thryduulf Hey, since I don't usually publish templates... can someone make User:Elitre_(WMF)/Sandbox2 official? I am not sure we want to overwrite the original one. Also, would a link to mw:How_to_report_a_bug be enough as documentation, for the time being? Thanks, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:08, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- I'm really not the person you need to ask about templates! Sorry, Thryduulf (talk) 15:49, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- Now moved to {{VE Bug2}} which I guess makes it official. Testing
Bug report | VisualEditor |
---|---|
Mito.money | Please app{} |
Intention: | Somewhere to report bugs |
Steps to Reproduce: | Do this
|
Results: | a nicely formatted report |
Expectations: | VE devs will instantly fix the bug |
Page where the issue occurs | Template:VE_Bug2 |
Web browser | Chrome |
Operating system | Mac OSX |
Skin | Vector |
Notes: | This is not really a bug report |
Workaround or suggested solution | write it by hand |
- --User:Salix alba (talk): 16:39, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks!!! I created Template:VE_Bug2/bug_template, so that it can be linked on this page . Salix, can you check if this is ok as well? --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 16:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- It should be live now. Thanks everybody. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:19, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks!!! I created Template:VE_Bug2/bug_template, so that it can be linked on this page . Salix, can you check if this is ok as well? --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 16:56, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- --User:Salix alba (talk): 16:39, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Chess icon
I was trying to convert bad material into a comment in the article on Gerald Celente. When I came to the end of the comment and tried to close it (using html in lieu of any idea what else to use), I got what looks like a chess pawn when I previewed it: ♙. Kdammers (talk) 05:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- Hi. I'm sorry for the complication. Since you didn't save it (understandably), I'm not entirely sure what syntax you used. I was able to leave a hidden comment in my sandbox with ordinary hidden comment syntax, with no pawns ([1]). It looked okay in preview in a couple of articles. Can you specify what you used so I can make sure that this particular pawn bug is already tracked, or track it if not? If that is the syntax you used, can you tell me what browser and operating system you were on? :) --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 14:11, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I don't recall exactly what I typed, but it was some-thing like --!> . My opening appeared as wysiwyg, i.e., it did not get converted, undoubtedly because the close was the pawn. I was using Mozilla on Windows 7. Kdammers (talk) 13:09, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- I can't duplicate this issue. :/ Using Mozilla, I was able to get it to accept <!--test--> (without the additional !) without any issue, and when I tried <!--test--!> it just broke the page completely. (Interestingly, it did not show in preview that it would, although when you try to do the same edit in standard editor it does. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:38, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I don't recall exactly what I typed, but it was some-thing like --!> . My opening appeared as wysiwyg, i.e., it did not get converted, undoubtedly because the close was the pawn. I was using Mozilla on Windows 7. Kdammers (talk) 13:09, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Moving a navbox deletes it
When testing on Yersinia pseudotuberculosis, I moved the Template:Gram-negative proteobacterial bacterial diseases navbox from the bottom a bit higher. I dropped it after the "IPR015227" text a few lines higher. The result is that the navbox disappears from view, and in "review your changes" it is simply deleted. I haven't saved this result, doesn't seem to be a point in saving this... Further tests show that it doesn't really matter where I place the navbox, it always gets deleted. Testing on other articles indicate that this happens with all navboxes (test on Albert I of Belgium, which takes quite a while to open though...) Changing the order of the navboxes works, but as soon as you want to place it higher on the page, it disappears completely. Fram (talk) 09:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- I've duplicated this issue on your example page, Fram, but when I try it on Dunn Peak, the problem doesn't appear: [2]. Going to try it in a few different scenarios to try to figure out what the trigger is. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 15:58, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, haven't isolated the issue, but I'll post my results so far. If anyone spots something in common within the groups of test cases, let me know.
- Test scenario: Click once on a "navbox" type template at the bottom of a page. Click and drag the item and drop at the top of an External links section.
- Navbox disappears upon dropping: Page:Yersinia pseudotuberculosis Temp: Template:Gram-negative proteobacterial bacterial diseases, Page: Albert I of Belgium Temp: Template:Belgian princes, Page: Vancouver Canucks, Temp: Various, within Template:Navboxes
- Navbox drops where it should: Page: Dunn Peak Temp: Template:Columbia Mountains, Page: Waging Heavy Peace: A Hippie Dream, Temp: Template:Neil Young, Page: British Columbia, Temp: Various, within Template:Navboxes PEarley (WMF) (talk) 16:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Bumping, still haven't found a trigger for this. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 19:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- All of the problems contain a sister link template like {{Commons}}. Of the ones that are working, the only one containing a sister template is the last, and that has its navboxes wrapped in the {{navboxes}} template. The last also has a long list of external links, so that the ELs are taller than the sister link templates. So that's two things we could check. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 14:42, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- What I'm thinking here is that the sister templates are floated, and we can't move floated templates. But my subsequent testing isn't obviously confirming my theory (nor is it exactly disproving it, either). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:07, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well... I spent almost an hour testing various things, and I've learned something: the navboxes stop disappearing if you break all the refs. By "break", I mean change
<ref>
into the completely broken[ref>
. I have no idea why this makes navboxes quit disappearing, but perhaps I can claim to be confused at a more advanced level now. If anyone wants to play with it, you'll find the articles in User:Whatamidoing_(WMF)/sandbox2. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:37, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well... I spent almost an hour testing various things, and I've learned something: the navboxes stop disappearing if you break all the refs. By "break", I mean change
- What I'm thinking here is that the sister templates are floated, and we can't move floated templates. But my subsequent testing isn't obviously confirming my theory (nor is it exactly disproving it, either). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:07, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
- All of the problems contain a sister link template like {{Commons}}. Of the ones that are working, the only one containing a sister template is the last, and that has its navboxes wrapped in the {{navboxes}} template. The last also has a long list of external links, so that the ELs are taller than the sister link templates. So that's two things we could check. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 14:42, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Bumping, still haven't found a trigger for this. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 19:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Drag and drop redux
This was previously mentioned atWikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback/Archive_2013_12#Moving_links_on_the_page_from_outside_the_VE_surface_into_the_VE_surface. But I've now made a video with audio for demonstrating the issue, which should appear to the right. This in FF 24 Win 7 with Monobook. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 03:48, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- Well that's a fun one, Atethnekos. Thanks for the excellent vid. I've added it to Bugzilla. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 19:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
VE section edit links not working
The section edit links for VE are not working properly. When I mouse over the link, the "&veaction=edit§ion=1" is added to the end of the link, however, when I click on the link, it doesn't add that part, just adding "&veaction=edit". This means that the page doesn't scroll to the right place. (As a side note, I noticed this because when switching between VE and source edit the it leaves off the section part. I don't know if these are related or separate, or even if the latter is intentional.) (This shows up at least on Tonopah Air Force Base and User:Jay8g/sandbox.) (Windows 7, Firefox 24, monobook):Jay8g [V•T•E] 04:23, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- Jay8g, I'm having trouble duplicating this (same browser/skin, but Mac OS). I'm seeing the desired behaviour - page scrolls down so "Background" section is at top. The url is appended to "&veaction=edit" as you describe, but it still works. I'll have to try this on a Windows machine when I have access to one. Could you re-test, if you get a chance? Thanks, PEarley (WMF) (talk) 20:11, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- Seems to be working now:Jay8g [V•T•E] 01:53, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks! PEarley (WMF) (talk) 02:45, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Seems to be working now:Jay8g [V•T•E] 01:53, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
References
At the National English Ability Test, I am trying to clean up a minor point and correct an error, both in the references. One (footnote 5) has an extra set of parentheses and a changed font: (in (Korean)). The other (footnote 3) incorrectly indicates that the reference is in Korean. When I try to use VE to edit, I get the section pale-blued. When I click any-where in this, I get a stronger blue with a white rectangle in the upper right-hand corner with what is supposed to be a books icon. Nothing can be changed in the blue screen. when I click on the icon, I get https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_English_Ability_Test?veaction=edit, which is a blank white screen with the same icon followed by "Reference list," a cog icon followed by "Options," and "Use this group" above an entry box. There is also a big X in the upper right-hand corner and a "Apply changes in the bottom right-hand corner. The only operative part of this screen is (other than the X and, presumably, the "Apply changes" is the entry box. What in the world does this have to do with editing the text? what "groups" are being referred to? What am I supposed to type into the box -- some sort of group name?? In other words, using VE I have no idea at all how to make the two simple changes I mentioned at the start. (I recall having encountered the blue screen before, but I can't remember what the explanation was. In any case, if we are trying to make editing easier for people thinking in terms of WSIWYG word processing, this is not the way to do it.)Kdammers (talk) 07:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- The blue screen you have encountered indicates a template. It exists because the only actual content in the section is {{references}}. I think this is a difficult one on our projects for any brand new editor - if a newcomer click "edit source" on the reference section, I suspect they'd be equally confused. :) They won't see the text there, either - just {{references}}. VisualEditor, just like the source editor, requires editing the individual reference. The big difference, of course, is that if a person uses source editor and edits the page instead of the section they'll find the text they're looking for. To edit it in VisualEditor, they have to click on the individual reference and find the parameter that contains the issue. Clearly, that is an additional barrier to modifying references.
- There's talk at mw:VisualEditor/Design/Reference Dialog (and its talk page) about the reference system. I'll note this concern there. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:53, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- There's another report of some problems in this article at Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#I can't clean up a site. Template:Bug is being fixed so that the initial problem (typing ref tags in by hand) will be flagged with the usual warning against using wikicode. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 14:48, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Category adding not working
[3] People in Hindu mythology Redtigerxyz Talk 05:25, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
- Hi there, can you please confirm you followed the procedure described here? Thanks, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:09, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Works now. Don't know why it didn't work then? Followed the same procedure. --Redtigerxyz Talk 05:45, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply. The code's been updated since then, so maybe it was just something that got silently fixed. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:06, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
- Works now. Don't know why it didn't work then? Followed the same procedure. --Redtigerxyz Talk 05:45, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Italics
In the article on Michael Tellinger, much of the text is (erroneously) in italics. But when I went to fix it using VE, what is in italics is not what is in italics on direct viewing!Kdammers (talk) 07:08, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
- The problem was a stray <cite> tag. I fixed it. The regular PHP parser seems to leave that tag open all the way to the end of the article where Parsoid closed is at the end of the paragraph which is why you see different rendering. Ssastry (talk) 16:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Visual editor having issues with accent marks
Edited Egidio Arévalo's page. This happened - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Egidio_Ar%C3%A9valo&diff=580200791&oldid=577924442. I'm undoing and then making my changes using 'change source'. Not sure if this is a pre-existing bug or something new. Red Fiona (talk) 19:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- Further information. It's not just the Arévalo page. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andr%C3%A9s_Ayub&diff=580203236&oldid=572220148 Red Fiona (talk) 20:13, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- On frwiki, it seems that every edit with VE trashes the article really badly (example). Is the VE team going to say again that they are testing it before releasing it into production ? Honestly, letting go something like that into production is a shame, and clearly demonstrates that no real QA is done. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 20:17, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- By the way, do they expect us to clean up their mess again and again ??? --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 20:20, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- I can imagine it being a lot worse for French because accented letters are a lot more frequent. Red Fiona (talk) 20:30, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- HELP !!!!! PLEASE STOP VE ON FRWIKI, Articles are completely trashed by VE every minute. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 20:32, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- This has been fixed, it was a problem with the Parsoid parsing libraries update (not VE) which has been reverted. If you do not mind me rolling back edits in the mainspace on fr.wp, NicoV, I'll help clean up any broken edits. Keegan (WMF) (talk) 21:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- Sure, if you want to do reverts, you're welcome. Other wikis may ask the same. Honestly, I'm not interested in the distinction between VE and Parsoid, wherever the problem happened it shows that quality, tests and stability are less than enough for production software. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 23:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- The question however then becomes why people are intent on making a distinction between VE and the rest of the Wikipedia software stack to begin with of course. Just saying, this might as well have been a change in the Timeline rendering lib and hardly anyone would have come stomping WMF developers. Building out the test infrastructure is a continuous process and ppl have only begun doing this about 3 years ago. Never forget the amateurish and volunteer driven origins of the project as a whole, from article to server. They are the causes for all results we have achieved, both negative and positive. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:58, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- First of all, for users, VE and Parsoid seem closely related since Parsoid is the parser that is used by VE, and for me it seems that Parsoid was developed mainly because of VE, even if it can be used for something else. Then, disctinction between VE and the rest is made because WMF insist on deploying VE in production when a majority of users clearly think that VE is far from being stable enough for production. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 12:50, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Dear User:TheDJ, I don't think I was particularly stompy. There was a problem, that I narrowed down to definitely being a problem with VE rather than the traditional editor, and I put an entry in to VE Feedback as instructed.Red Fiona (talk) 14:50, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Dear User:Redfiona99, my commentary was not directed at you, you made a proper analysis and created a useful report. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 17:29, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- The question however then becomes why people are intent on making a distinction between VE and the rest of the Wikipedia software stack to begin with of course. Just saying, this might as well have been a change in the Timeline rendering lib and hardly anyone would have come stomping WMF developers. Building out the test infrastructure is a continuous process and ppl have only begun doing this about 3 years ago. Never forget the amateurish and volunteer driven origins of the project as a whole, from article to server. They are the causes for all results we have achieved, both negative and positive. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:58, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Sure, if you want to do reverts, you're welcome. Other wikis may ask the same. Honestly, I'm not interested in the distinction between VE and Parsoid, wherever the problem happened it shows that quality, tests and stability are less than enough for production software. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 23:06, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- This has been fixed, it was a problem with the Parsoid parsing libraries update (not VE) which has been reverted. If you do not mind me rolling back edits in the mainspace on fr.wp, NicoV, I'll help clean up any broken edits. Keegan (WMF) (talk) 21:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- HELP !!!!! PLEASE STOP VE ON FRWIKI, Articles are completely trashed by VE every minute. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 20:32, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- I can imagine it being a lot worse for French because accented letters are a lot more frequent. Red Fiona (talk) 20:30, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- Likely related in some way to Template:Bugzilla Risker (talk) 20:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- I am not sure about this, Risker; I'll ask. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:49, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- BTW, I did ask, and it was completely unrelated. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 15:42, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- I am not sure about this, Risker; I'll ask. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:49, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Is this a bug that only had this result in VE? Then, for all our purposes, this is a VE bug. Which part of VE is responsible for it, or whether technically it is a Parsoid bug that only affects VE, is for us 'readers, editors, VE testers) not relevant. If my car crashes into the wall each time, then I don't want to here "there's nothing wrong with the car, it's those new tyres we have been placing on all our cars". The end result is the same, the cause is the same (VE editing), and which part of the WMF development is actually to blame underneath is not really what we care about, comments like "it was a problem with the Parsoid parsing libraries update (not VE)" or TheDJs comment seem to miss this point or try to make some distinction to divert blame away from VE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fram (talk • contribs) 13:33, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- But Wikipedia is NOT a business like a car manufacturer, as much as that might be desirable, and you are not commercial consumers. It is a non-profit organization that is significantly smaller than all it's directly comparable commercial competitors (top 10 websites), founded to serve a lot of volunteers that together made something very useful.
- I would say, that a proper postmortem analysis took place, in a very transparent way, which will result in new type of test to prevent similar problems in the future. That, regardless of all the emotions, is all that is actually important. We all know or SHOULD know that our legacy code and infrastructure sucks and the only reason it was stable was due to LACK of change, because we all built together, from software to articles.
- The VE/Parsoid team has by now, built the majority of test coverage that we actually do have, a huge service to all of us. We have given them crap to work with and that crap will stink for a LONG time, there simply is no avoiding it. There is no point in blaming the VE team for much of what they are being blamed for, without at the same time blaming everyone (volunteer or not) who built everything that came before the age of VE. Things like this happen and it can be much worse and it needs to be prevented as much as possible, but that is exactly what people are working on right now. Just because you don't want to be interested in the details does not make your fingerpointing and 'root cause' analysis a positive contribution, let alone a valid analysis, it is nothing more than an incorrect emotional response. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 17:26, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- "The VE/Parsoid team has by now, built the majority of test coverage that we actually do have, a huge service to all of us." Can you explain what you mean? I have no idea what you are trying to say here, or what "test coverage" you are referring to. "We have given them crap to work with"? Which "we" is that? "an incorrect emotional response."? What exactly was incorrect about it? That the end result for readers and editors is that in this episode VE edits caused errors that wikitext editing didn't cause?
- I note that you are a volunteer developer at MediaWiki, so perhaps you feel personally attacked when people have a problem with VE, and when you read the emotional responses by editors like NicoV. Have you seen the amount of work and time NicoV has put into VE testing and corrections? Have you noticed the amounbt of time I have done for the same here on en-wiki? Is creating VE hard because it has to take into account all kinds of old tricks, workarounds, and so on? Probably. But that doesn't mean that "it is too hard to do it right, so we'll deploy it as is anyway" is the right answer. I'm trying to see if you have actually worked with visualeditor on en-wiki, but get a time-out, so I guess the answer is "no". The people who are complaining here are the ones that have actually tried it or are still trying it, and are the ones that have cleaned up after VE editing caused loads of problems which some basic testing should have found (and many of which were noted before it was deployed).
- Do you really think that your response, or the one shifting the blame from VE to Parsoid, will make anyone think twice and get a better impression of VE? Hardly anyone uses it here anymore, which is a good thing, because then such a bug only causes minor damage. On French Wikipedia though (and probably on many other ones like Spanish), it will have caused serious problems. Have you seen this? "Recommendations: Manually test VisualEditor on non-English wikis before and after deployment. Added to the deployment instructions." See also here. So please don't give me any crap about the "test coverage" that the VE/Parsoid team has built. The testing is still being done in live environments by unwilling and unknowing volunteers, and not (or at least very insufficiently) by the VE/Parsoid team. This has been noted time and again, and is now finally acknowledged by the changes at Mediawiki, but not by you apparently. Yes, responses are emotional, some people are thoroughly fed up by both the errors and by the responses of some people; but being emotional doesn't make them incorrect. Fram (talk) 08:15, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- Trying to avoid making this a mega discussion, but I will answer you
- test coverage
- parsoid parser tests, test subdirs of VE, and basically all the infrastructure that is hidden behind this page is to a large degree present due to the requirements of the VE and parsoid teams.
- We: is everyone who has participated in creating Wikipedia, front to end.
- Incorrect emotional response.. If you read it again, I'm talking specifically about the 'analysis'. The response overall being emotional is logical, but it is the problem analysis that is incorrect due to being oversimplified, something that is clouded by the emotional response but does result in finger pointing. These are the kinds of responses that leads companies to putting up telephone help desks. The sole purpose being to filter out appropriate information (write bug reports, count complaints) and filtering out noise for the rest of the organization.
- Yes I'm a volunteer developer. And I have been and am a developer in many projects in and outside of Wikimedia (although less for Wikimedia lately). This kind of feedback is far from uncommon in the software world. It would be nice if Wikimedia/MediaWiki could be perfect or even close to not problematic, but I can tell you now that it is simply not gonna happen. The world of software and websites changes too quickly, personnel is too expensive/rare, and we are way too far behind. The only way to do this is gradually and take lessons from everything that we do. To invest in quality while building the changes instead of before we start making changes.
- I have a lot of respect for anyone who puts time into making Wikipedia. But I don't like it if people pretend that one task is more important than the other, or that Wikipedia should NOT be laborious. It has always been laborious for all of us, including our volunteers. If volunteers don't want to do a certain task, then they shouldn't and in general someone else will pick it up. If you don't want to do vandal fighting, don't do it. If you don't want to help improve the next generation of Wikipedia, just write articles and let someone else report problems and correct articles after a problem. When you do want to, be as productive at it as you can be.
- "Do you really think that your response, or the one shifting the blame from VE to Parsoid, will make anyone think twice and get a better impression of VE?", no I'm just hoping that people would stop the blame game and start collaborating in building a better Wikipedia.
- There are 5 recommendations: Prevention of this specific bug in the long term, prevention of this specific bug in the immediate term, ability to mitigate the effect of a single Parsoid bug, theoretical possibility of Parsoid problem detection inside VE, and an ops recommendation that even I don't understand. To ridicule one of them is a failure or unwillingness to understand the process. At the very least it again does not result in improving the process.
- Yes, real life editors are being used for testing, they are the best representation of how real life editors respond and interact.
- I am personally very grateful to all the work that you and NicoV have been doing and I get that it can be incredibly frustrating, but the software stack and its stability is much more complicated than finding a problem and then pointing at "VE" or "Parsoid". Again much of all of this is a direct effect of how Wikipedia came into existence to begin with. Complain about the problems often and insistent, but try to do a little bit less fingerpointing, it is a negative contribution that will have negative effects, unlike complaining about problems which will have positive effects.
- I hope that answers your questions. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- Trying to avoid making this a mega discussion, but I will answer you
- Emotional ? Yes, I was emotional when I reported it: several articles were trashed every minute on frwiki alone and that's been 4 months that we are dealing with fixing all the damages done by VE on production wikis. Many problems were even reported before this go live insanity, and some of them are still not fixed. Was there anything false in my posts ??? "Test coverage" ? Well, it seems to me that you're referring to automated testing, which is a good thing, but anyone with experience will tell you that it's not enough and manual testings by a human are always necessary, especially when dealing with UIs and free inputs from users. It's not the first time I complained about this lack of manual testing, and the fact that the non-English wikis were not tested at all (for example, the bug with the space characters that were multiplied before ":", one that should have been seen before going in production if any manual test was done on non-English wiki). So after 4 months, the postmortem discovers that manual tests should be done ??? Well, we've been saying that for quite a long time. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 09:06, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- There were already test cases protecting against such errors. It's just that that part of the tooling was not used in the test case, hiding bugs in tooling setup. This is one of the common pitfalls of test cases, you end up having to test everything around you as well. There were also manual tests, but you can't run all manual tests all the time, there isn't enough man to take care of it. Instead the developers are looking at and starting to use frontend testing with Selenium, but that again can only test what it was setup to test and thus often, only that which has gone wrong once before. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply.
- 1 + 2; I don't see what "test coverage" has been built that is a "huge service to all of us" and that is relevant to the case at hand. If they do a lot of tests, but not the right ones, then it isn't really a huge service but a huge waste of time, both at the back-end and at the front-end.
- 3; parsing your statement, you claim "everyone who has participated in creating Wikipedia, front to end, [has] given them crap to work with and that crap will stink for a LONG time, there simply is no avoiding it." That, if I may say so, is a typical developers' statement. Our product is good, it's the consumer that sucks. :::::4; oversimplified is not the same as incorrect. That companies don't want to listen to angry customers is their loss. The right way to turn angry customers into happy customers is listening to them, taking them serious, not complaining that actually, technically, it's not component X but component Y that is to blame, even though the customer has only used component X, and it is component X that in the background uses component Y; and that actually, you shouldn't blame the people responsible for the change that caused the problem, because next time they will do better. "Filtering out the noise" has caused much of the current problems; WMF apparently didn't realise the disconnect they had with the community here, or the length people would go to implement the RfC. Making sure that emotional responses are ignored is the best way to create another such fiasco.
- 5; "The only way to do this is gradually and take lessons from everything that we do." That's the problem with the people who have followed the results of VE; no evidence that any lessons have been learned is visible, if not even the most basic testing on non-en-wikis is being done (even though they have a lot more VE edits than we do obviously).
- 6; Oh please. "If you don't want to help improve the next generation of Wikipedia, just write articles and let someone else report problems and correct articles after a problem." If you don't want to help improve the current "generation" of Wikipedia, then go somewhere else.
- 7; " I'm just hoping that people would stop the blame game and start collaborating in building a better Wikipedia." All the people complaining about this bug (and the many other ones) do so because they want a better Wikipedia. Some of us feel though that VE, or some aspects of it, or some implementations of it, are not helping in building a better Wikipedia at all, but are simply huge timesinks that could have been avoided by e.g. better testing before implementation, as acknowledged at MediaWiki. You can hope whatever you want, but people are not going to stop putting their fingers on sore spots, and if those sore spots are e.g. lack of testing by the WMF and the developers, then tough luck. But your false dilemma that people can't both look for deeper causes for recurring problem, and work on building a better Wikipedia at the same time, no, even worse, your suggestion that those are exact opposites, won't fly.
- 8; You're being cryptic here. Which "one of five recommendations" has been ridiculed?
- 9; "by unwilling and unknowing volunteers", in a live environment, not in a test environment. Have you any indication how many (if any) "real", personal (i.e. non-automated) tests were done before e.g. this Parsoid update that caused these VE problems?
- 10; Thanks, but no. It's not as if I contain a "bad WMF" statement in every error I post here. But sometimes, like here, it is just too serious to let pass without additional comments. A problem that causes nearly every edit on French (and presumably Spanish, Finnish, ...) Wikipedia to be a serious degradation of the article quality should have been detected earlier. It's not a Firefox 25 only thing, or an admin-only thing, or an unusual set of circumstances like the navbox problems; it's something that was very easy to detect (I'm not saying easy to diagnose or correct, that is not what we are discussing here) with some basic testing, something which had been requested for months, and was promised over and over again. If similar things happen again, I (and others) will put the blame where we believe it is due. This may have negative effects, but I doubt that they outweigh the negative effect of errors like this one. Fram (talk) 13:24, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- OK, my attempt has clearly failed. On to other things, thank you for discussing —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:41, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- "There were also manual tests": if it's true, they failed to detect a bug happening on almost every edit on most of the non-English wikis (probably almost all since most languages other than English use accent marks, or non US-ASCII characters) and that completely trashes articles. That's what I'm currently pointing at, something that was already reported several times as missing over the past months: manual tests on non-English wikis before production. Doing basic manual tests is mandatory for me, because as I said before automated tests often miss obvious bugs because they only check what they have been programmed to check. And doing basic manual tests, like monkey tests, doesn't often require a lot of man power: having 1 person doing 1 day testing before each release on a test wiki would probably prevent such wide damaging bugs (I'm not talking about bugs requiring specific conditions). --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 14:39, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- OK, my attempt has clearly failed. On to other things, thank you for discussing —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:41, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- There were already test cases protecting against such errors. It's just that that part of the tooling was not used in the test case, hiding bugs in tooling setup. This is one of the common pitfalls of test cases, you end up having to test everything around you as well. There were also manual tests, but you can't run all manual tests all the time, there isn't enough man to take care of it. Instead the developers are looking at and starting to use frontend testing with Selenium, but that again can only test what it was setup to test and thus often, only that which has gone wrong once before. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
For anyone interested in the technical details, the Parsoid team switched to a new form parsing library, and the new one defaulted to ISO-8859-1 rather than UTF-8. It appears that the problem was fixed on all wikis approximately 65 minutes after the update. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:33, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
VE mangles every non-ascii character
See this diff - it garbles Japanese characters, accented characters, even mdashes. Basically, anything that's not ASCII. Presumably this is the same bug as the section above, I just want to bring it to your attention that it's not just the FR wiki, it's everywhere- as of now, VE is worse than useless on pretty much every page in every language. --PresN 20:43, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for the notice, PresN, that was a very ugly moment. See above about the fix. Keegan (WMF) (talk) 21:25, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Space between ":" and characters count increase
Hi, I noticed that several edits by VE on frwiki are modifying the regular space character before ":", replacing with an other whitespace character, but probably an odd one since the count of characters is increasing by 1 for each character replaced. Examples: [4], [5], ... This is again a problem making dirty diffs and leaving strange characters (but invisible) in articles. Could something be done about this so that normal space characters are not replaced by something else ? --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 12:07, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Hi, isn't that 48570? It's been patch-to-review for a while now, so let's ping User:Ssastry about it. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:15, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- No, it seems a different one: 48570 is about adding space characters (every time, a space character is added before ":"), the one I'm reporting is about space characters being replaced by an other whitespace characters (only one character, but counted as 2 by diff because it's not an ASCII character). --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 12:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, subbu will tell us. Here I think I had noted what you refer to, that was later marked as a duplicate of 48570. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:32, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Elitre, I have the impression that is different because the result is quite different: 48570 and 51024 resulted in many regular space characters before a ":", while the problem I'm reporting results in one special whitespace character before a ":". We'll see ;-) --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 12:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- It's a win for everybody that I'm not a dev :D --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:47, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, it is not Template:Bug. I closed it (should have done it long back :)). This is a different error. I have a suspicion what that might be. We'll investigate and fix it. Thanks for the report. Ssastry (talk) 16:18, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- It's a win for everybody that I'm not a dev :D --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:47, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Elitre, I have the impression that is different because the result is quite different: 48570 and 51024 resulted in many regular space characters before a ":", while the problem I'm reporting results in one special whitespace character before a ":". We'll see ;-) --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 12:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, subbu will tell us. Here I think I had noted what you refer to, that was later marked as a duplicate of 48570. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:32, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- No, it seems a different one: 48570 is about adding space characters (every time, a space character is added before ":"), the one I'm reporting is about space characters being replaced by an other whitespace characters (only one character, but counted as 2 by diff because it's not an ASCII character). --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 12:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
Error introduced in VE, but can only be solved in wikitext editing apparently
An editor made a lot of edits to Robert Lecker using VE, but gradually created a problem which strangely can only be corrected by wikitext editing aparrently... The problems seem to start here (scroll down and search for "The Annotated Bibliography of Canada's Major Authors"), and become worse here and here. Attempts to solve it only move the problem, here and here. Removing it in wikitext mode is no problem though[6].
Going back to that final VE edit, and opening it in VE[7]: put your cursor behind the strange quote marks (in the Anthologies section), and start backspacing. Hurrah, they're gone! You get a wiki-markup warning, but that doessn't stop us. Now, on "save page", choose "review your changes": the marks you just removed with backspace are back there!
So, three VE questions / problems: why were these created in the first place, why can't we remove them, and why does the end result differ from the VE mode (i.e. they can be removed in VE mode, but reappear on saving anyway). Fram (talk) 09:30, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- When I tried to remove it, VE told me I was attempting to use MediaWiki markup. I forced through the save anyway, and it completely ignored that edit, as you observed. The one thing it had going for it - it did give me a link to the standard editor when it refused to let me use MediaWiki markup.
- I don't know how he did it. :/ Anybody else have any ideas? --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 16:41, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Tough linking
It's hard to prove that this is a VE bug and not simply an editor error, but I've seen enough similar cases to fear the former: this edit creates [[Homeschooling in the United States|homeschooling]][[̩|.]]. I don't think the editor intended to link the period separately... Fram (talk) 09:42, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- Especially with a link to nothing... --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 09:47, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, it links (through a redirect) to Combining character, if you aim your pointer very carefully... Fram (talk) 09:50, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- My mistake, what you wrote almost looks like "[[|.]]" on FF 17 (except for a tiny pixel on the first "[": "[[̩|.]]"). --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 10:05, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- No problem, I have no idea what the almost-pipe symbol actually is, it probably caused the problem in the first place? Fram (talk) 10:23, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- My mistake, what you wrote almost looks like "[[|.]]" on FF 17 (except for a tiny pixel on the first "[": "[[̩|.]]"). --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 10:05, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, it links (through a redirect) to Combining character, if you aim your pointer very carefully... Fram (talk) 09:50, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Here as well, ''Arundo donax''(giant reed) gets changed into ''[[Arundo donax]]''[[Arundo donax|(]]<nowiki/>giant reed). Fram (talk) 12:24, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- This is a known problem. Apparently fixing it, while still allowing people to link only parts of the word when they want to, is very difficult. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:45, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
File placement problem, and lack of hidden comments
This edit again indicates the problem for users to place files correctly (i.e. not breaking sentences), and also indicates that the possibility to add hidden comments should be given (or, if it exists, made more noticeable to editors). Fram (talk) 09:44, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- These appear to be known concerns. For the image location issue, it's complicated: if you can't put an image in the middle of a sentence, then you can't add inline images (like this: ). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:44, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Difference between view mode and VE editing mode
Minor, but any feedback is welcome, no? ;-) In Wisconsin v. Yoder, with my screen resolution (it will be different for others), the text "The parents' fundamental right to freedom of religion[...]" forms the second line of the lead in regular view and in VE mode (fine so far). Due to the double space between "8th grade." and "The parents' fundamental" though, in VE the line starts with an empty space, instead of left aligned as it should be. Is this intentional? It is not WYSIWYG, since such double spaces are not shown with double width in view mode. Fram (talk) 09:55, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- I believe that it's intentional. VisualEditor is not actually meant to be WYSIWYG. It is meant to use WYSIWYG techniques where those techniques are useful, and to not use them where they would prevent editors from seeing and being able to make certain kinds of changes (e.g., removing stray double spaces). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:47, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Strange result
Here, something went wrong. Note the editor succeeded in introducing wiki-markup into the VE text :-) Probably not a very common bug (or occurrence, "bug" may be the wrong word here), but indicative that the wiki-linking feature perhaps isn't as intuitive as hoped. Fram (talk) 14:52, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- I just found out that if you want to add a word between brackets in VE, it will actually suppress the opening ones, but it will leave the closing ones. Note that you can still re-add the opening ones, and that my edit did not trigger the wikimarkup warning. Not sure if this is known, will investigate more tomorrow. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:21, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- Bumping this, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Simple mobile test
I tried to add {{who}} after "by one of their graduates." on Cornerstone Community#Training using Google Chrome on my Samsung Galaxy Note locked to vertical viewing. Positioning the cursor works well.
- The toobar isnt visible like it is in the desktop version. I have to move the page so that the toolbar is visible, and the cursor is no longer visible, ...
- When I click 'More' in the toolbar, the drop down list is exposed, however the page then scrolls down to the cursor position. I need to scroll back up to the top of the page to click 'Transclusion'
- When I click 'Transclusion', the transclusion dialog appears, with the left hand side consuming about 80% of the width, resulting in the template name textbox being barely visible.
- But I can put the cursor in the template name dialog, which causes the phone to zoom in on that textbox, and I type in 'Who'. The list of possible templates appears, mostly off the screen to the right, but it includes {{who}}} and I can 'press' that entry. Nothing happens. The 'Add template' button isnt visible of course. I then press Go on the Samsung keyboard and it does add the Who template to the left hand side.
- The 'Apply changes' button isnt visible.
I am stuck in a dialog that doesnt work, with the dialog including lots of whitespace but not the button I need. I then realise I can pinch the screen for the rest of the dialog to become visible. Success! John Vandenberg (chat) 11:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
citation needed
Here, at "humor effect", you get a citation needed with a reason. In VE mode, you get a "span title =" which shouldn't be there... Fram (talk) 14:05, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- I tested this, and I guess it depends on the inverted commas. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:54, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Transluction-edit puzzle button issue
Status | New: |
---|---|
Description | The transluction-edit puzzle button don't appear on {{multiple image}} with vertical direction. (see Headquarters box) |
To duplicate: | |
Operating system | Linux Mint |
Web browser | Firefox |
Site | Internet Archive |
Workaround | |
Skin | Vector |
Resolution | 1280x1024px |
Bugzilla |
Rezonansowy (talk • contribs) 15:06, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- Could you look for the icon to the upper right of the infobox? This sounds like Template:Bug, an old problem, where the icon is shown near the position of the template in the source text, not near the position of the "real" object in the editor window (the infobox "pushes" the template box downwards). The problem is over 3 months old, but hasn't been fixed yet unfortunately. GermanJoe (talk) 15:17, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I meant. --Rezonansowy (talk • contribs) 16:28, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Main missing or poorly working aspects (mainspace)
So, what do you consider the main remaining missing or poorly working aspects of VE? I'll list a few I think of right now, feel free to add your own (I'm bound to froget some very common ones). It may give an indication of where the most urgent problems are situated and which things shouldn't be forgotten... Fram (talk) 15:34, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- Galleries can't be used
- Tables can hardly be used
- Copy-paste removes all markup
- Redirects
- File handling (location, replacing, sizing, ...)
- Scrolling (with arrows, or after copy-paste of text)
- Wiki-markup isn't supported
- ...but Wiki-markup is necessary in templates
- Citation templates
- Performance, obviously
- Different look in VE than in view mode (whitespace between templates and so on, compare e.g. Internet Archive standard and in VE mode)
- Reference numbering in VE mode restarts in text when there are refs in the infobox
- PLus many more minor bugs (minor in the sense of less often occuring, not necessarily of having less serious consequences, e.g. the problems on moving navboxes)
- Some more:
- Hidden comments <!-- ... --> aren't shown
- Special characters (no way to insert them, no way to know if existing spaces are ordinary spaces or non-breaking spaces)
- Redlinks are not red
- Transclusion editing interface: It is horribly inefficient for editing, showing only one parameter value at a time, and requiring scrolling/looking through the list, and then clicking on each parameter you want to edit. A design that is more like the interface reftoolbar uses for the cite templates - ie, being able to see and edit many parameters AND their values all at once - would be a huge improvement. Also, if many templates are used consecutively, such as {{jctint}} and related templates (which build a table row-by-row), it is impossible to edit just one of these templates - the transclusion editing interfaces groups everything together on the left-hand scroll list, making it difficult to find the spot you want to edit - especially if the same template with the same parameters is used repeatedly (maybe 20+ times) in the group of templates.
- - Evad37 (talk) 16:56, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. Yes, those are annoying as well. Fram (talk) 09:41, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- @Fram and Evad37: We're in agreement on most of these issues and "just" need to work through them (each of them tends to be far more complex in practice than it looks at first glance). Regarding differences between view/edit mode, some of them can't be helped if you want to preserve e.g. line-breaks in the wikitext during roundtripping (which is debatable in the long run). Some are due to the "slug" user experience; see bugzilla:47790. Some are Parsoid output issues that will be gradually improved. Regarding wiki markup in templates, the goal is to render mini-VE invocations for filling in template parameters except in cases where it's absolutely not possible to do so. And as you know we're not going to support raw wiki markup in VE itself.
- Citations and transclusion user experience is one of the highest priority issues and you'll see some significant improvements there soon. Our main concern is to not get too drawn into the specifics of one wiki or set of templates, but come up with good solutions that leverage e.g. community-editable template metadata and enable editors to create a pleasurable and efficient experience working with various templates.--Eloquence* 02:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
- "And as you know we're not going to support raw wiki markup in VE itself." Yes, I know. I still haven't seen a single convincing reason for this, so I will continue to list this as a serious shortcoming of VE, even when every edit can be done in VE, but a lot more so as long as editors still need wikitext editing anyway, in VE and for things not supported by VE at all, and as long as VE shows wikitext in things like "review your changes". You shouldn't expect people (new editors) to learn wikitext editing, and then tell them that they can't use even the most basic wikitext markup in VE, not because VE can't handle it (it can handle it perfectly allright), but because the devs (or their bosses) explicitly but inexplicably don't want it. 10:11, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, it does seem odd that VE is smart enough to detect wiki markup being entered, but not smart enough to turn it into properly formatted text. It would be magic if it could turn [[link]] into link, '''bold''' / ''italic'' into bold / italic, and {{cn}} into [citation needed] as I type. - Evad37 [talk] 12:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- It's not that it ain't smart enough. It hasn't been instructed to do so, and never will, as Erik also repeated above. Regards, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:51, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, it does seem odd that VE is smart enough to detect wiki markup being entered, but not smart enough to turn it into properly formatted text. It would be magic if it could turn [[link]] into link, '''bold''' / ''italic'' into bold / italic, and {{cn}} into [citation needed] as I type. - Evad37 [talk] 12:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Some templates can't be moved.
But I have no idea which ones can and which ones can't. At Petabyte, the one at the start can't. Why? The navbox at the end has the typical navbox problem, and simply disappears. The reflist can be moved, but that's hardly necessary of course... Fram (talk) 15:40, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
- I believe that the common theme is that you can't move templates that are floated. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:27, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
How do I insert a picture?
I want to copy an image from one site (characters in the t.v. show "Bones") to another site, (List of fictional anthropologists). I got the picture to copy (using the source file) onto the media page (though there was no explanation of what to do), but then I was stumped. There was no "paste," "apply," "do" or any other similar button (to say nothing of there being no explanation there or at the guide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VisualEditor/User_guide) page. All I saw was a big X. Suffice it to say that I didn't succeed in getting the picture onto the page. Kdammers (talk) 01:39, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- As far as I know, you can't. Someday in the distant future probably... Fram (talk) 09:35, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Then why is there a media button? In any case, if it is non-operative, there should be a notice to that effect. Kdammers (talk) 12:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- The feature, AFAIK, is working as intended. It lets you choose pics from local wikis or Commons, you just need to give it a keyword. The guide does explain how it works. Thanks, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:28, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Then why is there a media button? In any case, if it is non-operative, there should be a notice to that effect. Kdammers (talk) 12:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Kdammers, you asked "How do I insert a picture?" and later "why is there a media button?" The answer to those is: you can insert a picture using the media button, it works (more or less, e.g. don't try to insert it at the left side...). But what you actually wanted to do, was copy an image from one article to another using VE. This is not possible (although it would of course be very useful). What you have to do is determine the file name (which is impossible in VE! You have to do it in wikitext), and then type that name into the destination article into the box you get when you chose "media". Obviously, if you are savvy enough to open wikitext to find the filename, you'll probably simply copy-paste the full "file" text and open the other article in wikitext as well...
Elitre, I presume you misunderstood the intended question (understandably, it wasn't very clear), but I hope that you don't mean that the lack of copy-paste (and many other features) in the "media" feature is "working as intended", but that the feature works for the few things it does, but is severely lacking in many others. If it truly was the intention that the "media" option only would offer what it does now, then I don't think VE will ever be considered non-beta. Fram (talk) 12:38, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Fram, we are all aware that copy/paste for VE has not reached that point yet. My point was merely that, right now, the Media option does what is explained in the Guide :). As a wikipedian, I'd be quite concerned about copy/pasting of images which are not already uploaded on our servers with full information about author, license and so on (particularly for those wikis like it.wp for which Fair Use is not an option). --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:46, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- I'm discussing copy paste from one enwiki article to another, obviously. I'm totally in agreement that copy-pasting images from outside Wikipedia is a rather bad idea generally. Fram (talk) 13:30, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Fram, yes I can insert pictures using wikitext, but my concern is with improving VE. I just noticed that for some sites (e.g., Asian pear, when I go to media in VE, I get a gallery of possible images that are insertable with one click on a chosen image. So, for some sites 'media' works for me with-out my having "think" at all, i.e., I found it intuitive. But for other sites, where there is no gallery (where does the gallery come from?), it sounds to me like You are saying is that I should enter the file name into the rectangle to the right of the magnifying glass. Okeh, but then what? Entering the file name alone does not activate any-thing. Hitting enter does not activate any-thing. The X will only kill it. Kdammers (talk) 08:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
I never thought to click on the "Insert Media or the icon next to it, since that seemed like nothing more than the title. But checking back I tried it, but clicking on them didn't do any-thing any-way. Kdammers (talk) 08:05, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
- @Kdammers: Regarding your question of where the gallery comes from, the user guide says "Clicking the 'Media' icon opens a dialog that automatically searches this Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons for media files, using the name of the page you are editing." So in the case of "Asian pear", the search functionality is finding a lot of matches. On the other hand, if you go to (for example, a random article I just went to) Marsh Lake (Nova Scotia), the search doesn't find anything.
- Regarding "Entering the file name alone does not activate any-thing," that's not my experience. If you paste the file name in (but not "File:", which isn't part of the file name), you should see definitely see the image you want (from Wikimedia Commons).
- If that still doesn't work for you, please let us know the file name of the image/picture, and the article you were trying to add the image to. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 02:09, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
- There are some problems (predating VisualEditor) with Commons' search indexing that especially affect images that were uploaded recently. Most of them process through in a day or two, but searching for an image that you just uploaded a few minutes ago can sometimes be an exercise in frustration (regardless of whether you're searching for it inside VisualEditor or at Commons in the regular search box). There are bugs open on the problem: Commons' search indexing needs to be improved, and VisualEditor needs (IMO) to be able to add images based on exact file names. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:15, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
- You might also want to see 37932 and 38031. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:35, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- There are some problems (predating VisualEditor) with Commons' search indexing that especially affect images that were uploaded recently. Most of them process through in a day or two, but searching for an image that you just uploaded a few minutes ago can sometimes be an exercise in frustration (regardless of whether you're searching for it inside VisualEditor or at Commons in the regular search box). There are bugs open on the problem: Commons' search indexing needs to be improved, and VisualEditor needs (IMO) to be able to add images based on exact file names. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:15, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
- If that still doesn't work for you, please let us know the file name of the image/picture, and the article you were trying to add the image to. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 02:09, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, now it DID work when I entered (a different - I can't remember what the other file name was) file name. But now I have another problem. How do I put a label underneath the picture? Simple typing does not work. Should I have labeled (if so, how?) before it got inserted? Is there some special place for adding text associated with illustrations? Kdammers (talk) 02:28, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- Hi, you're trying to add a caption, if I understand correctly? This section of the user guide has a section about it, please report if the described procedure doesn't work for you. Thanks, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
(After) feedback
I just worked on a page and had a problem (reported above). So, I used the feedback option. I have two issues with that option. First, it is not clear that the feedback will be posted with-out (at least as far as I can see) any indication of what site the editor is on when s/he fills out the form. I had assumed that that information would be included automatically ( like in some discussion articles on requests for deletion etc.). Since /If it isn't, the editor fling the feedback should be given a heads up, since viewing the specific site is often needed for others to understand the problem, and the editor might not come back for a while or might have edited a lot of sites and not remember which one had the problem. Second, after completing the feedback and sending it, I was still on the VE page, but I cannot save the page (the button is light green and inactive). It seems the only way to exit is to cancel, losing any changes I might have made (actually, after writing the feedback, I don't remember if any of my changes were made in that session, so it's possible, there are no changes to be lost, but still....)Kdammers (talk) 02:13, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- It works for me. Can you test it again, making sure that you have changed the page before leaving feedback? Fram (talk) 09:29, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, yes. It seems to be because there were no changes made. But, as I noted, some-one might not remember if s/he's made changes. (I can't tell if it works otherwise, at the moment, since VE is claiming I used wikieditor, when I have not, only clicking on the link icon and typing plain text.)Kdammers (talk) 12:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- So, I just tested. I could leave my feedback, and I could save my edit later. What I think might be slightly confusing there, is that the bug report goes to Bugzilla, and this is not mentioned. We might work on this, I'll let you know. As for the feedback here instead, the page where the comment is posted is clearly mentioned twice, and can be opened elsewhere by right-clicking. I am not sure if or how this should be furtherly improved. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:42, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- The report is going to bugzilla???? What the heck? Bugzilla isn't even an SUL project, it displays non-public information... Geez, guys. It should transclude onto this page. Risker (talk) 03:04, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
- As I said, I'll discuss this with the rest of the team. Stay tuned for updates. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- The report is going to bugzilla???? What the heck? Bugzilla isn't even an SUL project, it displays non-public information... Geez, guys. It should transclude onto this page. Risker (talk) 03:04, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
- So, I just tested. I could leave my feedback, and I could save my edit later. What I think might be slightly confusing there, is that the bug report goes to Bugzilla, and this is not mentioned. We might work on this, I'll let you know. As for the feedback here instead, the page where the comment is posted is clearly mentioned twice, and can be opened elsewhere by right-clicking. I am not sure if or how this should be furtherly improved. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:42, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, yes. It seems to be because there were no changes made. But, as I noted, some-one might not remember if s/he's made changes. (I can't tell if it works otherwise, at the moment, since VE is claiming I used wikieditor, when I have not, only clicking on the link icon and typing plain text.)Kdammers (talk) 12:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Category box shows after switching from source to VE
After switching from source editor to VE, the category box shows up at the top of the page, between the toolbar and the editable area (Monobook, FireFox 25, Windows 7):Jay8g [V•T•E] 03:08, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- This is also happening for me (Vector, Chrome 30, Win7), but only on pages with no categories, or only hidden categories. To test it in articles, go to Special:NewPagesFeed and look for articles with no categories. - Evad37 (talk) 03:34, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
New categories not rendered
When I add a category, it does not appear on the page after saving. John Vandenberg (chat) 04:46, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Same here. It isn't shown directly after saving, even though it is present. Refreshing makes it visible. Another issue I noted: can categories please always get a new line? This looks terrible. Fram (talk) 09:33, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Did adding categories work properly in the past? I guessing it is a regression, as I doubt that VE was rolled out to Category pages when adding of parent categories does not work properly, and nobody has noticed until now. John Vandenberg (chat) 17:30, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Adding a category actually works; the bug you are looking for is 48560, though. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 15:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks Elitre (WMF) for finding the relevant bug for me; I don't think it is appropriate to say it 'works' if the category doesn't appear after save, and it also emits silly layout (is there a bug for that?), which causes bugzilla:56880 to become very prominent. John Vandenberg (chat) 00:36, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- This "silly layout of new categories" issue might be Parsoid not doing the right thing. Will take a look tomorrow. Ssastry (talk) 02:49, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Now fixed @ https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/95432/ ... will be deployed Monday. Ssastry (talk) 16:48, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Ssastry, thanks, it's always a pleasure to have you around here. Please tell Parsoid on our behalf that it needs to behave, will you? :) --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:38, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- Now fixed @ https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/95432/ ... will be deployed Monday. Ssastry (talk) 16:48, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- This "silly layout of new categories" issue might be Parsoid not doing the right thing. Will take a look tomorrow. Ssastry (talk) 02:49, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks Elitre (WMF) for finding the relevant bug for me; I don't think it is appropriate to say it 'works' if the category doesn't appear after save, and it also emits silly layout (is there a bug for that?), which causes bugzilla:56880 to become very prominent. John Vandenberg (chat) 00:36, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Messages should reference ability to switch to source editor
Both the notice on first opening VE ("You can keep using the wikitext editor by clicking the "Edit source" tab instead – unsaved changes will be lost.") and the wikitext warning ("Click "Edit source" to edit the page in wikitext mode – unsaved changes will be lost.") need to be changed to reference the newly added ability to switch to the source editor without losing unsaved changes:Jay8g [V•T•E] 05:09, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- As soon as that one works properly at least. Tested in on User:Fram/sandbox, but doesn't work. Tested it on File:!!! - !!! album cover.jpg, doesn't work either. Tested it on Category:Texas A&M University, doesn't work either. Tested it with or without making changes to the page before attempting the switch, no difference. Firefox 25, Windows 7... Fram (talk) 09:28, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Works fine for me (Vector, Chrome 30, Win7) on all sorts of pages. Some take a little time to load, but all show up with the diff in the preview area, and the changes carried through to the source editor below. My thanks to whoever implemented this feature, that one less bit of custom coding/hacking to load from my common.js - Evad37 (talk) 10:11, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Fram, would you like to test again? It worked for me as well. I'm going to try it in your sandbox :) --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 11:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Mmm. Maybe it's FF. Retesting. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 11:07, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Fram, would you like to test again? It worked for me as well. I'm going to try it in your sandbox :) --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 11:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Works fine for me (Vector, Chrome 30, Win7) on all sorts of pages. Some take a little time to load, but all show up with the diff in the preview area, and the changes carried through to the source editor below. My thanks to whoever implemented this feature, that one less bit of custom coding/hacking to load from my common.js - Evad37 (talk) 10:11, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- (ec)No, still doesn't work. I get the "you are about to change" message, but then the VE page gets "bleached" out, as if an opaque glass is put in front of it, and nothing further happens. I can still use the toolbox at this time, and can edit the article in VE, but it doesn't have the normal look. Probably some preference interfering with it? Fram (talk) 11:15, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- My guess is it's FF, as I can't switch with it as well, and I'm filing a bug right now. Thanks for the catch, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 11:16, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Now at 56767. Will "bug" devs on IRC as soon as someone wakes up. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 11:26, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- My guess is it's FF, as I can't switch with it as well, and I'm filing a bug right now. Thanks for the catch, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 11:16, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- (ec)No, still doesn't work. I get the "you are about to change" message, but then the VE page gets "bleached" out, as if an opaque glass is put in front of it, and nothing further happens. I can still use the toolbox at this time, and can edit the article in VE, but it doesn't have the normal look. Probably some preference interfering with it? Fram (talk) 11:15, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for testing and confirming, and my apologies for using such an exotic browser :-D Fram (talk) 11:27, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I had noticed that (in Firefox) and was going to make a note about it, but I guess I forgot:Jay8g [V•T•E] 20:00, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- No problem. He Who Shall Not Be Named (James :p) knows about this bug, so keep your finger crossed. Happy weekend everyone! --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 20:04, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- Elitre (WMF), has a bug be raised to fix the original problems identified in the first comment by Jay8g in this thread? John Vandenberg (chat) 00:40, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Hey John. There's no need to raise a bug for that. There are a few bugs about that feature (the first is already patch-to-review while the second, 56835, likely depends on another patch-to review one) that prevent a lot of users from even just testing it. When they are addressed, I (and other liaisons) will be glad to make sure that all the related messages and pages in, well, all languages reflect that this major feature is up and running. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:35, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- Elitre (WMF), has a bug be raised to fix the original problems identified in the first comment by Jay8g in this thread? John Vandenberg (chat) 00:40, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- No problem. He Who Shall Not Be Named (James :p) knows about this bug, so keep your finger crossed. Happy weekend everyone! --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 20:04, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Strange typing
I have noticed similar things quite regularly, but never could find an example that was reproducable...
Open [8], click the ref ([1]), click the ref icon, click on the image, click the image icon, and start typing (e.g; "Caption"). The "C" goes to the second line, and "aption" appears on the first line. It is impssible to remove the C, as far as I can tell. Further typing, e.g. after the C, may reveal further strange results... Saving this shows that it is not simply a VE display problem, but that things get actually saved like this... [9]
Further tests show me that if I add an image or open one without a caption, and start typing the caption (any caption), I always get this result. FF25, Windows 7. Fram (talk) 15:27, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
- I can reproduce the weird 'C' being placed on the second line, and not being able to remove it, however when I tried to save the diff only shows 'aption'. FF25/Linux John Vandenberg (chat) 17:24, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
My favorite VE edit
I use VE once in a while for simple edits. Today I made this edit to add quotation marks for song titles and used the edit summary "added quotation marks". When I checked my edit after saving, I was surprised to see that VE correctly added some additional quotation marks in <ref name>
tags, but was happy it was consistent with my edit summary. :-) GoingBatty (talk) 00:45, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- I think we've seen VE doing this before, and it's an unnecessary and undesirable change: quote marks are not needed round single-word reference names, and personally I carefully choose single-word or hyphenated names to avoid the unnecessary clutter (and extra keystrokes) of using quote marks. I don't know why VE does this "genfix", but it shouldn't do so. See WP:NAMEDREFS: "Quotes are optional if the only characters used are letters A–Z, a–z, digits 0–9 and the symbols !$%&()*,-.:;<@[]^_`{|}~". PamD 08:37, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Baruch Spinoza references in captions
This bug page [10] has the note "RESOLVED FIXED", but the references 19 and 20 in Baruch Spinoza which are in image captions disappear from the references list in VE and the numbering becomes discombobulated. Win7 FF 24.0 Monobook. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 05:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- I thought this could be related to another, still open bug, but I can't find which one (the two in the "see also" field for example are not resolved, but look different). If nobody has further ideas on this, I'll reopen that one. (For the record, those refs are now 20 and 21, I think.) --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:11, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Toc Toc. Who's there?
When using VE, the TOC disappears (tested in Flags of counties of the United States and Auto racing). I don't think this happened already before the weekend, I think I would have noticed it... FF25, Windows 7. Fram (talk) 14:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- I'm here, and you missed 49224! --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:59, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks! Funny how we (well, I) can miss things that have been lacking for so long... Fram (talk) 15:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Refs in galeries create errors
I think this was noted a few months ago, but bringing it back to make sure won't hurt. In Flags of counties of the United States, there are references inside galleries (which isn't uncommon). In VE, you get big red "Cite error" notices for these. Fram (talk) 14:58, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- Just confirming this bug. It complains there is no reflist for refgroup 'N', but the page does contain {{Reflist|group=N}}. I've tested with a longer group name, and without any group name. The group name isnt part of the problem. --John Vandenberg (chat) 05:05, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
Disappearing and reappearing text
Can anyone confirm this for me?
- Open a page with pre-existing content.
- Type or change some of the text (I was adding a new first line).
- Select and cut (⌘ Command+x) some pre-existing text (I cut mine from the third line).
- Notice that what you typed on the first line has been undone.
- Paste what you cut (in my case, at the end of the first line).
- Notice that what you typed on the first line has been redone.
I ran into this over at office.wikimedia, but office is also running MediaWiki version 1.23wmf3 (2ac963d), so it should behave the same here. I particularly want to know whether this is a Mac/Safari/Vector issue, or if it also happens elsewhere. Thanks, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:21, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Confirmed, mostly, with Vector/Chrome 30/Windows 7 – except that the first letter of the line does not disappear. The missing text only reappears when the cut text is pasted onto the line with the missing text. - Evad37 [talk] 00:14, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Some positive feedback
I did a significant copy-edit of an article today, using VisualEditor as much as possible. There were still a few things I had to use wikitext for (in particular, accented letters and some odd template stuff), but on the whole I was able to complete the edits with just VisualEditor. I would not have been able to do that four months ago. Good work on the steady progress. Risker (talk) 06:40, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- Hey Risker. Your words are appreciated. Did you have a chance to test the "Switch to wikitext" feature yet? Regards, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 12:31, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Question
Is there any update about this bug? It's been almost a month since it was reported and I don't see any difference. Thank you TeamGale 06:46, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Disappearing templates
I noted some weeks ago that some navboxes disappear when you try to move them in VE. I can add now that the "authority control" template has the same problem (disappears after moving, "save button" freezes after you have reviewed that change). Tested on David B. Feinberg. Fram (talk) 10:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Oh, and stub templates as well apparently! Tested on Tessie Santiago.
And succession boxes. Tested on Gennady Golovkin. Fram (talk) 13:18, 15 November 2013 (UTC)