→Request to narrow initial focus: further comment |
→Tools exist primarily to sanction behavior, not content: hmm ... does blacklisting control 'content' in the body of the text (yes, it controls the content in external links) |
||
Line 286: | Line 286: | ||
:::I take your point, AB. However, I do think it's important to stress that the primary purpose of the tools is to address behavior. I believe a much higher level of care should be shown when they are used to address content concerns. I suspect this is something we can readily agree upon. Is the description of my proposed principal in line with your thoughts? If so, perhaps we can come up with a better tag line? How about ''Tools exist primarily to sanction behavior, not content'''? [[User:Ronnotel|Ronnotel]] ([[User talk:Ronnotel|talk]]) 01:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC) |
:::I take your point, AB. However, I do think it's important to stress that the primary purpose of the tools is to address behavior. I believe a much higher level of care should be shown when they are used to address content concerns. I suspect this is something we can readily agree upon. Is the description of my proposed principal in line with your thoughts? If so, perhaps we can come up with a better tag line? How about ''Tools exist primarily to sanction behavior, not content'''? [[User:Ronnotel|Ronnotel]] ([[User talk:Ronnotel|talk]]) 01:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC) |
||
::I've discussed this at great length with Beetstra. The general statement is accurate. "Should be avoided" doesn't mean that there are no circumstances where the blacklist process may -- nay, must -- consider content. Maybe a general statement about use of admin tools is important, but perhaps also a more specific one about the blacklist itself. Bottom line: blacklisting was designed to deal ''only'' with massive linkspam, that couldn't be handled other ways, so if that doesn't exist, there should be no blacklisting, and exceptions would require a strong showing of damage (such as malware, good example). Then, if the danger is past, delisting should probably be routine. I will, later, give examples. However, if there is real and present danger of massive linkspam, ''then'' whitelisting specific pages becomes a cumbersome but necessary way of dealing with legitimate use, and this, then, should require some showing of either necessity, or, possibly, simple, nearly automatic process whereby registered editors can easily request whitelisting, not be grilled about it, and it's granted by a neutral admin, and blacklist volunteer admins would not ''ever'' decline a whitelisting request, because of the circularity that gets set up. This means ''less'' burden on the blacklist volunteers, who do a very important and difficult job. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 14:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC) |
::I've discussed this at great length with Beetstra. The general statement is accurate. "Should be avoided" doesn't mean that there are no circumstances where the blacklist process may -- nay, must -- consider content. Maybe a general statement about use of admin tools is important, but perhaps also a more specific one about the blacklist itself. Bottom line: blacklisting was designed to deal ''only'' with massive linkspam, that couldn't be handled other ways, so if that doesn't exist, there should be no blacklisting, and exceptions would require a strong showing of damage (such as malware, good example). Then, if the danger is past, delisting should probably be routine. I will, later, give examples. However, if there is real and present danger of massive linkspam, ''then'' whitelisting specific pages becomes a cumbersome but necessary way of dealing with legitimate use, and this, then, should require some showing of either necessity, or, possibly, simple, nearly automatic process whereby registered editors can easily request whitelisting, not be grilled about it, and it's granted by a neutral admin, and blacklist volunteer admins would not ''ever'' decline a whitelisting request, because of the circularity that gets set up. This means ''less'' burden on the blacklist volunteers, who do a very important and difficult job. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 14:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC) |
||
:Indeed, Abd and I have discussed this at great length, and agree on the basis of the terms (sometimes disagreeing on some semantics or on terms, but well). Admin tools should indeed not be used to control content, we fully agree on that. But I disagree that page protection, blocking people and blacklisting links is 'controlling content'! The only 'content' that is blocked by blacklisting a link is the external link in the external links section. I still insist that blacklisting a link does not disable adding content to the body, and referencing it to the material on the blacklisted site (pointy example, but again, if I say, that I said in revid 283836766 on this wiki "I am not disputing, anywhere, that these sites contains good information and with the copies that are there there are no copyright issues.", then you are able to confirm that; it is more work, but it does not make it untrue, unverifyable etc.!) You only can't ''link'' to it anymore (in references, the link is a convenience link, not a '''''absolute must''''', though it is certainly helpful (and I am talking about content space, not about talkpage discussions, yes, it also hampers discussion on talkpages!!). Also, it is not the end, specific links can still be whitelisted where needed. Blacklisting hence slows down the editing, and makes people think about what they add, and 'forces' discussion, but I do not believe that it ''really'' controls content. --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 09:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC) |
|||
==Proposals by [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris]]== |
==Proposals by [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris]]== |
Revision as of 09:20, 29 April 2009
Wikipedia Arbitration |
---|
|
Track related changes |
This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.
Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.
Motions and requests by the parties
Request to narrow initial focus
1)Please act to narrow the focus of this arbitration, at least initially, to the most urgent and weighty issue presented, administrative recusal.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- My review of the evidence to date has not led me to question my initial view, expressed at the acceptance stage, that there is thin fodder for an arbitration case here. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- This case became qualified through a focused RfC, Wikipedia:Requests for comment/JzG 3, on the topic of alleged failure to recuse when involved, and the evidence presented was limited to that issue. Whether or not JzG was "correct" in the actions was moot, and I acted (with some success) to prevent the RfC from becoming a laundry list of complaints against JzG. However, a majority of respondents in the RfC, which should be reviewed, did treat it as a content dispute and alleged misbehavior on my part. Nevertheless, WP:DR was not followed with respect to my alleged misbehavior, and that matter would ordinarily not be ripe for examination by ArbComm. It is obvious that if ArbComm determines that JzG did not violate policy, then my dispute was disruptive and my behavior would then be a proper topic for immediate examination. However, if JzG did violate policy, and if my behavior was within bounds as a following of WP:DR, then immature examination of my behavior, searching it for flaws, would be, in itself, a chilling example deterring others from similarly following WP:DR, and we need more of that following, not less. Hence I request the Committee to narrow the focus of this case, at least initially, to JzG's actions as an administrator, allowing, pending resolution of that issue, normal process to address my own errors, such as they may be. If the Committee does this, I need not answer all the allegations and irrelevant false charges being made on the Evidence page, knowing that, later, I would have an opportunity to address them if they do not become moot. There is some discussion of this at Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Abd and JzG/Workshop#Possible motion to narrow focus of this case.--Abd (talk) 17:43, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think that Abd's and JzG's actions each need to stand on their own. Even if Abd's accusations prove incorrect, that does not mean Abd has done wrong. On the other hand, if JzG is found to have misused tools, that does not exonerate Abd. There are possible outcomes where both are right or both are wrong. Jehochman Talk 02:31, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with Jehochman. Unfortunately, I don't see any other support appearing for the concept of disentangling the issues. There is no argument with the decision of the arbitrators to examine the conduct of all parties; the question is only one of sequence. A person is not charged with frivolous litgation until after the original cause of action has been found to be baseless. We don't prosecute someone for false fire alarm until we first check to see if there is a fire, and we don't, to save time, do both at once. I know what I was suggesting, I know that it would simplify process, and I also know that Wikipedia does things the hard way, but it's really up to ArbComm. My experience tells me that when I make a motion and nobody seconds it, shut up and move on, it doesn't matter how right I think I am. --Abd (talk) 04:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain." This is just as much about Abd's ongoing incivility, wikihounding and general disruptive behavior as it is about JzG's long past recusals or lack thereof. Hipocrite (talk) 17:46, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- I see where Abd is coming from with this, but don't think the case will go any faster or be any more efficient a use of time if it is split into two. Fritzpoll (talk) 20:19, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Six of the 11 accepting arbs indicated an expilict intent to examine the actions of all parties (by my rough count). It's a little late for one of the parties to suggest their own actions shouldn't be considered until the other party has been examined. Especially since the suggesting party has used every possible avenue to have the "other" party examined and censured leading up to this case. Franamax (talk) 01:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- Follow up: I think the problem here is that a finding of wrongdoing by JzG does not imply a specific finding (or lack thereof) with regards to Abd. JzG can have been found to have done something wrong and Abd could be sanctioned for having approached it inappropriately. I think Abd views this case as having two possible combinations of findings: (JzG = wrong, Abd = right) or (JzG = right, Abd = wrong). In reality, it is possible for both parties to be right or both parties to be wrong (crudely speaking) and so it is of greater efficiency to examine the parties together, when the evidence is necessarily overlapping. Abd is not being "prosecuted" for frivolous litigation, but his behaviour is being examined in how the complaint was pursued. Fritzpoll (talk) 08:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Template
2)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
3)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposed temporary injunctions
Template
1)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
3)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
4)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Questions to the parties
Proposed final decision
Proposals by Jehochman
Proposed principles
Policy and point of view
1) Verifiability, Neutral point of view, No original research, and What Wikipedia is not are core policies. They are not points of view.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- We welcome editors with different points of view. We do not welcome editors who persistently violate content policies. There are claims that Guy was involved because of his efforts to enforce these policies. Jehochman Talk 10:22, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. Maybe I just don't get it. Who said they were points of view? Why does this need to be said? If there were specific application shown, maybe. Guy claimed reliance on policies, often, but his understanding of how to apply them was colored by his involvement. No allegation has been made by me of bad faith; he clearly believes that our policies would prohibit, for example, any linking whatever, for whatever purpose, to lenr-canr.org, and he even edit warred in an attempt to prevent it after we managed to get one page whitelisted. However, that same assumption of good faith requires me to consider that he hasn't been competent to judge when to recuse or not, and recusal when involved is also a policy. Somebody look up the page please! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abd (talk • contribs)
- Comment by others:
- Just wanted to point out that NOT is NOT a 'core' policy, at least by most people's definitions. It's a policy, but not one we die by, like V, NPOV, and NOR. rootology (C)(T) 01:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. Contradicts WP:NPOV, which says "As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints". It's also unclear what the relevance is to this case. It's very common for content disputes to revolve around different interpretations of how to apply content policies in specific situations. Believing that one is enforcing a content policy is not normally an excuse for editwarring, for example, regardless of whether a later majority vote or consensus decision agrees with your interpretation or not. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 15:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Dispute resolution
2) Dispute resolution is for resolving disagreements. It may not be used to intimidate, pressure or wear down an opponent.
2.1) Dispute resolution is for good faith attempts to resolve disagreements. It may not be used to intimidate, pressure or wear down an opponent. Likewise, editors may not exert improper influence, such as threatening blocks or bans, to deter others from making legitimate dispute resolution requests.
2.2) Dispute resolution is a process for resolving disagreements over article content or editorial behavior. It requires the same civility standards as every other action on Wikipedia and should not be abused to make personal attacks. Users who are misusing this process as a way to intimidate, pressure or wear down one or more editors may be sanctioned. Likewise, editors may not exert improper influence, such as threatening blocks or bans, to deter others from making legitimate dispute resolution requests.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- I added 2.2 to synthesize what I'd seen so far. I'm still not confident it's complete. DR hasn't been used with me, mostly, so I don't see it from that side; editors not infrequently warn me, complain about me, but don't take the next step of involving a third editor, especially of involving someone neutral. In the other direction, I've seen an RfC filed by admins on an editor when, clearly, the goal from the beginning wasn't to develop consensus but to ban the editor, with whom they were in content conflict, and simply to show a basis for that. Something I'd really like to see this RfAr encourage is for WP:DR to be followed by the book and by the intent of it. It works, usually, even at a quite low level, and it only fails when positions are entrenched, in which case escalation becomes necessary. --Abd (talk) 01:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Elemental but too vague. I think it should rather be expanded, maybe like this:
- Dispute resolution is a process for resolving disagreements over an article's content. It requires the same civility standards as every other action on Wikipedia and should not be abused to make personal attacks. Users who are misusing this process as a way to intimidate, pressure or wear down one or more editors who hold different views can and will be sanctioned accordingly.
- Thoughts? Regards SoWhy 20:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- Normally, WP:BATTLE is in part defined as a failure to use proper DR channels. The wording here is very vague and eminently gameable; we may expect many disruptive editors to invoke it, if it becomes part of the decision. DurovaCharge! 23:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- In my experience, WP:BATTLE has included instances when people used WP:DR with no intention of actually resolving a dispute. They were trying to get their opponents sanctioned, blocked or banned, by whatever means were available. See also vexatious litigation. Jehochman Talk 00:27, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- The dispute resolution used here was conduct RfC, initiated because Abd saw a need for recusal with regard to the spam blacklist. Considering that within about the last day a site was removed from the spam blacklist by consensus, and that JzG himself agreed during RFAR that he probably ought to have recused, I am curious to know how this case might be distinguishable from normal and proper use of dispute resolution. What is vexatious about this? DurovaCharge! 00:38, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- You're jumping ahead. This is a principal, not a finding of fact. Various people have alleged vexatious litigation. We should first agree to the principal that vexatious litigation is a bad thing. Then we can look at the evidence and see if that happened, or not, and explain why or why not. This is how we can get people on both sides to agree, hopefully. I have done a very large amount of negotiating in real life and have a pretty good concept of how to get to "yes". Jehochman Talk 00:41, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- The dispute resolution used here was conduct RfC, initiated because Abd saw a need for recusal with regard to the spam blacklist. Considering that within about the last day a site was removed from the spam blacklist by consensus, and that JzG himself agreed during RFAR that he probably ought to have recused, I am curious to know how this case might be distinguishable from normal and proper use of dispute resolution. What is vexatious about this? DurovaCharge! 00:38, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- In my experience, WP:BATTLE has included instances when people used WP:DR with no intention of actually resolving a dispute. They were trying to get their opponents sanctioned, blocked or banned, by whatever means were available. See also vexatious litigation. Jehochman Talk 00:27, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- Hows about Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not about winning? Is that the idea you're after? rootology (C)(T) 01:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- Both the versions proposed by Jehochman and SoWhy refer to misuse of the DR process by intimidation and pressure. However, as Durova has noted, it is proper for some disputes to escalate through the process, and this is sometimes met with accusations this escalation is actually inappropriate pressure, wikilawyering or battling. I think Jehochman is right that a pinciple noting the inappropriateness of vexatious litigation is needed; however, recognition is also needed that attempts to intimidate people into dropping a case or not escalating to the next step in DR is just as wrong. The mere fact that someone has moved to the next stage of DR is not a reasonable basis for criticism. EdChem (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- How about 2.1? There are allegations in this case that improper influences were exerted to prevent DR from moving forward. Jehochman Talk 14:46, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think 2.1 is a substantial improvement... it recognises both types of abuses - and I think there are allegations of both in this case. EdChem (talk) 14:58, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- I haven't kept it in mind, but there were instances of threats that I'd be sanctioned if I continued. JzG, though, only wrote something like this once, as I recall. Nothing I'd bring up. I suppose I could look it up if someone thinks it relevant. The RfC was filled with comments that I should be banned, basically for pursuing WP:DR, though of course it wasn't stated that way. Rather, as I recall, it was for "disruption," for "beating a dead horse," for harassing JzG, or for unrelated offenses. Hey! that dead horse just got up and ran out the barn door! (newenergytimes removed from the blacklist, lenr-canr.org has one whitelisting and really is a very similar situation to lenr-canr.org, so one-and-a half down, a few to go. None of the other issues have been presented for DR resolution beyond initial comment. --Abd (talk) 01:39, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think 2.1 is a substantial improvement... it recognises both types of abuses - and I think there are allegations of both in this case. EdChem (talk) 14:58, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- How about 2.1? There are allegations in this case that improper influences were exerted to prevent DR from moving forward. Jehochman Talk 14:46, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. 2.1 is an improvement over 2, but I have concerns about this sentence: "It may not be used to intimidate, pressure or wear down an opponent." Giving someone escalating warnings, then applying sanctions or soliciting opinions from other users, with the ultimate goal of persuading the person to change their behaviour to conform to a policy or guideline, could be described as "wearing down" the person, and the use or warning of use of sanctions could be described as "intimidating", but such actions are a normal and necessary part of wikiinteraction. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 15:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- The operative term is opponent. One should not be sanctioning an opponent. If you come into a situation as uninvolved, you are free to warn or sanction an editor as required to protect the project from disruption. I am sure the wording could be improved. Please propose something, Coppertwig. Jehochman Talk 23:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- CommentThis comes across as disingenuous (I know, AGF etc). You've proposed two principles. The first one you pretty much explicitly say is intended to move things towards your preferred conclusion (Guy is only seen as involved because of his darling efforts to enforce policy). The second one you then indignantly defend as just being a principle when people naturally see it as another step towards your desired conclusion. You say you have done a lot of negotiating in real life but is that really how you find it works - you propose a set of principles on the basis that the first one is directed towards exonerating party A and the second one is just setting out that if party B did what he's accused of then that would be BAD (let's agree that before discussing whether he did it...). Do you think that in negotiations outside of Wikipedia that party B would tend to view that as antagonistic? Why not start by saying how inappropriate it would be to make admin actions when involve in a content dispute, because Guy's accused of that? Don't get me wrong, you're allowed to be partisan I'm sure, but I don't think jumping backwards and fowards between partisan advocate and neutral negotiator is going to work. (disclaimer, not a party, yes a busy body, no account etc. etc. But that doesn't affect the point I'm making) 87.254.80.250 (talk) 19:04, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- Using tools while involved is inconsistent with 2.1, at least as I read it. It is likely to be intimidatory. It certainly is using improper influence. And, it is questionable whether such an action is taken in good faith. However, I would agree that the principle that using tools while involved is inappropriate, potentially sanctionable, and that it invites additional scrutiny should also be stated. Admin recusal is definitely an issue in this case. EdChem (talk) 20:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, I've held off on this as long as possible. Both versions of this proposed principle include the assertion that dispute resolution may not be used to intimidate. Compare that wording to an occasion that happened less than one month ago in connection to the JzG RFC. I had posted to Jehochman's talk page saying "I have no wish to enter formal dispute resolution with you, but no reluctance to either. So if you wish to shake cyberhands, please post a few words to that effect. Best wishes," (full text here)[1] which Jehochman blanked with an unpleasant edit summary[2] and followed up at my user talk to say "I despise the way you keep threatening me with process," (full text here).[3] Now if--according to Jehochman's own words--that constitutes a misuse of dispute resolution on my part, then I am at a loss to conceive how I may ever use it properly. Are editors to be left without recourse when an administrator assaults their integrity? DurovaCharge! 21:16, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- No, editors may request dispute resolution at any time, if they do so in good faith. What they may not do is use threats of dispute resolution (vexatious litigation) in an attempt to dominate another editor, or overwhelm them to redundant complaints hither and thither. Jehochman Talk 23:20, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- How do you reconcile that with your own reaction to my statement less than three weeks ago that you did not come to the JzG RfC with clean hands on matters of recusal, and that if I were the initiator of this case it would have been named Administrative recusal and included you as a named party? The terms upon which you initiated this case and have presented workshop proposals could be read as an attempt to frame the scope of discussion in terms of a microdispute between JzG and Abd, which might be laudable on the part of a truly disinterested Wikipedian, but the fact is that it also happens to be to your direct advantage to define the scope on these terms--in ways which you have not disclosed within the case despite your very active presence here as case initiator and workshop proposal writer. DurovaCharge! 00:18, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- No, editors may request dispute resolution at any time, if they do so in good faith. What they may not do is use threats of dispute resolution (vexatious litigation) in an attempt to dominate another editor, or overwhelm them to redundant complaints hither and thither. Jehochman Talk 23:20, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, I've held off on this as long as possible. Both versions of this proposed principle include the assertion that dispute resolution may not be used to intimidate. Compare that wording to an occasion that happened less than one month ago in connection to the JzG RFC. I had posted to Jehochman's talk page saying "I have no wish to enter formal dispute resolution with you, but no reluctance to either. So if you wish to shake cyberhands, please post a few words to that effect. Best wishes," (full text here)[1] which Jehochman blanked with an unpleasant edit summary[2] and followed up at my user talk to say "I despise the way you keep threatening me with process," (full text here).[3] Now if--according to Jehochman's own words--that constitutes a misuse of dispute resolution on my part, then I am at a loss to conceive how I may ever use it properly. Are editors to be left without recourse when an administrator assaults their integrity? DurovaCharge! 21:16, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- Using tools while involved is inconsistent with 2.1, at least as I read it. It is likely to be intimidatory. It certainly is using improper influence. And, it is questionable whether such an action is taken in good faith. However, I would agree that the principle that using tools while involved is inappropriate, potentially sanctionable, and that it invites additional scrutiny should also be stated. Admin recusal is definitely an issue in this case. EdChem (talk) 20:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- Elemental but too vague. I think it should rather be expanded, maybe like this:
(unindent) Sheesh! Look away for a few minutes and the kids are squabbling again. Durova et al, Jehochman's proposal is basically right and does no harm, especially if the best and most complete wording is accepted. I know that there is lots you can say about this, and it's mostly better left not said. Sure, I don't like Jehochman's "framing," not really expressed with this proposal, and, sure, it's part of the problem, but, one issue at a time. Part of building consensus is accepting whatever is, at worst, harmless from the other parties. With other proposed findings or principles, the "personal squabble" framing may come up, though the nails are falling out day by day. We can deal with it then and, Durova, I'm sure you'll have plenty to say on it if it does, and I may be right there with you. Meanwhile, I've got the rest of my evidence to prepare, articles to work on, and kids to get to school in the morning.... --Abd (talk) 01:27, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- If anyone needs proof that Abd and I are not two peas in a pod, there you have it. Now as everyone probably knows, Jehochman and I haven't always been best of chums either. Regardless, each issue I raise is presented on its merits--not as a pretext for supporting or opposing particular people. People can find themselves in awkward positions when workshop proposals go up too early; that probably applies on all sides. DurovaCharge! 02:06, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Durova, I have no doubt that you raise some valid points. Yes, I thought it was early myself; how about having a week's evidence? Is there some emergency here? I don't think so, JzG isn't editing at all (may have nothing to do with this), though some may think my editing a problem. But if that's an emergency, every admin has a block button and, besides, I respond to warnings from administrators. Even when I don't agree with them; I then, if I think it important, follow WP:DR with the warning admin or at least obtain community support before proceeding. But obviously Jehochman had a different view, and it takes all kinds to build a project. --Abd (talk) 02:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Spam blacklist
3) The spam blacklist is used to prevent the addition of links to Wikipedia which have been spammed abused widely. The spam blacklist is not for filtering out unreliable sources.
3.1) The spam blacklist is used to prevent the addition of links to Wikipedia which have been, or are likely to be, abused widely, or which contain malware or copyright violations.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Proposed. May need technical tweaks. Jehochman Talk 23:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- Support. Yes, it might need some expansion, because there may be some applications of the blacklist beyond wide linkspam. However, this statement does leave room for other possible uses, it simply rules out one that is, by consensus when considered, not legitimate. Going further than that here may not be appropriate. --Abd (talk) 02:41, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Ummm. As "spammed," the word might offend some editor, yes, but "abused" opens the door to discussion at the blacklist of what constitutes abuse. "Linkspam" is a term of art that refers to massive addition of links without finding consensus even if the links are legitimate, and routinely, I've seen sites blacklisted where every link was legitimate in hindsight, but being added in volumes such that there is also legitimate concern that the links aren't receiving due consideration. Then, because blacklisting creates a severe problem for naive editors who can't save an edit to any part of an article or section they are editing, because of some link that they won't necessarily recognize, the links must be removed. So antispam volunteers end up, sometimes massively, reverting good edits with no discussion. Convenient for the antispammers, but sometimes harmful to content. Instead of "spammed" or "abused," I'd suggest "to prevent the massive and rapid addition of links to Wikipedia without a showing of acceptability." Otherwise we will see what we've seen in Beetstra's evidence, that links added in a good faith belief that they were appropriate, over a long period of time, come to be viewed as evidence of abuse. "Abuse" is a term which could apply to any allegedly inappropriate link. "Copyright violations," unless massive or involving a site where we should know that copyvio is likely, is an argument that was used against lenr-canr.org and newenergytimes.com. Possible violations below that level create no legal risk for Wikipedia. Editors should not have to verify and prove that a page on a durable and readily visible web site is not a copyright violation, it turns quick edits into a red tape nightmare. Low-level copyright problems need no blacklist, the blacklist is quite clearly designed in MediaWiki for prevention of massive linkspam that can't be dealt with any other way. Possible exceptions to "massive addition without review" or whatever should be documented and accepted by consensus, otherwise there will continually be disruption about this. Absolutely, a A.B. notes below, malware is an excellent exception, one that can be treated as an emergency. What is essential is that broad generalizations about the supposed unusability of a web site ("Not reliable source") not become a reason for blacklisting. --Abd (talk) 17:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Generally support, though one might consider "The 'spam blacklist' is used to prevent the addition of links to Wikipedia which have been abused widely" (spam and spamming being negative perojatives which tend to offend people). --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:08, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Comment: We sometimes blacklist sites on en.wikipedia that are extremely abusive but have not been widely spammed. Furthermore, URL redirects or malware sites are blacklisted on site on Meta. Copyvio sites are also often blacklisted even if not widely spammed. Finally, we'll often blacklist a spammer's other domains even if not yet spammed when the spammer has ignored multiple warnings regarding his spam domains. --A. B. (talk • contribs) 19:38, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Additional comment: the blacklist is occasionally used to filter out unreliable sources; the most prominent instance was Jimbo Wales' decision to blacklist blog.myspace.com. The instances are few and far between but appropriate in my opinion. --A. B. (talk • contribs) 20:42, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Proposed findings of fact
Abd and dispute resolution
1) User:Abd has not used dispute resolution in bad faith.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- This gets into assigning motivation, which is dangerous ground for ArbCom. It also seems a bit misplaced - after all, the worst harm that has befallen this encyclopedia has been done by people unshakably convinced that they were acting in the best interests of the project. MastCell Talk 03:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- We can't know motivation; true. We can draw reasonable conclusions based on observed behavior. Abd has been accused of causing severe disruption. At some point we have to decided this issue. If there has been a failure of community-based dispute resolution, we have to find out why. I am proposing that Abd has not acted so improperly that they could be deemed as acting in bad faith. Fact is, Durova supports Abd's position, so he's not alone in this. There's probably at least some merit to his complaint. Jehochman Talk 15:55, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- This gets into assigning motivation, which is dangerous ground for ArbCom. It also seems a bit misplaced - after all, the worst harm that has befallen this encyclopedia has been done by people unshakably convinced that they were acting in the best interests of the project. MastCell Talk 03:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
JzG and Cold Fusion
2) JzG has stated that he will not administrate in the area of cold fusion going forward.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Just to make clear what was already agreed at the suggestion of User:Newyorkbrad. Jehochman Talk 23:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- The only problem with this is that the issue wasn't Cold fusion, it was admin recusal. Do we need a separate promise for every article and situation that JzG might encounter where he should recuse? Does he promise not to block Nuxx bar? Quite simply, I didn't look for general abuse of tools, just with respect to one article. However, no big problem, it's just a fact, I think, if supported by a diff. It's just not terribly relevant. Let's see what the evidence page shows after a week, and especially after JzG submits evidence, if he does. --Abd (talk) 02:38, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think it is clear that the specific instance serves as a warning for the general situation. JzG is clueful and well-meaning. I think he'll be more careful about recusal going forward. Hopefully he'll post something to that effect. Jehochman Talk 03:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'd like to think that; unfortunately, the evidence shows otherwise. JzG was under an RfC for failure to recuse, and, in the middle of it, he removed an IP edit from the RfC and blocked, while, on the face, involved. Even if JzG had some legitimate reason for the block, the appearance of involvement creates an obligation to recuse. This block, a few days ago, shows a failure to take the matter seriously and to alter behavior, even under scrutiny. Cold fusion was merely an example. While it seems possible it was a coincidence that investigating Cold fusion history turned up so much evidence, it's unlikely. From prior cases, such as those of Tango and Physchim62, with showing of "pattern" less than seen here, the community and the committee seem likely to need an acknowledgment from the administrator that a subject action was a violation, and then, a promise not to repeat such violations -- with any involvement -- in the future. Physchim62 and Tango, no doubt, blocked in good faith, but showed, by the action, a disregard of recusal requirements, and continued, once challenged, to defend the actions as proper, as has JzG. It was very clear with Physchim62 (and, I think, Tango) that the community and committee would have forgiven everything if they had acknowledged the error. So far, after much request, JzG came up with, in his statement in this RfAr, "maybe I am not the best person to take action on that article any more, having become imbroiled in the dispute." This acknowledges no violation, in fact. So what happens the next time JzG encounters a situation, is involved, and thinks he should block or blacklist or whatever? Will he recognize the involvement and recuse? There is no question of punishment, but it is not punishment to prevent further damage when there is reason to suspect that damage will recur. --Abd (talk) 17:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- No comment on most of your post, Abd, but I just want to point out that this FoF only refers to JzG's further administrative involvement in the topic of cold fusion; it makes no assertion that he has stated he will similarly recuse himself elsewhere, which seems to be what you're concerned about. The statement you quote ("maybe I am not the best person to take action on that article any more, having become imbroiled in the dispute.") does state that he will stop using the tools with respect to cold fusion. Hersfold (t/a/c) 18:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- The problem, from my perspective, is that Abd keeps saying that Guy has had ongoing problems, but the evidence doesn't support that. Am I missing something? Is this block really the only instance of recent "admin abuse" to be found? Because I think you'll find it difficult to get people up in arms about blocking an obvious troll who followed Guy here from an off-wiki dispute. There's not much substance here. Time might be better spent organizing and presenting actual evidence of an active problem (diffs, log entries, etc) rather than repeating claims which seem to lack a sound foundation. MastCell Talk 21:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- No comment on most of your post, Abd, but I just want to point out that this FoF only refers to JzG's further administrative involvement in the topic of cold fusion; it makes no assertion that he has stated he will similarly recuse himself elsewhere, which seems to be what you're concerned about. The statement you quote ("maybe I am not the best person to take action on that article any more, having become imbroiled in the dispute.") does state that he will stop using the tools with respect to cold fusion. Hersfold (t/a/c) 18:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'd like to think that; unfortunately, the evidence shows otherwise. JzG was under an RfC for failure to recuse, and, in the middle of it, he removed an IP edit from the RfC and blocked, while, on the face, involved. Even if JzG had some legitimate reason for the block, the appearance of involvement creates an obligation to recuse. This block, a few days ago, shows a failure to take the matter seriously and to alter behavior, even under scrutiny. Cold fusion was merely an example. While it seems possible it was a coincidence that investigating Cold fusion history turned up so much evidence, it's unlikely. From prior cases, such as those of Tango and Physchim62, with showing of "pattern" less than seen here, the community and the committee seem likely to need an acknowledgment from the administrator that a subject action was a violation, and then, a promise not to repeat such violations -- with any involvement -- in the future. Physchim62 and Tango, no doubt, blocked in good faith, but showed, by the action, a disregard of recusal requirements, and continued, once challenged, to defend the actions as proper, as has JzG. It was very clear with Physchim62 (and, I think, Tango) that the community and committee would have forgiven everything if they had acknowledged the error. So far, after much request, JzG came up with, in his statement in this RfAr, "maybe I am not the best person to take action on that article any more, having become imbroiled in the dispute." This acknowledges no violation, in fact. So what happens the next time JzG encounters a situation, is involved, and thinks he should block or blacklist or whatever? Will he recognize the involvement and recuse? There is no question of punishment, but it is not punishment to prevent further damage when there is reason to suspect that damage will recur. --Abd (talk) 17:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think it is clear that the specific instance serves as a warning for the general situation. JzG is clueful and well-meaning. I think he'll be more careful about recusal going forward. Hopefully he'll post something to that effect. Jehochman Talk 03:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- The only problem with this is that the issue wasn't Cold fusion, it was admin recusal. Do we need a separate promise for every article and situation that JzG might encounter where he should recuse? Does he promise not to block Nuxx bar? Quite simply, I didn't look for general abuse of tools, just with respect to one article. However, no big problem, it's just a fact, I think, if supported by a diff. It's just not terribly relevant. Let's see what the evidence page shows after a week, and especially after JzG submits evidence, if he does. --Abd (talk) 02:38, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Template
1) {text of proposed remedy}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2) {text of proposed remedy}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposed enforcement
Template
1) {text of proposed enforcement}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2) {text of proposed enforcement}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposals by User:Ronnotel
Proposed principles
Tools exist primarily to sanction behavior, not content
1) The use of administrative tools should be limited to the minimum required to prevent disruptive behavior. Using them to restrict access to material in a content dispute should be avoided.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- At their most fundamental level, administrative tools are meant to be coercive - i.e. to discourage disruptive behavior and encourage productive. Their effectiveness is lost when they are employed against something incapable of learning, such as the content itself. Ronnotel (talk) 21:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree with the general statement, "Tools exist to sanction behavior, not content" however I would support "Using the blacklist to restrict access to material in a content dispute among established editors should be avoided." As to whether the blacklist is a behavioral or content tool can be a matter of semantics; It's commonly said in dealing with spammers that "blocking is a behavioral tool to protect Wikipedia while domain blacklisting is a content tool." We sometimes use page protection, another tool, in content disputes for brief periods of time. --A. B. (talk • contribs) 20:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- I take your point, AB. However, I do think it's important to stress that the primary purpose of the tools is to address behavior. I believe a much higher level of care should be shown when they are used to address content concerns. I suspect this is something we can readily agree upon. Is the description of my proposed principal in line with your thoughts? If so, perhaps we can come up with a better tag line? How about Tools exist primarily to sanction behavior, not content'? Ronnotel (talk) 01:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- I've discussed this at great length with Beetstra. The general statement is accurate. "Should be avoided" doesn't mean that there are no circumstances where the blacklist process may -- nay, must -- consider content. Maybe a general statement about use of admin tools is important, but perhaps also a more specific one about the blacklist itself. Bottom line: blacklisting was designed to deal only with massive linkspam, that couldn't be handled other ways, so if that doesn't exist, there should be no blacklisting, and exceptions would require a strong showing of damage (such as malware, good example). Then, if the danger is past, delisting should probably be routine. I will, later, give examples. However, if there is real and present danger of massive linkspam, then whitelisting specific pages becomes a cumbersome but necessary way of dealing with legitimate use, and this, then, should require some showing of either necessity, or, possibly, simple, nearly automatic process whereby registered editors can easily request whitelisting, not be grilled about it, and it's granted by a neutral admin, and blacklist volunteer admins would not ever decline a whitelisting request, because of the circularity that gets set up. This means less burden on the blacklist volunteers, who do a very important and difficult job. --Abd (talk) 14:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree with the general statement, "Tools exist to sanction behavior, not content" however I would support "Using the blacklist to restrict access to material in a content dispute among established editors should be avoided." As to whether the blacklist is a behavioral or content tool can be a matter of semantics; It's commonly said in dealing with spammers that "blocking is a behavioral tool to protect Wikipedia while domain blacklisting is a content tool." We sometimes use page protection, another tool, in content disputes for brief periods of time. --A. B. (talk • contribs) 20:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed, Abd and I have discussed this at great length, and agree on the basis of the terms (sometimes disagreeing on some semantics or on terms, but well). Admin tools should indeed not be used to control content, we fully agree on that. But I disagree that page protection, blocking people and blacklisting links is 'controlling content'! The only 'content' that is blocked by blacklisting a link is the external link in the external links section. I still insist that blacklisting a link does not disable adding content to the body, and referencing it to the material on the blacklisted site (pointy example, but again, if I say, that I said in revid 283836766 on this wiki "I am not disputing, anywhere, that these sites contains good information and with the copies that are there there are no copyright issues.", then you are able to confirm that; it is more work, but it does not make it untrue, unverifyable etc.!) You only can't link to it anymore (in references, the link is a convenience link, not a absolute must, though it is certainly helpful (and I am talking about content space, not about talkpage discussions, yes, it also hampers discussion on talkpages!!). Also, it is not the end, specific links can still be whitelisted where needed. Blacklisting hence slows down the editing, and makes people think about what they add, and 'forces' discussion, but I do not believe that it really controls content. --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Proposals by User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris
Proposed principles
The purpose of talk pages
1) The purpose of talk pages is to communicate. Users should make sufficient effort so that others can understand them.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Proposed; paraphrased from the policy page WP:TALK. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Long, rambling messages
2) Talk page comments should be concise. Posts longer than 100 words should be shortened. Long, rambling messages are difficult to understand, and are frequently either ignored or misunderstood.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- 100 words limit per talkpage post? Geez, if someone enforces that against me, the only question will be should I retire, or just type every fifth word? (How long has that been in the guideline, anyway? Quite seriously, I've never noticed or heard of it before.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Proposed. Taken near-verbatim from the policy page WP:TALK. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:45, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- Struck the "100 words" bit per NYB. The important point is "Long, rambling messages are difficult to understand, and are frequently either ignored or misunderstood"; the 100-words specification is not central to the principle. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Proposals by User:Y
Proposed principles
Template
1) {text of Proposed principle}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2) {text of Proposed principle}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposed findings of fact
Template
1) {text of proposed finding of fact}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2) {text of proposed finding of fact}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Template
1) {text of proposed remedy}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2) {text of proposed remedy}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposed enforcement
Template
1) {text of proposed enforcement}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2) {text of proposed enforcement}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposed enforcement
Template
1) {text of proposed enforcement}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2) {text of proposed enforcement}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposals by User:Z
Proposed principles
Template
1) {text of Proposed principle}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2) {text of Proposed principle}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposed findings of fact
Template
1) {text of proposed finding of fact}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2) {text of proposed finding of fact}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Template
1) {text of proposed remedy}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2) {text of proposed remedy}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposed enforcement
Template
1) {text of proposed enforcement}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
2) {text of proposed enforcement}
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Analysis of evidence
Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis
Template
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Template
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
General discussion
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others: