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::None of your sources are written by Safavid experts. I can also quote 157 sources that says "Safavid Persians" [http://books.google.com/books?q=%22Safavid+Persians%22]. |
::None of your sources are written by Safavid experts. I can also quote 157 sources that says "Safavid Persians" [http://books.google.com/books?q=%22Safavid+Persians%22]. |
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However, look at the third source you brought, it is about their Turkocmen followers not Safavids. Roger Savory has written more than 100 aritcles and books on Safavids. "From the evidence available at the present time, it is certain that the Safavid family was of indigineous Iranian stock, and not of Turkish ancestry as '''it is sometimes claimed.'''" (History of Humanity-Scientific and Cultural Development: From the Sixteenth to the Eighteenth Century", Taylor & Francis. 1999). Why can't you quote any Western Safavid expert that agrees with you? Mathee says the same about their Kurdish origin. Kathryn Babayan (another Safavid expert) states:" Kathryn Babayan, Mystics, Monarchs and Messiahs: Cultural Landscapes of Early Modern Iran , Cambridge , Mass. ; London : Harvard University Press, 2002. pg 143: “It is true that during their revolutionary phase (1447–1501), Safavi guides had played on their descent from the family of the Prophet. The hagiography of the founder of the Safavi order, Shaykh Safi al-Din Safvat al-Safa written by Ibn Bazzaz in 1350-was tampered with during this very phase. An initial stage of revisions saw the transformation of Safavi identity as Sunni Kurds into Arab blood descendants of Muhammad.”". Now who are the authors of your sources with regards to Safavid studies and how many publications they have on history of the area and Safavids? Still you have a section "Turkish component" and you can put whatever source you want, since your refusal to accept Safavid scholars has lead to the present situation. Encyclopedia Islam (Brill) clearly states the concensus is Safavids where from Kurdistan. However it is you that has made the article low quality, because when someone like Savory states: "From the evidence available at the present time, it is certain that the Safavid family was of indigineous Iranian stock, and not of Turkish ancestry " you go quote an out of the blue source like "History of Iranian literature". Look at another source you brought: [http://books.google.com/books?id=esnWJkYRCJ4C&pg=PA115]. It is called '''Firearms''' (a general book on firearms). So I think it is obvious who is pushing nationalistic POV and finding any non-expert source to claim anything. And yes complaining against Iranian nationalism while being blocked multiple times, under two arbcomm, under 1rr striction and also topic banned from some Armenian related articles does not really make you neutral user. Feel free to add those sources to the Turkish section on Safavids, no one has deleted them. Wikipedia is generally about [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:verifiability]]. So go ahead and put a source on firearms and Iranian literature on the origin of Safavids in the Turkish component section. However those sources such as "firearm", "Iranian literature" (general book on 1200 years of Iranian literature" and etc. are not really Safavid related books. Safavids experts are Savory, Mathee, Babayan, Melville, Roemer, and etc. --[[User:Nepaheshgar|Nepaheshgar]] ([[User talk:Nepaheshgar|talk]]) 23:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
However, look at the third source you brought, it is about their Turkocmen followers not Safavids. Roger Savory has written more than 100 aritcles and books on Safavids. "From the evidence available at the present time, it is certain that the Safavid family was of indigineous Iranian stock, and not of Turkish ancestry as '''it is sometimes claimed.'''" (History of Humanity-Scientific and Cultural Development: From the Sixteenth to the Eighteenth Century", Taylor & Francis. 1999). Why can't you quote any Western Safavid expert that agrees with you? Mathee says the same about their Kurdish origin. Kathryn Babayan (another Safavid expert) states:" Kathryn Babayan, Mystics, Monarchs and Messiahs: Cultural Landscapes of Early Modern Iran , Cambridge , Mass. ; London : Harvard University Press, 2002. pg 143: “It is true that during their revolutionary phase (1447–1501), Safavi guides had played on their descent from the family of the Prophet. The hagiography of the founder of the Safavi order, Shaykh Safi al-Din Safvat al-Safa written by Ibn Bazzaz in 1350-was tampered with during this very phase. An initial stage of revisions saw the transformation of Safavi identity as Sunni Kurds into Arab blood descendants of Muhammad.”". Now who are the authors of your sources with regards to Safavid studies and how many publications they have on history of the area and Safavids? Still you have a section "Turkish component" and you can put whatever source you want, since your refusal to accept Safavid scholars has lead to the present situation. Encyclopedia Islam (Brill) clearly states the concensus is Safavids where from Kurdistan. However it is you that has made the article low quality, because when someone like Savory states: "From the evidence available at the present time, it is certain that the Safavid family was of indigineous Iranian stock, and not of Turkish ancestry " you go quote an out of the blue source like "History of Iranian literature". Look at another source you brought: [http://books.google.com/books?id=esnWJkYRCJ4C&pg=PA115]. It is called '''Firearms''' (a general book on firearms). So I think it is obvious who is pushing nationalistic POV and finding any non-expert source to claim anything. And yes complaining against Iranian nationalism while being blocked multiple times, under two arbcomm, under 1rr striction and also topic banned from some Armenian related articles does not really make you neutral user. Feel free to add those sources to the Turkish section on Safavids, no one has deleted them. Wikipedia is generally about [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:verifiability]]. So go ahead and put a source on firearms and Iranian literature on the origin of Safavids in the Turkish component section. However those sources such as "firearm", "Iranian literature" (general book on 1200 years of Iranian literature" and etc. are not really Safavid related books. Safavids experts are Savory, Mathee, Babayan, Melville, Roemer, and etc. --[[User:Nepaheshgar|Nepaheshgar]] ([[User talk:Nepaheshgar|talk]]) 23:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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If Nepaheshgar is involved, that's an instant warning sign that crank fringe theories are being pushed somewhere... -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 23:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC) |
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== [[Jim Tucker]] == |
== [[Jim Tucker]] == |
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- Please . Thank you!
This article on a virtual organization devoted to pseudoscience and connected with self-publicist Ruggero Santilli has been recently created. My own view is that it should be changed into a redirect to the Santilli article. It is one of the worst pseudoscience articles I have seen and I think seems to have been posted by one of those involved in this virtual organization. One of the other people mentioned is Myron Evans whose BLP has been deleted at his request. It was listed for speedy deletion, but the creator Webmaster6 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who also created a speedily deleted article about another non-existent organisation The Alpha Institute for Advanced Study, improperly removed the prod template and the template requesting reliable secondary sources. Franceso Fucilla has certainly edited the article and the talk page as 86.155.96.66 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), because his characteristic rants can be seen there. Mathsci (talk) 14:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Dear!! MaDski !! http://www.telesio-galilei.com/theDarkCaseOfWikipedia/wikipedia00.html 86.158.11.60 (talk) 19:40, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
A new editor is adding a section to this article which I believe is undue and not reliably sourced. More eyes please. Thanks, Verbal chat 11:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Improving edits (MoS edits, removal of puffery) are being blindly reverted, in my opinion. Citation requests and POV tags are also being removed in the edit warring. I'd really like more editors to take a look. The problem at the moment centres on one section giving undue weight to one case published in one book. Verbal chat 19:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
A.K.Nole disputing fringe science involvement
There has been a posting on this page about the AfD for the now deleted Telesio - Galilei Academy of Science. I posted a link to a video above which shows that Jeremy Dunning-Davies is an active supporter and advocate for the work of Ruggero Santilli. He is also directly involved in this institute. A.K.Nole (talk · contribs) is now claiming that it is inappropriate, even contentious, to draw reference to the fact that Dunning-Davies is a public web advocate for Santilli and fringe science. I'm not quite sure what is irking this recently arrived user, but in this case fringe science advocacy seems completely clear cut. This video of JDD singing the praises of Santilli's new science apparently cuts no ice with A.K.Nole. I am posting here to get other opinions on whether JDD is directly involved in fringe science, in particular the pseudoscience organisations connected with Santilli, Myron Evans and Franceso Fucilla which are quite apparent in this video. Mathsci (talk) 22:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have in addition listed Jeremy Dunning-Davies for deletion here. This should supersede any discussion here. Mathsci (talk) 22:51, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
- I dispute Mathsci's presentation of this case. I am not an advocate for fringe science. What I am advocating is the proper application of WP:BLP to this article. The sentence in question was Dunning-Davies is also connected with web organisations devoted to fringe science, in particular "hadronic mechanics", the subject invented by Ruggero Santilli supported by a link to the web page Administrative board of the Teleseo-Galilei Academy of Science http://www.telesio-galilei.com/board.html Administrative board of the Teleseo-Galilei Academy of Science. I maintained that "connected with fringe science" is a contentious description of a living person and further that it is poorly sourced. One link to one organisation does not support the plural "organisations". The source does not self-describe as fringe science, that is Mathsci's synthesis. The source is primary, not a reliable secondary source. The connection with Santilli is not seen in the source and must be Mathsci's original research: it is certainly a coatrack. Mathsci airly refers to other sources, such as a video, which he has refused to cite in discussion or in the article. All in all, this does not meet the high standards of BLP.
- Mathsci asks rhetorically what is irking this user. What irks this user, as he knows full well [1], is Mathsci's attempting to assert ownership over this article, riding roughshod over Wikipedia policy and last but not least Mathsci's bullying attitude.
- The issue is not whether Dunning-Davies is connected with fringe science: it is whether this has been established to the standards BLP policy. A.K.Nole (talk) 06:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- There are various pieces of information available, the most important being the presence of Dunning-Davies on the two websites attached to Santilli. These change every few months, I suppose because there are disagreements between Santilli, Myron Evans, Fucilla and possibly Dunning-Davies. However, at present Dunning-Davies is listed on the website. The other information can be found in the articles Dunning-Davies writes promoting Santilli's iso-mathematics and geno-mathematics (which is some of the worst pseudoscience out there). There is also the video above and other videos showing Dunning-Davies at the award ceremonies. If Dunning-Davies has publicly let it be known that he is attached to such institutions, which by their very nature are not recorded or recognized by any mainstream academic institution, this is unfortunately all we can go on. My personal feeling is that Dunning-Davies, or for that matter Ruggero Santilli, do not have sufficient notability to have BLPs on WP, except for their fringe science/pseudoscience notability/notoriety, Since fringe science and pseudoscience are reported on wikipedia, BLPs of this type will always generate this type of difficulty. The problem is often that these people or their cronies are the originators of these BLPs; the subjects are often shameless self-publicists. Another example is Florentin Smarandache, who again is connected with the same circle of fringe physicists. There is no original research or synthesis here:
“ | Dunning-Davies is also connected with web organisations devoted to fringe science, in particular "hadronic mechanics", the subject invented by Ruggero Santilli. | ” |
- Perhaps A.K.Nole was unaware that this BLP is periodically edited by people like Francesco Fucilla, so it is under constant watch. WP:OWN doesn't come into this. The problem is to avoid wikilawyering instead of using the normal sources for fringe science or pseudoscience, which by the nature of the subject are problematic. One example of how to deal with this is Einstein–Cartan–Evans theory. Mathsci (talk) 09:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- "There is no original research or synthesis here". Excuse me? Does Mathsci really believe that the reader will go a series of (uncited) web sites, somehow know that they are attached to Santilli, then read and somehow understand papers on advanced physics and mathematics? Of course not, that's what Mathsci did, and that's OR and SYNTH. How does Mathsci's text and his explanation here not violate WP:OR: All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors? How can an article requiring such a lengthy explanation not violate Do not put together information from multiple sources to reach a conclusion that is not stated explicitly by any of the sources? How does Mathsci not violate drawing on their personal knowledge without citing their sources? How does the text not violate WP:BLP: Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association?
- Let me be quite clear. I do not know and make no assertion about whether Dunning-Davies is mainstream, fringe, or off the map (contrary to the misleading section heading chosen by Mathsci). I say that no acceptable reliable secondary source has been adduced for any such assertion. I say that this article is a clear violation of BLP and I say that Mathsci has failed in the obligation to be able to demonstrate that such material complies with all Wikipedia content policies and guidelines. This is not wikilawyering, it is core policy. A.K.Nole (talk) 16:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- The rhetoric is getting a bit heated on all sides -- let's turn down the temperature, can we? I agree that the sentence in question creates a weighting issue even if it is correct, but since the article appears to be on its way to deletion anyway, this is not a problem of vast urgency. Looie496 (talk) 16:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- Try Wikipedia:FRINGE#Reporting on the levels of acceptance. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps some time in the future A.K.Nole might develop a better understanding of the academic world of science and the British university system. His remarks seem completely clueless at the moment.
- My own personal feeling is that it is better just to have articles on specific topics in fringe science/pseudoscience, provided that they have already been properly assessed in the mainstream literature by recognized academics. Unfortunately it is often the case that the flawed science can be spotted by an average undergraduate, so, with errors that bad, there is no a priori guarantee of suitable scientific criticism. BLPs on the people involved are probably not the way to go. This is just my own WP experience with this type of fringe science. Mathsci (talk) 21:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have made the points I wished to and Mathsci does not address them. I leave it to other readers of this page to decide whether the first paragraph of the posting above is anything other than a personal attack. A.K.Nole (talk) 06:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- To A. K. Nole: I would call it more of an unfavorable characterization with respect to editing the article. Wiki requires a thick skin.
- I will comment on the AfD. Awickert (talk) 06:57, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's very hard for me to WP:AGF with A.K.Nole (talk · contribs) after his undisguised attempt at WP:BAITing on my own talk page . [2] Any more silly remarks of this nature and A.K.Nole could find his editing privileges curtailed. On the other hand that kind of foolish edit tells us quite a bit about A.K.Nole. If he has any further comments, he should make them at Wikipedia:Usernames_for_administrator_attention, although at his own extreme risk. Mathsci (talk) 10:07, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- <off-topic>This unsourced and incorrect change to a redirect [3] shows that A.K.Nole is up to no good. The trademark he is thinking of is MathSciNet (note the captalization) already mentioned by me on the deletion page. OTOH, WP:DFTT. Yawn. </off-topic> Mathsci (talk) 10:32, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- MathSci's remarks are, as s/he admits, off-topic: s/he is demonstrably incorrect about the trademark issue. A.K.Nole (talk) 17:16, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- The username issue is utterly bogus. Raising such issues in order to gain points in a debate about something else is generally considered disruptive editing, if not stalking. You are advised to reconsider your approach here. Looie496 (talk) 17:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- The username issue and A.K.Nole's subsequent edits have now been raised at WP:ANI. The discussion here about fringe physics is completely independent of his machinations elsewhere on the wikipedia. I have simply stated that I cannot assume he is editing in good faith any more. There is no debate to be won or lost here to my knowledge. Mathsci (talk) 19:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- The username issue is utterly bogus. Raising such issues in order to gain points in a debate about something else is generally considered disruptive editing, if not stalking. You are advised to reconsider your approach here. Looie496 (talk) 17:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- MathSci's remarks are, as s/he admits, off-topic: s/he is demonstrably incorrect about the trademark issue. A.K.Nole (talk) 17:16, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have made the points I wished to and Mathsci does not address them. I leave it to other readers of this page to decide whether the first paragraph of the posting above is anything other than a personal attack. A.K.Nole (talk) 06:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- Try Wikipedia:FRINGE#Reporting on the levels of acceptance. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- The rhetoric is getting a bit heated on all sides -- let's turn down the temperature, can we? I agree that the sentence in question creates a weighting issue even if it is correct, but since the article appears to be on its way to deletion anyway, this is not a problem of vast urgency. Looie496 (talk) 16:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps A.K.Nole was unaware that this BLP is periodically edited by people like Francesco Fucilla, so it is under constant watch. WP:OWN doesn't come into this. The problem is to avoid wikilawyering instead of using the normal sources for fringe science or pseudoscience, which by the nature of the subject are problematic. One example of how to deal with this is Einstein–Cartan–Evans theory. Mathsci (talk) 09:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
TELESIO GALILEI AIAS REPLY to WIKIWAKOS!!! http://www.telesio-galilei.com/theDarkCaseOfWikipedia/wikipedia00.html 86.158.11.60 (talk) 20:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC) http://www.telesio-galilei.com/theDarkCaseOfWikipedia/wikipedia00.html
- Someone clearly HAS FAR too MUCH time on THEIR hands. (even reading 3 pages is contagious it seems) Dougweller (talk) 21:15, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I believe some undue weight is being given here to the theories of Graham Hancock. Other opinions? Kafka Liz (talk) 01:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
- I see no reference to Hancock in the Piri Res map article. Please specify. Simonm223 (talk) 16:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- This is the dif showing the Hancock stuff. Hiberniantears (talk) 16:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
"Islamic Republic is the same thing as Arab Republic"
Jaakobou (talk · contribs) has been trying to merge/add content about Arab republic into Islamic Republic, claiming that they're the same form of government.[4] Given that Arab Republic is a secular type of government, and Islamic Republic a religious type of government, and there are other major differences in terms of elected institutions etc, this is a violation of WP:Fringe, WP:OR, and WP:NPOV. I tried to explain this to him , but he reverted saying "not much difference. Arab republics also reliy heavily on Islamic code of laws and both systems are fake republics that share many trades". [5] The user is essentially advocating a fringe POV that the systems in Iran and Pakistan which combine elements of theocracy with elected institutions, are essentially "one and same" as the systems in Syria and Egypt which are more or less military dictatorships. --Kurdo777 (talk) 09:01, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, this is clearly nonsense. Take the example of the short-lived United Arab Republic of Egypt and Syria. That was supposed to be the first step towards a pan-Arab state. The concept "Arab republic" is about Arab nationalism, rather than Islam (and some leading Arab nationalists, e.g. the founder of Ba'athism Michel Aflaq, have been non-Muslims). On the other hand, you can clearly have Islamic republics which are not Arab. --Folantin (talk) 10:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
The problem is that Arab republic doesn't appear to be a valid article. How is "Arab republic" a form of government? I mean, I can understand that an Islamic Republic is a form of Republic based on Islamic values, but is then an "Arab Republic" a Republic based on characteristics of the Arab ethnicity or something?
I don't think so. An Arab Republic is simply a Republic which is located somewhere in the Arab cultural sphere. Just like the Federal German Republic is simply a Republic located in the German cultural sphere. Nobody would argue that "German Republic" is a term for a form of govermnent.
In other words, Arab republic should just be deleted. --dab (𒁳) 10:23, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- ...or be a disambiguation page. --dab (𒁳) 10:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have no objections to a disambiguation page or deletion of Arab republic. But the main issue, is Jaakobou's attempt to equate two totally different systems, on the Islamic Republic page [6], which is clearly WP:OR. "Arab republic" is basically the term that Egypt and Syria use for their type of government. It's suppose to be a republic, based on Pan-Arabist values, Nasser is the one who coined the term. It's usually a one-party system. Islamic Republic on the other hand, is a republic based on Islamic values (Pakistan) or ideology (Iran) with a complex political system. [7]. --Kurdo777 (talk) 10:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- Per my comments above, Jaakabou is completely wrong. I suspect this is some kind of spillover from the Israel-Palestine battlefield on Wikipedia (plus, obviously the effect of recent events in Iran). --Folantin (talk) 10:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC):::
- Folantin, with your constant comments like this (including on the recent arbitration page), it is you who is perpetuating the "battle." And by the way, has Jaakabou been notified of this discussion? 6SJ7 (talk) 11:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- Speak of the devil...So my suspicions were right. I have very little interest in the Israel-Palestine feuding on Wikipedia and have tried to avoid it as much as possible. However, if a small group of editors insist on spreading their fights to completely irrelevant pages then I will point this out. --Folantin (talk) 11:58, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- If your suspicion is that I have several of these noticeboards watchlisted and sometimes jump in when I notice something that seems interesting, then your suspicion is correct. Whatever other suspicions you seem to have, are not correct. I actually agree that the page in question should be a disambiguation rather than a redirect. As for the "Israeli-Palestine feuding", you are the one who brought it up. You were also the first person to bring up anything about another editor's motivations, rather than their edits. (See WP:AGF.) Between the arb page and this page (and maybe some others I haven't seen), you seem to be running around and accusing people whose opinions you disagree with of being part of "Israeli-Palestine feuding" (or on that other page, of being in your words, "pro-Israeli"), thus bringing up "the issue" in places where it hasn't been brought up previously. That seems pretty disruptive to me. 6SJ7 (talk) 17:22, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- Speak of the devil...So my suspicions were right. I have very little interest in the Israel-Palestine feuding on Wikipedia and have tried to avoid it as much as possible. However, if a small group of editors insist on spreading their fights to completely irrelevant pages then I will point this out. --Folantin (talk) 11:58, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- Folantin, with your constant comments like this (including on the recent arbitration page), it is you who is perpetuating the "battle." And by the way, has Jaakabou been notified of this discussion? 6SJ7 (talk) 11:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- Per my comments above, Jaakabou is completely wrong. I suspect this is some kind of spillover from the Israel-Palestine battlefield on Wikipedia (plus, obviously the effect of recent events in Iran). --Folantin (talk) 10:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC):::
- I have no objections to a disambiguation page or deletion of Arab republic. But the main issue, is Jaakobou's attempt to equate two totally different systems, on the Islamic Republic page [6], which is clearly WP:OR. "Arab republic" is basically the term that Egypt and Syria use for their type of government. It's suppose to be a republic, based on Pan-Arabist values, Nasser is the one who coined the term. It's usually a one-party system. Islamic Republic on the other hand, is a republic based on Islamic values (Pakistan) or ideology (Iran) with a complex political system. [7]. --Kurdo777 (talk) 10:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure about Jaakabou. But for the record, I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in Israeli-Palestinian conflict. My main concern is the factual accuracy of the Islamic Republic page. --Kurdo777 (talk) 12:22, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- This is
fuckingidiotic, since the people in Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan are NOT ARABS! It is quite possible to have an Islamic Republic without Arabs. In fact, it would theoretically be possible to have an Arab Christian Republic or an Arab Jewish Republic. See Jewish tribes of Arabia and Arab Christians. Edison (talk) 23:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I was only now notified of this conversation (pretty poor form) and I'd like to weigh in on the actual issue (btw, Israel-Palestine has nothing to do with it as well as the recent Iranian developments). Anyways, I'm fairly certain I took the time to explain it so that there would be no confusion and I can't understand the flawed presentation of my past discussion notes on my reasoning for including a seemingly differnt topic into the article. I'd like to ask fellow ediotrs to assume good faith (which seems hard to come by these days) and comment on content. JaakobouChalk Talk 00:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
On the subject: After noticing an editor changing the Iranian form of government from Islamic Republic to "dictatorship" I figured to give a look at the issue. The Islamic Republic gov. seems like an unclear one where each of the self declared Islamic Republics basically keep a similar concept of a fake self-declared republic which brings to mind the self declared Arab republics. The issue of whether the supreme leader is a religious figure or a monarch is irrelevant to an article that starts with the following text: "Islamic republic is the name given to several states in the Muslim world including... Despite the similar name the countries differ greatly in their governments and laws."[8] Personally, I figure that the "self declared X republic controlled by a supreme leader" issue connects the two terms far more than any arguments for differnt structures of power. In any event, agree with the joining of the terms or not, my combined version[9] is clearly better structured than the current mishmash article.[10]
With respect, JaakobouChalk Talk 00:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
p.s. there's nothing fringy about the theory that, in general, the Arab republics or the Islamic ones are not really free-elections type countries. I don't think it is neccesary to give articles about Syria's "elections" or any of the other mentioned states - although Pakistan could pass as some form of real republic whose main religion is Islam. Anyways, the article needs improvement, and structuring and I figured I'm constructing something that helps sort all the "republics". JaakobouChalk Talk 00:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why you keep pushing the line that "Arab Republic" and "Islamic Republic" are synonymous. Wikipedia is not the place for original research or your own theories about different forms of government. --Folantin (talk) 08:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- You're going to have to clarify where and when I stated that "Arab Republic" and "Islamic Republic" are synonymous" since I don't believe I have. I did, however, say that the two could appear on the same article where it is focused on the "supreme leader" and "self described as" - political structure of each of the states that use the terminology. Current article already makes a shallow WP:OR-type comparison between a couple 'supreme ruler'-"republics" which have few similarities in gov. structure and they are certainly not synonymous to each other. Anyways, I'd appreciate a clarification or a taking back of the inaccurate claim.
- Cheers, JaakobouChalk Talk 22:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- On the other hand, since it's all obviously a misunderstanding, how about if everybody just drops the whole thing? Looie496 (talk) 00:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, someone is persisting with their misunderstanding [11]. --Folantin (talk) 08:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- Eh, I'm still waiting on a location where I said they are synonyms. Let me know if you find a good diff to support that allegation. Meantime, I suggest you lose that axe you're grinding and try to contribute to a few wiki-articles.
- Warm regards, JaakobouChalk Talk 16:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, since you came up with the introductory phrase "Islamic republic or Arab republic" [12] in your proposed version which lumped the two concepts together, that suggests you see some sort of equation between them. The fact that nobody else here sees "Arab Republic" and "Islamic Republic" as belonging to the same article should be telling you something. --Folantin (talk) 17:34, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- I can read well. Several editors (including myself) think that the two are not the same. As for putting the two together into a single article - I actually see it happening with community consent sometime in the future. It only makes sense when the current article is a mess. JaakobouChalk Talk 09:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, since you came up with the introductory phrase "Islamic republic or Arab republic" [12] in your proposed version which lumped the two concepts together, that suggests you see some sort of equation between them. The fact that nobody else here sees "Arab Republic" and "Islamic Republic" as belonging to the same article should be telling you something. --Folantin (talk) 17:34, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- On the other hand, since it's all obviously a misunderstanding, how about if everybody just drops the whole thing? Looie496 (talk) 00:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Found this post on RSN, thought it might be of interest to people here "Just putting this out there, and hoping some more experienced heads can give it a look... This is the article for a controversial eligious movement based in the US but with communities around the world; article contains liberal citations from official website, and most edits with dissenting information are reverted by users who are also members of the community. I have little experience with editing Wikipedia and I'm hoping someone with an idea of what they're doing can intervene. Thanks - jaybird 71.169.155.237 (talk) 00:06, 19 June 2009 (UTC)" Dougweller (talk) 14:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'll keep an eye on the article. Will Beback talk 14:28, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm watching this one too, and I see that a lot of unreferenced and non-neutral has recently been added by a user claiming to be a former member. I've restored the earlier version. Kafka Liz (talk) 15:16, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
- My main concern with this article isn't fringe theories so much as the serious and sustained POV issues. Perhaps the POV notice board would be a good place for discussion.Simonm223 (talk) 17:14, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Peter Dobrev's theories on Bulgarians
An anonymous user user:168.7.241.58 (Thanks BalkanFever - I forgot to paste) is busy adding Fringe (nationalist) theories to early cyrillic, glagolitic alphabet and other pages to do with the origins of Slavic languages. These are all sourced to one site with text written by the Bulgarian economist Peter Dobrev. I have tried reverting, and explaining on their talk page, but I'm being ignored. Could someone please stop them? VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:10, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- To clarify it's 168.7.241.58 (talk). I also believe admin intervention is needed. BalkanFever 04:48, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Also, the article Bulgar alphabet was created today using the same source. It needs to be speedily deleted as fringecruft. I believe Deirdear (talk · contribs) who created it is the same person as the above IP. BalkanFever 05:07, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
we have an article on this class of crackpot theories, at Pre-Christian Slavic writing. Bulgar alphabet can be merged there. --dab (𒁳) 05:30, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- I've also asked here. He's annoying me.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I've issued a rangeblock. This may also be a good opportunity to review Ancient Bulgarian calendar. Bulgars#Iranian_theory and Nominalia of the Bulgarian khans. --dab (𒁳) 07:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Ok, 'thealogy' is ok, but 'Monotheasm'? Anyone know anything about thealogy? Dougweller (talk) 18:56, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
these are neologisms from New Agers with no clue about Greek. No problem as long as it remains clear that this is New Age / 2nd wave feminism terminology with no currency outside of these subcultures. --dab (𒁳) 08:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Basque this time
At Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, an editor (Arnaiz1) claiming to be M. Arnaiz-Villena is repeatedly deleting large amounts of sourced material, claiming he never said these things and that we're part of a conspiracy against him. Since they are stated either in his books or in the website of a foundation advertising his books, a foundation of which A-V is president, Arnaiz1 is obviously misrepresenting something. A-V's claims are pseudoscience, though because few people have bothered to review him and we don't have any sources using that word, the wording in the article has been downgraded to "fringe". A-V is the author of the Usko-Mediterranean BS that was deleted last month. For those of you who haven't heard of him, A-V is the greatest epigrapher in the history of humankind. It was him, not Champollion, who deciphered Egyptian hieroglyphs, which turn out to record Basque, not an Afrasiatic language. (The entire field of Egyptology is a scientific fraud.) Also, the use of Hittite in the reconstruction of Indo-European is a fraud, as Hittite is also Basque. And the Hammurabi code is not a legal code, but records Basque religious texts—Sumeriology and Assyriology are great scientific frauds. And Phoenician was not a Semitic language, but Basque, as were Minoan, Etruscan, and Elamite. His website advertises that Basque is also the key to deciphering the Indus, rongorongo, and the Mesoamerican scripts, as a neolithic Basque civilization spanned the globe. kwami (talk) 19:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think that A-V, if it is he, is denying that his theories are fringe. He's denying that he actually is the author of material published under his name. This raises really difficult problems that go beyond the scope of this board and impact on OR and BLP. It's a real nightmare. Paul B (talk) 12:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I just discovered a family of articles that look like they could do with some help from more editors, and it's right up our street. For other articles look at the contributions of the main author (cf Energy (esotericism). Verbal chat 20:29, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- I noticed that stuff a while back. A little investigation showed that this is a Russian/Ukrainian phenomenon, and that getting a handle on it would take more work than I wanted to invest. Definitely not very encyclopedic as it stands, though. Looie496 (talk) 15:40, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm taking this particular article to AFD. As it stands it is an OR fork; maybe the Ukrainians can get a section in the main article. Mangoe (talk) 16:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Also up for AFD is Information metabolism, the first pure case of a WP:COATRACK I've seen. Mangoe (talk) 17:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Someone who knows more about the Order of the Golden Dawn than I do should take a look at Tattva vision. Mangoe (talk) 18:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Also up for AFD is Information metabolism, the first pure case of a WP:COATRACK I've seen. Mangoe (talk) 17:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm taking this particular article to AFD. As it stands it is an OR fork; maybe the Ukrainians can get a section in the main article. Mangoe (talk) 16:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
We're going to need a bigger boat
Having looked at User:Rmcnew's response in the AFD, and looking through the voluminous and cranky/crankish material in Talk:Socionics (typology), I think everything relating to socionics needs to be considered for deletion. It's of course hard to get anyone to come to the point, but it begins to appear that this thing have no real traction even in Russian sources. I hate to put people through it, but I would ask some others to look at the discussion and confirm or refute my sense of this, in which case I'll withdraw the current AFD and put in something more comprehensive. Mangoe (talk) 04:23, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- Here is a list of primary related articles that I could find. Do note I am not advocating deletion, I am indexing everything that I could find which was related. Sifaka talk 02:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Socionics
- Socionics (typology)
- Socionics (esoterism)
- Information metabolism
- Ethical Intuitive Extrovert
- Ethical Intuitive Introvert
- Ethical Sensory Extrovert
- Ethical Sensory Introvert
- Intuitive Ethical Extrovert
- Intuitive Ethical Introvert
- Intuitive Logical Extrovert
- Intuitive Logical Introvert
- Logical Intuitive Extrovert
- Logical Intuitive Introvert
- Logical Sensory Extrovert
- Logical Sensory Introvert
- Sensory Ethical Extrovert
- Sensory Ethical Introvert
- Sensory Logical Extrovert
- Sensory Logical Introvert
- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
- The below contain some content related to socionomics. There are a considerable number of disambig pages or see also sections not listed here which contain links to socionomic material. Some of the below only have passing mentions others have more content.
- Aušra Augustinavičiūtė
- Antoni Kępiński
- Understanding - has a large section
- Physiognomy
- Maximilien Robespierre
- Personality psychology
- Personality type
- Brain types
- Extraversion and introversion
- Sociotype
- +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
- After several inquiries with the main author, I've concluded that there aren't any 3rd party sources, so the whole thing is up for deletion. Mangoe (talk) 03:27, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- "You hate to put people through it". Delete this page and you'll see Wikipedia go -SCHIZM-. I dare you to salt it. I dare you. You attack progress then progress will attack back. Tcaudilllg (talk) 02:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
This alternative medicine organisation was quoted as a major source of opinion on GM food, I've never heard of it and it doesn't even have a Wiki article. This seemed a violation of undue weight to me, so I've removed this section. This is being discussed here. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
This article is in desperate need of help. The positions of advocates are presented in flattering terms, while critics (or "skeptics") are dismissed ("unpeer reviewed") as laymen or nonexperts (because they aren't reincarnation researchers) and the substance of their criticisms isn't presented. A very problematic article with glaring WP:NPOV problems, caused by heavy reliance on non-RS fringe sources. Ownership is also apparent. Verbal chat 08:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- The self-published websites that Verbal is referring to as "critical" should not even be in the article at all. They are not peer-reviewed because they are amateurs, as opposed to the professors of psychiatry whose research they are reviewing. Mitsube (talk) 08:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- This is another claim I should have added: editors there are discounting the James Randi Educational Foundation as non-expert and self-pub. They classify it as a fringe source! However, this is not the criticism I am referring to above, though it is clearly relevant. Verbal chat 09:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Oh dear, JREF has done more to dispassionately investigate fringe issues than almost any other organization I can think of. The fact that they have frequently debunked these issues has been because of adherence to strict experiment protocols.Simonm223 (talk) 17:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yikes. Criticism of reincarnation shunted into a ghetto with little "rebuttals" added? Seems to violate WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. - LuckyLouie (talk) 10:55, 24 June 2009 (UTC) Did some fixing. - LuckyLouie (talk) 11:13, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Fringe content used/uses the Journal of Scientific Exploration. This was not questioned! Another interesting article where the lead seems slightly unbalanced. Verbal chat 11:22, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Note that at least some of the content in the article is plagiarized from Stevenson's obits in The Telegraph and the Washington Post. Compare:
In one case, a boy in Beirut spoke of being a 25-year-old mechanic who was thrown to his death from a speeding car on a beach road. According to several witnesses, the boy provided the driver's name, the location of the crash, the names of the mechanic's sisters and parents and cousins, and the people he went hunting with. These all matched the life of a man who had died several years before the boy was born, and who had no apparent connection to the boy's family.
with
In a fairly typical case, a boy in Beirut spoke of being a 25-year-old mechanic, thrown to his death from a speeding car on a beach road. According to multiple witnesses, the boy provided the name of the driver, the exact location of the crash, the names of the mechanic's sisters and parents and cousins, and the people he hunted with -- all of which turned out to match the life of a man who had died several years before the boy was born, and who had no apparent connection to the boy's family.
— [13]
and compare
Another case involved an Indian boy, Gopal, who at the age of three started talking about life in the city of Mathura, 160 miles (260 km) from his home in Delhi. He claimed that he had owned a medical company called Sukh Shancharak, lived in a large house with many servants, and that his brother had shot him after a quarrel. Subsequent investigations revealed that, some eight years before Gopal's birth, one of the owners of Sukh Shancharak had shot his brother. The deceased man was called Shaktipal Shara. Gopal was subsequently invited to Mathura by Shaktipal's family, where the young child identified various people and places known to Shaktipal.
with
A typical case involved an Indian boy, Gopal, who at the age of three started talking about his previous life in the city of Mathura, 160 miles from his home in Delhi. He claimed that he had owned a medical company called Sukh Shancharak, lived in a large house with many servants, and that his brother had shot him after a quarrel. Subsequent investigations revealed that one of the owners of Sukh Shancharak had shot his brother some eight years before Gopal's birth. The deceased man was named Shaktipal Shara. Gopal was subsequently invited to Mathura by Shaktipal's family, where the young child recognised various people and places known to Shaktipal.
— [14]
The Ian Stevenson also has some similar problems.
Secondly, the NYT obit has some useful quotes from Professor Leonard Angel of Stevenson's research, and mentions a Skeptical Inquirer article Angel wrote. Also see the references at the end of this Skepdic Dictionary. Abecedare (talk) 18:14, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Apparently Nature (journal) isn't a scientific journal, and it is dismissed as "popular magazine". I couldn't make this up. I'll note the copyright issues on the article talk. Verbal chat 19:01, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- I was going fix the lead where it prominently associates the University Of Virginia with the reincarnation research but leaves out that the college's Division of Perceptual Studies, a parapsychology department whose focus is ESP and the paranormal, actually conducted the studies. However the article now seems to have bigger problems as evidenced by tagging sprees and 3RR. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Apparently Nature (journal) isn't a scientific journal, and it is dismissed as "popular magazine". I couldn't make this up. I'll note the copyright issues on the article talk. Verbal chat 19:01, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- I concur. It appears that a single editor with an axe to grind is reverting anything that might challenge his position that the Stevenson research represents a sound scientific model. And is simultaneously insisting on inserting weasel words to discredit criticism. Simonm223 (talk) 20:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I made the edit, and now I'm going to give that kerfluffle a rest. Seeing a "This user believes in reincarnation" infobox on one editor's page makes me think it won't end well. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- To me there is an element of choosing one's battles. The editor who has been reverting every change to the article shows no signs of stopping and I just don't care enough to get into an edit war over this. I was looking at the history of the article and there were many, many reverts in a single day where other editors came in, changed something and then this one editor just immediately changed it back. He eliminated criticism of the stephenson study drawn from skepdic and restored rebuttals to criticism in his criticism ghetto. Not going to bother fighting him on this.Simonm223 (talk) 14:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think we should abandon this article. It is much improved already, despite the ongoing wp:advocacy, but there are still ongoing problems - such as refusal to accept RS that calls the field pseudoscience. Verbal chat 14:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- It shows that a single dedicated fringe advocate can successfully hold an article hostage by gaming WP:RS. Consider that to this day, the WP article about communicating with dead people through tape recorders remains free of the word "pseudoscience". - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- Doing a small experiment. Added a link to pseudoscience to the see also section of the 'evp' article, undisguised.Simonm223 (talk) 17:34, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- The article has 100% improved. To those who did it, your efforts are appreciated. - LuckyLouie (talk) 02:12, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
- It shows that a single dedicated fringe advocate can successfully hold an article hostage by gaming WP:RS. Consider that to this day, the WP article about communicating with dead people through tape recorders remains free of the word "pseudoscience". - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think we should abandon this article. It is much improved already, despite the ongoing wp:advocacy, but there are still ongoing problems - such as refusal to accept RS that calls the field pseudoscience. Verbal chat 14:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- To me there is an element of choosing one's battles. The editor who has been reverting every change to the article shows no signs of stopping and I just don't care enough to get into an edit war over this. I was looking at the history of the article and there were many, many reverts in a single day where other editors came in, changed something and then this one editor just immediately changed it back. He eliminated criticism of the stephenson study drawn from skepdic and restored rebuttals to criticism in his criticism ghetto. Not going to bother fighting him on this.Simonm223 (talk) 14:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Strangely nothing in Wikipedia addresses this issue, equally strange there exists debate about a known fact. I believe that this is the best venue regarding an editors ability to recognize conflicting references and without subjective interpertation dismiss demonstrably false references. It's a simple exercise with this example at the extreme obvious side of the spectrum.
A reference exists[15] and makes the specific claim that the term "grief porn" was coined on April 7, 2005. Prior use evidence of the term, in context, exists in both published fiction and non-fiction works and in the printed press dating many years back. [16][17][18][19]
Must Wikipedia be a slave to referenced errors, is there no level of editorial responsibility allowed? Is an error in a Blog, journal or paper notable in and of itself? Or must anything sourced be allowed inclusion as the standard is verifiability and not truth?
Is there truly not any level of demonstrably false information that can be removed?99.144.192.208 (talk) 19:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- There is no requirement that something be included just because it's in some source. If editors agree not to use a particular source, then they won't use it. Friday (talk) 19:14, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Battles over this sort of thing tend to be incredibly tenacious. I've had two cases where I had to track down high school yearbooks to refute newspaper errors and offhand remarks, and one case where I had someone in another state searching library stacks to prove that a referenced work did not in fact exist. The jury is still out on whether Herbert Hoover swore or affirmed the oath of office (circumstantial evidence says swore, some newspaper reports say affirmed). People don't seem to understand the notion that to be reliable, a source has to be correct. Mangoe (talk) 19:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- I am going to avoid the wall of text below, as I've seen these same arguments repeated at least a half-dozen times in the article discussion. The discussion from two different editors think that both sides can be stated to benefit the article, whereas this IP contributor here swears up and down that none of us understand the rules. tenacious isn't the word her; tedious is far more fitting. We have already pointed out several times that the usage of citations isn't an either.or arrangement but rather a 'however' arrangement (ie, this was reportedly done, but this contradicts that). It is a net benefit to the article to mention both as counterpoints to one another, allowing the reader to make up their own minds. From a practicality aspect, it prevents one citation from being periodically removed in favor of another (case in point, the anon did precisely that) - effectively destabilizing the article.
- The argument against the use of a reliable citation from a newspaper is put forth from an anon who admits they've edited under another account in the past, and there is a strong indication that this might be a sock of a banned or indef blocked user. Additionally, their edits are clearly tendentious and uncivil, and they are unwilling to discuss without making personal attacks. Thought that might better frame the inquiry of the person. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Battles over this sort of thing tend to be incredibly tenacious. I've had two cases where I had to track down high school yearbooks to refute newspaper errors and offhand remarks, and one case where I had someone in another state searching library stacks to prove that a referenced work did not in fact exist. The jury is still out on whether Herbert Hoover swore or affirmed the oath of office (circumstantial evidence says swore, some newspaper reports say affirmed). People don't seem to understand the notion that to be reliable, a source has to be correct. Mangoe (talk) 19:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm being told the following:
I appreciate what you are saying, anon, but I am not the person saying that he coined it; the cited article says that. You may disagree with that, but - unfortunately - you aren't a citable source that can be referenced in counterpoint.
Remember, you are not citable and cannot, on your own merits, be cited as counterpoint to any cited statement.
If there are citations that refute that, it doesn't mean that we purge or whittle away to nothingness the cited statements already present. We instead add the citations that counter the claim of invention. there is a limit to how far we can go to connect these contrary statements without running the risk of synthesis.
Also, I will again state that your opinion as to the "truth" of the citation isn't usable by us. Verifiability is the litmus test for inclusion, not truth. You don't get to prove or disprove the claims of a cited source. Do you not understand that?
We don't remove or water down the statements of a perfectly reliable source in favor of creating heat.
Okay, I am trying to help you understand Wikipedia here, anon99. First of all, the litmus for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. That isn't me saying that, that's policy. So, maybe stop arguing that we cannot include it because its "false", as that is immaterial to inclusion. Ask an admin. Hell, ask two. Secondly, just because the section of Guardian online is called the ObserverBlog doesn't actually mean it is a blog.
Lastly, the hardest part of Wikipedia for new editors is learning that their opinion is utterly worthless when it differs from that of a published source.
You cannot contradict a published source, as you (nor your opinion) are citably sufficient to do so.
I will again point out that this isn't a matter of "knowingly (using) false information"; it is a matter of verification; indeed, it is the very first line of that policy: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth"
as I noted before, just because the section is called the Observer Blog doesn't actually mean its a blog. You need to understand the difference between a blog and a news article. I simply do not have the time to educate you on this.
- The date given is an unsupported "Fringe theory", the reasoning entirely based upon policy and some strange view that my providing impeaching citations is as my fellow editor so clearly states: "unfortunately - you aren't a citable source that can be referenced in counterpoint". Strange. 99.144.192.208 (talk) 19:36, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- (ec) Yes, it's a serious problem of Wikipedia. Just today I had verifiability, not truth quoted at me by a very experienced editor. I believe the rules are in part optimised to deal with fringe and crackpot editors. We don't want endless discussions with them where they try to prove that the earth is flat so it can be stated in an article, or disprove evolution so that an article can no longer present it as true. Unfortunately that leads to situations where all editors agree that something is wrong, but a large minority insists that we claim it anyway because we have a source. We have WP:REDFLAG, but that again is also optimised for dealing with fringe. A very common problem seems to be factoids that are passed from one "reliable source" to another in a telephone game that can sometimes go over several centuries. Thus we get the situation where "reliable sources" tangential to a topic describe it in great detail, but omitting anything that could help to verify the information from archives, while more on-topic sources mention it only in passing because the author only writes what he could verify. I think WP:REDFLAG needs to be broadened to cover this situation; however, it's important to get the balance right to avoid its use for pushing fringe positions. Hans Adler 19:51, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Not to derail the RfC at the appropriate talk page but I'd like to chime in. Being an encyclopedia doesn't mean we don't have any false statements to any degree ever. In fact it behooves us to state the false so we may shed light on the subject. If we don't include this information then someone will find it, note that it's not in the article and edit the article to include it anyway. Then we argue over whether it's a reliable source and so forth. If we instead state outright that some paper has printed this but has since been shown to be incorrect then we don't have to worry about future editors and battles, the article can defend itself. This should not be seen as an endorsement of false statements, but you must address the false statements in order to refute them. Padillah (talk) 19:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Precisely the point i was making earlier. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Not to derail the RfC at the appropriate talk page but I'd like to chime in. Being an encyclopedia doesn't mean we don't have any false statements to any degree ever. In fact it behooves us to state the false so we may shed light on the subject. If we don't include this information then someone will find it, note that it's not in the article and edit the article to include it anyway. Then we argue over whether it's a reliable source and so forth. If we instead state outright that some paper has printed this but has since been shown to be incorrect then we don't have to worry about future editors and battles, the article can defend itself. This should not be seen as an endorsement of false statements, but you must address the false statements in order to refute them. Padillah (talk) 19:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Can this really be the policy of Wikipedia, as was stated above by the editor seeking inclusion of this false information: "It is a net benefit to the article to mention both as counterpoints to one another, allowing the reader to make up their own minds." This is after all a claim that a phrase was created on specific date, April 7, 2005. A date which is demonstrably false. [26][27] ,99.144.192.208 (talk) 20:38, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
OK, after reading the talk page where you guys have been discussing this: This is not about whether or not to present a statement known to be wrong as if it was true, it's about whether or not to present a statement known to be wrong while indicating as clearly as is possible without transgressing the "original research" restriction that it is actually wrong.
The demonstrably wrong claim appeared in the Observer Blog. Our standard rule seems to be that main entries in such a newspaper blog, which are signed by people who otherwise also write in the newspaper, count as reliable sources. [28] Thus it's misleading to refer to this as just a blog entry.
This leaves us with a situation in which the error can be reported with proper framing as such, or simply dropped. In other words, as so often the rules don't tell us what to do and it's a matter of WP:Editorial discretion. The following two criteria are potentially worth considering:
- How wide has the error been disseminated? If a lot of people believe in the incorrect information, it makes sense to mention it and to indicate why it is wrong. If not, it doesn't seem to make much sense to include a random piece of random trivia and embarrass the author of the erroneous claim.
- Does it improve the presentation of the article if the information is included? Our best articles contain all noteworthy information, but they are also fleshed out with additional non-vital information.
Hans Adler 21:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The date, mention of the press conference, and even mention of the topic itself, are not known to exist anywhere else on Earth. Additionally as you are putting forth a suggestion for a possible framework for resolving False Statements of Fact would you be so kind as to visit the RFC at the grief porn[29] article and demonstrate a practical application of your framework to this real life example?
- Let me also ask a follow up question, am I understanding you to say that errors can sometimes be Notable and worthy of inclusion? If so, would the same standard exist - ie, would one require a supporting reference that noted the error and/or it's importance to our understanding of the subject? 99.144.192.208 (talk) 21:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Wait a second, are we sure this is a reliable source? Sorry, I don't have time to research this myself, so hopefully I'm not leading you on a wild goose chase but somewhere there's some verbage about the blog being subject to the newspaper's full editorial control. Can we confirm that this blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control? Another thing you might want to look into is this is apparently an Observer blog about the Observer. Is this a primary or a third-party source? Finally, have you considered e-mailing the author? He might issue a correction. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- (ec)Sorry, you might have been waylaid by the retititve usage of the citation by the anon, which would seem to indicate that there are dozens of other citations. There aren't; there are four. Additionally, it seems important to point out that there are no references calling the initial source from the Guardian Blog incorrect - that is solely the anon saying that. the citations he keeps repeating are instances in different fiction and non-fiction books where the term appears.
- The comment by the anon, "The date, mention of the press conference, and even mention of the topic itself, are not known to exist anywhere else on Earth" is clearly absurd. The Guardian is certifiably read by a large number of people in the UK and elsewhere, Not sure where that particular spin came from. As I siad, this anon is quite crafty, as their previous account might have been. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:22, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- (ec)Crafty? What an insulting remark. There is no simpler body of evidence to look at: Here is the link to the blog[30]. The edit:[31] and the proof that the claim is false.[32][33][34][35]
- The question is, "Was the term invented on April 7, 2005?". The answer is No - it has clearly been used in context in fiction, non-fiction and press for many years prior to that date. Crafty? Hardly.99.135.175.107 (talk) 22:30, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Even if we assume that this person is a newspaper reporter and not just a blogger, that's not a WP:RS-complaint reference to support the claim for when a term was invented. It may be reliable that the guy used the term, but not that he created it. For first use of terms we should refer to respected etymologists. DreamGuy (talk) 22:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- No, that is tangential to the issue. The article says that the term was coined by Yates, so we don't need an etymologist to take apart their statement. Indeed, that would be synthesis. What we have is a reliably-cited statement in a widely-read online source wherein the statement says one thing. We have other citations that do not say that the initial statement is false; they simply use the term prior to the date of supposed coinage. We state both to present a neutral article. For all we know, the statement was coined by Yates after Diana's death in '97, and was only reported to have been such in 2005. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:27, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Whether something is a reliable source or not is not tangential. The Observer blog can say whatever it wants, but it's not reliable for the specific topic in question, so it cannot be used to support that claim. An etymologist would NOT be synthesis, it'd be reporting what an expert on the topic said instead of someone who wouldn't be expected to know anything about what they were talking about. You've got everything completely and totally backwards from how Wikieepdia works. DreamGuy (talk) 23:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- If Orwell were alive today ... "We have other citations that do not say that the initial statement is false; they simply use the term prior to the date of supposed coinage." ...That's just Alice in Wonderland nonsense.99.135.175.107 (talk) 22:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Frankly, I was pointing out that you have represented the same four citations over and over again, purporting that they each claim ownership of the phrase grief porn, and I clearly pointed out that they do not. The only person calling them a "lie" is you. Now, since you - by your own admission - have edited here under prior IDs, you know better than to make disingenuous arguments. The article about Yates says they invented the term. There are prior instances of its usage. We point that out. Period. What is so hard for you to grasp about that? I am sorry, but your behavior is characteristic of WP:IDHT and using the wiki as a grudge match, and I am growing less interested in trying to help you understand and more inclined to simply ignore/report you. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 23:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- You put in your edit comment "losing my patience, suspecting that WP:IDHT might be the source of the problem", which, along with some of the comments above, is a violation of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Considering that you were already admonished at WP:WQA about violating policies regarding your behavior on this article towards me, it seems odd for you to think that you can act the same way toward another editor and that you would report them instead of the other way around. DreamGuy (talk) 23:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks DG, but I got it covered. As well, thanks for the permission to offer you unsolicited advice about your behavior everywhere I note a problem with it - thanks very much.
- And, as has been pointed out to you at your many, many noticeboard beat-downs, AGF doesn't mean overlooking bad behavior. As for civility and IDHT, I'm not the first person to point that out; the anon's behavior has been pretty awful during this. Anyway, maybe keep your opinions focused on the topic, DG. Anything else from you isn't going to help the situation. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- No, you don't "have it covered". You're right, AGF doesn't mean overlooking bad behavior, but what you regularly do is invent it up out of thin air in your own head and then expect the rest of the world to just accept your conclusion despite the lack of any sensible reasons or evidence. The topic here is that the source is clearly wholly unreliable, both as not being authoritative for the topic and clearly out and out wrong, and it's your inability to stay on topic when it means you have to admit you are wrong that has led to all the accusations and threats. DreamGuy (talk) 15:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- You put in your edit comment "losing my patience, suspecting that WP:IDHT might be the source of the problem", which, along with some of the comments above, is a violation of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Considering that you were already admonished at WP:WQA about violating policies regarding your behavior on this article towards me, it seems odd for you to think that you can act the same way toward another editor and that you would report them instead of the other way around. DreamGuy (talk) 23:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- None of the citations claim ownership of the phrase. They are example's of prior use, the movie review was from 2002 for example and was just a casual use of the phrase in the context.99.135.175.107 (talk) 23:13, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Right. This point might be moot, as there are others helping out in the article to find the correct avenue to pursue. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- Hardly "moot". We have a single editor that has made a suggestion, I'm not sure why you've made this effort to stifle input while the rest of the editors involved appear to be in the dormant cycle of a 24hr unit, but the larger policy question of confronting Demonstrably False Statements of Fact is decidedly not moot. 99.135.175.107 (talk) 07:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- Oops, you forgot to indent again - don't worry, I got it for you. As for the conversation being moot, it certainly wasn't an attempt to stifle anything - lol, are you ever going to stop trying to read my mind? You really aren't good at it. By all means, please continue the discussion. I only pointed out that the bone of contention that you forum-shopped here was apparently resolved, and met with your approval. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 07:40, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- Frankly, I was pointing out that you have represented the same four citations over and over again, purporting that they each claim ownership of the phrase grief porn, and I clearly pointed out that they do not. The only person calling them a "lie" is you. Now, since you - by your own admission - have edited here under prior IDs, you know better than to make disingenuous arguments. The article about Yates says they invented the term. There are prior instances of its usage. We point that out. Period. What is so hard for you to grasp about that? I am sorry, but your behavior is characteristic of WP:IDHT and using the wiki as a grudge match, and I am growing less interested in trying to help you understand and more inclined to simply ignore/report you. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 23:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- No, that is tangential to the issue. The article says that the term was coined by Yates, so we don't need an etymologist to take apart their statement. Indeed, that would be synthesis. What we have is a reliably-cited statement in a widely-read online source wherein the statement says one thing. We have other citations that do not say that the initial statement is false; they simply use the term prior to the date of supposed coinage. We state both to present a neutral article. For all we know, the statement was coined by Yates after Diana's death in '97, and was only reported to have been such in 2005. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:27, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- Even if we assume that this person is a newspaper reporter and not just a blogger, that's not a WP:RS-complaint reference to support the claim for when a term was invented. It may be reliable that the guy used the term, but not that he created it. For first use of terms we should refer to respected etymologists. DreamGuy (talk) 22:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Per WP:V, "Some newspapers host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control. Where a news organization publishes the opinions of a professional but claims no responsibility for the opinions, the writer of the cited piece should be attributed (e.g. "Jane Smith has suggested...")." Do we have any evidence that this blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:52, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
- No. It is a separate section that comingles staff members and blog contributors. It calls itself a blog,[36] looks like a blog with random short thought entries and does not read or format as the professional product found on the website outside the blog area. We also have first hand reliably sourced references that thoroughly impeach a major claim by the contributor, indicating a lack of fact-checking. Most importantly we do not have a supporting reference claiming that the blog is the same professional product as found in the Guardian and not formally tagged as "blog". 99.135.175.107 (talk) 14:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
My comment above was under the assumption that Arcayne actually supported this edit. Now it looks as if this wasn't meant seriously and Arcayne actually supports a position that I cannot agree with. In any case I think this edit is seriously worth considering under the framework that I described above. But reporting without comment a claim that we know to be wrong, just because it appeared in a reliable source, would not be OK. Hans Adler 15:17, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
This article has had longstanding major problems. The article was essentially taken over a couple years back and turned into a very calculated hack and slash job on the organization and its beliefs. It basically pushes the WP:FRINGE view that false memories of child abuse do not exist or are extremely exaggerated (exact opposite of all current expert knowledge on the topic) and strongly insinuates that the people who came up with the term (as well as anyone who believes it exists) are just child molesters covering up their crimes. Considering the direct accusations of pedophilia against specific named persons this article also has major BLP violations. DreamGuy (talk) 01:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- What efforts have you made to fix the problem yourself before coming here? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:30, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Arcayne, this is not the Inquisition. Cease this combative interrogatory, please. KillerChihuahua?!? 14:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Wow. That was sure a non sequitur. DreamGuy (talk) 23:07, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think this article is enough of a problem that anyone might legitimately ask for assistance. The material about abuse is all quite public & we have an article on the person accused; I see no direct BLP concerns. On the other hand, the information about this specific instance is disproportionate for an article about the organization. The POV is sneaky and the article needs rewriting. KillerChihuahua made a start; I continued. another person's look at the article history would be appreciated. Some of the information needs updating also. DGG (talk) 23:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
- Note that we have other articles relevant to this topic, including repressed memory and Recovered memory therapy. We should be careful to distinguish the organization this article is about (which I don't know anything about) from the topic in general. Looie496 (talk) 00:58, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think this article is enough of a problem that anyone might legitimately ask for assistance. The material about abuse is all quite public & we have an article on the person accused; I see no direct BLP concerns. On the other hand, the information about this specific instance is disproportionate for an article about the organization. The POV is sneaky and the article needs rewriting. KillerChihuahua made a start; I continued. another person's look at the article history would be appreciated. Some of the information needs updating also. DGG (talk) 23:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Well having read some of the stuff above about Stevenson and reincarnation I'm not exactly encouraged that I'm going to get much of a hearing, but I'll give it a shot anyway! There is a small disagreement about a couple of sentences toward the end of the Stevenson article;
Skeptics have questioned Stevenson's methodology and objectivity in drawing conclusions from his research,[6][7] and he was spurned by most academic scientists.[8] Stevenson himself recognized one limitation in his argument for reincarnation which Washington Post Staff Writer Tom Shroder termed a "glaring flaw": the absence of any evidence of a physical process by which a personality could survive death and travel to another body.[9]
I would argue that if a University has a research centre that publishes in peer reviewed journals, as Stevenson's does, then it is clearly embarking on a scientific journey. Part of Stevenson's stated goal was to add to scientific knowledge about a particular phenomenon and raise the status of his field of inquiry within the broader scientific project, and I am unaware of any accusations of fraud etc. So it strikes me that the first sentence quoted above starts well, but ends poorly. If there is any evidence that over 50% of academic scientists actively rejected Stevenson's work, then let's reference it. If not, the last part detracts from NPOV in my view. Additionally, one of Stevenson's complaints (?) is that his critics did not investigate the phenomenon themselves - as indicated by Tom Shroder [1]. It therefore strikes me as a triple whamy to use emotionally charged adjectives (spurned) in conjunction with dubious claims (most academic scientists) to give the impression that Stevenson had succeeded in getting others to embark on research but that his work had been found wanting.
My second observation is that in the second sentence it seems enough to point out that Stevenson acknowledged a limitation in his argument without the additional flourish of tagging it with the Tom Shroder quote of "glaring flaw". This is surely not reflective of a NPOV but rather of attempting to belittle the rest of the theory by over emphasising a weakness already raised by Stevenson himself. Normal science, in Kuhn's terms, is all about working on exactly these kinds of "glaring flaws" as puzzles to be overcome, so the additional emphasis seems to be both repetitive and pushing a particular view. The lack of a mechanism to explain the phenomenon he investigated does not make the phenomenon itself vanish in a puff of logic ;-)
Wow this is hard work for a couple of sentences!! I hope my efforts above are taken in the spirit they're intended. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 14:50, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- I believe there are more general WP:FRINGE, WP:RS and WP:UNDUE issues with this article, and it should interest many of the people here. Verbal chat 14:55, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- Evidently not! I think I'll reapply my edits until there is a compelling reason to have it otherwise. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 09:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm interested in stopping pseudoscience articles being preesented as real science, as mentioned previously -- in fact I brought this article itself or one very much like it (supposed science behind reincarnation being presented as accepted) to this page in the past. Sometimes, though, people want a break from some of the more depressing FRINGE and NPOV violations, which is why I didn't respond to this thread earlier. DreamGuy (talk) 12:55, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- Evidently not! I think I'll reapply my edits until there is a compelling reason to have it otherwise. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 09:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Jackiestud again
Jackiestud (talk · contribs) has now added this to Theology- "For the common term, see Thealogy" - I reverted it, saying Theaology is definitely not the common term for 'theology', she wrote to my talk page saying they were synonymous!. She is also adding the non-existent category Category:Pre-Historic Age to articles, and has found an article Dolmen deity which either needs some proof that the phrase is notable (which I can't find) or merger/AfD. Dougweller (talk) 18:39, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- Per the last ANI thread concerning her [37], I really think it's time to pull the plug on Jackie S. Her struggles with Greek and Latin etymology have wasted enough editors' time. --Folantin (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
I have to admit though that this is still within my "funny" category, not yet entirely in the "pain in the behind" one. --dab (𒁳) 05:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm less amused than the first time around, dab. Folantin, Looie: are you speaking of a topic ban? KillerChihuahua?!? 10:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- No, an indef block supported by community consensus. This editor has abundantly demonstrated an inability to contribute in a positive way. I'm not expecting it to happen yet, I'm just indicating that I personally have reached the point where I would support it. Looie496 (talk) 15:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yep, per GWH's comment at the end of the linked ANI thread: "Any chance we can find her a mentor? If not, I suspect an indef block will be in the near future." The second option is the more likely and I'd certainly endorse it. --Folantin (talk) 15:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- No, an indef block supported by community consensus. This editor has abundantly demonstrated an inability to contribute in a positive way. I'm not expecting it to happen yet, I'm just indicating that I personally have reached the point where I would support it. Looie496 (talk) 15:30, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
See also link to mother goddess problems
I went through and stripped a bunch of see also links to mother goddess. I have been keeping an eye on pages dealing with prehistoric art/anything made out of stone in prehistoric times. Sifaka talk 18:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- I've run into trouble on the Prehistoric art page. I've replaced a link to mother goddess in the see also section with prehistoric religion, but Jackie is reverting me anyway. Jackie says that "tehre shoudl be a whole subtitle on her!!!! she does shape art in pre history." I maintain that prehistoric religious art isn't limited to mother goddesses and that prehistoric religion is more general and appropriate. Can anyone else take a look? Sifaka talk 19:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Frankly I see no problem with "see also Mother goddess" at prehistoric religion. Preistoric art is a different case, because obviously a goddess per se isn't "art". --dab (𒁳) 19:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, the page in question isn't prehistoric religion. The link to mother goddess is at Prehistoric art. Sifaka talk 19:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Concur that prehistoric religion is a stronger link than mother goddess. Especially since the first "see also" link in prehistoric religion is goddess. That aside venus statuettes do represent an important trend within prehistoric art and they are notable. I believe the error that is at the crux of this matter is differentiating an artifact from modern interpretations of the meaning of said artifact and correlation of those interpretations with wholly modern religious movements.Simonm223 (talk) 20:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Nicely put. Sifaka talk 20:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- I've given her a 3RR warning on Prehistoric art. She also added Çatalhüyük to Paleolithic religion, she doesn't seem to know very much about prehistoric archaeology if she's moving sites around in time like that! Dougweller (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Nicely put. Sifaka talk 20:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
- Concur that prehistoric religion is a stronger link than mother goddess. Especially since the first "see also" link in prehistoric religion is goddess. That aside venus statuettes do represent an important trend within prehistoric art and they are notable. I believe the error that is at the crux of this matter is differentiating an artifact from modern interpretations of the meaning of said artifact and correlation of those interpretations with wholly modern religious movements.Simonm223 (talk) 20:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
we shouldn't obsess over "see alsos" too much. This isn't WP:FRINGE. Of course Jackie is charmingly clueless, but as long as she restricts herself to adding random links to "see also" sections, she isn't doing much harm. "See also" tend to need periodical cleanup anyway, and they don't affect the quality of the article proper. It's not a big deal. --dab (𒁳) 08:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
- You're probably right that this isn't the right board for this, but I brought up the see also links here since we had a section about her going anyway. In the future I'll post concerns about see also links in the NPOV or OR board. Sifaka talk 23:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
See new post below about Jackiestud (talk · contribs) and a BLP. Verbal chat 11:04, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
- It´s funny that the same wikipedia presents a potnia theron as one of the icons of mother goddess --and where did you find this argument of mother goddess must be virgins??
- It´s also funny that only after my "clueless Povs" ochre now presents a "ochre on human history" subtitle. Jackiestud (talk) 11:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
- No, it isn't funny, your edits were very problematic but no one said that there should be no section on ochre in human history. I don't know what your point is about Potnia Theron. Virgin? Is any of this supposed to a response to something in this section? As for links to Mother Goddess, why did you link Ma'at? Dougweller (talk) 14:39, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Needs some attention from anyone interested in New Age planetary alignments (aren't we all?). Dougweller (talk) 21:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- Hon, if I don't get the right crystal resonance in my meditation circle and my aura isn't just right, I can't edit planetary alignment articles at all. I'm sure you'll understand. A little reiki and TM and I'll get my center back in harmony and I'll give you a hand. Really. KillerChihuahua?!? 10:59, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Reddi again, adding a section on electrical engineering in the Bible. Dougweller (talk) 07:30, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
- Shocking. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
- Since this concerns biblical foreknowledge, I'll take the opportunity to bring up a related issue that is the embryology section in Qur'an and science. Sifaka talk 00:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Reddi and consensus
Please watch Pseudoskepticism. Consensus was previously arrived at several times to redirect because it is a term used almost exclusively by one person to mean a specific thing. Reddi can't seem to find the talk page. [38] NJGW (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Reddi (talk · contribs) has a history of literally years of completely ignoring all consensus and slow-paced revert warring. He doesn't get into 3RR problems, but he'll invariably be back after a couple of weeks or months and simply continue where he left off. This isn't respectable editing behaviour, and a community ban is beginning to impose itself. --dab (𒁳) 07:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Moses was acquainted with some of the phases of electricity
I am not sure what "some of the phases of electricity" even are, but Reddi is giving us the full monty now at Talk:Science and the Bible. This has got to stop. He used to be mildly annoying when he stubbornly insisted we discuss prehistory at the ancient history article in spite of everyone else, but now he is really going too far. --dab (𒁳) 15:53, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
We have a pov editor here, new account, unhappy with the dating by academics like Witzel and adding stuff like " There are considerable difficulties in accepting, these dates as the time of composition of the Vedas.The biblical concept that the earth is only 6000 and odd years old, must have a played a significant role in arriving at the dates of composition of Vedas by these authors.If the earth is only 6000 years old, the vedas have to fit in with in this time sacle! The discredited Aryan invasion theorists also would have played a great role in rewriting the chronology of vedas." I've deleted a bit but missed some, and the editor is continuing to add their personal views. I did give them a welcome message and a warning message for their first set of edits. Dougweller (talk) 10:36, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
- This weird idea that Biblical fundamentalism is behind Western dating of Vedic culture is a meme that crops up repeatedly with the Hindutva brigade. Paul B (talk) 11:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I've already put an advert banner on the "Dragon's Voice" section, but I wonder if it also counts as a fringe theory that certain documents are not Welsh but Cumbric. Or is that Original Research? Or Original Research giving rise to a Fringe Theory? Is the whole page a fringe theory or does it fail notability, seeing as there are about 6 members of this group of enthusiasts. Note that this "Anthony ap Anthony o Rheged" person (whose real name is Anthony Harris, I believe) has his findings in the above book, published by some sort of vanity publishing house, not in any kind of peer reviewable publication. Paul S (talk) 15:49, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
- I removed that section, and commented on the talk page. I don't see any reason why the article shouldn't exist at this point. Looie496 (talk) 16:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
- After a web search, I'm not convinced and I've taken it to AfD. I don't think the same article in several local papers gives it enough notability. We'll see if more gets turned up, but I spent quite a bit of time searching. Dougweller (talk) 16:59, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
We have a new editor who doesn't undertand Wikipedia, and the article probably can use some help anyway. I've deleted a whole bunch of See also's that were in the article or not clearly relevant. Dougweller (talk) 17:02, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Advertisement for PhotoReading, "The distinguishing feature of PhotoReading is that the readers allow the unconscious mind to rapidly absorb material and then logically or consciously recapture the information they photoread through multiple perusals, as opposed to conventional reading or speed reading, which relies solely on the conscious mind to sort information through one passing conscious mind"
Needs a rewrite based upon independent, reliable sources. Currently a SPA is wants to remove an independent study on PhotoReading from the article completely. --Ronz (talk) 00:26, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- I've decided to start stubbing it, being unable to find any sources to build an article around. --Ronz (talk) 16:36, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi, there is a dispute about whether an edit I made is supported by consensus to Psychic. Here is the diff. I'd appreciate it if people had a look and gave their thoughts on the talk page here. Verbal chat 08:49, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
- Just from a quick glance I can see that that article is a battlefield of some entrenched editors with demonstrated histories of pro-FRINGE edits. The more editors that take a look at that article, the better. DreamGuy (talk) 16:44, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
- Note that the diff is on the secure server, so unless you are logged in (or don't login) watch out if you start to edit it from that page. I realise now that I should have seen the lock icon. Dougweller (talk) 18:15, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Oh, god. Don't tell me the article's claiming psychics unambiguously exist again. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:16, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Simone Bittencourt de Oliveira and Jackiestud (talk · contribs)
Relevant discussion regarding WP:OR and WP:RS problems in the spirituality section of this WP:BLP is taking place at the BLP noticeboard here. Involves Jackiestud (talk · contribs) who has been mentioned a few times here. Cross-posted here to try and get more input and as it covers fringe beliefs. Verbal chat 10:59, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
- She's been blocked for 4 days by EdJohnston with a warning that she needs to show through her actions that she is willing to follow Wikipedia policy. Dougweller (talk) 16:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
An editor has added a POV tag to this article, claiming that it is unfairly portrayed as fringe. As this article has just been improved substantially, we should ensure that the standard is kept or improved and that it doesn't return to its previous state. A "review" justifying the tag is here. Verbal chat 18:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Discussion at ANI
Take a look at the discussion here Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Admins_vs_contributors which should be of interest to almost everyone here even if they aren't interested in the specific article. Dougweller (talk) 19:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
- Speaking as a non-admin... I agree with the end results. About time that someone dealt firmly with that particular Fringe theory. Blueboar (talk) 20:34, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
- CoM tried to revert to the version from the banned editors, and it appears he and perhaps other editors plan to keep trying. As well as possible appeals, attacks on other editors, etc. I hope it ends here but I doubt it will. I think a few editors are out to get some admins. Dougweller (talk) 21:07, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
- If CoM = Child of Midnight then he's made his first edits to the article today. Of course, I must assume this is purely disinterested on his part and has nothing to do with his feud with William M. Connolley, the admin who recently blocked him and who edited the page just before him.--Folantin (talk) 21:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
- I notice that another editor Dimitri Yankovich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has just turned up on Ancient Egyptian race controversy as a highly probable sleeping sockpuppet of Muntuwandi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I hope that the article will be locked fairly soon. At the moment it seems to be attracting some of the most disruptive editors on wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 06:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- The article was edited for months with no problems. Recently, a few aggressive editors have gutted the article and repurposed it to focus solely on the study of ancient Egyptian ethnicity as an investigation that relates solely to afrocentrism. This is a very strange and misleading version of the long history of investigations into who the Egyptians were. I don't know why anyone would choose to rewrite and fabricate history in this way.
- Investigating the situation, I reviewed the article versions and the talk page. The source of the disruption is clear. The policy violations are also clear. I'm not sure why some in the community find it appropriate to advance an innacurate POV that the discussion and debate over the ethnicity of Ancient egyptians originated in the Afrocentric movement of the early 60s, but this is easily disproven by sources discussing the issue more than 100 years earlier. The problems of a close knit group reverting to their preferred version, blocking a group of editors who disagree, and then protecting the article are disturbing. The personal attacks and intimidation engaged in by those trying to win the content dispute by abusing our policies is also troubling. If anyone has any questions I'm happy to answer them. Anyone with a modicum of academic and intellectual integrity who cares to review the article history and the discussion will find that the policy violators are not the ones who have been banned. Cheers. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:32, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- What CoM writes is factually incorrect. Books like that of Redford mentioned in the thread above give a clear account of what is currently believed in mainstream egyptology. Outdated sources cannot be used unless they have recently been discussed in secondary sources. What CoM has written above is pure synthesis, WP:OR and WP:UNDUE, i.e. the usual indicators for fringe POV-pushing. Mathsci (talk) 06:28, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- The article is about the debate over who the Ancient Egyptians were. And the absurd version being pushed suggests that the debate originated in the 1960s with Afrocentrism. This is clearly disproven by sources from more than 100 years before that movement. There is no synthesis or OR needed to debunk this fringe nutjobbery for the absurd nonsense it is. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- please have the minimal decency to at least read the article before telling us what it "is about". No, it is not about "who the Ancient Egyptians were", that would be the scope of our Ancient Egypt article. The article is, instead, about eccentric ideas about their "race". --dab (𒁳) 19:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- The article is about the debate over who the Ancient Egyptians were. And the absurd version being pushed suggests that the debate originated in the 1960s with Afrocentrism. This is clearly disproven by sources from more than 100 years before that movement. There is no synthesis or OR needed to debunk this fringe nutjobbery for the absurd nonsense it is. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- What CoM writes is factually incorrect. Books like that of Redford mentioned in the thread above give a clear account of what is currently believed in mainstream egyptology. Outdated sources cannot be used unless they have recently been discussed in secondary sources. What CoM has written above is pure synthesis, WP:OR and WP:UNDUE, i.e. the usual indicators for fringe POV-pushing. Mathsci (talk) 06:28, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- If CoM = Child of Midnight then he's made his first edits to the article today. Of course, I must assume this is purely disinterested on his part and has nothing to do with his feud with William M. Connolley, the admin who recently blocked him and who edited the page just before him.--Folantin (talk) 21:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
- CoM tried to revert to the version from the banned editors, and it appears he and perhaps other editors plan to keep trying. As well as possible appeals, attacks on other editors, etc. I hope it ends here but I doubt it will. I think a few editors are out to get some admins. Dougweller (talk) 21:07, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
- Question: What idea specifically do you consider "eccentric"? Mamo Kilo (talk) 19:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- "Ancient Egypt and Black Pride". It is exactly as eccentric as "Vikings and White Pride". More to the point, both of these memes are an expression of current-day racism and have nothing to do with the bona fide study of ancient history. Now I put a question to you: is it likely that the Wikipedia community would tolerate the Stormfront / White pride crowd writing detailed articles about the white race of the Vikings? I don't think so, and I think that is as it should be. Then why have we tolerated the exact equivalent for years, the Afrocentrist / Black Pride crowd writing articles about the black race of the Egyptians? Is this some sort of "affirmative action" within the Wikipedia community? I call it pathetic. We have policies, and they apply to everyone. --dab (𒁳) 08:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it is one of the worst articles on wikipedia. As I've already said on this page I've discussed the article briefly with two RL egyptologists - Geoffrey Martin and Kate Spence - just to confirm the position in mainstream egyptology. Mathsci (talk) 08:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- CoM keeps distoring what the article actually says. Yes, it concentrates on the period from the 60s onward, no, it doesn't say that it debate originated in the 60s as CoM says. It says (or said last night at least) "Although questions surrounding the race of the ancient Egyptians had occasionally arisen in 18th and 19th-century Western scholarship as part of the growing interest in attempted scientific classifications of race, in academia the meme was popularised and continued throughout the 20th century in the works of George James -- dated 1954. Dougweller (talk) 10:16, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- However, it is I who pointed this out and provided the sources for it. And the fact is that race, racism and controversies over such related to ancient Egypt go back to the foundation of America itself. This is documented clearly in numerous works from the time and after. Most of the controversies or debates about ancient Egypt had to do with arguments for and against slavery and for or against the biological inferiority of black Africans. That is the basis of the controversy. The same arguments about Herodatus and the Nile being in Africa have been made since the 1700s. and during the 1800s Egyptomania was sweeping America and there was a definite fixation on the race of the ancient Egyptians as part of the craze for all things Egypt. The title of the article is "Ancient Egyptian Race Controversy", not "Controversial views of Afrocentrics concerning Ancient Egypt". The title of the article does not limit the scope of the discussion to the 1960s. There are already articles on Afrocentrism and if this article is intended to Afrocentrism then it should be merged into the existing articles that already exist. However, if one is going to talk about race and ancient Egypt then one cannot avoid the overt references to race and ancient Egypt from the 18th and 19th century. These were not "fringe" views, these were front and center mainstream opinions, even if they were overtly racist.
- CoM keeps distoring what the article actually says. Yes, it concentrates on the period from the 60s onward, no, it doesn't say that it debate originated in the 60s as CoM says. It says (or said last night at least) "Although questions surrounding the race of the ancient Egyptians had occasionally arisen in 18th and 19th-century Western scholarship as part of the growing interest in attempted scientific classifications of race, in academia the meme was popularised and continued throughout the 20th century in the works of George James -- dated 1954. Dougweller (talk) 10:16, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it is one of the worst articles on wikipedia. As I've already said on this page I've discussed the article briefly with two RL egyptologists - Geoffrey Martin and Kate Spence - just to confirm the position in mainstream egyptology. Mathsci (talk) 08:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- "Ancient Egypt and Black Pride". It is exactly as eccentric as "Vikings and White Pride". More to the point, both of these memes are an expression of current-day racism and have nothing to do with the bona fide study of ancient history. Now I put a question to you: is it likely that the Wikipedia community would tolerate the Stormfront / White pride crowd writing detailed articles about the white race of the Vikings? I don't think so, and I think that is as it should be. Then why have we tolerated the exact equivalent for years, the Afrocentrist / Black Pride crowd writing articles about the black race of the Egyptians? Is this some sort of "affirmative action" within the Wikipedia community? I call it pathetic. We have policies, and they apply to everyone. --dab (𒁳) 08:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Question: What idea specifically do you consider "eccentric"? Mamo Kilo (talk) 19:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- As an example:
...but as we are merely suggesting a few topics for the reader's meditation, let us inquire, what was the type of that ancient Egyptian race which linked Africa with Asia? This interrogatory has given rise to enless discussions, nor can it, even now, be regarded as absolutely answered. For many centuries prior to the present, as readers of Rollin and of Volney may remember, the Egyptians were reputed to be Negroes and Egyptian civilization was believed to have descened the Nile from Ethiopia! Champollion, Rosseline, and others, while unanimous in overthrowing the former, to a great extent consecrated the latter of these errors, which could hardly be considered as fully refuted until the appearance of Gliddon's Chapters on Ancient Egypt, in 1843, and of Morton's Crania Aegyptiaca in 1844.
- From Introduction to types of Mankind: http://books.google.com/books?id=RtQKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA697&lpg=PA697&dq=Introduction+to+Types+of+Mankind&source=bl&ots=pFWJfc2QXj&sig=Q7BoRKCBp6E-eLFvxI4udzcV8-k&hl=en&ei=DRtbSofXLcOHtgfR_JiaCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11
- Hence, not only has the race of the ancient Egyptians been a subject of debate since the 18th century, but such concerns led to the first attempts to systematically analyze skulls and physical remains from Egypt as part of mainstream science, which at the time was overtly racist. Crania Aegyptiaca was written by George Morton, one of the fathers of the American School of Ethnology and one of the forerunners of modern physical anthropology. You don't get more mainstream than that and this is from the 1800s. He was racist and his efforts to study physical remains were partly driven by a desire to disprove any idea that the ancient Egyptians were black. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniometry or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Robins_Gliddon and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_George_Morton. Hence, it is impossible to claim that debates, controversies and interest in the race of the ancient Egyptians only started in the 1960s with Afrocentrics. Any idea that the study of race or racism in any aspect of the study of history or science or biology started with African Americans in the 1960s is strictly nonsense revisionary history, as all of these things started with European American whites. Not only did they create race as a subject of scientific study, but they created the idea of black and white as labels for races to begin with. None of that sort of "controversy" started with Afrocentrics.Big-dynamo (talk) 12:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Why is Big-dynamo attempting to analyse a mid-nineteenth century book? That is WP:OR and WP:SYN. Excellent secondary sources by world experts on anthropology and archaeology on the continent of Africa exist, for example the one mentioned below. I have no idea why editors choose to ignore these scholarly texts. These texts give quite a different impression of how African archaeologists and anthropologists are embarking on regional studies without preconceived ideas and within the normal framework of academic enquiry. Mathsci (talk) 14:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- The book stands on its own and reflects the fact that in the 1800s the race of the Ancient Egyptians was being analyzed and debated in various circles. And in most of these debates, the controversial part was the idea of the Ancient Egyptians were "negroes". Suffice to say, this makes it clear that such a controversy did not start in the 1960s with Afrocentrism. Therefore, claiming that "controversial" issues of race in American thought only started in the 1960s with Afrocentrics is patently false. And if you want to know where I happened upon these authors you can look here:
- http://books.google.com/books?id=YHgv011kWIAC
- Why is Big-dynamo attempting to analyse a mid-nineteenth century book? That is WP:OR and WP:SYN. Excellent secondary sources by world experts on anthropology and archaeology on the continent of Africa exist, for example the one mentioned below. I have no idea why editors choose to ignore these scholarly texts. These texts give quite a different impression of how African archaeologists and anthropologists are embarking on regional studies without preconceived ideas and within the normal framework of academic enquiry. Mathsci (talk) 14:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- In fact, the antics of people like George Robins Gliddon were so controversial that Edgar Allen Poe even wrote a story about it (Some words with a mummy): http://xroads.virginia.edu/~Hyper/POE/mummy.html
- Simply put, none of the above is fringe or WP:SYN it is simply a reflection of the fact that the ancient Egyptian race controversy has been a facet of the American discourse on race since the 18th century at least.
- Big-dynamo (talk) 11:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
unindent; it should be clear that CoM is part of the problem, not of the solution.[39] Yes, the question of the "race of the Ancient Egyptians" would have been a viable question in 1840 to 1930 scientific racism. The question is today kept alive by racists who apparently have their mental home in the pre-WWII period. We can and do discuss scientific racism, no problem, but these articles aren't intended as being written by racists in defence of racism, per WP:TIGERS. Anyone who has difficulties understanding this after being kindly made aware of the fact five times over is either trolling, or a walking illustration of Hanlon's razor. It doesn't matter which, because either case will result in a ban. --dab (𒁳) 12:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- "Now I put a question to you: is it likely that the Wikipedia community would tolerate the Stormfront / White pride crowd writing detailed articles about the white race of the Vikings?" Since you have asked me - no, and my opinion is that this would certainly be "misguided pride" since the Vikings were known primarily for destruction, not for creating anything. But in this restrictive atmosphere, I am reluctant to divulge any more about what I think; I have already observed too many users who get involved, being banned or threatened when their opinions turned out not to be the "correct" ones. Mamo Kilo (talk) 13:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- I have already observed too many users who get involved, being banned or threatened when their opinions turned out not to be the "correct" ones -- Nice try
Muntuwandi. When people disruptively push a fringe POV they should get banned -- topic banned or otherwise. Editors who are incapable of dealing with a topic ban by taking some time off and considering their approach to a subject matter and instead start disrupting various community forums and/or socking are probably incapable of being productive members of this project.Personally I'm surprised that the rest of community is putting up with the level of disruption going on at ANI presently.I see someone finally came to their senses.PelleSmith (talk) 14:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)- So you are accusing me of being User:Muntuwandi now, correct? Mamo Kilo (talk) 14:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- it doesn't matter who you are, per WP:DUCK. You refuse to Get It, consequently your account is going to be sanctioned under WP:DISRUPT. Easy. You are correct that exchange of opinions isn't the purpose of this site, and you would be well advised to expound your ideas at another venue, such as google knol, blogspot or google groups. --dab (𒁳) 13:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- So you are accusing me of being User:Muntuwandi now, correct? Mamo Kilo (talk) 14:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- I have already observed too many users who get involved, being banned or threatened when their opinions turned out not to be the "correct" ones -- Nice try
- What did I do wrong? I asked a question, you answered it and asked me another question about my opinion, and I answered as carefully as I could, to avoid being accused or threatened, but I was immediately accused and threatened anyway. Did I give the "wrong" answer? Or why exactly am I being discriminated against now? Mamo Kilo (talk) 13:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- you are not being "discriminated against". To the exact contrary, you are expected to respect the project rules and guidelines like everyone else. You are entitled to your private opinions, but they are irrelevant here. You basically said that you think that we should not allow white pride articles because such pride is "misguided", to the implication that we should allow black pride ones because, apparently, such pride is not "misguided". If these are your criteria for inclusion, you are clearly misguided as to the nature of this project. You want to read WP:TRUTH, WP:TIGERS, and if you still cannot understand what Wikipedia is trying to be, you could try WP:MENTOR, but in any case you will go well beyond the scope of this noticeboard, or the ANI one. --dab (𒁳) 15:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- What did I do wrong? I asked a question, you answered it and asked me another question about my opinion, and I answered as carefully as I could, to avoid being accused or threatened, but I was immediately accused and threatened anyway. Did I give the "wrong" answer? Or why exactly am I being discriminated against now? Mamo Kilo (talk) 13:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) Perhaps newly arrived editors to Ancient Egyptian race controversy should acquire more skills in locating secondary sources. I made a search on google scholar for "egyptian" and "afrocentrism". The following mainstream academic book, published after a major conference in 2000 at University College London, seems to be an excellent secondary source:
- O'Connor, David; Reid, Andrew (2003), Ancient Egypt in Africa, Cavendish Publishing, ISBN 1819720004
The contributors are all established academics. There is an article by John North on "Attributing colour to the ancient egyptians", another by Bernal and a long general introduction by the two editors. The fact that no article in this book has been cited is problematic; amongst other things the book specifically deals with afrocentrism and egyptology. Mathsci (talk) 08:37, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- There is an odd pattern in this discussion and it seems to me some editors are being treated with a double standard. When they refer to claims that ancient Egyptians were Black, dab, Mathsci and others inform them that this article is not about the actual race of ancient Egyptians, it is about a controversy over how they be identified. okay, that sounds right to me. But thn when they refer to sources from the nineteenth century on the race of ancient Egyptians, they are asked why they use these out-dated sources when current anthropological and archeological research says otherwise. Now suddenly it sounds like this article really is about the actual identification of ancient Egyptians. It seems to me that if this article is about a controversy, there must be a minimum of two sides to the controversy. Some editors have argued that one side is afrocentric. Okay. other editors have argued that the other side is Eurocentric. Well, this makes sense to me. The importance of 19th century sources is not to make claims about the current state of scientific research, it is to provide historical context for the controversy. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Finally, this does not belong on the fringe theory noticeboard. The Race of Ancient Egyptians Controversy should be describing a controversy in the popular domain. It sounds to me like it would help a great deal if the article made it clear that there is no controversy among mainstream historians and archeologists, and that the controversy is outside of academe. In this context it is not a fringe theory, it is a popular non-scholarly set of beliefs. And there is nothing wrong with Wikipedia having an article on this. We have an article on evolution - we exclude arguments about creationism from that article because in the context of biological science creationism is a fringe theory. Likewise, fringe theories should simply be kept out of the article on Egyptian history. But we also have a separate article on creationism, and another article on the evolution-creation debate. In the context of these two articles it does not matter that creationism is for biologists a fringe theory. These articles are covering arguments that occur in the popular sphere. That is what the article on the Race of Ancient Egyptian Controversy article should do. If we can have an article on the evolution-creationist controversy, we can have this article. And it has to provide both sides of the controversy, both those who claim ancient Egyptians were black, and those who claim they were white. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- On June 18 Paul B suggested that an approach advocated by Zara1706 could be a productive way to reframe and develop the article. I urge Ancient Observer, WDFord, and other good faith editors to follow this approach. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
It's not really my bailiwick, but a lot of the content here rings alarm bells. The article currently equivocates between a "Traditional hypothesis," which as far as I can tell is actually a "mainstream consensus," and a bevy of "Alternative hypotheses," which as far as I can tell are mostly "Quixotic speculations" with a generous helping of "Crackpot silliness." Sources cited include that eminent Egyptological journal sphynxmystery.info - featuring a prominent testimonial from Rupert Sheldrake. Other sources apparently have academic qualifications but are extremely isolated and controversial, yet they are presented in the article as just other equally credible voices. Perhaps I'm overreacting. Someone with a better understanding of the current scholarship should probably take a gander. <eleland/talkedits> 01:20, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
- Has this been imported from a formerly separate fork page? A lot of the 'links' just direct to the page itself. Paul B (talk) 20:32, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Could use some monitoring. I've just removed a veritable how-to of alt-med advocacy. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding that article's (former) wurblings about "birth trauma", see also Pre- and perinatal psychology. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
This bit of advocacy: Gripe water - also needs a good clean-out, but I'm not sure where to start, as there's so many problems. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 04:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on the basis that it's not based on any serious historical reference, but seeks to promote historical fabrication induced by the contemporary territorial claims of one country against another. Upon the request to produce references, none were presented from third party NPOV sources and those from POV sources were found to contain serious historical inaccuracies. Hence, I would like to request a review of this article and its sources on the basis of the topic being a fringe theory. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 01:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Not stating anything one way or another about the underlying issue, the AfD closure was astonishingly incompetent. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't say I was unhappy with the result. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Peacocking and puffery at Ian Stevenson
This article is having problems with its lead at the moment, with an editor insisting on inserting peacock terms into the lead, puffery, and minimising the conclusion that his work was not accepted by the scientific community. The article has got a lot better, but it shouldn't be allowed to turn into a whitewash. More eyes please, Verbal chat 10:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Diff showing problem edit here (SECURE) Verbal chat 10:50, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- I see the latest talk page comments include accusations of "censorship" and arguments that reincarnation research is neither pseudoscience nor fringe. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:59, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
We have what could develop into a severe problem here. An admin has showed up, declaring that other people are violating ArbCom sanctions and insinuating that she's going to get them blocked. At the same time she is demanding that no article can mention the term "pseudoscientific" (of which she says "please believe me, is a completely meaningless term" and that those using it "are only displaying their own ignorance") despite the fact that the two ArbCom decisions behind WP:FRINGE explicitly approve of the use of the term. When we have someone misrepresenting a decision like this and taking a very aggressive stance -- especially considering the admin in question has been known to make rather unorthodox decisions on her own in the past -- I think it's important that a broad range of editors including other admins watch what's going on in case it escalates beyond mere bluff and bluster. DreamGuy (talk) 16:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Personally I was surprised that such a skilled editor began taking an antagonistic stance. The National Science Foundation clearly does not feel pseudoscience is a meaningless term. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- I thought SV had lost the tools, so I wasn't too worried about any bluster. Did SV get them back? I have no problem with AE sanctions being employed there, but I do think they're being pointed in the wrong direction. Verbal chat 17:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- I'll be honest: reading the article itself for the first time (this version), without knowledge of any specific active disputes, it looks pretty decent to me. There's a summary of Stevenson's beliefs, hypotheses, and research, and a summary of the reactions he provoked. I didn't come away thinking that someone was using Wikipedia to try to trying to promote or discredit him. This seems like one of those cases where the parties are pretty close on actual content, but far apart on meta-issues under discussion on the talk page (e.g. the nature of pseudoscience and its validity as a concept). I don't think SlimVirgin is about to take administrative action herself; after all, she is involved in editing the page, so her admin status is probably not an issue one way or the other. MastCell Talk 17:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- Spot on. The article's not bad at all. The current Talk page hoopla seems to be an effort to keep the "p" word out of the article at all costs. - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Since I just went to the trouble of looking it up: in Nov 2008 SV was de-sysopped for six months, as a result of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Motion: re SlimVirgin. The six months of course expired recently; now she is operating under a restriction against undoing the actions of other admins, that's all. Looie496 (talk) 22:57, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Spot on. The article's not bad at all. The current Talk page hoopla seems to be an effort to keep the "p" word out of the article at all costs. - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- I'll be honest: reading the article itself for the first time (this version), without knowledge of any specific active disputes, it looks pretty decent to me. There's a summary of Stevenson's beliefs, hypotheses, and research, and a summary of the reactions he provoked. I didn't come away thinking that someone was using Wikipedia to try to trying to promote or discredit him. This seems like one of those cases where the parties are pretty close on actual content, but far apart on meta-issues under discussion on the talk page (e.g. the nature of pseudoscience and its validity as a concept). I don't think SlimVirgin is about to take administrative action herself; after all, she is involved in editing the page, so her admin status is probably not an issue one way or the other. MastCell Talk 17:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- I thought SV had lost the tools, so I wasn't too worried about any bluster. Did SV get them back? I have no problem with AE sanctions being employed there, but I do think they're being pointed in the wrong direction. Verbal chat 17:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Homosexuality
I added some information which counters the prevailing (Western mainstream) view that homosexuality is immutable, but someone deleted the material even though it was referenced; there's even an article about the organization which provides the information. Is this a case of a "fringe" view being unworthy of inclusion, or what? --Uncle Ed (talk) 21:37, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, Ed, the view of some religious right people that they can brainwash homosexuals into some kind of reformatting has been thoroughly debunked. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 21:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Look for the silver lining, Ed, you can add it to Conservapedia's Bias in Wikipedia page - if you decide to take a break from blaming homosexuals for Nazism. - Nunh-huh 21:54, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Those are not good responses to the question: we mustn't make decisions about what material is acceptable based on whether we like it. The actual problem with the edit was that the views it stated were not derived from reputable sources. Currently the scientific support for the idea that homosexuality is mutable is so limited as to make it a "fringe theory" in the terms of WP:FRINGE. Statements by religious or political advocacy groups don't change that. Looie496 (talk) 22:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Which is pretty much what I indicated: it's unseemly for Ed to try to recruit Wikipedia in his religiously-motivated war against "teh gays": that's what Conservapedia is for. - Nunh-huh 22:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- They may not be good responses for the question, Looie, but they are great responses to Ed, who knows darn good and well when he's just stirring the pot. KillerChihuahua?!?Advice 02:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- In that case, wouldn't it be better, as an admin, to warn him for disruption than to allow yourself to be trolled? Looie496 (talk) 02:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Feel free to issue any warnings you feel are "better", Looie. It's Ed's behavior that's in question here, not anyone else's, and there's no administrative issue. - Nunh-huh 02:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- I haven't encountered Uncle Ed before, to my knowledge, so a warning from me would be baseless. But if an admin has enough experience with a given user to see that the purpose of an action is to cause disruption, it is better to give a warning than a sarcastic response. Warnings can be used to justify future action; sarcasm can't. Looie496 (talk) 17:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Feel free to issue any warnings you feel are "better", Looie. It's Ed's behavior that's in question here, not anyone else's, and there's no administrative issue. - Nunh-huh 02:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- In that case, wouldn't it be better, as an admin, to warn him for disruption than to allow yourself to be trolled? Looie496 (talk) 02:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Those are not good responses to the question: we mustn't make decisions about what material is acceptable based on whether we like it. The actual problem with the edit was that the views it stated were not derived from reputable sources. Currently the scientific support for the idea that homosexuality is mutable is so limited as to make it a "fringe theory" in the terms of WP:FRINGE. Statements by religious or political advocacy groups don't change that. Looie496 (talk) 22:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Of course, if Ed has been issued lots of warnings in the past, adding another one is pointless. Not saying this is the case here, but I have found that sarchastic remarks and lack of Good Faith usually have some history behind them. Blueboar (talk) 18:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Look for the silver lining, Ed, you can add it to Conservapedia's Bias in Wikipedia page - if you decide to take a break from blaming homosexuals for Nazism. - Nunh-huh 21:54, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ed has been active on Wikipedia since The Dawn of Time, and involved in more dust ups on such issues than the Recording Angel can remember. Paul B (talk) 18:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Newcomers will either have to have faith in the judgement of the oldtimers, or do the necessary research; Ed is the reason that Wikipedia was (until fairly recently) the number one Google hit for AIDS kills fags dead (and our current article to which that redirects is still inadequately referenced and pretty disgraceful). - Nunh-huh 20:59, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ed has been active on Wikipedia since The Dawn of Time, and involved in more dust ups on such issues than the Recording Angel can remember. Paul B (talk) 18:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Reducing the statement "sexual orientation may not be immutable" to "zomg Conservapedia Nazis bible-thumping brainwashers" strikes me as a bit of an over-reaction. I have not researched this, but the claim that sexual orientation may change in the course of an individual's life does not necessarily have anything to do with homophobia, or brainwashing. It entails, much rather, that somebody may start out as a homosexual in their teens and switch to being hetero at some later date, or, equally, as a hetero teen that may turn homosexual at some later point. I am sure there are plenty of case studies for either direction of such "re-orientations", even omitting the rather large field of "neiher, or both", and I do not think it is helpful to reduce this discussion to one on ideology from the outset. The question whether such a change in either direction is in any way desirable is a completely different issue, and necessarily subjective. --dab (𒁳) 18:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- True, but Ed's actual edit wasn't about shifting sexual orientations, actions and self-identifications over a person's life - which may, of course include moving from hetero to homo as much as the other direction. It was about 'correcting' the 'error' of homosexual desire. Paul B (talk) 18:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- The most useful question here might be: is the cited source reliable and weighty enough to warrant the edit in question? In this case, the citation is to an advocacy group espousing a clearly minoritarian view. I don't think that warrants inclusion here; I suppose it could be considered in conversion therapy, a more appropriate sub-topic, but even there I think this is not a good encyclopedic source. If we cover conversion therapy in our article on homosexuality, then we should use high-quality, independent, reliable sources - ideally scholarly material, and failing that, reputable major-media coverage. MastCell Talk 18:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- This is what I actually wrote:
- NARTH claims that a third of people who try to reduce or change their sexual orientation or attraction through reparative therapy achieve some form of change. People Can Change gives details of a review carried out of 28 clinical studies covering a period of fifty years. The papers reviewed showed that of the 2,252 participants, 45 changed sexual orientation, 86 were able to have heterosexual relationships, and 287 reported a partial shift in sexual orientation. The review applied different criteria than those used by the original researchers, and re-interpreted the data as showing that 563 (a quarter) of the original participants in the studies over a fifty-year period reported either some sort of shift in orientation and/or the ability to participate in heterosexual relationship.[2]
- I fail to see how this violates any Wikipedia policy. I do see, however, how it might annoy someone who doesn't want other people to know that there are reputable researchers out there claiming that homosexuality is mutable for people who want to change.
- Is it possible that critics are missing the aspect of voluntarism here? There is a history of others (i.e., straights) trying to force people to change their sexuality - and History of homosexuality ought to document this, if it doesn't. I haven't found any support in the research literature of success with such approaches.
- Or is it that regard "unwanted same-sex attraction" as an impossibility - or a prospect that contradicts a given?
- This is what I actually wrote:
- I would prefer for the article to take no position on whether it is possible for volunteers to get help changing their unwanted same-sex attraction. An objective article would dutifully report both the mainstream:
- Can't be done.
- Hurts clients if you try.
- as well as the minority view:
- Has been done.
- Doesn't hurt clients who volunteer.
- I would prefer for the article to take no position on whether it is possible for volunteers to get help changing their unwanted same-sex attraction. An objective article would dutifully report both the mainstream:
- Surely, if this is a minority view then reporting it - and labeling it the view of a minority - won't mislead anyone. And surely also if the view is wrong then scientists have already examinined the minority claims and thoroughly debunked them.
- It would help our readers to see the minority scientific view compared to the mainstream critique of its methods and findings. If they've made mistakes (or, worse, committed outright scientific fraud), then someone has probably already exposed them. On the other hand, if their work is protoscientific then maybe no one in the mainstream has given it enough oversight yet. There have been episodes in the past, such as the work of Ignaz Semmelweis, which were dismissed at first but became mainstream later on. --Uncle Ed (talk) 21:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- "They all laughed at Christopher Columbus", but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. When NARTH becomes Semmelweis instead of Bozo, we'll cover it appropriately - you know, in addition to the link already provided in the homosexuality article before your recent addition added a second. Till then.... not so much. I can't say I hold much hope that NARTH will become Semmelweis, because its method of operation is the exact opposite of the scientific method: they have their conclusions, and collect only such data as supports them, rather than predicating their conclusions on the data. That's pseudoscience, not protoscience. - Nunh-huh 21:42, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ed, I think you're talking past the issue of reliable sources. A "review of the literature" performed by a partisan pressure group, and published on their website, is not a good encyclopedic source. It seems reasonable to request, and prefer, that we rely on meta-analyses and systematic reviews published in the reputable, current scholarly literature. The problem is not that this is a minoritarian view per se; it's that even minoritarian views are not exempt from the strictures of appropriate encyclopedic sourcing. MastCell Talk 22:17, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- I propose a variant of Godwin's Law - as the time available for a discussion of pseudoscience grows, the probability of the proponent invoking Semmelweis approaches one. Other comparisons may involve Nikolai Tesla or Alfred Wegener depending on the field in question. Skinwalker (talk) 02:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- "They all laughed at Christopher Columbus", but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. When NARTH becomes Semmelweis instead of Bozo, we'll cover it appropriately - you know, in addition to the link already provided in the homosexuality article before your recent addition added a second. Till then.... not so much. I can't say I hold much hope that NARTH will become Semmelweis, because its method of operation is the exact opposite of the scientific method: they have their conclusions, and collect only such data as supports them, rather than predicating their conclusions on the data. That's pseudoscience, not protoscience. - Nunh-huh 21:42, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- It would help our readers to see the minority scientific view compared to the mainstream critique of its methods and findings. If they've made mistakes (or, worse, committed outright scientific fraud), then someone has probably already exposed them. On the other hand, if their work is protoscientific then maybe no one in the mainstream has given it enough oversight yet. There have been episodes in the past, such as the work of Ignaz Semmelweis, which were dismissed at first but became mainstream later on. --Uncle Ed (talk) 21:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Spock demonstrates Dim Mak, a long-forgotten management technique from 21st century Earth. The fringe theory that Dim Mak, based on TCM principles, will allow a skilled practitioner to kill you by causing your qi to stagnate is ruling the roost at Dim Mak. Eyes needed.Simonm223 (talk) 19:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- I definitely concur. At the very least, it needs some clarification that there is no evidence for Dim Mak ever actually working. And the bit about how it's a closely guarded secret in the Origins section is obvious weaseling. --GoodDamon 19:39, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds almost as dangerous as the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique. MastCell Talk 22:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
- And it's better documented, at least in Wikipedia. Mangoe (talk) 01:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
this isn't a "fringe theory" in the classical sense. It is a medieval Chinese myth. We don't treat myths and legends as "fringe theories". --dab (𒁳) 14:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Can anyone demonstrate that it is such? Right now the only evidence I've been able to find is a bunch of martial arts types claiming that it has some ancient pedigree, but I have yet to find a single reference to it outside martial arts sites. Well, and the record company. Mangoe (talk) 15:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Also, if it is a medieval Chinese myth, does the article clearly state that it is a myth? Blueboar (talk) 15:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- From what I've managed to figure out it's a trope of the Wuxia genre of literature. I've seen accupressure striking for paralysis, healing and wounding with "internal" wounds in the writing of Jin Yong, Gu Long and in 20th to 21st century Wuxia television shows. I have not found a precedent from prior to the 20th century for this type of martial action. Earlier (ming and qing) dynasty martial novels, including earlier wuxia novels, tended towards references to light-stepping (qing-gong), neigong for self-healing, increased stamina and resistance to physical attack, and then poking holes in people with chunks of steel. As my own Sifu tended towards rational materialism he didn't teach anything to do with such nonsense and was dismissive of those who made claims of such and so I have no access, directly, to the oral tradition that the claims appear to arise from in order to confirm veracity. Considering the history of CMA in the last 100 years it is highly likely that Dim Mak did not exist as a concept prior to the introduction of firearms and the pursuant mythologizing of mid to late qing pugilists.Simonm223 (talk) 15:46, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Also, if it is a medieval Chinese myth, does the article clearly state that it is a myth? Blueboar (talk) 15:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- If, as Simonm suggests, the term turns out to be a purely 20th century fabrication without any basis in earlier Chinese literature, then I confess I have been fooled and I insist the article should most emphatically make the point that this is recent pop culture. --dab (𒁳) 15:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
a google books search seems to confirm what Simonm says. I find no reference to "dim mak" predating 1969, and then in a reply to a letter to a martial arts journal, debunking a book on Dim Mak by one Count Dante.[40] So, I am willing to assume that this is indeed a 1960s Wuxia urban legend. --dab (𒁳) 16:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Count Dante is a notable martial arts fraud who sold "deadly secrets of the ninjas" through comic book adverts.Simonm223 (talk) 16:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
A new user is insisting on adding the assertion that "Yuz Asaf is Hebrew for Jesus" and an anecdote about a Muslim sage and an elderly woman. He has also created the new article Similarities between Ahmadiyya and Other Religions, which seeems to be just an argument that the Quran supports Ahmadiyya views of Jesus. Paul B (talk) 13:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Centrifugal force dispute spins on
At the moment the problem is over inclusion of what I gather is some obsolete notions of Leibnitz. Anyway, there's an RFC on this which can be gone over here, for those with the stamina to do so. Mangoe (talk) 14:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
This is a truly amazing case. It illustrates how you can quibble about a very simple thing until the matter is so confused that it is impossible to state what the dispute is even about. --dab (𒁳) 14:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- I've said I think this dispute won't stop without at least one editor being topic banned. Dougweller (talk) 16:37, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- um, but which one? I can't spot anyone behaving positively disruptively, they just seem to mutually confuse the hell out of one another. The dispute as far as I have made out is about whether two separate historical approaches to the same physical phenomenon should be treated as separate issues. --dab (𒁳) 16:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
This article is not based on any serious research work and makes claims solely to insert Persian to historical contexts where it simply does not belong. For example, it's well known in scholarship that Timur (the grandson of Genghiz Khan) was a Turko-Mongol, whilst the article attempts to claim him or his dynasty Turko-Persian. The argument used in justification of this fringe theory is that Persian was spoken in some of the Turko-Mongol courts, but that's not an argument for identity association. For example, French was broadly spoken in Russian court and many Russian writers used this language. It does not mean Russia is Russo-French now. Americans eat pizza and sing opera in Italian, it does not mean U.S. is Anglo-Italian society. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 15:46, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- this article is, of course, part of the hunting grounds of our resident Persian nationalist brotherhood, so it is hardly surprising it is in a bad shape.
- seriously, it is time to get serious about this Persian circus soon. We can handle Kosovo, we can handle Armenia, so why not Persia. And, necessarily, the Türkic patriots at the same time, too. The Turks and the Iranians are competing in puerile pranks to the point where any article marginally related to the overlapping sphere of Turks and Iranians becomes utterly useless for reference. --dab (𒁳) 16:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- I agree... we have an ongoing problem at Wikipedia with ethno-racial-nationalist POV pushing from a host of of ethno-racial-nationalist groups. POV pushing like this needs to be opposed, no matter which group is responsible. Blueboar (talk) 16:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- It appears that this can be simply redirected to Persianate society, which is in need of some help but which is not intrinsically bad. Mangoe (talk) 16:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- I agree... we have an ongoing problem at Wikipedia with ethno-racial-nationalist POV pushing from a host of of ethno-racial-nationalist groups. POV pushing like this needs to be opposed, no matter which group is responsible. Blueboar (talk) 16:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Another example of this radical ethno-nationalism removal of the large number of referenced material, day's worth of work, in favor of an unsourced OR, fringe nationalist theory that Azeris and Uzbeks are Persians. It seems that people just have nothing else to do, but to pervert history. Yet another example Safavid Dynasty, which was originally called "Dowlat-e Safaviyye" (The Safavid State), now has Safavid Persian Empire stamped all over the article and removing/rescinding any kind of reference to Azeri/Turkic, while the founder of the kingdom even wrote poems and diplomatic letters in this language. This is called historical revisionism and reinventing identity at the expense of it, and with Persian case, it's gotten completely out of control. Atabəy (talk) 18:12, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- "The Turks and the Iranians are competing in puerile pranks to the point where any article marginally related to the overlapping sphere of Turks and Iranians becomes utterly useless for reference.." Tell me about it. I've been working on most of the individual Safavid shah bios and all anyone seems to be interested in is claiming these figures for their own ethnicity. (Just to test this, I've sneakily omitted to mention of some of the most famous cultural achievements of the reigns of Shah Tahmasp I and Shah Abbas I in my revisions. I was hoping somebody else might add them but no such luck.). I have yet to pluck up the courage to edit the main Safavids and the Shah Ismail articles (check the talk pages to see why).--Folantin (talk) 18:37, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Looks like Dbachmman took care of the issue by redirecting a fork article to Turco-Persian tradition. About the term [[41]]. For example René Grousset , not a Persian nationalist calls the Seljuqs a Turko-Persian empire. However that article was written poorly and was a fork.
However, I believe the above user is trying to fish around and cannot claim to be unbiased. His record is clear. Atabek has been topic banned from several regionals topics by the admin Moreshchi and has been in two arbcomms and is under 1rr. He recently had a scuffle with another established ubiased user here: [42] because legitimate sources call Alparslan Türkeş a fascist. Thus he claims the user was Turko-phobic.
His claim about Safavids are wrong [43] and there are books "http://books.google.com/books?q=%22Safavid+Persian+empire%22"(Safavid Iran: Rebirth of a Persian empire). That is written by a scholar and there are dozens of such sources. It is a common geographical designation. I gave a detailed response on the usage of Iran/Persia for Safavids for the user here: [44] from both primary and secondary sources. However any European travel logue and map from the era names the country Persia. However just look at European maps of the era, and it is called Persia. And Safavids used 'Ajam (Persia) and Iran in their own official letters. As per the origin of the dynasty, Roger Savory says the concensus is Safavid origin was from Kurdistan and they later adopted Azeri-Turkic. This is reflected in the article and we have allowed various theories in the article, since users did not reach a concensus. As far as I can tell all statements from the article are sourced. Dbachmman should not mistake a poor article and generalize. I note again that Moreschi whom Dbachmann respects actually topic banned this user from some areas. So one should not say he has a neutral attitude here. He just found a badly written fork article and is looking to make all Iranian users look bad. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 18:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Quite frankly, most of the editors who took part in the talk page feuds on Safavid dynasty and Shah Ismail I should be topic-banned for violating undue weight by making the articles over-obsessed with modern notions of ethnicity. If you read books by academics - like Savory's Safavid Iran - you'll find they spend more time talking about "Turks" or "Turcomans" versus "Tajiks". This distinction is a cultural one rather than about how many drops of ancestral blood flowed in their veins. "Turks" spoke a Turkic language and did the soldiering; "Tajiks" spoke Persian and did the desk jobs. --Folantin (talk) 19:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Well Savory states: "Why is there such confusion about the origins of this important dynasty, which reasserted Iranian identity and established an independent Iranian state after eight and a half centuries of rule " and the Safavids themselves obscured their origin [45]. So one cannot expect normal users not be confused! I have also added a good deal of information on Safavid architecture and the scholars such as Mullah Sadra, Shaykh Bahai and etc. However, you need to understand something. That region of the world did not have WWI and WWII and the people have different mentality. Nationalism (ultra-nationalism) is very high and actually Western governments support some of the very ultra-nationalist governments and etc. Also in terms of religious outlook, one should not expect a shock if people protest a cartoon about the prophet of Islam. One should compare it to 18th century Italy and say if someone insulted Jesus openly, they would have his head. I am not execusing the regions mentality or saying it is better or worst, it just exists. However please edit these articles and expand them. It definitely can use other perspectives and better editing. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 21:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with Folantin in general that ethnic heritage of Safavids was irrelevant in context of their history. That is IF, there was no well-concerted effort to block out everything that does not fit Persian nationalist agenda, no matter how weighty references are brought. Even Richard Frye, a prominent Iranist, with his "Azeri Turks were founders of Safavid dynasty" must be proven wrong by undue references. Safavids have to be claimed Kurdish with reference to only 7th generation forefather's writings, while everything in between was mixed with other ethnicities. Some edits even go as far as claiming Safavids have Georgian origins(!), using the same book reference as 4 different cited sources in the article. And as if writing the truth in Wikipedia article based on internationally acclaimed sources is going to strip someone of their identity, the Persian nationalist defamation attack is executed against anything else called Azerbaijani, Turkish or Turkic in Wikipedia.
- And reading Nepaheshgar either responding me with irrelevant subjects (topic restrictions on Armenia-related articles) or endlessly citing the Persian source, Encyclopedia Iranica, in response to what is well known to be a Persian nationalist POV pushing, with or without my presence, is quite interesting.Atabəy (talk) 21:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Please stop the WP:soapbox and WP:forum. An example of the ethno-nationalist of Atabek. He cites Encylcopedia Iranica on the assumed Azeri origin of Safavids, but the article has nothing to do with Safavids. If one looks at the Safavid article in Encyclopedia Iranica, it is fairly clear about their origin and is written by a scholar on Safavids. The same information is in Encyclopedia of Islam and various sources. Thus when I cite the same thing (say Iranica), it becomes a Persian nationalist POV but when he cites Iranica, it is Richard Frye a prominent Iranist. Richard Frye is a prominent Iranist but has absolutely nothing to do with Safavids. The prominent people in the area are Savory and Mathee as mentioned by Folantin and not Richard Frye. But inorder to solve the aricles problem, basically we have made it any source goes. However, Roger Savory, the eminent Safavid historian makes it clear: "From the evidence available at the present time, it is certain that the Safavid family was of indigineous Iranian stock, and not of Turkish ancestry as it is sometimes claimed." (History of Humanity-Scientific and Cultural Development: From the Sixteenth to the Eighteenth Century", Taylor & Francis. 1999). Safavids had Georgian/Turkomen/Circassian ancestry though their motherline. And they kept a geneology and after they took power, they did not claim Turkic ancestry but Arab Seyyed ancestry. Encyclopedia Iranica is well known and has been praised by the Richard Frye you quote. One can see from these aspects why the Safavid article had its problem. Also yes being topic banned on Armenia-related articles shows POV editing. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 22:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Huh? Since when are the academic projects of Columbia University (Encyclopedia Iranica) and Safavid scholars such as Roger Savory considered "Persian sources"? I have worked on many of these pages with User:Folantin whom I have a great deal of respect for, and assisted him against the different types of Persian nationalists, so Folantin knows my stands on these issues very well. Take my word as you will, User:Atabəy should be the last person to talk about "radical ethno-nationalism" on Wikipedia, he is the worst manifestation of that problem here. A courtesy look at his attempts to white-wash the negative aspects of Alparslan Türkeş's character, some ultra-nationalist Turkish politician who favored his party members to wear Hitler style haircut and mustache, and advocated Nazi racist doctrines, while at the same time raving on the talk page about "Turkophobia" and how Reza Shah, a mild nationalist compared to Alparslan Türkeş, was a Nazi, will tell you all you need to know about Atabəy's real concerns. Eliminating ethno-racial-nationalist POV is the least of Atabəy`s worries, the neutral editors here should be careful not to fall into his trap. He knows how to game the system, and he is essentially fishing here, trying to play on the concerned editors's fear of nationalism, citing some random badly-written POV fork that was rightfully redirected by Dbachmann, to further his own nationalist agenda elsewhere. Sorry about the blunt language, but you gotta call a spade, a spade! --Kurdo777 (talk) 22:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, evidence of nationalist/racist POV as presented, additionally focusing on personality than on topics as usual. Below are just a few of numerous Google Books references that never make it into Safavid article due to this POV:
- The Safavids and the empire of Nadir Shah Afshari, who deposed them, ruled Persia with armies mainly composed of hierarchically organized Turkic tribes
- These fighting forces, the qizilbash, came primarily from the seven Turkic-speaking tribes that supported the Safavid bid for power
- Within a decade the Safavids, though Turkish by race, had taken control of all Persia
- SAFAVIDS, a Turkish dynasty, were the originators of some architectural innovations in Iran, especially in urbanization.
- Religious overtones aside, in most other respects theirs was a typical Turkish dynasty
- Actually, the Safavids were Turkish in origin; early members of the dynasty wrote Turkish poetry
- In 1501 the Persians regained power in the Middle East through the Safavids, a Turkish people
- But the Safavids of the ioth/i6th century must not be regarded as a kind of Persian national dynasty. They were a Turkish dynasty
Now, I ask readers to dare to add any of this to Safavid dynasty and enjoy the action of Persian nationalist POV pushing, based on Pan-Iranism and ethnocentric political propaganda in encyclopedia to make own conclusions. Atabəy (talk) 23:03, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- None of your sources are written by Safavid experts. I can also quote 157 sources that says "Safavid Persians" [46].
However, look at the third source you brought, it is about their Turkocmen followers not Safavids. Roger Savory has written more than 100 aritcles and books on Safavids. "From the evidence available at the present time, it is certain that the Safavid family was of indigineous Iranian stock, and not of Turkish ancestry as it is sometimes claimed." (History of Humanity-Scientific and Cultural Development: From the Sixteenth to the Eighteenth Century", Taylor & Francis. 1999). Why can't you quote any Western Safavid expert that agrees with you? Mathee says the same about their Kurdish origin. Kathryn Babayan (another Safavid expert) states:" Kathryn Babayan, Mystics, Monarchs and Messiahs: Cultural Landscapes of Early Modern Iran , Cambridge , Mass. ; London : Harvard University Press, 2002. pg 143: “It is true that during their revolutionary phase (1447–1501), Safavi guides had played on their descent from the family of the Prophet. The hagiography of the founder of the Safavi order, Shaykh Safi al-Din Safvat al-Safa written by Ibn Bazzaz in 1350-was tampered with during this very phase. An initial stage of revisions saw the transformation of Safavi identity as Sunni Kurds into Arab blood descendants of Muhammad.”". Now who are the authors of your sources with regards to Safavid studies and how many publications they have on history of the area and Safavids? Still you have a section "Turkish component" and you can put whatever source you want, since your refusal to accept Safavid scholars has lead to the present situation. Encyclopedia Islam (Brill) clearly states the concensus is Safavids where from Kurdistan. However it is you that has made the article low quality, because when someone like Savory states: "From the evidence available at the present time, it is certain that the Safavid family was of indigineous Iranian stock, and not of Turkish ancestry " you go quote an out of the blue source like "History of Iranian literature". Look at another source you brought: [47]. It is called Firearms (a general book on firearms). So I think it is obvious who is pushing nationalistic POV and finding any non-expert source to claim anything. And yes complaining against Iranian nationalism while being blocked multiple times, under two arbcomm, under 1rr striction and also topic banned from some Armenian related articles does not really make you neutral user. Feel free to add those sources to the Turkish section on Safavids, no one has deleted them. Wikipedia is generally about WP:RS and WP:verifiability. So go ahead and put a source on firearms and Iranian literature on the origin of Safavids in the Turkish component section. However those sources such as "firearm", "Iranian literature" (general book on 1200 years of Iranian literature" and etc. are not really Safavid related books. Safavids experts are Savory, Mathee, Babayan, Melville, Roemer, and etc. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 23:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
If Nepaheshgar is involved, that's an instant warning sign that crank fringe theories are being pushed somewhere... -- ChrisO (talk) 23:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
There is some debate as to whether this "reincarnation researcher" meets either the WP:GNG or WP:PROF. Please see the talk page. Verbal chat 17:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)