Wikipedia:Community sanction noticeboard
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The community sanction noticeboard (CSN or VfB) was split off from Wikipedia:administrators' noticeboard/Incidents (ANI) in February of this year in response to the imaginary problem of lack of a centralized discussion page for community-related issues. It seemed like a good idea at the time, though, and I was one of the initial supporters of the page. As the page focused in on behavioral sanctions, it was moved to the current name.
Since that point it has, well, deteriorated: some CSN bans are discussed for less than a day; many are assented to with simple "support" votes (no wonder "votes for banning" is a common nickname); discussions have less than a half dozen participants (how this could possibly be construed as consensus for something as major as revoking a user's editing privileges, indefinitely, escapes me); discussions to ban are started by people who are in editwarring with the person they propose the banning of, and this isn't even noted (AN/I reports get a lot more research going into them, especially regarding the involvement of the user making the complaint).
This page was first nominated for deletion for much the same reasons in May, and we ended up with a no-consensus close. The closer, Phaedriel, recognized that the page had issues (as did all those in favor of deletion and many of those in favor of keeping), and suggested reform to address these. It was a completely reasonable suggestion, and some reform was attempted, as can be seen in the archives; similar to the Esperanza issue, however, reform-minded discussion largely tapered off, and I don't think there have been any changes. The following issues are present, and are my basis for nominating this for deletion again:
- Excessive speed in the banning of users. In many cases the end result is the right one, so no harm is done by rushing it. But this is not always the case. Let's not forget that bans proposed in the East Asian and Australian morning and closed by night there miss out on nearly everybody in North America, and vice versa. One amazing example: [1] to [2], or five hours and eleven minutes. I can't possibly be the only who finds that rather unfair to a longtime user, disruptive though he may be.
- Simple voting is apparent just by scanning the archives, so I won't bother listing diffs. One example is the Ferrylodge ban, particularly this section. Voting is pervasive, and frequently takes the place of discussion.
- Dialogue is split up, leading to parallel discussions on the same issue. I don't think I have to explain how annoying and useless this practice is. Why can't we just let discussions finish where they started? Examples of pointlessly forked discussions: AN/I/CSN, AN/I/CSN
- And finally, many people just won't see the discussions. This page is far less widely watchlisted and even known than AN/I. Votes comprise the same users. It isn't a small amount, as there are more than a dozen regulars. But this is nevertheless tiny in comparison to the people who participate in AN/I discussions. Banning someone, particularly longtime contributors, should be a decision undertaken by consensus of the community; the community, ironically, does not frequent the "community" noticeboard.
I foresee the following arguments in favor of keep:
- Reform will work.
- No, it won't. Adjusting the page to deal with the problems has been was tried and failed. The concept of voting on bans is rotten at the core, and slicing a few brown spots off the edges does not make it better. Esperanza couldn't reform, and I'm afraid CSN won't be able to either.
- The issue is the voters and how they vote, not the page/process itself.
- The distinction is meaningless. As long as this page exists, the same small group of users is going to open discussions, participate in discussions, and close discussions. Any attempt at reform
- CSN gives the community more of a say in bans than AN/I
- The amount of users who participate in discussions is far smaller than on the incidents noticeboard. The naming is really the problem here - AN/I is widely used community process, which dozens of admins and non-admins edit every day. It is recognized as the place to report incidents and discuss how to deal with them. CSN, while nominally a "community" process, has swept discussions to ban out of sight of most of the community. AN/I, while nominally for admins, brings in a large variety of people.
- Moving discussions about bans and paroles back to AN/I will crowd it.
- There is less than one vote to ban per day. Insignificant in the scheme of things.
- It isn't a vote; it's a discussion. It even says so in the header!
- The header is inaccurate; just as people ignore the header and make irrelevant commentary on Talk:Main Page, people ignore the header and vote at CSN. There are indeed some real discussions, where consensus is formed. This is reminiscent of how bans were formulated and assented to at AN/I, and how they can be. And then there are some "discussions" that are as far from a vote as requests for adminship is. Note the periodic Supports and Endorses (often the whole body of someone's comment). Walton, an admin who supports CSN, agrees it is a vote and makes my point for me quite well (albeit from the complete opposite side of the issue)
I do not propose reform; reform was tried and failed. I propose deletion, as the failings of this board are incapable of being rectified. CSN's positive functions can be easily reabsorbed by AN/I, where productive, extended discussion happens frequently, while the voting mentality and speedbanning can be dropped. Resuming these discussions at AN/I will also provide much wider oversight, to ensure discussions remain discussions and to ensure a small group of users do not disproportionately influence the outcome. Thank you for reading through all of that. Picaroon (t) 03:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)