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League seasons
Hello. Is there a policy about league seasons of a national championship? I haven't find anything in Wikipedia:Notability (sports). Xaris333 (talk) 11:29, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
- I don't quite understand. What are you thinking of creating? An article for each championship year? Dig Deeper (talk) 01:39, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- Dear Xaris333 , please see WP:NSEASONS. --167.58.26.216 (talk) 19:11, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- WP:NSEASONS is for individual seasons of teams in top professional leagues, as these articles almost always meet the notability requirements. Like 2015–16 Leicester City F.C. season. My question is about articles like 2015–16 Football League Two. Xaris333 (talk) 19:16, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- I'd have thought 2015–16 Football League Two meets WP:GNG. Local newspapers dedicate acres of space to this sort of thing. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:29, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- WP:NSEASONS is for individual seasons of teams in top professional leagues, as these articles almost always meet the notability requirements. Like 2015–16 Leicester City F.C. season. My question is about articles like 2015–16 Football League Two. Xaris333 (talk) 19:16, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- Dear Xaris333 , please see WP:NSEASONS. --167.58.26.216 (talk) 19:11, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Separate articles for covers
Hello, everyone. I wrote the following proposal here two years ago, but I'm copying it here as it's something supposed for the whole Wikipedia and not only a certain article:
Hi, I wanted you to notice the fact that on the Spanish Wikipedia we've reached a consensus that we can create separate articles for cover versions if they meet the general policies. I think that's so useful, and even more in such famous songs like this one, wich have been covered many times, some of which are notable enough so a separate article can be written. We avoid having multiple infoboxes, which are there, in fact, for very different things: the "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" cover by the Flaming Lips and Miley Cyrus have a lot of differences in many senses from the Beatles songs (year, or decade, genre, performers, composers of some elements, critical reception, commercial reception, singles chronology, Wikipedia categories, etc.). Not to mention that many readers can find themselves confused by an article of the Beatles that eventually can end up talking extensively about Miley Cyrus. So, in Spanish we have the original Beatles song and the cover version. I think that it should be considered for the English edition :) --Jorge (talk) 04:14, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
- It happens occasionally at English Wikipedia as well. See "Sloop John B" and "The John B. Sails" --Jayron32 09:42, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
- While we do have a few exceptions... past consensus here on the English WP has been to NOT have separate articles for cover versions of songs... but to include them in a "cover versions" section within the song's article. Of course, consensus can always change. Whether it will change is another question entirely (personally, I would be against separate articles, but that's just me). Blueboar (talk) 17:02, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
- The consensus here has been against separate articles for quite awhile (see WP:COVERSONG). Although in some respects a cover may be notable (notable artist, charts, awards, etc.), seldom is there enough discussion about it in reliable sources from which to build a standalone article, which is necessary to meet WP:NSONGS. Since it is adapted from the original, any discussion of the events that lead up to the songwriting, lyrics meanings, compositional techniques, etc., would just duplicate the article on the original. Most of the information is about when and where it was recorded, its place in the artist's catalogue, charts, performances, etc. The Spanish "Lucy" by the Flaming Lips article is a good example. It says nothing about the song, except charts and a few performances (the only references are to Billboard charts and one performance review). It is unlikely that this article will ever be expanded and may be a WP:PERMASTUB. I don't think that its inclusion in the main Beatles song article would be confusing, since it is relatively short (too short for its own infobox IMO). Including multiple renditions in one article also has the benefit of showing a song's development over the years (see "Train Kept A-Rollin'", "Stormy Monday", "Baby, Please Don't Go", etc.). —Ojorojo (talk) 19:19, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
What is our approach to trademarks in this difficult case?
There is a type a rifle (lightweight intermediate cartridge magazine-fed air-cooled semi-automatic rifle with a rotating lock bolt, actuated by direct impingement gas-operation or long/short stroke piston operation). The originating model of this type of rifle was named "AR-15". AR-15's are still made, by the Colt Manufacturing Company, under that trademarked name.
Very similar rifles are made by some other companies. They are (universally, I gather) referred to as "AR-15's" -- not only informally by gun people in conversation, but in the pages of gun magazines and so forth. There is simply no generic term for these entities -- "AR-15" is the only word for these things. (It's sort of as if there was no term "sports car", only the term "Ferrari" for all sports cars, or whatever.)
In spite of this, Colt Manufacturing defends its trademark, I am given to understand. The fact that (I gather) gun magazine editors etc. don't pay attention to them on this subject indicates they are not defending successfully. But they are trying, and no judge has formally ruled that they have failed and that "AR-15" has falled to the status of a genericized trade mark. De facto it may have (although I question Wikipedia's standing to make that judgement). (FWIW I think no non-Colt manufacturer has gone so far as to use a model name of "AR-15", though; whether other manufactures go so far as writing in their marketing materials "Meet the StreetSweeper, the newest AR-15 from North American Veeblefletzer", I do not know.)
So... how do we refer to these types of a rifles? Can our article about this type of rifle be named AR-15s (a suggested name)? How about AR-15 variants (the current name) or AR-15-type rifles?
I believe that is we had an article listing brands of facial tissue, we could not -- even if we wanted to -- title it Brands of kleenex. Correct? What about Brands of kleenex-like tissue -- maybe that would be OK? This is above my pay grade.
The problem here is there is no alternative term for "AR-15", as there is for "kleenex" (you can say "facial tissue"). (Instead of "AR-15" you can say "lightweight intermediate cartridge magazine-fed air-cooled semi-automatic rifle with a rotating lock bolt, actuated by direct impingement gas-operation or long/short stroke piston operation" bat that's too long to be useful.)
We certainly want to avoid violating Colt's trademark rights, helping push their valuable trademark toward genericized-trademark status, or position ourselves to be the subject (at least in theory) of a valid cease-and-desist letter. On the the other hand, is there any point to being behind the curve if de facto Colt has really already lost the game?
I see no useful guidance at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks or Wikipedia:Copyrights, nor is the Wikipedia:Copyright problems board the right venue for this, so I ask here for guidance. Herostratus (talk) 01:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- Even if we referred to all assault rifles as AR-15s, we would not be violating Colt's trademark, since we are not selling any guns, nor are we coordinating with anyone who is. Trademark law in the US has precisely zero bearing on how third-parties refer to a trademark-holder's products. So you can just ignore the legal issues and follow the sources, whatever they say. Also, I'm surprised to hear this. I had always seen them referred to as "AR-15 style weapons" and the like. Maybe we're reading different sources. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- Go with the sources and call them AR-15s. Add a name section at the top like the Vacuum cleaner article has done for Hoover - X201 (talk) 10:48, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- We're not talking about how we refer to Colt product, but rather to non-Colt products. My understanding is that, if in a published movie review a person writes "In the final scene, Julia reaches for a kleenex as she xeroxes the love letter" (rather than "...reaches for a tissue as she photocopies...") they are at least theoretically liable to get request-for-correction letters from Kimberly-Clark and Xerox Corporation. And if they egregiously ignore that, I believe that Kimberly-Clark and Xerox may at least theoretically request an injunction (not sure about that part). Is this not correct? And if it is correct, it would apply to us as much as to Movie Reviews Magazine, I would think, and it that is true, why should we give less consideration to Colt then we would to any other company with a valuable trademark? Herostratus (talk) 02:04, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- No, Herostratus. No no no no no. Someguy1221 has already explained this, above. You infringe someone else's trademark if you seek to trade by using their trademark. You do not do anything more than piss them off if you use their trademark in a way in which they'd prefer you not to - such as the example you give. Here's our very crappy article on Trademark infringement. Trademarks can become Generic trademarks, and in doing so, can lose all of their former power. Companies may try to stop this happening by getting pissy with the reviewer in your example, seeking to stop her from using their precious trademark in a general way. The reviewer is entitled to bid them stick their concerns where the sun does not shine. The company can certainly apply for an injunction, but not even an East Texas court will give them one. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:19, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- Well, it doesn't matter how many no's you string together, I don't think you understand intellectual property law. Trademark dilution opens with "Trademark dilution is a trademark law concept giving the owner of a famous trademark standing to forbid others from using that mark in a way that would lessen its uniqueness". I'm not convinced that there is some unique property of the Colt Manufacturing Company that they may not avail themselves of this protection.
- No, Herostratus. No no no no no. Someguy1221 has already explained this, above. You infringe someone else's trademark if you seek to trade by using their trademark. You do not do anything more than piss them off if you use their trademark in a way in which they'd prefer you not to - such as the example you give. Here's our very crappy article on Trademark infringement. Trademarks can become Generic trademarks, and in doing so, can lose all of their former power. Companies may try to stop this happening by getting pissy with the reviewer in your example, seeking to stop her from using their precious trademark in a general way. The reviewer is entitled to bid them stick their concerns where the sun does not shine. The company can certainly apply for an injunction, but not even an East Texas court will give them one. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:19, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- We're not talking about how we refer to Colt product, but rather to non-Colt products. My understanding is that, if in a published movie review a person writes "In the final scene, Julia reaches for a kleenex as she xeroxes the love letter" (rather than "...reaches for a tissue as she photocopies...") they are at least theoretically liable to get request-for-correction letters from Kimberly-Clark and Xerox Corporation. And if they egregiously ignore that, I believe that Kimberly-Clark and Xerox may at least theoretically request an injunction (not sure about that part). Is this not correct? And if it is correct, it would apply to us as much as to Movie Reviews Magazine, I would think, and it that is true, why should we give less consideration to Colt then we would to any other company with a valuable trademark? Herostratus (talk) 02:04, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- You are saying it would be both legally and morally proper for us to have a article titled List of kleenex brands, thereby serving to materially dilute the value of Kimberly-Clark's trademark (tradmarks are considered a corporate asset and and often valued at many millions of dollars) and ushering us closer to a world were I can sell "Veeblefletzer brand kleenexes" (as I can with aspirin). Even if this is perfectly legally proper -- I remain skeptical, if Kimberly-Clark is protecting the copyright, but I'm willing to be educated on this, by a copyright lawyer -- it is wrong IMO. We are supposed to protect the reusability of our material, and "Well, it's technically legal to re-use this material, but you're screwing the Colt Corporation" falls short of what our standard ought to be, maybe. Herostratus (talk) 04:03, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- 15 U.S. Code Section 1125(c)(1): "Subject to the principles of equity, the owner of a famous mark that is distinctive, inherently or through acquired distinctiveness, shall be entitled to an injunction against another person who, at any time after the owner’s mark has become famous, commences use of a mark or trade name in commerce that is likely to cause dilution by blurring or dilution by tarnishment of the famous mark, regardless of the presence or absence of actual or likely confusion, of competition, or of actual economic injury." Later in 1125(c)(3): '"The following shall not be actionable as dilution by blurring or dilution by tarnishment under this subsection:... (B) All forms of news reporting and news commentary. [and] (C) Any noncommercial use of a mark." Actual case law, as well as legal theory, takes a very dim view of litigants who have tried to use trademark law to stop people from talking about their marks, even incorrectly. At OTRS, at least when I was a regular, we would get these complaints all the time. It was treated as a non-issue, and as far as I'm aware, Wikimedia Foundation lawyers were never concerned about the possibility of being sued over it. That aside, I do think referring to every gun similar to an AR-15 as an AR-15 is a mistake. Just for the sake of avoiding ambiguity, we shouldn't do that, even if some news sources do. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:17, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- Don't put (stupid) words into my mouth. I'm capable of being stupid without your kind assistance. 1. I have not said anything about morality, one way or another. 2. I have not said anything about the legality of an article such as List of kleenex brands, except by inference - it would be a stupid article title. 3. I have said that trademark infringement requires the infringer to be trading in something or other. If you had troubled to read the second sentence of the article you pointed to, and, indeed, the rest of the article, you would have found much to support the view that dilution occurs as a result of some sort of trading activity, not mere use of a term in a way that displeases the trademark owner. You confuse dilution with genericisation. They are distinct things. Trademarks protect the use of the protected term in matters of trade. The clue is in the name. Trademarks do not protect the term absent trade. "but I'm willing to be educated on this, by a copyright lawyer", you say (even though we were discussing trademarks ... easy mistake to make). Here's one: Simon, Ilanah (Summer 2006). "The Actual Dilution Requirement in the United States, United Kingdom and European Union: A Comparative Analysis" (PDF). Journal of Science & Technology Law. 12 (2). Come back when you've waded through that. --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:36, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- Regarding the statement, "...referring to every gun similar to an AR-15 as an AR-15 is a mistake. Just for the sake of avoiding ambiguity, we shouldn't do that, even if some news sources do". In fact, not only news sources but firearms experts refer to this class of weapons as "AR-15s".[1][2][3][4][5][6] In many cases they mention "Colt" rarely if at all. It is the common term. Some news sources and others refer to "AR-15-style" firearms, or similar equivocations, but they are a minority.
- As for enforcement by Colt, it appears to be nonexistent. Many manufacturers and retailers refer to their non-Colt products as "AR-15s", for example, Stag Arms: "Browse our selection of AR15 Rifles.", or this retailer: "Buy a fully-assembled AR-15 at Primary Arms and choose from brands like Radical Firearms, Daniel Defense, Spikes Tactical, and more." And more: [7][8][9] I can't speak to the theoretical legal issues, but in practice this seems to be a non-issue.
- The reason this matters is that numerous sources make statements about "AR-15s", saying things like, "The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America." A title we're using now on Wikipedia, AR-15 variants, has two problems: first, "variants" implies a subset of weapons derived from the original AR-15, rather than an overview of the entire class, and second, no source uses that term. As it stands now, there is no article where we can summarize what reliable sourcs say about this class of mostly interchangeable firearms. Felsic2 (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- OK, OK, I stand corrected! Everyone seems to agree that as long as we are not abrogating the trademark by distributing a firearm called the "WikiMedia AR-15" we are free to use the term however we like. It follows from that that we are free to rename the article Facial tissue to Kleenex (after clearing the way by moving the current Kleenex to Kleenex (brand)) -- very similar circumstances, I'd have to think. (Whether we should do that depends on analyzing the data and how to best apply WP:COMMONNAME to take readers where most expect to go. But quite possibly. But that question doesn't apply to AR-15s, though -- most people associate "AR-15" with the type, I am informed.) So I learned something today. Back to the RM then and thanks to all who corresponded. Herostratus (talk) 21:01, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Adding credit line to the article
Hi.
Imagine a User:John Doe writes a Wikipedia article. Is he allowed to add the following to the bottom of the article?
==About the author==
This article is written by [https://www.example.com John Doe], an established expert in the field of XXXXX.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 07:42, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- If I understand correctly your question, no. WP:Attribution#Citing yourself. When you write (actually create) a new article WP:RS must be used. Anyone can edit it. So you are not an author but a content creator. Your participation is recorded in the history. Short route to chaos if it was permitted. Leaky Caldron 07:55, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- Well, in the case of the article that I am looking at, WP:RS is amply used, but the primary contributor felt he needs to add such an advertisement section, which I felt was wrong but also felt I need to know how to tell him not to do it, e.g. cite a good policy. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 09:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- If you need to quote chapter-and-verse, the policy is WP:OWNBEHAVIOR, and the exact wording (at the time of writing) is
Since no one "owns" any Wikipedia content, content should not be signed. The exact contributions of all editors are seen with their names on the page history.
; if someone's having trouble understanding why we don't allow this, a good way to explain it is that "anyone can edit" could mean that in 30 seconds time the article may be changed to say something with which they profoundly disagree, and do they really want their name attached to it as the author in that case? ‑ Iridescent 09:57, 17 November 2016 (UTC)- Thanks a lot. I'll bear that in mind.
- Of course, this certain article (Maybe I should name it and provide a diff?) is so specialized that I doubt anyone except this certain author can make such a dramatic change in the near future: 23 sources, 22 of them journals, 18 of them paywalled. It is only lucky that you told me about OWNBEHAVIOR. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 13:05, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
- Yes please, what is the title of the article? Herostratus (talk) 02:07, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- Virtual machining. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:20, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- OK. Well, the article seems OK now, and the editor has been blocked (not for signing articles, but for multiple accounts, I infer that that all this was part of a self-promotion scheme). Herostratus (talk) 18:27, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- Virtual machining. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:20, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- Yes please, what is the title of the article? Herostratus (talk) 02:07, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
- If you need to quote chapter-and-verse, the policy is WP:OWNBEHAVIOR, and the exact wording (at the time of writing) is
- Well, in the case of the article that I am looking at, WP:RS is amply used, but the primary contributor felt he needs to add such an advertisement section, which I felt was wrong but also felt I need to know how to tell him not to do it, e.g. cite a good policy. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 09:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Proposal: AfD with no participants should be relisted indefinitely, not closed, until there is at least one other participant
Please see and discuss the proposal here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:41, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Establishments in (location) by (year) articles for times when (location) didn't exist
We probably need some clarification, policy-wise, on how to handle situations like I just found at Category:Establishments in Spain by year. See, "Spain" is not a concept which has existed forever, even historiographically speaking, the earliest one could consider a place called "Spain" would have been the 16th century. Prior to that were places like "Castile" and "Leon", etc. Likewise Category:Establishments in France by year has establishments as early as 365; there weren't even Franks in the area! The Manual of Style specifically notes we should use the name of the place at the time the event occurred, to quote "An article about Junipero Serra should say he lived in Alta Mexico not the U.S. state of California because the latter entity did not exist at the time of Junipero Serra. The Romans invaded Gaul, not France, and Thabo Mbeki was the president of the Republic of South Africa, not of the Cape Colony." I am not aware of any exception carved out for categories, so, for example, the Ancient Diocese of Toul should NOT be categorized in Category:365 establishments in France but rather in Category:365 establishments in Gaul. I'm also not quite sure where to cross-post this discussion, so if anyone has suggestions for where, or if I should move this to a better page, let me know and I will do so. This page seems to have the wider readership... --Jayron32 16:54, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Talk pages vs. reference desks
I would like to know if anyone has an opinion about discontinuing talk pages (applies only to articles, not templates, categories, etc.) and using the reference desks instead for improvements. Talk pages of articles that are not on many people's watchlists are often not bothered for a long time. Georgia guy (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
- Do you mean these reference desks? Cause those are for things that have nothing to do with Wikipedia. And dumping all article improvement talk on them would be an enormously bad idea. Besides the overwhelming nature of those things it would make it harder to focus on the article you want. We have be bold for a reason. If an article isn't watched by a lot of people (note that watching an article also watches its talk page) then you are invited to just improve it. --Majora (talk) 23:49, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
- Let's think. Replace 5+ million talk pages with 1 reference desk page. What could go wrong. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
- Georgia guy you are correct that there are, at a minimum, 10s of 1000s of article that are not on any active editors watchlists. You can go to the Wikiproject(s) listed on the talk page to make suggestions/ask questions. Granted many of them are now inactive so the next step is to go the various noticeboards (Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard for example) available. Majora's point about just taking the bull by the horns and editing a given article is a good one. MarnetteD|Talk 00:30, 20 November 2016 (UTC)