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October 29
would usage-5
Hi ! I am trying to understand would.
I have the information where to use would.but I do not have explanation and examples.so I need your help.
My doudt is on “I wish you would-----------------“ sentence structure.
I wish you would ----------------“is possibly a request form.Here there is no feeling that the person addressed will refuse to perform the request ,but there is a feeling that this person is annoying or disappointing the speaker in some way.”
Can you explain with some examples? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phanihup (talk • contribs) 02:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. "I wish you wouldn't x" or "I wish you would stop xing" expresses implied annoyance on the part of the wisher, and "I wish you would x" is somewhat presumptuous and could be rude to a stranger or a superior. You should probably only say it when you are on good terms or have a very obvious good justification for it, as when the person knows they themselves are doing something rude that they should stop. μηδείς (talk) 03:10, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Example:
- "I wish you would move your hand".
- "How's that ?"
- "No, I meant remove it from my body, not move it around !" StuRat (talk) 07:58, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Is this paragraph an example of purple passage?
In line with the past question, I would like to know whether being too purple is the problem of the writing.
Dear friend, perhaps we should talk as I can smell the burning passion I as well have. We both have soaring desires to defeat the communist insurgents and leave them with nothing. However it is our misfortune that neither of us can do it alone. But with our talents fused together, there shall not be a hindrance preventing our victory." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.205.104.88 (talk) 05:37, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, too purple, and if I may say so, it doesn't seem to have been drafted by a native speaker. It rather looks like the writer is trying too hard. It also hardly makes sense to start with "perhaps we should talk" then launch into stuff about "burning passion". Like, you have this electrifying energy, so perhaps you should talk. IBE (talk) 07:19, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. I gave you advice on this already here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Help_please.21_I_need_your_remarks_to_this_short_paragraph. μηδείς (talk) 15:28, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Your link doesn't work. (It's not bracketed, and the wiki parser thinks the trailing dot is not part of the url.) The correct link is Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Help_please.21_I_need_your_remarks_to_this_short_paragraph., soon Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 27#Help_please.21_I_need_your_remarks_to_this_short_paragraph. (Incidentally, if you want to link to a section in a page, you can edit it to add an {{anchor}} with a simple name if you prefer, and then link to that anchor.) – b_jonas 22:16, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Stay safe. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 02:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. I am very surprised I didn't even lose power except for a few flickers--but the rest of my family are without power. No major damage or personal injury to anyone I know, but of course NYC is devastated from the surge. This image is shocking, and this one in Queens is not a sight one's seen anytime recently. μηδείς (talk) 15:52, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Language attitudes in Islam
I know clearly that there is a consensus in mainstream Islam about non-Arabic languages. Simply speaking it is forbidden to pray aloud in non-Arabic and any translations of Quran are treated as corrupted interpretations. Alims only allow fresh converts to say silently prayer in their native language only until one has learned it in Arabic (though it seems this won't take long – namaz usually contains of about 200 words, which can be simply parroted). I googled and read enough to understand their arguments (though I strongly disagree with them). But I do not intend to speak about it.
Only I want to know what are attitudes to non-Arabic prayer, Quran translations and to the religious use of of non-Arabic languages generally in Reformist/Liberal and Quranic Islam. Unfortunately Mr. Google hasn't helped.
P.S. It would be helpful if somebody in the future creates an article "Language policies in religions".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:24, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, and this is similar to how the Catholic Church, in the middle ages, insisted that Bibles be written in Latin and services held in Latin. This is particularly odd, as most of the books later included in the Bible were written in other languages, such as Aramaic. StuRat (talk) 16:45, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's not quite like that...the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek (there are a few words of Aramaic in it but no book was written entirely in Aramaic), and then translated into various other languages including Latin. It wasn't necessarily forbidden to translate the Latin Bible into vernacular languages, but vernaculars weren't (or weren't believed to be) sophisticated enough to translate something so profound. There were plenty of authorized translations, but unauthorized vernacular translations were almost always associated with heretical groups (people who thought the church was conspiring to keep everyone stupid, as you seem to believe). See Bible translations in the Middle Ages. For the Qur'an, it's a little different because theologically, the Qur'an is supposed to be "uncreated". It's not simply something that God recited to Muhammad, it's more like the text has eternally existed and was then revealed. It was always in Arabic, so if the text is eternal and uncreated in Arabic, it cannot be properly translated into another language. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:32, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- By the way we also have a Quran translations article, and History of the Qur'an talks a bit about it. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:02, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
This is especially curious that the Quran was written down not during the life of Muhammad from him directly, but later from the people who claimed that they had learnt the Quran by heart. Nobody definitely knows if they really have learnt it rightly throughout, word by word, letter by letter. Of course all this is a matter of blind faith not reason.
Nevertheless there was a current which supported the createdness of the Quran, unfortunately it was ousted. The same was also with Abu Hanifah, who prayed in Persian, though even his disciples declined the possibility to pray in a native language. Also Atatürk should be mentioned who was blamed for Turkish prayers.
But even if the Quran is eternal it does not necessary imply that it was always in Arabic. In this case the Arabic language in the form of the 7th century Quraysh dialect was also eternal. It sounds very weird! I don't get it why Islamic theologians (mostly non-Arabs themselves!) are so stubborn on this linguistic Arabic chauvinism. It is very different from Christianity where you can pray in any language and the Bible translations are quite equal to the original.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- It is also claimed that there have never been any variations in the manuscripts of the Qur'an, because the text itself is eternal and miraculous and humans can't even accidentally make a mistake in copying it. That's also partially why destroying a copy of the Qur'an causes so many problems. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I seem to recall that it says in the Qu'ran itself "We have given you this Qu'ran in Arabic so that it may be plainly understood." Plenty there for both sides to argue from - is it the Arabic-ness or the understandability that is paramount? AlexTiefling (talk) 10:59, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I suppose Allah (or the Quran itself, I don't get who was the first if they are both eternal) is doing C.O. in this passage and no more. Implying that "written in Arabic" = "forbidden to translate and pray" are fantasies of chauvinistic Islamic scholars. I'm sure even Muhammad would be surprised.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:15, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I guess one of the reasons is the Qur'an contains a lot of great poetry which, if translated, is really not all that appealing or convincing, because it loses its charm. - Lindert (talk) 11:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunately more than 98% of humans cannot appreciate its poetic value. In any case poesy has nothing to do with faith and with opportunity for people to pray with their own language.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's certainly true, yet that is probably the main argument the Qur'an gives for its divine origin. It challenges any nay-sayers to 'then produce a surah like it' (2:23, 10:38 etc.) and as you say most people on earth have no way of considering or examining this challenge, because they don't know the language. - Lindert (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunately more than 98% of humans cannot appreciate its poetic value. In any case poesy has nothing to do with faith and with opportunity for people to pray with their own language.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I guess one of the reasons is the Qur'an contains a lot of great poetry which, if translated, is really not all that appealing or convincing, because it loses its charm. - Lindert (talk) 11:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I suppose Allah (or the Quran itself, I don't get who was the first if they are both eternal) is doing C.O. in this passage and no more. Implying that "written in Arabic" = "forbidden to translate and pray" are fantasies of chauvinistic Islamic scholars. I'm sure even Muhammad would be surprised.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:15, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
After all it's a pity that nobody has answered the main question. :( --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:13, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
re article proparoxytone
Hi everybody !
The article quotes Joyce's Ulysses : "Stephan Dedalus in James Joyce's Ulysses (novel) uses the term to comment on the time being eleven o'clock, with eleven being a proparoxytone: "Why striking eleven? Proparoxyton. Moment before the next, Lessing says." [1]" Isn't Eleven stressed on the penultimate ? (e'leven). So doesn't that make eleven a paroxytone rather than a proparoxytone? Does that mean Joyce was wrong?
Or did eleven use to have an additional syllable (e'levenØ or e'leØven) that was dropped at some point making it a former paroxytone? Or does the final N count as a mora ?
Any suggestion is welcome, thank you.
--Anne97432 (talk) 09:09, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
No idea on Joyce, but eleven literally means "one left". See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=eleven μηδείς (talk) 15:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think Stephen, or indeed Joyce, are thinking of pronunciation, they are thinking of time, "Moment before next", he says. Stephen is drunk and being his overly intellectual self, figuratively using the word rather too loosely which he used correctly when churchly sober in Portrait.... Stephen is wrong, Joyce is right to show his wrong. HTH. meltBanana 04:23, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
ID tag, WWII Shanghai ghetto
This item, from the Ghetto Fighters' House artifacts archive, is a metal ID tag pinned on as a brooch, worn by residents of the Shanghai Ghetto, 1943 - 1945 in Japanese-occupied China. What is this character that appears on the red background? -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm...I am not good at recognizing calligraphy letter so I could be wrong but it looks like the character "通". For the meaning behind the character, I haven't a clue as I am not really knowledgeable about the history surrounding the Shanghai ghetto. Maybe someone else here could give you more information. SassyLilNugget (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree about the identification of the character. Wikitionary says that its basic meaning is "pass through, common, communicate"; but as a noun in Japanese "authority, expert, connoisseur". I wonder if it means "authorised", or perhaps some sort of pass? --ColinFine (talk) 13:47, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is looking plausible. Would it have a similar meaning in Chinese, or different? I don't have information on whether the gatekeepers were locals or occupation forces, but in Polish ghettos, for example, German was the prevailing language of administration, with Polish and/or Yiddish added in directives aimed at the population. -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:30, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- I would say that both Chinese and Japanese would recognize the meaning behind this 通 character as it pretty much has the same meanings in both languages. It is one of the few Chinese characters that the meaning did not get completely changed or lost when entering the Japanese writing system. SassyLilNugget (talk) 14:51, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is looking plausible. Would it have a similar meaning in Chinese, or different? I don't have information on whether the gatekeepers were locals or occupation forces, but in Polish ghettos, for example, German was the prevailing language of administration, with Polish and/or Yiddish added in directives aimed at the population. -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:30, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- It is probably more in line of being able to "pass through" as a description on the Ghetto Fighters' House website indicates that this ID brooch was checked at the entrance point into the ghetto. SassyLilNugget (talk) 14:36, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Spanish phrases in retail transactions
In the US, with customers speaking the Mexican dialect of Spanish, how would a retail clerk say in Spanish the following:a)"Here is your change." b)"Here is your receipt." (I have understood receipt to be receta, but someone said it is "recebo." c)"Would you like debit or credit?" d)"Sign here, please." e) "Would you like a bag?" Thanks. Edison (talk) 14:38, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Answering without proper diacritics:
a)"Here is your change." (Aqui esta) ...su cambio
b)"Here is your receipt." (I have understood receipt to be receta, but someone said it is "recebo." ...su recibo (receta is prescription)
c)"Would you like debit or credit?" (Quiere pagar por) debito o creidito?
d)"Sign here, please." Firme aqui, por favor
e) "Would you like a bag? Quiere fundita? or bolsa? Bolsa is literally bag, but you hear fundita, which is slang, in NYC. It might not be understood everywhere.
- Per the discussion two below and its rarity on the internet, it looks like fundita will be seen as a Dominican expression, so I would go with bolsa de papel o plastico or bolsita if it is not one of the large ones. Is this for homework, or do you work in a store with Mexican clients? μηδείς (talk) 20:10, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks! Edison (talk) 22:17, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Epatiana a Teuruarii
Can someone help me write the Tahitian pronunciation for Epatiana a Teuruarii (ʻĒpātiana a Teuruariʻi) base on the table of sounds on Tahitian language?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:52, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- The table of sounds in that article does it for you. There's a one-to-one correspondence between letters and sounds, so for each letter you can just copy the corresponding sound from the table. Note that if a vowel has a macron (overbar) it is pronounced long and is denoted by the second of the two given pronunciations for that vowel in the table; otherwise the first given pronunciation applies. Also, remember that the apostrophe is a separate letter, the last one in the table. Duoduoduo (talk) 17:45, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Etymology of fundita as Spanish for Plastic Bag
Can anybody find any source defining and especially giving the etymology of the word fundita used in Spanish in NYC to refer to a disposable plastic shopping bag? This has been surprisingly hard to find, which leads me to think it may be local or slang. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 19:16, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think it must be a diminutive of funda, "Cubierta o bolsa de cuero, paño, lienzo u otro material con que se envuelve algo para conservarlo y resguardarlo", which comes from the Latin funda, "sling, moneybag". Lesgles (talk) 19:59, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. I did actually manage to find it used in a blog here by a woman from Seville. Funny thing is that you get images of hair bows if you google it. Wiktionary gives funda as dominican slang for shopping bag--apparently its more an archaism than slang if it comes from Latin. μηδείς (talk) 20:05, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- About that blog, the author is using "fundita" to refer to a sheath / sleeve where she stores her shopping bags after usage, not to refer to the bags themselves — Frankie (talk) 20:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I assumed she meant a littler bag. How do you know this? (Not that I doubt you at all here.) Personal familiarity with Castillian usage? μηδείς (talk) 20:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm a native Spanish speaker, but I'm not from Spain and I'm not particularly familiar with Castillian usage. Still, what she's saying is very straightforward: "I have gotten myself five bags, at 0.95 euros, very resistant and larger than the plastic ones. With those five I've managed to carry almost everything for the week. Afterwards you can fold them and keep them comfortably in a mini sheath that comes included" :) — Frankie (talk) 20:42, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- So what is your opinion of the New York/Dominican usage? This bag, about the size to carry a gallon of milk (4 liters) is what is called a fundita. μηδείς (talk) 20:50, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've never heard of it before, but it is normal for local usages to develop, no matter how arbitrary or "incorrect" they might seem to speakers from other regions. Looking at the ref from Wiktionary it has three hits for "funda" [1] but only the second one is about what we're discussing, and no hits for "fundita". The book itself is about Dominican slang, which could be taken as an indication that the term is not common to other Spanish speaking countries. This article does use "fundita" to mean a simple bag, being used to wrap guava fruits. What I'm really curious is how that could've gotten into Spanish slang in NYC, and whether it somehow originates from the Dominican usage — Frankie (talk) 21:09, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I had never heard the term until I moved into a Dominican neighbourhood, where it was used almost exclusively, although they had had no problem with my saying "no quiero bolsa" at the bodega. μηδείς (talk) 21:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Makes sense: "bolsa" being the standard word for the object, they would have to be very picky to have a problem with it. Do you know if "fundita" is used by other communities (Cuban, Puerto Rican, etc.)? Otherwise, I think we're looking at a strictly contained phenomenon — Frankie (talk) 21:38, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- The large majority of Spanish speakers in the portions of Upper Manhattan and the Bronx I have lived in are Dominicans who tell outsiders that they are Puerto Rican, por la migra. (Younger Puerto Ricans mostly speak English!) My experience before my mid twenties had been with Puerto Ricans and Mexicans and i had only ever heard bolsa. Fundita is about all I've heard for the last 15-20 years in Mott Haven, Inwood, and University Heights, and this has been almost puro dominicano. μηδείς (talk) 21:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Makes sense: "bolsa" being the standard word for the object, they would have to be very picky to have a problem with it. Do you know if "fundita" is used by other communities (Cuban, Puerto Rican, etc.)? Otherwise, I think we're looking at a strictly contained phenomenon — Frankie (talk) 21:38, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I had never heard the term until I moved into a Dominican neighbourhood, where it was used almost exclusively, although they had had no problem with my saying "no quiero bolsa" at the bodega. μηδείς (talk) 21:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've never heard of it before, but it is normal for local usages to develop, no matter how arbitrary or "incorrect" they might seem to speakers from other regions. Looking at the ref from Wiktionary it has three hits for "funda" [1] but only the second one is about what we're discussing, and no hits for "fundita". The book itself is about Dominican slang, which could be taken as an indication that the term is not common to other Spanish speaking countries. This article does use "fundita" to mean a simple bag, being used to wrap guava fruits. What I'm really curious is how that could've gotten into Spanish slang in NYC, and whether it somehow originates from the Dominican usage — Frankie (talk) 21:09, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- So what is your opinion of the New York/Dominican usage? This bag, about the size to carry a gallon of milk (4 liters) is what is called a fundita. μηδείς (talk) 20:50, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm a native Spanish speaker, but I'm not from Spain and I'm not particularly familiar with Castillian usage. Still, what she's saying is very straightforward: "I have gotten myself five bags, at 0.95 euros, very resistant and larger than the plastic ones. With those five I've managed to carry almost everything for the week. Afterwards you can fold them and keep them comfortably in a mini sheath that comes included" :) — Frankie (talk) 20:42, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I assumed she meant a littler bag. How do you know this? (Not that I doubt you at all here.) Personal familiarity with Castillian usage? μηδείς (talk) 20:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- About that blog, the author is using "fundita" to refer to a sheath / sleeve where she stores her shopping bags after usage, not to refer to the bags themselves — Frankie (talk) 20:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. I did actually manage to find it used in a blog here by a woman from Seville. Funny thing is that you get images of hair bows if you google it. Wiktionary gives funda as dominican slang for shopping bag--apparently its more an archaism than slang if it comes from Latin. μηδείς (talk) 20:05, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean the etymology of the word, but the cultural origin of the Dominican usage (basically what I understand you had asked for in the beginning). The source above is good for the origin of the word "funda", but the connection with "bolsa" is too feeble, and I doubt that that is the reason it became a synonym in the DR. I found some posts about "bolsa" being a slang for "scrotum", so that might play some part in it. But of course I'm just speculating — Frankie (talk) 16:07, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Chinese stuff
In 北京振远护卫中心 isn't 振远 read as "Zhènyuǎn" or is it "Zhènyuàn" (which is altered due to pronunciation rules, right?)? Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 23:53, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- The third tone in yuǎn would become a second tone, yuán, before the fourth tone, hù, but only in quick speech. Not in this case, however, as it is the name of an institution, and is more likely to be pronounced clearly. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification! WhisperToMe (talk) 00:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
October 30
Are there computers that exist in West Africa with a keyboard with any African languages?
Are there computers that exist in West Africa with a keyboard with any African languages? Neptunekh94 (talk) 01:42, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- There are hardware keyboards by Nigerian Konyin and by Soligsoft.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Do note that the vast majority of computer users in W. Africa use English and French as their interface language. Senegal might be somewhat different, were Wollof is used in newspapers, etc.. But experiments like N'ko is virtually unheard of on the ground. --Soman (talk) 15:18, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Why 12:00 noon is 12 p.m.?
--Scoooooorpio(留言) 02:52, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, technically, it should be 12 m., since the "m" in "p.m." and "a.m." stands for "meridian": i.e., noon. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Then how to say 24:00. --Scoooooorpio(留言) 04:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- See 12-hour clock#Confusion at noon and midnight. Lesgles (talk) 03:48, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- First, it's ultimately arbitrary. If you are going to split up the day in two halves it has to be the one or the other. Second, absolute noon is a point moment of no duration. The time 12:00 lasts on the clock for one minute after that instantaneous point of no duration. Time mnoves through and past noon. There is never any length of time over which it is noon. 12:00 is not noon. It is the minute that begins at noon. 12:00:00 is not noon. It is the second that begins at noon. So PM does make perfect sense. μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- The problem stems from starting with 1 rather than the more natural 0. If we started with 0, then midnight would be simultaneously 0 AM of the day that's starting or 12 PM of the day that's ending, and noon would be simultaneously 0 PM and 12 AM. Then things would make sense.
- But because we still use the unfortunate one-based convention, we have the conundrum that 12:01 is clearly post meridiem, after noon, so we call it PM. Then it's hard to explain why we would write 12:00 AM and then a minute later 12:01 PM, so when times are given to the minute, 12:00 PM for noon seems to work more smoothly.
- On the other hand, when times are given just to the hour, 12 AM for noon makes more sense, because it's an hour after 11 AM.
- So the bottom line is -- never write "12 PM" or "12 AM". Never never never never never. But if someone else writes "12 PM" (the heathen), 95% plus of the time, you can count on that meaning "noon". --Trovatore (talk) 18:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- You're still going to run into the fact that there is no period of time which corresponds to noon. Minutes and seconds are periods of time; line segments of the timeline with varying length. Noon is a point. To specify noon as a point you'd have to say 00:00:00..... with the zeros stretching to infinity. But mere 00:00;00 is not a point, it is a second that lasts a second long. μηδείς (talk) 18:58, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- The repeating zeroes are assumed, just as if I say "the real number 3", it's assumed that I mean three point zero repeating. I don't see what the fact that it's a point has to do with anything. Sure, an arbitrarily short time after noon is PM, but by the same token an arbitrarily short time before noon is AM. There's no clear reason to privilege the former over the latter. --Trovatore (talk) 19:03, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, if you need to, you can certainly stipulate that by noon you mean the point of time at which 11:59:59 changes over to 12:00:00. But that still doesn't do away with the fact that the clock characters 12:00:00 signify a second that occurs beginning with and lasting for one second after noon. You could even stipulate that by "M" you mean that point in time. Bven with an arbitrarily precise clock there would never be any actual length of time during which it isn't either AM or PM. And obviously there is no sense in which 12:00:00 could be described as before noon. μηδείς (talk) 19:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's just not so that "12:00" means "the minute starting at noon". If you want to account for finite precision and make it a minute, then it would more naturally be the minute where you would round off to noon; that is, from 11:59:30 to 12:00:30. --Trovatore (talk) 19:13, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's interesting, but then you are defining noon as that minute, rather than defining noon as the point at which the sun is directly overhead. That's putting the measure above the thing being measured. The essence of clocks is to measure periods and intervals and the passage of time. Static instantaneous moments of time are an abstraction. If we stick to the OP's question, we still run into the fact that unless we want arbitrarily to say that that whole minute will be called noon, all of its seconds will either be before or after the point half-way through the sun's course. μηδείς (talk) 21:32, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, I meant "noon" as a single exact instant. I was saying that, if you intend the expression "12:00" as a one-minute interval, that's not entirely outside the range of plausibility, but in that case the range has to be from 11:59:30 to 12:00:30, not from 12:00:00 to 12:00:60. Otherwise you're saying that, if you know an event happened at 11:59:59.0000 exactly, you would report it as happening at 11:59, making an error of 59 seconds, as opposed to reporting it as happening at 12:00, making an error of just one second. That's clearly not the correct thing to do.
- Therefore even if you mean "12:00" as a one-minute interval, that interval is still both before and after the midpoint of the day. --Trovatore (talk) 22:43, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I am not exactly sure that (30 sec before to 30 sec after) is common usage. Indeed, with my last employer, if it weren't specified in the contract it wouldn't be accepted as such. You seem to fully understand my point that noon independent of clocks and taken astronomically is a point, and that at least a digital clock with an XX:XX:XX display will necessarily read some number during some span of time, depending on what its smallest display unit is. One can stipulate points, but not mark them with infinite accuracy. If noon is defined as the point at which 11:59:59 the clock transitions to 12:00:00 I think it is also clear why 12:00:00 has to be called PM if AM and PM are the only options. μηδείς (talk) 01:43, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think you're trying to infer too much from what the clock does. You know about 0.999... equals 1, right? Similarly, 11:59:59.999... is the same exact instant in time as 12:00:00.000.... --Trovatore (talk) 01:58, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, as to what is common usage: I would assert that the common usage is that, in principle though of course not in practice, 12:00 is understood as an exact instant, not an interval of one minute. --02:05, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Noon is noon, a point in time, that (or at least the word midday) would exist even if we didn't have clocks. 12:00 exists only because we have clocks. The indication 12:00 on a clock (assuming it doesn't show seconds) indicates a period that ideally starts at noon and lasts for a minute. You've got it backwards treating 12:00 as if it has some inherent meaning. It is a question of what is more concrete, and what is more abstract. Timetelling didn't start with the notion of 12pm, and then look for something in reality to correspond to that sign. Regarldess of your opinion, I trust what I am saying is clear? μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, I'm not the one guilty of overemphasizing the representation. That's actually precisely what you are doing, not me. I'm talking about time as a measured quantity, with no particular preference for errors in measurement forward or backward. You on the other hand are preferring an upper semicontinous function to a lower semicontinuous function, with no sound justification. --Trovatore (talk) 03:13, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I just want to reassure μηδείς that what she says about (digital) clocks showing periods rather than points in time makes perfect sense, while I have absolutely no idea what Trovatore is talking about. — Kpalion(talk) 12:03, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I regret that the discussion has focused on this tiny point, not very important. My main point is up higher in my very first response: 12:00 PM for noon makes sense because 12:01 PM is one minute later, but 12 AM for noon makes sense because it's one hour after 11 AM. It would be weird to go from 12:00 AM to 12:01 PM in one minute, but it is also weird to go from 11 AM to 12 PM in one hour. The problem would be resolved very naturally and satisfactorily if only we called it 0 PM instead (and it could also be 12 AM; there is no reason you can't have more than one representation for a single instant).
- Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. So the best that can be done with the current scheme is just not to use the locutions "12 PM" (or even "12:00 PM") at all, and use 24-hour time whenever possible. 24-hour time is not inherently better than 12-hour time, except that it uses 0 and therefore does not have this problem. --Trovatore (talk) 17:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Do you mean to suggest (in the non-24 hour clock system, which does do away with AM and PM altogether) using 0 for both noon and midnight? μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- OK, first of all, let me be clear that I have no actual reform project along these lines. Not because it wouldn't be an improvement, but because it's hopeless and I'm not going to waste my effort.
- But if I could wave a magic wand: Noon would be 0 PM. It would also be 12 AM. Midnight would be both 0 AM and 12 PM, but with an advantage: 12 PM Monday night would be 0 AM Tuesday morning, thereby eliminating the ambiguity of the current 12 midnight Monday, where you don't actually know whether that means the end of Monday or the beginning of Monday. --Trovatore (talk) 18:31, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, that answers it very clearly. μηδείς (talk) 19:34, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- A further advantage for this admittedly hopeless dream: PM could remain post meridiem, but AM could be reinterpreted as "after midnight". Then it's easy to remember — noon is zero hours post meridiem (after the middle of the day), and it's also twelve hours after midnight. The current ante meridiem doesn't literally work correctly even with the current scheme (for example, what we call 11 AM is not eleven hours ante meridiem, but only one hour). --Trovatore (talk) 19:50, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, that answers it very clearly. μηδείς (talk) 19:34, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Do you mean to suggest (in the non-24 hour clock system, which does do away with AM and PM altogether) using 0 for both noon and midnight? μηδείς (talk) 18:25, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I just want to reassure μηδείς that what she says about (digital) clocks showing periods rather than points in time makes perfect sense, while I have absolutely no idea what Trovatore is talking about. — Kpalion(talk) 12:03, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, I'm not the one guilty of overemphasizing the representation. That's actually precisely what you are doing, not me. I'm talking about time as a measured quantity, with no particular preference for errors in measurement forward or backward. You on the other hand are preferring an upper semicontinous function to a lower semicontinuous function, with no sound justification. --Trovatore (talk) 03:13, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Noon is noon, a point in time, that (or at least the word midday) would exist even if we didn't have clocks. 12:00 exists only because we have clocks. The indication 12:00 on a clock (assuming it doesn't show seconds) indicates a period that ideally starts at noon and lasts for a minute. You've got it backwards treating 12:00 as if it has some inherent meaning. It is a question of what is more concrete, and what is more abstract. Timetelling didn't start with the notion of 12pm, and then look for something in reality to correspond to that sign. Regarldess of your opinion, I trust what I am saying is clear? μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I am not exactly sure that (30 sec before to 30 sec after) is common usage. Indeed, with my last employer, if it weren't specified in the contract it wouldn't be accepted as such. You seem to fully understand my point that noon independent of clocks and taken astronomically is a point, and that at least a digital clock with an XX:XX:XX display will necessarily read some number during some span of time, depending on what its smallest display unit is. One can stipulate points, but not mark them with infinite accuracy. If noon is defined as the point at which 11:59:59 the clock transitions to 12:00:00 I think it is also clear why 12:00:00 has to be called PM if AM and PM are the only options. μηδείς (talk) 01:43, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's interesting, but then you are defining noon as that minute, rather than defining noon as the point at which the sun is directly overhead. That's putting the measure above the thing being measured. The essence of clocks is to measure periods and intervals and the passage of time. Static instantaneous moments of time are an abstraction. If we stick to the OP's question, we still run into the fact that unless we want arbitrarily to say that that whole minute will be called noon, all of its seconds will either be before or after the point half-way through the sun's course. μηδείς (talk) 21:32, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's just not so that "12:00" means "the minute starting at noon". If you want to account for finite precision and make it a minute, then it would more naturally be the minute where you would round off to noon; that is, from 11:59:30 to 12:00:30. --Trovatore (talk) 19:13, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, if you need to, you can certainly stipulate that by noon you mean the point of time at which 11:59:59 changes over to 12:00:00. But that still doesn't do away with the fact that the clock characters 12:00:00 signify a second that occurs beginning with and lasting for one second after noon. You could even stipulate that by "M" you mean that point in time. Bven with an arbitrarily precise clock there would never be any actual length of time during which it isn't either AM or PM. And obviously there is no sense in which 12:00:00 could be described as before noon. μηδείς (talk) 19:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- The repeating zeroes are assumed, just as if I say "the real number 3", it's assumed that I mean three point zero repeating. I don't see what the fact that it's a point has to do with anything. Sure, an arbitrarily short time after noon is PM, but by the same token an arbitrarily short time before noon is AM. There's no clear reason to privilege the former over the latter. --Trovatore (talk) 19:03, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- You're still going to run into the fact that there is no period of time which corresponds to noon. Minutes and seconds are periods of time; line segments of the timeline with varying length. Noon is a point. To specify noon as a point you'd have to say 00:00:00..... with the zeros stretching to infinity. But mere 00:00;00 is not a point, it is a second that lasts a second long. μηδείς (talk) 18:58, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- First, it's ultimately arbitrary. If you are going to split up the day in two halves it has to be the one or the other. Second, absolute noon is a point moment of no duration. The time 12:00 lasts on the clock for one minute after that instantaneous point of no duration. Time mnoves through and past noon. There is never any length of time over which it is noon. 12:00 is not noon. It is the minute that begins at noon. 12:00:00 is not noon. It is the second that begins at noon. So PM does make perfect sense. μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Arabic question
The final page of http://yemenia.com/PDF%20Files/issue34/01.pdf has the Arabic for "Yemenia Holidays" - What is the Arabic? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 03:01, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- It is the same just in Arabic اليمنية العطلات al-yiminiyyat al-ʿuṭlāt (not sure about vowels).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:59, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks! WhisperToMe (talk) 04:39, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- Correction, it says اليمنية للعطلات, al-yemeniat lil-atlat. --Soman (talk) 06:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 13:11, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Correction, it says اليمنية للعطلات, al-yemeniat lil-atlat. --Soman (talk) 06:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks! WhisperToMe (talk) 04:39, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Pronunciation of Northumbria without h-sound
Do I understand aright that the name of Northumbria is a merger of north and humbria in which the h of humbria has been "swallowed" by the h of north and is now vanished without a trace, neither in pronunciation nor anything else? --KnightMove (talk) 20:04, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- I have lived either in or close to the borders of the old Kingdom of Northumbria for almost all my life. I've never seen it spelt other than as above. You hear a variety of pronunciations, including /nɔːˈθʌmbrɪə/, /nɔːˈθʊmbrɪə/ or even /nəˈθʊmbrɪə/, but I've never noticed a /θh/ combination creep in anywhere. - Karenjc 21:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- The sequence "hh" does not occur in ordinary modern English orthography unless at a boundary between two compounded stems, each of which retains its own stress ("bathhouse" etc.) -- and in many cases such compound words can instead be spelled with a space or hyphen between the two components. So there's really no way in conventional English orthography to write occurrences of [θh] which do not span the boundary between two compounded elements. So any possible earlier surviving [θh] pronunciation (reflecting Old English "Norþhymbre" etc.) would not have had support from spelling. Sometimes local placename pronunciations are very resistant to influence from spelling (Cholmondeley etc.), but sometimes they're very influenced by spelling, and the letter "h" is often problematic. For example, Topsham "should" be pronounced [tɒpsəm], since it comes from Top's + a reduced form of "home" (where [h] is dropped at the beginning of an internal unstressed syllable, as in "vehicle"). However, it's now often pronounced as [tɒpʃəm], based on spelling. P.S. The person who added the current transcriptions to the "Topsham" article didn't appear to be too familiar with the IPA... AnonMoos (talk) 01:35, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- The one I wonder about, from time to time, is threshold. Personally I pronounce it "thresh-hold" not "thresh-old", and I understand it as something held, rather than something old. So by the "bathhouse" rule, it really ought to be "threshhold", but it isn't. Why not? --Trovatore (talk) 01:41, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- You are looking at regressive assimilation which is a kind of sound change. It simply happens over time, although spelling pronunciations (off-ten for often, formerly only said /'ɔfən/) tend to counteract such changes. I say thresh-hold myself; my father, in construction, does not. μηδείς (talk) 01:49, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- The second syllable in 'threshold' has etymologically "been altered to conform to hold". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:37, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I had assumed it was a compound, but if not then it is folk etymology and not assimilation in that case. μηδείς (talk) 18:22, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- The second syllable in 'threshold' has etymologically "been altered to conform to hold". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:37, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Osteodontokeratic
The article on osteodontokeratic culture says that the word osteodontokeratic is of mixed Latin and Greek etymology. From what I can tell ὀστέον, ὀδών and κέρας are all valid Ancient Greek words. So what makes this etymology mixed? Is there something particularly Latinate in the way those words are combined? 129.234.53.242 (talk) 20:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's of pure Greek derivation. Somebody made a mistake. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:29, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Getting used to S‐O‐V.
When I am trying to understand a language that uses a Subject–object–verb order, and I see fragments such as «yo me lavo» or « je me lave », it feels disjointed or confusing, especially if there exist multiple pronouns in the same fragment. I have an unfortunate tendency to re‐read the fragment as Subject-verb-object so I feel more comfortable, but this isn’t an appropriate method to learn a language. So what I am enquiring is, is there any technique I could use so it feels normal for me to read this order? Thanks in advance. --66.190.69.246 (talk) 21:15, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think it's just a matter of getting used to it. The best thing you can do is, go live in Spain or France (or Mexico or Quebec) and talk to people enough that it sinks in. If that's not really an option, then read stuff, watch stuff (lots of cable channels, especially in Spanish), listen to stuff. --Trovatore (talk) 23:01, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- By the way, neither Spanish nor French is SOV; they just have a few SOV constructs involving pronouns. Their basic pattern is SVO, just like English. --Trovatore (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- This. Latin is SOV; French is very much SVO. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:06, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- By the way, neither Spanish nor French is SOV; they just have a few SOV constructs involving pronouns. Their basic pattern is SVO, just like English. --Trovatore (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
“ | Will all great Neptune's ocean wash this blood Clean from my hand? No, this my hand will rather The multitudinous seas incarnadine,... |
” |
- Macbeth, Act II, Scene 2
- --Trovatore (talk) 00:21, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- It comes easily with practice, and I would also suggest practicing on English sentences, as Pp.paul.4 to you suggested. μηδείς (talk) 01:53, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Or just listen to Yoda for a while. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:18, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, Bugs, Yoda is OSV, not SOV. "Your father he is". --Lgriot (talk) 13:14, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I suspect Yoda is OV constituent order with fronting of the topic (linguistics) for emphasis. I hear Disney is having Alec Guiness resurrected for Episode 7, he will know. μηδείς (talk) 15:50, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- There is no object after (or before) a copula, Lgriot. A better example would have been "The Force, you must use", which is actually identical word order to many forms of spoken and written Japanese (except that the pronoun would be left out, and only used for emphasis or clarification of context). This fronting, that Medeis speaks of, happens in Japanese, and also Hungarian, as well as English, in some cases. "Tea, I asked for", when brought a cup of coffee instead of what you ordered (tea), is a perfectly normal response. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:09, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I suspect Yoda is OV constituent order with fronting of the topic (linguistics) for emphasis. I hear Disney is having Alec Guiness resurrected for Episode 7, he will know. μηδείς (talk) 15:50, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, Bugs, Yoda is OSV, not SOV. "Your father he is". --Lgriot (talk) 13:14, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- As Medeis says, it comes with practice. I am a Japanese translator by profession, and Japanese is SOV (when written - spoken word order is free in some situations). When I was a kid, I learned speed reading. There are many different ways to do this, depending on the person and one technique I chose was to read sentences backwards (and whole paragraphs). This works really well for me, because I understand the point of the paragraph more quickly. Funnily enough, this also works for me when translating Japanese at high speed, as I need to know what the verb is in a 50-word sentence, and what all the objects are, so I translate it by reading backwards. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 05:08, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Or just listen to Yoda for a while. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:18, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- It comes easily with practice, and I would also suggest practicing on English sentences, as Pp.paul.4 to you suggested. μηδείς (talk) 01:53, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
As for advice, there is absolutely no substitute for constant practice of saying conjugations out loud to learn the verb. Emphasizing the object when you say the conjugation will help, since English tolerates the motion of constituents more when they are stressed. I would practice both:
- Yo ME lavo
- Tú TE lavas
- El SE lava
- Nosotros NOS lavamos
- Vosotros VOS laváis
- Ellos SE lavan
as well as
- Yo ME lavo
- Yo TE lavo
- Yo LO lavo
- Yo NOS lavo
- Yo VOS lavo
- Yo LOS lavo
and
- Tú ME lavas
- Tú TE lavas
- Tú LO lavas...
etc., for all the possible combinations and for many verbs. Point with your finger to yourself and an imaginary it, and you, and so forth to correspond with the subject and object as you say them. Use spoken emphasis on the object as a trick to learning it only until it becomes easy and natural; there would never be any stress there in normal speech, since those pronouns are clitics. μηδείς (talk) 16:53, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
October 31
French translation
Is Page 319-320, a list of donation "to equip the French Army and contribute to an airplane"? And did the people who donated 0,50, donated half a franc?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:54, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Patriotic donations from the French of Tahiti to equip the French Army with an airplane and contribute to the establishment of the fifth branch." "Fifth branch" refers to the predecessor of the French Air Force. Note that aéroplane is now obsolete; the modern French word is avion. And yes, it seems that 0,50 means half a franc, which today would be worth about €1.62 or $2.10.[2] Lesgles (talk) 03:04, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- How did you get that value for 0,50 francs, lesgles? Remember the Franc was divided by 100 in the 60s. And is it half a Polynesian Franc or half a French franc? --Lgriot (talk) 13:22, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Scrap that, the CFP franc was only creted in 45. --Lgriot (talk) 13:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- He used the linked table, which says that a French Franc in 1912 is equivalent to €3.24267 in 2011, according to L'Institut national de la statistique et des études économiques. Alansplodge (talk) 21:41, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Scrap that, the CFP franc was only creted in 45. --Lgriot (talk) 13:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- How did you get that value for 0,50 francs, lesgles? Remember the Franc was divided by 100 in the 60s. And is it half a Polynesian Franc or half a French franc? --Lgriot (talk) 13:22, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- To give a small idea of the cost of a French airplane in 1912, according to this [3] source: 15 000 francs for a motor. — AldoSyrt (talk) 17:50, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Mon Dieu! On the other side of the Atlantic in 1912, you could by a Brooks Biplane (apparently a Curtiss clone), "Popular Priced Machine - Fully Equipped $1,500.00" (about FF 7,500 using the ROE quoted here). Alansplodge (talk) 22:01, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Chinese help
At File:OstasiatischeLloyd28July1911.png - Which characters state the Chinese name of the paper? Three at the top are "新文德" but I'm not sure about the others
Also what are the Chinese names in the footnotes of p. 89 and p. 90 and p. 93?
WhisperToMe (talk) 02:00, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
The one on p. 90 is 事務日報, right? WhisperToMe (talk) 03:50, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- The first one on that page looks like 時 to me. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 04:08, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I took a second look - 時務日報 seems to be more plausible WhisperToMe (talk) 04:31, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Transcriptions with my commentary: p.89: i. 申報(Shen-pao), ii. 點石齋畫報 (an illustrated supplement to the Shen-pao). iii. 郭實拉 or 獵 ("Guo Shila" or "Guo Shilie" - in Shanghainese these would be more like "Gozuh-la / Gozuhleh", closer to the original); iv. 東西洋考每月統記傳(Eastern Western Monthly Magazine); 2. 黃時鑑; v. 張燮; vi.東西洋考 (Eastern Western Monthly Magazine); vii. 察世俗每月統記傳 (Chinese Monthly Magazine, an early 19th century Chinese-language magazine published in Malaysia, see zh:察世俗每月統記傳). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- p.93: xiii: 米松林; xiv: 研究與進步; xv: 傅吾康; xvi: 上海猶太刊物 (Shanghai Jewish Chronicle). Note: the last Chinese name seems suspicious to me. It sounds more like the generic description "Jewish publication in Shanghai" rather than the name of a publication. The original publication (based on a Google search) does not bear a Chinese title, so someone at some point may have taken the description (e.g. "Shanghai Jewish Chronicle, a Jewish publication in Shanghai") from a Chinese language source and taken it as the Chinese name. The error could easily have been perpetuated by sources referring to each other. I would suggest verification from a more direct source. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:14, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Chinese sources seem to call the paper "上海猶太紀事報" - which sounds more right: see e.g. this study on the paper. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
I would also like the Chinese from p. 91. Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 05:21, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's 徳文新報. 徳文 means German language. 新報 is new+report and often used as a name of a newspaper. Oda Mari (talk) 09:32, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting.. so back then one could display the characters backwards? WhisperToMe (talk) 12:33, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- It was standard to write right-to-left when writing horizontally, (and top-down, right-to-left in normal print) across the Chinese world up until around the 1950s in mainland China, and much later elsewhere. In Hong Kong, most books and magazines are still printed this way.
- So if you see a horizontal tablet hung in or in front of a temple or palace or other traditional building, it will almost always be read right-to-left, a tablet written left-to-right in traditional contexts may well be ridiculed for being illiterate. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:45, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Horizontal and vertical writing in East Asian scripts has more information. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:47, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting.. so back then one could display the characters backwards? WhisperToMe (talk) 12:33, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- It was based on the fact that traditionally Chinese was written in columns, top-down then right-to-left. So if characters had to be written to fit in a horizontal space, then you effectively had a sequence of one-character-high "columns", and the natural order would be right-to left. Here's a moderately famous flag with two characters on it read right-to-left. AnonMoos (talk) 17:41, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- The text on the newspaper on page 91 is 青島新報, "Qingdao New Report". The text in the footnote is "泰東古今鑑". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:07, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the help! It's really interesting! WhisperToMe (talk) 03:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Chinese character - 厯 + 氵 radical
I'm trying to help a person locate a Chinese character that is 厯 plus the 氵 radical. It appears in a 19th-century gazetteer mentioning a bridge's name in Qingpu. None of the online dictionaries seem to have it. I was only able to find the 厯 portion of the character because I drew it using the Nciku dictionary. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 03:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- "Only CHF members will enjoy the privilege of reading this forum. You would need to sign up as a member and login to the forum to read this forum!" - do you mind reposting the image (or whatever it was)?
- Could it have been the similar-looking 瀝? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:52, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- A dictionary I checked tells me 厯 is a variant of 歴, which would be consistent with 氵厯 being a variant of 瀝. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Have not been able to find the character in computerised text - the online dictionaries that record it as a variant of 瀝 all use pictures. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:38, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is the image that they posted. If your dictionary says one is a variation of the other, its plausible that the variation with the water radical is it. Thanks for the help. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 13:42, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, looking for variants of 瀝 directly finds some sources that list 氵厯 as a variant: see e.g. http://www.hanwenxue.com/zidian/yitizi/11224a32201149732.html . --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:35, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is the image that they posted. If your dictionary says one is a variation of the other, its plausible that the variation with the water radical is it. Thanks for the help. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 13:42, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Have not been able to find the character in computerised text - the online dictionaries that record it as a variant of 瀝 all use pictures. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:38, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
Simple questions with "if"
I know about indirect If-questions but are there simple questions introduced with "if"? Like "If he knew this?"="Did he know this?"--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:39, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, questions don't normally start with "If" in that manner. --Jayron32 05:48, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- If it cannot be an ellipsis? "If he knew this?"="(I wonder, Can you tell me, etc.) If he knew this?" Sounds quite natural and understandable for me. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:19, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Some languages have a yes-no-question particle (the only one I can recall at the moment is Esperanto "ĉu", though they occur in natural languages also). English doesn't -- and I think that such particles are more often the same as the word for "whether" in the languages which they occur, rather than the same as the word for "if"... AnonMoos (talk) 06:41, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- In Russian this would be «Знал ли он это?». Если "if, whether" came from есть ли "if it is", so если and ли mean very close concepts (originally ли meant "if" but later it became a particle). In Belorussian/Ukrainian this would be Ці знаў ён гэта?/Чи знав він це? - both from Old East Slavic чи/ци "if, or", which is also remained in many Russian dialects. Maybe this is why it sounds so natural for me.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 07:14, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- See wikt:Category:Interrogative particles by language.
- —Wavelength (talk) 16:42, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Some languages have a yes-no-question particle (the only one I can recall at the moment is Esperanto "ĉu", though they occur in natural languages also). English doesn't -- and I think that such particles are more often the same as the word for "whether" in the languages which they occur, rather than the same as the word for "if"... AnonMoos (talk) 06:41, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- If it cannot be an ellipsis? "If he knew this?"="(I wonder, Can you tell me, etc.) If he knew this?" Sounds quite natural and understandable for me. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:19, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- (e/c) Questions can start with 'if' ("If you never slept with her, then how come her baby has your DNA?"), but what I assume Luboslov means by "simple questions" (i.e. ones not containing a conditional clause) do not.
- That said, it's always possible to contrive a context for any given set of words, and "If he knew this?" could appear in a dialogue, but it would be understood to mean something like "And how would things be different if he knew this?". -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 06:20, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Spoken Spanish frequently adds initial if to yes/no questions.
- ¿Si has visto mi carro? "Have you seen my car?"
- ¿Si tú quieres comida china? "Do you want Chinese food?"
- ¿Si vamos, o no? "Are we going, or not?"
- I have never come acrost it in formal writing (where such questions are rare, anyways) or read a description of it in a grammar book. It's curious whether there are any sources; I'll look. I have even noticed it slipping into my own speech on odd occassions. The other night I asked "If you want to eat Chinese?" and no remark was made to the strangeness of what I had said--although it was obvious to me once I'd said it." I'd advise Lyuboslov never to use it in English since it will be seen as ungrammatical in writing and be taken as a foreignism in speech. μηδείς (talk) 16:09, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- In Irish, the interrogative particle an is used in both direct and indirect questions, and in German, ob 'whether, if' is used in indirect questions, but also often in questions you're asking yourself (Ob ich heute eine Jacke anziehe? "Should I wear a jacket today?") and when you repeat a question you've already asked once and the person didn't hear you the first time (Bist du fertig? —Bitte? —Ob du fertig bist? "Are you ready? —What? —[I asked] if you're ready."). Angr (talk) 11:58, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
"mark for"
"It has also been suggested that school bullying may be a permanent mark for psychopathy." (my italics) This is copied from the psychopathy article and I don't understand the meaning of this "mark for". The dictionary says a sign, a trace, but that doesn't really make sense. So, what does this "mark for" mean in this context? Lova Falk talk 18:30, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Symptom of – or rather, a feature strongly correlated with the other. —Tamfang (talk) 18:46, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- However, the text is not about somebody who has bullied but somebody who was the victim of bullying. The text continues: "Eric Harris, one of the perpetrators of the Columbine High School massacre in 1999, had been an occasional victim of bullying and decided to shoot up his school. Consequently, he was posthumously diagnosed as a textbook and clinical psychopath." So, is there another meaning of mark for, or should the first sentence be copyedited? Lova Falk talk 18:49, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I have understood that in this context the sentence is wrong, and I have removed it. Thank you for your help! Lova Falk talk 19:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I wonder if this relates in some way to the potential or actual victim of a con being referred to as a "mark". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:30, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- The "victim" usage comes from "mark" meaning "target", as also in "marksman". See here. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:23, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I wonder if this relates in some way to the potential or actual victim of a con being referred to as a "mark". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:30, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have understood that in this context the sentence is wrong, and I have removed it. Thank you for your help! Lova Falk talk 19:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
The best ever question
You can already see where I'm going with this. Once, that would have been "The best question ever". I'm always reading nowadays about "the first ever" this and "the highest ever" that and so on. It's all changing but I don't know why it's changing, because it wasn't broke to begin with.
From 1869 college football season:
- The first ever college football national championship awarded (retroactively) was split ….
I'm sorely tempted to edit it to:
- The first college football national championship ever awarded (retroactively) was split ….
Have grammar texts caught up with this new-speak? Do they support it, or do they at least require the ever to be attached via a hyphen ("The first-ever championship awarded ...")?
I note that we still say "Best ref desk joke ever", and not "Best ever ref desk joke". Is there a subtle difference that's escaping me? -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 20:37, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- More to the point, what benefit does ever bring to the sentence, wherever it's placed? Why is 'the first championship ever' better than 'the first championship'? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 21:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- In some cases and contexts, 'ever' is required in order to make clear the thing is not just the first one this year or this season or whatever, but the first one, well, ever. That's ok.
- But things like "Obama's first ever news conference after being elected was ..." are just beyond a joke. So, there are two aspects to this issue:
- (a) whether "ever" should appear in a certain construction at all; and if so,
- (b) exactly where. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 21:54, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Placement of adverbs in English is partially in free variation, as is the case with your examples. μηδείς (talk) 22:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. The thing is, many writers/speakers are effectively treating "best ever", "first ever" etc as compound adjectives, not as adjective-adverb combinations, hence my query about hyphenisation. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 23:14, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'd get away from looking at it as a grammatical question, and look at it as a meme. In a normal voice either order is fine. But the "Best ref desk joke ever" order is part of the "Best...X...Ever!" meme in at least American English (can't imagine hearing Catherine Tate say it) where there is an exaggerated emphasis placed on all three words and it is said as if it is a complete utterance, no verb needed. μηδείς (talk) 23:43, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- It gets used a lot in colloquial English, and it sounds like over-emphasis... or "over-exaggeration", as some folks say. Note "colloquial" and not "encyclopedic". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:28, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I'd get away from looking at it as a grammatical question, and look at it as a meme. In a normal voice either order is fine. But the "Best ref desk joke ever" order is part of the "Best...X...Ever!" meme in at least American English (can't imagine hearing Catherine Tate say it) where there is an exaggerated emphasis placed on all three words and it is said as if it is a complete utterance, no verb needed. μηδείς (talk) 23:43, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. The thing is, many writers/speakers are effectively treating "best ever", "first ever" etc as compound adjectives, not as adjective-adverb combinations, hence my query about hyphenisation. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 23:14, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- If you read the adverbs in English link above, I think it is clear that "ever" at the end of the phrase is being used as an adverb of place (here time) analogously to anywhere. That explains the trend to phrase-final word order. μηδείς (talk) 18:32, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- You do need it in some contexts..."Fido is the world's biggest dog." could be the biggest dog currently alive or the biggest dog that ever lived...so in that case, adding "ever" someplace in the sentence does add some meaning. SteveBaker (talk) 01:34, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yep, as I acknowledged above. That would be "Fido is the biggest dog in history", or "Fido is the biggest dog ever", but the trouble is, many people these days would say "Fido is the biggest ever dog", which bothers me tremendously. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 04:10, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- I will assume it bothers you because you are treating it as an adverb of place, as mentioned above, which usually goes at the end of a phrase. But it is an adverb, so it can follow either the verb or the adjective. Even "Fido is ever the biggest dog" would work, although you'd rarely hear it. English and a lot of languages like to have a set conventional order for their modifiers. "The biggest old black dog ever", not "the ever black old biggest dog." That's a matter of habit and convention. Is it possible, Jack, that you are conventional?. :) μηδείς (talk) 21:51, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, and there ain't nuffink rong wif dat. That's not to say that I reject all change. Far from it. But when change occurs for no comprehensible rational reason other than ignorance, and those who know better not only don't correct them but too easily adopt the "New Ignorance" as the way we speak and write now, that's when I say "Whoa, I don't accept that". If we took a similar line of least resistance with medical training or computer science - or, indeed, encyclopedia writing - we'd be in a fine pickle. That's if the human race still existed. I know this is language we're talking about here, and it's not set in stone and it changes every day of the week. But when news outlets start telling me that someone was the "oldest ever person", I really wonder what's going on. A very few years ago, I'd have been confident in saying that such an expression was completely unnatural, nobody talks or writes like that (we say "the oldest person ever"), and the sub-editor should be retrained or sacked. (And then sacked again for the inconsistency of writing "oldest ever person" in the headline but "oldest human being ever" in the text.) Something's happened in a very short space of time to make it OK, apparently. What was that something, and why did it happen?
- As I said at the start, I'm interested in knowing if any grammar books have yet given this formulation their tick of approval. If so, so be it. If not, I'd feel secure in still regarding it as a sub-standard abuse of language, and I would proceed to carry out my threat to edit 1869 college football season et many al. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 22:38, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- I will assume it bothers you because you are treating it as an adverb of place, as mentioned above, which usually goes at the end of a phrase. But it is an adverb, so it can follow either the verb or the adjective. Even "Fido is ever the biggest dog" would work, although you'd rarely hear it. English and a lot of languages like to have a set conventional order for their modifiers. "The biggest old black dog ever", not "the ever black old biggest dog." That's a matter of habit and convention. Is it possible, Jack, that you are conventional?. :) μηδείς (talk) 21:51, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yep, as I acknowledged above. That would be "Fido is the biggest dog in history", or "Fido is the biggest dog ever", but the trouble is, many people these days would say "Fido is the biggest ever dog", which bothers me tremendously. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 04:10, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- It's one of my bugaboos (things calling for Instant Edits because Something Is Wrong On The Internet.) Yesterday, I ran into something like "1947 was the 98th ever season of the South Sydney Wombats". Yikes. --jpgordon::==( o ) 16:32, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- I can't find it now, but I ran across something the other day that went like: "It was not just the first ever X but the only ever X". And see Trumwine of Abercorn et al for a use of "only ever". -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 18:36, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
November 1
Second languages by number of speakers
I have been looking at the feedback for our article Second language, and a couple of people have requested a list of languages sorted by the number of second-language speakers. There is plenty of information about languages by the number of total speakers, but I'm not sure where to look for information about the number of second-language speakers. Ethnologue, for example, has the number of speakers of a language in various different countries, but only occasionally says anything about whether those speakers are L1 or L2 speakers. And of course, there is the thorny question of how well one needs to speak a language to consider it a second language. I expect that any answers to this question that appear in reliable sources will involve a degree of guesswork, and that any article or list we made about this would need to do a lot of explaining and clarification of the figures. Nevertheless, I think it would be a good idea to try and compile a list if we can. Does anyone know a good place to start looking for this information? — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 02:48, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- See List of languages by number of native speakers#Ethnologue (2009), which also gives estimates of the total number of speakers for some languages. Duoduoduo (talk) 15:59, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Those look like they could be a good basis for starting a list article on the topic. Thanks! — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 15:42, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Chinese characters in File:Tsingdao Brewery.jpg
What are the Chinese characters in File:Tsingdao Brewery.jpg? I mean the ones at the top, the ones on the gate, and the ones on the green sign next to the gate (the English says "Reception Center") - Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 03:53, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- On top, 青岛啤酒,世界之醉 (Qīngdǎo píjiǔ, shìjiè zhī zuì) (more or less, "Qingdao Beer which gets the world drunk"); on the metal gate arch, 青岛啤酒博物馆 ("Qingdao Beer Museum")。 On the green sign, the last two characters are of course 中心 (center), but I can't read the first two. Incidentally, here's the museum web site: http://www.tsingtaomuseum.com/index.htm -- Vmenkov (talk) 04:34, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- P.S. The green sign is actually 游客中心 (Visitor Center), as seen in http://www.bbker.com/D286419.html -- Vmenkov (talk) 04:39, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks! So "Tsingtao Beer Can Give you passion and happiness" would be "青岛啤酒可以给您幸福" right? That way the Chinese sign is known in English and the English sign is known in Chinese! The "World of Tsingtao" would be "青岛啤酒世界" right? "Since 1908" would be "以来1908年" (as in product began in 1908) right? WhisperToMe (talk) 05:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- "世界之醉" is a pun on 醉 (drunk) sounding the same as 最 (extreme, topmost), "世界之最" is a common expression meaning "best in the world", so collapsing the pun together gets you something like "the best intoxicant in the world".
- If I was translating "Tsingtao Beer Can Give you passion and happiness" literally into Chinese, I'd say something like "青岛啤酒可以给您激情與幸福". (You left out the "passion")
- "Since 19xx" when used on products in China is usually translated as "始于19xx". By the way, the grammatical way to use "以来" is to put it after the year. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:09, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, Palace Guard! I added a lot to the annotations of this picture WhisperToMe (talk) 15:03, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks! So "Tsingtao Beer Can Give you passion and happiness" would be "青岛啤酒可以给您幸福" right? That way the Chinese sign is known in English and the English sign is known in Chinese! The "World of Tsingtao" would be "青岛啤酒世界" right? "Since 1908" would be "以来1908年" (as in product began in 1908) right? WhisperToMe (talk) 05:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Teuruarii IV: French translation
"A la suite des instances du Gouverneur, Teuruarii IV est venu à Papeete, accompagné des dignitaires de l'île, au mois de mai 1900, pour faire connaître son adhésion aux propositions qui lui avaient été faites. Il signa, en conséquence , le 11 dudit mois, une déclaration concernant la réunion à la patrie française de l'île Rurutu et de ses dépendances (partie des îlots Maria), et, le 25 août suivant , le Gouverneur prenait officiellement possession de l'île Rurutu. Cette solennité eut lieu en présence des officiers de l'avisotransport Aube, des fonctionnaires et de la population de l'île, et nos couleurs, arborées sur cette nouvelle terre française aux lieu et place du pavillon du Protectorat, furent saluées par l'Aube de vingt et un coups de canon. "
- "Following instances of Governor Teuruarii IV came to Papeete, accompanied by dignitaries of the island, in May 1900, to publicize its support for the proposals that had been made. He signed as a result, 11 of the same month, a statement of the meeting at the home of French Rurutu island and its dependencies (Part islets Maria), and on 25 August, the Governor officially took possession of the island Rurutu. The ceremony took place in the presence of officers avisotransport Aube, officials and the population of the island, and our colors, this new tree on French soil to place the flag of the Protectorate were greeted by Aubc twenty-one gun salute."
What kind of ship was the Aube? What exactly is meant by "following instances of Governor", and at whose home was the meeting?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:26, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Aviso Rojomoke (talk) 07:06, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I would translate this as:
- "Following the behests of the Governor, Teuruarii IV came to Papeete, accompanied by the dignitaries of the island, in the month of May, 1900, in order to make known his adhesion to the proposals that had been made to him. Consequently, he signed, on the 11th of said month, a declaration concerning the reunion to the French fatherland of the island Rurutu and its dependencies (part of the islets of Mary), and, on the following 25 August, the Governor officially took possession of the island Rurutu. That solemnity took place in the presence of the officers of the aviso-transport [a type of warship] Aube, of the functionaries and of the island’s population, and our colours, mounted on that new French land in the place of the pavilion of the Protectorate, were saluted by the Aube with twenty-one cannon shots." Iblardi (talk) 08:15, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- The Aube aviso-transport is listed at lettre A on this site. She appears to have been launched in 1886, was was armed with 4 x 138mm cannons, 2 x 90mm cannons, and 3 x 37mm "canons-revolver", which I think refers to the 37mm "Hotchkiss revolving cannon", a type of machine gun (see Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon#Descriptions). - Karenjc 10:15, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Some other passage in French books, I didn't understand. Please answer below each passage. Thank you.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:20, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Taai, Teuruarii V, vécut au début du XXe siècle. Son fils Toromona, 1922, Teuruarii VI, est l'actuel chef de Moerai. Il a effectué il y a quelques années un voyage en France lors des festivités du 14 juillet et s'est présenté aux élections à l'Assemblée Territoriale, le 14 octobre 1962, avec Tetuamanuhiri Tetaumatani dit Tau comme colistier. Il a recueilli un nombre appréciable de votes. Un fils Maeua, Teuruarii VII, est né en 1941. Une branche cadette des Teuruarii descendante d'Epatiana joue un rôle important à Avéra, devenu district depuis 1962. Atitoa a Teuruarii a été le chef de cette circonscription du sud de l'île avant la Deuxième Guerre mondiale. Son fils Ama'itera'i a poursuivi cette tradition et est un personnage indiscuté à Avéra. Avec son frère Tai- ri a Teuruarii, un des meilleurs cultivateurs de Rurutu, il est le propriétaire de Te'autamatea à Vitaria sur laquelle se dresse encore le grand marae Tararoa. Il est intéressant de constater qu'à Rurutu des élections démocratiques ont porté au pouvoir administratif local les descendants les plus titrés dè l'ancienne noblesse locale.
- Taai, Teuruarii V, lived in the early twentieth century. His son Toromona, 1922 (is this a year of birth?) Teuruarii VI is the current head of Moerai. He made a few years ago a trip to France during the festivities of July 14 and ran for election to the Territorial Assembly, October 14, 1962, with Tetuamanuhiri Tetaumatani Tau said as his running mate. He has collected a significant number of votes. Maeua a son, Teuruarii VII, was born in 1941. A younger branch of Teuruarii down (better translation?) Epatiana plays an important role in Avera, became district since 1962 (is this saying Avera became a district in 1962?). Atitoa has Teuruarii was the chief of the district south of the island before the Second World War (what does this mean?). Ama'itera'i his son continued this tradition and is a character undisputed Avera. (better translation) With his brother Tai-ri Teuruarii one of the best farmers Rurutu, he is the owner of Te'autamatea to Vitaria on which still stands the great marae Tararoa. It is interesting to note that Rurutu democratic elections brought to power local administrative descendants dè the most successful former local nobility.........(I put parentheses around the area I don't understand from the google translation, a really good complete translation of this paragraph would be really great). This is my more important request.
- "Le roi Taatini et trois guerriers furent tués dans les tarodières d'Avera . "
- "Sa visite à Maria, jusqu'ici inhabitée justifie plus tard la revendication des habitants de Rurutu sur l'atoll. Le tribunal leur attribua collectivement en 1937, deux des îlots — où Ama'itera'i aurait laissé un marae, le reste étant donné aux gens de Rimatara."
- His visit to Maria, uninhabited until later justifies the claim of the inhabitants of Rurutu Atoll. The court attributed to them collectively in 1937, two islands - where Ama'itera'i have left a marae, the rest being given to people Rimatara. (What does this mean?)
- Not a translation, but some explanations. He visited Maria, that was inhabited at this time. Later, inhabitants of Ruru Atoll laid claim to Maria. In 1937 the court gave to the inhabitants of Ruru, as a common ownership (no a part to each one), only two islets, those where Ama'itera'i had left a marae. The other islets (of the atoll) were given to the inhabitants of Rimatara. — AldoSyrt (talk) 19:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- His visit to Maria, uninhabited until later justifies the claim of the inhabitants of Rurutu Atoll. The court attributed to them collectively in 1937, two islands - where Ama'itera'i have left a marae, the rest being given to people Rimatara. (What does this mean?)
- Son successeur Paa, Teuruarii III, présida d'une main ferme à la prospérité du petit royaume protestant de Rurutu.
- His successor Paa, Teuruarii III, presided with a firm hand in the small kingdom prosperity Protestant Rurutu. (Better translation)
- Son fils Epatiana, Teuruarii IV, (1879 ?-1933) fut le dernier roi de Rurutu, devint chef pensionné de la République Française et recevait à ce titre une allocation de 800 fr or.
- What does it mean he became a Chief of the French Republic?
Some of those near the end:
"uninhabited until then, later justified", "two of the small islands"
"...to the prosperity of the small Protestant kingdom..."
You overlooked pensionné... -- AnonMoos (talk) 09:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- I still don't understand what the second part means about the 1937 court ruling or what not. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 10:34, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Okay thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 10:34, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah it said " pensioner became chief of the French Republic" does it mean the chief (Teuruarii) became a pensioner of the French Republic--KAVEBEAR (talk) 10:31, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- In the phrase Atitoa a Teuruarii a été le chef, the first word "a" is part of the name, not the avoir verb: "Atitoa a Teuruarii was the chief" — AldoSyrt (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Une branche cadette des Teuruarii descendante d'Epatiana: "A younger branch of Teuruarii that was descended from Epatiana" — AldoSyrt (talk) 18:40, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Un personnage indiscuté: ~ "A great figure" (with great authority) — AldoSyrt (talk) 18:48, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, Areva became a district in 1962. — AldoSyrt (talk) 19:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
dornthly dog pest
A tombstone inscription (Girod Street Cemetery in New Orleans) read: Alas that one whose dornthly joy had often to trust in heaven should canty thus sudden to from all its hopes benivens and though thy love for off remore that dealt the dog pest thou left to prove thy sufferings while below. Sacred to the memory of Robert John, a native of this city, son of Robert and Jane Creswell died June 4, 1845 age 26 years 7 months (see [5], [6]). It is quoted in the nobel-prize travelogue Travels with Charley: In Search of America. Were the Creswells real persons, the inscription a real inscription and what was meant? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 11:55, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- It looks to me like a text mangled by an engraver who did not speak English or was illiterate. I expect that "dornthly" stands for "earthly". In addition there appears to be some words missing, and the word order has been shuffled as well. Googling the first few words of the quote brings up a few sources that indicate that no one seems to have the faintest idea of what the epitaph means, but that its bizarre poetry makes it quotable. --Xuxl (talk) 15:53, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Firstly, we're dealing here not with an inscription that is on a gravestone, but one that a writer says is on a gravestone. My first thought was that the lettering is very worn, and different readers will make out different "words".
- But then I read "Veracity of Travels", where I see:
- Steigerwald concluded that Travels contains such a level of invention, and Steinbeck took such great liberty with the truth, that the work has limited claim to being non-fiction.
- Bill Barich said "I'm fairly certain that Steinbeck made up most of the book". There's your grain of salt.
- Speaking of grains of salt, I'm not sure why you describe it as a "nobel-prize travelogue". Steinbeck did win the Nobel, the prize being announced when Travels with Charley had only very recently been published. The prize could not possibly have taken the book into account; it was for his body of work done before then. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 18:47, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- My quote is not from Steinbeck (who, if we believe the wikipedia quote in Travels with Charley: In Search of America#Part Four, has "darnthly" instead of "dornthly"). It is from from the 1938 New Orleans city guide, referenced in my question. The "nobel-prize travelogue" in my question alludes to the Nobel Award Ceremony Speech of 1962 mentioning it at length (about one sixth of the award ceremony speech). Does Greco San Pablo in Travels with Charley: In Search of America#Part Four and also in this article in Wall Street International refer to San Pablo painted by El Greco? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:14, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I see. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 20:18, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Toilet signs
Not exactly a language question, but couldn't find another place to ask... In Poland they have triangles (men) and circles (women). Are there any other countries with non-standard (i.e. no pictogram of men/women, or first letters of the respective words for men/women) toilet signs? I am not looking for rare/funny signs, but for signs which are commonly used in the country. bamse (talk) 19:48, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Is this really common in Poland? I'm curious as to where this originated since it wouldn't be obvious to me which door I was supposed to go through at all. Dismas|(talk) 19:59, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Not just Poland, apparently, but also California uses this symbolism. Here's a look at some possible answers. Angr (talk) 20:47, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Don't know why they don't just show a guy whipping it out and a woman squatting if they want to be clear for the illiterate. Are there any signs like that besides in nightclubs? μηδείς (talk) 20:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- This old RD discussion may also be of interest here. Angr (talk) 20:56, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Don't know why they don't just show a guy whipping it out and a woman squatting if they want to be clear for the illiterate. Are there any signs like that besides in nightclubs? μηδείς (talk) 20:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Not just Poland, apparently, but also California uses this symbolism. Here's a look at some possible answers. Angr (talk) 20:47, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Medeis -- you can see signs somewhat along those lines (though less dynamically vulgar) at File:Ladies&gents.JPG... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:21, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Having only run across the symbolism in California many years ago, I vaguely recall some statement about it being for the benefit of guide dogs for the blind -- you could give them the command for "mens room" and they knew which was which. I have NO referencable source for this memory.
- DaHorsesMouth, today 184.100.84.47 (talk) 00:40, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- That actually makes a lot of sense. μηδείς (talk) 00:52, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- So dogs can look up at a sign on a door, and go through the right door? But they can only do it when the sign is a very simple shape, not a complicated symbol or word? 04:22, 2 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.118.165 (talk)
- Yes, exactly. Many intelligent animals can be trained to recognize geometric shapes. See the not particularly well-written article dog intelligence especially for the see also links at the bottom which may be more helpful. μηδείς (talk) 17:06, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- So dogs can look up at a sign on a door, and go through the right door? But they can only do it when the sign is a very simple shape, not a complicated symbol or word? 04:22, 2 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.118.165 (talk)
- That actually makes a lot of sense. μηδείς (talk) 00:52, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
November 2
Alhambra...a kind of Gazebo?
Our article "gazebo" says that an "alhambra" is a kind of gazebo. I can't find any reference to the word "alambra" being related to a gazebo. Online searches turn up only the greek city of Alampra (which has an alternative spelling with a 'b' in it) and several other place-names spelled "Alhambra" with an 'h'. Online dictionaries seem to have no definition for that word.
Is the article correct? (and if it is, we need a reference!) SteveBaker (talk) 01:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Odd, Steve. I found many hits containing Alhambra and Gazebo. This one tells me an Alhambra is a gazebo recognised by a dome-shaped canopy. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 01:32, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Ah! That's the problem...the article spelled it without the "h". OK - can fix it now! Thanks! SteveBaker (talk) 01:42, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Repeat after me: "In Hertford, Hereford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen." Clarityfiend (talk) 07:40, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- The rine in Spine sties minely in the pline. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:19, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Repeat after me: "In Hertford, Hereford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen." Clarityfiend (talk) 07:40, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
"Rolling hills" in French
What would be the correct way to say "Rolling hills" in French? A friend suggests "Collines Roulant", but seeing as that has only 87 Google hits (many of which seem to be automatically machine-translated versions of English-language sites), I doubt that's the most accurate translation. Thank you in advance. 86.158.81.44 (talk) 19:36, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- The use of rolling before hills is idiomatic in English, which means that it isn't likely to translate directly into other language. Hills don't really roll, after all. In French, colline already implies a feature with a rounded top (whereas a steeper or more rugged feature is likely to be called a mont or montagne regardless of height). The only thing that is missing is the idea of a landscape full of rounded hills, as implied in the expression rolling hills. To convey this, you might use paysage de collines. Marco polo (talk) 20:08, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- Edit conflict.
A word for word translation: "Collines roulantes" or "Collines qui roulent". but it makes no sense to me in French. I don't known the meaning of the phrase "Rolling hills" in English.If it is used to describe a landscape may be: "un moutonnement de collines". — AldoSyrt (talk) 20:12, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not a native speaker, so I'm not sure about moutonnement. It may be poetic. Un paysage de collines would be a way to convey rolling hills if you want to describe a landscape objectively. If you are using it to describe a more subjective experience ("We drove over rolling hills") you might use une ondulation de collines. Marco polo (talk) 20:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Onduler Hits Moutonner Hits "ondulation de collines" 103 "moutonnement de collines" 3900 "ondulations de collines" 5840 "moutonnements de collines" 39 "collines qui ondulent" 9060 "collines qui moutonnent": 832
- When I think it over, I use spontaneously the plural "des ondulations de collines", rather than "une ondulation de collines"; but "un moutonnement de collines". — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:44, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- There are even more hits for "collines ondulantes" (24,400) and "collines onduleuses" (10,000). Lesgles (talk) 18:44, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- I know a Colleen who is quite undulous. μηδείς (talk) 19:18, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have an aunt named Coline, pronounced Colleen. Some people wonder if it indicates French heritage, but no. My grandparents had already had 3 girls and they were hoping for their first son, whom they named Colin in advance. No such luck; but they'd become attached to the name Colin by then, so they just added an e. She's usually just called Col anyway, which is what she would've been called if she'd been a male. They went on to have a 5th girl, my mother, and never any sons. That's the penalty for presumptuousness. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 20:54, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for your help everybody! Very much appreciated. :) 86.158.81.44 (talk) 03:45, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- I have an aunt named Coline, pronounced Colleen. Some people wonder if it indicates French heritage, but no. My grandparents had already had 3 girls and they were hoping for their first son, whom they named Colin in advance. No such luck; but they'd become attached to the name Colin by then, so they just added an e. She's usually just called Col anyway, which is what she would've been called if she'd been a male. They went on to have a 5th girl, my mother, and never any sons. That's the penalty for presumptuousness. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 20:54, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- I know a Colleen who is quite undulous. μηδείς (talk) 19:18, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- There are even more hits for "collines ondulantes" (24,400) and "collines onduleuses" (10,000). Lesgles (talk) 18:44, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- When I think it over, I use spontaneously the plural "des ondulations de collines", rather than "une ondulation de collines"; but "un moutonnement de collines". — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:44, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
November 3
Questions about Id al-Adha
1) Am I right that it should be pronounced ʿīdu l-ʾaḍḥā and neither ʿīdu ʾal-ʾaḍḥā nor ʿīd ʾal-ʾaḍḥā? And that the IPA transcription in our article is not so correct? 2) Where have ey-/ay- in the first word come from?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- In quasi-classical Arabic, it would be ʕīdu-l-ʔaḍħā in the nominative case, ʕīda-l-ʔaḍħā in the accusative, and ʕīdi-l-ʔaḍħā in the genitive... AnonMoos (talk) 07:57, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Has the WP article to be corrected?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:35, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Cases and wasl in Arabic transliteration
General questions: 1) How to transliterate similar wasl combinations in general? 2) Should one transliterate nominative ending when a word done in isolation? Is عيد ʿīdun or ʿīd? Is العيد ʾal-ʿīdu or ʾal-ʿīd? --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- There's no one single "right" answer for how to transcribe i'rab in all circumstances. In classical Arabic, it was not usually pronounced at the end of a sentence, but was generally pronounced elsewhere in a sentence according to the rules governing word-joining (sandhi). In modern standard Arabic, it's not too often pronounced except in a "high" formal style, or in certain fixed phrases and closely-joined syntactic constructions -- and only a relatively few people can consistently produce the correct case forms etc. in spontaneous speech. It all depends on what purpose your transcription is intended to serve... AnonMoos (talk) 07:43, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- In the case the endings are not pronounced, will ʾal- be pronounced in its full form: ʿīd ʾal-ʾaḍḥā etc.? Or ʿīd l-ʾaḍḥā?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:36, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- First off, the definite article does not begin with a glottal stop except at the beginning of sentences. In colloquial Arabic dialects without real iʕrāb the article often has an inherent "e" or "i" vowel (this explains the "el-" often seen in journalistic versions of Arabic names). I would guess that in at least some types of modern standard Arabic pronunciation, it could often be "al-" if the preceding iʕrāb is dropped, but I don't know that from direct experience... AnonMoos (talk) 12:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- In short: in the simple situations it is advised to transliterate the article always as al-, and ʾal- at the begining of sentences, and drop the case endings. So we have two options: ʿīd al-ʾaḍḥā (simplistic) and ʿīdu-l-ʾaḍḥā (quasi-classical). Right?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:19, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- First off, the definite article does not begin with a glottal stop except at the beginning of sentences. In colloquial Arabic dialects without real iʕrāb the article often has an inherent "e" or "i" vowel (this explains the "el-" often seen in journalistic versions of Arabic names). I would guess that in at least some types of modern standard Arabic pronunciation, it could often be "al-" if the preceding iʕrāb is dropped, but I don't know that from direct experience... AnonMoos (talk) 12:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Transliteration of Arabic talks about some different systems of transliteration, if you haven't read that yet. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:39, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunately it's a little vague and does not explain minor peculiarities.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:19, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- The transliteration system I've usually been told to use is by the International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies. There are some charts there that might help. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:35, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunately it's a little vague and does not explain minor peculiarities.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:19, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
If you write Russian with only consonants and not vowels (as in Arabic, will written words have too much ambiguity when they are out of context?
- Example: Zdravstvujte (Hello) becomes Zdrvstvjt. --Write English in Cyrillic (talk) 09:04, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Н нктрх рсскйзчнх фрмх бл гр, кгд пльзвтл бщлсь, спльзй тльк сглснй бкв. Й н знй, нскльк пнтн мй прдлжнй.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:32, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- You've broken Google Translate - [7] 09:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Ай хоуп ит уон'т брейк самбади'з брейн.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:53, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- You've broken Google Translate - [7] 09:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Polish has been written in Arabic script by Muslim Tatars, so it wouldn't surprise me if Russian has, too. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 10:46, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Polish? Have you meant Belarusian?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:13, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Friendly grammar note. The perfect is rarely used with to mean in English, and not in the way you just used it. More idiomatic would be "do you mean" or "did you mean". You might see the pluperfect as in "it was unclear what he had meant by that". μηδείς (talk) 19:07, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks! I personally like the perfect tense. :) Maybe this is because of interference from my first and third foreign languages (German and French respectively). The simple past seems for me to describe more distant past actions.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Friendly grammar note. The perfect is rarely used with to mean in English, and not in the way you just used it. More idiomatic would be "do you mean" or "did you mean". You might see the pluperfect as in "it was unclear what he had meant by that". μηδείς (talk) 19:07, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Polish? Have you meant Belarusian?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:13, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Given Russian has fewer vowel distinctions than English, losing the information carried by the vowels should remove less of the signal than it would in English, which is easy to read in abjad form given enough context. Indeed, in spoken Russian there is a severe reduction of contrast (/a/ and /o/ and /e/ and /i/ merge when unstressed, and all four merge after soft consonants when unstressed) meaning that almost all information is carried by only one stressed vowel per word. You can look at English phonology, Russian phonology, and the various links at redundancy. μηδείς (talk) 16:25, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
"Н нктрх рсскйзчнх фрмх бл гр, кгд пльзвтл бщлсь" - this was pretty hard to read (much harder than that piece in which the letters were transposed (English equivalent)) Don't know if it's ambiguous, though. I suppose one could write a program to see if removing vowels results in many ambiguities Asmrulz (talk) 20:23, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Dbt thts hrd t ll fr ntv rssn spkrs. μηδείς (talk) 20:52, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- It was for me and I am one:) Asmrulz (talk) 20:55, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Как 'немецкий' человек, Я понимал "не, когда" и "был". μηδείς (talk) 21:16, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- ясно. Всё равно трудно читается без гласных. Впрочем, я не настаиваю, что это справедливо для всех "нэйтивов" русского. Есть, наверно, люди, кто даже вот такое читает без проблем :) Asmrulz (talk) 23:05, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Friendly grammar note. Unlike English I, Russian Я is never capitalised unless sentence-initially. On the other hand, Вы (you) is capitalised in some types of writing. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 21:50, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Two misses: «нa» and «была». This clearly shows that Russian vowels are also important even if they are reduced in speech.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Как 'немецкий' человек, Я понимал "не, когда" и "был". μηδείς (talk) 21:16, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Dbt thts hrd t ll fr ntv rssn spkrs.
- Doubt that's hard to ll for native Russian speakers.
- This native English speaker is stumped for the 5th word. Bielle (talk) 21:24, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Got it: Doubt that's hard at all for native Russian speakers. Bielle (talk) 21:26, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- It was for me and I am one:) Asmrulz (talk) 20:55, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- okey-dokey, here goes: the longest ambigouos string of consonants (ignoring declensions, what part of speech the word is, etc) is стрфтгрфчскй, which gives астрофотографический (astrofotografichesky) and стереофотографический (stereofotografichesky). The string which yields the most words is пр (about 30 words.) (using aspell's dictionary) Asmrulz (talk) 21:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
It will be less ambiguous if you mark where vowels are or separate syllables. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Write English in Cyrillic (talk • contribs) 23:35, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- It does not matter. «б*л*» can be read «была, было, были, бала, балу, бале, балы, боли, бела, белу, белы, била, били, било» etc.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:02, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
I said "In some Russian language forums there was a game when users communicated using only consonants". It is not so difficult to understand for natives, it's like some sort of rebuses, but it can be only a language game. Abjads do not fit Russian for serious purposes.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Data
Is "data" singular or plural? --168.7.232.246 (talk) 17:50, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- It is the plural of the Latin datum, "given". It is commonly treated as a mass noun in English, which agree with singular verbs. Some purists kvetch it must be treated as a plural. You can use whatever you like, but be consistent, and follow a style guide when you are required to do so for school or publication. (If you say the data are, make sure you say the datum is when referring to just one fact.) See data. μηδείς (talk) 18:08, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- There's also the question, "Do you rhyme the first syllable with rat or with rate?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- That's in free variation. μηδείς (talk) 20:10, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- And those two are not the only options. I say data to rhyme with barter, carter, charter, farter, garter and starter - all non-rhotically. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 20:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- That's in free variation. μηδείς (talk) 20:10, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- There's also the question, "Do you rhyme the first syllable with rat or with rate?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Datini? No, that's not how I say it. How do you pronounce it? Oh wait, maybe you're offering me a martini. No thanks, I never drink before 9 AM. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 21:42, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- The aspect of this that sometimes confuses people is that the usage changed as computers became widely available. Before the computer age, "datum"s generally came in small numbers. With computers, "datum"s started to come in numbers too large to be distinguished as individuals, like grains of sand on a beach. Looie496 (talk) 02:52, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Is this another AE/BE difference?
In reading news reports on Hurricane Sandy in both US and UK sources, I note left-of-the-pond uses "swath" vs right-of-the-pond "swathe". I've perused our article on the subject and learned nothing, and "the harder I thinks, the confuseder I gets":
- In US/AE, bath and bathe are two different (but related) words, and are pronounced differently as well;
- Likewise, lath and lathe are different and UNrelated words, pronounced differently;
So, what about swath and swathe?
- Are they pronounced the same?
- Do they have the same meaning, a strip of something (usually land)?
- Or, are they two completely different words?
(And I expect Jack to chime in on his local usage too, just for completeness...)
Thanks! --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 18:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
See swath and swathe. μηδείς (talk) 19:00, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
DaHorsesMouth -- Part of what you mention is due to the phenomenon of nouns ending with a voiceless fricative, while corresponding verbs end with a voiced fricative (only somewhat imperfectly reflected in English spelling). So "a house" [s] / "to house" [z], "strife" / "to strive", "breath" [ɵ] / "to breathe" [ð]. Of course, in some cases noun plurals also have voiced fricatives... AnonMoos (talk) 19:21, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
I don't think I've ever come across the word "swath". It's a nasty, mean, spiteful little word I would not use even if I knew of it. -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 20:37, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- The Old English is swæþ, for which the New English should be swath, thus pronounced. Do you insulars actually say /sweɪð/? μηδείς (talk) 20:48, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, we continentals* actually do, and we spell it 'swathe'. Mind you, it's mostly found in journo-speak, such as in references to the area of carnage (human and other) carved out by Sandy. (* We gave up our claim to being the world's largest island when it was generally agreed we're more properly regarded as a continental land mass; the smallest one thereof. But that's OK, we're not size queens - not about that sort of thing anyway.) -- Jack of Oz [Talk] 01:13, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Where did our capitalisation rules for headings come from?
Wikipedia's Manual of Style requires that we use sentence case for article and section titles, capitalising only the first word. That breaks all the rules I was taught at school, and all the rules being taught to kids at the Australian school where I teach (not English, but I checked with some English teachers). Our rule is to capitalise everything but the minor words - and, the, of, etc.
I can accept Wikipedia's rules (although I still struggle to get it right sometimes after several years of editing here). I'm just curious as to where they come from. HiLo48 (talk) 23:19, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Here are links to some previous discussions.
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 12#Headings and Sub-Headings: Capitalization of Major Words (version of 14:10, 22 September 2010) (April and May 2005)
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 55#Capitalization in Headings (version of 14:32, 22 September 2010) (August and October 2006)
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 108#Capitalization of words within section headings. (version of 17:12, 13 October 2010) (May 2009)
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 121#title case and sentence case (version of 07:31, 13 May 2011) (April 2011)
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Headings#Capitalization (version of 07:39, 13 August 2011) (November 2006)
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#A question on sentence and Title case (version of 16:18, 3 November 2012) (July 2012)
- —Wavelength (talk) 01:00, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Well, in those links I see considerable debate, with extremely assertive and absolute posts on either side, a claim that we're following the latest trends, and another one that we've always done it that way. I think my question still stands. How was it decided? Is title case more common in the part of the world where Wikipedia began? HiLo48 (talk) 01:24, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Here is a link to the revision of 16:12, 1 March 2003, in which an editor added this statement: "Capitalize the first word and any proper nouns in headlines, but leave the rest lower case." That tells us something about "when", but I still do not have an answer to "why".
- —Wavelength (talk) 02:50, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- I've found a few cases where the capitalization disambiguates. —Tamfang (talk) 04:38, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- What are those cases?—Wavelength (talk) 14:59, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- ISO uses "sentence case" for the titles of their standards - if you deem the em-dash in the title to be a "sentence" delimiter. Likewise they generally capitalise only the first letter of the title of each section/clause within the standard (based on my experience with dozens of their standards). Mitch Ames (talk) 07:22, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
HiLo48 -- in the case of book titles, you're indisputably correct. However, the question is whether these are truly analogous to book titles... AnonMoos (talk) 10:51, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Some scholarly journals capitalize only the first word of an article title, and some capitalize all important words. My impression is that math journals tend to capitalize only the first word (e.g. Forum Geometricorum), while economics journals tend to capitalize all major words (e.g. the American Economic Review). I always wondered about the origin of the distinction. I assume the origin of the Wikipedia style is based on what some early Wikislylists were used to in academic journals.
- Also I would note that the British magazine The Economist capitalizes only the first word of an article title, whereas the American magazines National Geographic and Scientific American capitalize all major words. So I wonder if it is in part a British versus American thing. Duoduoduo (talk) 14:05, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
November 4
Please state directly if this is a good prose or a bad prose.
I should like to write a dirge on them, since their lavish use in the form of knocking, hammering, and tumbling things about has made the whole of my life a daily torment. Certainly there are people, nay, very many, who will smile at this, because they are not sensitive to noise; it is precisely these people, however, who are not sensitive to argument, thought, poetry or art, in short, to any kind of intellectual impression: a fact to be assigned to the coarse quality and strong texture of their brain tissues. On the other hand, in the biographies or in other records of the personal utterances of almost all great writers, I find complaints of the pain that noise has occasioned to intellectual men. For example, in the case of Kant, Goethe, Lichtenberg, Jean Paul; and indeed when no mention is made of the matter it is merely because the context did not lead up to it. I should explain the subject we are treating in this way: If a big diamond is cut up into pieces, it immediately loses its value as a whole; or if an army is scattered or divided into small bodies, it loses all its power; and in the same way a great intellect has no more power than an ordinary one as soon as it is interrupted, disturbed, distracted, or diverted; for its superiority entails that it concentrates all its strength on one point and object, just as a concave mirror concentrates all the rays of light thrown upon it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.205.112.128 (talk) 09:45, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- Determining whether something is "good" or "bad" is subjective and dependent on context. However, since these readability questions keep getting posted here, here's a link to a site that may help you determine it for yourself. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:22, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I'm sorry to say this but, in my opinion, this is very bad prose. It's almost impossible for me to determine the argument you're making. The text is overly florid, with so many metaphors that your point is almost completely obscured. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 10:27, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for being very honest and direct to the point Cucumber Mike! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.205.112.128 (talk) 10:58, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
As a Russian saying goes: "Be simpler and you'll attract people".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:31, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- It should be noted that the passage above is a translation from an essay by Arthur Schopenhauer called "On Noise". Looie496 (talk) 15:08, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Is this prose readable?
Question removed - Cucumber Mike (talk) 14:41, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
I have removed your question. Whilst we are generally happy to offer limited advice on English, we do not do people's homework for them, and we are not a proof reading service. I note that you have posted the same text elsewhere on the net asking people to read your 'English Essay', and hence I suspect this is homework. If you disagree with what I have done, please discuss it on the talk page (click 'discussion' at the top of this page). - Cucumber Mike (talk) 14:41, 4 November 2012 (UTC)