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And after reading it I concluded that an exception was a possibility. Once again, I don't care about DM at all. I did not even know DM existed. The video itself is clearly reliable, contrary to the claim by MjolnirPants above. The video, as pointed out in another reply above, a Primary source, so it should not be excluded. |
And after reading it I concluded that an exception was a possibility. Once again, I don't care about DM at all. I did not even know DM existed. The video itself is clearly reliable, contrary to the claim by MjolnirPants above. The video, as pointed out in another reply above, a Primary source, so it should not be excluded. |
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I do understand that editors do not want to promote a conspiracy theory. Neither do I. But it does not seem right to suppress the job offer on that basis. There are many examples on WP, notably the Lee Oswald article as one example, where some facts are seized upon by conspiracy theorists, but they belong in the article anyway, because they are facts that contribute to understanding the background of the story. I don't think that we want to engage in anything equivalent to editing Yezhov out of the photo with Stalin. Seth Rich's father made these statements. They have been reported. They have been deliberately excluded from the Seth Rich article, using a variety of weak excuses. The authentic nature of the video is indisputable, the video is not available from another source, the father of Seth Rich describes the job offer and the murder in the same sentence, and it is independently supported by similar statements made by the father to WashingtonPost. [[User:StreetSign|StreetSign]] ([[User talk:StreetSign|talk]]) 20:25, 11 March 2018 (UTC) |
I do understand that editors do not want to promote a conspiracy theory. Neither do I. But it does not seem right to suppress the job offer on that basis. There are many examples on WP, notably the Lee Oswald article as one example, where some facts are seized upon by conspiracy theorists, but they belong in the article anyway, because they are facts that contribute to understanding the background of the story. I don't think that we want to engage in anything equivalent to editing Yezhov out of the photo with Stalin. Seth Rich's father made these statements. They have been reported. They have been deliberately excluded from the Seth Rich article, using a variety of weak excuses. The authentic nature of the video is indisputable, the video is not available from another source, the father of Seth Rich describes the job offer and the murder in the same sentence, and it is independently supported by similar statements made by the father to WashingtonPost. "He had just been asked to join the Clinton campaign, four days before he was murdered." (and then later in the video) "He had just found out that they wanted him."[[User:StreetSign|StreetSign]] ([[User talk:StreetSign|talk]]) 20:25, 11 March 2018 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:34, 11 March 2018
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Jeremy Bates New York Jets Quarterbacks Coach
The page for Jeremy Bates incorrectly identifies him as the Offensive Coordinator for the New York Jets. He is listed on the official New York Jets website as the quarterbacks coach, a position he has held for about a year. On January 19, 2018 a piece was published in the New York Daily news that contained speculation that Bates would be named Offensive Coordinator for the Jets but no announcement has been forthcoming and no change has been made to the official website. There has been no verification of any kind by Bates or anyone connected with the Jets that he has been promoted.
Edit filter for the Daily Mail
(Formerly: Cross-post of WP:EFN discussion) A year ago, this noticeboard resolved that links to the Daily Mail would generally be banned on this project. The ban has never been technically implemented, however. A discussion was started at EFN last month to finally set the Mail filter to warn, but it fell off of the noticeboard due to lack of participation. I just rescued the discussion from the archives, and I thought that this time around I'd cross-post here, since the discussion is arguably more relevant to this board than to that one. — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 14:09, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
- Make it so. Guy (Help!) 23:03, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
- Support No reason to not have this in my view. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:51, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
- Support - This would be help a lot. We should also do this for Breitbart, and possibly others.- MrX 🖋 16:29, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Unnecesary vanity tags that just waste volunteer time. --DHeyward (talk) 05:36, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
- I'm reviving this discussion with the hope of coming to a conclusion. I just had to revert WP:BDP content cited to the Daily Mail. It would be nice if this filter were implemented.- MrX 🖋 19:40, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- @MrX: Surprisingly, there still are over 27,000 articles in Wikipedia that cite the Daily Mail. Would it be necessary to replace these references if this filter were implemented? Jarble (talk) 21:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- That's a good question Jarble. I don't know, but I doubt it. Perhaps PinkAmpersand knows.- MrX 🖋 22:04, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- On a technical level, no, nothing would need to be done. The filter would only catch edits adding references to the Mail; it wouldn't do anything to edits to articles with preexisting references. Also, while the support/oppose !votes here aren't unhelpful, they're just relitigating a settled issue. What needs to be decided is how to implement the RfC consensus, and I would encourage editors to comment on that matter at EFN (rather than here, since EFN has the ultimate say on this). — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 23:21, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Technically wouldnt it flag up if someone edited a section/article with an existing DM reference? That would at least prompt people to replace it. (oh and support filter etc etc) Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- PinkAmpersand, has blacklisting been considered? I see that The Daily Mailer is blacklisted, but not the Daily Mail. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 15:12, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- @BullRangifer: I'm not sure. That would be a good question to ask at EFN. — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 15:34, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- PinkAmpersand, if I understand things rightly, this is probably the best place to seek a consensus on whether to move forward (not the final decision) with blacklisting a source. With a consensus in hand, then a "nomination" at MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist would likely result in a blacklisting. Does that make sense? Should we start a new thread seeking an actual blacklisting, since that's different than the subject of this thread? -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:40, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- @BullRangifer: Ah, I see your point. I thought you were asking more of a technical question. Anyways, personally I'd be against outright blacklisting, since there's a decent number of cases where Mail links are permitted. A filter that warns but does not block seems more flexible than a spam blacklist that outright blocks. — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 17:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Okay, that makes sense. Then I'll settle for a filter. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:33, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- @BullRangifer: Ah, I see your point. I thought you were asking more of a technical question. Anyways, personally I'd be against outright blacklisting, since there's a decent number of cases where Mail links are permitted. A filter that warns but does not block seems more flexible than a spam blacklist that outright blocks. — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 17:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- PinkAmpersand, if I understand things rightly, this is probably the best place to seek a consensus on whether to move forward (not the final decision) with blacklisting a source. With a consensus in hand, then a "nomination" at MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist would likely result in a blacklisting. Does that make sense? Should we start a new thread seeking an actual blacklisting, since that's different than the subject of this thread? -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:40, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- @BullRangifer: I'm not sure. That would be a good question to ask at EFN. — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 15:34, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- @Only in death: No, that's not how the filter works. If you look at the source code, you'll see that it only checks whether the added text (
added_lines
) has a Mail link, not whether the article itself (new_wikitext
) does. You can see for yourself: Go make a copy-edit to an article with a Mail link, and then check your own filter log. You shouldn't see an entry for the edit. — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 15:35, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- PinkAmpersand, has blacklisting been considered? I see that The Daily Mailer is blacklisted, but not the Daily Mail. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 15:12, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Technically wouldnt it flag up if someone edited a section/article with an existing DM reference? That would at least prompt people to replace it. (oh and support filter etc etc) Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- On a technical level, no, nothing would need to be done. The filter would only catch edits adding references to the Mail; it wouldn't do anything to edits to articles with preexisting references. Also, while the support/oppose !votes here aren't unhelpful, they're just relitigating a settled issue. What needs to be decided is how to implement the RfC consensus, and I would encourage editors to comment on that matter at EFN (rather than here, since EFN has the ultimate say on this). — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 23:21, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- That's a good question Jarble. I don't know, but I doubt it. Perhaps PinkAmpersand knows.- MrX 🖋 22:04, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Support its about time we do this.Vinegarymass911 (talk) 01:42, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Support I see no valid reason that we should not warn users not to add cites to the Daily Myth.Slatersteven (talk) 16:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Steven, did you mean to write "warn users to not add cites"? -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 16:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- LOL, yes, a not in the wrong place, how DM of me.Slatersteven (talk) 16:51, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Censorship is not the answer. Likewise the discussion resolved that DM is acceptable in certain circumstances. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 17:29, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- The C of E, you do realize this isn't a ban, but just a warning to be cautious? No one is asking for censorship. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:35, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- We "censor" things all the time. The blacklist has thousands of websites, many titles and word are blacklisted. The Daily Mail is not, by community consensus, a reliable source, so this should change nothing at all, other than saving people the annoyance of having to revert crappy sources. Guy (Help!) 22:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Support a filter. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 17:35, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Support. Seems to be a no-brainer. --Calton | Talk 03:09, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Support As long as this is limited to a warning, and limited to the Daily Mail, then it makes perfect sense as a logical extension of the previous decision. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 00:06, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
- Support. A warning seems like it will save us trouble down the road without much risk of causing problems. Anyone adding a new reference to the Mail ought to be made aware of the decision regarding it. --Aquillion (talk) 06:20, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
- Support per Aquillion's comment above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs)
- Support. It's time we implemented a decision we have already made. Bishonen | talk 18:03, 4 March 2018 (UTC).
- Support I think this is like the third time -- we already have the consensus. [1]Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:06, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Edit filters should be used against sites that have been blacklisted. While DM is not to be used for factual aspects, it is not blacklisted - it can and should be used if the newspaper is the center of a controversy. I see a slippery slope where a source we've claimed non-reliable is on a filter, we would start including more, and that will make the situation worse. --Masem (t) 01:53, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Conditional support so long as this is a warning and not a 'blacklisting', per logic of Aquillion above. Pincrete (talk) 16:42, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Is a non-Reliable-Source reliable about who was his informant?
On Tikun Olam blog page someone added a claim by the blogger about a source of his. The blog on its own isn’t considered RS but can it be in this case since it is about the blogger?
The person who is supposed to be the informant past away about two years ago do no BLP issue here. But he was a public figure and I would assume th reliability of the source is important. Change
Kigelim (talk) 03:14, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
- If the author of a blog writes about his previously anonymous source, of course he's qualified to describe the source. That's axiomatic. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:27, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
- It would have to be attributed to Silverstein, but Tikun Olam is RS for Silverstein saying something. Note you may have BLP issues regarding naming the informant (from a non-RS - so saying Silverstein named Y) - separate from RSness. See WP:SELFPUB].Icewhiz (talk) 21:22, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
- BLP isn’t an issue bc the guy is dead. Self published says “it does not involve claims about third parties;”. This claim includes another individual.
- in addition and possibly more important, no one have picked on the story. It is a big deal a person at his position will reveal secrets to a foreign blogger. This isn’t just a cute fact rather he would have been tried for breaking Israeli law.
- In short, is Silverstein RS to claim an individual broke the law? Kigelim (talk) 03:32, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
- Silverstein didn't claim the source broke the law. That's your interpretation. He wrote that "he offered me scores of scoops on major stories which could not be published in Israel due to judicial gag orders or military censorship" (emphasis added). Since Silverstein is American and his blog is published in the U.S., I don't see a claim anywhere—except in your post—that the source violated the law.
- And why do you have such a bug up your ass about Silverstein anyway? Are you an unrequited lover? A stalker? You've been on this jihad for almost three years now. Isn't it time to find a more productive way to spend your time? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:15, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
- WP:BDP actually still possibly applies. However, per WP:SELFPUB(2)
it does not involve claims about third parties
and possibly SELFPUB(4)there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity
as well - this should be excluded as long as it is sourced to Silverstein himself (whose blog is generally not a WP:RS - though I admit I read it regularly (in between of the crud, some 10%-15% of pieces actually have some information. Middleeast Eye is not a RS either, and in any event they have statedThe views expressed in this article belong to the author and do not necessarily reflect the editorial policy of Middle East Eye.
making their RSness moot).Icewhiz (talk) 08:48, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
- That's what I wrote. In any event, you haven't explained your obsession with Silverstein. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:59, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
Did or didn’t his informant break Israeli law by telling Silverstein the information? Absolutely! For your question, Silverstein uses whatever source to blackwash Israel. He even relays on comments on his blog as sources. The fact no one caught on this scoop of his means either he isn’t taken seriously or WP:BLP prevents me of completing the sentence. Kigelim (talk) 16:37, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
- Oh, so now you're an attorney as well as a stalker? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:47, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- Is that your defense line? Do you have any doubt revealing state secrets are breaking the law? Since you are such a Silverstein fan you know he thinks he doesn’t visit Israel bc he is afraid to be arrested and that when he isn’t even subject to Israeli law while publishing any piece of supposed intel. Kigelim (talk) 18:30, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- I don't need a defense. You're the one asserting that a law has been broken. I'm simply asking if you're a lawyer. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:32, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- FWIW (this discussion is getting off topic - SELFPUB applies anyway) - discussing the subject of an Israeli judicial gag order privately, as opposed to publishing it via public means would not, in and of itself, breach the gag order. This is much of what Silverstein publishes (in terms of scopes). Discussing matters under military censorship would potentially be different - depending on the particulars. Whether such a defense (which would entail claiming Silverstein's subsequent publication was unrelated to the aforementiined discussion) would hold up in court... Is a diferent matter.Icewhiz (talk) 05:11, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- I don't need a defense. You're the one asserting that a law has been broken. I'm simply asking if you're a lawyer. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:32, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- Is that your defense line? Do you have any doubt revealing state secrets are breaking the law? Since you are such a Silverstein fan you know he thinks he doesn’t visit Israel bc he is afraid to be arrested and that when he isn’t even subject to Israeli law while publishing any piece of supposed intel. Kigelim (talk) 18:30, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Jeremy Bates New York Jets Quarterbacks Coach
The page for Jeremy Bates incorrectly identifies him as the Offensive Coordinator for the New York Jets. He is listed on the official New York Jets website as the quarterbacks coach, a position he has held for about a year. On January 19, 2018 a piece was published in the New York Daily news that contained speculation that Bates would be named Offensive Coordinator for the Jets but no announcement has been forthcoming and no change has been made to the official website. There has been no verification of any kind by Bates or anyone connected with the Jets that he has been promoted.
Xianning (work on the Minor Administrative Divisions in China)
I have done about seventy of these for Chinese minor geography articles. This is the way I've been doing it recently. Seeking your thoughts and opinions. Please help me get as close into line with the standards of English Wikipedia as possible so I can do these in the right way.
(I'm still looking forward to any input you may have!Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:49, 10 March 2018 (UTC))
Summary: Source 1 xianning.gov is directly from the local government- this type of website often includes typos on rarely used characters. I feel certain that it is a good source, but am I citing it correctly? Source 2 xzqh.org is from a secondary source which I feel is a reliable source on the administrative divisions of China- it is often used by other people in English wikipedia and on Baidu Baike. It often includes typos on rarely used characters. Is it really acceptable? The third source stats.gov.cn is the central government's lists of names and statistical numbers for administrative divisions; it often includes typos. 4 is another secondary source, less reliable but sometimes helpful. Having all four cited at once seems to me to me the best way to make sure that wikipedia is consulting all the relatively authoritative sources. There are definitely other sources, but I don't know about them and I hope you will tell me about them if they are out there. In essence, is there anything obviously out of line with my methodology, citations, or the statements I create based on looking at these sources?
1 Source: 4 sources[1][2][3][4]
2 Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xianning
3 Content: Xianning has 1 district, 4 counties, 1 county-level city and 1 other area.
District:
- Xian'an District (咸安区) (location of Xianning's main urban area, i.e. the place that low-resolution maps would label as "Xianning")
Counties:
- Tongshan County (通山县)
- Chongyang County (崇阳县)
- Tongcheng County (通城县)
- Jiayu County (嘉鱼县)
City:
- Chibi City (赤壁市)
Other Area:
- Xianning Advanced Technology Industry Area (咸宁高新技术产业园区)
References
- ^ "咸宁市行政区划" (in Simplified Chinese). 咸宁新闻网. Retrieved 3 March 2018.
咸宁市辖嘉鱼县、通城县、崇阳县、通山县、赤壁市、咸安区四县一市一区和一个高新技术产业园区,共设12个乡、51个镇、6个办事处,下辖1049个村民委员会、10145个村民小组。
- ^ "咸宁市历史沿革" (in Simplified Chinese). 行政区划网站www.xzqh.org. 7 December 2011. Retrieved 3 March 2018.
2000年第五次全国人口普查,咸宁市总人口2700678人。其中:咸安区567598人,嘉鱼县358646人,通城县427867人,崇阳县456792人,通山县378849人,赤壁市510926人。 2004年末,咸宁市总面积10022平方千米,总人口约276.9万人。辖1个市辖区、4个县,代管1个县级市。共有6个街道、51个镇、12个乡,131个居委会、1034个村委会。
- ^ "2016年统计用区划代码和城乡划分代码:咸宁市" (in Simplified Chinese). 中华人民共和国国家统计局 National Bureau of Statistics of the People's Republic of China. 2016. Retrieved 3 March 2018.
统计用区划代码 名称 421201000000 市辖区 421202000000 咸安区 421221000000 嘉鱼县 421222000000 通城县 421223000000 崇阳县 421224000000 通山县 421281000000 赤壁市
- ^ "湖北咸宁市" (in Simplified Chinese). 博雅地名网. Retrieved 3 March 2018.
vgmdb.net as a source for video game music information
I'm trying add citations for Donkey Kong Country#Audio, but I've had difficulty finding reliable sources to support its information. The difficulty, in my opinion, is because the soundtrack was published in 1994 and many of the physical sources which have documented information about it are now gone, and it's from a time before there was a large internet presence of online media documenting this kind of stuff. While I have a good idea that the two pieces of information that I'm trying to verify are correct: That the official name for the track is "DK Island Swing", not "DK Swing" as the Square Enix article names it, and that the album has "hidden" bonus tracks, it seems that the only source of information are online databases.
The most promising source that I can find is video game music database. While the site does rely on community-generated content, it requires registration, and edits are not submitted until they are reviewed by trusted editors. The about page is somewhat reasuring, though the only people connected with are online pseudonyms. While this is not the preferable source for this information, the information seems to be important information when discussing the soundtrack in the article, and I can find no better sources.
Basically, is this an acceptable use case, and if not, what should be done with the content?
Thanks, --E to the Pi times i (talk) 22:09, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how you could grant an exception to WP:USERG for this, and I say this as an active member of VGMdb. Also, edits there aren't pre-reviewed and accepted by trusted editors like you claimed, it works similarly to Wikipedia in that they are published and go live immediately and only get reverted by others if deemed false or whatever. However, I would consider using their hosted scans of liner notes as a reliable source, as you could verify the info there and simply cite the OST itself in articles. I'd also consider cross-posting this to the WP:VG/RS talk page for opinions from dedicated MOS:VG editors. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 02:19, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Dissident93, could you clarify what you mean by "using their hosted scans of liner notes as a reliable source"; I'm not sure what you mean by liner notes. And whoops, I didn't realize that they didn't review in that manner, that was my impression from a brief edit there. --E to the Pi times i (talk) 03:39, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Edit: (03:46, 5 March 2018 (UTC)) Do you mean like the back cover of DK Jamz? That works, except for verifying the hidden tracks. It would be nice if I could cite the album itself for the hidden tracks, since I know the tracks are there (I own the album), but that seems like circular sourcing.
- Yes, all the albums and its packaging (such as liner notes) that get scanned, uploaded, and then hosted by VGMdb. As for the hidden tracks, well it has to be sourced from somewhere else; if you can't find it other than the VGMdb tracklist, then it can't really be verified (on Wikipedia) and thus shouldn't be cited in articles. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 03:51, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- You can definitely use the album itself as a source. It is a published piece of media.--Alexandra IDVtalk 17:29, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- (Yes, where applicable, think of it the same as a Plot section in an article about a film or novel -- they do not require any secondary sourcing at all because I can describe the plot myself after watching the film or reading the novel.) MPS1992 (talk) 19:26, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Alexandra IDV and MPS1992: Ah, but after investigating policy more thoroughly, I have figured out what bothers me about using the album as a source in this context: In order to come to the conclusion that the track list is different from the album's tracks, I have to have the album, the liner notes, and perform an analysis by comparing the two. Per WP:NOR, I'm not allowed to do this. It's annoying, but it's an important policy.
skirts the edge of WP:I-SAW-IT (bear with me, I'm stretching it). It's easy enough for me to say I've seen that the album has more tracks than are listed on the liner notes, but it's not as simple as song lyrics or book quotation. In order to come to the It's preferable to have a secondary source which describes it, certainly, especially since there's a citation-needed template there, indicating someone thought that statement was citation necessary (probably beyond the album itself as a source.) That said, I'm going to end up using it as a temporary supporting source there until I can bolster it with more sources.--E to the Pi times i (talk) (contribs) 02:53, 6 March 2018 (UTC) (Edit 03:19, 6 March 2018 (UTC))
- @Alexandra IDV and MPS1992: Ah, but after investigating policy more thoroughly, I have figured out what bothers me about using the album as a source in this context: In order to come to the conclusion that the track list is different from the album's tracks, I have to have the album, the liner notes, and perform an analysis by comparing the two. Per WP:NOR, I'm not allowed to do this. It's annoying, but it's an important policy.
- (Yes, where applicable, think of it the same as a Plot section in an article about a film or novel -- they do not require any secondary sourcing at all because I can describe the plot myself after watching the film or reading the novel.) MPS1992 (talk) 19:26, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- You can definitely use the album itself as a source. It is a published piece of media.--Alexandra IDVtalk 17:29, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, all the albums and its packaging (such as liner notes) that get scanned, uploaded, and then hosted by VGMdb. As for the hidden tracks, well it has to be sourced from somewhere else; if you can't find it other than the VGMdb tracklist, then it can't really be verified (on Wikipedia) and thus shouldn't be cited in articles. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 03:51, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
David Ogden Stiers, recently dead (yesterday) BLP, reliability of sources re coming out.
TO AVOID FORUM SHOPPING AND DISCUSSION SPLITTING, PLEASE COMMENT AT THE ARTICLE OR BLP NOTICEBOARD MASH star Stiers died on March 4th. In 2009 the "gossip boy" wordpress blog published an "interview" with Stiers in which "Stiers" came out as gay. This contradicts an earlier (RS) interview in which he said he was not gay. The gossip boy interview has subsequently been picked up and cited in many sources including ABC and the NYT obit for Stiers (NYT cites ABC, ABC cites gossip boy). There has been long standing but contentious consensus to exclude this info based on the WP:GRAPEVINE argument, but with Stiers death, the issue has been reopened. The discussion could use additional eyes/voices from experienced editors Talk:David_Ogden_Stiers#gay_summary
TheBlaze show Dana etc. w rgd Dana Loesch
- source mentions on noticeboard:
-link
-link - partisan source: TheBlaze
- article (blp): Dana Loesch
- disputed content:
--22:13, 5 March 2018 (UTC)"...[Loesch's] questioning the conservative political credentials of commentators who were supporting Donald J. Trump at that juncture."["'Who The Hell Is This Chick?': Dana Loesch Goes Off On Trump Supporter Kayleigh McEnany". May 9, 2016. Retrieved March 5, 2018.
- Reliable - The source, albeit wp:BIASED, seems reliable in the context e.g. sourcing commentators's notable positions--whether S. E. Cupp's, Loesch's, the formerly CNN [then TheBlaze] and now PBS's Amy Holmes's, Tomi Lahren's (now of Fox Nation)--taken during their respective employment stints at TheBlaze. Cf. wp:Selfpub.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 22:13, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable. TheBlaze isn't unreliable due to its bias. It's unreliable due to the absence of a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. It's a conservative commentary site run by Glenn Beck. It has no journalism chops. Case in point, the author of the source article you're pointing to had no prior journalism experience aside from being an opinion editor for the Liberty University school newspaper. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:36, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- @DrFleischman and Hodgdon's secret garden: Despite its unreliability, there are more than 400 Wikipedia articles that cite The Blaze. It would be worthwhile to review the accuracy of these articles, and then find more-reputable sources if necessary. Jarble (talk) 22:47, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- That would indeed be a worthwhile endeavor but it's not the purpose of this discussion. We're focused specifically on Dana Loesch here. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:02, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- cmt - Presumably Scott Baker (journalist) was providing that inside-hire editorial oversight.[2]--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 23:06, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Ah yes, Scott Baker, who prior to working for TheBlaze was a co-founder of Breitbart, and before that was a local news anchor. Who has zero editorial or real journalist experience. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 01:22, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- And Andrew Breitbart had prev. co-founded the HuffPo. wp:IRS: All three partisan opinion/current events sites may be reliable, accdg to contexts. (Salon. National Review. Dailycaller. Humanevents. Mediaite. MediaMatters. Townhall. Redstate. ...) Necessary as as it is to give special care when history renders some among such media platforms WP:Questionable sources, such care is manifested when an opinion is properly attributed to the individual offering it, who was on staff as a commentator whatever the venue in question, as Loesch was in 2016 with TheBlaze.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 02:54, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- Ah yes, Scott Baker, who prior to working for TheBlaze was a co-founder of Breitbart, and before that was a local news anchor. Who has zero editorial or real journalist experience. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 01:22, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- @DrFleischman and Hodgdon's secret garden: Despite its unreliability, there are more than 400 Wikipedia articles that cite The Blaze. It would be worthwhile to review the accuracy of these articles, and then find more-reputable sources if necessary. Jarble (talk) 22:47, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable - As per DrFleischman, there's no demonstrated reputation for fact-checking and accuracy here. Clearly one can find Glenn Beck's attributed opinions on TheBlaze, but it's unclear as to whether one can find high-quality factual news coverage. As with many things from partisan news sources, if the only place you can find something is TheBlaze, one must question whether it merits inclusion in Wikipedia. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:06, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- Opinions attributed to not only Beck but to Loesch and other co-hosts of TheBlaze are found at the TheBlaze source because she'd hosted--along with a radio show syndicated by America Radio--the show Dana on TheBlaze TV 2014-2017. As to the question of wp:weight you broach: Dana aired likewise her 2016 primaries-season contra-Trump sentiments on her radio show, in interviews with Megyn Kelly on Fox News, and in columns in National Review opinion pieces, too.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 07:55, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable per the previous points raised. Also because of those points, it calls into question whether the comment being discussed is notable enough to even be included in an article; if there's no other source besides TheBlaze, that, to me, means that it isn't significant, and including it could be WP:UNDUE. Rockypedia (talk) 19:50, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- The comment immediately above points out four additional sources.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 00:47, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- Not reliable for claims of fact. I'm not going to trot out some of the (still extant) false claims of fact on that site. I would simply advise anyone who is curious to give it a read through and see for themselves. It may not be as bad as The Onion, but it's certainly no better than the Daily Mail or Breitbart. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:04, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- The point is Breitbart et al. are reliable per WP guidelines withn contexts where opinions sourced from them are to be attributed to their opinion contributors or editor in chief... e.g., w rgd Breitbart, in blp's for Breitbart former contributors/editor Milo Yiannopoulos, Ben Shapiro, Steve Bannon or w rgd The Final Call for attributed opinions in the blp for Louis Farrakhan.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 18:21, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- This discussion is expressly about the reliability of TheBlaze. If you want to discuss Breitbart or other sources, you're free to do so but the appropriate place is probably Talk:Dana Loesch. And you have made your point. Please review WP:BLUDGEON before commenting again. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:08, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- Repeated myself cos people state the opposite of what I'd just written.
- DrF, are you addressing the people in this thread "shunning" by association-with-Breitbart?
Or, just addressing me, for my pointing out, (as you yourself imply) that referencing Breitbart is a nonarguement here?--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:36, 7 March 2018 (UTC)You wrote: "Ah yes, Scott Baker, who prior to working for TheBlaze was a co-founder of Breitbart, and before that was a local news anchor. [...]"
- Neither. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:56, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- The point is Breitbart et al. are reliable per WP guidelines withn contexts where opinions sourced from them are to be attributed to their opinion contributors or editor in chief... e.g., w rgd Breitbart, in blp's for Breitbart former contributors/editor Milo Yiannopoulos, Ben Shapiro, Steve Bannon or w rgd The Final Call for attributed opinions in the blp for Louis Farrakhan.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 18:21, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- Generally not reliable for facts, but reliable for opinions of the publication. But in this particular case, where it's supported by the video, it seems to be sufficiently reliable. That's why I said "generally". However, if there are other sources, I'm not sure why we need this one DGG ( talk ) 19:13, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Spam at Metaphysics
A WP:SPA who has a WP:COI insists against WP:SPAM and WP:SOAP to insert his own work, which is apparently WP:SPS, at Metaphysics.
The text he entered is "* Ramakrishna Surathu (2018) You are God, Independently Published, ISBN 1977025641". Please chime in. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:23, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- This isn't spam. User Tgeorgescu haven't read the book, he / she is removing my edits based on prejudice. The book deals with "being" and "existence" which are the main subjects of Metaphysics. This book is a proof that metaphysics isn't just a theory. The author of the book gave a technique called "witness" which in itself is a proof that Metaphysics is a science in itself. Being is a subject, another being is no less than an object for the being in question. This can't be proved with any external object other than subjectivity which by it's very nature is a witness. If this book is not Metaphysics then what is it about? Did you read the book? If you haven't then your decisions are more prejudice than sensible.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rakrsu13 (talk • contribs)
- WP:NOTBLOG: we have no interest for your book, take it to your own blog or website. Tgeorgescu (talk) 10:36, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not your (Tgeorgescu) property.
- It's not just your book: in general we have no use for WP:SPS works. Tgeorgescu (talk) 11:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- OK, I have a few questions before I weigh in here. First, Rakrsul13... did you write this book, or have anything to do with publishing it?Blueboar (talk) 11:30, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Self published doesn't mean the information published is worthless, after all if it's selling on amazon. The whole book is centred at the "Being" and "Existence". Perhaps the author is new, perhaps the author has truly known him/her self. What the author says in the book is exactly what is popularised as Metaphysics. The author in the book gave a technique called "wintess", perhaps the reader of the book may benefit by knowing that metaphysics (concepts of Being / Existence) is not just a dull theory (without any practical applicability) and it can be practically proven as a result of execution of the method him/herself.
- Please answer the question that was asked... Did YOU write this book, or have anything to do with publishing it? Blueboar (talk) 13:13, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- Ah... I see from his user page that he was indeed the author. Now blocked and mention of his book removed from the article... end of discussion. Blueboar (talk) 14:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
www.bcbusiness.ca/
- Hi, ALL! :) Dear people, what do you think about this sourse: https://www.bcbusiness.ca/ ?
Thanks beforehand, Lidiia Kondratieva (talk) 21:01, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- Depends on where and how it is being used. We need context... Which article, and which statement in that article? Blueboar (talk) 04:03, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
DBase
Note: This was originally posted here on March 23 but received no response and became archived seven days later. I am positing it once again at a different time of day in hope of it receiving attention. Please remove this post if my re-adding it is disallowed or otherwise inappropriate. Thank you.
Source: DBase.tube
Article: List of most-subscribed YouTube channels
Content: § By country and territory
The "most-subscribed by country" table is currently based on the lists compiled by VidStatsX, but the website has been inaccessible for about three weeks. If the table is to remain, another reliable source must be found from which relevant, regularly updated statistics can be derived. I believe the best candidate is the website DBase, which provides lists of most-subscribed YouTube channels for around 200 countries and territories (examples of some of the lists that would be used: [3] [4] [5] [6]), but I am struggling to determine if it is reliable. The lists are most likely automatically generated, but does that preclude them from being dependable?. LifeofTau 22:29, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- They are certainly automatically generated, and it looks to be on an hourly basis. I'm a bit unsure how they do country specific sorting, but if VidStatsX could do it accurately, I have no doubt they can too. Go ahead and use that while VidStatX is down (perhaps indefinitely). Unless there's a relevant policy which I do not know about, it should be fine. Since the normal numbers check in with the numbers reported on YouTube, I see no reason to be skeptical. --E to the Pi times i (talk) (contribs) 04:27, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Celeb Mix and Direct Lyrics
I'm currently reviewing the GA nomination for Nirvana (Inna album) and I'd like to ask for some more opinions regarding two sources: CelebMix and DirectLyrics. As I've pointed out to the nominee, CelebMix has no indication of editorial oversight and is largely written by volunteers: [7]. DirectLyrics reliability was brought up here in 2016, with two editors questioning whether it was reliable in general: see Archive 216. I'd consider both sources to be unreliable in general.
As the nominee has pointed out, however, the authors of the articles he has sourced are a cut above the rest from both sites. The CelebMix author cited, Jonathan Currinn, states he is a graduate of Staffordshire University and has written for several other minor publications [8]. The DirectLyrics author cited, Kevin Apaza, is the manager of the website and is a University of Roehampton graduate: [9]
Neither of the journalists are used to say anything that is controversial, libelous or overly-promotional. I have no reason to doubt their statements are accurate. But would you consider either of these journalists notable enough for general information added to a music-related article? I don't want to make a ruling on accepting or rejecting the sources without hearing from at least a couple people here. Thanks. Freikorp (talk) 01:39, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Freikorp: consider linking diffs to the disagreement and the type of content where you or either parties have disagreed. Excelse (talk) 08:57, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Excelse: What?????? There are no diffs! The sources are in the article. I'm reviewing the GA nomination. I want opinions on whether they satisfy WP:RS or not. Freikorp (talk) 09:07, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I decided to search the dispute myself, and I have found the link.[10] I think CelebMix can be included mostly due to the credentials of the author. Also see 9 Lives (Alexandra Stan song), another GA where CelebMix has been included. Directlyrics should not be used for those statements for a GA. The website can be used only for lyrics. Excelse (talk) 09:26, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Excelse: What?????? There are no diffs! The sources are in the article. I'm reviewing the GA nomination. I want opinions on whether they satisfy WP:RS or not. Freikorp (talk) 09:07, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Freikorp: consider linking diffs to the disagreement and the type of content where you or either parties have disagreed. Excelse (talk) 08:57, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Gino Gambino Bullet Club
We are currently in a heated discussion right now over the reliable sources added to Bullet Club member Gino Gambino and this user claims BLP and keeps reverting it so I was wondering if these independent sources are reliable [11]
[12] — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheKinkdomMan (talk • contribs)
- Can you link to the diffs of the agreement? The last revert that I checked[13] is not really pointing to the sources that you have linked here. Excelse (talk) 08:54, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Here’s a source that another user have provided when added Gambino [14]
Reliability of Interview with youknowigotsoul.com?
I am currently working on a draft for the Natina Reed article, and ran across this interview here with youknowigotsoul.com. I was wondering if this would be reliable enough for me to use in my draft? It is one of the few more extended interviews that I could find with Reed. Aoba47 (talk) 07:22, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- "Started in late 2009, YouKnowIGotSoul was started as a dream by a music fan who had a serious passion for r&b music", per the footer of this website.[15] While such websites are not enough for confirming notability, you can use this source for sourcing the statements from interview. Official website of RCA Records has also mentioned interview from You Know I Got Soul in one of it's page.[16] Excelse (talk) 08:48, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Germaine Greer vs Rory O'Connor
At Yugambeh people, two editors are removing Germaine Greer White Beech: The Rainforest Years A&C Black 2014 and the material sourced in it, while restoring Rory O’Connor, The Kombumerri:Aboriginal people of the Gold Coast, published by R. O'Connor, Brisbane 1997
- Greer is an accomplished archival historian (Shakespeare's Wife (2007), who bought land in Yugambeh territory and over several years examined the history of the region. It can be searched in Google Books, the sources she used can be verified. It is in short a piece of regional history written by an Australian scholar of world-wide repute.
- Rory O’Connor is a man of Yugambeh origins, who wrote and self-published his book on the people. We know the book exists, but we have no way of accessing it, or verifying its contents and assertions.
The editors who want to remove Greer and put in O'Connor,User:BlackfullaLinguist and The Drover's Wife claim Greer is an 'idiot' unqualified to write on 'indigenous issues'. BlackfullaLinguist is also claiming that his ethnicity and that of O'Connor trumps any outside scholarship (there may well be also a WP:COI problem here, esp. since he tells us that he is editing Wikipedia on this topic in order to 'get the truth out about my people.')
I have no idea what the 'truth' is. All I know is that experts have remarked on considerable confusion in our sources, and, like Greer who cites them, mention these problems. People of Yugambeh descent are conflicted about many claims various descendants have made. Can third parties please tell me why O'Connor's inaccessible self-published book is RS, while Greer's is, I am told, RS only in so far as that might be 'rat shit'.Nishidani (talk) 13:23, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I have no opinion on the other book, but Greers work, from reading a page from your link, does not exactly strike me as an ethnography, nor is it described as such. Greer is called a "towering polemicist, Shakespearean academic, ex-pornographer and author of The Female Eunuch" but nothing in there suggests she's a qualified ethnographer, an expert on the Yugambeh people or a reliable source in this context. Kleuske (talk) 13:31, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- Hardly any of that page is written from sources made by a qualified ethnographer, 19 sources fail that test. 7 sources are written by qualified linguists or historians. If the rule was no ethnographic article can be written by anyone who is not an ethnographer, almost 98% of these articles couldn't be written. I am not citing controversial opinions by Greer: I am citing her technical synopsis of the existing scholarship on a single issue (which I have checked against several of the sources she uses: it is uncontroversial. Except for one detail she cites to one of the most accomplished linguistic experts, Margaret Sharpe, her remarks are very close to those made by the historian Longhurst 1980 p.18, per the talk page) Nishidani (talk) 13:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- Then cite the linguist(s)/historian(s) Greer cites. Get it from the horses mouth instead of a second hand summary by an activist writer with no history in the field. If you insist on citing Greer, an attribution would be necessary. Greer isn't exactly known for her evenhanded, levelheaded approach to her subject. If she were, she wouldn't be a "towering polemicist" as The Guardian calls her. Kleuske (talk) 16:15, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- Hardly any of that page is written from sources made by a qualified ethnographer, 19 sources fail that test. 7 sources are written by qualified linguists or historians. If the rule was no ethnographic article can be written by anyone who is not an ethnographer, almost 98% of these articles couldn't be written. I am not citing controversial opinions by Greer: I am citing her technical synopsis of the existing scholarship on a single issue (which I have checked against several of the sources she uses: it is uncontroversial. Except for one detail she cites to one of the most accomplished linguistic experts, Margaret Sharpe, her remarks are very close to those made by the historian Longhurst 1980 p.18, per the talk page) Nishidani (talk) 13:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- Self-published and inaccessible would make the O'Connor book almost completely unuseable regardless of Greer. Fails WP:V and WP:RS. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:23, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- Tend to agree, Greer is not an expert in this field, But then self published books are generally also not RS unless by an expert, is Rory O’Connoran acknowledged expert (is he indeed self published)? If this is the case he cannot be used and her opinions must not be stated as fact but her opinions.Slatersteven (talk) 16:25, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- Greer has two sides, the dryasdust cautious scholar, who works Elizabethan era parish archives, and everyone recognizes that virtue in works like those on Shakespeare's wife. I.e. she is accustomed to the hard slog of source detection and evaluation, and when those gifts are present she is reliable. It's wrong to suggest that, because she has a history of polemics on vital contemporary issues, that in fossicking out the details of her adopted landscape in Queensland, she won't or can't separate the passionate feelings of her love affair with the rainforest from the evaluation of facts or the relevant scholarly literature. I found that the some of the remarks she was challenged over were similar to those of a recognized local historian - they both consulted the same source and came to the same summary of that source. On one important detail she adds a crucial element not available as far as I can see, in other technical sources, and stipulates she got it from Margaret Sharpe, who lives just an hour or so drive away from her own home. Why on earth would she fake evidence from Sharpe knowing the latter, as an interested scholar, would read her account? I think that attribution of Sharpe's view to Greer is fair, and gets over the impasse (until I can access the otherwise obscure source by Sharpe she appears to have used.Nishidani (talk) 17:38, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting anything about Greers abilities. I am suggesting the article would be better served if you cited the original authors Greer cites. Besides, as good as her work on Shakespeare's wife is, this book is not a scholarly study and shouldn't be treated as such. Kleuske (talk) 18:37, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I am not treating it as a scholarly study. I have included every source except one which I cannot yet find of the authors cited by Greer. It is a simple faute de mieux provisory solution, like much else on Wikipedia. My normal practice is to cite nothing but authorities or authoritative sources, but there is a 5% margin where important details can only be obtained, provisorily by good, but not perfect, secondary works as here. 99% of wiki articles don't adopt that high bar. Nishidani (talk) 19:58, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- You're treating Greer, herself, as a reliable source on this subject. Greer is an incendiary shock jock, has no background whatsoever in indigenous history, and even her attempts at history are heavily polemic. It is absurd to treat her as more of an authority on an indigenous people in Queensland than the local historian who runs a museum about his people and - unlike Greer - is actually recognised as an authority on them in other reliable sources at a national level. There is no reason why you and BlackfullaLinguist, as two people who've read all of the subject material, can't hash out a compromise about how to work with the Greer source and other related issues, but I object in the strongest terms to you trying to strongarm him because you passionately like a book which to a neutral observer cannot be considered an WP:RS. You've made absolutely no attempt to do so beyond a bullying justification on the talk page and then unsuccessfully trying to whip up a crowd here instead of actually making any attempt whatsoever to get to the bottom of the dispute with BlackfullaLinguist. The Drover's Wife (talk) 21:09, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I've read a dozen of Greer's works. incendiary shock jock is silly. Vigorous polemic by the intelligently informed lies at the heart of Western thought and scholarship. By that token, Karl Popper nis an incendiary shockjock for calling Plato a fascist, and Hegel a windbag. I do not treat her as an authority on indigenous history. And I have no passionate attachment to that book of hers. Far too chatty, and for my ends, unfocused. I have, over 600 articles, included lots of material by people without her rigorous training in archival history. Rory O'Connor, unfortunately, cannot be used, unlike Ysola Best, his aunt, because he is self-published. And secondly, he appears to make (see my edit now at the talk page) an elementary confusion between Yugambeh and Kombumerri of the very kind that has vexed the editing of this page, which when I first looked at it, seemed to consider these were interchangeable (which is precisely Greer's observation and objection). I've been working towards a compromise with BL from the start. In talking of strongarm tactics, it is better to look at the history here. When Margaret Sharpe began teaching Yugambeh in Queensland, she was confronted by the Kombumerri Corporation's insistence that they throw out the far better attested other dialects, and base the course on the Nerang river dialect they favoured, which only has 500 words (and which according to some linguistics may not be Yugambeh). It's that kind of sub-ethnic nationalism I am very sensitive to, its failure to accept that the fucked up archives that contain the residues of great cultures decimated by whites must be given close impartial attention, with no regard to the politics of knowledge, other than being wary of their intrusiveness. Land claims and defending one's dignity are one thing: seeing the past without fear or favour another.Nishidani (talk) 21:28, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- Margaret attempted to teach Bundjalung, as at the time the Linguistic concensus was that there was just a single Bundjalung language and Yugambeh was simply a dialect with barely any information. It was the insistence of the Kombumerri corp that she research the northern dialects which lead to her later works throughout the late 80s and 90s. Margaret is also a personal friend of mine, whom I correspond with quite frequently, I even attended an astronomy talk of hers where she used my family's kangaroo lore as part of her evidence. Margaret also visits us often, where she either stays with Rory or his mother Pat O'Connor (An Elder who met the Queen last year as part of the Commonwealth games). Also, if you want copies of her work to read, I have pdf versions I can email you, also any source you claim is 'unaccessible' I 100% have a copy of. I have copies of everyone'swork, Tindale, Crowley, Geyteenbeeks, Sharpe, Cunningham, science of man, curr, bray, etc, if it has anything to do with my people I can assure you I ROMTIC'ed it all. (ROMTIC is the Retutn of Material to Traditional Indigenous Communities, any book in AIATSIS tagged with Yugambeh E17, I have requested. Linguistics, anthropology, musicology, newspaper articles, etc. BlackfullaLinguist (talk) 02:00, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Excellent. We can I think work together fruitfully on the talk page, where I'll take up your extremely generous offer to get access to those sources. There's a lot of work to be done, and with your expertise and my knowledge of the wiki rulebook, I reckon we should be able to make the Yugambeh page one of the outstanding aboriginal pages on Wikipedia.Nishidani (talk) 15:40, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Margaret attempted to teach Bundjalung, as at the time the Linguistic concensus was that there was just a single Bundjalung language and Yugambeh was simply a dialect with barely any information. It was the insistence of the Kombumerri corp that she research the northern dialects which lead to her later works throughout the late 80s and 90s. Margaret is also a personal friend of mine, whom I correspond with quite frequently, I even attended an astronomy talk of hers where she used my family's kangaroo lore as part of her evidence. Margaret also visits us often, where she either stays with Rory or his mother Pat O'Connor (An Elder who met the Queen last year as part of the Commonwealth games). Also, if you want copies of her work to read, I have pdf versions I can email you, also any source you claim is 'unaccessible' I 100% have a copy of. I have copies of everyone'swork, Tindale, Crowley, Geyteenbeeks, Sharpe, Cunningham, science of man, curr, bray, etc, if it has anything to do with my people I can assure you I ROMTIC'ed it all. (ROMTIC is the Retutn of Material to Traditional Indigenous Communities, any book in AIATSIS tagged with Yugambeh E17, I have requested. Linguistics, anthropology, musicology, newspaper articles, etc. BlackfullaLinguist (talk) 02:00, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- O'Connor can be used - because he's a recognised authority on the subject, and the guidelines regarding self-published sources explicitly recognise that as making for a usable source. You claim it is an "elementary confusion", BlackfullaLinguist on the talk page claims in some detail that you're confused (which you've so far refused to engage with). The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:17, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- Recognized by whom for what? Google finds pages like this which show that O'Connor was a journalist and is Director of Yugambeh Museum, and strives to keep Yugambeh heritage alive. That indicates a passionate interest but does not support Wikipedia's notion of a reliable source. As Only in death noted above, self-published and inaccessible mean that a source fails WP:V and WP:RS. Greer has been purposefully controversial, but describing her as an idiot is ridiculous given her PhD and long list of published works. At any rate, the Greer vs. O'Connor point is a red herring. The question for this noticeboard should be "is source X suitable verification for assertion Y?" Johnuniq (talk) 01:01, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Did you actually check that it was "inaccessible" before making that claim? His book is available in 28 libraries in four states and the ACT. I'm at the other end of the continent and I can access his work any time I need. O'Connor is an expert in the subject matter who is treated as such in reliable sources, and so is an acceptable source within Wikipedia's self-publishing guidelines. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:49, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- By inaccessible I meant not independently verifiable being undigitalised. Of course, as I said elsewhere, when these inaccessible works can be read by editors, what they do is transcribe the contested passage for other editors, so that the verification processs is in order. We've done this many times.
- Look, all outside editors here agree O'Connor fails WP:RS. Numerous sources I would cite for Palestinian articles don't get past RS, as defined, and I know that. I read them and, if some information is invaluable, I work my guts out to find a source with that detail - sometimes this takes years. There is nothing personal about this at all. The fundamental rule wikipedians have to have drummed into their heads is that the ambition of the project to become the world's default source for reliable information on anything can only be pursued if we, as editors, guarantee that we have exhaustively verified the information given from the best reliable sources. In this case, we try to see where Best and O'Connor got that information. I've done work on several Aboriginal pages re dolphins, and naturally want to chase this claim down. I generally avoid editing the subjects I know thoroughly because the temptation to use my personal knowledge has to be resisted. It's hard, I know, but it is an iron-hard rule here. Nishidani (talk) 15:40, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Did you actually check that it was "inaccessible" before making that claim? His book is available in 28 libraries in four states and the ACT. I'm at the other end of the continent and I can access his work any time I need. O'Connor is an expert in the subject matter who is treated as such in reliable sources, and so is an acceptable source within Wikipedia's self-publishing guidelines. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:49, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Recognized by whom for what? Google finds pages like this which show that O'Connor was a journalist and is Director of Yugambeh Museum, and strives to keep Yugambeh heritage alive. That indicates a passionate interest but does not support Wikipedia's notion of a reliable source. As Only in death noted above, self-published and inaccessible mean that a source fails WP:V and WP:RS. Greer has been purposefully controversial, but describing her as an idiot is ridiculous given her PhD and long list of published works. At any rate, the Greer vs. O'Connor point is a red herring. The question for this noticeboard should be "is source X suitable verification for assertion Y?" Johnuniq (talk) 01:01, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- I've read a dozen of Greer's works. incendiary shock jock is silly. Vigorous polemic by the intelligently informed lies at the heart of Western thought and scholarship. By that token, Karl Popper nis an incendiary shockjock for calling Plato a fascist, and Hegel a windbag. I do not treat her as an authority on indigenous history. And I have no passionate attachment to that book of hers. Far too chatty, and for my ends, unfocused. I have, over 600 articles, included lots of material by people without her rigorous training in archival history. Rory O'Connor, unfortunately, cannot be used, unlike Ysola Best, his aunt, because he is self-published. And secondly, he appears to make (see my edit now at the talk page) an elementary confusion between Yugambeh and Kombumerri of the very kind that has vexed the editing of this page, which when I first looked at it, seemed to consider these were interchangeable (which is precisely Greer's observation and objection). I've been working towards a compromise with BL from the start. In talking of strongarm tactics, it is better to look at the history here. When Margaret Sharpe began teaching Yugambeh in Queensland, she was confronted by the Kombumerri Corporation's insistence that they throw out the far better attested other dialects, and base the course on the Nerang river dialect they favoured, which only has 500 words (and which according to some linguistics may not be Yugambeh). It's that kind of sub-ethnic nationalism I am very sensitive to, its failure to accept that the fucked up archives that contain the residues of great cultures decimated by whites must be given close impartial attention, with no regard to the politics of knowledge, other than being wary of their intrusiveness. Land claims and defending one's dignity are one thing: seeing the past without fear or favour another.Nishidani (talk) 21:28, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- You're treating Greer, herself, as a reliable source on this subject. Greer is an incendiary shock jock, has no background whatsoever in indigenous history, and even her attempts at history are heavily polemic. It is absurd to treat her as more of an authority on an indigenous people in Queensland than the local historian who runs a museum about his people and - unlike Greer - is actually recognised as an authority on them in other reliable sources at a national level. There is no reason why you and BlackfullaLinguist, as two people who've read all of the subject material, can't hash out a compromise about how to work with the Greer source and other related issues, but I object in the strongest terms to you trying to strongarm him because you passionately like a book which to a neutral observer cannot be considered an WP:RS. You've made absolutely no attempt to do so beyond a bullying justification on the talk page and then unsuccessfully trying to whip up a crowd here instead of actually making any attempt whatsoever to get to the bottom of the dispute with BlackfullaLinguist. The Drover's Wife (talk) 21:09, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I am not treating it as a scholarly study. I have included every source except one which I cannot yet find of the authors cited by Greer. It is a simple faute de mieux provisory solution, like much else on Wikipedia. My normal practice is to cite nothing but authorities or authoritative sources, but there is a 5% margin where important details can only be obtained, provisorily by good, but not perfect, secondary works as here. 99% of wiki articles don't adopt that high bar. Nishidani (talk) 19:58, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting anything about Greers abilities. I am suggesting the article would be better served if you cited the original authors Greer cites. Besides, as good as her work on Shakespeare's wife is, this book is not a scholarly study and shouldn't be treated as such. Kleuske (talk) 18:37, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- Greer has two sides, the dryasdust cautious scholar, who works Elizabethan era parish archives, and everyone recognizes that virtue in works like those on Shakespeare's wife. I.e. she is accustomed to the hard slog of source detection and evaluation, and when those gifts are present she is reliable. It's wrong to suggest that, because she has a history of polemics on vital contemporary issues, that in fossicking out the details of her adopted landscape in Queensland, she won't or can't separate the passionate feelings of her love affair with the rainforest from the evaluation of facts or the relevant scholarly literature. I found that the some of the remarks she was challenged over were similar to those of a recognized local historian - they both consulted the same source and came to the same summary of that source. On one important detail she adds a crucial element not available as far as I can see, in other technical sources, and stipulates she got it from Margaret Sharpe, who lives just an hour or so drive away from her own home. Why on earth would she fake evidence from Sharpe knowing the latter, as an interested scholar, would read her account? I think that attribution of Sharpe's view to Greer is fair, and gets over the impasse (until I can access the otherwise obscure source by Sharpe she appears to have used.Nishidani (talk) 17:38, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
David Ogden Stiers sexuality RFC
There is an RFC which may be of interest to the members of this wikiproject Talk:David_Ogden_Stiers#RFC_regarding_the_sexuality_of_David_Ogden_Stiers ResultingConstant (talk) 21:52, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
If a reliable source relies solely on a Wordpress blog which is unreliable ...
At what point is the fact that a reliable source quotes a Wordpress blog for a statement of fact give an imprimatur to the claim made in that blog? This is currently the gist of a dispute at Talk:David Ogden Stiers where prior discussions held the defunct "Gossip-boy" blog was not reliable, but which has now been quoted in reliable sources, sometimes with no attribution. (I rather figure that eliding attribution on a lengthy and exact quote does not make it into a "different source", by the way. What is does is show blatant plagiarism by the "reliable sources" which is now common). (The notice of the RfC above appears to give a notice sans information about the actual issues involved) Thanks. Collect (talk) 17:46, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Here is a reliable source that some are trying to say is not reliable anymore. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-ogden-stiers-p6kx0dn9k So is this a RS? ContentEditman (talk) 17:53, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Per Reliable Sources in WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, when dozens of RS have editorial over-site, check legal issues, issue retractions whenever warranted, and have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy -- everyone from the New York Times, to the Times of London, to ABC, to NBC, etc., the only way to argue this bit is not RS supported is Wikipedia editor WP:OR which is not allowed. We must strictly follow WP:NPOV, which follows these multiple RS in presentation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:39, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- OR is only prohibited in article content, not in discussions among editors. We absolutely should be engaging in original research to determine whether sources are reliable or not, whether to use source or wiki voice, how to ensure our articles are NPOV, etc.
- That being said, RS works on trust: We trust those source we consider to be reliable, even when they say something we suspect. So if an RS quotes a blog, then we can see that as the RS endorsing the claims in the blog as true, which is -for our purposes here- functionally the same as if the RS made the claim itself.
- So while we should never use OR as an excuse to exclude reliably sourced content, it's perfectly fine for an editor to dig into it to see whether or not it really is reliably sourced. They just have to keep in mind that our standards can't be overridden by their personal preference. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:54, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- I would say that if the major sources (NYT, WaPo etc) are explicitly quoting from the blog then the statements are not reliable. If, on the other hand, they are making a direct statement in their 'voice' then we should be obliges to consider it reliable. WP:RS requires 'a reputation for fact checking and accuracy' and therefore, unless clearly demonstrated otherwise, we assume that they checked their facts and base what we say on the strength of the re-publisher not the original blog source. Whether his sexuality needs to be addressed in the article is another question entirely and it does not seem to have been a large enough component of his public life to merit mention. We would not be saying '...and he was straight'. So why say '... and he was gay'? Jbh Talk 23:28, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Let me take that last question, even though it is as you note totally off-topic - just look carefully at your question, it is, how to put this delicately, entirely personal bias - your question does not care what the sources wrote about his life - it begins with a personal proposition, 'I would not say this, so I would not write that' - which is entirely backwards, we first read the sources that wrote about his life and then we write what they wrote about (whether we approve or not) - that is NPOV. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:43, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)} Huh? What I said is that if his sexuality was covered so sparsely that the only 'original reporting' on it is a blog then it is not significant enough to put in his biography no more than we would comment on the sexuality of a straight person whose orientation was mentioned once in a blog. In other words it looks like this whole discussion is looking for an excuse to say he was gay when there is no evidence presented that his sexuality, whatever it was, was a significant part of his life since the only reference to it before his death was on a blog post. Jbh Talk 00:58, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- Multiple prominent reliable sources have reported on his life and yes this matter of him coming out in the context of his life - writing as sources do, it is therefore something to reflect in writing about his life (whether we personally disapprove or not). Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:13, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Then why are we discussing a blog if there is sourced commentary during his life?! Jbh Talk 01:19, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- It appears some disapprove of what multiple sources wrote about his life. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:21, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Then why are we discussing a blog if there is sourced commentary during his life?! Jbh Talk 01:19, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- Multiple prominent reliable sources have reported on his life and yes this matter of him coming out in the context of his life - writing as sources do, it is therefore something to reflect in writing about his life (whether we personally disapprove or not). Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:13, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)} Huh? What I said is that if his sexuality was covered so sparsely that the only 'original reporting' on it is a blog then it is not significant enough to put in his biography no more than we would comment on the sexuality of a straight person whose orientation was mentioned once in a blog. In other words it looks like this whole discussion is looking for an excuse to say he was gay when there is no evidence presented that his sexuality, whatever it was, was a significant part of his life since the only reference to it before his death was on a blog post. Jbh Talk 00:58, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- Let me take that last question, even though it is as you note totally off-topic - just look carefully at your question, it is, how to put this delicately, entirely personal bias - your question does not care what the sources wrote about his life - it begins with a personal proposition, 'I would not say this, so I would not write that' - which is entirely backwards, we first read the sources that wrote about his life and then we write what they wrote about (whether we approve or not) - that is NPOV. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:43, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- We don't need to assume that an RS ,even a high quality one with the rigors for fact-checking, is necessarily 100% right. In the Stiers situations, where we know that the bulk of all other RSes based this assessment on a bad blog and mentioned that blogs, and other RSes published near the same time with the same info did not include that citation, that it's likely coming from the same bad blog and we should use the same caution and not assume as fact. --Masem (t) 00:04, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- No one is proposing to assume anything, people are just wanting to attribute what multiple public reliable sources wrote about the topic, which is what NPOV requires. Frankly, it's bizarre, that some think they are doing anything that makes any serious or useful sense, when dozens of reliable sources talk about his life - people who research his life will know this stuff. And it's even more of a rabbit hole because we will be linking to these RS articles in our article - because no one is going to ban these sources from our article - it is quite ludicrous. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:46, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Because we consider these sources reliable the rebuttable presumption is that they did, indeed, check the facts. The tell-tail is whether they are attributing the quote to the blog - in which case they might not have been able to confirm it elsewhere or if they stated it as an unattributed fact. If the later than, because of the reputation for…, we can rightly assume that they checked their facts. Jbh Talk 00:58, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- I would say that if the major sources (NYT, WaPo etc) are explicitly quoting from the blog then the statements are not reliable. If, on the other hand, they are making a direct statement in their 'voice' then we should be obliges to consider it reliable. WP:RS requires 'a reputation for fact checking and accuracy' and therefore, unless clearly demonstrated otherwise, we assume that they checked their facts and base what we say on the strength of the re-publisher not the original blog source. Whether his sexuality needs to be addressed in the article is another question entirely and it does not seem to have been a large enough component of his public life to merit mention. We would not be saying '...and he was straight'. So why say '... and he was gay'? Jbh Talk 23:28, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Wait... is this source being used to try to to "out" this BLP? If so, that's a whole different can of worms (and my answer is to that is "Hell no"). Oh, and the "reputation for fact checking" comes into play when the RS decides to quote the other source. The RS has a reputation for fact checking. Hence, we can assume they fact checked this quote before reporting on it. Unless they give the quote and then argue with it, or give it as an example of things said by one side of a debate, then the RSes reputation applies to the quote, just as it would apply to anything written by the author. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:26, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- The RS that editors want to use are the two Times on both sides of the Atlantic, the WaPo, ABC, NBC, etc. And, I can go into BLP more but it's not the topic of this board - to begin with, the person is dead. (So, we already know what the RS will write about his life, because they already have). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:57, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- That's fine, I stand by my statement that the information is verifiable. But my response of "hell no" to stating his sexuality above follows my usual rule of thumb for WP:DUE claims: If it changes the narrative in some way, it's due. If it doesn't, it's not. So if knowing that this BLP was gay would change how the rest of the article reads (to a person who couldn't care less about his sexuality for its own sake), then it's acceptable to state it. Or if the claim that he was nominally straight changes how the rest of the article reads, then it's due to state his sexuality. In short, if a reader can't determine that a BLP was gay from reading the article, and it wouldn't change the tone of any other claims (such as a highly notable, long-term friendship with a person of the same gender that was not previously believed to have any romantic component, but which it later turned out to have), then adding it to the article is completely undue, especially if the person in question never came out publicly. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:18, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- In this case I believe it is a major part of his life as he had to deny he was gay in the past due to risk of losing voice work, esp on children shows. At least that was his worry and he said as much. No history of family, relationships, etc... and why he denied he was gay in the past really shows how he had to live his life and it affected his work as well. I was really surprised it was not already on his page when he passed. But I digress, this thread is mostly for is The Time, ABC, etc... reliable sources. Of which I believe they are in this case. ContentEditman (talk) 12:54, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- That's fine, I stand by my statement that the information is verifiable. But my response of "hell no" to stating his sexuality above follows my usual rule of thumb for WP:DUE claims: If it changes the narrative in some way, it's due. If it doesn't, it's not. So if knowing that this BLP was gay would change how the rest of the article reads (to a person who couldn't care less about his sexuality for its own sake), then it's acceptable to state it. Or if the claim that he was nominally straight changes how the rest of the article reads, then it's due to state his sexuality. In short, if a reader can't determine that a BLP was gay from reading the article, and it wouldn't change the tone of any other claims (such as a highly notable, long-term friendship with a person of the same gender that was not previously believed to have any romantic component, but which it later turned out to have), then adding it to the article is completely undue, especially if the person in question never came out publicly. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:18, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- The RS that editors want to use are the two Times on both sides of the Atlantic, the WaPo, ABC, NBC, etc. And, I can go into BLP more but it's not the topic of this board - to begin with, the person is dead. (So, we already know what the RS will write about his life, because they already have). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:57, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Exclusive Video but only on "generally unreliable" DailyMail Site
While attempting to add statements by Seth Rich's parents to the "Murder of Seth Rich" Talk page for eventual inclusion in the article, I was informed by an editor that "The Daily Mail is not an acceptable source on Wikipedia." Some research revealed this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&oldid=764880426#Daily_Mail_RfC
So I am now inquiring about an exception, since the Daily Mail has an exclusive video interview with Seth Rich's father in which he states (on camera):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3741754/Father-murdered-DNC-staffer-reveals-son-join-Hillary-Clinton-presidential-campaign-punching-hole-ugly-rumor-Wikileaks-source.html (the video is embedded in the page, after some photos, and has a title "Seth Rich's father reveals son was joining Hillary campaign)
In the video, Seth Rich's father can be seen and simultaneously heard stating, "He had just been asked to join the Clinton campaign, four days before he was murdered." (and then later) "He had just found out that they wanted him."
So, it appears to me that the truthfulness of the video is indisputable, the video is not available from another source, and the father of Seth Rich describes the job offer and the murder in the same sentence.
This inquiry about an exception to the "generally unreliable" vote at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&oldid=764880426#Daily_Mail_RfC is separate from any ongoing discussion to possibly include the quote in the "Murder of Seth Rich" article. So far, documentation of the job offer there has been suppressed. At the very least, it should be added as a reference.StreetSign (talk) 22:38, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- The reason most editors at that page have given you for exclusion is not just that the DM is unreliable, but also that this is WP:UNDUE information that promotes a conspiracy theory. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:48, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- But one of the reasons given was that DM is "unreliable", and that statement influenced editors. My question here is if a published video of Seth Rich's father stating "He had just been asked to join the Clinton campaign, four days before he was murdered." (and then later) "He had just found out that they wanted him." can be a reliable source. So, can it be a reliable source? StreetSign (talk) 23:06, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter. No answer you get here will change whether or not that claim is due in the article. And the Daily Mail has a reputation for photoshopping images. If they could have altered that video (which they almost certainly could have done, though how well is another question), then the fact that no-one else reported on it speaks volumes about its reliability. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:31, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- But one of the reasons given was that DM is "unreliable", and that statement influenced editors. My question here is if a published video of Seth Rich's father stating "He had just been asked to join the Clinton campaign, four days before he was murdered." (and then later) "He had just found out that they wanted him." can be a reliable source. So, can it be a reliable source? StreetSign (talk) 23:06, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
What do you mean "no one else reported it"? That is deliberately deceptive. I have already reported that CNN and WashingtonPost have reported that Seth Rich's father said that Seth Rich told him that he received a job offer from the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign. Many other sources have published it.
"On the day he was murdered, Seth was excited about a new job he had been offered on Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign." and continued "To those who sincerely want to get to the bottom of Seth’s murder, we don’t hold this against you."
and on CNN:
"Before Rich died, he had been offered a new job on Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign"
reference: https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/24/us/seth-rich-dnc-wikileaks-theories/index.html
Do you believe that all those sources were altered too? StreetSign (talk) 02:20, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- If it's so significant that it should be added to the article, other sources will comment on it. If nobody else cares enough about this Daily Mail interview to talk about it, then there's no point putting it in the article, reliable or not. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 01:44, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- Accusing other editors of a "deliberate deception" is a personal attack and is prohibited by policy. I might also point out that you, yourself admitted that it was an exclusive video. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:54, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Speaking only to the context of whether or not the source can be used and not to content issues of undue weight, the source in question is Seth Rich's father, not the Daily Mail. It is a primary source to a recorded statement made by the father. As such, all due caution must be made when using the source and any interpretation of the source must be extremely limited. It's my opinion that its reasonably sources the statement "In an interview with the Daily Mail, Seth Rich's father said his son was..." and then the verbatim quote. LargelyRecyclable (talk) 04:49, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- Am I missing something? We shouldn't use the DM, we should be using the Washington Post and CNN. @StreetSign:, if you knew that those other sources existed before you posted here, why are you arguing we should use the DM? From what you've said, it appears that you are here not to get the text added to an article, but to get the DM used as a source. Doug Weller talk 18:50, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- I have no opinion on who OP should or shouldn't cite; I'm not involved in the content in the article and have no desire to be. The original question was whether or not they can use the Daily Mail's video as a source and it's my opinion that they can, in a limited way, as explained above. LargelyRecyclable (talk) 19:57, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
@Doug Weller I have no interest in DM at all. And I have no interest in conspiracy theories. I did notice that the Seth Rich article did not contain any mention of the job offer from the Hillary Clinton campaign, even though his father spoke about it on more than one occasion with reporters, and considered it significant in some way. I posted on the Seth Rich Talk page, and was immediately accused of supporting conspiracy theories. Someone eventually even deleted my posts and those of everyone who responded. At no time did I change the actual Seth Rich article. I was informed that "The Daily Mail is not an acceptable source on Wikipedia." Some research revealed this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&oldid=764880426#Daily_Mail_RfC
And after reading it I concluded that an exception was a possibility. Once again, I don't care about DM at all. I did not even know DM existed. The video itself is clearly reliable, contrary to the claim by MjolnirPants above. The video, as pointed out in another reply above, a Primary source, so it should not be excluded.
I do understand that editors do not want to promote a conspiracy theory. Neither do I. But it does not seem right to suppress the job offer on that basis. There are many examples on WP, notably the Lee Oswald article as one example, where some facts are seized upon by conspiracy theorists, but they belong in the article anyway, because they are facts that contribute to understanding the background of the story. I don't think that we want to engage in anything equivalent to editing Yezhov out of the photo with Stalin. Seth Rich's father made these statements. They have been reported. They have been deliberately excluded from the Seth Rich article, using a variety of weak excuses. The authentic nature of the video is indisputable, the video is not available from another source, the father of Seth Rich describes the job offer and the murder in the same sentence, and it is independently supported by similar statements made by the father to WashingtonPost. "He had just been asked to join the Clinton campaign, four days before he was murdered." (and then later in the video) "He had just found out that they wanted him."StreetSign (talk) 20:25, 11 March 2018 (UTC)