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Any necessary improvements should be made to the original, {{Tl|Infobox Eurovision}}, based on {{tl|Infobox}}, then that template renamed over this one (albeit with corrected capitalisation); leaving a redirect, rather than the recent and unnecessary practice of manually replacing templates ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eurovision_Song_Contest_2015&diff=prev&oldid=638507688], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eurovision_Song_Contest_1956&diff=prev&oldid=638505835] etc.). <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 17:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' + renaming of {{t|Infobox Eurovision}}, keeping the history intact. -- '''<nowiki>[[</nowiki>''' [[User:AxG|<font color=#000 face="SwissMad, Arial">axg</font>]][[Special:Contributions/AxG|<font color=#4169E1> '''//''' </font>]][[User talk:AxG|<font color=#000>✉</font>]]''' <nowiki>]]</nowiki>''' 17:43, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
* Yeah, the responsible party needs cluebatted here. If someone points me at whatever changes are required to fix the original so that the various forks are unneeded I'll see if I can do it (along with {{tl|infobox}}ing it). Obviously all the bulk-edits should be undone in the interim. [[User:Thumperward|Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward)]] ([[User talk:Thumperward|talk]]) 17:41, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support deletion''' again. For all the same reasons as the last go-around. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|<font color="purple">(talk)</font>]]</sup> 23:20, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
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* '''Comment''' - Attribution is hardy a major issue - the new and old templates can have their histories easily merged through use of the delete/move buttons. There is no need for a whole load of drama over it. As for the new template itself, it's unfortunate that those complaining about how it was created, its quality etc. didn't make more detailed or helpful suggestions earlier on how they wanted. [[User:CT Cooper|CT Cooper]]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> [[User talk:CT Cooper|talk]]</small> 01:08, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
** {{Ping|Thumperward}} There has been no copy/paste as such. I got in contact with AxG via his talk page [[User talk:AxG#Universal infoboxes for Project Eurovision]], as I am not very good at creating infoboxes myself (all the #if codes are somewhat confusing to me). Anyhow, as I knew that AxG was the creator of {{t|Infobox Eurovision}}, I felt it was only fair to contact him and see if he could work on a new universal version, which was recommended at the TfD of 6 December and at the project talk page. AxG built the new coding in his sandbox ([[User:AxG/Sandbox/12]]) and at his talk page he stated it was finished and was ready to be transferred to the new template space - which is what was done. Seeing as I was given permission by the creator to carry out this action, then I do not understand how A) I am being [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2014_December_6&curid=44612304&diff=638687416&oldid=638655690 accused of plagiarism by Andy] when permission was granted to me to copy the new code to the new template space. And B) why this template has even been put up for nomination, when Andy was one of the parties who actually suggested that a new universal template be created. Even an admin at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FEnforcement&diff=638648144&oldid=638647700 AE] notes that {{tq|"nominating the replacement template for deletion after suggesting it does sound a bit silly"}}. Had it not been that I mentioned this new template was now created via the TFd of 6 December, then Andy would not have known of its existence - so he is clearly demonstrating stalking of some kind by finding things I've created, and nominating them for deletion with intent to cause distress and fuel up more heated tension and debates. He also started to edit war on the project page, of which A) he is not a member of, and B) an admin also tells him that "the project decides what templates to display" and to "butt out". This nom is just a waste of time and purely disruptive. <span style="font-family:Corbel;text-shadow:#F70 2px 4px 6px;">'''[[User:Wesley Mouse|<span style="color:#1034A6">Wes Mouse</span>]] | <sup>[[User talk:Wesley Mouse|<span style="color:#AA0114">T@lk</span>]]'''</sup></span> 10:14, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
*** It is readily apparent from even a cursory inspection of the source code and history that {{t|Infobox song contest} is copied from {{Tl|Infobox Eurovsion}}; was created by you; and has no attribution. As for your fatuous allegation of stalking and the cited editor's and your own lack of understanding of [[WP:OWN]] and [[WP:LOCALCONSENUS]]... <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 13:18, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
**{{tq|"Attribution is hardy a major issue"}} O really? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 13:18, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Banis]] ====
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Revision as of 13:18, 19 December 2014
December 17
Template:Infobox western riding timed event
- Template:Infobox western riding timed event (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Poorly designed, vertical navbox with only four links; was used on only two articles, now orphaned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Strong support: On behalf of WikiProject Equine. Infobox sport is perfectly adequate and used for all of the other horse sport articles that have infoboxes. (Most should) Montanabw(talk) 23:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Weather/ disaster notices
Template:Current tornado outbreak
- Template:Current tornado outbreak (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Current disaster (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Propose merging Template:Current tornado outbreak with Template:Current disaster.
Both are currently unused due to the lack of disasters getting attention right now. It would be better to have a smaller number of templates to remember when one is actually needed, and there's no need to be so precise in the wording. A smaller number of templates will also make it easier to update the wording across all current disaster templates, as I just had to do. -- Beland (talk) 22:37, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Template:Current tropical cyclone
- Template:Current tropical cyclone (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:Current disaster (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Propose merging Template:Current tropical cyclone with Template:Current disaster.
It's currently a simple call to the other template, and there's no particular need to be more specific. These are actually both unused right now, since there are no current disasters getting a lot of attention. Better to have a smaller number of templates to remember when one does occur and a template needs to be slapped on the article. -- Beland (talk) 21:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Combined discussion
- Delete both weather templates in favour of {{Current}} or {{Current disaster}} as apprpriate. Otherwise, merge the tornado & cyclone templates as, say "Current weather event". Not all weather events are disasters. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Template:Cleanup
- Template:Cleanup (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Previously, the main problem with this template was that it was getting drive-by tagged without the tagger ever explaining what needed cleaning up. This seems to have been at least somewhat remedied by adding a "reason" field… and while people are at least bothering to fill in that field now, I'm still seeing rampant misuse.
A search of some recent transclusions (articles in Category:Articles needing cleanup from December 2014)
- 100 Gigabit Ethernet: "inconsistent use of plurality or singularity for companies as collective nouns" — then use {{copyedit}}
- 1979 New York Mets season: "the section has capitalization, punctuation, and grammatical errors" — again, use {{Copyedit}} or remove that section entirely
- 2014 ATP World Tour and 2014 WTA Tour: "Statistics table has not been updated to reflect the final standings for the 2014 season" — then use {{Update}}
- 991st Field Artillery Battalion: No reason given. Article is only a couple sentence fragments, making its topic completely unclear, so I've tagged it for {{db-context}} instead.
- A.L.B (Watches): "needs putting into paragraphs etc." — again, {{copyedit}} or {{reorganize}}
- A23 virus: "this article has almost no content, and is severely lacking in comparison to similar pages" — replaced with {{context}}
- Melyssa Ade: "Very little BLP information here. Needs more reliable sources". — use {{Missing information}} instead
- Anorexia nervosa: "incomplete citations, wikilinking, manual of style, off-topic or in wrong section (not all content is related to causes), and passive voice (attribution)" — use {{Copyedit}}, {{off topic}}, etc.
- Appeal to emotion: " WP:MOS issues throughout, overquoting, style of writing, wikilinking, curly quotes, citation cleanup ... and more." — again, {{copyedit}}
- Association of Southeast Asian Nations: " There are multiple sections included here that could form individual pages on their own. Inconsistent language, style and grammar used. Suspicions of authors/academics adding their own works in the page without full disclosure" — use {{Split section}}, {{Copyedit}} (which is already on there anyway), and {{COI}}
- Band Famous: "Unencyclopedic tone" — an {{Inappropriate tone}} would be appropriate here, but how about a prod instead since they seem non-notable?
I could go on and on, but the template's problems are still manifold. This template seems to fall under the same pitfalls as the deprecated {{wikify}} or {{expand}}, in that it's too broad in scope. Many in previous AFD's argued that WP:ITSUSEFUL which makes no sense. Most of the arguments in the last AFD in 2012 were suggesting that the "reason" field be made mandatory. But the samplings above show that, even if the "reason" field is used, there is always at least one other template that gives the exact same message.
In short, the template is way too broad and vague to serve a specific purpose anymore. 99.9% forms of cleanup have their own template, so there's no reason to shoehorn something like "this article needs copy editing" into this generic template. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 21:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: Having a single well-known template with a free-text "reason" parameter makes it easy for editors to tag articles, without sorting through a bewildering array of tags. It doesn't matter to me what the tag is, as long as it's tagged with something, so it gets noticed by cleanup editors and warns/apologizes to readers. -- Beland (talk) 21:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per Beland WP:NOTBURO, Wikipedia should not be a bureaucracy, making all editors know every kind of cleanup template is bureaucratic. Instead editors versed in the cleanup message system can go through and replace cleanup as necessary with more specific templates, as editors already do with {{stub}} template trees. Further, expecting that all possible cases of cleanup are covered by some existing template is folly, there's no mathematical way anyone can prove such an assertion (a mathematically complete proof), since it would require knowing every single way an article can fail (one would have to prove there are no unknown unknowns, and no known unknowns). -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 05:14, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
Template:SBL team
- Template:SBL team (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
The template is only used in one location, where it could be replaced by Template:Infobox basketball club. Diannaa (talk) 21:05, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Delete as redundant,
after replacingnow orphaned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Template:Infobox Song Contest
- Template:Infobox Song Contest (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
An unnecessary fork of {{Infobox Eurovision}}, intended to pre-empt discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 December 6#Template:Infobox ABU Radio (and possibly wider discussions at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 December 6#Song contest templates). This new template gives no credit to the creators of the earlier version, including significant contributions by User:Thumperward.
Any necessary improvements should be made to the original, {{Infobox Eurovision}}, based on {{Infobox}}, then that template renamed over this one (albeit with corrected capitalisation); leaving a redirect, rather than the recent and unnecessary practice of manually replacing templates ([1], [2] etc.). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Delete + renaming of {{Infobox Eurovision}}, keeping the history intact. -- [[ axg // ✉ ]] 17:43, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, the responsible party needs cluebatted here. If someone points me at whatever changes are required to fix the original so that the various forks are unneeded I'll see if I can do it (along with {{infobox}}ing it). Obviously all the bulk-edits should be undone in the interim. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 17:41, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Support deletion again. For all the same reasons as the last go-around. Montanabw(talk) 23:20, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
- Keep considering it was already apparent from the discussions of 6 December that this infobox is the new universal replacement of {{Infobox Eurovision}} - and it was actually suggested to make such universal box by none other than Pigsonthewing. And I think it may need to be reminded that the nominator actually has a ArbCom sanction on himself regarding discussion of infoboxes - of which can result in a year-long block. Andrew even stated in the discussions of 6 December, that the other nominated infoboxes would not be deleted until the replacement was ready and rolled out. This is the replacement. Wes Mouse | T@lk 11:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- If you feel I'm in breach of a sanction, please raise the matter at WP:AE (although note that similar attempts to use that to silence deletion discussions have failed). Otherwise, you are just making ad hominem attacks. Who is "Andrew"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:50, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Don't be pedantic, you know as well as anyone else does, that Andrew is the longer version of Andy. And yes, perhaps taking this matter to AE is required. The sanction states that you are not to add, remove, or discuss infoboxes. Creating TfD's is a sly underhanded way of getting around such sanction, as you clearly nominate with the intention of letting someone else delete on your behalf; and thus are skirting around the sanction ruling. Wes Mouse | T@lk 13:05, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- You can take it to AE if you like. As someone who spent a good amount of time cleaning this mess up several years ago, I'm not especially keen to have it discarded by some copy-pasted replacement. This should have been done properly by building on the original code; indeed, it must be done to preserve attribution of the template history. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:11, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Wesley Mouse: I didn't ask you for the derivation of the name "Andrew"; I asked you who the Andrew to whom you addressed your comment is. Also please stop your mass deployment of this new template, until this TfD is resolved. To continue as you are doing is disruptive. (Pinged, so you're aware of this comment). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Pigsonthewing: How is the rollout "disruptive"? Have you forgotten that on 7 December 2014 CT Cooper stated that a new universal template {{Infobox Song Contest}} should be created and replace the problematic "forked" ones. On 7 December 2014 you replied back to CT Cooper by stating
"nothing would be replaced or deleted "until a replacement template is ready"; that's what this discussion is (supposed to be) about"
. A replacement is ready, the replacement has been rolled out so that the nominated templates can be deleted without controversy. If the likes of the predecessor {{Infobox Eurovision}} need to be technically moved into its successor is required, then so be it. I fail to see why you have nominated a new universal design that has been made, following your comments and recommendations from the TFD dated 6 December. Its a bit like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. Wes Mouse | T@lk 14:20, 18 December 2014 (UTC)- It's disruptive, for the reasons given in the deletion ratinonale in this section. Thank you confirming that you are now aware of my request that you desist. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Pigsonthewing: How is the rollout "disruptive"? Have you forgotten that on 7 December 2014 CT Cooper stated that a new universal template {{Infobox Song Contest}} should be created and replace the problematic "forked" ones. On 7 December 2014 you replied back to CT Cooper by stating
- Don't be pedantic, you know as well as anyone else does, that Andrew is the longer version of Andy. And yes, perhaps taking this matter to AE is required. The sanction states that you are not to add, remove, or discuss infoboxes. Creating TfD's is a sly underhanded way of getting around such sanction, as you clearly nominate with the intention of letting someone else delete on your behalf; and thus are skirting around the sanction ruling. Wes Mouse | T@lk 13:05, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- If you feel I'm in breach of a sanction, please raise the matter at WP:AE (although note that similar attempts to use that to silence deletion discussions have failed). Otherwise, you are just making ad hominem attacks. Who is "Andrew"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:50, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - Attribution is hardy a major issue - the new and old templates can have their histories easily merged through use of the delete/move buttons. There is no need for a whole load of drama over it. As for the new template itself, it's unfortunate that those complaining about how it was created, its quality etc. didn't make more detailed or helpful suggestions earlier on how they wanted. CT Cooper · talk 01:08, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Thumperward: There has been no copy/paste as such. I got in contact with AxG via his talk page User talk:AxG#Universal infoboxes for Project Eurovision, as I am not very good at creating infoboxes myself (all the #if codes are somewhat confusing to me). Anyhow, as I knew that AxG was the creator of {{Infobox Eurovision}}, I felt it was only fair to contact him and see if he could work on a new universal version, which was recommended at the TfD of 6 December and at the project talk page. AxG built the new coding in his sandbox (User:AxG/Sandbox/12) and at his talk page he stated it was finished and was ready to be transferred to the new template space - which is what was done. Seeing as I was given permission by the creator to carry out this action, then I do not understand how A) I am being accused of plagiarism by Andy when permission was granted to me to copy the new code to the new template space. And B) why this template has even been put up for nomination, when Andy was one of the parties who actually suggested that a new universal template be created. Even an admin at AE notes that
"nominating the replacement template for deletion after suggesting it does sound a bit silly"
. Had it not been that I mentioned this new template was now created via the TFd of 6 December, then Andy would not have known of its existence - so he is clearly demonstrating stalking of some kind by finding things I've created, and nominating them for deletion with intent to cause distress and fuel up more heated tension and debates. He also started to edit war on the project page, of which A) he is not a member of, and B) an admin also tells him that "the project decides what templates to display" and to "butt out". This nom is just a waste of time and purely disruptive. Wes Mouse | T@lk 10:14, 19 December 2014 (UTC)- It is readily apparent from even a cursory inspection of the source code and history that {{t|Infobox song contest} is copied from {{Infobox Eurovsion}}; was created by you; and has no attribution. As for your fatuous allegation of stalking and the cited editor's and your own lack of understanding of WP:OWN and WP:LOCALCONSENUS... Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:18, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
"Attribution is hardy a major issue"
O really? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:18, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- @Thumperward: There has been no copy/paste as such. I got in contact with AxG via his talk page User talk:AxG#Universal infoboxes for Project Eurovision, as I am not very good at creating infoboxes myself (all the #if codes are somewhat confusing to me). Anyhow, as I knew that AxG was the creator of {{Infobox Eurovision}}, I felt it was only fair to contact him and see if he could work on a new universal version, which was recommended at the TfD of 6 December and at the project talk page. AxG built the new coding in his sandbox (User:AxG/Sandbox/12) and at his talk page he stated it was finished and was ready to be transferred to the new template space - which is what was done. Seeing as I was given permission by the creator to carry out this action, then I do not understand how A) I am being accused of plagiarism by Andy when permission was granted to me to copy the new code to the new template space. And B) why this template has even been put up for nomination, when Andy was one of the parties who actually suggested that a new universal template be created. Even an admin at AE notes that
Template:Banis
- Template:Banis (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Redundant due to Template:Sikhism and Template:Sikh scriptures Vigyanitalkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 00:49, 17 December 2014 (UTC)