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== the thumb, the nose == |
== the thumb, the nose == |
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howdy. A couple of years ago I wrote the article [[:de:Lange Nase]] ([[Cocking a snook]]) and explained the name(s) of selfsame gesture in German, English, French & Italian. Now there's a Spanish article on the [[:es:Pito catalán]], but apparently this name is current only in Argentina and Uruguay. Question: what is the gesture called in Spain? [[:es:Palmo de narices]]? (es:Wikipedia:Consultas is blocked/protected for some reason, so I cannot ask there). Or anywhere? --[[User:Judith Wahr|Judith Wahr]] ([[User talk:Judith Wahr|talk]]) 23:36, 18 February 2018 (UTC) |
howdy. A couple of years ago I wrote the article [[:de:Lange Nase]] ([[Cocking a snook]]) and explained the name(s) of selfsame gesture in German, English, French & Italian. Now there's a Spanish article on the [[:es:Pito catalán]], but apparently this name is current only in Argentina and Uruguay. Question: what is the gesture called in Spain? [[:es:Palmo de narices]]? (es:Wikipedia:Consultas is blocked/protected for some reason, so I cannot ask there). Or anywhere? --[[User:Judith Wahr|Judith Wahr]] ([[User talk:Judith Wahr|talk]]) 23:36, 18 February 2018 (UTC) |
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:It's been protected for five years. You could ask them to remove the protection (I would do it myself but I don't speak Spanish). You could also try [[:ca:Viquipèdia:Taulell de consultes]]. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7D:503F:6300:12B:9432:CA92:6CCA|2A02:C7D:503F:6300:12B:9432:CA92:6CCA]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7D:503F:6300:12B:9432:CA92:6CCA|talk]]) 00:01, 19 February 2018 (UTC) |
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:According to this [[:ca:Pam i pipa]] the gesture doesn't have a proper name in ''castelhano''. [[Special:Contributions/2A02:C7D:503F:6300:12B:9432:CA92:6CCA|2A02:C7D:503F:6300:12B:9432:CA92:6CCA]] ([[User talk:2A02:C7D:503F:6300:12B:9432:CA92:6CCA|talk]]) 00:09, 19 February 2018 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/5.80.210.173|5.80.210.173]] ([[User talk:5.80.210.173#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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= February 19 = |
= February 19 = |
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:I don't know anything about the text, but "Vae puto me deum fieri" displays [[accusative and infinitive]] syntax, while "Vae puto deus fio" doesn't make too much sense as a single sentence (as far as I can see) without some conjunction inserted between the second and third words. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 09:39, 25 February 2018 (UTC) |
:I don't know anything about the text, but "Vae puto me deum fieri" displays [[accusative and infinitive]] syntax, while "Vae puto deus fio" doesn't make too much sense as a single sentence (as far as I can see) without some conjunction inserted between the second and third words. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] ([[User talk:AnonMoos|talk]]) 09:39, 25 February 2018 (UTC) |
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::The grammar is good because of the nature of this defective irregular verb ''fio, fiere, factus sum'', which means "become" or "be made". It only has a present, future and imperfect tense in the indicative mood, and the present indicative lacks the first and second person plural. When it means "become" it is followed by the nominative. When it means "be made" the verb is active in form and passive in meaning and must be used as the passive of ''facio, facere, feci, factum'' ("make"). Thus the perfect is ''factus sum'' ("I have been made"), future perfect ''factus ero'' ("I shall have been made") and pluperfect ''factus eram'' ("I had been made"). [[Special:Contributions/86.131.187.242|86.131.187.242]] ([[User talk:86.131.187.242|talk]]) 12:02, 25 February 2018 (UTC) |
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::See [[fieri facias]]. [[Special:Contributions/86.131.187.242|86.131.187.242]] ([[User talk:86.131.187.242|talk]]) 12:10, 25 February 2018 (UTC) <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/5.80.210.173|5.80.210.173]] ([[User talk:5.80.210.173#top|talk]]) </small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::"Vae puto me deum fieri!" is "proper" Latin, like saying "I think that I am becoming a god" in English, but surely some modern scholar was horrified at the apparently poor grammar and corrected it. Proper grammar for written texts and the way people actually speak are quite different, in English and in Latin. He's just saying two things, "deus fio, puto", "I'm becoming a god, I think", not speaking with absolutely impeccable grammar. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] ([[User talk:Adam Bishop|talk]]) 13:04, 25 February 2018 (UTC) |
::"Vae puto me deum fieri!" is "proper" Latin, like saying "I think that I am becoming a god" in English, but surely some modern scholar was horrified at the apparently poor grammar and corrected it. Proper grammar for written texts and the way people actually speak are quite different, in English and in Latin. He's just saying two things, "deus fio, puto", "I'm becoming a god, I think", not speaking with absolutely impeccable grammar. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] ([[User talk:Adam Bishop|talk]]) 13:04, 25 February 2018 (UTC) |
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:Nothing with punctuation is "proper" first century Latin. You have to make a guess at the emphasis. [[User:Wymspen|Wymspen]] ([[User talk:Wymspen|talk]]) 14:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC) |
:Nothing with punctuation is "proper" first century Latin. You have to make a guess at the emphasis. [[User:Wymspen|Wymspen]] ([[User talk:Wymspen|talk]]) 14:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:39, 25 February 2018
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February 18
What are engineers' helmets called?
There's no article on Wikipedia titled engineering helmet or yellow helmet, so what are the ones they wear on top of their heads called? --stranger195 (talk • contribs • guestbook) 10:12, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- Hard hats. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:25, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you --stranger195 (talk • contribs • guestbook) 10:34, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- Redirects made. Matt Deres (talk) 15:44, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, you beat me to it. Actually finding a specific type of helmet isn't easy, as you have to wade through the text of our Helmet article and even then you might have to negotiate yet another article to find what you want. We could do with a List of helmets. Alansplodge (talk) 16:07, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- That's what Category:Helmets is for; and indeed, the hard hat is there. --194.213.3.4 (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- Yes that's very true, the old categories versus lists argument. I have added a link directly to the category page at Helmet (disambiguation). Thanks, Alansplodge (talk) 20:30, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- It's not really "versus", and it certainly doesn't hurt to have both a cat and a list. My point was that when you don't have one, you can successfully use the other instead. --194.213.3.4 (talk) 08:26, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- Point taken. Alansplodge (talk) 11:38, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- It's not really "versus", and it certainly doesn't hurt to have both a cat and a list. My point was that when you don't have one, you can successfully use the other instead. --194.213.3.4 (talk) 08:26, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- Yes that's very true, the old categories versus lists argument. I have added a link directly to the category page at Helmet (disambiguation). Thanks, Alansplodge (talk) 20:30, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- That's what Category:Helmets is for; and indeed, the hard hat is there. --194.213.3.4 (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, you beat me to it. Actually finding a specific type of helmet isn't easy, as you have to wade through the text of our Helmet article and even then you might have to negotiate yet another article to find what you want. We could do with a List of helmets. Alansplodge (talk) 16:07, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- Redirects made. Matt Deres (talk) 15:44, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you --stranger195 (talk • contribs • guestbook) 10:34, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
the thumb, the nose
howdy. A couple of years ago I wrote the article de:Lange Nase (Cocking a snook) and explained the name(s) of selfsame gesture in German, English, French & Italian. Now there's a Spanish article on the es:Pito catalán, but apparently this name is current only in Argentina and Uruguay. Question: what is the gesture called in Spain? es:Palmo de narices? (es:Wikipedia:Consultas is blocked/protected for some reason, so I cannot ask there). Or anywhere? --Judith Wahr (talk) 23:36, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
February 19
exclamation marks
Is it considered yelling when you use more than one exclamation mark? Not just here on Wikipedia. Miss Bono [hello, hello!] 21:34, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- You mean two or more together, like "HELP!!", right? This is only an informal usage: as Wikipedia says here, it's "generally considered unacceptable in formal prose". In informal usage, it is like yelling. --69.159.62.113 (talk) 22:52, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- This might be language-dependent. I was taught that in Croatian up to three exclamation/question marks is grammatically correct. I don't remember our English teacher having any thoughts on the subject FWIW 78.1.172.210 (talk) 00:08, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- WTF?!?!? Where did you learn that rule, a semiotics professor? In colloquial communication Damn, she fine!!! is just fine, and not yelling, although it is emphatic. Depends on the context, just as one wouldn't use emoticons in formal speech. It's a good rule of thumb to avoid usages of which you are suspicious unless you have good examples to follow. ALL CAPS is not so much yelling, as it is something which can get on your nerves when it is used for attention getting like unusual loudness. Where I grew up, people would cross the street and converse in low tones. I was shocked to find that in NYC people would rather have everyone in 500 feet hear their business rather than go ten yards out of their way to speak face to face. Glad to see you posting again!!! μηδείς (talk) 03:28, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- Well I'm from Croatia and that's what we were taught in school :) (Albeit, certainly you will not see it in serious literature attached to "Glad to see you posting"...) In fact I find it droll that you happy Americans with your culture of smiling to random people in the street and wait staff greeting you like you were related to them (no offense meant, just that us Slavic folks seem to have a grumpy reoutation) so abhor the poor exclamation mark! 78.1.172.210 (talk) 08:11, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind.[1] Iapetus (talk) 10:52, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, μηδείς, you sassy lass!!!! Glad to hear from you!! We do use these ¡¿?! weird things. And I have read it ¿¿¡¡like this!!??. Hahaha, Iapetus... Miss Bono [hello, hello!] 18:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
February 21
Automatic writing
What is automatic writing and how does it work? Miss Bono [hello, hello!] 20:54, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Are you referring to something different from what's described in the article Automatic writing? Deor (talk) 21:05, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
February 22
Mounting a running horse
What is the correct construction: "mount a horse at a run" or "mount a horse at the run" or something else? Ericoides (talk) 05:52, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- What's wrong with "mount a running horse"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:45, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Besides Ericoides :
- I want to mount my horse at a run but I don't still choose which one"
- I'll go to the Kentucky Derby. I want to mount a horse at the run"
- Mounting a running horse is dangerous
Anyway the correct locution for a horse competition is "horse racing" not "horse run"--Pierpao (talk) 08:59, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Who said anything about a horse competition? --Viennese Waltz 09:06, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- This,[2] for example, although it's more of a slow trot than a gallop. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- "Vault-on" seems to be the phrase. Alansplodge (talk) 11:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- (e/c) Part of the problem here is that, although it can certainly be used informally, horses generally are not said to "run" - they walk, canter, gallop, etc. See horse gait for details (though the word 'run' or 'running' is sometimes used to describe the more formal terms). The result is ambiguity - is the person running? The horse? Is 'the run' meant as a synonym for 'the race' (as above)? Matt Deres (talk) 13:29, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Nobody has mentioned the more likely meaning of running up to a stationary horse and leaping onto it. After all, it's nearly impossible to mount a horse that is running past. Akld guy (talk) 19:39, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, also helpful. Thanks. Ericoides (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- We have an article, Equestrian vaulting, the video clip attached to the article shows a woman doing the "nearly impossible". The section headed Competition movements describes "Vault On": "The vault-on leads to the frontways seat on the horse. After jumping on both feet, the right leg swings up immediately, as high as possible, lifting the pelvis higher than the head, while the left leg remains stretched down. The shoulders and hips are parallel to the shoulder axis of the horse. When the pelvis is at the highest possible point, the vaulter lowers the stretched right leg and lands softly, erect and centred in the seat astride with the upper body vertical". Alansplodge (talk) 13:37, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, also helpful. Thanks. Ericoides (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
He speaks no French/He doesn't speak French.
Are both sentences equivalent? Does one imply a higher degree or a different perspective?--Hofhof (talk) 13:27, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- I'd say they're basically equivalent. I might read the second one as allowing that he might be able to read or understand spoken French, but is not an adept enough speaker to manage oral communication himself. Matt Deres (talk) 13:32, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Interesting. In Spanish, there is Se habla español and Él habla español. I wonder if Él se habla español means anything or if it’s incorrect. Anyway, I get the impression that “he doesn’t speak French” may mean he may speak other languages, just not French, while “He speaks no French” may suggest that he may know French but doesn’t speak it at that moment or situation. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 14:58, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- I have to wonder if we're touching on a subtle regional difference (seeing as we've gotten responses from a Canadian and an Ohioan, and I'm from South Carolina).
- Most people I know would say "he doesn't speak French" to describe someone who:
- cannot speak or understand French.
- can understand but not speak French.
- may well be fluent in French but is currently refusing to speak it.
- And these can be distinguished simply by tone ("he doesn't speak French," "he doesn't speak French," "he doesn't speak French"). Most native speakers I know wouldn't say "he speaks no French," but if they did, it would describe someone who:
- cannot speak or understand French.
- can understand but not speak French.
- "He speaks no French" would be used to describe someone who might know French but refuses to speak it only with additional clarification ("when he's around his family, he speaks no French") or in a different tense ("he would speak no French," "he spoke no French"). However, I would expect non-native speakers to say "he speaks no French," especially if their first language is a one where where "(he) no speaks French" is correct syntax. "He speaks no French" is just the least amount of work to arrive at workable English.
- They're both used to mean that one is incapable of conversing in this article. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is an English nursery rhyme. Jack Sprat could eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean, so betwixt the two of them, they licked the platter clean. Likewise, “he speaks no French” almost follows the same sentence structure. So, the rhyme probably means Jack Sprat doesn’t eat fatty things. But, to be honest, when I made the above post, I understood and explained it in Mandarin. 他不会说法语 = He can’t speak French / He doesn’t know how to speak French. / He is unable to speak French. 他跟他家人说中文,不说法语 = He speaks Chinese, not French, to his relatives. The sentence “He speaks no French” is a bit unusual, so I attempted to translate into Chinese and tried to see what I got. 他说的话不是法语, but that involves interpreting the original as “His speech is not French”, which may imply he may know French but doesn’t speak it at the moment.140.254.70.33 (talk) 18:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Re the rhyme: true, but it reflects older forms of English, and poetry gets away with bending syntax to fit poetic forms. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:55, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is an English nursery rhyme. Jack Sprat could eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean, so betwixt the two of them, they licked the platter clean. Likewise, “he speaks no French” almost follows the same sentence structure. So, the rhyme probably means Jack Sprat doesn’t eat fatty things. But, to be honest, when I made the above post, I understood and explained it in Mandarin. 他不会说法语 = He can’t speak French / He doesn’t know how to speak French. / He is unable to speak French. 他跟他家人说中文,不说法语 = He speaks Chinese, not French, to his relatives. The sentence “He speaks no French” is a bit unusual, so I attempted to translate into Chinese and tried to see what I got. 他说的话不是法语, but that involves interpreting the original as “His speech is not French”, which may imply he may know French but doesn’t speak it at the moment.140.254.70.33 (talk) 18:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Hmm, I'm a bit surprised by others' responses. To me, He speaks no French is somewhat marked in English, and goes considerably farther in denying French competency than does He doesn't speak French.
- For example, someone who doesn't speak French might still be able to say parley voo Fransay? or comment tapple twa?, but someone who speaks no French couldn't even do that. --Trovatore (talk) 19:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Whilst agreeing with Trovatore's comments above, I might add that "speaks no French" or "eats no fat" would sound rather archaic in a spoken conversation in my opinion. It reminds me of Richard Carew (d. 1620) who when asking directions of Cornish people was answered "Meea navidna cawzasawzneck", meaning "I can speak no Saxonage", even though they spoke English perfectly well. [3] Alansplodge (talk) 19:39, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- I would go along with Trovatore's interpretation. I know a few French phrases (which most any educated English speaker could), so it would be incorrect to say I speak "no" French. But I can't carry on a conversation in French, so "I don't speak French" would be correct. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:45, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Technically correct, but we don't speak like that anymore (in London at any rate); it sounds a bit 18th century, as in "but me no buts". I've never heard a vegetarian say "I eat no meat", they usually go for "I don't eat meat". But maybe it's different in the US. Alansplodge (talk) 10:52, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- No, same in the US — that's why I said the "no" usage is marked. But if someone did use it, and I were trying to figure out why, I might come up with something like, maybe it's short for "he speaks no French at all". --Trovatore (talk) 10:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Harmony is restored. Alansplodge (talk) 13:30, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- No, same in the US — that's why I said the "no" usage is marked. But if someone did use it, and I were trying to figure out why, I might come up with something like, maybe it's short for "he speaks no French at all". --Trovatore (talk) 10:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Technically correct, but we don't speak like that anymore (in London at any rate); it sounds a bit 18th century, as in "but me no buts". I've never heard a vegetarian say "I eat no meat", they usually go for "I don't eat meat". But maybe it's different in the US. Alansplodge (talk) 10:52, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- I would go along with Trovatore's interpretation. I know a few French phrases (which most any educated English speaker could), so it would be incorrect to say I speak "no" French. But I can't carry on a conversation in French, so "I don't speak French" would be correct. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:45, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Whilst agreeing with Trovatore's comments above, I might add that "speaks no French" or "eats no fat" would sound rather archaic in a spoken conversation in my opinion. It reminds me of Richard Carew (d. 1620) who when asking directions of Cornish people was answered "Meea navidna cawzasawzneck", meaning "I can speak no Saxonage", even though they spoke English perfectly well. [3] Alansplodge (talk) 19:39, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Re. Edward Lear:
- "He reads, but he cannot speak, Spanish,
- He cannot abide ginger beer:
- Ere the days of his pilgrimage vanish,
- How pleasant to know Mr. Lear!"
- Ericoides (talk) 12:20, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
February 23
"I before e except after c"
There has been correspondence in the London Daily Telegraph over the past week about the application of this rule. It's been pointed out that it only applies when the diphthong is pronounced "ee" (although one woman commented "The rule has always made it difficult for me to remember how to spell my middle name.") The editor did, of course, print her middle name in full - Sheila.
On Tuesday a correspondent wrote:
There are, I believe, just six exceptions to the spelling rule ...
seize, surfeit, forfeit, counterfeit, protein and sheikh.
The fourth example I have only ever seen derived from a compound of the Portuguese verb fazer, "to make", "to do", whose past participle is feito (pronounced fay-too). However, my Chambers' dictionary (or Chambers's dictionary, as it describes itself), derives it from the Old French contrefet. This is the same verb - in modern French its past participle is fait, same as the third person singular, present tense. Chambers derives the second example from the same source - Old French surfait. Who is right here?
I would have added "skein" to the list, but apparently it rhymes with "vein", and also with the only pronunciation I have ever heard of the last word in the list, sheikh. That leads me to believe that the true number of exceptions to the rule is just two, "seize" and "protein". 86.2.21.152 (talk) 19:58, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- It's such a non-rule it's hardly worth troubling over, but for a list of exceptions see I before E except after C. - Nunh-huh 20:09, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- You can add weird to the list. The rule pretty much works as i before e except after c but with e before i when it sounds like neighbor or weigh, or like stein, and with i before e when the ci sounds like sh as in efficient. Loraof (talk) 21:47, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- "Sheikh" has often been pronounced "sheek", as in "Let me tell you 'bout Ahab the A-rab, the sheek of the burnin' sand..." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:21, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- See wikt:Category:English words not following the I before E except after C rule --Jayron32 03:24, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- As for the etymology of "counterfeit":-
- Merriam-Webster online says: "Middle English countrefet, from Anglo-French cuntrefeit, from past participle of cuntrefere, contrefaire to imitate, from cuntre- + faire to make".
- Oxford Dictionaries online says: "Middle English (as a verb): from Anglo-Norman French countrefeter, from Old French contrefait, past participle of contrefaire".
- Etymology Online says: "late 13c., from Old French contrefait 'imitated' (Modern French contrefait), past participle of contrefaire 'imitate,' from contre- 'against' (see contra-) + faire 'to make, to do' (from Latin facere 'to make, do', from PIE root *dhe- 'to set, put'). Medieval Latin contrafactio meant 'setting in opposition or contrast'".
- Alansplodge (talk) 11:07, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- As for the etymology of "counterfeit":-
February 24
Does "iT'D Really" have anything to do with a trill consonant?
I have never been able to do a proper Spanish rr trill consonant. Recently I noticed that saying "It'd really" seemed like it had something of a similar effect though, with t followed immediately by d, then backed up by r. Trying to make the same sound in Spanish words seems ... intermittently better than other attempts I've made, I think. Is this anything related or just a delusion? Wnt (talk) 12:48, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- A lightly trilled "r" is formed pretty close to the way the "d" sound is formed. This fact is sometimes satirized when someone will say that some trait peculiar to Brits is "veddy English".[4] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:35, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, going from t to d makes it easier to trill the following r (for me at least). Dbfirs 14:28, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- No trace of a trilled "r" at all for this Cockney speaker though. Alansplodge (talk) 15:16, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Right. It's really more about the upper crust. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:57, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- No trace of a trilled "r" at all for this Cockney speaker though. Alansplodge (talk) 15:16, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- No, I don't normally trill the r either, but I can do, and might if I were speaking with great emphasis. Perhaps it's because I'm much nearer to the Scottish border. Shakespeare probably trilled his "r"s, but speakers of RP generally don't. Dbfirs 17:05, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- In some Spanish textbooks for English speakers, the Scottish "r" is used as a model for the double-r (not the single-r) in Spanish. Also the "ch" of "loch" for the guttural "j" sound. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:37, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- No, I don't normally trill the r either, but I can do, and might if I were speaking with great emphasis. Perhaps it's because I'm much nearer to the Scottish border. Shakespeare probably trilled his "r"s, but speakers of RP generally don't. Dbfirs 17:05, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Just a little hint that works for me: If I forget how to do a trilled r, I start singing Santa Lucia. Specifically venite all'agile/barchetta mia. For some reason I can do it in barchetta. That revives the muscle memory and then I can do it. --Trovatore (talk) 21:15, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
Amoo
Whereabouts in Africa would the surname Amoo come from? Rojomoke (talk) 15:11, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) According to It's all in a name - Ghana: "The GA tribe, which originates from the Accra region, speaks a language also known as Ga. These people do not normally use the day-of-the-week naming system. Children generally take their father's surname: commonly Ankrah, Dodoo, Lampitey or Oti. Males are often given the name Nii, while females are often given the name Naa. A second name is sometimes added to show the child's seniority in the family: Nii Aryee (second-born son), Nii Amoo (third-born son)".
- Not sure if this is pertinent to surnames though. Alansplodge (talk) 16:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- While some Africans have adopted the European concept of the family name, that is not traditional, It is not possible to assume that the second name of an African is a surname or family name in the sense that is used in Europe - not even if it happens to be the father's name as well. Wymspen (talk) 14:15, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Vae! Puto, deus fio
Suetonius, Vespasian 23. "Dear me, I think I'm becoming a god," as it's most commonly translated. Often called Vespasian's last words, and presented out of context as if to make light of emperors' vanity. But this passage is all about Vespasian's sense of humor, it's quoted right next to the Emperor's dick jokes and outwitting of money-grubbers. He was making fun of the portents of his coming death and of emperors' godly ambitions. And Suetonius doesn't present these as his last words. He doesn't mention his last words.
My translation of Suetonius' Caesars says 'When he first felt the onset of his illness he exclaimed "Alas! I think I'm becoming a god."' This only differs in the interjection and punctuation.
A Latin lesson book by my side quotes it as "Vae puto me deum fieri!" Was this from a different historian of antiquity? How many variations of this quote do we have, and how to they differ?
A response to a grammatical question on this topic on Reddit mentions a possibly-more-accurate quote: "There is no answer to this. Personally I think the text is corrupted, and if you look at an apparatus criticus you will see that the manuscripts have variations, some with ut (but no subjunctive). I think it might have originally read at, puto, inquit, deus fio. This "ab, puto/credo" combo is rare but shows up in Ovid in such a configuration, often with incredulity." I don't know if this commentor is a scholar.
-Is the most common translation the "best" one?
-Is "Vae puto deus fio" grammatical?
-Is it a slightly deeper kind of joke, with "Vae puto deus" as the setup, and "fio" as the punchline? My Latin dictionary secondarily defines "puto" as to 'recognize (gods)' so would "vae puto deus" be a pious-sounding 'Oh my, I see the gods' then you throw in "fio" and it's an impious joke? 2601:1C1:8100:900:8CA:15B1:ADFB:DF14 (talk) 17:23, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- I don't know anything about the text, but "Vae puto me deum fieri" displays accusative and infinitive syntax, while "Vae puto deus fio" doesn't make too much sense as a single sentence (as far as I can see) without some conjunction inserted between the second and third words. AnonMoos (talk) 09:39, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- "Vae puto me deum fieri!" is "proper" Latin, like saying "I think that I am becoming a god" in English, but surely some modern scholar was horrified at the apparently poor grammar and corrected it. Proper grammar for written texts and the way people actually speak are quite different, in English and in Latin. He's just saying two things, "deus fio, puto", "I'm becoming a god, I think", not speaking with absolutely impeccable grammar. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:04, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Nothing with punctuation is "proper" first century Latin. You have to make a guess at the emphasis. Wymspen (talk) 14:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Word for not lesbian, or not gay man
Does English have a word for all who are not lesbian women? Or, for all who are not gay men? --Hofhof (talk) 23:11, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- For the first, perhaps, nonlesbian or non-lesbian.[5] Can't think of one for the second. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:28, 24 February 2018 (UTC) (e/c) non-gay is a word, apparently [6] but "gay" is sometimes used for men and women. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:35, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- (Edit conflict) The question implies that there is one single definition for lesbian, and one single one for gay, against which the other state of being can be opposed. In fact, those articles show that the terms are contested and contingent. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 23:32, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- The word you're looking for is "straight". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:12, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Only if he or she specifically wants only heterosexuals, but the question for whatever reason stressed "all" others. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Then it's "straight or bi". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:26, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Which is not an answer, since the OP wanted a single word not a phrase. --Viennese Waltz 08:42, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Let's see you do better. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:45, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Which is not an answer, since the OP wanted a single word not a phrase. --Viennese Waltz 08:42, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Then it's "straight or bi". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:26, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Only if he or she specifically wants only heterosexuals, but the question for whatever reason stressed "all" others. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Androphile and gynophile seem somewhat useful here, though not for both sexes at once. Also reading [7] I get the feeling that they are now being used for "gay" rather than "gay or bi" or "straight or bi" per sex but I don't know. The language in this area seems harsh on word logic, I mean, properly speaking I'd think you should be able to say a Boy Scout troop is "homosexual" because its members are all the same sex, but that doesn't seem on the table. I was also thinking heterophile, which comes up but not aside homophile, instead isophile, in this source [8] "The defined effects and outcomes of first sexual experiences (whether autophilic, isophilic, or heterophilic) will shape individuals' conceptions of themselves as sexual beings. Autophilic, or masturbation, experiences may become the dominant focus of the individual's sexual behavior. Isophilic, or homosexual, experiences may predominate, and in this case the individual does not transfer his or her sexual appetite and self-conceptions to behaviors that will lead to intercourse with members of the opposite sex, as is the case for heterophilic actors..." [this quote is complete balderdash by the way; from childhood I remember it's all pheromone-driven long before any behavior is relevant] Wnt (talk) 14:19, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
February 25
Anna-Padna Karina?
I was looking for an audio pronunciation clip of the name "Anna Karenina" and File:Л.Н.Толстой. Анна Каренина. Радиоспектакль МХАТ, 1937.ogg looked promising. It seems to say the name about 4 seconds into the audio. But listening more carefully, it actually seems to say something like "Anna-Padna Karina". What's going on, i.e. what's it actually saying? Thanks. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 08:48, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- It's Анна Аркадьевна Каренина (Anna Arkadyevna Karenina), including her patronymic. --194.213.3.4 (talk) 09:34, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks! I played the audio again after reading that, and I still can't make out most of the syllables. I guess it's like "skidiz" in French, where all the phonemes from a longer phrase have gotten smushed together. Oh well ;) 173.228.123.121 (talk) 09:47, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Indeed, phonetically it's more like anna-rkadina karenina, illustrating the typical reduction of unstressed syllables. --194.213.3.4 (talk) 11:23, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks! I played the audio again after reading that, and I still can't make out most of the syllables. I guess it's like "skidiz" in French, where all the phonemes from a longer phrase have gotten smushed together. Oh well ;) 173.228.123.121 (talk) 09:47, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Advertising copywriter needing some coaching?
An advertisement in Monday's Daily Telegraph contains the following sentence:
Today, we head along the coast to Caernarfon and join the narrow-gauge Welsh Highland Railway to Porthmadog, where we coach to Portmeirion for a guided tour.
"Coach" functions as a verb when it means "educate". Is the sense in which it is used here completely novel? 86.131.187.242 (talk) 12:33, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- According to EO, "coach" as in "to convey in a coach" has been around for 400 years, whereas "coach" as in "tutor" turned up in the mid 19th century.[9] ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:11, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the OED (from where Etymonline often gets its information) gives the first use of coach as a verb meaning to convey in a coach in 1612, whereas the first recorded use of coach meaning to instruct is by Thackeray in 1848. The OED entry has not yet been updated for the Third Edition, so it's possible that an earlier usage has been found since the Second Edition. Dbfirs 16:28, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- It is a rather old-fashioned usage. What really upsets me about that sentence is the use of "where" instead of "from where" or "whence". DuncanHill (talk) 16:31, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Would you prefer the even more archaic encoach? (Sorry, I actually agree with your analysis of the usage.) Dbfirs 16:36, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- It is a rather old-fashioned usage. What really upsets me about that sentence is the use of "where" instead of "from where" or "whence". DuncanHill (talk) 16:31, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the OED (from where Etymonline often gets its information) gives the first use of coach as a verb meaning to convey in a coach in 1612, whereas the first recorded use of coach meaning to instruct is by Thackeray in 1848. The OED entry has not yet been updated for the Third Edition, so it's possible that an earlier usage has been found since the Second Edition. Dbfirs 16:28, 25 February 2018 (UTC)