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SandyGeorgia (talk | contribs) →Mario Vargas Llosa: relevant policy |
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* '''Comment'''. Congratulations to the authors. Unless I'm mistaken, the article doesn't describe how Vargas Llosa contributed to "The New Novel (La Nueva Novela)", or tell me what the New Novel signified. The concept bookends the article, in the lead and in "Legacy", but ''¿dónde está la carne?'' (apologies for that!). An answer to that may help with the other goal, to expand the section on his legacy. A smaller point: the sentence beginning "Vargas Llosa wrote of Arguedas's that it was..." seems to be missing a word, or else the implied thing being possessed is just not clear to me. –[[User:Outriggr|<font color="#112299">Outriggr]]</font> [[User talk:Outriggr|''§'']] 02:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
* '''Comment'''. Congratulations to the authors. Unless I'm mistaken, the article doesn't describe how Vargas Llosa contributed to "The New Novel (La Nueva Novela)", or tell me what the New Novel signified. The concept bookends the article, in the lead and in "Legacy", but ''¿dónde está la carne?'' (apologies for that!). An answer to that may help with the other goal, to expand the section on his legacy. A smaller point: the sentence beginning "Vargas Llosa wrote of Arguedas's that it was..." seems to be missing a word, or else the implied thing being possessed is just not clear to me. –[[User:Outriggr|<font color="#112299">Outriggr]]</font> [[User talk:Outriggr|''§'']] 02:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' - Oppose because the main source of information is in Spanish, without any translation, and there is no way for me to verify their credibility, thus, there is no way for a large bulk of English Wikipedia users to verify the information. Blind faith is not acceptable for a FA. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 04:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
*<s>'''Oppose''' - Oppose because the main source of information is in Spanish, without any translation, and there is no way for me to verify their credibility, thus, there is no way for a large bulk of English Wikipedia users to verify the information. Blind faith is not acceptable for a FA. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 04:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)</s> |
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*'''Conditional Support''' - Condition: direct quotes with translations provided for verification are provided so that at least 90% of the sources can be potential read/interpreted by all users. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 05:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
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*'''Question''' - Are these originally in Spanish - Armas, Boland, Campos, Fernández, Igartua, Lamb, Morote, Setti, Vargas Llosa, Williams? If so, I can't in good faith approve of this article. Wikipedia English relies on English sources so that others can verify them. Foreign language sources should be used only in rare cases. The sources I listed make up most of your references. I cannot check them, therefore, they don't meet Wikipedia's verifiability criteria. If you can find an English translation of your sources, please do. If not, then I will be forced to oppose. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 03:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
*'''Question''' - Are these originally in Spanish - Armas, Boland, Campos, Fernández, Igartua, Lamb, Morote, Setti, Vargas Llosa, Williams? If so, I can't in good faith approve of this article. Wikipedia English relies on English sources so that others can verify them. Foreign language sources should be used only in rare cases. The sources I listed make up most of your references. I cannot check them, therefore, they don't meet Wikipedia's verifiability criteria. If you can find an English translation of your sources, please do. If not, then I will be forced to oppose. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 03:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
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**This is not a valid oppose. While English language sources are preferred, they are not always the best (i.e., most comprehensive) sources nor are they always available. Vargas Llosa is a Latin American novelist, and it stands to reason that much of the literary criticism and biographies of him would be in Spanish, his native language and the language of his novels. The sources used '''can''' be verified, they will just need to be translated. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] ([[User talk:Karanacs|talk]]) 03:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
**This is not a valid oppose. While English language sources are preferred, they are not always the best (i.e., most comprehensive) sources nor are they always available. Vargas Llosa is a Latin American novelist, and it stands to reason that much of the literary criticism and biographies of him would be in Spanish, his native language and the language of his novels. The sources used '''can''' be verified, they will just need to be translated. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] ([[User talk:Karanacs|talk]]) 03:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Actually, foreign language sources need to have direct quotes with direct translation per the verifiability rules. Sorry, but this is the English Wikipedia for a reason. It will be perfectly acceptable on the Spanish Wikipedia. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 04:37, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
:::Actually, foreign language sources need to have direct quotes with direct translation per the verifiability rules. Sorry, but this is the English Wikipedia for a reason. It will be perfectly acceptable on the Spanish Wikipedia. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 04:37, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
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::::Jbmurray has just kindly offered above to do the translations you requested. [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 04:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
::::Jbmurray has just kindly offered above to do the translations you requested. [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 04:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::Then there will be no other objections from me after such is done. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 05:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
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:: "Where editors use a non-English source to support material '''that others might challenge''', or translate '''any direct quote''', they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content." [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 05:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
:: "Where editors use a non-English source to support material '''that others might challenge''', or translate '''any direct quote''', they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content." [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 05:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 05:22, 15 April 2008
Mario Vargas Llosa
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I'm co-nominating this article for featured article because I believe that it satisfies the criteria for Wikipedia's Featured Articles. It is a thorough, fluent, and well-researched account of one of the most important authors of contemporary Latin American and world literature. The article is the result of an immense amount of work, above all by my co-nominators, with the generous aid of the FA-Team. The editors actively seek your suggestions for further improvement. Thank you. Co-nom: User:Isabel-clase, User:lincolnchan98, User:tommaso88. jbmurray (talk|contribs) 22:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Lincolnchan98 394
- Tommaso88 167
- Jbmurray 166
- Acer 88
- Geometry guy 44
- Awadewit 42
- Karanacs 30
- Kaldari 24
- Isabel-clase 22
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbmurray (talk • contribs) 23:59, April 14, 2008 (UTC)
- Support Disclaimer: I have copy edited and reviewed this article recently. This is a well-written, well-organized, well-researched, and well-illustrated article. I am happy to support this fine biography of an important Latin American writer - another excellent article from the Murder, Madness, and Mayhem project. I would like to thank the editors for all of their hard work and for their willingness to continually revise and to work towards the highest standards. Awadewit (talk) 22:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Remember how you promised me you'd remove the JSTOR, etc. links per WP:LINKSTOAVOID? Awadewit (talk) 22:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- I am concerned if other readers with JSTOR access cannot follow the links. But, and I recognize that this may not be the time and the place for this discussion, in general I'd like to argue fairly strongly for such links. It seems to me that these are, as it were, "bonus" links. It is not that they could be replaced with other, more accessible, links. So while it is true that only a minority of readers can follow them, for those users they are extraordinarily helpful, as they get them straight to the source in question. Whereas readers who are not so fortunate are no worse off than if the links were not there.
- I do, however, agree that there should be some kind of warning. And if there's no field within the citation template, I can add such a warning in plain text after each link. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 22:35, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Jbmurray, as I understand it, only the people logged in at your university can use those links. That is a real minority. If other people, like myself, with JSTOR and EBSCO access cannot use these links, they are next to useless. (Just to be absolutely clear - I'm clicked on them and they don't work for me - I get a message saying I'm not authorized to view the article.) Awadewit (talk) 22:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm. Obviously that would invalidate the inclusion of those links. My parochialism and my support for minority rights is not so very limited! I'd get rid of them immediately. But I'm a little puzzled. Anyone who is logged into a network that has such rights (even by proxy, as I am when I am at home as now) should be able to access those links; there's nothing about them that is unique to UBC or indeed any other university. Perhaps we could do a little testing (and report back on the talk page?) from other users who can otherwise generally gain access to such databases. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 22:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- JSTOR is widely used in academia, with many universities supporting it. I think it is entirely appropriate to link to JSTOR in articles with academic content. I'm surprised there are problems linking to these particular articles: I will see tomorrow if I can access them from my university. Geometry guy 23:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Note: I am able to follow these links seamlessly and am not attending UBC. I !vote keep. Wrad (talk) 01:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- I can too, and am in a different country. (JSTOR has quite recently changed format; this may be part of whatever problem there is.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- I would like to emphasize that only thousands of people are subscribed through universities (which hopefully work better than mine) while millions of people view the site subscriptionless. Let's not irritate the millions. Awadewit (talk) 02:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is a purely hypothetical problem until one of those millions speaks up; and even then, they are not being hurt unless (as is most unlikely) there is a free link to Latin American Research Review which we are omitting. As one of the tens of thousands who can link, I am merely grateful not to be forced to search for the article again — this is the purpose of convenience links. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Note: I am able to follow these links seamlessly and am not attending UBC. I !vote keep. Wrad (talk) 01:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- JSTOR is widely used in academia, with many universities supporting it. I think it is entirely appropriate to link to JSTOR in articles with academic content. I'm surprised there are problems linking to these particular articles: I will see tomorrow if I can access them from my university. Geometry guy 23:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Support. As co-nominator and a significant contributor, my support may seem obvious and/or superfluous. However I would like to take this opportunity to say that the vast bulk of the credit here has to go to my co-nominators, who have put in all the hard work, not only in searching for sources, but also most recently in undertaking an audacious (and in my view, very successful) wholesale revision of the article structure. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 22:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Comments
Current ref 59 is just a bald link to an external website, it's lacking formatting and publisher and last access date.
- Comment. Congratulations to the authors. Unless I'm mistaken, the article doesn't describe how Vargas Llosa contributed to "The New Novel (La Nueva Novela)", or tell me what the New Novel signified. The concept bookends the article, in the lead and in "Legacy", but ¿dónde está la carne? (apologies for that!). An answer to that may help with the other goal, to expand the section on his legacy. A smaller point: the sentence beginning "Vargas Llosa wrote of Arguedas's that it was..." seems to be missing a word, or else the implied thing being possessed is just not clear to me. –Outriggr § 02:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - Oppose because the main source of information is in Spanish, without any translation, and there is no way for me to verify their credibility, thus, there is no way for a large bulk of English Wikipedia users to verify the information. Blind faith is not acceptable for a FA. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)- Conditional Support - Condition: direct quotes with translations provided for verification are provided so that at least 90% of the sources can be potential read/interpreted by all users. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Question - Are these originally in Spanish - Armas, Boland, Campos, Fernández, Igartua, Lamb, Morote, Setti, Vargas Llosa, Williams? If so, I can't in good faith approve of this article. Wikipedia English relies on English sources so that others can verify them. Foreign language sources should be used only in rare cases. The sources I listed make up most of your references. I cannot check them, therefore, they don't meet Wikipedia's verifiability criteria. If you can find an English translation of your sources, please do. If not, then I will be forced to oppose. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is not a valid oppose. While English language sources are preferred, they are not always the best (i.e., most comprehensive) sources nor are they always available. Vargas Llosa is a Latin American novelist, and it stands to reason that much of the literary criticism and biographies of him would be in Spanish, his native language and the language of his novels. The sources used can be verified, they will just need to be translated. Karanacs (talk) 03:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Its not an oppose, its a question. Furthermore, verifiability has always been a valid use. English Wikipedia requires English sources. Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources You have to follow these guidelines: "Where editors use non-English sources, they should ensure that readers can verify for themselves the content of the original material and the reliability of its author/publisher. Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others might challenge, or translate any direct quote, they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors." Furthermore, primary editors are not allowed to say a "question" is not "a valid oppose". Ottava Rima (talk) 03:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Considering we have had expert in the field consulting on this article (Jbmurray) and every effort has been made to find sources in both English and Spanish, I think we can be assured that the research is exhaustive here. This issue was raised on the FA-Team talk page somewhere as an over-riding issue for all of the articles in the Murder, Madness, and Mayhem project. It was decided that English sources would be preferred, but Spanish sources would be brought in when necessary. As Karanacs makes clear, much of the scholarship written on this Latin American writer is going to be in Spanish - we should not exclude it because it is in Spanish. If we are lucky enough to have editors who can read the scholarship and include information from it, we should do so. The article will better fulfill the comprehensiveness and reliable source criteria. Jbmurray provided translations for another article - perhaps he would be willing to do so again if we asked politely. Awadewit (talk) 04:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- A self testified expert does not justify the use of a foreign language link that the mass of Wikipedians can verify. There are guidelines to foreign sources, and the page has not shown that it is attempting to meet those guidelines. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:37, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- If you ask politely, well, of course I would! :)
- As someone who is not a primary editor of the article (though Primary editors most certainly can bring up concerns that an oppose isn't valid), I agree with Awadewit. Spanish sources aren't a valid reason to oppose unless it can be shown that there are English sources out there that are equivalent or better. Given the subject matter, I find it highly likely that the best sources would be Spanish and take Awadewit's word that thorough work has been done. Wrad (talk) 04:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, foreign language sources need to have direct quotes with direct translation per the verifiability rules. Sorry, but this is the English Wikipedia for a reason. It will be perfectly acceptable on the Spanish Wikipedia. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:37, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Jbmurray has just kindly offered above to do the translations you requested. Awadewit (talk) 04:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Then there will be no other objections from me after such is done. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Jbmurray has just kindly offered above to do the translations you requested. Awadewit (talk) 04:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- "Where editors use a non-English source to support material that others might challenge, or translate any direct quote, they need to quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article, so readers can check that it agrees with the article content." SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)