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*'''Support'''. [[User:Ludraman|J<small>OHN</small> C<small>OLLISON</small>]] ([[User talk:Ludraman|An Liúdr]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ludraman&action=edit§ion=new amán]) 13:12, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
*'''Support'''. [[User:Ludraman|J<small>OHN</small> C<small>OLLISON</small>]] ([[User talk:Ludraman|An Liúdr]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ludraman&action=edit§ion=new amán]) 13:12, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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*Object. Excellent article, now that it's been copyedited, but I think the lack of references .. did the writers REALLY just know all this stuff? ... is too big an omission. It can't be too hard to fix this in time.[[User:Sfahey|Sfahey]] 22:48, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
*Object. Excellent article, now that it's been copyedited, but I think the lack of references .. did the writers REALLY just know all this stuff? ... is too big an omission. It can't be too hard to fix this in time.[[User:Sfahey|Sfahey]] 22:48, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''', because this is an excellent article and I don't want to be a pain about details, but there are several issues that should be looked at. |
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**(1) It needs a references section and more inline references. There are only five inline references (as links) in the article, which isn't enough for a page this size. For example, these claims needs references: "Reportedly, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the attack's mastermind, wanted to remove at least one member -- Khalid al-Mihdhar -- from the operation, but he was overruled by Osama bin Laden" (and the sentence needs proper dashes) and "Shortly after the attack there were reported popular celebrations in some countries by people opposed to U.S. policies in the Middle East , however several of these images are suspected to have been staged" (not the correct punctuation for however, and you need a comman after attack); |
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**(2) "In 2004, the U.S. government commission investigating the attacks officially concluded . . ." and "The official panel investigating the attacks reported that . . . " Why call it "the U.S. government commission" and "the official panel" rather than give it its proper name? |
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**(3) It needs a copy edit, as there's some odd English e.g. "New York City lit the Empire State Building in purple and gold, in a sign of saying thank you for having the U.S. national anthem playing at the Changing of the Guard." In a sign of saying thank you? And "The great majority of Muslim political and religious leaders condemned the attacks - virtually the only significant stand-out was Saddam Hussein." Stand-out? |
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**(4) The red links to be removed. |
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**(5) And finally, is it appropriate to use al-Qaida instead of al-Qaeda? As it was an attack on American soil, and American usage dominates elsewhere in the article, the American transliteration of al-Qaeda should probably be used, especially as it links to the Wikipedia article on al-Qaeda, which is translitered the American way. But that's a very small point. These are all small points, and I don't want to object on the basis of them, so this is just a request that some of these issues be resolved. I may do some of the copy editing myself if no one minds. [[User:SlimVirgin|Slim]] 23:43, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC) |
Revision as of 23:43, 3 January 2005
September 11, 2001 attacks
I think this one is an easy pick. It is a very lengthy and professional article about an important subject. --Dmcdevit 08:06, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Support. Its been over three years and the article has settled down substantially. It is unquestionably well written, informative and unbiased, so I give my support. CGorman 20:15, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Object: The title and first sentence use nonstandard punctuation. The standard when writing dates in the format of "month day, year" is to set the year off with two commas, or a comma in front and other appropriate punctuation following. Sources include the style guides of The Associated Press and The New York Times, "Working With Words: A Handbook for Media Writers and Editors", Webster's New World College Dictionary, and many more. Further, Wikipedia:Manual of Style says: "If a word or phrase is generally regarded as correct, then prefer it to an alternative that is often regarded as incorrect." (For anyone who disagrees with me, note that I am not attempting to change the page now. I am only giving my view that needless nonstandard punctuation is a disqualifier for featured article status.) Maurreen 20:18, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I don't have to hand any of the sources Maurreen selectively gives but this doesn't sound right to me. I think she, and her sources, confuse "On September 11, 2001, hijackers...", where the second comma is needed, with "September 11, 2001 was a..." where it is not. Why would it be? The whole of the date is the subject of the sentence. "2001" is not an apposition (as in "My mother, Maurreen, used to say 'use two commas') nor a parenthesis. In the example we are considering the whole of the date describes "attacks" and the same considerations apply. I have to say that voting against a featured article because it doesn't use the punctuation you favour in its title is a poor reflection on you.Dr Zen 23:33, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Object to the objection: Many US sources use the punctuation Maurreen considers "nonstandard" (see [1]). She even forced two votes on whether to have the comma that she wants inserted inserted, and lost them both. It's ridiculous to oppose an article becoming a featured article just because you want a comma where most people don't, jguk 23:22, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should just move this to Attacks of September 11, 2001? Neutralitytalk 03:43, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)
- That works for me. There are a number of options possible that would sidestep disagreement about the comma. Maurreen 04:39, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Maurren, are you sure you're right about the second comma? As I mentioned to you a few weeks ago, I can't find a source that backs you up on this, and the link you gave for a Google search (at least the ones I read) don't seem to support your view. I've checked the AP, CP, Guardian and Globe&Mail style guides, and they also don't seem to support a second comma in this context (though I may have missed it). Can you provide an actual reference for this (with page number and edition, if it's a style guide you've got to hand)? I do vaguely remember that this way of writing a date used to be taught in American schools, but I'm not aware that anyone continues to use this rule, and if they do, my guess is it would now be regarded as non-standard. For example, would you write: "A Washington, D.C. man" or "A Washington, D.C., man"? Slim 23:23, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should just move this to Attacks of September 11, 2001? Neutralitytalk 03:43, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)
- Support Looks good to me (Maurreen had missed a small number of genuine punctuation glitches, which I've fixed - sheeesh, seems like some can't see the wood for the trees). It's a nice article that doesn't spend too long on any one bit of it, with lots of links off it. (I should declare that I have done some work on the article some weeks ago - but it looks a lot better since I last saw it.) jguk 23:37, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Support just to spite Maureen's vote. The title is fine. Everyking 00:33, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Object. No "sources and further reading" section. Neutralitytalk 03:44, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)
- Huh? That title for a section is entirely ambiguous as to which resources are actually used as references and which are just there for more information for the reader. Why would you ask someone to create that ambiguity? But I agree the article needs references and citation organized in a section at the end as per the featured article criteria, especially Wikipedia:Cite sources. Object untill references are properly organized. - Taxman 03:57, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)
- Support This is a wonderful article, very comprehensive. I would agree with Taxman that it would be useful to have separate "sources" and "further reading" sections, but that is not an objection. Blue 10:50, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Support. JOHN COLLISON (An Liúdr) 13:12, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Object. Excellent article, now that it's been copyedited, but I think the lack of references .. did the writers REALLY just know all this stuff? ... is too big an omission. It can't be too hard to fix this in time.Sfahey 22:48, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Support, because this is an excellent article and I don't want to be a pain about details, but there are several issues that should be looked at.
- (1) It needs a references section and more inline references. There are only five inline references (as links) in the article, which isn't enough for a page this size. For example, these claims needs references: "Reportedly, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the attack's mastermind, wanted to remove at least one member -- Khalid al-Mihdhar -- from the operation, but he was overruled by Osama bin Laden" (and the sentence needs proper dashes) and "Shortly after the attack there were reported popular celebrations in some countries by people opposed to U.S. policies in the Middle East , however several of these images are suspected to have been staged" (not the correct punctuation for however, and you need a comman after attack);
- (2) "In 2004, the U.S. government commission investigating the attacks officially concluded . . ." and "The official panel investigating the attacks reported that . . . " Why call it "the U.S. government commission" and "the official panel" rather than give it its proper name?
- (3) It needs a copy edit, as there's some odd English e.g. "New York City lit the Empire State Building in purple and gold, in a sign of saying thank you for having the U.S. national anthem playing at the Changing of the Guard." In a sign of saying thank you? And "The great majority of Muslim political and religious leaders condemned the attacks - virtually the only significant stand-out was Saddam Hussein." Stand-out?
- (4) The red links to be removed.
- (5) And finally, is it appropriate to use al-Qaida instead of al-Qaeda? As it was an attack on American soil, and American usage dominates elsewhere in the article, the American transliteration of al-Qaeda should probably be used, especially as it links to the Wikipedia article on al-Qaeda, which is translitered the American way. But that's a very small point. These are all small points, and I don't want to object on the basis of them, so this is just a request that some of these issues be resolved. I may do some of the copy editing myself if no one minds. Slim 23:43, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)