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:::::Based on my limited experience, I'd start with those articles with many archives, those with a high degree of contested reverts and those tagged for NPOV, incompleteness, etc. [[User:CasualObserver'48|CasualObserver'48]] ([[User talk:CasualObserver'48|talk]]) 05:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC) |
:::::Based on my limited experience, I'd start with those articles with many archives, those with a high degree of contested reverts and those tagged for NPOV, incompleteness, etc. [[User:CasualObserver'48|CasualObserver'48]] ([[User talk:CasualObserver'48|talk]]) 05:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Object. The scope of this statement is too large. There are many articles on Islam that are undergoing serious issues, but are not (rightfully so) included in this dispute. Those articles, and the editors involved with them, will probably be at ArbCom soon enough, but for now, I don't believe we should suggest that this RfArb case was intended to help resolve the problems on those other articles as well. Additionally, I do not like the idea of identifying users as pro- and anti-Zionist, or pro- and anti-Islamic editors. In fact, I feel this dualism is at the core of the problem with these articles, and most articles that are the subject of heated disputes: an involved editor will often think his or her opponents all have serious bias issues and will therefore proceed to split people into different camps based on what he or she thinks their political or religious positions are. I am strongly against officially suggesting that these camps do in fact exist; people should be encouraged to assume to good faith (within reason of course) and not think everyone is either pro- or anti- something. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 05:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC) |
:::Object. The scope of this statement is too large. There are many articles on Islam that are undergoing serious issues, but are not (rightfully so) included in this dispute. Those articles, and the editors involved with them, will probably be at ArbCom soon enough, but for now, I don't believe we should suggest that this RfArb case was intended to help resolve the problems on those other articles as well. Additionally, I do not like the idea of identifying users as pro- and anti-Zionist, or pro- and anti-Islamic editors. In fact, I feel this dualism is at the core of the problem with these articles, and most articles that are the subject of heated disputes: an involved editor will often think his or her opponents all have serious bias issues and will therefore proceed to split people into different camps based on what he or she thinks their political or religious positions are. I am strongly against officially suggesting that these camps do in fact exist; people should be encouraged to assume to good faith (within reason of course) and not think everyone is either pro- or anti- something. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 05:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC) |
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::::I agree that the Islam-related articles should not be included, for now, unless Israel/Palestine-specific (e.g. Hamas, Hezbullah); it is a whole new can of worms, and within the I-P context, it is a relatively new phenomenon. That is absolutely not to say that some of the listed I-P editors are innocent of disruption there, because there are real problems, but I agree with tariqabjotu, that their time will come. I will also note that I have not seen similar things happening on Judaism-related articles and personally believe that a proponent of one religion should not be editing 'anti-articles' in another religion due to [[COI]], or better yet COG (Conflict of God). |
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::::I also do not like the idea of identifying users as pro- and anti-Zionist, but truely believe that is the way things are (at the extremes) amongst some Wikipedia editors. [[Zionism]] is one specific subject that must be included. It is, by it's original (and unfortunately continually changing) definition, the cause of the I-P conflict and continues (equally with it's anti-side) to perpetuate the conflict. |
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::::Simply stated, Zionism started as a dream to solve one problem, established itself as a movement (1897), was accepted for various (widely different) reasons (1917), grew, struggled, fought and won more that it's original (stated) objective (1948) and became admired in the process. But the Zionist victory caused another problem (stateless Palestinians), which simmers to this day and (at it's extreme) is denied to exist. Zionism realized it's headiest days in 1967 (and defended them in 1973) and in the process made the Palestinian problem more complete. Given that, world diplomacy also set the limits and bounds of what should be used as a basis for a solution (UN242, land for peace, recognized and secure borders, end to terrorism, etc); few of these have yet been met and those most immediately involved are the only ones who can meet them. Likud (militant) [[Revisionist Zionism]] gets freely and convincingly elected in 1977 and Zionist maximalists ascend the world stage, bringing [[Eretz Israel]] into common english language mass media. They remain to this day, while they continue to control all the other land and the other people. Wikipedia editors now define Zionism as 'an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish People in [Eretz Israel]. Please, which Zionism is it? Is it the 1948 borders and [[Post-Zionism]] exists?- or is it the 1967 borders of Eretz Israel and opponents who disagree being either [[new antisemitism|new antisemites]], [[self-hating Jews]] or maybe [[Islamofascism|Islamofascists]]. These neologisms largely exist only because the definition of Zionism is a moving target. |
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::::This is where Wikipedia should (and I believe, must) make some kind of administrative, and admittedly POV, pro-peace decision. Otherwise, Wikipedia is so NPOV that it can't/won't decide whether peace or the alternative is right or better. Peace. [[User:CasualObserver'48|CasualObserver'48]] ([[User talk:CasualObserver'48|talk]]) 07:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 07:44, 12 January 2008
This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.
Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators may edit, for voting.
Motions and requests by the parties
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Proposed temporary injunctions
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Questions to the parties
Question by HG
N.B. These are "proposed questions" insofar as I recommend that an ArbCom member ask them.
Rationale: Concerns/insinuations have been raised about conflicts-of-interest of involved parties. It’d be helpful to gauge whether any conflicts-of-interest may be contributing to the I-P disputes and, if so, whether the remedies should address COI. At the same time, improper accusations should be put to rest. Accordingly, it’s fitting to question those parties engaged in “battleground” incidents about COI. It’d be best for these questions to be posed across-the-board by a neutral party. While I may be sufficiently neutral to ask such questions, I’d prefer and propose that, given their official capacity, an ArbCom member ask these questions. Thanks, HG | Talk 16:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed questions: What conflicts-of-interest do you have when working on articles about Israeli or Palestinian topics? (For this question, please include Arab, Islamic and Jewish topics.) Specifically: Is any of your Wikipedia editing an aspect of paid or volunteer work for an NGO or governmental group? Do you knowingly receive any guidance or information about Wikipedia editing from any NGO or governmental group/representatives? Affirmative answers need not disqualify you from editing. You may answer on-wiki or through a private email to ArbCom. (Draft by HG | Talk 16:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Arbcom rarely concerns itself with why an editor is disruptive. Editors who behave themselves and edit collaboratively are welcome; editors who edit combatively are not. Thatcher 17:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Fair enough. But the innuendos are being floated, with attempts as substantiation. Although no individuals have been accused (I think), wouldn't it be better to clear the air? Thanks for your response. HG | Talk 18:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see any reason to reward the purveyors of innuendo by asking editors to sign what amounts to a loyalty oath. Thatcher 18:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Good point. From that standpoint, we should focus on halting the insinuations, etc., and we should assume the good faith of combative editors. Still, I suppose that, by virtue of editing WP, all editors are implicitly agreeing to abide by the COI guidelines. Might it be helpful for a principle to specify the COI expectations as it applies to this case? HG | Talk 19:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see any reason to reward the purveyors of innuendo by asking editors to sign what amounts to a loyalty oath. Thatcher 18:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Fair enough. But the innuendos are being floated, with attempts as substantiation. Although no individuals have been accused (I think), wouldn't it be better to clear the air? Thanks for your response. HG | Talk 18:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed final decision
Proposals by User:ChrisO
Proposed Principles
Recidivism
1) Users who have been sanctioned for improper conduct are expected to avoid repeating it should they continue to participate in the project. Failure to do so may lead to the imposition of increasingly severe sanctions.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Improper use of editing tools
2) Wikipedia editing tools such as Twinkle are provided to assist users in common Wikipedia maintenance tasks and to help to repair acts of vandalism. They should be used with caution and restraint. Rollback functionality should not be used to perform any revert which ought ordinarily to be explained, such as a revert of a good-faith content edit.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Purpose of Wikipedia: user pages
3) The purpose of user pages is to aid in encyclopedic collaboration. In keeping with the purpose of Wikipedia, user pages may not be used for displaying religious, ethnic, national, or racial propaganda.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- In principle I would cautiously support such a proposal, but in practice I suspect that it would become an excuse to stamp out some types of "propaganda" while tolerating others, based mainly on systemic political and cultural biases. <eleland/talkedits> 00:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Proposed. As we've seen with the recent controversy over Hezbollah user boxes, the use of user pages to display controversial slogans and logos doesn't aid a harmonious editing environment. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose. Unrelated to the present matter. -- Kendrick7talk 23:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- This was an issue with Macedonia and it's certainly an issue here. We should apply a consistent standard in dealing with editors embroiled in a religious/nationalist dispute. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with Chris -- this is a relevant point for the ArbComm to consider. CJCurrie (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't like inviting ArcCom to create policy here,
even if it made it through in a previous case.Nothing on a User's talk page could possibly be construed as propaganda, i.e. "a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of large numbers of people" as large numbers of people are unlikely to every see it in most cases. -- Kendrick7talk 23:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC) - Take that back; the proposal in fact failed in your example case. -- Kendrick7talk 23:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- No reason why it can't be addressed again. The composition of the ArbCom has changed since the Macedonia case, and the freshmen may take a different view on this issue. -- ChrisO (talk) 02:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- That's fine, but if I can't quote my own national heroes, including a terrorist leader, a terrorist ideologue, and a terrorist financier, or display nationalist symbols, we're gonna have a problem, because I'm not giving my time to a project for free that would place such restrictions on my personal space; user pages are not corporate cubicles and I am not Wikipedia's chattel. -- Kendrick7talk 04:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC) An example of real propaganda would be those leaflets with pictures of such of men that the nice Palestinian woman who makes my coffee handed to me this morning; but I can't blame her -- she's only trying to make change in this world.
- No reason why it can't be addressed again. The composition of the ArbCom has changed since the Macedonia case, and the freshmen may take a different view on this issue. -- ChrisO (talk) 02:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't like inviting ArcCom to create policy here,
- I agree with Chris -- this is a relevant point for the ArbComm to consider. CJCurrie (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- This was an issue with Macedonia and it's certainly an issue here. We should apply a consistent standard in dealing with editors embroiled in a religious/nationalist dispute. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is quite subjective, and quite unrelated to the dispute here. What differentiates "propaganda" from regular displays of ethnic national pride? I believe the current regulations on userpage use do enough already to allow the community to take action against disruptive userpage content, and so this item is not necessary. I might, however, be able to stand behind something a little broad (e.g. a general statement on diviseness and userpages). -- tariqabjotu 05:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose. Unrelated to the present matter. -- Kendrick7talk 23:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Proposed. As we've seen with the recent controversy over Hezbollah user boxes, the use of user pages to display controversial slogans and logos doesn't aid a harmonious editing environment. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose, I think the current system is fine. I appreciate the ability to 'scope out' the other editors and believe, like Kendrick7 there are various ways, within limits to convey who/what you are. If something comes up, we address it; as far as what I've seen in the realm of the I-P/ME conflicts the limits are set and addressed. Yes, it is subjective, but not unrelated. Whether it is ethnic/religious/nationalistic/political/etc pride or 'propaganda' depends on the side you reside. In short, it can be considered propaganda if that pride resides on the other side of one's ethnic/religious/nationalistic/political/etc town. In any case, you know it when you see it, and that is helpful because you have an idea of the neighborhood.
- Come to think of it, I believe that I-P/ME editors should have a few more userboxes to choose from or maybe be required to declare if they get in 'difficulties', like now. These might constitute a sliding scale of choices with, say, the following boxes at extreme opposing ends: 'This user believes that Palestine does not exist and it is called Eretz Israel.' and 'This user believes that Israel doesnt exist and it is called Palestine.' (Or how about 'This user accepts/opposes UN 242' (Oslo Accords, etc)). For either of those extremes, there is little that can be done which seems good for the project except to document their limited view and stay away from disrupting other points of view (which is what I see) and be dealt with. It is likely that the range of boxes in the middle are for editors with whom other editors can collaborate. Peace. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 04:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Canvassing
4) Under certain conditions it is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing or forthcoming discussions, but messages that are written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process and are generally considered disruptive.
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Proposed findings of fact
Locus of the dispute
1) The primary locus of the dispute concerns articles on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but also encompasses articles on topics related to Judaism and Islam in relation to a wider editing conflict between pro- and anti-Zionist editors, and pro- and anti-Islamic editors.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Support. Like the conflict it reflects, this issue has nationalist, religious, and ethnic dimensions which transcend "normal" politics. In particular, our coverage of Islam- and Islamophobia-related articles is intensely problematic, and there is considerable overlap between these and IPConflict articles. I can't say whether the same is true for Judaism articles. I don't much edit those, not least because I dislike being called an antisemite (which I already am called, regularly, without the slightest shred of evidence or argument.) <eleland/talkedits> 00:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- To add: The majority of Islam articles are, of course, not involved; but for whatever reason, Wikipedia seems to have unusually extensive series of articles describing criticisms of Islam, critics of Islam, books by critics of Islam, negative aspects of Islam and Islamic history, negative aspects of prominent Muslims, etc... and these seem to be magnets for drama in the sense that ChrisO describes. <eleland/talkedits> 07:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Support. Like the conflict it reflects, this issue has nationalist, religious, and ethnic dimensions which transcend "normal" politics. In particular, our coverage of Islam- and Islamophobia-related articles is intensely problematic, and there is considerable overlap between these and IPConflict articles. I can't say whether the same is true for Judaism articles. I don't much edit those, not least because I dislike being called an antisemite (which I already am called, regularly, without the slightest shred of evidence or argument.) <eleland/talkedits> 00:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Proposed. Not all of the articles being disputed are specifically about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, although that's certainly the main focus of the dispute. Articles such as Islam: What the West Needs to Know and New anti-semitism have also been the focus of intense disputes and edit wars involving many of the same editors. Since the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is to a large extent about competing religious fundamentalisms, this is probably only to be expected. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Chris, perhaps it would help to establish a metric to gauge whether an article is subject to the dispute. I would guess a large portion of Israel/Palestine project articles get caught in the dispute. On the other hand, while the dispute apparently does involve some Islam/Judaism articles (maybe add Islamofascism, Islam and antisemitism, Islamophobia), clearly the vast majority of Islam/Judaism articles are not involved. Do you have a way of gathering data (aka evidence) to identify which Islam/Judaism articles have been disputed by the Involved Parties named here? Thanks. HG | Talk 23:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Good question, though again I'm sure you could say that the vast majority of Israel/Palestine articles are likewise not being disputed; we're talking here about a minority of moderately to extremely controversial articles principally on political and historical topics. I'll have to have a think about how we can identify the individual articles that are being disputed. I certainly don't have visibility of them all and I've had no involvement in the vast majority of them, so I suspect we'll have to rely on the assistance of the involved parties to identify the articles that they see as being of particular concern. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:11, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Based on my limited experience, I'd start with those articles with many archives, those with a high degree of contested reverts and those tagged for NPOV, incompleteness, etc. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 05:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
- Good question, though again I'm sure you could say that the vast majority of Israel/Palestine articles are likewise not being disputed; we're talking here about a minority of moderately to extremely controversial articles principally on political and historical topics. I'll have to have a think about how we can identify the individual articles that are being disputed. I certainly don't have visibility of them all and I've had no involvement in the vast majority of them, so I suspect we'll have to rely on the assistance of the involved parties to identify the articles that they see as being of particular concern. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:11, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Object. The scope of this statement is too large. There are many articles on Islam that are undergoing serious issues, but are not (rightfully so) included in this dispute. Those articles, and the editors involved with them, will probably be at ArbCom soon enough, but for now, I don't believe we should suggest that this RfArb case was intended to help resolve the problems on those other articles as well. Additionally, I do not like the idea of identifying users as pro- and anti-Zionist, or pro- and anti-Islamic editors. In fact, I feel this dualism is at the core of the problem with these articles, and most articles that are the subject of heated disputes: an involved editor will often think his or her opponents all have serious bias issues and will therefore proceed to split people into different camps based on what he or she thinks their political or religious positions are. I am strongly against officially suggesting that these camps do in fact exist; people should be encouraged to assume to good faith (within reason of course) and not think everyone is either pro- or anti- something. -- tariqabjotu 05:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that the Islam-related articles should not be included, for now, unless Israel/Palestine-specific (e.g. Hamas, Hezbullah); it is a whole new can of worms, and within the I-P context, it is a relatively new phenomenon. That is absolutely not to say that some of the listed I-P editors are innocent of disruption there, because there are real problems, but I agree with tariqabjotu, that their time will come. I will also note that I have not seen similar things happening on Judaism-related articles and personally believe that a proponent of one religion should not be editing 'anti-articles' in another religion due to COI, or better yet COG (Conflict of God).
- I also do not like the idea of identifying users as pro- and anti-Zionist, but truely believe that is the way things are (at the extremes) amongst some Wikipedia editors. Zionism is one specific subject that must be included. It is, by it's original (and unfortunately continually changing) definition, the cause of the I-P conflict and continues (equally with it's anti-side) to perpetuate the conflict.
- Chris, perhaps it would help to establish a metric to gauge whether an article is subject to the dispute. I would guess a large portion of Israel/Palestine project articles get caught in the dispute. On the other hand, while the dispute apparently does involve some Islam/Judaism articles (maybe add Islamofascism, Islam and antisemitism, Islamophobia), clearly the vast majority of Islam/Judaism articles are not involved. Do you have a way of gathering data (aka evidence) to identify which Islam/Judaism articles have been disputed by the Involved Parties named here? Thanks. HG | Talk 23:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Proposed. Not all of the articles being disputed are specifically about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, although that's certainly the main focus of the dispute. Articles such as Islam: What the West Needs to Know and New anti-semitism have also been the focus of intense disputes and edit wars involving many of the same editors. Since the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is to a large extent about competing religious fundamentalisms, this is probably only to be expected. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Simply stated, Zionism started as a dream to solve one problem, established itself as a movement (1897), was accepted for various (widely different) reasons (1917), grew, struggled, fought and won more that it's original (stated) objective (1948) and became admired in the process. But the Zionist victory caused another problem (stateless Palestinians), which simmers to this day and (at it's extreme) is denied to exist. Zionism realized it's headiest days in 1967 (and defended them in 1973) and in the process made the Palestinian problem more complete. Given that, world diplomacy also set the limits and bounds of what should be used as a basis for a solution (UN242, land for peace, recognized and secure borders, end to terrorism, etc); few of these have yet been met and those most immediately involved are the only ones who can meet them. Likud (militant) Revisionist Zionism gets freely and convincingly elected in 1977 and Zionist maximalists ascend the world stage, bringing Eretz Israel into common english language mass media. They remain to this day, while they continue to control all the other land and the other people. Wikipedia editors now define Zionism as 'an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish People in [Eretz Israel]. Please, which Zionism is it? Is it the 1948 borders and Post-Zionism exists?- or is it the 1967 borders of Eretz Israel and opponents who disagree being either new antisemites, self-hating Jews or maybe Islamofascists. These neologisms largely exist only because the definition of Zionism is a moving target.
- This is where Wikipedia should (and I believe, must) make some kind of administrative, and admittedly POV, pro-peace decision. Otherwise, Wikipedia is so NPOV that it can't/won't decide whether peace or the alternative is right or better. Peace. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 07:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Discretionary temporary article probation
1) At the discretion of uninvolved administrators, articles that are the subject of conflict may be placed on temporary article probation for a period of up to three months. Editors making disruptive edits may be banned from the named article and its talk page by any uninvolved administrator. Any editor that continues to edit in violation of such a ban may be blocked, for up to a year in the event of repeated violations. Articles placed on temporary article probation are to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Articles placed on temporary probation. All blocks are to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Log of blocks and bans.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Seems a bit overly convoluted; wouldn't simply allowing admins to ban editors from articles in the area of conflict have the same net effect? Kirill 00:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Proposed. As far as I know this is a novel remedy, but it seems appropriate given the number of individual articles under dispute and the rapidly changing focus of the editing conflict(s). It would provide an alternative to protecting articles and forcing everyone to cease editing. A limited form of article probation could enable editing to continue in disputed articles while restricting disruptive behaviour. The underlying problem here is that disruptive conduct isn't being tackled effectively - imposing common standards of conduct for all editors of a disputed article would hold them all to the same standard. - ChrisO (talk) 00:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- (To Kirill) I think what I'm trying to get at here is that your discretionary sanctions proposal would target specific editors; this one (which I see as complementary, not a replacement for yours) would place explicit, up-front obligations on all editors involved with a disputed article. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Mmm, that strikes me as just extra verbiage. The full discretionary sanctions already authorize this, albeit not with that formal name; it would be perfectly legitimate for an admin to say that he'll ban anyone being disruptive from a particular article, exactly as would occur here. (Indeed, with the "any measures" clause, I can't think of any reasonable sanction—other than a ban longer than a year—which couldn't be justified by them.) Kirill 02:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- (To Kirill) I think what I'm trying to get at here is that your discretionary sanctions proposal would target specific editors; this one (which I see as complementary, not a replacement for yours) would place explicit, up-front obligations on all editors involved with a disputed article. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Proposed. As far as I know this is a novel remedy, but it seems appropriate given the number of individual articles under dispute and the rapidly changing focus of the editing conflict(s). It would provide an alternative to protecting articles and forcing everyone to cease editing. A limited form of article probation could enable editing to continue in disputed articles while restricting disruptive behaviour. The underlying problem here is that disruptive conduct isn't being tackled effectively - imposing common standards of conduct for all editors of a disputed article would hold them all to the same standard. - ChrisO (talk) 00:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposals by Kirill Lokshin
Proposed Principles
Purpose of Wikipedia
1) Wikipedia is a project to create a neutral encyclopedia. Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, publishing or promoting original research, and political or ideological struggle, is prohibited.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Proposed. Kirill 22:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Support - but with caveats. Editors apparently breaching policy may actually be a) bringing to attention 'good' information from RSes, or b) answering questions. Not all editors practice the former, and few seem to do the latter. These two behaviors are not intended to be disruptive, nor will it help to treat them as such, even if some examples appears to fall under the restrictions. There is also some danger that this policy can/will be used to restrict the activities of legitimate (and previously tolerated, or even encouraged) single purpose accounts like this one. PRtalk 12:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- I agree for the most part with PR, above, in his expression of some of the limitations and pitfalls in applying this policy on a blanket basis. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Decorum
2) Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, trolling, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Proposed. Kirill 22:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Editorial process
3) Wikipedia works by building consensus. This is done through the use of polite discussion—involving the wider community, if necessary—and dispute resolution, rather than through disruptive editing. Editors are each responsible for noticing when a debate is escalating into an edit war, and for helping the debate move to better approaches by discussing their differences rationally. Edit-warring, whether by reversion or otherwise, is prohibited; this is so even when the disputed content is clearly problematic, with only a few exceptions.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Proposed. Kirill 22:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- I believe this is one of the core issues if not the core issue. It seems to me that, in these complex disputes, it is depressingly easy for a relatively small number of editors to "freeze" articles in their current state by combining reverts, often accompanied with requests to seek consensus on the talk page, with filibustering tactics such as vaguely specified objections, "changing the goalposts" so that there is always another objection after the first one is addressed, etc. <eleland/talkedits> 00:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Questions. I agree that this is a core problem. Would you consider expanding your proposal, of clarifying its relevance, to two recurrent problems in I-P consensus-building? (a) Consensus need not depend on agreement by every user. It is disruptive when 1 or 2 users engage in discussions as if their disagreement should block a developing consensus. (b) Consensus should be grounded on WP policy, reliable sources, and (as you say) rational discussion. It is problematic when users zealously oppose/promote edits based on their personal views, and/or when they decline/fail to provide sources and reasons for their views. It's my impression that a few experienced users, on both sides, engage in (a) and (b) far too often. Thanks. HG | Talk 17:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Dispute resolution
4) Users should not respond to inappropriate behavior in kind, or engage in sustained editorial conflict or unbridled criticism across different forums. Editors who have genuine grievances against others are expected to avail themselves of the dispute resolution mechanism.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Proposed. Kirill 22:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposed findings of fact
Area of conflict
1) The disputes presented in this case, while focusing specifically on issues related to Palestinian-Israeli conflict, are part of a broader set of conflicts prevalent over the entire range of articles concerning the Arab-Israeli conflict (see, in particular, Allegations of apartheid, PalestineRemembered, Deir Yassin massacre, Israel-Lebanon, Israeli apartheid, Zeq, and Yuber). Many of these conflicts are grounded in matters external to Wikipedia, including long-standing historical, ideological, religious, and ethnic disputes in the region. The area of conflict in this case shall therefore be considered to be the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Proposed;
needs links to all the old arbitration cases.Kirill 22:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Proposed;
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- I'm not sure this is sufficient. The dispute is certainly focused on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but articles related to Islam and Judaism such as Islam: What the West Needs to Know and New antisemitism have also been the focus of intense disputes and edit wars involving many of the same editors. The issue, broadly speaking, seems to be a clash between pro- and anti-Zionist editors plus pro- and anti-Islamic editors (obviously these are overlapping categories). We shouldn't draw the net too narrowly - if topic or article bans are required, they won't be effective if they're limited only to Israeli-Palestinian articles. The arbitration needs to look at the wider picture. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'd think that "broadly interpreted" would cover this, but I'm not opposed to expanding the area further if necessary. Kirill 22:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Might I suggest amending the first sentence in your proposal to "concerning the Arab-Israeli conflict and controversial issues relating to Judaism and Islam"? I think that would probably cover it. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- I might be able to support Kirill's wording, but I would object to ChrisO's suggestion of tacking on Judaism and Islam to the statement. The two religions and the Arab-Israeli conflict (or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict) are two separate issues: the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a land dispute with (dare I say unnecessary) religious overtones. The topics of Judaism and Islam go far beyond this conflict and although those tend to be areas of high contention as well, they should not be lumped into here, except insofar as they relate to the Arab-Israeli or Israeli-Palestinian conflict. -- tariqabjotu 05:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Might I suggest amending the first sentence in your proposal to "concerning the Arab-Israeli conflict and controversial issues relating to Judaism and Islam"? I think that would probably cover it. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'd think that "broadly interpreted" would cover this, but I'm not opposed to expanding the area further if necessary. Kirill 22:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Question on handling the Area (or ChrisO's Locus). How might the Area of remedies be implemented in practice? Would it be based on an existing set of Categories or WikiProjects? If so, couldn't reasonable folks just selectively tag any contested articles to indicate that they fall within the Area? HG | Talk 22:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure this is sufficient. The dispute is certainly focused on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but articles related to Islam and Judaism such as Islam: What the West Needs to Know and New antisemitism have also been the focus of intense disputes and edit wars involving many of the same editors. The issue, broadly speaking, seems to be a clash between pro- and anti-Zionist editors plus pro- and anti-Islamic editors (obviously these are overlapping categories). We shouldn't draw the net too narrowly - if topic or article bans are required, they won't be effective if they're limited only to Israeli-Palestinian articles. The arbitration needs to look at the wider picture. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Discretionary sanctions
1) Any uninvolved administrator may, on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if that editor fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, the expected standards of behavior, or the normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; restrictions on reverts; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Proposed. Kirill 22:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- A little draconian, no? I don't see how opening the doors to unilateral admin action, based on vague and overbroad standards, will lead to less drama. How has this worked in the past, on other conflicts? <eleland/talkedits> 00:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- There's some discussion of this just below. Kirill 00:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose - threats of bans (or 1RR) at individual articles would encourage a proper discussion of what behavior is unacceptable. This kind of evidence based working is urgently needed, and would (eventually) help contribute to evidence based editing, the whole purpose of the project. But - "uninvolved admins" prepared to act in this area will be impossible to find. This proposal would encourage drive-by actions that would make the problems of this topic (see my evidence) even more prevalent. This ArbCom is a golden opportunity to take one step only - the sanctioning of editors proved (to some reasonable standard) to have acted in ways incompatible with the project. Any solution that lowers the standard of proof needed for "action" will not protect the scholarly editors that the project needs. PRtalk 12:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- A little draconian, no? I don't see how opening the doors to unilateral admin action, based on vague and overbroad standards, will lead to less drama. How has this worked in the past, on other conflicts? <eleland/talkedits> 00:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- I don't think this is too draconian; there is a swath of articles that see persistent problems, and there needs to be some way to come down on editors who spell trouble for them. Although I'm not fond of the vagueness in the above proposal, I feel the door for swift admin action in this arena should be open. -- tariqabjotu 05:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Given that there have been cases where some administrators appear to exercise their discretion to cancel sanctions placed on even problematical editors with a long history of warring, I think one should be very careful about 'discretionary powers'. In the case here, discretion looks like the exercise of a personal favour after private communications took place between the offender and the discretionary administrator he sought out to review his case. Worse still, the abuse of discretion, once noted, admittedly irritably, led to the same administrator reviewing negatively my request to be unblocked when, as the record subsequently shows, the original block was the result of careless review and, as a second administrator admitted, an incorrect application of sanctions. That this can occur is one strong reason for considering procedures in Wiki Israel/Palestinian topics so loose that participation is futile, since here the review process itself can at times be a charade, feinting at neutral arbitration when discretion based on personal sympathy or contacts, not visible since off the record, can overthrow sanctions for proven misbehaviour to favour one party against another, whatever the formal rules say Nishidani (talk) 11:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think this is too draconian; there is a swath of articles that see persistent problems, and there needs to be some way to come down on editors who spell trouble for them. Although I'm not fond of the vagueness in the above proposal, I feel the door for swift admin action in this arena should be open. -- tariqabjotu 05:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Appeal of discretionary sanctions
2) Discretionary sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the administrators' noticeboard, or the Committee. Administrators are cautioned not to reverse such sanctions without familiarizing themselves with the full facts of the matter and engaging in extensive discussion and consensus-building at the administrators' noticeboard or another suitable on-wiki venue. The Committee will consider appropriate remedies including suspension or revocation of adminship in the event of violations.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Proposed. Kirill 22:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Kirill, if you don't mind, I have a few questions. (#1) Would you explain why you are recommending discretionary sanctions rather than an approach based on the probation of articles? (#2) Only one other area ( sanction of Macedonia)), currently has discretionary sanctions. How well has is it working there? (#3) Perhaps this is too broad a question, but I'm wondering whether there's been any evaluation of the success of general sanctions, either the 15 areas currently sanctioned or past cases? Thanks muchly. HG | Talk 22:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- The probation-based approach tends to be both limited in application (as it cannot deal with problematic behavior that occurs away from article pages—in project space, for example) and not particularly flexible (as it only allows for outright bans from articles, not more subtle remedies such as revert or civility parole); while it performs amiably in calming disputes involving a small number of related editors and articles, I do not think it is of practical value when the dispute is larger, or when it is motivated largely by outside conflicts.
- Based on the feedback I've received, the Macedonia sanctions have been the most effective of the "problem area" sanctions we've tried (compare Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 and Digwuren).
- We are currently reviewing the various sanctions in place; expect some motions in the near future. But that's not really related to this case. Kirill 22:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- I can give some more detailed info on #2, since I'm closely involved in patrolling Macedonia-related articles. Bear in mind that the case was only decided just over a month ago, so the post-arbitration regime is still in its early days. A small number of users have been given 24 hour blocks for vandalism, 3RR etc. The only person discretionarily sanctioned so far has been User:Ireland101, who was put on revert parole on 31 December 2007 for edit-warring across multiple articles. There haven't really been any big controversies since the end of arbitration, but there's been a steady drizzle of drive-by vandalism and POV editing (almost entirely from the Greek side, regrettably) coming from newly registered users and anonymous IPs. So far it's working pretty well - keep your fingers crossed... -- ChrisO (talk) 22:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Kirill, if you don't mind, I have a few questions. (#1) Would you explain why you are recommending discretionary sanctions rather than an approach based on the probation of articles? (#2) Only one other area ( sanction of Macedonia)), currently has discretionary sanctions. How well has is it working there? (#3) Perhaps this is too broad a question, but I'm wondering whether there's been any evaluation of the success of general sanctions, either the 15 areas currently sanctioned or past cases? Thanks muchly. HG | Talk 22:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Working group
3) The Committee shall convene a working group, composed of experienced Wikipedians in good standing, and task it with developing a comprehensive set of recommendations for resolving the pervasive problem of intractable disputes centered around national, ethnic, and cultural areas of conflict. The membership and structure of the group shall be subject to the approval of the Committee. The working group shall be free to develop recommendations of any form, including those requiring Committee action and those requiring community adoption of new or changed polcies, at its discretion. The group shall present its recommendations to the Committee no later than six months from the date of its formation.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- This is interesting. I'm curious to see how this would work out. -- tariqabjotu 20:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed enforcement
Logging of sanctions
1) All sanctions imposed under the provisions of this decision are to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Log of blocks and bans.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Proposed. Kirill 22:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposals by User:Sm8900
Proposed principles
Wikipedia must be NPOV
1)All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and, as much as possible, without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources). Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle. NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable. This is non-negotiable and expected on all articles, and of all article editors.
However, Wikipedia articles also need to avoid Systemic bias. They must also sometimes recognize that there is no such thing as objectivity. it is sometimes worthwhile to be willing to learn how to write for the enemy, in order to allow some factual claims in the article with which one may disagree completely.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Oppose the motion as presented With the greatest respect to Steve, Sm8900, the above is regularly used to obstruct productive editors, claiming that a work in progress doesn't abide by policy. It's a good (indeed core) policy as far as it goes, but if we're to have a proposal on it, then we need to emphasize it is meant to apply to "stable" articles, not those under construction. PRtalk 11:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ok. i want to make sure i'm hearing your important points correctly. your points are valid, and that's precisely why i mentioned this principle in the first place; in order to mention, right in the next paragraph, some of the reservations which should exist in regard to its use. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose the motion as presented With the greatest respect to Steve, Sm8900, the above is regularly used to obstruct productive editors, claiming that a work in progress doesn't abide by policy. It's a good (indeed core) policy as far as it goes, but if we're to have a proposal on it, then we need to emphasize it is meant to apply to "stable" articles, not those under construction. PRtalk 11:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Proposed. One of the problems with articles related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that we have here two diametrically-opposed viewpoints, each with frequently their own versions of historical fact, and legality. Under these conditions, it is almost impossible to write something which is absolutely neutral in the most traditional sense, since there is no genuinely neutral account. One of the best ways to achieve true consensus here is to recognize that there are two communities here, and two valid viewpoints, each with its own heartfelt concerns and genuine sensitivities.
- Proponents of Palestinian views may frequently need to cite sources which in a Western political context might be seen as overly leftist, or revisionist. Similarly, proponents of Israeli views may sometimes need to cite sources which might be seen as somewhat dogmatic within a Western context. Neither side's sources should be always accepted unconditionally.
- However, one of the ways to find true consensus and a positive resolution is to accept that the views of each community deserve some degree of coverage, and not to wrangle endlessly because one source or another appears to clearly have a certain opinionated political approach or an opinionated approach to history. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 22:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- That is, I'm afraid Steve, Sm8900, deeply problematical. Most of the literature I, for one, used to ensure a just representation of the 'Palestinian' record comes from Israeli or Jewish historians, writers and journalists, not from Palestinians. And it is precisely many of these sources which were bitterly contested or challenged by pro-Zionist editors. Your remark implies that we are dealing, in editing from the reliable literature, with two national outlooks, respectively Israeli and Palestinian. Not so. Cite sources such as Noam Chomsky, Joel Beinin, Norman Finkelstein, Baruch Kimmerling, Benny Morris, Israel Shahak, Ilan Pappé, Ian Lustick, Alfred Lilienthal, Norton Mezvinsky, Yehoshafat Harkabi, Nathan J. Brown, Uriel Tal, Tony Judt, Maxime Rodinson, Felicia Langer, Simha Flapan, Raul Hilberg, Avi Shlaim, Idith Zertal. Israel Finkelstein, Shlomo Ben-Ami Hillel Cohen, Yakov Rabkin, Livia Rokach, Lenni Brenner, and journalists such as Amira Hass, Gideon Levy, Uri Avnery, to name but a few and one, as often as not, suffers a challenge over RS or pretextual wikilawyering of the kind: Shahak is not a professional historian hence not RS (days then pass in argument as to why this disqualifies him, while it does not disqualify the unqualified historian Walter Laqueur,) etc.
- The systemic bias which I think is the root problem, not addressed here, is distinct from a 'national conflict' (Macedonia, Croat-Serb Wiki etc.) because, distinctively, we are dealing with an occupying power, exercising military, legal, cultural and economic preponderance of power over an occupied people (ICJ ruling 2004), the former splendidly represented by an abundance of editors, the latter having less than a handful. The discursive interests of Palestinians are substantially represented by stand-ins, either by Jewish/Israeli or Western scholars and writers, on which 'pro-Palestinian editors then draw for most of their material. It is not therefore a matter of a conflict of two valid national perspectives, as much as an internal cognitive rift within Jewish/Israeli intellectual debates (reflecting the post-Babylonian rift between universalism and nationalism in the Jewish tradition, much written about by Arnold Toynbee and others), and Western debates, on the area. One needs quite creative methods to iron out the peculiar difficulties this situation generates.Nishidani (talk) 20:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Findings of fact
Many editors on both sides are good-faith, even when they seem partisan by conventional standards
2) Many editors who are most prominent in various disputes within this area are actually writing in good-faith, even when it appears they are actually being overly contentious or partisan.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Proposed. Many editors from either viewpoint really do write in good-faith, trying to portray facts as they see it.
- Many Palestinian-area editors really do not sit down to write thinking "Let me make Israel look bad." They really are thinking, "Let me reveal the truth about how Israel has mistreated Palestinians, curtailed their rights, and misused Palestinian resources, and distorted the historical facts."
- Many Israel-area editors really do not sit down to write thinking "Let me make Palestinians look bad." They are really thinking, "let me reveal the truth about how Palestinians engage in continuing incitement, and in concealed support for terrorist groups, and in constantly providing material support for terrorist activities."
- Both groups really seek to lay out the historical facts as they see it. this should not be seen as a partisan act, but rather an attempt to provide new little-known facts. Similarly, both groups seek to rely on historians and analysts with an unconventional viewpoint, one which seeks lesser-known views of history. Each should be given a chance to present its views of the facts, and its sources, based on the truth as each genuinely sees it from a good-faith perspective. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Admins and mediators should be flexible on certain guidelines in specific ways, due to context of disputes
1) Admins, mediators, and other potential leaders, as well as editors should be advised to show flexibility on specific key guidelines, such as WP:SOURCES, WP:UNDUE, and perhaps other guidelines which may be relevant to emrging disputes on these issues, if they impede the underlying goal of providing balance between two diametrically-opposed viewpoints or versions of a particular event or set of events.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Proposed. because of the above points, admins and mediators, as well as anyone else likely to play some role in dispute resolution on these issues, should to be advised to show some flexibility on some specific guidelines, in some specific ways, in light of these issues.
- Specifically, they should be advised to show some flexibility on WP:SOURCES, and perhaps WP:UNDUE, and perhaps some other guidelines, when applied to sources used by either side, and they should be told to be flexible on the notability of some sources, in order to pay attention to the additional consideration of making sure that each community has had some legitimate chance to put its thoughts on the table. they should realize that there are two genuinely disparate views of different realities here in regards to almost all issues, and they should not immediately act to exclude one side or the other, just because one specific source seems motivated by what at first might seem like an ideological slant. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm objecting to this. The proposed statement is too vague and almost seems like allusion to a MedCom case I'm mediating now (whose disputants are not, by the way, involved in this case). I'm not appreciative of that allusion. -- tariqabjotu 15:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm. Ok. I am not alluding to anything here. yes I know everyone here will think I'm alluding to something. i know everyone here will think i am using veiled code words to refer to a hidden idea. you are our first customer. :-) thanks. To continue, the only thing I am referring to is an ongoing general area of dysfunctionality and contention, with misconduct by editors on both sides, and which carries some implications for general Wikipedia dynamics, and which could benefit from some deep discussion of the underlying thoughts and dynamics.
- Ok, that's my reply. All kidding aside, hope that adequately answers your very valid concerns. Now (all kidding resumed), who's next? anyone else want to scrutinize my words for what they feel is a direct or veiled allusion to some drawn-out dispute they were involved in? come on in, all takers welcomed. :-) come in and put your feet up. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, did some more poking around. the case which you're mediating is a significant and complex one. what's wrong with alluding to it, in order to glean some information and lessons which can serve to enlighten anyone who might deal with similar issues and disputes in the future? thanks for your comments, by the way. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 16:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't appreciate the sarcastic remarks. Please don't lump me into everyone and please don't pretend this is the first time you've heard of this mediation case; you have commented on it before. Additionally, your proposal specifically mentions mediators, not just admins, so... yeah... I'm not convinced. -- tariqabjotu 19:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- This fails on its face because it does not specify which key guidelines are covered. I suspect that a better-written proposal would also fail; we are not going to relax or ignore standards of notability, reliable sources, NPOV, or anything else. If a group of editors can't agree on the notability of a person or event, they should seek outside help through the DR process (RFC, third opinion, mediation). If they can't agree and they get nasty about it, the solution is not to lower the standard to moot the argument but rather to ban those editors from the topic and see if a different group of editors can come to a civilized agreement. Thatcher 18:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- much of what you say is valid. (I have made some revisions based on your comments.) however, sorry, BANNING the editors? that's your solution? sorry, this is preceisely the kind of welll-meaning thinking which leads to problems. We can't ban all the good-faith editors invovled in good faith disputes. And no, a different group of editors is not likely to come to a civilized agreement, if others have greatly failed to do so.
- why shouldn't a good-faith palestinian editor occasionally bring in a left-wing historian in order to give credence to their claim that israel has dispossessed the Palestinian people? Why shouldn't a good-faith Israeli editor occasionally bring a right-wing historian to give credence to their claim that Palestinianns have consistently supported terrorists on a wide-scale? your answer does not seem to leave much room for positive resolution to disputes on these issues.
- Also, we are currently in a discussion phase. I would gently request that, in discussing genral well-intentioned suggestions for solving long-term disputes, that we not initially use terms like "fail". Did you ever hear of keeping moderation in the tone and atmosphere here? I would suggest humbly that we try to do so. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 18:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Banned from the article or topic. That is the purpose of broad discretionary sanctions that are likely to be enacted here. And your assumption that I would oppose "left-wing historian in order to give credence to their claim that israel has dispossessed the Palestinian people" or vice versa is not founded either in what I wrote above or in any Wikipedia policy. The Neutral point of view policy contemplates including multiple viewpoints, and the reliable source policy does not require that sources be neutral (is there such a thing in any field?) but rather that the best sources are people who are widely recognized as experts, and whose views are published (in the case of historians) in peer reviewed academic literature. I'm sure you could find some professors in Category:Universities and colleges in the Palestinian territories and Category:Universities and colleges in Israel to cover both sides of your example. What would not be tolerated is an editor who insists that one or the other view not be represented at all, or who puts so many barriers to inclusion (unreasonable demands for sources, adding weasel words, repeated removing of sourced material) that it becomes clear his real intent is to obstruct presentation of that view. That's when an article or topic ban or 1RR limit would come into play under the broad discretionary sanctions. Thatcher 18:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- thanks for your helpful reply. by the way, I didn't mean that YOU would oppose any leftist or rightist historian; i meant this is precisely the kind of issue which often turns into a major dispute. anyway, i will try to read the rest of your very thoughtful and helpful response, and reply more later, (if necessary). thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 18:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with Thatcher. Steve, I think you're being a bit too kind here. They're not all mere "good-faith" editors involved in "good-faith" disputes; some of them have contributed to disputes in a manner that can only be described as disruptive. We shouldn't be bending the rules to accommodate them; we should be setting restrictions (including perhaps lengthy blocks or bans) against specific editors that continuously cause trouble. Contrary to popular belief, there are people out there who can contribute to articles related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict without cooking up a firestorm. The troublemakers in this field should not be able to ruin things for those other people.
- And, yes, I too believe this will fail (for vagueness); there's nothing wrong with using that word. From your comments here, I think you're bending over backwards here to not hurt anyone's feelings. I'm at least happy you're not being incivil, but one does not have to handle these proceedings with kiddy gloves to be speaking in an acceptable tone. -- tariqabjotu 20:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Excuse me, I was under the impression we'd been told that this ArbCom is not going to sanction anyone,[1] for which reason I'm not putting forwards any evidence. Are you saying that evidence of quite serious disruptive editing should be entered into the record, and measures will be taken to stop these individuals concerned from carrying on as they've been doing? PRtalk 21:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know why you're asking me; I'm not on ArbCom. I personally, however, believe that editor-specific sanctions should be applied for those who are shown to have been the most disruptive. I don't think any of the comments you referenced in your Evidence comment excludes the idea that that could still occur, although I could be wrong about that. -- tariqabjotu 21:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- PR, your question is more appropriate for one of the talk pages. It seems to me that the Arbitrators who have spoken on the matter (2 or 3, certainly not a majority) want to impose broad topical sanctions and have them be enforced against users in the future only. As a long-time observer of the Arbitration process I suggest that the committee may consider evidence and individual sanctions against the worst offenders, assuming you can make a good case and that there really are offenders who are worse than most in this dispute. Thatcher 23:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Excuse me, I was under the impression we'd been told that this ArbCom is not going to sanction anyone,[1] for which reason I'm not putting forwards any evidence. Are you saying that evidence of quite serious disruptive editing should be entered into the record, and measures will be taken to stop these individuals concerned from carrying on as they've been doing? PRtalk 21:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- And, yes, I too believe this will fail (for vagueness); there's nothing wrong with using that word. From your comments here, I think you're bending over backwards here to not hurt anyone's feelings. I'm at least happy you're not being incivil, but one does not have to handle these proceedings with kiddy gloves to be speaking in an acceptable tone. -- tariqabjotu 20:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- This proposal assumes that the problem lies primarily with Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. I would submit that the policies are fundamentally sound; these problems stem from users who continuously disregard them (on both sides), and more fundamentally from a failure of whatever authority exists on Wikipedia to even feebly enforce policy on these articles. You can't expect policies to work if the penalty for ignoring them repeatedly and blatantly is an admonition or a rapidly-reversed block. That sort of example takes root very quickly. It's not so much that if we throw out this group of editors a different group will do better. The point is that if we actually provide positive reinforcement to editors who behave, and actual negative reinforcement to those who repeatedly and predictably don't, then the atmosphere may improve. Of course, it may not, but it's an experiment worth trying. MastCell Talk 23:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
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Proposed enforcement
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Proposals by Malik Shabazz
Proposed Principles
3RR is not an entitlement
1) The three-revert rule does not convey an entitlement to revert three times each day.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Proposed. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Definitely. -- tariqabjotu 05:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Tag-team editing
2) Editors who evade the letter of 3RR through the use of tag-team editing are engaging in disruptive editing and may be violating the principle of the 3RR rule.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Proposed. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Again, I agree. -- tariqabjotu 05:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that tag-team editing is a problem. I've seen it done by both "sides" of the dispute and would encourage uninvolved admins, and perhaps ArbCom, to be responsive to this problem. Perhaps the relation to 3RR needs to be clarified or expanded? Thanks. HG | Talk 16:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Setting an example for others
3) Administrators and other editors who have been placed in positions of trust by the community are expected to set an example for other editors by their behavior.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Proposed. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- This might be true, but I don't believe this is relevant to the case. -- tariqabjotu 05:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- err, sorry, i feel it is relevant. if admins engage in certain controversial actions, it only heightens the contentious mood. People need to feel that there some credible figures who can be considered fair, authoritative, and truly neutral, and truly conscientious. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Blocking
1) Any uninvolved administrator may, at her or his discretion, block any editor who engages in disruptive editing regardless of whether 3RR has been violated, especially if an editor appears to be gaming the system.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Proposed. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Blocking
2) Any uninvolved administrator may, at her or his discretion, block any editor who engages in disruptive editing regardless of whether 3RR has been violated, especially if an editor appears to be gaming the system through the use of tag-team editing.
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- Proposed. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
De-adminship
3) ArbCom will consider removing from her or his position any administrator or other editor who has been placed in a position of trust who engages in edit warring.
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- Proposed. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think this is relevant to the case. Additionally, I believe the edit-warring has to get very, very bad for edit-warring alone to lead to de-adminship. Edit wars don't involve admin tools, so it would be difficult to say that the tools are being revoked because of abuse. -- tariqabjotu 06:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposals by HG
Proposed Principles
Conflicts of interest
1a) Conflicts of interest can be a serious hindrance to the production of a neutral encyclopedia. Users with a potential conflict-of-interest should follow COI guidelines. By the same token, accusations or undue questioning of COI are contrary to good conduct (WP:AGF), uncivil and disruptive. (COI in this matter may include doing paid or volunteer editing, or guidance on Wikipedia editing, for an NGO or governmental group.)
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- Proposed, in response to COI-related concerns and innuendos. HG | Talk 19:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'd agree with everything exception the parenthetic piece beginning with "(COI...)". -- tariqabjotu 20:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Tariqabjotu, thanks for your reply. What's the nature of your concern with the parenthetical? Would such situations not be potential conflicts of interest? Thanks. HG | Talk 22:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't like how the proposal condemns undue questioning of COI, but then proceeds to have that parenthetical piece, which, to me, sounds like it's indicting someone for that conflict of interest. I think the point is taken sufficiently without that part. -- tariqabjotu 22:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Tariqabjotu, thanks for your reply. What's the nature of your concern with the parenthetical? Would such situations not be potential conflicts of interest? Thanks. HG | Talk 22:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'd agree with everything exception the parenthetic piece beginning with "(COI...)". -- tariqabjotu 20:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Proposed, in response to COI-related concerns and innuendos. HG | Talk 19:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
1b) Conflicts of interest in this matter may include doing paid or volunteer editing, or guidance on Wikipedia editing, for an NGO or governmental group.
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Evaluation of disputes and remedies
2) (2a)Remedies that are not monitored are more difficult to evaluate. (2b) Remedies without clear deliverables (e.g., quantifiable or easily judged results) are more difficult to evaluate. (2c) The more visible and transparent a dispute, the more likely that uninvolved and involved parties will make progress toward resolution.
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Proposed findings of fact
Conflicts of interest
1) Prior to arbitration, no involved parties have made any self-disclosures about conflicts-of-interest relevant to this dispute. Prior to arbitration, no reliable sources demonstrate that any specific user, including any involved party, has a conflict-of-interest relevant to this dispute.
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Mechanisms to track and measure disputes
2) While Wikipedia has mechanisms in place to track and measure vandalism, ArbCom would benefit from better mechanisms to track and measure the level, intensity and character of disputes, at least for the disputes covered by this arbitration.
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Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Ongoing monitoring of disputed articles
1) To enable ArbCom to evaluate the disputed topic area, ArbCom endorses the development of better mechanisms to monitor and measure disputes in articles covered by this arbitration.
- Draft idea (1a). ArbCom asks uninvolved parties to set up a working group to observe user conduct related to the articles covered by this arbitration. This working group will exercise no new authorities. This working group may promote dispute resolution or recommend remedies through existing channels. The working group is asked to report its observations to ArbCom periodically. ArbCom will aim to provide an ArbCom member as a liaison or member of the working group.
- Draft idea (1b). ArbCom endorses the development of a page (in Wikipedia mainspace) that tracks and tabulates data on the level, intensity, and character of disputes covered by this arbitration. For instance, this tracking page might identify articles by protection level, dispute resolution efforts, 3RRs and blocks, revert levels, etc. The page may be dynamically generated, in part, while allowing input by observers.
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Terms for required mentorship
2) In this remedy, ArbCom sets forth parameters for the mentoring of involved parties. Required mentoring should be guided by a written agreement of the mentor(s), the user and (an admin or an ArbCom clerk). The agreement should have written and well-defined goals, including some easily measured or evaluated deliverables (e.g., reduce or eliminate contested reverts). Mentorship should run for a specified time (e.g., six months) and then be evaluated by uninvolved parties. Mentoring should measurably improve the user's role in the editorial process (see Kirill's principle, above). If any involved party arranges mentoring voluntarily, that mentoring would be subject to the same terms as required mentoring.
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- Proposed. To the best of my knowledge, this remedy would apply to PR (currently subject to required mentoring) and to Jaakobou (pursuant to the last clause). I believe that part of the problem with PR's mentoring experience is due to the lack of clearly-articulated parameters from the community. With more clarity from ArbCom, perhaps Required Mentoring will be a viable remedy. Suggestions and friendly amendments welcome. Thanks for your consideration. HG | Talk 19:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think mentoring works, so I'm going to have to object to this. I would prefer something with a bit more teeth. -- tariqabjotu 20:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
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