Another Believer (talk | contribs) Tag: Reply |
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*::::@[[User:Another Believer|Another Believer]] there is no policy or guideline this admin has broken. Mandatory disclosure under our current rules is required only if there has been paid editing. This admin says (and there is '''''zero''''' evidence to suggest otherwise) that they have not edited, used the tools, etc. They have instead offered advise and suggestions off-wiki. It's precisely because there is this gap between what we allow and what I think we should allow that I started this conversation. Best [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 15:44, 14 September 2023 (UTC) |
*::::@[[User:Another Believer|Another Believer]] there is no policy or guideline this admin has broken. Mandatory disclosure under our current rules is required only if there has been paid editing. This admin says (and there is '''''zero''''' evidence to suggest otherwise) that they have not edited, used the tools, etc. They have instead offered advise and suggestions off-wiki. It's precisely because there is this gap between what we allow and what I think we should allow that I started this conversation. Best [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 15:44, 14 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::::@[[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] Did you mean to ping me? I have not participated in this discussion thus far. ---[[User:Another Believer|<span style="color:navy">Another Believer</span>]] <sub>([[User talk:Another Believer|<span style="color:#C60">Talk</span>]])</sub> 16:02, 14 September 2023 (UTC) |
*:::::@[[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] Did you mean to ping me? I have not participated in this discussion thus far. ---[[User:Another Believer|<span style="color:navy">Another Believer</span>]] <sub>([[User talk:Another Believer|<span style="color:#C60">Talk</span>]])</sub> 16:02, 14 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::::Nope meant to ping @[[User:A. B.|A. B.]]. Sorry about that. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 16:41, 14 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*:::(ec) This sounds good, but I think the principles you're invoking -- payment vs. transparency -- don't actually break down in the way you're implying. I work for a company whose founder has an article on Wikipedia, and there's a controversy about the founder that has made it into national papers multiple times. I'm paid by that company. If the CEO asks me how to edit the article to reflect his view of the founder, and I tell him about the COI rules, I've advised him (that is, I've told him he should do no such thing). Are you saying I should then post a COI note on my user page? (I've not posted any such note to date because I have no intention of ever editing that or any article with which I might have a COI.). If I told him how to subvert the rules, sure, I'm a bad person. But the problem with that is not that it's advice, it's that it's advice that goes against the Wikipedia ethos. I suppose you could argue that one should disclose a COI if one plans to advise one's clients how to get around Wikipedia rules but that's unlikely to be useful. [[User:Mike Christie|Mike Christie]] ([[User_talk:Mike Christie|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Mike_Christie|contribs]] - [[User:Mike Christie/Reference library|library]]) 03:41, 14 September 2023 (UTC) |
*:::(ec) This sounds good, but I think the principles you're invoking -- payment vs. transparency -- don't actually break down in the way you're implying. I work for a company whose founder has an article on Wikipedia, and there's a controversy about the founder that has made it into national papers multiple times. I'm paid by that company. If the CEO asks me how to edit the article to reflect his view of the founder, and I tell him about the COI rules, I've advised him (that is, I've told him he should do no such thing). Are you saying I should then post a COI note on my user page? (I've not posted any such note to date because I have no intention of ever editing that or any article with which I might have a COI.). If I told him how to subvert the rules, sure, I'm a bad person. But the problem with that is not that it's advice, it's that it's advice that goes against the Wikipedia ethos. I suppose you could argue that one should disclose a COI if one plans to advise one's clients how to get around Wikipedia rules but that's unlikely to be useful. [[User:Mike Christie|Mike Christie]] ([[User_talk:Mike Christie|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Mike_Christie|contribs]] - [[User:Mike Christie/Reference library|library]]) 03:41, 14 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*::::*If you’re asked to give advice, do what you’re told and send ArbCom a note. Disclose on your user page that you are an employee of the XYZ Corp. |
*::::*If you’re asked to give advice, do what you’re told and send ArbCom a note. Disclose on your user page that you are an employee of the XYZ Corp. |
Revision as of 16:41, 14 September 2023
Policy | Technical | Proposals | Idea lab | WMF | Miscellaneous |
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Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequently rejected or ignored proposals. Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for two weeks.
Proposal to remove "rearrangement of text" from definition of minor edit.
It is currently suggested on Help:Minor_edit to mark rearrangement of text without modification of the content
as a minor edit. I am suggesting removing this, because content prominence management is more controversial than ever before with only the lede showing up by default on mobile browsing and the desire of interested editors to control prominence of contents. The location of text within article can often be a highly contentious dispute even if the meaning doesn't change and I am suggesting no longer recommending rearrangement of text as minor. Graywalls (talk) 22:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support - per Graywalls' statement, the location of text can be significant. Also not that the "rearrangement of text" is only mentioned in the "rule of thumb" last paragraph, but not mentioned in the preceding descriptive text. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- Assuming you're referring to the last paragraph of the lead, the issue is that the rule of thumb mentioned there isn't restricted – as it should be – to non-contentious edits. Suggest adding "non-contentious" to the opening words, so that the sentence reads A good rule of thumb is that non-contentious edits consisting solely of spelling corrections, formatting changes, or rearrangement of text without modification of the content should be flagged as minor edits. MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:51, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- The original phrase "rearrangement of text without modification of the content" seems self-contradictory, as one cannot "rearrange" something without modifying it. The original wording is nonsensical. I presume what was intended, was "rearrangement of text without modification of the meaning". Mathglot (talk) 20:15, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think it is intended to mean "without changing any non-space characters". But, regardless, the whole page is so unclear it's not surprising that editors disagree about how to use the feature.
I Oppose the proposal as written and also any broadening the scope of minor edits to "without modification of the meaning". But I Support a collaborative effort to re-write the page entirely.MichaelMaggs (talk) 07:52, 20 August 2023 (UTC) Based on subsequent arguments, I've changed my view to "throw it all away", and I've voted for that separately below. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:06, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think it is intended to mean "without changing any non-space characters". But, regardless, the whole page is so unclear it's not surprising that editors disagree about how to use the feature.
- The original phrase "rearrangement of text without modification of the content" seems self-contradictory, as one cannot "rearrange" something without modifying it. The original wording is nonsensical. I presume what was intended, was "rearrangement of text without modification of the meaning". Mathglot (talk) 20:15, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support — There are quite a few edit wars over the placement of text. A particularly prevalent example is when text is moved in and out of the lead section. Zerotalk 09:08, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed. In addition to my proposal above, it would help a lot if it were to be stated clearly somewhere on the page that moving text between the lead and the body of an article, in either direction, never counts as a minor edit. MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:02, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- It doesn't have to involve movement between body and lede to be major. There are multiple ways within the body to move things around so flattering items are placed prominently while unflattering things are buried in the haystack. An example of reputation management edit by a suspected public relations editor is changing the arbitration break, such as changing from 2010-2020, 2020 to current: to 2010-2015, 2015-current in order to make unflattering things go away from the latest history section. Graywalls (talk) 21:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose as per MichaelMaggs's concerns. While there are certainly contentious movings of text, an awful lot of what I see is things like fixing the order of a alphabetized or date-based list, where small errors are common and the minor status is appropriate. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 20:54, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Apparently having information in the second section of the lead instead of the first sentence can be equivalent to covering for rapists[1] and protecting convicted child molesters/rapists[2], so it is clearly not minor. There can be an exception for rearranging alphabetically, by date, or similar neutral criteria. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 21:11, 12 August 2023 (UTC) Edit: I would not be opposed to getting rid of the entire minor edit system as proposed by others. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 19:57, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose The purpose of minor edits is to mark changes that have negligible chance of creating controversy. While rearranging text might be controversial in some cases, in many cases, it's indeed a minor edit. Moving content into or out of the lead probably shouldn't be minor, but moving a clearly misplaced paragraph between sections is a textbook minor edit. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 01:53, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - I have seen huge edit wars over “minor” edits. Thus, there are times when I think we should scrap the entire system of classifying edits as major or minor. It isn’t serving it’s intended purpose.
- Then I remember how many times I have seen bad faith editors attempt to “hide” major changes by marking them as minor, and I realize that the marking is useful in a way NOT intended - it tells me that I need to pay EXTRA attention to any edit so marked. Blueboar (talk) 21:41, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support If editors are "fixing the order of a alphabetized or date-based list, where small errors are common", then sure, mark those edits as minor; but the 'good rule of thumb' sentence shouldn't state so plainly that "rearrangement of text without modification of the content should be flagged as minor edits" (emphasis mine), since possible WP:NPOV/WP:WEIGHT violations will be marked as "minor". Per WP:NPOV:
Undue weight can be given in several ways, including ... prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements....
Some1 (talk) 02:26, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose (but support potential rewrite) First of all, if the major/minor distinction is important, then the mobile platform should support it. Second, when I rehab bad machine translation, word order is a big part of what I am fixing. Usually this is within the same sentence mind you, but I think there aren't enough use cases in the proposal, and it *is* "rearranging text". Third, I too have seen SEO-like efforts to get certain things in the lede, and support specifically excluding moves into and out of the lede from being called minor. Those are not minor edits. If it comes to rearranging sentence order or paragraph order, at best this is a rewrite for organization and probably not minor either, but that's discussable, I guess. Really though, if the mobile platform doesn't need it why does anyone else? Especially as it's so often abused. Elinruby (talk) 06:21, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
- If in doubt, it should always be a non-minor edit. Not being able to flag as minor is not an issue like those who edit for PR purposes that intentionally utilize minor edits to evade scrutiny and reduce the attention their edits get. We're increasing seeing things like name drops, office locations, as well as awards/accolades/honors in lede, because these are often things article subject wants to highlight and be part of the first impression. Graywalls (talk) 07:13, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
- I understand the problem and when I saw it, it was a determined attempt to insert into the lede a claim being actively touted by Russian propaganda outlets, so yes, I understand that SEO is often at work with these. My suggestion however is still to rewrite the wording, but in a different way rather than making a blanket prohibition.
- As far as the mobile platform goes, I also get it that the stereotype of mobile users is not good and may in some cases be justified. I just...see so much drama over this on the dramah boards that I can't help but ask why the 'minor edit" distinction is needed. Of course you and I know that it avoids wasting editor time, but that's not a priority on en-wikipedia, is it? But don't let my cynicism hijack your thread. I think the wording should change, just not the way you are proposing. Are you specifically interested in the lede moves, or can you enunciate another situation where this is a problem? Elinruby (talk) 11:22, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
- If in doubt, it should always be a non-minor edit. Not being able to flag as minor is not an issue like those who edit for PR purposes that intentionally utilize minor edits to evade scrutiny and reduce the attention their edits get. We're increasing seeing things like name drops, office locations, as well as awards/accolades/honors in lede, because these are often things article subject wants to highlight and be part of the first impression. Graywalls (talk) 07:13, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose but I think Mathglot got it right to suggest, "rearrangement of text without modification of the meaning". When I read the text in question, I see it as rearranging within the same sentence, like moving, "spelling corrections, formatting changes, or rearrangement of text" to "formatting changes, rearrangement of text, or spelling corrections". I would mark that as minor. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 18:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support I had always taken "without modification of the content" to mean changes to white space. Would oppose an expansion to "meaning". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:14, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, but alter the text to "rearrangement of text without modification of the meaning" to repair the nonsense. Even though I would probably only mark it "minor" when done within the same sentence and had considered recommending inserting "...in the same sentence", on reflection I think that's too restrictive, and it would be better to leave it out and let such things be decided by consensus on a case by case basis, as long as it's clear that the slightest change to meaning means it is not minor. Mathglot (talk) 19:21, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Throw the whole system away It's my experience that this topic always causes more heat than light. There are some examples above about how minor edits may draw even more scrutiny, and I remember this entertaining ANI thread where someone got yelled at for marking page moves as minor, when it turns out that MediaWiki always marks page moves as minor. And
Twinkle automatically marks revision restorationsrollbacks are marked as minor, which is probably one of the least minor edits one can make. Ironically, I just did a bunch of copyediting on an article yesterday and the only edit that I did mark minor was rearrangement of text, so idk. If people still really think this is valuable, then in my imaginary techno-utopia, a bot would perform semantic analysis on each edit and do the marking for us. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:00, 18 August 2023 (UTC)- I've long since stopped marking anything I do as minor. I know it's just one click on the checkbox, but even that minimal amount of effort doesn't seem justified by the pointlessness of bothering. RoySmith (talk) 20:20, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- There was a discussion about getting rid of "minor" last March/April, but reactions were mixed. Schazjmd (talk) 20:45, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- Twinkle doesn't mark my restore edits as minor, and my configuration shouldn't be anything special. See here. Dhtwiki (talk) 01:42, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- You're right; I meant the default rollback functionality that rollbackers have, which I erroneously conflated with Twinkle's simulation of such. It's documented on the rollback page that these actions are all marked as minor; example here. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 00:00, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Throw whole system away. I've brought this idea up before at Idea lab. There is a sizeable fraction of editors when asked who are ready to scrap the whole idea of a minor edits and that's very promising because as I explained in the thread, it is a software design mistake. Unfortunately, removal of features in a community project faces an uphill battle because there's something like "feature inertia" where once a feature exists it's hard to remove it without upsetting some people. But overall I think the editors in favor of keeping the minor edit feature made pretty weak arguments why. Since the idea that the minor edit box should be removed is still novel idea and not often brought up, I think the concept needs to be seeded around more before any action is likely to occur; otherwise, it's too shocking a change and there'd be many people opposing by knee-jerk opposes or very hollow "I use it" arguments. Jason Quinn (talk) 21:07, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Jason Quinn, on the assumption that getting rid of it isn't possible, would you be interested in a system that restricts is availability to more experienced editors? Alternatively, we could request a config change so that minor edits aren't hidden by default. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:39, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Even if it's limited to experienced editors, it needs to be a revokable privilege for them as well. But just doing away with it may be better. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:41, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, edits marked as
hide from scrutinyminor should not be hidden by default. —Kusma (talk) 08:31, 20 August 2023 (UTC) - @WhatamIdoing: No. I don't think it should be restricted to experienced users. The problem with the minor edit checkbox is fundamental: It's just an ill-defined semantically-relative concept. Even when well-used "correctly" by an experienced editor, the edits they mark as minor my not be viewed as such by others. The minor edit checkbox is mostly the illusion of a feature and does very little useful. This idea of limiting its availability would make it less prevalent on the project and perhaps slightly increase its value when used but not solve any of the core issues it has. If anything I fear such a change would just prevent its eventual removal. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- The main use seems to be hiding simple reversions from watchlists. (I have that setting disabled, so I still see them.) There seem to be some people who appreciate this, but it might be possible to hide the button for manual reversions and still allow it for bots or Twinkle. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Jason Quinn, on the assumption that getting rid of it isn't possible, would you be interested in a system that restricts is availability to more experienced editors? Alternatively, we could request a config change so that minor edits aren't hidden by default. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:39, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support – Even moves within paragraphs establish context that wasn't there before, and such edits can stand to be scrutinized by other editors, even though I'm usually making such moves in articles that have real coherency problems and don't provoke POV disputes with such edits. My edits are limited to being marked as minor when they are bot-assisted, such as with JWB, which seems to be a convenient use for the tag. Dhtwiki (talk) 03:38, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, the definition of "minor edit" should be made to conform to reality: A "minor edit" is one where the "minor edit" checkbox has been ticked. I don't think this is a useful feature, but we should not waste any time on it. —Kusma (talk) 08:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Throw whole system away. The cognitive load costs of the system outweighs the minor benefits (pun not intended). It's really only marginally useful when filtering the contributions of a non-bot editor you already trust who also happens to make a lot of minor edits, which does happen but is very rare. I agree with some of the discussion above making the ability to mark edits as minor a grantable and revocable privelege. —siroχo 09:51, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Throw the whole system away The minor edit thing has always been pointless, and a pointless source of drama, for all of Wikipedia's history. It's only purpose is to give people a reason to attack people who don't follow arcane and pointless rules about its use. If it didn't exist, nothing bad would happen except that people would stop having a reason to complain about its misuse. --Jayron32 11:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Throw whole system away Per above. I also don't agree with the idea that the minor edit system isn't harmless—its use is often the source of pointless debate, it's used as a way for disruptive editors to escape scrutiny, and is a constant source of confusion for new editors. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 19:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Throw whole system away Minor edits are too often used to try to conceal changes that prove controversial. Agree with Jayron32 and Freedom4U.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:17, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Throw whole system away. Minor edits as a concept have passed their usefulness. Stifle (talk) 12:37, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Throw whole system away. I commented above, but I might as well do the bolded-bulleted thing to make it official. I've also started a thread at WP:VPT#Deprecating minor edits?. RoySmith (talk) 14:11, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Throw whole system away. I initially suggested a revision to the text, but based on later arguments (now supported by five admins), I agree it's best to get rid of the whole thing. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:06, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: The title of this section is Proposal to remove "rearrangement of text" from definition of minor edit. If full deprecation is to be proposed, that probably needs to be set up as a proper RFC with a better title, and with pings to the editors who contributed to the March/April discussion. MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:16, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Throw whole system away. It is so common for those not editing in good faith to mark an edit as minor when it is not, that most edits need to be looked at if they are from an unfamiliar editor. Also, many honest mistakes are made in classifying edits as regular or minor. The few times it can be useful do not justify the overhead of the system. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:19, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Throw the whole system away. If I've ever used this feature myself, it hasn't been for a very long time. It doesn't impact the likelihood of me taking a closer look one whit, either.~TPW 14:45, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)/Archive 48#Completely remove the idea of a "minor edit" Edits marked m are frequently not. Selfstudier (talk) 15:05, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Minor edits are used by bots to suppress pings in talk page edits, and of course that functionality shouldn't be removed. (This was brought up at the VPT thread, but bears mentioning here.) — Qwerfjkltalk 21:16, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- There's a bot flag that should be used for that purpose. RoySmith (talk) 01:42, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- You're right, I was mistaken. As a bot op I should really remember this stuff. — Qwerfjkltalk 21:22, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- @RoySmith: There's no check in the code allowing the bot flag to suppress the page edit notifications, there's only the check for minor edits and the
nominornewtalk
user right. Anomie⚔ 23:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- There's a bot flag that should be used for that purpose. RoySmith (talk) 01:42, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- I support attaching weights to the feature and throwing it in the ocean, but really this should be being addressed with a full, dedicated RfC. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Strong oppose But listen, guys, you can't propose a major change that affects hundreds of thousands of users in a non-RfC that has not been advertised anywhere. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:31, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- People can propose anything they want anywhere. It will need to go through a proper RfC to be enacted, but that doesn't mean people can't talk about it here. RoySmith (talk) 01:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Is there more that needs to be done before such an RFC? If not, then why not have one? Wehwalt (talk) 01:53, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Once the RfC is opened, please advertise this in as many places as possible. The vast majority of editors don't have the Village pumps on their watchlists, or even Centralized discussion and whatnot. Doing away with minor edits — a terrible idea, but I'll save it for the RfC — is a huge change (akin to the Vector 2022 catastrophe) that literally affects almost everyone who edits Wikipedia. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Given that it would necessitate (small) software (setting?) changes it might be a good idea to check in with the people at MediaWiki (or whoever is responsible for which features to use on a particular wiki). -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 17:49, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Random person no 362478479, see WP:VPT#Deprecating minor edits? RoySmith (talk) 17:52, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Is there more that needs to be done before such an RFC? If not, then why not have one? Wehwalt (talk) 01:53, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- People can propose anything they want anywhere. It will need to go through a proper RfC to be enacted, but that doesn't mean people can't talk about it here. RoySmith (talk) 01:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- While I get that some people don't find it useful, others do. An RFC to enable editors to opt out of the minor edit button process would likely succeed. If we had that then those who see no benefit in it could opt out, and those of us who make lots of minor edits could continue to do so without some people knowing whether they were flagged as minor or not. ϢereSpielChequers 19:06, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment It is true that "throw it away" discussion is more general than the title of this topic so it isn't appropriate for any action being taken on minor edits outside the scope of the "rearrangement of text" issue. "Throw it all away" is also a change that requires deep thought and consideration by the devs. The reason the discussion widened is because this topic itself is the kind of discussion created by the confusing nature of what a "minor" edit is. In that sense, the OP's discussion could be viewed as evidence that minor edits have a deeper issue going on. But several things should be pointed out: the arguments against minor edit aren't a purely English wiki problem, it applies to all languages. So ideally no English language only patch-up is made. This deserves a very wide discussion. Applying CSS tweaks and stuff on a single wiki isn't not solving the problem but sweeping it under the rug. Clearly, a much bigger discussion should be had. I'm also reading some of the technical comments being made at VPT and those comments are also very valuable. I think what this thread is on course to establish is that A) there is very strong sentiment against "minor" edits, B) the arguments in favor of keeping minor edits are fairly weak, and C) a serious RFC on removing "minor edits" is justifiable and should be viewed seriously by more than just the English wiki community (eg by other languages, devs and WMF). Jason Quinn (talk) 21:02, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- As an ex-dev, removing a check box is not something that "requires deep thought and consideration by the devs"; in fact, it's the kind of easy learning task one might give to a new dev to learn the wmf environment. Maybe you meant, "requires deep thought by the business unit", but I would disagree with that, too. As far as, "the arguments against minor edit aren't a purely English wiki problem", yes, they are. Or at least, any decision to remove/restrict/alter them at en-wiki is purely an en-wiki issue; we have our rules, other Wikipedias have their rules (other than a common ToU). When one foreign Wikipedia decided to ban all edits from IP users, that was a decision made by consensus there, and implemented by the devs; it didn't affect en-wiki, or anybody else. What we do here at en-wiki about minor edits need not, should not, and I daresay will not affect any other wiki. Mathglot (talk) 02:56, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Deprecating_minor_edits? for the technical aspects. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 12:51, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- The minor edit flag is a courtesy feature. If someone is misusing it, call them out. If you're not interested in it, ignore it. We've had it for 22 years and if it wasn't useful, it would have been removed long before. The energy on display in this discussion (and several nearly identical ones before it) from the detractors would be better spent on lobbying the developers to add a preference for not seeing the minor edit marker. — Scott • talk 00:31, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- ↑↑ This. InfiniteNexus (talk) 02:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- Calling people out on it -- the policing of minor edits -- consumes some reasonable amount of effort, whether it is teaching newbies about what a minor edit is or trying to turn someone over for the abuse of the system. I have yet to see any assertion of an actual usefulness here that is larger than the effort this drains. The idea that we would have gotten rid of something in place is a bit utopian at heart, and doesn't reflect that it takes building up a certain energy to get rid of it. If gotten rid of, people would still be able to type MINOR EDIT in their edit comment if they thought that was important to announce. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:08, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- "A bit utopian at heart" is the original spirit of this entire project! Minor edits were invented for the WikiWikiWeb, which I used to edit before Wikipedia existed. At the time (really sounding like Grandpa Simpson here) edit summaries and diffs didn't exist, so it was a useful way of telling your colleagues that the edit you'd just made wasn't something which would require much effort to assess. It was a small community that operated on a lot of trust. That flag got picked up when the UseModWiki engine was developed, which also implemented edit summaries, and then both of those were carried over into MediaWiki. At that point, the flag became very much like you describe, a way of saying "MINOR EDIT" but without having to type it every time. The effort of "policing" it, though, shouldn't be any more than the effort of reviewing any other edit in the course of your activity. Every edit gets reviewed, either immediately by a bot or filter, or eventually by a person. It's a person's job to decide whether an editor was truthful in their summary. We've all seen people write "fix typo" but actually add bad content, or similar. That's a problem which requires intervention. If anything, the minor edit flag gives people who are going to do that a way to make their bad behavior even more obvious. When you consider the flag as just a shortcut for typing some extra words in the summary, the apparent extra effort of reviewing it evaporates. I spend a lot of time looking through article histories for things - being able to scroll past a lot of minor edits and find significant changes is useful. When you look at it that way, the minor edit flag is a little helper for the people who come after you, much like an edit summary is in general. — Scott • talk 10:01, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- I also edited WikiWikiWeb back in the day, and they thought that camel case was a great idea. And ironically, that project became a hub for a software management philosophy where suggestions like "well it's been around for decades so let's just keep it" would fall short. This discussion is about how the flag is used now. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 01:24, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- "A bit utopian at heart" is the original spirit of this entire project! Minor edits were invented for the WikiWikiWeb, which I used to edit before Wikipedia existed. At the time (really sounding like Grandpa Simpson here) edit summaries and diffs didn't exist, so it was a useful way of telling your colleagues that the edit you'd just made wasn't something which would require much effort to assess. It was a small community that operated on a lot of trust. That flag got picked up when the UseModWiki engine was developed, which also implemented edit summaries, and then both of those were carried over into MediaWiki. At that point, the flag became very much like you describe, a way of saying "MINOR EDIT" but without having to type it every time. The effort of "policing" it, though, shouldn't be any more than the effort of reviewing any other edit in the course of your activity. Every edit gets reviewed, either immediately by a bot or filter, or eventually by a person. It's a person's job to decide whether an editor was truthful in their summary. We've all seen people write "fix typo" but actually add bad content, or similar. That's a problem which requires intervention. If anything, the minor edit flag gives people who are going to do that a way to make their bad behavior even more obvious. When you consider the flag as just a shortcut for typing some extra words in the summary, the apparent extra effort of reviewing it evaporates. I spend a lot of time looking through article histories for things - being able to scroll past a lot of minor edits and find significant changes is useful. When you look at it that way, the minor edit flag is a little helper for the people who come after you, much like an edit summary is in general. — Scott • talk 10:01, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- If you think the ability to mark an edit as minor is harmful or even just useless, then you think it means more than it does. It doesn't, of course, mean that the edit itself was indeed minor. You can choose to trust that an edit marked minor was actually minor or not, the same as you may or may not trust an edit summary that says "Fixed typo". What you can be sure of, though, is that its author asserted that it was minor. And that piece of information is still useful regardless of whether you know whether the content of the edit was indeed minor; for example, when compiling a list of authors for attribution. (In particular, whether the minor flag was asserted is one of the few pieces of information the WMF makes publicly, if inconveniently, available for deleted edits.) I'll certainly grant, though, that there's excellent reason to disable the option to hide minor edits from watchlists and recent changes as being fundamentally misleading. —Cryptic 03:42, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- If many of us recognize that many people think it means something other than what it means, and it's this up-front feature presented to every editor on every desktop edit, I feel that's indicative of a problem. —siroχo 10:31, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- Right, if you guys want to get rid of edit "indicators", you should start with the canned edit summaries in the mobile app that newbies abuse all the time. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:06, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Right; if you provide convenience features, there's always going to be someone who uses them wrongly. That's unfortunately just a fact of life for some reason. Sometimes you just have to go knock on your neighbor's door and ask them to stop putting regular trash into the recycling bin. That's better than taking away the recycling bin entirely because it's being misused. — Scott • talk 10:47, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
Language at WP:UPNOT
There's a sentence there that reads "Extremely offensive material may be removed on sight by any editor". Intrepretation of this seems to be a bit vague in terms of whether someone can actually act unilaterally or not for something they percieve as extremely offensive per Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1137#Did I do the right thing here?. I figured this might be suited to a broader community discussion if acting on said language is actually generally discouraged. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 10:18, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- In my experience, trying to police other's userpages generally just creates more drama than it's worth. The issue of "offense" also tends to be fairly subjective. You get a whole bunch of people adding a "Kashmir is a part of India" userbox, and you're liable to create a crap-storm that burns ANI to the ground. I just don't think it's worth a whole lot of community time to try to clean up userpages unless (operative word) they are being otherwise disruptive. Obviously there are especially egregious cases: "Kill All [insert group]", "I Support Child Pornography", things that are probably themselves illegal in most jurisdictions, including the US where the hardware sits. GMGtalk 11:56, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) To clarify, I was thinking that stating that one enjoys a work widely described as transphobic (What is a Woman?) would qualify as "extemely offensive material". I got the impression that community consensus isn't as strong for that being as clearly cut offensive as hypothetically speaking, stating that one enjoys a work like the The Turner Diaries which is widely described as racist. Unless the situations are different enough that a comparison would not be valid. But considering the universal code of conduct includes discrimination based on gender/gender identity or based on a contributor's race, it seems to be a fair enough comparison to note if we treat transphobia and racism differently. Or is indicating support for a work that espouses those ideas not quite the same thing? Would unilaterally removing content in both of those situations still kind of be a grey area? I was thinking if it's the latter, the phrasing at the actual policy page should make that more clear or give different advice. What counts as "extremely offensive material" exactly and when should someone consider not removing it? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:57, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- The problem is that "extremely offensive" can be subjective. Especially when it comes to culture war issues like in the case you linked, as a major tactic in the culture war is people on both sides taking extreme offense over any indication that people disagree with their viewpoints to further the polarization. Anomie⚔ 12:08, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- So if these judgements can be especially subjective, maybe the language at WP:UPNOT should be changed somehow to reflect current community norms? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- But how to you legislate subjectivity in detail, especially with creative works? As a modern counter-example, Tarantino has made a few movies that are deeply and intentionally racist, to the point of people crying on set because they were reenacting visceral scenes of slavery, like...actually in the hot sun...actually in a cotton field. Django specifically inspired a lot of controversy, but...it's also won two awards from the NAACP and one from the African-American Film Critics Association. GMGtalk 13:02, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think there has to be a line somewhere, or how else would we define disruptive edits about contentious topics that lead to blocks? I'm not sure how one would go about legislating subjectivity, but I do genuinely think that there should be something nuanced about how to approach situations like this if the general community consensus ends up being to not do what I did. It's not that great for a PAG to suggest a course of action that isn't in line with community norms – it sets people up for failure and more drama. That's why I think some sort of clarity for the language used at WP:UPNOT would be useful. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:47, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe something like an explanatory note saying that what counts as extremely offensive can be subjective? Or that it may be best to try other methods first (like what was suggested in the ANI thread)? There has to be something we could say that'd suggest a course of action more in line with community norms. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:32, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think this is probably broadly covered by the text above the table, and the general principle that the WP weapon of choice is just talking to somebody if you see an issue. Most people are generally accommodating and don't intend to give overt offense. GMGtalk 21:51, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Is it, though? I feel like reasonable people can read that text above of the table and come to the exact same conclusion as I did, especially considering the comparison to indicating support for racist ideology. I'm not completely close-minded, Pecopteris's comment is the closest I've come to feeling like there might be some way of more clearly outlining what's considered an okay lassez-faire action from any one individual editor and what isn't. I think you raise an interesting point in regards to how someone could enjoy/support a work without nessecarily endorsing its core themes...
- As an example, I grew up as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm incredibly familiar with how what is considered offensive can depend on a lot of factors. I'm genuinely curious how to reconcile differences within the community with mutual respect for all parties. Given what's stated here includes "People who identify with a certain sexual orientation or gender identity using distinct names or pronouns", I guess my question then goes into what happens when someone's beliefs contradict that? What is a Woman? is well-known for its speech in which Walsh says: "You are all child abusers. You prey upon impressionable children and indoctrinate them into your insane ideological cult, a cult which holds many fanatical views but none so deranged as the idea that boys are girls and girls are boys."[3] This response is in regards to the school board creating a policy that respected preferred gender pronouns. I suppose its possible I'm reaching too far here? Or maybe I'm not communicating what I'm thinking clearly enough? Am I really the only one seeing things this way? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:28, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- The thing about "people who identify with...pronouns", in simpler English, means "If an editor tells you that he's a man, then stop referring to him as 'she' in discussions on wiki." The community isn't asking editors to swear undying fealty to particular philosophical or religious beliefs; we're just asking editors to stop being rude to individual editors when/if they're ever told that their guesses about other editors were wrong. On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog, and on wiki, you shouldn't assume that you know more about other editors than they know about themselves. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:05, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think this is probably broadly covered by the text above the table, and the general principle that the WP weapon of choice is just talking to somebody if you see an issue. Most people are generally accommodating and don't intend to give overt offense. GMGtalk 21:51, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe something like an explanatory note saying that what counts as extremely offensive can be subjective? Or that it may be best to try other methods first (like what was suggested in the ANI thread)? There has to be something we could say that'd suggest a course of action more in line with community norms. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:32, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think there has to be a line somewhere, or how else would we define disruptive edits about contentious topics that lead to blocks? I'm not sure how one would go about legislating subjectivity, but I do genuinely think that there should be something nuanced about how to approach situations like this if the general community consensus ends up being to not do what I did. It's not that great for a PAG to suggest a course of action that isn't in line with community norms – it sets people up for failure and more drama. That's why I think some sort of clarity for the language used at WP:UPNOT would be useful. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:47, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- But how to you legislate subjectivity in detail, especially with creative works? As a modern counter-example, Tarantino has made a few movies that are deeply and intentionally racist, to the point of people crying on set because they were reenacting visceral scenes of slavery, like...actually in the hot sun...actually in a cotton field. Django specifically inspired a lot of controversy, but...it's also won two awards from the NAACP and one from the African-American Film Critics Association. GMGtalk 13:02, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- So if these judgements can be especially subjective, maybe the language at WP:UPNOT should be changed somehow to reflect current community norms? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- The problem is that "extremely offensive" can be subjective. Especially when it comes to culture war issues like in the case you linked, as a major tactic in the culture war is people on both sides taking extreme offense over any indication that people disagree with their viewpoints to further the polarization. Anomie⚔ 12:08, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- My thoughts - I actually appreciate it when an editor includes potentially offensive material on their user page. It alerts me to the potential that the editor in question may not be able to maintain a WP:NPOV on a particular subject. It is helpful to know people’s biases upfront. Blueboar (talk) 12:29, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- I second @Blueboar's remark. I would also like to add the following perspective:
- The Wikipedia project, I think, could be summarized as "bringing together a community of people from around the world to create an open-source encyclopedia that reflects, to the greatest degree possible, the sum total of reliably sourced human knowledge". Is that not a fair summary?
- With that in mind, I think our community standards should not only reflect the "norms" and socio-cultural beliefs of those who are currently active here. Instead, the community standards should create an environment such that any human being on earth that wants to contribute to this project should feel like they are valued and welcome to participate, regardless of their cultural background or views on certain subjects.
- That includes LGBTQ+ folks, like myself. It also includes folks who are religious or otherwise socially conservative and watch things like "What is a Woman?". Within reason, community standards need to allow for constructive contributions from all types of people, including those who have personal views we find deeply offensive.
- From that perspective, removing a userbox that says, essentially, "I like 'What is a Woman'" because it's "deeply offensive" makes about as much sense as a deeply religious editor removing a "pro-choice" userbox because they find it "deeply offensive". I think @GreenMeansGo is on the right track here:
- remove content that is illegal or discusses things that are illegal like CP
- remove "Kill all the X" or equally direct calls for real-world violence
- remove anything that's a personal attack against another user (like a user dedicating their userpage to direct bullying of another editor because they're trans, for example).
- Outside of that...I say let people have their views, and express them to a reasonably measured degree, as with the use of userboxes. As long as they're constructive editors. If they're trying to POV push those views into mainspace articles, we already have strong safeguards against that. I don't think this subjective piece of language, "deeply offensive", adds much of value to Wikipedia, and its use and interpretation seems to cause discord in the community that would be avoided with a more laissez-faire attitude. That's my (possibly offensive) POV on offensive POVs. Good day. Pecopteris (talk) 21:54, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
RfC (WP:UPNOT)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Is the current language at WP:UPNOT reflective of current community norms and the Universal Code of Conduct, or should it be changed in some way? In particular, the content that states: "Extremely offensive material may be removed on sight by any editor." Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:26, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- No - change or remove - First of all, thanks for opening this RfC, @Clovermoss. I think it's very good to clarify this issue. I will copy/paste most of my above comment here, with minor modifications. I look forward to reading the ensuing discussion.The Wikipedia project, I think, could be summarized as "bringing together a community of people from around the world to create an open-source encyclopedia that reflects, to the greatest degree possible, the sum total of reliably sourced human knowledge". Is that not a fair summary?With that in mind, I think our community standards should not only reflect the "norms" and widely-held socio-cultural beliefs of those who are currently active here. Instead, the community standards should create an environment such that any human being on earth that wants to contribute to this project should feel like they are valued and welcome to participate, regardless of their cultural background or views on certain subjects.That includes LGBTQ+ folks, like myself. It also includes folks who are religious or otherwise socially conservative and watch things like "What is a Woman?". Within reason, community standards need to allow for constructive contributions from all types of people, including those who have personal views we find deeply offensive.From that perspective, removing a userbox that says, essentially, "I like 'What is a Woman'" because it's "extremely offensive" makes about as much sense as a deeply religious editor removing a "pro-choice" userbox because they find it "extremely offensive".I think the following would be reasonable guidelines:
- remove content that is illegal or discusses things that are illegal like CP
- remove "Kill all the X" or equally direct calls for real-world violence
- remove anything that's a personal attack against another user (like a user dedicating their userpage to direct bullying of another editor because of their identity or beliefs, for example).
- Outside of that...I say let people have their views, and express them to a reasonably measured degree, as with the use of userboxes. As long as they're constructive editors. If they're trying to POV push those views into mainspace articles, we already have strong safeguards against that. I don't think this subjective piece of language, "extremely offensive material", adds anything of value to Wikipedia, and its use and interpretation seems to cause discord in the community that would be avoided with a more laissez-faire attitude.That's my (possibly offensive) POV on offensive POVs. Good day. Pecopteris (talk) 23:41, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
remove content that is illegal or discusses things that are illegal like CP
flatly wont work as a hard-fast rule in that wording. Cannabis is illegal at the state level where I live, and even if you live in a state where it's legal, it's still illegal on the federal level. Being gay is illegal in a third of the world. If we think that's not going to be somehow equated with child pornography...go ask one of those countries because it very much already is. GMGtalk 11:16, 21 August 2023 (UTC)- Agree. Internet piracy is illegal in most places. Porn is illegal in many countries. The Human Centipede 2 was banned in New Zealand. In 1920s America a user couldn’t talk about alcoholic beverages. On the other hand things many people find abhorrent are in fact the law in many places, like corporal punishment and genocide of gay people. Dronebogus (talk) 08:45, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes it's OK I guess. (Summoned by robot). First off I'd like to hear what practical operational problems of a large publishing concern (which is what we are) are solved by this.IMO the passage should actually be a lot stronger, like "expressions of political and cultural ideology are not allowed" or something, as "I am a (American) Republican" or "I am a (American) Democrat" adds little or nothing useful to the project and are just going to alienate some people and and attract others (and all we need is bunch of Democrats or Republicans etc. getting together to work on articles). If get a request for help or cooperation from someone who has "I like Trump" on her userpage, I'm likely to tell her to fuck right off rather than helping or cooperating. Like it or not that is how enough people roll to matter. So tell me how allowing her to put that on her userpage is helpful to the project.The Wikipedia has an ideology, and a strong one, and and a radical one in terms of history and, to a good degree, present times: the Wikipedia is an Enlightenment institution. As such we obviously favor sourcing to observable facts rather than authority, but along with that the other enlightenment values are baked in -- liberty, democracy, natural rights, toleration (but see Paradox of tolerance) and so forth, in general. I would have to say that there's been a progression in Enlightenment thought since the 17th century to cover changing situations, and the direction of this progress is pretty obvious: in favor of female equality rather than against it, in favor of racial equality rather than against it, in favor of a broader acceptance of sexuality rather than a narrower one, and so forth.All this being so, people who are against democracy, natural rights, toleration, racial equality, and so forth, just aren't welcome here. (For some purposes; I mean anyone can work here, even a Nazi, if we don't know they're a Nazi and they keep it themselves and work on articles about motor sports.) Somebody's got an "I like [some crypto-fascist politician]" statement, I want her gone, or at any rate far away from articles on politics and culture and history etc (which there's no mechanism here for that and it'd mean constant policing) Because "determining facts without fear or favor and stating them without regard to effects" is an Enlightenment value, not an authoritarian or monarchist or theocratical or fascist one.But neither do we want to allow Social Democrats but not conservatives state their beliefs. Just, we shouldn't have any of that. We should have a stronger statement IMO, but certainly not a more watered-down one. Herostratus (talk) 02:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- The operational problem I was trying to solve was whether the phrasing in that guideline reflects actual practice given that everyone has told me up to this point that I shouldn't have actually edited that person's userpage even if the end result would've likely been the removal of said content, just not from me. I thought this had a broader impact and that it'd be a good idea to clarify what someone's expected course of action actually is if it's not what the guideline says you can do. As I said before, it's setting people up for failure. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:43, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think this is a good contrast to what I said. I do agree that an outright ban on any expressions of political, social, and cultural ideology would be more reasonable than the status quo. In my view, that would include "This user is a Democrat", "this user is a Republican", "This user is conservative", "This user is LGBTQ+", "this user is pro-life/pro-choice", "this user believes that Black Lives Matter", "this user believes in the U.S. Constitution" - all of it, gone. I've seen some support for this elsewhere.
- From my POV, that would be a bit excessive. No, Wikipedia's not a social network, but it is nice to give users the opportunity to express something about who they are and what they think about the world. In moderation, it's a fun, harmless bit of community building. I have no problem with someone saying "this user is trans", "this user is pro-choice" or "this user is a Marxist", but it's not really tenable to allow those, but not allow "this user likes popular conservative movie X". Allow it all, within clear, objective guardrails like the ones I suggested, or ban it all. That's my two cents. I'm going to back off now so that I don't monopolize the conversation. Pecopteris (talk) 03:11, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'll think I'll take a step back from the conversation myself. I will be responsive to pings and direct questions, etc. But generally I've kind of made it clear what my perspective is and said more than enough. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 03:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hmmm... interesting but a little too extreme, in my view. I agree that the current phrasing is untenable, however (as what I find "extremely offensive" probably differs from what you find "extremely offensive", and so on.) Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 14:26, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think the userspace police are more of a problem for Wikipedia than the offensive userpages are. I would favour toning down or, ideally, simply deleting UPNOT.—S Marshall T/C 08:19, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes: for instance, a lengthy text encouraging violence against Jews can be removed by any editor without discussion. The wrong application here (stating that you like an anti-trans propaganda film does not rise to this level) does not make the guideline wrong. — Bilorv (talk) 09:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Change "offensive" is too open for interpretation. Model WP:UP#POLEMIC after WP:ATTACKNAME. Restrict removal right to admins – when something is bad enough to require removal, chances are it is bad enough to warrant admin attention. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 09:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- No, the current status is not acceptable and should be changed, specifically per the option offered in this RfC, i.e. the sentence "Extremely offensive material may be removed on sight by any editor" should be deleted. We should allow in users' pages a far more free expression of ideas, opinions, and stances. (And, yes, I'd never object to, and, of course, would never remove content that shows the user holding "extreme" political or social values, e.g. that they are fascists, communists, anarchists, nihilists, etc. Note, please, that these examples are what most people, per polling, consider "extreme" views. I'm not equating fascism with other ideologies.) For one, it would occasionally help the work here tremendously. E.g. I cannot understand the stubborn efforts by user XYZ to glorify some SS butcher. checking his user page I find a plethora of 88's. This simplifies things: I can try and keep that user away from, at least, fascism-related lemmas.It's instructive how messy the conversation gets when we try to censor users' pages but "not too much" and particularly not much when the pages contain material with which we disagree though not excessively, e.g. "I like Trump," but we want to censor when they contain material we find abhorrent, e.g. "I like Merloni." Take a look at the discussion between Herostratus and Pecopteris, above. Yet, freedom of expression of personal opinions is specifically about opinions we find abhorrent. The so-called paradox of tolerance is essentially a weak argument against the position adopted in the United States' Constitution Bill of Rights, a position we should at last adopt here, too, or at least get nearer - as far as users' pages is concerned.A side note: Fellow users such as Herostratus see Wikipedia is as "an enlightenment project". Ours is an post-Enlightenment era in which the values of that movement have spread and taken root in most places on Earth, in general. And Wikipedia is a project that does not promote nor allow obscurantism, dogmatism, or fanaticism. And by having Wikipedia standing in a de facto opposition to the resurgence of the latter phenomena, we can rightfully claim that the project itself acts as an instrument of human progress. Such an opposition would most emphatically be amplified through more freedom of expression, a major aspect of the ert=a of Enlightenment.But I digress. -The Gnome (talk) 11:45, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment In general, I agree with Random person no 362478479. Wikipedia is still the encyclopedia anyone may edit. If something posted on a user page is not liked, inform an admin or start a community discussion. More conflict and problems will be caused by giving any user the right to go censor another's user page than by restricting it as suggested. Wehwalt (talk) 13:47, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Keep the status quo. Editors should be able to remove anything at sight which is comparable in intensity and offense to anti-semitic rants. Changing the policy could risk our ability to do this speedily. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 15:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Agree with Random person no 362478479. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 15:36, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Status quo It is quite impossible to itemize all of the ways someone could post something abhorrent on their user page. The current language is fine, if you put something horrifying on your user page, expect it to be removed by anyone. --Jayron32 16:00, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- No. I have number of thoughts on this matter:
- User pages are not highly ranked by search engines, so the potential for widespread dissemination of offense is low.
- There is a fairly strong norm against editing someone else's user page without their permission. Having your typos and formatting issues corrected may be welcomed by some, but when the edit is motivated by a disagreement (as in, a disagreement over whether the given content is offensive or not), it's a heavy-handed intervention of the kind that only admins should be doing.
- Offensive is in the eye of the beholder. WP:NOTCENSORED covers this persuasively. UPNOT implies NOTCENSORED "relates to article pages and images" only, but (a) NOTCENSORED does not actually include the "only" part, and (b) even if it did, it shouldn't, because it's sound advice for all content across the whole project. There can be a very fine line between removing offensive content, and policing beliefs.
- UPNOT talks about bringing the project into disrepute. Policing of beliefs will most certainly bring the project into disrepute.
- It is extreme hubris to think that our current intellectual milieu is optimal, has all the morally-right answers, and can objectively identify offensive content. If we enact policies which have a chilling effect on heterodox thought, we will invite a purity spiral, we will become institutionally blind to the diversity of perspectives that exist in the world, and we will thereby fail in our mission to build an encyclopedia with a neutral point of view.
- Using userboxes to out yourself as a holder of abhorrent beliefs is probably quite helpful in attracting scrutiny and alerting the community to your potential for POV-pushing. Better to have that information out in the open.
- Nevertheless, I don't want to see user pages become some kind of "free speech zone". We don't want to see the extreme fringes of trollsome garbage. But drawing the line requires judgement, and so we must choose our judges. I'd be OK with admins having discretion to remove such content. But I think that removal should almost always be on the basis of an associated disruptive behaviour, not the content in isolation. It's not inherently disruptive to state an opinion that others find unpleasant. Block behaviour, not beliefs.
- Digression: Ideally, we would disallow all statements of allegiance and identity. Editors would be disembodied spirits unshackled from corrupt and earthly concerns. But alas, editors are human...
- In summary, and on balance: change the offending paragraph to
Material supporting disruptive behaviour may be removed on sight by any administrator
. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 16:35, 21 August 2023 (UTC)- User:Barnards.tar.gz, aside from the merits of changing UPNOT, you are deeply wrong about WP:NOTCENSORED. I truly think the majority of people who cite WP:NOTCENSORED haven't read it, and assume it means I or we can be offensive, anywhere on the project, and there ain't nothing you can or should do about it. But it is about Wikipedia articles, about readers, not users, and is about meeting our encyclopaedic purpose. Articles and readers are each mentioned three times, editors and user pages not once. Everyone who reads (or cites) WP:NOTCENSORED should also read the linked guideline WP:GRATUITOUS which contains the important point that
"Offensive material should be used only if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available.
You will see there that offensive material has to meet a bar where editors agree it is necessary for the encyclopaedic purpose of the article. - A user page stating that the person holds particular beliefs or hates particular things or even people, say, has zero encyclopaedic purpose. User pages serve a function towards other users in supporting our community, but not our article content, and they are not aimed at readers and not part of our mission to educate readers. If they are helping the community get along with each other and understand each other then that's great. If they cause hostility and make some people feel unwelcome on the project, then not so great. It is entirely compatible with WP:NOTCENSORED that the community can decide for itself what is suitable for user pages, our guideline and policy pages, and other forums like the village pump. For example WP:NOTCENSORED isn't illustrated with a giant penis, even if some of our less thoughtful editors might argue that would get (their interpretation of) the point across succinctly. -- Colin°Talk 08:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Please see clause (b) of that bullet point where I hoped I’d made it clear that even if you read NOTCENSORED as applying strictly only to articles, the underlying reasons why we choose not to censor are also useful in evaluating user page content. There are various reasons why we have the NOTCENSORED policy, such as:- we don’t want to endorse a particular POV by censoring its anti-POV, we don’t want to litigate what is or isn’t offensive to various different competing groups, we don’t want to become an echo chamber... Basically all the reasons coming out in this thread. That’s why I cited NOTCENSORED. For all the same reasons we give a long leash to potentially-offensive article content, we should give a long leash to potentially-offensive user content.
- … and yet not an infinitely long leash. I’m sure you will have noticed that my recommendation doesn’t endorse free speech maximalism. I agree with GRATUITOUS. I think gratuitous use of potentially-offensive material on user pages would constitute the kind of behavioural issue that should trigger admin intervention. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 09:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well, your point b is really saying that even if I (Barnards.tar.gz) am wrong about NOTCENSORED applying to more than just articles (because, you say it doesn't itself explicitly state that it only applies to articles) then it should. But there are very important reasons why we restrict some issues to articles. We require NPOV in our articles but not our sources and not our editors. We permit editors to have a POV, whether explicitly stated in conversation or on user pages and boxes, or whether bleedin' obvious from their edit pattern. Of course, we don't want that POV shouted all the time, but we certainly don't require editors to be neutral in their writing on talk pages, for example. For many topics, to not have formed an opinion would indicate a lack of familiarity and knowledge of the topic. So concerns about NPOV dot not apply, though it is interesting that you see censorship of an anti-POV as problematic wrt "endorsing a particular POV" but don't seem to see a problem with the original POV declaration that someone wanted to remove. Surely if one took the view that editors must not endorse any POV at all, that would apply to declaring a view just as much as removing such a declaration. In practice, we do allow limited declarations of POV and declarations of identity.
- The vast majority of user pages document things solely concerned with Wikipedia. The limited number of users who declare things about themselves are either clearly helpful to the project (what languages someone knows, if they have developer skills, etc) or mundane (where they live or grew up or were educated). Some concern identity and some people are hostile to those identities (e.g, LGBT, or a religion). I think on a collaborative project, it is ok to declare one's identity but not ok to declare one is hostile to other identities. Anyway, your final point, about exercising judgement about what we allow or not allow, is something we can agree on (though I don't share your opinion about admins). Really, NOTCENSORED (and NPOV and V and OR) are entirely irrelevant to whatever the community thinks is appropriate on user pages. That's why we are having this debate. -- Colin°Talk 10:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
there are very important reasons why we restrict some issues to articles
I agree for some issues, but not for all issues. As you point out, NPOV isn't something we should try to enforce on User pages or Talk pages. But I view NOTCENSORED as an example of a policy whose spirit does have utility outside of article space, even if it's not intended to be a binding policy on those spaces. And the spirit tells us that trying to litigate what is or isn't offensive is a minefield. In article space, it risks POV issues. In user space, it risks the chilling effect I mentioned. I just don't believe anyone who claims that distinguishing offensive from acceptable is easy, and when decisions aren't easy we often look to admins to take the lead. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 12:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)- Just because something's hard (a minefield you claim) doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. NOTCENSORED doesn't exist because deciding what's offensive couldn't be achieved by a community reaching consensus, but because, in article space, we regard encyclopaedic value higher than the bar that someone somewhere is offended. Wikipedia:Offensive material exists because some material will be regarded as (potentially) offensive by reasonable people, so it isn't like we say "deciding what's offensive is too hard". We weigh the two and may decide that there's multiple other ways to achieve our mission without offence or shock. The issue that seemed to spark this discussion was that one user felt the need to tell other users what they think about trans women not being women, or something of that ilk, which I don't think anyone here would think is suitable for this project vs Twitter. It's a fairly classic "I want to declare my contentious politics" mistake. Questions being asked are whether to give examples or a list and how to go about it (e.g., be bold, ask on a forum page, delegate to admins, etc). The problem with citing NOTCENSORED in these discussions, is that it is a debate terminating move (even if you do later say you think we should exercise judgement). Even if you think you are referencing NOTCENSORED in a nuanced way, be aware that to many it is a nuclear weapon to silence any opposing view. People will skim your post and go away thinking Barnards.tar.gz claims we can't remove offensive material from user pages because NOTCENSORED, which I don't think is your point. Citing it here, even if you can see some similarities, is not IMO helpful. -- Colin°Talk 19:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- User:Barnards.tar.gz, aside from the merits of changing UPNOT, you are deeply wrong about WP:NOTCENSORED. I truly think the majority of people who cite WP:NOTCENSORED haven't read it, and assume it means I or we can be offensive, anywhere on the project, and there ain't nothing you can or should do about it. But it is about Wikipedia articles, about readers, not users, and is about meeting our encyclopaedic purpose. Articles and readers are each mentioned three times, editors and user pages not once. Everyone who reads (or cites) WP:NOTCENSORED should also read the linked guideline WP:GRATUITOUS which contains the important point that
- No change. It's common sense to allow anyone to remove content that's extremely offensive person, over and above ordinary material likely to cause some degree of offense. It's highly disruptive and puts us into disrepute, akin to vandalism, which is also removed as soon as possible. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 16:52, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- No change - I think the key word that was missed in the nominator's interaction was "extremely". Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:14, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Wrong question What are the "community norms"? Should the UCoC really be twisted so far as to apply to the situation that led to this RFC? The real issue behind this RFC seems to rest on those questions, not on the content of WP:UPNOT. The discussions at ANI and the pre-RFC section above both seem to have disagreed that "community norms" would support the user box in question being considered "extremely offensive" to fall under WP:UPNOT, nor has there been much agreement to the idea of bending the UCoC to that extent.As for the question asked, both the "extremely offensive" part called out and the part about "Very divisive or offensive material" in the table seem open to this sort of issue, and seems to come up time and time again when people with one viewpoint (and usually a belief in the paradox of tolerance) see a userbox supporting the opposing viewpoint. Anomie⚔ 19:38, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Status quo ± clarification sentence: I would avoid editing other people’s user pages but some things are so offensive they should not be on Wikipedia. While "offensive" may be subjective, we already accept that some things will be removed for that reason. WP:CFRD states that "grossly offensive" edits may be redacted. Perhaps we should have a clarification sentence regarding what sort of material can be summarily deleted by any editor (as opposed to needing input from an admin or wider consensus, or asking the author to remove it themselves). I would suggest that if an editor expects that the material is so offensive the edits could be redacted then they should feel able to delete it. Mgp28 (talk) 21:36, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- No change - However if material is removed that is not "extremely offensive" then the change should be reverted and remover warned, or dealt with appropriately. Our real issue is to determine what "extremely" means. in our case example, liking a film is not offensive, even if content of the film offends some people. So that should not be removed based on that rule. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- How to avoid different interpretations is that we need a generally accepted essay on what "extremely offensive" means. We need to allow diverse people here, and they should be allowed to say they support various ideas or things that offend other people in order to show the point of view they are coming from. Now when it comes to offense, it is in the eye of the beholder, so often these people are choosing to be offended for political purposes. Content should not be removed because of this opinion. However if a user page is designed to cause offense, that is when it should be edited. Also deliberately promoting the material or ideas rather than a simple infobox may be pushing to far. On the topic of shat should be acceptable, anything that has been in political debate anytime in the last 50 years or so should be acceptable whatever side of opinion the user expresses. This applies particularly to current political debates and controversies. For example in our case here, people should be able to express support or opposition to transgenderism by an infobox or userpage statement. Behavioral issues by users are different, and not only by what they put in their userpage. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:56, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Quick comment: I don't think it's necessary to mention the Universal Code of Conduct in this RFC. That could potentially make a simple question more complicated. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:07, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. jp×g 07:52, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- My thinking in including it came from an extension of the argument about excluding stuff that was illegal where our servers were hosted. Because the WMF also kind of has a role? I get that the Universal Code of Conduct is controversial but the way I understand it the WMF can decide to overrule community consensus if it goes against it. I thought that anything that might be relevant should be brought into the discussion? Anyways, I'm kind of focused on other things at the moment. One of my relatives died yesterday so I was hoping to tie any loose ends before my wikibreak. I don't know how this is going to proceed from here but if anyone has questions or concerns, you can just ask at my talk page and I'll get back to you eventually. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. jp×g 07:52, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but it should be made even stronger. Wikipedia is not a social media platform, and users do not own their userpages. The inclusion of anything on Wikipedia should be contingent on whether it benefits the encyclopedia. Contentious content on userpages does not benefit the encyclopedia, but it does harm the collaborative environment that we need, and it's something that should be considered from the perspective of editor retention. There's a reason why they say you shouldn't talk about politics or religion at the dinner table: it invites conflict and creates bad blood. If you want to talk about these things online, good for you. Go start a blog. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, and I agree with the comment just above mine. I missed the ANI that prompted this as I was on a short holiday, but the relevant editor had previously been final-warned by me for transphobic language in edit summaries (relevant edit my warning), something which appears to have been missed in that discussion. Black Kite (talk) 08:19, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Current language seems fine to me. People should just not assume that anything potentially offensive is "extremely offensive". —Kusma (talk) 10:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Not out of compliance, but modify language - I like the suggestion in discussion above that a second sentence should be added highlighting "what is "extremely offensive" can be highly subjective and further complicated by the intent of the editor."
- Above added by Nosebagbear. -The Gnome (talk) 14:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Question: Could we get a definition of "contentious material", please, from those who support its deletion from users' pages? And, while we're at it, could we also have, finally, some definition of "extremely offensive"? I put it to y'all that starting with that is "offensive" first of all would be the proper place to start a process, before any RfC. -The Gnome (talk) 14:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I generally support the current phrasing (I don't think we need some kind of massive overhaul), but I agree that we need to define extremely offensive. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 14:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I would personally describe "extremely offensive" as endorsing or glorifying extremism (think stuff like Nazism), terrorism, advocates for content or activities that is illegal or deemed dangerous in most countries (e.g. spreading of malware), discriminates people based on someone's demographical factors or beliefs (race, gender, sexuality, age, religion, etc.) and/or harasses other fellow editors (e.g. a list of baseless accusations about stuff that Editor XYZ did wrong, a list of "Editors I do not like", etc.) — Prodraxis {talk • contribs} (she/her) 15:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Prodraxis For reference, there are currently userboxes listed at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Politics that express support for terrorist organizations, violence and war, dislike of specific nations and nationalities, every variety of communism, and every dictator you can think of besides Hitler. All of these would fall under your definition. Many of them adorn the userpages of prominent members of the community. Would you hold that all of these should be considered "extremely offensive"? (I say yes, throw the lot out and scrutinize anyone using them.) And that's before we get into userboxes supporting the death penalty and abortion, both of which a sizeable portion of the population would consider to be violence. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- So your proposing to remove anything that could possible be viewed as controversial in any way? Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 23:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- My opinion is a few comments up, but it applies even more to advocacy of hate, oppression, or violence. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- So your proposing to remove anything that could possible be viewed as controversial in any way? Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 23:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Prodraxis For reference, there are currently userboxes listed at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Politics that express support for terrorist organizations, violence and war, dislike of specific nations and nationalities, every variety of communism, and every dictator you can think of besides Hitler. All of these would fall under your definition. Many of them adorn the userpages of prominent members of the community. Would you hold that all of these should be considered "extremely offensive"? (I say yes, throw the lot out and scrutinize anyone using them.) And that's before we get into userboxes supporting the death penalty and abortion, both of which a sizeable portion of the population would consider to be violence. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I would personally describe "extremely offensive" as endorsing or glorifying extremism (think stuff like Nazism), terrorism, advocates for content or activities that is illegal or deemed dangerous in most countries (e.g. spreading of malware), discriminates people based on someone's demographical factors or beliefs (race, gender, sexuality, age, religion, etc.) and/or harasses other fellow editors (e.g. a list of baseless accusations about stuff that Editor XYZ did wrong, a list of "Editors I do not like", etc.) — Prodraxis {talk • contribs} (she/her) 15:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'd say that an editor with a history of making edits like this and this using their userpage to support a work like this is intentionally being inflammatory. I think it's reasonable to find someone invalidating an entire group of people's existence (transgender people in this instance) contentious and extremely offensive. If we were talking about someone who said antisemitic things and had "I enjoy reading Mein Kampf" on their userpage, why would the problem be another editor removing said content because they find it offensive? I've never started a Wikipedia-policy RfC before, I just wanted to make sure that the way our guideline is phrased actually reflects practice. Because everybody at ANI says it should have been removed, just not by me. So if it's not true that any editor can act on what's at UPNOT, that should be changed. I'm trying to let all this go but the truth is I'm having such a hard time doing so. I've cried and lost sleep over this. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @Clovermoss. I want you to know that, although I disagree with the initial action you took (removing the userbox), I think you had a very clear rationale for doing so, one that I can empathize with, and I think that your behavior subsequent to that has been exemplary and worthy of respect. You've done everything the way you should have - from asking for more feedback from the AN, to coming to the village pump and opening this RFC. I know that being at the center of a debate like this can be very stressful, and it can feel like you are being scrutinized and harshly judged. I want you to know that nobody here is scrutinizing or judging you - I think everyone here would agree that you are acting in good faith, and we need more people with your attitude towards dispute resolution, instead of people that want to yell and argue. These sorts of conversations are normal - please try not to take it personally - you've done the right thing by creating an RFC and I think everyone here respects you for it.
- I'll add one general thought: so far, I've noticed that the "no/change" votes have consisted of multiple complex sentences and in many cases, multiple paragraphs of thought and elucidation. The "yes/status quo" votes are almost all very short, saying something to the effect of "no change, this is common sense." I think the fact that this RFC exists is evidence that it's not common sense.
- I still maintain the view that continuing with the status quo will create more and more discordant situations within the community, like this one. Letting users apply "common sense" to understanding the term "extremely offensive" will almost certainly lead to the biases of the editor community being reflected in a purity spiral, the result of which will be a much more ideologically insular and less diverse community of editors. I see that I am not alone in this concern.
- A request to those who have voted 'yes/status quo'
- To those who have voted to keep the status quo - I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on the above - namely, how we can avoid situations like this while maintaining the current recommendation to remove "extremely offensive content", and how we can make sure that we don't end up in a situation where every userbox someone dislikes gets removed. I still think the best way to avoid these scenarios is to either adopt a laissez faire attitude towards userpages, with some very basic guardrails, or to institute an absolute ban on all expressions of identity and belief in userpages, including expressions that many users may find innocuous. I see maintaining the status quo as the worst course of action, but I'm open minded, and I'd like to hear some more details from the "status quo" voters regarding the concerns raised by the "no/change" voters. Pecopteris (talk) 21:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Firstly I'd like to add how sorry I am to read how this is affecting Clovermoss. I haven't perceived comments here as critical of your actions and I hope you will come to feel that way too. But I certainly appreciate that it must be horrible to feel you are at the centre of this debate.
- Regarding @Pecopteris:'s question:
- I wouldn't personally object to a more restrictive policy on user boxes. But many people have many of them. I assume they are attached to them and that it would be difficult to get consensus to do away with them. And if we try to prohibit only some of them then we come back to the question of deciding where offensive becomes unacceptably offensive.
- The opposite option of having virtually no rules just seems dangerous.
- I hadn't considered the example above where a user box is interpreted in the context of other edits. My interpretation of the line in UPNOT was that it referred to statements that would be independently offensive when read in isolation. I made reference to WP:CFRD's use of "grossly offensive" as I feel that is the sort of area where the threshold for unilateral action could reasonably be found. If you see something that maybe should be redacted then I think you should feel free to delete it. If something is objectionable but less urgent then other channels, such as admin involvement, would be more appropriate.
- The exact threshold of "extremely offensive" may shift over time. I think that's OK. Too precise a rule and we risk spawning a raft of Wikilawyers with carefully calibrated offensiveness that we struggle to get rid of.
- So after all this, I still feel that the sentence "Extremely offensive material may be removed on sight by any editor" is OK. But I increasingly think that we need to add some further clarification so that people can be more confident that they are acting appropriately. Mgp28 (talk) 22:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Clovermoss, I'm sorry you're having a hard time. There is a perfectly good rationale behind the RfC, and no-one is criticizing your actions. Maybe take a step back for a few days if you're feeling stressed– that's what I usually do. Cheers, Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 22:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I was trying to step back. I realized pretty much at the start of the RfC that this was affecting me strongly, which is why I said I'd take a step back. I did, somewhat, but curiousity and strong convictions prompted me to not do so completely. But it is probably for the best if I do step back further. Thanks for caring about me. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I generally support the current phrasing (I don't think we need some kind of massive overhaul), but I agree that we need to define extremely offensive. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 14:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- No change, this is consistent with our community norm that extremely offensive material can be removed, collapsed, revdeled, or otherwise hidden from anywhere on wikipedia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- No change, and let me suggest that trying to provide a comprehensive list of what counts as extremely offensive is not such a good idea, even if your hope is that people will learn not to do those things from the list you make. There are relatively few sustained disputes on this point. I remember one of them over a user who wanted to say "This user is homophobic", and there has been an infamous userbox declaring "respect" for a certain dictator, but generally the rule is that if your content would cause good editors to feel like they don't belong because of characteristics named under the non-discrimination statements, then it should be removed, and, as always – as is absolutely routine in a collaborative project – if it's a borderline case, or you're not certain, then ask for help. Anyone who is concerned that "extreme" isn't extreme enough for them is invited to put typical hateful phrases into the search box and see what's been tolerated in userspace so far. Start with something simple like "I hate women", which gives me two hits in the userspace today. Stop when you've gotten it all cleaned up or are disgusted with humanity, whichever comes first. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- First choice leave it alone: Most people can tell the difference between “extremely offensive” material and merely disagreeable or personally offensive ideologies. Second choice, remove the sentence outright: the sort of content that should be removed should almost go without saying, and without that sentence, most editors should generally agree that cases of illegal content should be removed, and doing so unilaterally is fine (surely there’s policy elsewhere that covers illegal or targeted harassment etc?). Third choice, spend the next month and a half coming up with a watertight categorical system to prevent illegal content, content that condones illegal behaviours, calls to action, personal attacks, etc. I understand Herostratus’s motivation on limiting political content, but that really feels pretty illiberal as its own action (and I can’t see how that could be practically enforced—am I allowed to mention my race, my gender? Life is political, and as you’ve pointed out, so is Wikipedia). Honestly I just can’t see this as a problem… unless you personally have been attempting to remove conservative literature from userpages, Clovermoss? — HTGS (talk) 22:34, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- The origin-story of this RfC is that Clovermoss unilaterally removed a userbox from another editor's userpage that said, essentially, "this user likes the movie "What is a Woman?". Clover wisely sought feedback on their decision, which they believed to be a common-sense enforcement of the "extremely offensive content" policy. They found that there was much support for their decision, but far from unanimous consent that expressing a fondness for that film is "extremely offensive", and there was some limited concern that the "extremely offensive content" phrase could be taken as an invitation to invasively police and nitpick at userpages on political grounds. That's how we got here. I don't mean to speak for Clover, but I think the above is important context for this debate, since @HTGS specifically asked. Pecopteris (talk) 23:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, so don't change. For starters - this policy has been enforced for over fifteen years without issue. Are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater over this one incident with the movie? I agree that "Extremely offensive" is subjective. Many things on Wikipedia are subjective - "significant coverage", for example. One of Wikipedia's founding principles is that rules are bendy. Subjectivity is not a bad thing. casualdejekyll 00:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with all of this. But as part of that, highlighting that it is subjective might ease the difficulties. Nosebagbear (talk) 08:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment- There are two connected, but distinct questions here: 1) Should some user page content be considered so offensive that it should be removed? and 2) If so, who should remove it?
- My answer to the first question is: Yes. However, we need to set that bar fairly high.
- My answer to the second question is: it should be an admin action. Further, I would require two admins to discuss and agree on that removal. This would ensure that the removal isn’t done by a) someone who is overly sensitive, or b) someone who has a cultural/political axe to grind. Blueboar (talk) 00:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- No change Having lived through the userbox wars, I think the current guideline has worked reasonably well for years. Personally, I pruned a number of userboxes off my user page during that period, and since have avoided any I think might be at all controversial. I do think that some leeway in what may be expressed on user pages should be allowed, but there should be limits. - Donald Albury 12:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- No change “extremely offense” is material that would constitute vandalism anywhere else, namely purely gratuitous shock content and unambiguous hate speech. Any other change would just be pushing a minority opinion on “userpages are a free speech platform” over “not a social media site” instead of forming a case-by-case consensus. Dronebogus (talk) 08:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Pecopteris put it well in comment above @23:41, 20 August. Alsee (talk) 20:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, I was just wondering if everyone agreed with Snow Rise's assessment over at the now reopened ANI thread? There's a lot there so I suggest taking a look at everything for context, but in particular I was wondering if everyone agrees that
Obviously no one should be going around directly antagonizing trans editors about their stated gender identities; that I believe should and would be treated as disruptive by this community. But merely having (or expressing) the abstract belief that a transwoman or transman is not a "real" woman or man is not considered by itself to be a WP:PA, WP:DISRUPTION, or other type of sanctionable offense, at this time. And if the response to CM's RfC is any indication, that's not likely to change any time soon.
is an accurate summarization of the consensus at this RfC so far? I'm worried I'm too involved in all this to think clearly, especially given recent events in my life. But it doesn't feel quite right to speak for everyone else in the thread even if I'm not doing my best, so I figured it'd be useful. Maybe Novem Linguae is right and this RfC is unnecessary. Thoughts? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:23, 26 August 2023 (UTC)- I would disagree with the second part of the statement. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 01:30, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Wow that "reopen" has kicked off a mess, the WP:RGW activists are out in force there. And I'm also not at all surprised that you're again asking a misleading question trying to fish for support for your viewpoint. I think Snow Rise's statement is supported by the comments in this RFC: the community is indeed divided on whether expressing an abstract viewpoint should be seen as an attack on particular individuals, and this RFC is no exception. I wouldn't characterize it as "an accurate summarization of the consensus at this RfC" since the RFC is asking an entirely different question and a summarization should address that and other direct points people have been making here rather than trying to analyze sentiment on a related but not directly raised question. Anomie⚔ 13:16, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Whether it's an accurate assessment of this RFC is, almost, secondary to that,
But merely having (or expressing) the abstract belief that a transwoman or transman is not a "real" woman or man is not considered by itself to be a WP:PA, WP:DISRUPTION, or other type of sanctionable offense, at this time,
is blatantly wrong, contrary to the TOS, and not in step with how often editors rightly get blocked for obvious transphobic statements. I'm rather shocked about Snow Rise's statement, to be frank. Capeo (talk) 17:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC)- Well, can you point us to somewhere, anywhere, that expressing this belief has been codified by the community as disruption or a PA? A policy, a consensus discussion in a centralized community space? Can you give a diff to a community sanction discussion where an editor was blocked merely for expressing
"the abstract belief that a transwoman or transman is not a 'real' woman or man"
? Because I've been following this issue for a while and I have seen no such conclusion by the community at large anywhere on this project, as yet, and not for lack of observing. You're quite correct that editors have been sanctioned for sharing transphobic views, but that broad description of conduct covers a lot of territory, including direct harassment and bigotry. But I'm unaware of so much as a single case where the community has endorsed the perspective that such an abstract belief, absent more direct harassment, disruption, or other violations of policy, makes a person unfit for this community or to contribute to the project.This RfC is the closest thing we have had to testing this proposition. Nominally it is about whether or not the policy should be updated to reflect the feedback that Clovermoss got in the original ANI thread--which uniformly said that she should not have been editing another community members user page, but that she was unlikely to face blow back for doing it once, in those circumstances. But I think it's quite clear that her deeper motivation for broaching this subject as she did was not affect any change to the specific procedural language of how to handle UPNOT violations, but rather to send up a flare in a highly public space to try to find support for her (understandable) belief that the specific content in the case that brought her to ANI should be regarded as "highly objectionable" by default. That is why a number of respondents have commented about the peculiar framing and their difficulty in knowing how to respond to the prompt.So regardless of what the ostensible question of this RfC is, and the manner in which respondents have had to channel their !votes as a consequence, this was clearly intended as a referendum on whether the very specific conduct of expressing the subjective belief that transmen and trasnwomen are not "real" men or women constitutes a sanctionable activity, even when it is not directed at specific individuals. And I feel most of the respondents have treated it accordingly. And what I see (with very mixed feelings, let me assure you), is what I have always seen in the last couple of years whenever this issue has come up in the case of an individual user's conduct: most community members feel that banning any expression of such an abstract belief is a bridge too far. And this is exactly what I warned Clovermoss to expect from perspectives at this time, and is one of the reasons I rather wish the matter had not been raised prematurely and in this hasty fashion, just because she didn't like being told at ANI (again, uniformly, and including feedback from major trans issues advocates on the project) that she does not have the right to unilaterally delete such expressions. I think her approach here is only going to harden perspectives further and actually set back the progress of policy in this area, if I am blunt. I know her heart was in the right place, and as she has disclosed, this is apparently a raw nerve for her right now, but honestly, this was an ill-calculated, ill-timed, ill-prepared, and ill-formulated approach.As for the fact that some are confused (or even "shocked") that consensus would be summarized thus, I feel what is very clearly happening here is that a lot of people are making the assumption that because they find this kind of opinion highly objectionable, that of course the community would find that a statement of such a belief is per se disruptive and makes the person sharing that view incompatible with contributing to this project. On one level, I sympathize with that impulse: I too find such views ill-informed and regressive.But putting aside the assessment of whether or not the community should adopt such a view, I've been following the on-project discussions around this issue for some years now, and as a purely descriptive matter, I can tell you that any time such a standard has been suggested (again, always before CM's proposal it was in the case of individual behavioural discussions), there has been significantly more opposition to such a straight-forward proposition than there has been support. And I believe this ratio is currently being replicated in this RfC.So Capeo, if you have counter-examples of people being sanctioned merely for expressing a subjective belief of skepticism about trans self-identity, I would be more than happy to incorporate them into my read of community feedback on this issue. But there's a big difference between you and I agreeing that a given statement of belief is backwards and ignorant and the community having completely proscribed it as a view incompatible with activity on this project, as a matter of policy. SnowRise let's rap 19:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well, can you point us to somewhere, anywhere, that expressing this belief has been codified by the community as disruption or a PA? A policy, a consensus discussion in a centralized community space? Can you give a diff to a community sanction discussion where an editor was blocked merely for expressing
- Comment (very minor quibble) This RFC is strangely worded, such that an answer in the affirmative actually opposes the RFC. I don’t think any editors have been confused by this, but it caught me off guard as a lurker. Mach61 (talk) 01:38, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- No Change While I would like the section to be more detailed than it currently is, I know that would be difficult to accomplish and get consensus on. And considering some of the statements for change (ie removal) above includes editors arguing for allowing any sort of offensive content, I'm fine with keeping with status quo. Because I don't want such editors or anyone else to be pushing abusive statements on their user pages. SilverserenC 01:49, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Ambivalent. On the one hand, WP:MALVOLIO. On the other hand, if something really is extremely offensive, go ahead and revert it. On the third hand, if you do that, you might get reverted. And on the fourth hand, a situation like that will probably end up being dealt with via administrator action. All of that was my roundabout way of saying that I don't think that there is any kind of language that can legislate this, and the best way to deal with a truly hurtful situation is to bring the editor who is at fault to the appropriate noticeboard. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:43, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Assuming that the extremely offensive content is the kind of stuff that's appropriate for a noticeboard in the first place. Some of the "extremely offensive" user page content that I've personally seen includes:
- claiming that an editor is a child rapist,
- a list of the sexual acts the poster wants to perpetrate on the editor,
- fake offers to engage in sexual acts with the reader, and
- a description of how the poster plans to torture and kill the editor.
- The work a few years back that makes it hard for vandals to edit other people's userpages was a good idea, but it doesn't solve everything, and it isn't retroactive. When these kinds of things come up, it's not necessarily a good idea to encourage everyone to read and discuss them. It's often a better idea to revert it and then e-mail a friendly admin or Wikipedia:Oversight to make it disappear. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing, I think everyone would agree that it's not a good idea to amplify the sort of content you've mentioned. Posts soliciting sex or engaging in the vile and illegal subjects you've listed should certainly be removed first, and discussed with an administrator after the fact. The issue seems to be that some editors have, in good faith, taken "extremely offensive" to mean something much broader than what you've outlined.
- I think the consensus here so far is that
- 1) there's no current need to change the language at WP:UPNOT.
- 2) the label of "extremely offensive", while left to the discretion of editors, should be applied sparingly, and editors probably shouldn't be citing UPNOT as a license to remove passing remarks about major political and social issues of the day from the userpages of other editors.
- 3) @Clovermoss acted in good faith here, and followed the letter of UPNOT, but slightly missed the mark in terms of the unwritten spirit behind the words "extremely offensive".
- Is that a fair summary of the consensus of the discussion as it stands currently? If anyone does not think so, please summarize the state of the discussion as you see it. Pecopteris (talk) 20:55, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps the difficulty is that what's "extremely" offensive (rather than "average-ly" offensive) is going to depend on the (sub)culture you're in. Or perhaps the difficulty is a sort of rhetorical inflation, so that "extremely" no longer carries a meaning. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- Assuming that the extremely offensive content is the kind of stuff that's appropriate for a noticeboard in the first place. Some of the "extremely offensive" user page content that I've personally seen includes:
- No change - This seems in line with WP:CIVILITY and community norms (for example, the deletion of certain offensive user boxes). Having extremely offensive material on your user page does not contribute to building an encyclopedia. Quite the opposite. Nosferattus (talk) 00:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Probably needs a rewrite TBD - I think that what some of the people who don't see the problem may not understand is that saying a trans woman is not a "real" woman is only one step away from saying that she is not a "real person" and dehumanization is a slippery slope. However. The Streisand effect is also at work here. I had never heard of this movie. I sometimes look at userboxes, but not often and not in detail. I got rid if mine a few years ago. I would question the THEREness of someone who would go out of their way to proclaim that they like a dehumanizing movie (I guess that is what it is?) but probably only to the extent of avoiding them if possible. As the joke goes, it isn't exhibitionism if you have to stand on a ladder and use binoculars to see it. There is enough dysfunction and POV pushing that is actually interfering with the creation of content without attempting to regulate self-expression, and btw fwiw I say this as an editor who identifies as "they" by choice and not default. I would say the policy could likely use a rewrite, but I think that there are bigger issues on wikipedia let alone in the world than whether someone chooses to do the wikipedia equivalent of wearing a Trump hat Elinruby (talk) 02:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Keep and add clarification. I think it should stay, but the other editors here are correct that "extremely offensive" is poorly defined. I don't think the original userbox which led to this RfC (enjoying a film which itself expresses a very strong POV) falls under the scope of "extremely offensive", but I can't blame Clovermoss for thinking that it did. Obviously we cannot define every way that a statement could be extremely offensive, but we could add a sentence along the lines of
Examples of extremely offensive statements include ethnic slurs, calls for violence, and sexualization of children
. If I was named BDFL of Wikipedia, I'd get rid of all userboxes that express pro- or anti- opinions on political, social, religious, nationalistic or ideological issues since Wikipedia isn't about that. But since I do not have that power, as long as the current consensus is that such statements are allowed then we should have a narrowly-defined policy for when to unilaterally remove them. The WordsmithTalk to me 21:01, 31 August 2023 (UTC)- "Calls for violence" is broader than you might initially expect. What about, say, "Ukraine shouldn't surrender"? That's a call for violence in the sense that it's a call to continue a war. Loki (talk) 23:30, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- For that matter some above and in the ANI discussion have stated that they consider "transphobia" (under their own subjective definition, of course) to be equal to the "racist ideology" already used as an example in the guideline, so they'd probably feel the same about a comparison with "ethnic slurs". Anomie⚔ 00:16, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- I think commentary on geopolitical conflicts don't really fall under "calls for violence", though personally I don't think they really belong on Wikipedia either. My wording was just an example, I'm open to other phrasing. Immediate removal without discussion should be reserved only for cases where the content would be near-universally condemned, such as "X group should be executed". @Anomie: There are certainly transphobic things that would fall under the banner of "extreme". Any userbox endorsing violence against them or using language like that found in LGBT slang#Slurs 2 should be summarily removed (and probably brought to a noticeboard). I just don't think that if something could subjectively be considered transphobic, it automatically counts as extreme. The WordsmithTalk to me 17:50, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- "Calls for violence" is broader than you might initially expect. What about, say, "Ukraine shouldn't surrender"? That's a call for violence in the sense that it's a call to continue a war. Loki (talk) 23:30, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, keep. The general idea of this language is very good and I definitely don't want to get rid of it in spirit. I agree that it could maybe use some clarification, but I don't know what particular clarification would be appropriate (as I pointed out above, seemingly obvious clauses can be pretty fraught in practice) and I'm not entirely confident that it's even possible to word such a clarification well. Loki (talk) 23:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- In summary no change. This is a very open question, so this isn't an absolute comment on all potential changes, but to the question of whether to simply reopen the guideline I don't see great benefit. This is an inherently subjective topic, and the premise is helpful in spirit but simply impossible to nail down in any sort of specific way. en.wiki will not solve the question of acceptable speech which has dogged societies for time immemorial. Keeping vague in-spirit wording fits the en.wiki approach of a common law style individual judgment backed up by community discussion quite well. CMD (talk) 03:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
RfC: Automatically semi-protect Today's Featured Article
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should WP:SEMI be amended to add something to the effect of "Today's Featured Article (TFA) is always semi-protected from the day before it is featured on the Main Page through the day after.
"? – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 01:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Rationale: This is a change that's already been brought into effect on most days thanks to the valiant efforts of Courcelles, and one that is long overdue. While in the early days of Wikipedia people might not have known that it was something any old schmuck could edit, these days it's such a cultural mainstay that the benefits of letting our "parlor" be accessible and tweakable by all is far outweighed by the costs of letting vandals replace our most visible page with "poop shid fard xD". I understand that the FAC crowd can run into issues of stodgy Toryism and that can possibly motivate opposers, but the months-long "trial run" of Courcelles already semi-protecting TFAs a day in advance has caused no complaints and no major issues, and saved many headaches from vandal-reverters; those good-faith editors who are needed to mildly tweak articles that have already undergone rigorous review can wait until they become confirmed.
All in all, this is something that should have been done years ago and has already has local consensus at TFA. Hopefully the fire has gone out of this decades-long debate, but in any case I feel like it is high time to implement this change. (Also, any specific details like how long it should be protected outside of its Featured Day is fine; I don't want the best to be the enemy of the good here.) – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 21:36, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Some relevant links. Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/TFA Protector Bot 3, prior RFC for a trial, and some analysis of that trial. Courcelles (talk) 21:41, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support as proposer. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 21:36, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support per User:TFA Protector Bot/Semi-protection trial, as I discussed at WT:TFA. Some prominent examples there:
- Yusuf I of Granada received four oversighted edits in four minutes before being semiprotected
- Streets (song) received six revdelled edits in one minute before being semiprotected
- Rachel Dyer (semiprotected for the second half of its TFA period) received three oversighted edits and 14 generic vandalism edits in its unprotected period
- Between every not-automatically-semiprotected article in the experiment, there were thirty not-reverted-that-day edits by IPs and non-autoconfirmed editors, of which six were removing vandalism (this is a quick hand count, and the page isn't easily structured for one, so this might be off) -- meaning the net of "not directly caused by vandalism" IP edits productive enough not to be reverted the same day was below the number of pre-semi vandal edits in just these three articles
- I think the results of that experiment alone make a clear case for the benefit to the project and the relative lack of collateral damage. This is just treating edits by their raw 'outcomes' -- other specific complaints, such as the number of complaints in the WT:TFA thread about graphic sexual vandalism in particular, strengthen the case. Vaticidalprophet 21:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- In fact this recent me doing it manually started because hardcore porn stayed in a TFA for too long. Courcelles (talk) 21:53, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm supporting anyway, but two of your three examples fail to prove your point - if the vandal was willing to game autoconfirmed to post more oversightable/revdelable edits after manual semi-protection was applied and force the TFA to be ECP-ed then the outcome would not have been very different had the bot applied semi-protection, as you can see from the cases where the bot did semi-protect around the same time. * Pppery * it has begun... 02:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support the rare useful edit we might get is not worth the cost of showing readers grossly vandalized articles. Courcelles (talk) 21:55, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. TFA's have always been suspect to vandalism and other nonsensical edits for as long as I have been editing, and semi-protecting for a few days will go a long way to clear up this issue. The Night Watch (talk) 21:59, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support as a sensible measure to protect the readers' experience. Schazjmd (talk) 22:04, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. This has been long in the works, tracing back to the pending-changes trial two-and-a-half years ago at this point. The anti-vandalism benefits of semi-protection are clear, and I'll leave it to others to analyze those. But I want to focus in on the potential downside, which is that, as the "encyclopedia anyone can edit," we want to keep editing rights as open as possible to invite newcomers. As someone who focuses on newcomer aid, this is something I care about a lot. And I submit for consideration that a TFA is a terrible place for a newcomer to start editing. TFAs are high-quality, recently updated featured articles. By definition, they are considered essentially complete, and to the extent that they have flaws, they are generally things that only experienced editors can spot. So what is the newcomer experience editing them? It's the experience of changing something, and then getting rapidly reverted, because the thing didn't actually need changing, since it's a featured article. That's a bitey experience, no matter how polite the revert. So semi-protection is not just a boon for readers, who will encounter less vandalism, and for experienced editors, who will have less to patrol, but also for newcomers, who will be redirected toward friendlier waters to dip their toes into editing. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 22:11, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Clearly sensible proposal. SportingFlyer T·C 22:12, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Support. Abso-bad wording-lutely. Prevents LTAs and just random teenagers from vandalizing a very highly visible part of Wikipedia. CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE 22:18, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm in favor of this, but let's not anybody fool ourselves - it won't decrease the total amount of vandalism, and maybe not even the number of times our readers see vandalism; it's going to make it harder for us to find and revert. Some of it'll spill over to pages linked from TFA; some to other pages linked from the main page; some of it to random pages where - if Cluebot or some pagewatcher doesn't happen to revert it - it might stick around for days or weeks. —Cryptic 22:32, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Most vandalism is opportunistic, not complex LTA subterfuge plots. (I remember in sixth-grade-equivalent, my class was reading an article and I kept seeing vandalism coming up on it, and reverting it manually/longhand from "aha! I read a page about this, I know how to fix this"; a patroller who could act faster was very confused to come across what looked like an IP self-reverting, because all the vandals in this case were my classmates.) I'm very familiar with two of the other big-four processes (DYK and OTD), and vandalism rates for them are consistently much, much lower than TFA vandalism stats. I don't think we'll see massive overspill in the same way that most bored kids looking at an article in class are vandalising it, and not going out of their way to vandalise the third article linked instead. Vaticidalprophet 22:43, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- In addition to this, the whole draw of people vandalizing the featured article, for people who are doing that, is the fact that it is extremely prominent and people are "forced" to see it. Gnomingstuff (talk) 19:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Most vandalism is opportunistic, not complex LTA subterfuge plots. (I remember in sixth-grade-equivalent, my class was reading an article and I kept seeing vandalism coming up on it, and reverting it manually/longhand from "aha! I read a page about this, I know how to fix this"; a patroller who could act faster was very confused to come across what looked like an IP self-reverting, because all the vandals in this case were my classmates.) I'm very familiar with two of the other big-four processes (DYK and OTD), and vandalism rates for them are consistently much, much lower than TFA vandalism stats. I don't think we'll see massive overspill in the same way that most bored kids looking at an article in class are vandalising it, and not going out of their way to vandalise the third article linked instead. Vaticidalprophet 22:43, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support per above, as it seems that many TFAs already require semi-protection because of edits that need oversight, revdel, or rollback. There might be a possibility that the vandalism would just spread onto articles that are linked from the TFA blurb, but it is clear that semi-protecting the TFA would halt the worst of the damage. For example, on 23 Wall Street, it only took 14 minutes for someone to vandalize the infobox with a sexually explicit image (warning: NSFW). And somehow that edit is still fully visible in that article's revision history. Imagine how much worse it is for articles where the vandalism is so bad that it has to be RD'd or OS'd.I also agree with Sdkb that "a TFA is a terrible place for a newcomer to start editing". By definition, a TFA should showcase the very best work of Wikipedia, but we also encourage people to be bold, which sometimes creates a conflict. In my experience at least, newcomers' edits to TFAs often create errors even if they're editing in good faith, like this edit which created a run-on sentence that stayed for an hour. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. (EC) I help administer the main page and patrol WP:ERRORS. The issue of TFA vandalism has been brought up often enough at Errors as well as at WT:TFA that I'm all too aware for the need to be proactive in this area. Our most visible articles should simply not be available to vandals during the short period of being on the main page. Schwede66 00:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Quick comment: Paragraphs 2 and 3 of the RFC statement don't seem particularly neutral and brief to me, and it may be better to move those to a support !vote. WP:RFCNEUTRAL. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:06, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support, largely per my thoughts here. "The Encyclopedia That Anyone Can Edit" does not mean that all articles can and should be free for anyone to edit at all times. Recent FA promotions should ideally be in good enough shape that editing by brand new editors isn't need while its on the main page; most of the prose work I've seen done to TFAs on the main page is really just a net neutral at best and a net negative much of the time. If we're really going to say as an encyclopedia that the content writers matter, than we shouldn't be taking what is theoretically some of the best and hardest-worked content we have and blinding subject it to an open season for vandalism. Hog Farm Talk 02:07, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, good point. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support since admins have been doing this unofficially for some time, in response to lame vandalism, without the protection being a problem. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- How would you know if a semi-protection was a problem? * Pppery * it has begun... 02:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- If there were useful suggested edits showing up on the talk page, that would be an indication that semi-protection has a cost. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 02:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Has anyone actually done that analysis though? I didn't think to when I wrote the trial report, although I guess that there weren't that many edits obviously per talk page edit requests. * Pppery * it has begun... 02:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- If there were useful suggested edits showing up on the talk page, that would be an indication that semi-protection has a cost. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 02:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- How would you know if a semi-protection was a problem? * Pppery * it has begun... 02:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support I was skeptical of this early on, even as I was writing the trial report (which I apologize for dropping the ball on and never finishing). What finally convinced me was Sdkb's comment above, that editing the TFA would fail to provide a desirable or representative experience for new good-faith users, so all of the necessary effort separating wheat from chaff is wasted even from an idealistic perspective. * Pppery * it has begun... 02:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Weak Support, prefer Pending Changes Protection Instead. I second the concerns that many of the above editors have raised, though I do think that it is worth considering the possibility of semi-protecting TFA could raise the possibility of contradicting how anyone can edit Wikipedia, even if technically creating an account and staying for 10 days makes it anybody. There is the potential that this could discourage new editors from joining. It's a potential false pretense which could discourage. I would suggest we look at pending changes protection instead to mitigate this concern, as still reasonable good faith edits could be made with reviewer approval, while still allowing new users to contribute constructively as per our mission. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 02:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Pending changes protection has been shown to not work well with heavily edited pages due to the amounts of edits that can accrue if the page is not constantly watched. I don't think pending changes would work well in a potentially high-volume situation like TFA and would probably end up causing several new problems while doing little to alleviate the current ones. Hog Farm Talk 02:50, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- PC was tried for this in 2021 after initial support in an RFC. But when it came time to evaluate, a bunch of people ignored the trial entirely and just opposed on principle (along the lines of Hog Farm's comment just above) with no supporting data. That RFC concluded that people would rather try semi-protection, which eventually happened, and now we're (finally) evaluating that trial here. Anomie⚔ 11:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support, I'll be quick and brief for now since I need a bit of time to formally gather my thoughts. This is clearly needed and already technically done unofficially by admins. ― Blaze WolfTalkblaze__wolf 02:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support TFA has often suffered high amount disruption sometimes even through semi-protection, hopefully the disruption will be reduced thanks to semi-protection. Lightoil (talk) 03:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support It's a balancing act. Preemptively protecting pages is not something that should be taken lightly, but we should also not entertain routine vandalism of what is supposed to be "Wikipedia's best work". I would also agree with Sdkb that, save for a few cases, it is probably in the best interest of everyone involved that protection be applied. —PlanetJuice (talk • contribs) 04:12, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support—appears slam-and-shut per User:TFA Protector Bot/Semi-protection trial. 〜 Festucalex • talk 04:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support - seems like a self-evidently good idea, which has already been implemented with good results. Community consensus for this course of action seems overwhelming and essentially unanimous. Pecopteris (talk) 04:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support As explained above, inviting new editors to tweak a polished TFA will not help those new editors. Also, it is not productive to feature a highly visible vandal magnet. Johnuniq (talk) 05:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Can't really see a downside, as long as the unprotecting stays automatic as well. Lulfas (talk) 07:17, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Snow close as support. There's no realistic chance that this will fail, and rightly so.—S Marshall T/C 07:57, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Actually I believe this did fail in the past. Or maybe I'm thinking about something else. ― Blaze WolfTalkblaze__wolf 10:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- If no one objects or beats me to it, I'll probably snow close this after two days. CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE 18:00, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Should have happened a long time ago. Stifle (talk) 08:12, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support as proposer :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Serial Number 54129 (talk • contribs) 09:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support, leaving TFA open to general editing looks like a net negatove. Semi is much better than Pending Changes (which is just frustrating to everyone involved). —Kusma (talk) 10:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support per the local consensus on WT:TFA, and per the trial report. – SD0001 (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Strong Support -- Very overdue. Off topic but along the same line, but it would also be nice to see the subjects of Google Doodles, semiprotected as a matter of course as well especially for those articles with BLP issues. -- Dolotta (talk) 15:00, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I would oppose protection based on Google Doodles. If the article is of mediocre quality, it could benefit from editing by new editors. —Kusma (talk) 15:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I agree. While TFA is invariably supposed to showcase the highest-quality articles (and thus most likely doesn't need to be edited much by new/unregistered users), articles about the subjects of Google Doodles vary significantly in quality. I have seen many start- and C-class Google Doodle subjects, which can benefit from additional edits. On the other hand, there is an argument to be made that Google Doodles also attract vandalism, like on this start-class article. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I would oppose protection based on Google Doodles. If the article is of mediocre quality, it could benefit from editing by new editors. —Kusma (talk) 15:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support WP:SNOW TfAs have always recieved lots of vandalism and other nonsense and this will prevent said nonsense from occurring. — Prodraxis {talk • contribs} (she/her) 15:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Prodraxis: A discussion about a major change like this, particularly when it's been discussed many times before with no consensus, should be allowed to run for at least one full week. WP:SNOW is for less consequential cases in which consensus is both clear and has no realistic prospect of changing. Kurtis (talk) 22:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I am actually shocked to see myself type this, as an old hardliner, but begrudgingly Support doing this. At my core as a Wikipedian, it crushes me to take down a pillar of Wikipedia, and I don't do it lightly, but the data cited above is clear. I may be old and set in my ways, but I am also easily convinced to change if you do the leg work and put together a convincing argument backed by data. It's hard to argue with the data provided by @Vaticidalprophet:. It is a sad day for Wikipedia; but it has come nonetheless. --Jayron32 15:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support per the given data; I had an article on my watch list go to DYK and saw an uptick in edits; I can't imagine how much worse TFA gets. Doing this automatically will just remove the burden from admins of doing it manually every day. SilverTiger12 (talk) 16:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support very long overdue, it's unfortunate that it has to come to this, but the downsides of having to deal with vandalism seriously outweigh any potential upsides. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:54, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Confirming that this refers to the article, not its talk page. North8000 (talk) 17:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support – Typically I would say that protection shouldn't be preemptive, but there is enough history of vandalism to TFA to justify this. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 20:34, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support - basically every IP edits on TFAs are vandalism. And as stated above, recent FAs have been so thoroughly scrutinised that there isn't much of value that random drive-by editors with little editing experience can add. FunkMonk (talk) 20:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. SWinxy (talk) 21:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support per above. Therapyisgood (talk) 21:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Helps anyone acting in good faith, including new editors whom might get bitten, per above arguments. —siroχo 21:30, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Okay, fine, I'll go ahead and be that guy (although don't let my one oppose stop an early close if it's merited). The rule about not protecting TFA was put in place for good and proper reasons, even as it has become more and more frequent for it to be ignored and TFA semi-protected anyway. If vandalism happens, just revert it. But let people's first experience with Wikipedia potentially include really changing it. The main compelling worry is Sdkb's above, that "letting people make a change just to troll them by probably reverting it, even if it was good faith," is an even worse on-boarding experience than a semi-protected article. But... what about the times where there's a genuine improvement? My understanding was that at least back in the day, articles usually exited a TFA stint better than they started it. Much of this will be from edits from logged-in users, of course, but some can be from anonymous IPs. If this means main-page watchers need to do some more reverts in order to let the good edits through - oh well, just do some extra reverts. A small price to pay for ensuring people get the (correct) idea that yes, you really can change Wikipedia. SnowFire (talk) 22:07, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think the idea is really important, though in the sort of way Sdkb does ("I tried to do X and was immediately reverted, you personally need to tell me why" is the overwhelming-constant flood you get from discussing Wikipedia absolutely anywhere, ever, and none of those people become happy editors). But it's not really what the stats bear out -- there are markedly more vandalism edits to the unprotected articles in the trial than there are not-reverted-the-same-day IP and unconfirmed edits. Even "reverted the same day" non-vandalism edits doesn't add that many more. There are other sections of the main page that don't attract nearly that much vandalism while still attracting views and edits. TFA is low-hanging fruit for impulse vandalism because it's the very first, so it gets more proportionately than its pageview share -- it's not rare for DYK or OTD to get views-per-hour overlapping with TFA range, but I see far less vandalism on high-viewed DYK/OTDs. Vaticidalprophet 22:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support—I find the case for semi-protecting articles on the main page to be persuasive. I wonder if we could also add a notice at the top of the edit window for semi'd main page articles explaining why editing is currently unavailable. Kurtis (talk) 23:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. (Unrelatedly: That perennial proposals page seems overly negative) casualdejekyll 23:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. I understand the concern that's been raised in the past about this being a preventative action when we generally avoid using protection in that way, but I would argue that this is a unique case where though the specific article being vandalized changes from day to day, there is consistent vandalism of the TFA. The trial run has shown good results, edit requests continue to work, and realistically I find it unlikely that semiprotection on the TFA will harm the project or discourage potential new contributors. Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 01:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
NeutralOppose: Okay, I originally supported this with reservations, then I tacitly opposed it per SnowFire's argument, and now I'm sort of neutral. Read the page at WP:PERENNIAL, now I'm opposed again. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 01:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)- Support if changes are needed they can be proposed on the talk page, as a featured item I would expect those who created it are watching it closely and can deal with genuine problems quickly. Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 01:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Every time an article I have brought to FAC comes to TFA, there is a wave of vandalism unless someone protects it. Usually it is up for a few hours before the vandals prompt an admin to do so. Many editors oppose articles they have nominated being TFA for this reason. If it were just one article it subjected to this it would have been indefinitely protected years ago. The amount of time and effort that it will save for all concerned more than justifies protection, not to mention that the purpoe is to showcase our very best work, not how easily it is trashed by vandals. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Personally I never understood why this wasn't already a the standard, especially considering we do protect images through Commons. While I understand the argument about new editors, I think this is a pipe-dream with regards to TFA; the vast majority of non-semi editing on TFA articles is trolling, vandalism, etc. Good-faith new editors can still find articles to edit through ITN, DYK, and OTD (and in fact, these are more likely to be in need of improvement and are generally easier to edit than TFA). The trial demonstrably worked. Curbon7 (talk) 06:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Curbon7: AFAIK we only (fully) protect images that are on the main page directly. We don't protect images that are in other articles linked to from the main page, not even TFA. E.g. Commons:File:1998 - Tricolore (France) (4170715889).jpg still seems to be editable despite it being the second image in TFA 1998 FIFA World Cup final. We also fully protect the main page and all the templates that it uses, and this includes the TFA blurb, for the same reason we protect images on the main page. The temptation, even for confirmed editors to mess around with something appearing on a page seen by millions is considered too great. TFA is also fairly high visibility but not anywhere near as high as the main page, hence why this proposal is only for semi protection. And I'm fairly sure we still won't be automatically protecting images on TFA which aren't on the main page even if this passes for several reasons but especially that it's not going to cross well to commons (unlike with full protection where it's good enough). This has beans implications I guess. Edit: Just noticed the proposal below which further demonstrates my point although I didn't think of NFCC lead images when I wrote that which I agree per below do have even greater beans implications. Nil Einne (talk) 10:16, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support per proposal; overdue. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 10:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. TFAs always has vandals and disruptive editors unless it was already protected. Just like Curbon above, I don't understand why this hasn't been done a long time ago. TheCorvetteZR1(The Garage) 14:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support for obvious reasons. I don't buy the argument that this will divert vandalism elsewhere. Gnomingstuff (talk) 02:07, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support This would benefit the readers of Wikipedia while reducing the hassle that our volunteer community has to deal with. XOR'easter (talk) 19:07, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support maybe the case for trading off security for openness was stronger when Wikipedia was more of an emerging website, but it doesn't make sense in 2023. – Teratix ₵ 04:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support: clear need for protection. This will take an unnecessary strain off of patrollers. Any disadvantages are clearly outweighed. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 20:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Strong support Of the nearly 70 TFAs I have helped get to FA and nominated for TFA, I cannot remember a single occasion where the article was improved to any appreciable extent by an unconfirmed editor on the day and the day after it was TFA. It is almost always vandalised multiple times by IPs and unconfirmed editors, and many times it has been semi'ed rapidly after the new front page has been loaded due to relentless vandalism. The "potentially high quality contributors" can start a thread on the talk page. The trial has worked, let's lock it in. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:21, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support and WP:SNOW close for reasons mentioned above, the risks of keeping the pages unprotected are much higher than the benefits. Chaotic Enby (talk) 12:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose (though I know its snowing). "The encyclopedia anyone can edit" is sorta a key manta and protecting TFA works against that. I fully understand the persistent vandalism issue but I think that a needed solution is a way for yet-registered editors to be able to obviously contribute should be in place. If this means we should have a message to direct them to the talk page to provide feedback on the top of the TFA's article, so be it. --Masem (t) 13:13, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- We already have something like this in place with {{pp}}. IT's just that it's never seen because we always add the
small
parameter so it's not intrusive. ― Blaze WolfTalkblaze__wolf 14:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)- It would be preferable to have a specialized template for TFA, not making it small and with language to both explain why one cannot edit the page directly (to avoid vandalism) and to use the talk page for suggestions. Masem (t) 14:33, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Ah that is fair. Maybe a variation of the pp template could be made for such a purpose since it already fits quite well for the purpose. ― Blaze WolfTalkblaze__wolf 14:38, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- We already have an edit notice for people editing TFA; it would be much better to tweak that notice than to bother casual readers with the internal workings of Wikipedia. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 15:01, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Ah that is fair. Maybe a variation of the pp template could be made for such a purpose since it already fits quite well for the purpose. ― Blaze WolfTalkblaze__wolf 14:38, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- It would be preferable to have a specialized template for TFA, not making it small and with language to both explain why one cannot edit the page directly (to avoid vandalism) and to use the talk page for suggestions. Masem (t) 14:33, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- We already have something like this in place with {{pp}}. IT's just that it's never seen because we always add the
- Support basically per Peacemaker67. The most any of my TFA's ever "benefited" from IP or unconfirmed editing were the addition of benign punctuation. The tradeoff was vandalism and good faith shuffling and rewriting of text in ways to make it drift away from the sources (and specific editorial decisions which had consensus at FAn). What good is the principle if it is doing us no good? -Indy beetle (talk) 19:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support I'm sympathetic to the notion that this is an opportunity for readers to learn that editing is possible, but I think the potential harms far outweigh the benefit here. Sam Walton (talk) 19:20, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. The edit histories of several of my FAs are now littered with a page or two of TFA-related garbage edits and reverts, including some very appalling image vandalism. It's simply a waste of editor time not to have the TFA semi-protected. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:09, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support – This always feels like a game: the TFA goes online and is okay for the first few hours, a ton of vandalism occurs and then the article is put on semi. No need to waste the valuable time of editors cleaning up TFAs time and time again, just start it on semi! Aza24 (talk) 23:49, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support - and in the long term, I think Wikipedia needs to disallow anonymous editing entirely. --RockstoneSend me a message! 22:16, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support this is an encyclopedia for readers, who would only see benefits from this (rather minor) proposal's enaction. Readers can be editors, hence the existence of maintenance templates, but most are not, so it isn't worth the possible vandalism to allow editors to "cut their teeth" on an already good article. Mach61 (talk) 13:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
- Request for close it has been a week, and there is overwhelming consensus that is unlikely to change. I'll ping @TFA Protector Bot and its handlers @Legoktm, The Earwig, and Enterprisey. I'll leave it up to the closer whether to also close the sub-RfC on the images. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 21:40, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support - Lock out trolls and vandals. This should have been policy long ago. Carrite (talk) 22:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Sub RfC: Upload protection of fair use infobox/lead images for TFA's
We've had issues where vandals will modify the infobox/lead image of an article. These images are usually fully protected, but when they're fair use, because they aren't usually shown on the main page, they're usually left unprotected. We've had issues where these images are changed by vandals, such as recently with The Playboy, where the infobox image was changed to an image of Goatse (see Talk:The_Playboy#goatse_as_cover_image) As such, I propose the automatic full protection full upload protection of lead/infobox images for featured article when they are on the front pages, regardless of whether they are shown on the main page or not. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Per nom. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- ? Wouldn't upload protection be more important there? — xaosflux Talk 20:05, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I am fine with either full or upload protection, but I assume full protection includes upload protection? Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:08, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hemiauchenia, these are apples and oranges. The following actions can be protected: "edit", "move", "upload". The following protection levels exist for each one: "semi", "extended-confirmed", "template editor" and "full". ~ ToBeFree (talk) 10:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I am fine with either full or upload protection, but I assume full protection includes upload protection? Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:08, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, not common enough attack, don't protect pre-emptively. Just WP:RBI. —Kusma (talk) 20:18, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Weak support upload protection again, requires more tech savvy than simply editing the text, but possibly goes into "might as well" territory. All bets are off with full protection, though– John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support. SWinxy (talk) 21:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:50, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- support - still unsure about the above proposal but this seems obvious. Nobody's being introduced to editing by replacing the tfa image. It's rare but it makes sense as a precaution given how damaging such a swap can be. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 23:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support for similar reasons to my support !vote above (and the above proposal). In addition, while there are quite clearly constructive reasons that new and unregistered editors might edit a page, constructive cases for uploading a new version of the TFA's lead image strike me as exceedingly rare (honestly, probably nonexistent). Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 01:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Leaning support per above for three reasons 1) this has proven to be a method of attack in the past and due to mediawiki caching lag has proven to be a trickier one to clean up after 2) our non-free content guidelines are by nature opaque enough that this isn't really something newer users should be messing with anyway and 3) TFA are generally vetted enough that between either a recent FAC or the TFA rerun selection process the stuff we're running up there should theoretically be in good enough shape that major changes to the lead image would need discussion, not unilateral change, anyways. Yes, there's some poorer older FAs but between greater awareness in the TFA scheduling process and the work of WP:URFA/2020, the issues with unmaintained or low-quality FAs from '06 or '07 appearing at TFA is much less likely than it was even two years ago. Hog Farm Talk 04:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Sick of the pornographic images. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Common sense. Curbon7 (talk) 06:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support for pretty much the same reasons as everyone else. Also support move and/or upload protection as necessary. TFAs should not be so much of a chore that they require editors to watch them 24/7 while on the Main Page. SilverTiger12 (talk) 13:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. I think there's a lot more downside here than in the main proposal. The main proposal would affect only nonconfirmed users, but nonconfirmed users already cannot upload local files (per WP:AUTOCONFIRM). Instead, it would affect confirmed non-admin editors, since per WP:UPLOAD-P upload-protected pages can only have new versions uploaded by admins. I can easily envision a scenario in which an experienced editor like myself might want to upload a new version of an image of TFA (for instance, to crop out a border included in the file, or to improve the contrast) and be prevented from doing so by this. I'll leave it to others to weigh the costs vs. benefits in light of this, but the !votes above that treat it as an obvious corollary to the main proposal do not seem to reflect an understanding that it is actually quite different. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 18:43, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support per my comment above; would also be possible to consider carrying over to Wikidata since some templates autopopulate from it. Gnomingstuff (talk) 02:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per Kusma. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 16:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Even if it is uncommon, any single instance of it is bad enough that we should mitigate the possibility at the outset. XOR'easter (talk) 19:07, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- We generally don't pre-emptively protect pages. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 23:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Consensus can change. I think Wikipedia has a lot of things that are set in stone because "a few editors 15+ years ago said it should be this way, so it is". casualdejekyll 22:22, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- We generally don't pre-emptively protect pages. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 23:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Not enough evidence that this is a persistent problem that requires pre-emptive protection from all non-admin editors. Largely in agreement with Sdkb that file protection would prevent more beneficial edits than disruptive edits. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 19:15, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I'm indifferent on this one. I feel that it would help, but at the same time I don't think its that much of a problem to require protection since its harder to change the image than it is to vandalize the article. ― Blaze WolfTalkblaze__wolf 01:33, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support Not really convinced by Sdkb's point here, opportunities for legitimate improvements in this scenario are vastly outnumbered and outweighed by opportunities for mischief. – Teratix ₵ 04:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- One important consideration is whether this would actually make things harder for LTAs (who, per the point about autoconfirmation above, seem to be the main target). If so, that's persuasive. If e.g. uploading a new file is just as easy/disruptive as overwriting an existing one, then we're blocking good-faith improvements while not actually solving the vandalism problem. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 12:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Support the risk is not worth it, the prevention is easy, and the chance that a real edit will be negated is unlikely. Fair enough to me – Aza24 (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Category views
Categorization is critically important for reasons of searchability, analysis, management, visualization, redundancy, and user experience - among others.
Currently, the utility of categories is largely diminished by the superset approach which overcategorizes to the point that categories can't be used in a productive manner for domain specific tasks.
While it's very important to maintain the free speech and democracy of Wikipedia, there is a way to add a layer of quality control without undermining that: Category views, though only as second class citizens.
A category view would be another set of wiki pages / tables that can be managed alongside categories. They would provide a hierarchy that allows for semi-protected subcat/page inclusion. This would allow experts in a field to leverage the content of wikipedia.
Category views would not allow for the creation of new categories, only their connections. Folks creating category views would need to work with the community to ensure that the categories they care about are well named and being productively used. Creating new categories for the purpose of category views would be frowned upon and would be subject to immediate reversal.
In order to not disrupt the democracy of wikipedia, category views would be separate pages unto themselves and wouldn't be shown on article pages. category view pages would be largely separate. categorylinks would not be altered/impacted by this effort in any way. It would be an entirely separate table.
A very useful feature, perhaps offline, would be merging capability. This would allow for individuals to work together, perhaps as editorial boards, to merge their efforts.
An alternative to this would be user pages and currently existing pagelinks with specific nomenclature. Third class citizens, for sure, but it'd be nice to get approval / permission to start doing this. The downside of this approach is that it would likely involve the creation of new categories (the user pages themselves), which is an effort which would be lost to the community.
This might be an outside of wikipedia/wikimedia effort, but I think it'd suffer greatly if not aligned and controlled by wikipedia. Wikiqrdl (talk) 09:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I understand the proposal, nor what the issue is exactly. What does
Currently, the utility of categories is largely diminished by the superset approach which overcategorizes to the point that categories can't be used in a productive manner for domain specific tasks
mean exactly? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:59, 27 August 2023 (UTC)- Indeed. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 13:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Lee Vilenski Just walk the tree/graph of category views from any starting point to any reasonable depth, and you end up traversing almost all of wikipedia. If I were, say, a biologist and I wanted to export and create a zim of all the biology pages on Wikipedia - how would I do that? Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:23, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Wikiqrdl: What is a zim? Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 20:25, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- Probably ZIM (file format). And the obvious answer to the question is "Ask for help at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:38, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing It was a rhetorical question. The answer is you can't, as there is no useful categorization that would give you all the pages / subcats a biologist would be interested in. Wikiqrdl (talk) 14:29, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- I'd assume that the answer to "What pages would a biologist be interested in?" would have significant overlap with the answer to "What pages is WP:WikiProject Biology interested in?", so I'd probably start with Category:WikiProject Biology articles.
- If you wanted to do this more seriously (i.e., get all the articles for a subject, rather than complaining about the category structure), then I'd suggest looking at the systems used by WP:1.0, because "all the pages a biologist would be interested in" includes pages that aren't about biology, but which are linked in a significant number of biology-related articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:33, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing It was a rhetorical question. The answer is you can't, as there is no useful categorization that would give you all the pages / subcats a biologist would be interested in. Wikiqrdl (talk) 14:29, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- Probably ZIM (file format). And the obvious answer to the question is "Ask for help at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:38, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Wikiqrdl: What is a zim? Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 20:25, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- Could you dumb-down your proposal a little bit? What does "merging capability" mean? What is a "category view"? And so on. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 13:33, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Edward-Woodrow Take scholarpedia, for example. An admirable effort, if poorly executed along many different dimensions, it's lack of democracy probably being the worst. However, there is a way to integrate efforts like scholarpedia into wikipedia by creating category views. Credible experts can maintain these as well as provide expert guidance on the categories linked to from their views. Experts will recognize each others efforts and see them as equally credible and will want to merge their category views, becoming a board of two or more to control that view. Certain pages will get accepted in their views, some will not. Again - these views will be entirely outside the normal flow of things so as not to disrupt the democracy of wikipedia. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:28, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- I am so confused. You still haven't explained what a category view is. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 20:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- A category view is the same as the categorylinks table, except under semi-protected control and outside the normal flow of wikipedia. As mentioned, it wouldn't allow for the creation of new categories, only the links between the categories to subcats, pages, files, and others as appropriate. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Wikiqrdl: I have a sinking feeling we're operating in different universes. Or you're using ChatGPT. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 20:46, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- No, not using chatgpt. Start here, click on links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contents/Categories
- eg-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contents/Categories -->
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Biology -->
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Botany -->
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Plants-->
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Coats_of_arms_with_plants Wikiqrdl (talk) 21:11, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I expect most or all of the people responding here are aware that categories have subcategories within them. What is not clear is what you are asking to do about that. Your request is in some sort of technojargon that is not the common language around here. If you were to say "hey, wouldn't it be nice if we were to have one page that could show you a list of all the articles that were in the Botany category, even if they are buried in a sub-subcategory" (which I'm not assuming is what you're asking for, but is here as an example of clearer communication) then we could address it. But your suggestion is full of nomenclature that may (or may not) mean something to you, but no one reading it has been able to figure out what you're suggesting. Perhaps it would be best if you mocked up a dummy page of what a "category view" would look like, and linked to that. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:52, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @NatGertler I mean, proper categorization is 'technojargon'? Wikiqrdl (talk) 22:09, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- Do you really think 'coats of arms with plants' subcat belongs under biology -> botany? I am failing to see how this is confusing. Wikiqrdl (talk) 22:12, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- As for terminology, I'm just referencing the wikipedia tables. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Database_layout Wikiqrdl (talk) 22:16, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- So your complaint is that "coats of arms with plants" is under "biology -> botany"? Because there has been no bloody way of telling that from the blather you've put forth, much less what you believe we should do about that. Do not expect people in a "policy" discussion area to be deep into the database programming aspect of this site; yes, that material would qualify as technojargon in this context. Look around you at the responses your post has generated; does anyone appear to know what it is you want?? You are not communicating clearly in this context. I cannot picture what end result you want.
- And since you asked, while I am not in love with the category system here, I am fine with "coats of arms with plants" being a subcategory of "Coats of arms by charge", "Plants and humans" and "Plants in art", all of which seem fitting. And I expect top-level categories to be very loose in their definition and broad in their inclusion.
- Again, I suggest if you want people here to understand what you're talking about (not that I'm convinced you've found the right place -- perhaps Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) or Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) would be more fitting), mock up a version of what you want to see. I do not seem to be alone in your posts not generating a mental picture of what you want. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- Are you looking for a tool like meta:PetScan? Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 15:21, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
- You might be able to automate this, but I think it would be better for Human Beings to do the job. For Categorization to be useful, you really want an expert in the domain to break things down in a way that's useful for practioners. It's like a taxonomy in biology. Wikiqrdl (talk) 14:27, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I expect most or all of the people responding here are aware that categories have subcategories within them. What is not clear is what you are asking to do about that. Your request is in some sort of technojargon that is not the common language around here. If you were to say "hey, wouldn't it be nice if we were to have one page that could show you a list of all the articles that were in the Botany category, even if they are buried in a sub-subcategory" (which I'm not assuming is what you're asking for, but is here as an example of clearer communication) then we could address it. But your suggestion is full of nomenclature that may (or may not) mean something to you, but no one reading it has been able to figure out what you're suggesting. Perhaps it would be best if you mocked up a dummy page of what a "category view" would look like, and linked to that. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 21:52, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Wikiqrdl: I have a sinking feeling we're operating in different universes. Or you're using ChatGPT. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 20:46, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- A category view is the same as the categorylinks table, except under semi-protected control and outside the normal flow of wikipedia. As mentioned, it wouldn't allow for the creation of new categories, only the links between the categories to subcats, pages, files, and others as appropriate. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- I am so confused. You still haven't explained what a category view is. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 20:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Edward-Woodrow Take scholarpedia, for example. An admirable effort, if poorly executed along many different dimensions, it's lack of democracy probably being the worst. However, there is a way to integrate efforts like scholarpedia into wikipedia by creating category views. Credible experts can maintain these as well as provide expert guidance on the categories linked to from their views. Experts will recognize each others efforts and see them as equally credible and will want to merge their category views, becoming a board of two or more to control that view. Certain pages will get accepted in their views, some will not. Again - these views will be entirely outside the normal flow of things so as not to disrupt the democracy of wikipedia. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:28, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Wikiqrdl: your only edits on Wikipedia are proposing this topic; would you like to give any more context as to what you mean by it? – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 14:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- @John M Wolfson My general recommendation for anyone interested in this topic is to download the categorylinks table and traverse it from root nodes. You'll quickly see what I mean. It's almost like categorization on wikipeia is largely non-existent. There are some pages which do a very admirable effort of fixing this, like the portals, but they don't provide the hierarchical control that you'd want to productively span a specific domain. Perhaps portals can be enhanced for this purpose, however. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:37, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Wikiqrdl: I still don't fully understand what you're talking about, but the historical trend on Wikipedia has been to move away from over-hierarchization and directories; subpages were turned off in the mainspace in 2002, and portals have been on their way out for a while, even being removed (or at least demoted, I don't recall) from the Main Page. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:46, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- Not sure what you mean by 'subpages' were turned off. They are directly accessible by the UI. Eg - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contents/Categories -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Calculus -> subpages. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Wikiqrdl:I said in the mainspace; i.e., the fact that A/B testing is its own page and not a subpage of A, and the fact that all pages with "/" in them and not any colons (so no "Wikipedia:" or "Wikipedia talk:") are their own pages and not subpages. I'll AGF and assume that you had simply skipped over those words when you read my comment (I've done the same a few times), but if you had not – or, worse still, still don't know what I mean – you should edit more to Wikipedia (your only edits are still to this topic) before you make such radical proposals as these. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- It's not radical at all, it's just commonsense. Fortunately, it's already happening in terms of portals. Here's a fantastic example - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biology Wikiqrdl (talk) 22:47, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Wikiqrdl:I said in the mainspace; i.e., the fact that A/B testing is its own page and not a subpage of A, and the fact that all pages with "/" in them and not any colons (so no "Wikipedia:" or "Wikipedia talk:") are their own pages and not subpages. I'll AGF and assume that you had simply skipped over those words when you read my comment (I've done the same a few times), but if you had not – or, worse still, still don't know what I mean – you should edit more to Wikipedia (your only edits are still to this topic) before you make such radical proposals as these. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:24, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- Not everyone feels that portals are on their way out. The RfC linked above concluded that
There exists a strong consensus against deleting or even deprecating portals at this time
. The list of portals is still linked from the Main Page, though less prominently than before. Certes (talk) 21:35, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- Not sure what you mean by 'subpages' were turned off. They are directly accessible by the UI. Eg - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contents/Categories -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Calculus -> subpages. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Wikiqrdl: I still don't fully understand what you're talking about, but the historical trend on Wikipedia has been to move away from over-hierarchization and directories; subpages were turned off in the mainspace in 2002, and portals have been on their way out for a while, even being removed (or at least demoted, I don't recall) from the Main Page. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:46, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- @John M Wolfson My general recommendation for anyone interested in this topic is to download the categorylinks table and traverse it from root nodes. You'll quickly see what I mean. It's almost like categorization on wikipeia is largely non-existent. There are some pages which do a very admirable effort of fixing this, like the portals, but they don't provide the hierarchical control that you'd want to productively span a specific domain. Perhaps portals can be enhanced for this purpose, however. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:37, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hey, if I'm the first person to guess that this proposal was written by artificial intelligence, and it turns out I'm right, do I win anything? -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:48, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hm, I thought that too. Did you think it before 13.33 UTC? Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 15:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- OP hasn't edited since ten minutes after proposing this, yet made a couple of minor tweak edits in those ten minutes. 🤔 – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 01:15, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hm, I thought that too. Did you think it before 13.33 UTC? Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 15:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- One particularly useful feature a category view would provide would allow for editors to be alerted whenever a page underneath their view gets edited. This would not be a primary purpose of a view, but more of a natural result of its existence. I recognize similar things like this already exist, but the point is to surface that view that the editor is trying to maintain as it would be useful to others. Escalation paths could be integrated into a category view assuming a board exists to manage it, to allow for division of labor aligned with expertise and responsibilities. Wikiqrdl (talk) 20:56, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
Alright, I'll bite. Wikiqrdl - How does your proposal differ from WikiData? And also how does this differ from the internet phenomenon of "tagging"? - jc37 22:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, the more I look into this, I realize that this is what portals is trying to be. Just needs to more support. Wikiqrdl (talk) 22:44, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- I think that portals are trying to be what most of the World Wide Web was before search engines became popular. They are certainly not trying to be a database. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:36, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think the intention of wikidata is to allow editors to come up with domain specific categorization of an area of knowledge on Wikipedia. Rather it's about providing a system for managing data across sites and linking them.
- It's possible you might be able to repurpose WikiData for the problem of overcategorization on Wikipedia, but I don't immediately see how.
- As for tags, yes, it's sort of like that but I don't think you'd include the tags on the pages themselves and the tags would need to be properly nested.
- I think the best example on wikipedia right now are the 'portals', though they need to be enhanced to fully categorize their fields of interest. Wikiqrdl (talk) 14:35, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- Wikidata is structured data. This includes saying things like: This is a living organism – subtype plant – subtype vascular plant – subtype flowering plant – subtype dicot – and so forth.
- Wikidata is all about having everything properly nested down a predictable tree. If your idea of fun is talking about whether something is an instance of X vs a subtype of X, then it's definitely a place you should check out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:41, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
Proposed wording change to CITE re in-text attribution to conform to V and NONFREE
I have posted a proposed wording change to WP:CITE at its talk page; please comment there if interested. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- The change to CITE has been made. I have now suggested a corresponding change to the close paraphrasing essay, here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:48, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
RfC: TFA fair use lead image protection
Which level of Upload-protection should be applied to Wikipedia-hosted images that appear in the lead section of an article appearing as Today's Featured Article from the day before it appears on the Main Page through the day after?
- Option 1: No change (which defaults to the normal requirement that image uploaders be autoconfirmed)
- Option 2: Extended-confirmed protection (500 edits/30 days)
- Option 3: Full-protection (only administrators)
{{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)Clarified per below 14:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Background (TFA images)
Commons-hosted TFA lead images normally appear on the Main Page and are thereby subject to cascading full protection, but Wikipedia-hosted images are not, and have previously generally remained unprotected. In a sidebar at the recent RfC on article semi-protection, editors raised the issue that these have been subject to vandalism and may warrant heightened protection. There was some possible confusion about the current situation and available options, however, so after discussion with the closer, this RfC seeks to clarify consensus about how we should deal with these images. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Survey (TFA images)
- Option 2 as per Sdkb, it seems like a happy medium between preventing vandalism while not locking out most well-meaning editors. I suspect most editors experienced enough to do image alterations are going to be extended-confirmed already. Happy editing, SilverTiger12 (talk) 01:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Option 2 per Sdkb and SilverTiger2. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 01:05, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Option 2. I cannot conceive of really any instances where a very new editor would need to upload a replacement image in a currently featured article, and if on some exceptionally rare occasion that would be needed, they can still suggest it on the talk page (which for a TFA will generally be quite heavily watched). Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Option 3. I'm having a hard time coming up with any situation where one would need to change a photo that that is so urgent it can't wait until after the article is on the main page, yet not urgent enough to have been fixed before that. Gnomingstuff (talk) 01:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Gnomingstuff, I don't think the situation would ever be "urgent". But I'm also pretty sure my example of cropping out an unneeded border is something I've done for a TFA sometime in the past, not just a hypothetical. Yes, it's always possible to wait or to make an edit request, but those are barriers that might make someone decide not to bother or cause them to forget. That's not a huge effect, sure, but when ECP would eliminate 99% of the vandalism risk, it's being weighed against a very small downside. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 14:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Sdkb I was thinking more things like "wait, this image is a copyvio, and somehow no one realized this until the photo hit the front page." (I guess in this unlikely hypothetical situation someone reached out.) But even then, I don't see how option 3 would prevent something that needs to be changed from getting changed. Something like a border isn't a need-to-change. Gnomingstuff (talk) 16:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Gnomingstuff, I don't think the situation would ever be "urgent". But I'm also pretty sure my example of cropping out an unneeded border is something I've done for a TFA sometime in the past, not just a hypothetical. Yes, it's always possible to wait or to make an edit request, but those are barriers that might make someone decide not to bother or cause them to forget. That's not a huge effect, sure, but when ECP would eliminate 99% of the vandalism risk, it's being weighed against a very small downside. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 14:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Option 3 I am surprised to learn that Commons images are protected, as there have been incidents in the past when they have been deleted or replaced with pornographic images. It is hard to think of a reason why an image must be replaced while the article is at TFA unless it has been vandalised. Otherwise it always wait another day. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:34, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- c:User:KrinkleBot protects images that are displayed on the Main Page and Wikipedia:Main Page/Tomorrow (and two other pages to support POTD and ITN). Those make the image displayed on the Main Page itself protected, and usually that's also the lead image in the article. Sometimes, though, a crop is uploaded or an alternate image is chosen that fits better in the Template:TFA box, and I expect instances like that are when you saw the image displayed in the article vandalized. —Cryptic 01:56, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Option 2 as first choice, but Option 3 is acceptable. I think it's reasonably possible that someone might want to provide a replacement image (maybe slightly better centering or something) and that doing so would be an actual improvement, at the article's highest-ever profile, so I lean toward option 2. I think at least option 2 is necessary, because of the high "attractive nuisance" quality of front-page-featured content. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Option 3 as the featured article and its images have already undergone close scrutiny. Discussion prior to changes would be a good idea. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:53, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Option 3 Fears about items locked-down are overblown. This sort of temporary protection is needed. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Option 2. There is always a tradeoff between deterring vandalism and trying to open the door to good-faith contributions. Even restricting to admins will never get us to 100% protection, and LTAs will always seek the most attractive nuisance opportunity available. The question then becomes, how many edits/tenure do we need to require to make it an unattractive option for LTAs? Is it 10 edits/4 days? Clearly not, which is why we're having this discussion. Is it 10,000 edits/2 years (the rough floor for admin consideration)? I'd argue that that's clearly overkill — I would trust that a user with 8,000 edits/a year's tenure who is trying to edit an image on an FTA article is far more likely to be contributing in good faith than to be an LTA throwing away the dozens of hours of work it took to reach that point in order to commit a momentary act of vandalism that'll be quickly reverted. So where is the happy medium? 500/30 seems about right. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 19:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Option 2 ECP protection is a good level. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:52, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Option 2 seems sufficient, it's significant enough of a hurdle that drive by vandals (and even determined trolls) are unlikely to surpass it, and it still allows experienced editors to edit when needed. --Jayron32 12:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- Option 2 by SMcCandlish's reasoning. HenryMP02 (talk) 17:46, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- Option 2 per Sdkb and SMcCandlish. Hog Farm Talk 01:58, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Option 2. Note that option 3 places extra burden on our often overtaxed administrators. Even if it rarely happens, there's the administrative/cognitive burden of it being a possible thing that may be needed. —siroχo 03:34, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Option 2 Seems like the most reasonable way forward. Pecopteris (talk) 03:46, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Option 2 Protection is definitely needed, but full protection seems like overkill. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:06, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
Discussion (TFA images)
Pings to participants in the sidebar and the closer: @Hemiauchenia, Xaosflux, ToBeFree, Kusma, John M Wolfson, SWinxy, Chris troutman, Rhododendrites, Dylnuge, Hog Farm, Hawkeye7, Curbon7, SilverTiger12, Gnomingstuff, Edward-Woodrow, XOR'easter, Casualdejekyll, Freedom4U, Blaze Wolf, Teratix, and CaptainEek: {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm personally still unsure about how to !vote here, although I'm leaning toward option 2. I would find it helpful to hear from vandalism experts who can comment more on whether we've seen a pattern of abuse here beyond just the Playboy incident and if it seems to be just LTAs or also others. I'd also find it helpful to hear more about the relative ease and disruptiveness of uploading new versions of a file vs. just uploading and inserting a new file (e.g. the caching problem). From my current understanding, extended-confirmed protection seems like a happy medium. It's what we use to protect lots of other sensitive/highish-profile things by imposing enough of a barrier that almost all LTAs find it easier to go disrupt something else (a marginal win for us to the extent that their next-best option is lower-visibility). At the same time, it would allow experienced non-admin editors to directly make simple changes to photos, such as cropping out borders or fixing contrast issues. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 00:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert on this particular type of vandalism but my understanding is it has been going on in some form since the early 2000s (when shock images like goatse were more common on the Internet in general). Gnomingstuff (talk) 11:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think there is some confusion about protection, again. For example, todays FA img includes File:Lost in Translation poster.jpg. A file may have 3 different types of protection: EDIT, MOVE, UPLOAD. Each of these may have the same or different levels of protection. EDIT only deals with the file's description, which would be minimally visible to readers. MOVE could be a problem as it it could break the file, UPLOAD would allow replacing the image with another one (without having to edit the article). — xaosflux Talk 01:45, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- So the real matter for discussion is what is the type of disruption that you want to deal with, and are willing to trade off protection vs the ability for someone to improve a file. — xaosflux Talk 01:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Upload protection is the main one and implied by the options as that's the one which has actually been an issue. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:31, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Right, I don't understand "Option 3" in this survey. Upload protection is not a binary of "administrators only" or no protection, it can be applied to different levels, so you could have, for example, ECP-only-upload protection if you wanted. Legoktm (talk) 11:31, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Sdkb: I came here to say the same things as Xaosflux and Legoktm, only to find that they had already said them. To clarify, there are three types of protection - edit, move and upload (a fourth type, create protection, is available on non-existent pages in place of the other three); and English Wikipedia provides five levels of protection - Allow all users, Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access, Require extended confirmed access, Require template editor access and Require administrator access; and for any given page, each of the four prot types may be set independently to any of the five prot levels. The RfC also comes in "blind", it lacks context - although this is covered in the Background subsection, remember that it won't appear in the RfC listings unless mentioned before the first timestamp. So I think that it would be best if you clarified the RfC statement; I suggest four amendments:
- Add an introductory phrase like
Following the recent discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Automatically semi-protect Today's Featured Article, which level of protection ...
- Amend
Which level of protection should be applied ...
to readWhich level of Upload-protection should be applied ...
- Amend option 1 to remove the text
to upload images
, this now being redundant to the preceding question - Amend option 3 to read
Full protection (administrators only)
- Add an introductory phrase like
- Option 2 can be left alone. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- The purpose of the background section is to provide context, so I think that's where context should go, but if you feel the background section is sufficiently neutral, feel free to remove the initial signature so that it gets transcluded as well (hopefully we can trust people to read more than just the transcluded bit before !voting, though). Happy to make the other changes. The confusion there is partially stemming from Wikipedia:Protection policy, where "upload protection" is listed alongside things like "extended-confirmed protection," and also begins
Upload-protected files, or more technically, fully upload-protected files, cannot be replaced with new versions except by an administrator
, thus blurring the difference between types and levels. I'd urge some reorganization of that page so that the current "Types of protection" level-2 heading is split into "Types of protection" and "Levels of protection" to make the distinction clear. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 14:41, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- The purpose of the background section is to provide context, so I think that's where context should go, but if you feel the background section is sufficiently neutral, feel free to remove the initial signature so that it gets transcluded as well (hopefully we can trust people to read more than just the transcluded bit before !voting, though). Happy to make the other changes. The confusion there is partially stemming from Wikipedia:Protection policy, where "upload protection" is listed alongside things like "extended-confirmed protection," and also begins
- @Sdkb: I came here to say the same things as Xaosflux and Legoktm, only to find that they had already said them. To clarify, there are three types of protection - edit, move and upload (a fourth type, create protection, is available on non-existent pages in place of the other three); and English Wikipedia provides five levels of protection - Allow all users, Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access, Require extended confirmed access, Require template editor access and Require administrator access; and for any given page, each of the four prot types may be set independently to any of the five prot levels. The RfC also comes in "blind", it lacks context - although this is covered in the Background subsection, remember that it won't appear in the RfC listings unless mentioned before the first timestamp. So I think that it would be best if you clarified the RfC statement; I suggest four amendments:
- So the real matter for discussion is what is the type of disruption that you want to deal with, and are willing to trade off protection vs the ability for someone to improve a file. — xaosflux Talk 01:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm still indifferent. I have no real opinion on this. I see both the positives and negatives of this. ― Blaze WolfTalkblaze__wolf 02:42, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Review of draft of previously deleted title
I have a two-part question about situations that I encounter from time to time. First, I am reviewing a draft, and I see that the title has already been deleted following AFD, and the title is salted, either as a locked redirect to another article, or simply create-protected. I couldn't accept the draft even if I wanted to. If the submitter seems to be making a good-faith submission, what advice should I give the author, or what should I as a reviewer do? I have in the past advised the submitter to go to deletion review to consider desalting. However, I have also been criticized for sending editors to DRV. I could advise the submitter to go to Requests for Protection to request unprotection, but the administrator there may not want to override an AFD. So what advice should a reviewer give, or what should a reviewer do, when the title is salted?
Second, I may be reviewing a draft where the title has been deleted repeatedly, but is either not salted or only ECP-protected. I can accept the draft, editing through ECP, but should I? Are there special precautions that I should take when reviewing such a draft?
What should be done by a reviewer who is reviewing a draft when an article with that title has been previously deleted? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:52, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- Visit the talk page of one of our more helpful sysops and explain. In the circumstances you describe, they'll unprotect without the need for further process.—S Marshall T/C 22:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think this is common enough for any kind of regularised procedure to have developed, but I think the easiest way would be for the AFC reviewer to request unprotection (or downgrade to EC), either from RFP, the salting administrator or any other administrator. Probably more likely for the request to be accepted, the more obvious it is that it's as part of the AFC workflow. Same way how an experienced editor could probably easily get a deleted article refunded to draftspace whereas a newbie might not make the request well enough and end up getting sent to DRV Alpha3031 (t • c) 08:20, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
BLP noticeboard banner question
The talk page of a biography of a living person, Talk:Dominic Ng, contains a banner, {{BLP noticeboard}}, with a date. There is no discussion in the BLP noticeboard because the previous discussion was archived by an archival bot. The instructions for the banner say that it should be removed when the discussion at BLPN is resolved. The discussion was not resolved, but was archived without resolution. Should the instructions for removal be revised to say that the template can be removed when the discussion is resolved or archived? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:09, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- Would it be helpful if we had some sort of "old afd" option in cases like this? Not for everything, but reasonably important ones. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:36, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- I think so. I would change the instructions to say "This template should be removed when the BLP noticeboard discussion is resolved or archived." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:11, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- Amend to "...is resolved or archived by a uninvolved party." CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 23:23, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
Admins and being paid to advise on editing
I have recently learned about an admin who is offering their services on Upwork. This admin (who I'm not naming because of WP:OUTING but who I will inform of this discussion) is quite clear that they will not edit or use their admin toolset. This admin further makes clear that they will follow all Wikipedia rules about paid editing and expect their clients to do the same. The service that they do offer is helping their clients "every step of the way" with editing on Wikipedia.
I feel pretty confident, for a number of reasons, that there is no paid editing violation happening based on the conduct of this admin and the way the Terms of Use and enwiki policies and guidelines are written. However, I am pretty troubled by this all the same in the way I wouldn't be with a non-admin. Again I do not suspect this current admin of doing anything wrong so it's not about them; it's about this as a principle. Do others see this as an issue as well? If so what should we do in response? Ideas that we could do:
- Change the requirement for RfA candidates to something like
required to disclose whether they have ever edited Wikipedia, or advised others on editing Wikipedia, for pay
(though this doesn't impact people after they become admins or current admins) - Add some kind of transparency requirement for paid advising not just paid editing (but wording this in a workable way strikes me as hard)
Barkeep49 (talk) 22:50, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- Can you expound on what your concerns are, and why it is different for an admin as opposed to a non-admin? Wehwalt (talk) 22:55, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the question. My concern is that we have to take people at their word that all they're doing is advising - I would much prefer a trust but verify (through transparency) system. And it's because of the tools that admins have that others don't to help clients, ranging from the not really a problem (viewing deleted content) to full on sanctioning someone who edits against their clients interests, that it strikes me as more of a problem for admin than other users. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:59, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- If an admin blocks someone on behalf of a client, then they are making a paid contribution and would have to conform to the paid-contribution disclosure requirements. Perhaps any use of administrative privileges should be considered to be a contribution for purposes of the terms of use? There is a financial conflict of interest with being paid for advice; I agree that figuring out how to compel disclosure in this case is difficult.
- I'm having difficulty, though, trying to work out if there a distinction, other than type of client, with the role you are describing versus a Wikipedian-in-residence. In theory this is mutually beneficial, as the client will know from the start how to engage productively with the Wikipedia community, but this depends on the diligence of the advisor. isaacl (talk) 23:23, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the question. My concern is that we have to take people at their word that all they're doing is advising - I would much prefer a trust but verify (through transparency) system. And it's because of the tools that admins have that others don't to help clients, ranging from the not really a problem (viewing deleted content) to full on sanctioning someone who edits against their clients interests, that it strikes me as more of a problem for admin than other users. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:59, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
Add some kind of transparency requirement for paid advising not just paid editing (but wording this in a workable way strikes me as hard)
Does anyone see issues with something likeEditors are required to disclose any payment for or related to activity on the English Wikipedia
? It's broader than just paid advising, but in general I think transparency is a good thing so I don't see an issue with that. BilledMammal (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)- I'm not convinced of the need, but if some policy were put in place, we'd need to cement what counts as "advising". Sure, being a consultant for EvilCorp would, but would teaching Wikipedia Editing 201 at EvilU (and in that case, who needs to be reported, EvilU who paid directly, or the students who were advised and funded it with their tuition?) Would writing a How Edit Wikipedia book for EvilPub count? If in the course of her regular workday in the EvilCorp communications dept, Brenda Admin is asked "how do we change our Wikipedia page to say we make solutions?" and Brenda tells them "you don't", does Brenda now have to make such an announcement? There is much fuzziness here. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- I've had to be Brenda. It sucked. It wasn't even me who let management know I was an editor; I'm not sure whether they knew I was an admin. I just wish I'd been brave enough to push the A7 button myself. —Cryptic 23:50, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- I've been aware of this admin for some time. My main concern has been that this creates a problem for them - having been paid in regard to Wikipedia advice, they have an ongoing undisclosed COI with those topics. This is workable, but it gets tricky when their clients have hired paid editors in the past and may do so in the future after seeking their advice when they are aware of this, but now they are in a difficult position. I know of other cases where editors have advised clients on Upwork and as a result of that advise the clients have hired banned editors to edit on their behalf, and I am aware that at least one of the clients who have hired this admin has also hired multiple paid editors in the past. - Bilby (talk) 23:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- Like all COIs, it only needs announcement if they are editing (or administering) in their COI areas, which are already covered by existing policy. We all have COIs for some area, so the idea that these people will now have COIs for other ones doesn't strike me as a change of general status. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 00:21, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- I agree. I don't see a need to disclose a COI unless you are editing articles related to that COI, but effectively creating COIs with articles where there has been violations of policy in the past is creating a difficult position for yourself as an admin. Especially when through consulting you will be made aware of paid editing that has happened on articles where you now have a COI, and you will likely become aware of paid editing that happens on those articles after you consult. - Bilby (talk) 00:52, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Yes. I feel like you put yourself in a position where you are 100% fine or you are deyssopped and possibly banned. Those are pretty extreme outcomes and it's why I'm wondering if some additional transparency helps create middle ground. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:23, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Bilby is touching on the most likely and troubling scenario if said Admin is advising MegaCompany, AspiringCeleb or whoever. The likely next step will involve paid article editing by a paid editor account; this will happen in the Admin's line of sight, but without their hands on the keyboard. Clearly, if another editor challenged/reverted the paid editor's changes, defensive action by the Admin may be sought by their sponsor, and must be resisted (or they must be de-sysopped). But if the paid edits remain unnoticed by others, what then? No COI action has touched their keyboard, but doesn't the Admin bear some responsibility for their inaction to defend the overall integrity? This is a swamp, best avoided. AllyD (talk) 06:59, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- I agree. I don't see a need to disclose a COI unless you are editing articles related to that COI, but effectively creating COIs with articles where there has been violations of policy in the past is creating a difficult position for yourself as an admin. Especially when through consulting you will be made aware of paid editing that has happened on articles where you now have a COI, and you will likely become aware of paid editing that happens on those articles after you consult. - Bilby (talk) 00:52, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Like all COIs, it only needs announcement if they are editing (or administering) in their COI areas, which are already covered by existing policy. We all have COIs for some area, so the idea that these people will now have COIs for other ones doesn't strike me as a change of general status. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 00:21, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- What is "advising"? If someone buys a copy of my hypothetical new book How to Edit Wikipedia, is that a declarable COI? Admins certainly shouldn't be revealing deleted articles for cash (even if obtainable for free from your favourite archive site) but that seems like mop abuse rather than "advising". Certes (talk) 23:15, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
Do others see this as an issue as well?
- Yes, this strikes me as a self-evidently bad thing.If so what should we do in response?
- I do not think admins have any business making money off of their adminship. Period. Paid editing, or marketing oneself as a Wikipedia expert for financial gain, should be strictly prohibited for administrators. That is my two cents. Pecopteris (talk) 23:17, 12 September 2023 (UTC)- I agree. If an admin wishes to make money from paid editing, they should divest themselves of their mop before doing so. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:27, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- Pecopteris is on the right track but I would go further. Admins should be role-modelling the highest standards of conduct. It's not good enough merely to not break rules - they should be morally beyond reproach. Adminship is a privileged position, and using that position for financial gain has the potential to bring the project into disrepute, even if done in good faith, and even if no edits are made. This is not a million miles away from cash for access, which is widely regarded as scandalous. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 19:10, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- I pretty much agree with Pecopteris. Edward-Woodrow :) [talk] 23:25, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- Do you see this as including getting an honorarium for speaking? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:26, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- This has been discussed a bit with the functionaries, so I know a little more than barkeep49 has said, although I'm not privy to all of the details. Promotional editing is a big business, and those who run those sorts of businesses are always looking for an edge. Having an admin on your team is certainly a coveted asset for these people. I've been solicited off-wiki for my admin services, and I would imagine most admins could tell similar stories.
- For sure, experts in all fields hire themselves out as consultants. Pharmaceutical companies hire retired FDA people to help them with regulatory issues. Likewise aircraft manufacturers hire FAA people to help with regulatory issues, and so on. This is all completely legit. These people come with knowledge and experience (not to mention contacts) which can only be gained by having been on the inside. But the common aspect here is that these people only go into private industry after they leave their government jobs. What's happening here is a sitting admin is offering their services for hire. Even if they're not providing direct tools-for-hire services, part of what they're selling is that they do have the tools (i.e. the ad on upwork directly states that they are an admin, even if it also states that they won't use those tools for hire).
- I'd be much more comfortable if an admin decided they wanted to go into private consulting and resigned their bit to do so. They could still advertise that they're selling their experience and knowledge, but there would be a bright line in the sand that they're not selling their admin services. At the very least, they should publicly disclose that they're doing so. WMF:Policy:Terms of Use (under "Paid Contributions Without Disclosure") says
You must disclose each and any employer, client, intended beneficiary and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation.
We could wiki-lawyer about whether providing consulting services that don't include on-wiki editing is covered by this, but I think it is certainly within the spirit of what was intended. RoySmith (talk) 23:48, 12 September 2023 (UTC)- Ideally, there would be no paid editing. Returning to the real world, we should not allow editors to accept payment for using any significant privilege. What is "significant"? Certainly, anything that requires the sysop bit. Probably not autoconfirmed, which anyone can obtain easily. Probably most other hats such as new page reviewer or template editor. Extended-confirmed and autopatrolled may be borderline. Certes (talk) 00:14, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Just as a general principle, I don't think autopatrolled should be used for paid editing; such articles need the extra scrutiny provided by NPP. BilledMammal (talk) 00:18, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Ideally, there would be no paid editing. Returning to the real world, we should not allow editors to accept payment for using any significant privilege. What is "significant"? Certainly, anything that requires the sysop bit. Probably not autoconfirmed, which anyone can obtain easily. Probably most other hats such as new page reviewer or template editor. Extended-confirmed and autopatrolled may be borderline. Certes (talk) 00:14, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Just a note on the last few replies, this is not about paid editing. This is about advising people on how to edit. We are not discussing admins who might take money for edits. Primefac (talk) 07:24, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- S Marshall's thoughts:
- Advising people about how to make appropriate, policy-compliant edits to Wikipedia is a good thing.
- It's also appropriate behaviour for a sysop. We expect sysops to do this on people's talk pages.
- It's not for us to police someone's earnings. Our only proper concern is inappropriate on-wiki behaviour.
- There are good reasons why we need people to disclose on-wiki when they're getting paid for Wikipedia-related work.
- Therefore this sysop should disclose (1) the fact that they're consulting and (2) which articles and topic areas are involved.
- And that should be sufficient.—S Marshall T/C 08:34, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- We did stray onto activities which require privileges but are not edits, such as viewing deleted pages. That's an example of "using any significant privilege" for which we may wish to prohibit payment. Certes (talk) 09:55, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- In general I agree with S Marshall, but I feel we need to be clear about how this impacts things like Wikimedians in residence, editathons, etc. There are also many other questions, such as what about $corp paying an someone to teach someone how to edit in accordance with all the relevant policies? Does it make a difference if it's just expenses? Is doing something like viewing a deleted article to advise what sources it used "inappropriate on-wiki behaviour"? If this admin is advising someone about editing in a given subject area is it inappropriate if they use their admin tools to revert obvious vandalism in that topic area? What about if they are giving advice about editing generally rather than in a specific topic area? What if an article in their client's field is (semi-)protected due to vandalism and the admin edits through that protection to fix a typo on behalf of their client? Or to add a requested citation? How long after the relationship with the client ends does the COI last? Thryduulf (talk) 11:39, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with all of these points Thryduulf, though I will note that some of them also apply to traditional paid editing and even just COI - for instance how long does it last for. In other words if someone works for a company for a year at age 23, when they're 25 they still have a COI. Do they still at 30? 50? 70? Barkeep49 (talk) 14:35, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
There are at least four questions here:
- What counts as paid advising, and how do our policies on transparency/disclosure regarding paid editing apply to it?
- This is complicated, but if pressed for a simple answer I'd say our policies on paid editing simply don't apply. If you're not editing, you can't be paid editing.
- Does a COI need to be disclosed even if someone never edits a related topic?
- No. You only need to disclose a COI as it relates to your on-wiki editing. The policy is the "conflict of interest editing" policy, after all. Do we all need to disclose our employers because we might someday write about them? Do you need a list of my family and friends in case I write about them? No. Disclosure needs to happen as soon as you start making edits that change or otherwise influence the subject.
- Is it ever ok to use admin tools in the service of paid editing or paid advising?
- No. I'd carve out an exception for "obviously uncontroversial" things like maybe responding to a revdel request of doxing, but doing this would be dancing on the edge of a razor given the amount of discomfort such an act would cause in principle. Get a different admin to do it, and disclose your COI when you do.
- Should the trust inherent in adminship and the specter of a conflict of interest bar an admin from paid advising?
- No. This all feels yucky because everything at the intersection of money and Wikipedia feels yucky. At the end of the day, companies and individuals are going to try to influence Wikipedia, so let them do it in the best possible way: advised by an experienced user telling them how to go about it properly and stopping short of paid editing. We should want that to be the pipeline so that they don't go and hire some blackhat operation or otherwise make a mess and waste people's time. Whether it's an admin or not doesn't really change anything except in the community's perception. We put a lot of trust in admins, so hold them to a higher standard. But we need admins and we need experienced users and we need people who can tell a company how to properly engage with Wikipedia. As long as someone is doing all that without actually paid editing and discloses any COI if they do edit those topics, I say go for it. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:31, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- I agree our policies don't currently apply to paid advising. I am suggesting that we need some new policies or guidelines, at least for admins, when it comes to paid advising. And right now, because our policies don't apply, there is no mandate towards transparency/disclosure which is also what I think should be desire. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:36, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- I'd disagree. We cannot and should not try to control what people do outside of Wikipedia. If someone's providing advice, for pay or for free, and never ever edits with a COI, they should not have to disclose that just like they shouldn't have to disclose all of the many other hypothetical COIs they have on topics they don't edit. This is a principled but impractical intervention for the sake of feeling safe. It will discourage interactions that get companies to do things properly for fear of being tainted by the scarlet PE or COI, even when no PE or COI is taking place. We do not need more impediments to adminship, and we do not need more motivation for companies to do the wrong thing. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:45, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with all of this comment. I can see why the concern came up but I see no need for new guidelines or disclosure requirements. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:33, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- I'd disagree. We cannot and should not try to control what people do outside of Wikipedia. If someone's providing advice, for pay or for free, and never ever edits with a COI, they should not have to disclose that just like they shouldn't have to disclose all of the many other hypothetical COIs they have on topics they don't edit. This is a principled but impractical intervention for the sake of feeling safe. It will discourage interactions that get companies to do things properly for fear of being tainted by the scarlet PE or COI, even when no PE or COI is taking place. We do not need more impediments to adminship, and we do not need more motivation for companies to do the wrong thing. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:45, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Regarding points 1 and 2, note that the terms of use specify the need to disclose paid contributions, which can encompass actions altering the Wikipedia database beyond editing. With that caveat, I agree the paid-contribution disclosure policy doesn't cover advice, and the conflict of interest guideline doesn't require disclosure unless the editor is involved in trying to change the content of a related article. isaacl (talk) 15:47, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- I agree our policies don't currently apply to paid advising. I am suggesting that we need some new policies or guidelines, at least for admins, when it comes to paid advising. And right now, because our policies don't apply, there is no mandate towards transparency/disclosure which is also what I think should be desire. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:36, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- We've seen a fair amount of text on talk pages, noticeboards, and the like, about paid editing and COI. I'll let others try to figure that out. But where I think we likely all agree is that no one should be using any granted tool/user-right ability as a result of being paid for the action. At best, it's WP:MEAT. I don't want to try to think about "at worst". - jc37 14:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- True, but this is more or less covered by WP:TOOLMISUSE already. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Sure, but I think it was worth (re-)saying, in the context of this discussion. That regardless of where things fall concerning paid-editing/COI, that there's still a bright line to not be crossed. - jc37 19:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- True, but this is more or less covered by WP:TOOLMISUSE already. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
Throwing an idea out there: a list of people that the English Wikipedia endorses as capable of advising in this capacity, and a set of requirements to be included in such a list. Some of those requirements could deal with transparency. So, you can go off and advise for pay, and you're not required to disclose unless your on-wiki editing intersects with your clients, but you won't be included in the list of preferred consultants if you don't disclose. I feel like this has been floated with regard to paid editing in the past, though I can't recall what came of it... — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:45, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- There is a list of paid editors at Wikipedia:WikiProject Integrity/Editor Registry, but it is updated very infrequently. isaacl (talk) 15:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- I would suspect that if we were to go down that road, either there would be no consensus on the qualifications, or those who are greatly concerned about this issue would make the requirements so arduous and fraught with possible penalties that no one would care to use it. None of which would stop whatever is going on from going on, of course, whether harmful or innocuous. Wehwalt (talk) 15:55, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- This was a thought that I had, too. Probably the sort of thing that would be best written collaboratively among a few and then voted on rather than put together piecemeal. I don't think it's impossible that something useful could come of it, though, since it's inevitably less fraught than paid editing. It's an unfortunate reality that the hardliners who naively think money and Wikipedia should never intersect (and thus must never intersect) ruin so many attempts to create pathways to do it responsibly, and thus push people into the darkness. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:16, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Is this functionally different from the behaviour discussed in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct of Mister Wiki editors? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- If there's a middle ground here its for *retired* admins, there is no good way to make a system in which an active admin is giving paid advice (in the same way that a retired senior civil service bureaucrat can consult/advise those with business before the government, but an active one can't). Unpaid advice is fine given the provision that free advice is worth the price you paid and banning it would seem to be unduly onerous to the social lives of Wikipedians. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:59, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Admins must not advise for pay while they are administrators. Resign first.
- Very simple bright line.
- I’m surprised we’re discussing any alternatives.
- —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:09, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- Any editor being paid to advise others on Wikipedia editing must disclose their conflict of interest and the name of their clients.
- This is another simple bright line.
- —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:12, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, you’re on the Arbitration Committee. You all need to confront this admin. Give them these 3 choices from which to pick:
- Stop this work and disclose who they’ve worked for to date. They can stay an admin.
- Resign their adminship and they can continue advising clients for pay. They must publicly disclose current and former clients
- ArbCom takes matters into its hands and desysops this person. ArbCom publicizes the COI.
- If this feels awkward and embarrassing for this admin, so be it. I see the choices above as generous; other community members might argue for desysopping no matter whether they stop. Still others might say ban them outright.
- The community must be able to trust all its administrations … as well as ArbCom.
- —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:35, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Another Believer there is no policy or guideline this admin has broken. Mandatory disclosure under our current rules is required only if there has been paid editing. This admin says (and there is zero evidence to suggest otherwise) that they have not edited, used the tools, etc. They have instead offered advise and suggestions off-wiki. It's precisely because there is this gap between what we allow and what I think we should allow that I started this conversation. Best Barkeep49 (talk) 15:44, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- (ec) This sounds good, but I think the principles you're invoking -- payment vs. transparency -- don't actually break down in the way you're implying. I work for a company whose founder has an article on Wikipedia, and there's a controversy about the founder that has made it into national papers multiple times. I'm paid by that company. If the CEO asks me how to edit the article to reflect his view of the founder, and I tell him about the COI rules, I've advised him (that is, I've told him he should do no such thing). Are you saying I should then post a COI note on my user page? (I've not posted any such note to date because I have no intention of ever editing that or any article with which I might have a COI.). If I told him how to subvert the rules, sure, I'm a bad person. But the problem with that is not that it's advice, it's that it's advice that goes against the Wikipedia ethos. I suppose you could argue that one should disclose a COI if one plans to advise one's clients how to get around Wikipedia rules but that's unlikely to be useful. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:41, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- If you’re asked to give advice, do what you’re told and send ArbCom a note. Disclose on your user page that you are an employee of the XYZ Corp.
- Disclosing your employment before you’re asked to make any actual edits may head off your boss later asking you to edit. You can just say, “everybody already knows I work for XYZ - they’ll immediately revert my edits.”
- If your boss still coerces you into making actual edits, resign as an administrator.
- —A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 04:03, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not an administrator, by the way; I was responding to the part of your post where you argued that your points applied to non-admins too, though I would make the same case for admins. Your suggested actions go beyond what is in the COI guideline. I'd have no problem following your advice if it were in that guideline, and I might even do so without that being so, but as it stands I see no basis for arguing that editors must do as you outline. I think you'd have to propose and pass changes to the COI guideline to address this situation before you could fairly make the categorical statements you make above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 04:22, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- Disclosing that youre an employee of a specific company, in many cases is equivalent to outing yourself. We don't require that nor should we. (t · c) buidhe 05:52, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- ????? emphasis mine:
Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships.
ltbdl (talk) 06:47, 14 September 2023 (UTC)- @Ltbdl emphasis mine:
Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers, or your financial and other relationships.
. Giving advice is not editing and it is not contributing. I strongly agree with buidhe that we do not and should not require an editor to out themselves. Especially just because someone else asked them to do something that did not involve being paid. Thryduulf (talk) 08:29, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Ltbdl emphasis mine:
- ????? emphasis mine:
- Disclosing that youre an employee of a specific company, in many cases is equivalent to outing yourself. We don't require that nor should we. (t · c) buidhe 05:52, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- As another example, I was asked whether I could write an article about a person we both knew who had recently died. I explained the notability policy and my belief that subject would be unlikely to pass it. The person understood that and nothing more was said. Under your rules, if the person asking and/or the subject was my employer I would be required to out myself, declare I'd been giving paid advice and possibly resign my adminship. That is grossly disproportionate. Thryduulf (talk) 08:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- I do not think there is a single Wikipedia policy which would require a user to disclose who their employer is. What policies require is to disclose a COI without specifying the nature of the COI. (And I would certainly not advise of listing an employer at the user page; for a while I was saying on my user page that I am a full professor at one of the top universities in the Netherlands; this was enough for some persistent users to find my professional e-mail and send some mails using it, to which I never respond as a matter of principle, and resulted in at least one case of serious harassment). Ymblanter (talk) 14:10, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not an administrator, by the way; I was responding to the part of your post where you argued that your points applied to non-admins too, though I would make the same case for admins. Your suggested actions go beyond what is in the COI guideline. I'd have no problem following your advice if it were in that guideline, and I might even do so without that being so, but as it stands I see no basis for arguing that editors must do as you outline. I think you'd have to propose and pass changes to the COI guideline to address this situation before you could fairly make the categorical statements you make above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 04:22, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, you’re on the Arbitration Committee. You all need to confront this admin. Give them these 3 choices from which to pick:
- So. I'm an admin, and have been for years. I'm also a functionary, a member of the WMF Communications Committee, and a bunch of other things. Over the course of many years, I've been asked to speak at various conferences, including ones that aren't directly related to the Wikimedia movement, although my topic was specific to some aspect of the movement. In some of those cases, I have received an honorarium; not always, and it's never been that significant. If it is an online matter, or I didn't have expenses, I've usually had the honorarium donated to the WMF. But when I do have expenses, I am more inclined to keep it (or at least as much of it as covers my personal costs). At every single place where I have spoken, I have been asked plenty of questions about how to do things on Wikipedia: create an article, what kinds of things are needed, how we deal with COI, how we deal with disinformation, who does the editing, what is our structure...the list could be infinite. In most of these cases, I don't think there's much of a different answer to these questions if I'm answering them at an official Wikimedia event than if it's in another forum. So...would this constitute paid advising? Should I stop answering questions that could potentially bring us new editors with new expertise? There are many other people who are or have been in that position; not answering questions about Wikipedia seems to defeat the purpose of this outreach. This is a real question.
I think that we need to be a little more cautious in how we think about these things, and accept that there are grey areas. There are those who believe that scholarships paid with movement money turn people into paid editors. There are those who think anything less than the level of abuse exhibited by Orangemoody-type editors (i.e., claiming to be specific admins and/or editors, demanding money to keep articles, etc.) is probably okay. I think it's probably somewhere in the middle, but the middle can get awfully muddy. Risker (talk) 05:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- Most of the problems here are in the area Thryduulf has pointed out. But really the core issue is with the admin policy and it being out of date with how COI's effectively work. If we want to eliminate COI impacts on admin tool use, then the requirements for having advanced tools (in the admin policy) need to be tightened up to explicitly say "You cant accept money or other considerations in return for wikipedia-related work in any form. If you wish to do so, you cannot have advanced tools". It would eliminate any and all COI issues with admin's who may *potentially* have issues, because they wont be admins. It would also eliminate our issue with employees of the WMF and their unresolvable COI. The alternative is dicking around with the COI guideline playing whack-a-mole while people find new ways to grift. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:36, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
You cant accept money or other considerations in return for wikipedia-related work in any form
would prohibit any admins from working for the WMF, Wikimedia chapters or thematic organisations. It would also prohibit them from receiving scholarships grants, scholarships, expenses or even prizes (from the WMF, chapters, etc). Taken literally it would also prohibit them from eating food at any Wikimedia-related event they didn't pay for directly. That is not the goal of the rules regarding conflicts of interest and is much broader than the last consensus I am aware of believed should be prohibited. Thryduulf (talk) 08:45, 14 September 2023 (UTC)- And it would also disincentivize or even bar good strong editors who may already be giving Wikipedia classes, giving sound and proper advice at work, and so forth, from becoming admins, a process that is already too fraught. The assumption that someone who has become an admin is going to do evil if they accept money for giving advice (and let us be clear, giving advice is a good thing and should be encouraged) is strange and bleak; the assumption that an admin who intends to do evil for money is going to announce it is, in contrast, oddly utopian. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 12:43, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- "You cant accept money or other considerations in return for wikipedia-related work in any form would prohibit any admins from working for the WMF, Wikimedia chapters or thematic organisations." Yes thats exactly right. They can volunteer for them, but they cant work for them. The point of a COI is that a conflict of interest arises when you can be forced to put one interest over another. As soon as money (or other renumeration) enters the equation, the threat of withdrawing it also does. If you wanted to narrow it down, you could limit it to employees, contractors or those offering paid services in relation to wikipedia. But it would eventually just devolve into arguments over what is pay or not, or disguising obvious fees. We should have already banned employees of the WMF from holding advanced tools on a non-staff account as soon as the UCoC reared its head because that COI is just not resolveable. Almost zero of the activities offered to third party organisations require the admin suite of tools, and of our current admin corps, (outside of those directly employed by the WMF) how many regularly do any sort of renumerated wikipedia related work? I bet its dwarfed by the amount of people who do actually perform wikipedia-related paid work who would never pass RFA (or have even had their tools removed previously). RE Nat: The assumption isnt that someone who accepts money is intending to do evil, the point of a COI is that people with otherwise good intentions can be forced to perform actions under threat - because of the money changing hands. "Do this or I dont pay you" works perfectly well on otherwise good people with good intentions when they have bills to pay. Its a risk assessment, when someone is given advanced tools it is based on the risk of them abusing them. Their past editing history, their actions, personality etc. As soon as there is a COI, that risk jumps exponentially because that assessment is now completely invalid, it doesnt matter if they are a good and decent person with only the best interests of the encypedia at heart, if they work for an organisastion that only has contempt and sees it as a trough to snuffle their snouts in. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:23, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- My employment contract doesn't say I can be fired for explaining to a competitor how to hack our systems and get our confidential data; it doesn't need to. If I did that and was found out, I'd be fired. Until then, my company assumes I will behave appropriately, but retains the right to fire for cause if it decides to do so. In the same way if we find out that someone is doing something inappropriate we discuss banning or blocking them. Creating policies that legislate what our editors and admins can do off-wiki is unnecessary, and for those who don't want their real identities known is another disincentive as it means part of one's offline life would be relevant to discussions about one's behaviour online. We don't give the admin bit to editors we think will behave in the ways we're discussing here, and for regular editors the rule is AGF anyway. Adding offwiki elements to the COI guideline would be intrusive and wouldn't actually give us any more power or provide any more behaviour guidance than we have now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:14, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- Agree with this. Several in this thread are basically assuming our admins are just waiting for an opportunity to be corrupt and betray everyone's trust. That's a bad basis for writing policy. If there's evidence of violating policy, do something; if not, don't. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:01, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
- My employment contract doesn't say I can be fired for explaining to a competitor how to hack our systems and get our confidential data; it doesn't need to. If I did that and was found out, I'd be fired. Until then, my company assumes I will behave appropriately, but retains the right to fire for cause if it decides to do so. In the same way if we find out that someone is doing something inappropriate we discuss banning or blocking them. Creating policies that legislate what our editors and admins can do off-wiki is unnecessary, and for those who don't want their real identities known is another disincentive as it means part of one's offline life would be relevant to discussions about one's behaviour online. We don't give the admin bit to editors we think will behave in the ways we're discussing here, and for regular editors the rule is AGF anyway. Adding offwiki elements to the COI guideline would be intrusive and wouldn't actually give us any more power or provide any more behaviour guidance than we have now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:14, 14 September 2023 (UTC)