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I know what to do about dead links, but what should I do about links like this--not dead, but bad? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.176.166.65|86.176.166.65]] ([[User talk:86.176.166.65|talk]]) 13:30, 25 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
I know what to do about dead links, but what should I do about links like this--not dead, but bad? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.176.166.65|86.176.166.65]] ([[User talk:86.176.166.65|talk]]) 13:30, 25 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== IP edit-warring hatchet job "fansite" into [[Armageddon (MUD)]] == |
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{{IP|68.80.95.140}} appears determined that [[Armageddon (MUD)]] needs to have the elink from ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Armageddon_(MUD)&diff=494234158&oldid=490937234], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Armageddon_(MUD)&diff=494356603&oldid=494251547], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Armageddon_(MUD)&diff=494365403&oldid=494362354], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Armageddon_(MUD)&diff=494375612&oldid=494373078]) in it. This was a clear [[WP:ELNO]] just based on the way he described it, as a random "player fansite", but that was actually a lie. The "site", such as it is, is there to host a PR attack on the MUD that's the article's topic, its only real content being a diatribe against the MUD's admins that ends up telling people which of the MUD's competitors they should go play instead. So, yeah. I'm at 3RR on it, so would somebody else be so kind as to take over? Thanks. (Warning: you'll note that I have been entirely less than civil to the IP. Feel free to advise me not to cuss at the trolls.) [[User:Chaos5023|—chaos5023]] ([[User talk:Chaos5023|talk]]) 23:18, 25 May 2012 (UTC) |
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local clubs and societies
At the Congleton talk page I've questioned the need for including links to 2 local societies. The links I removed were the Congleton fly tying club and the Congleton Choral Society as I believe the main purpose in including them is to promote both societies, both of which charge for their activities. In general what is the consensus regarding such local societies? Valenciano (talk) 22:13, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- They should not be included as the primary purpose of linking them on Wikipedia is to drive traffic to the site and promote the organizations. ICYTIGER'SBLOOD 04:18, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- You seem to be unfairly deciding what an editor's (or more likely editors') motivation has been for adding those links. I have not added them, but if I had I would simply want to illustrate where such activities/ amenities exist. I can't help it if the choral society has organised a concert that costs "18 quid a ticket". I have no wish to "drive traffic" anywhere. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:15, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd say WP:ELNO#EL19, except that it seems nobody yet thinks them important enough to even mention in passing in the article. There are several inappropriate links in that article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:39, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- If one wished to add into the text that amateur flying and choral singing organisations exist in the town, with which links would one support such claims? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:15, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd say WP:ELNO#EL19, except that it seems nobody yet thinks them important enough to even mention in passing in the article. There are several inappropriate links in that article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:39, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- As always, with secondary sources, not primary ones. If secondary sources haven't found the presence of those in the town to be notable, then they shouldn't be included. Personally I'm very doubtful that the average person who reads the Congleton article in an international encyclopedia is all that bothered about the existence of a fly tying club there. Valenciano (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- Would it shock you if people in Congleton used wikipedia to find out more about their town? Or is that not what an international encyclopedia is for? Here's an example of a secondary source for the Choral Society: [1] and here's one for the Fly Tying Club [2]. I would have thought that a fly tying club was quite unusual and possibly worthy of mention in the text. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- As always, with secondary sources, not primary ones. If secondary sources haven't found the presence of those in the town to be notable, then they shouldn't be included. Personally I'm very doubtful that the average person who reads the Congleton article in an international encyclopedia is all that bothered about the existence of a fly tying club there. Valenciano (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- If they used it to find out more about their town, no. If they used it to find out if there was a fly tying club in their town, definitely yes. Google would be the natural first stop for people searching for that I'd expect. I don't see either of those two links that you provide above as being reliable secondary sources. Valenciano (talk) 13:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think Google would be the first stop in the search for a plumber, or a fishing tackle shop. But I think many would expect to find the clubs and scocieties of a small town mentioned in Wikipedia. Perhaps that's an unreasonable expectation. Yes, the second link looks a little unreliable, perhaps more of a blog. I haven't really searched for the best. But why do you think the first site is not a reliable source? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:25, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- But then where do you draw the line? If we include the fly tying club and choral society then why not the rugby club, the chess club, the bridge club, the hockey club, the karate club or the cricket club? Since we'd then be in the business of linking all the various leisure pursuits we'd also have to link any bingo halls, pubs and clubs in the town, since who are we to judge that spending your time in a choir is somehow more worthwhile than having a drink with your mates? The various restaurants and cafes would have to go in too to be fair. Also since we'd have those businesses, why not the various doctors, dentists, hospitals etc and there, voila, we have a massive link farm which violates WP:NOTDIR. Valenciano (talk) 19:38, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think you are exagerrating just a tiny bit there. I'm not really sure why. I'm not really demanding that this article should become a mini-Thompson's directory for Congleton. I was suggesting that two links - one for the Choral Society and one for the Fly Tying Club - should be kept. And I don't even play the viola. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:55, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- Why those and not the others? If you include those how can you justify excluding the rest? Valenciano (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think Wikipedia should advertise dentists. I don't see that local businesses can be seen as hobbies. I don't think a bridge club would be notable. I agree it's far easier to allow none. But it's not necessarily better. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:10, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- Why those and not the others? If you include those how can you justify excluding the rest? Valenciano (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think you are exagerrating just a tiny bit there. I'm not really sure why. I'm not really demanding that this article should become a mini-Thompson's directory for Congleton. I was suggesting that two links - one for the Choral Society and one for the Fly Tying Club - should be kept. And I don't even play the viola. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:55, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- But then where do you draw the line? If we include the fly tying club and choral society then why not the rugby club, the chess club, the bridge club, the hockey club, the karate club or the cricket club? Since we'd then be in the business of linking all the various leisure pursuits we'd also have to link any bingo halls, pubs and clubs in the town, since who are we to judge that spending your time in a choir is somehow more worthwhile than having a drink with your mates? The various restaurants and cafes would have to go in too to be fair. Also since we'd have those businesses, why not the various doctors, dentists, hospitals etc and there, voila, we have a massive link farm which violates WP:NOTDIR. Valenciano (talk) 19:38, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
(deindent) Personally I'd be more interested in a bridge club than a fly tying one but that's precisely my point. It seems inconsistent to insist that one is included but not the other. Therefore both should be excluded. Valenciano (talk) 13:43, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- Which others would you say are inappropriate? Valenciano (talk) 07:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- Nearly all of them are not really appropriate I think the only one to keep would be the council website most of the others are just acting as a web directory and are not really adding content to the article. MilborneOne (talk) 12:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- On the question of how to source information about activities in the town: The article asserts the existence of several local newspapers. I'd say that any of them would make a fine source, and that any club that could get a full article written about it in one of those (not just a "Ladies' club meets Thursdays in the church hall" routine notice or a description solely about a performance, fundraiser, or activity by the club) could be mentioned. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:09, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- There is always dmoz - info about local groups etc can go in there (if dmoz editors approve), and dmoz can be linked from Wikipedia (if appropriate). I asked about this in a thread above, and though I'm not sure if such a link (from Wikipedia to dmoz) is necessarily a good thing, it must surely be preferable to a large link farm at the bottom of the article. Actually you surprise me Martin - I'd always had you down as a viola player.... PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:49, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's very fair and sensible advice, thanks Whatwereyouthinking, although the online versions of the Congleton Chronicle and The Sentinel don't immediately seem to have anything on flies or choirs. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see a huge tidal wave of support for my position here. So I propose that this discussion stays open a few more days. After that, if there is no major change in consensus, I'm quite happy with whatever deletion is deemed appropriate. Is that fair? But while we're here - there are a few other points that I'm still unsure of. How does the size of a town or village affect things? If a small village has a cricket club with its own website does that make it any more notable than one in a sizable town? Indeed are cricket clubs always deemed acceptable - there are an awful lot of cricket clubs and football clubs in the External Links for UK articles all across Wikipedia. If a club holds a fund-raising event should any link immediately be deleted, because it's now "commercial spam"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- There's no rush to close this and I'd also like further clarification on this. Valenciano (talk) 13:43, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see a huge tidal wave of support for my position here. So I propose that this discussion stays open a few more days. After that, if there is no major change in consensus, I'm quite happy with whatever deletion is deemed appropriate. Is that fair? But while we're here - there are a few other points that I'm still unsure of. How does the size of a town or village affect things? If a small village has a cricket club with its own website does that make it any more notable than one in a sizable town? Indeed are cricket clubs always deemed acceptable - there are an awful lot of cricket clubs and football clubs in the External Links for UK articles all across Wikipedia. If a club holds a fund-raising event should any link immediately be deleted, because it's now "commercial spam"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- Although theoretically we're neutral on that point (as well as whether something is "commercial": both commercial and non-commercial spam is forbidden), size matters in the end, because we try to limit EL sections to six or eight (sometimes ten) links total. There are naturally more potential links for a very large city than for a small village. So a very tiny place might only have a couple of potential links, in which case you might (or might not) decide that it's reasonable to include all of them. But a very large city would have hundreds or perhaps thousands of potential links, and you could not possibly include all of them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:50, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- I can see the sense in limiting article size. And if a club or society is really notable it should be in the text. Althogh I suspect there will be plenty of discussion about what constitutes "local notability". I see at Congleton that someone has already assumed that this discussion has closed. I'm not arguing, but I guess I was just expecting to see some kind of conclusion drawn here first. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:26, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- No the discussion is still open, but with a week and a half having passed, it's clear that consensus is to remove those links. The only question now is what to do with the others. Valenciano (talk) 13:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- And you also said above that you'd like "further clarification" on this. And I think I would too. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:34, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- No the discussion is still open, but with a week and a half having passed, it's clear that consensus is to remove those links. The only question now is what to do with the others. Valenciano (talk) 13:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
The Criterion Collection
A new editor has been adding external links to a lot of articles pointing to The Criterion Collection website. Another editor noticed it (as I did) and posted a message on the new editor's Talk page. As you can see, the new editor seems well-intentioned, so I just asked him to stop adding the links until after the results of this discussion. I know nothing about Criterion, although we do have an article on it (The Criterion Collection). My guess is it's okay and that the red flags are a normal reaction to someone new making a lot of changes all at once. Should I tell the new editor it's okay?--Bbb23 (talk) 00:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- A lot of other editors link to the Criterion film site. I didn't notice anything greatly inappropriate about the content added by the user to each article, so I did not undo it, but it seems strange for one editor to work so hard adding very many links to one site over a short period of time, especially since the editor doesn't seem to make other edits to the articles I am watching. Also the editor is sometimes altering links to a canonical form, which makes it look as if the editor is associated with the company Criterion, otherwise why would the editor know so much about Criterion's link system? JoshuSasori (talk) 01:23, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- At first glance this smells like spam, but assuming it is well intended, i still don't quite see why such links would be particularly suited for external links. They seem to carry relatively little information about a film (far less than the IMDB, or various notable film (critic) sites) and are commercial. A few exception aside I don't see how they fulfill the requirement of WP:EL not by longshot.--Kmhkmh (talk) 02:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I've removed Criterion Collection links in the past, depending on what was at the end of the link. Sometimes it is promotional puff. I don't think blanket-adding the links like this is very useful, and it is just one user, who seems to have very good knowledge of the Criterion site, and doesn't really add anything else. JoshuSasori (talk) 02:26, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Arana-Southern Treaty
The article Arana-Southern Treaty is about a treaty that ended the Anglo-French blockade of the Río de la Plata, a XIX century conflict between Argentina and the United Kingdom. Although the conflict was not related to the Falkland Islands, some historians think that it may influence it.
The article includes several external links at the end. I removed them because, with the exception of the first one, and the "Historia de las Relaciones Exteriores Argentinas..." one (which I turned into a footnote) the others are merely generic links to "history of the falklands" pages, which do not contain a single mention of the treaty. I think that such pages go against WP:ELNO item 13 (same as if we include generic pages of Argentine history). However, the author of the article, Nigelpwsmith, insists to restore them. I would appreciate uninvolved opinions. Cambalachero (talk) 18:21, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- User Cambalachero insists on claiming that the above Treaty was derogated. He provided a link to a foreign history page provided by the Argentine Government, but he is unable to provide any proof that the Treaty was derogated. The Treaty was added to Wikisource by the British Government and is still in effect. It has been quoted by numerous sources as proof that the Argentine Government acquiesced on British sovereignty of the Falkland Islands. I believe that Cambalachero is making alterations without any validation or corroboration to support the Argentine position which is untenable. I have repeatedly asked him to desist from making these alterations and even suggested that if he feels strongly about his points he should alter the Argentine Wikipedia only, but not the English version.
- He has included some interesting information which improves the overall article. However, his actions recently have been nothing more than unsupported vandalism to support a political and national point of view which can not be validated or supported by external documents in the UK. In fact, I do have documents in the UK which support the claims I've made. http://www.mediafire.com/view/?c4mn3cd8sb4mc1i Nigelpwsmith (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Title: "False Falklands history at the United Nations: How Argentina misled the UN in 1964 - and still does". Do you really think that's a neutral and unbiased document? With links like those, you merely weaken your own arguments. Yes, there is Argentine nationalism towards the islands, but there is British nationalism as well. Cambalachero (talk) 18:43, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes the reference does present the facts from the British point of view and the view of the Islanders, but it highlights the deliberate lies put forward from the Argentine side. User Cambalachero is admitting the Argentine nationalism towards the islands and in the documents. The British documents show a different version of the truth. The page was added to Wikipedia the Arana-Southern Treaty, because it shows a glaring omission by not including the history of the treaty and what it says about the legal position with respect to Argentina's claims. However, nothing which Camalachero has provided shows any proof that the treaty was derogated in any way. He makes unsupportable claims that it was when it was not and then tries to say that at least he has external links - when those external links are biased and incomplete, belonging as they do to the Argentine Government (or rather an Argentine educational establishment).Nigelpwsmith (talk) 19:57, 15 May 2012 (UTC) I re-iterate, there is no proof that this treaty was derogated by the British. I accept that the Treaty was not added to Wikisource by the British Government, but it was added from Volume 37 of the British and foreign state papers - a verifiable source. Nigelpwsmith (talk) 18:59, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
I accept that both sides to this dispute have strong nationalistic claims. However, Cambalachero has to provide proof that the Treaty was derogated by Britain - otherwise his alterations are just unsupportable claims. Even the Argentine Government source does not show that the Treaty was derogated by the British. Merely that diplomats discussed it. Diplomats discuss a lot of things, but it is Governments that make pronouncements on Treaties and this treaty is still in effect. Nigelpwsmith (talk) 19:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- As neither side is willing to agree on the point of the derogation, I would like to make the following proposal to Wikipedia. Either Cambalachero provides the proof that the British Goverment derogated the treaty, or the paragraph on derogation is removed altogether and the document locked. Nigelpwsmith (talk) 19:09, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Can I also suggest that User Cambalachero creates a separate page titled the 'Hotham Mission Saint Georges (August 1852)' and reference that to the Argentine source and remove the Derogation section of the Arana-Southern Treaty. Nigelpwsmith (talk) 19:33, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think you're in the wrong place. This page is for discussing the links that are underneath the ==External links== section heading. There should be no "paragraphs" or "Derogation sections" underneath that heading. I suspect that you need to be at a different noticeboard. Try WP:RSN, WP:NPOVN, or WP:DRN instead. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:53, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, that's the reason why I came here, because of the links in the "external links" section. Nigelpwsmith mixed all things toguether, and yes, I got carried by him in my second reply, but I agree: the discussion here should be limited to the external links. As I explained, most of them do not contain a single mention of the topic of the article and should be removed, but he disagrees, so I would like some uninvolved opinion. Only on the links, everything else may be discussed at the article talk page Cambalachero (talk) 20:02, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi, we're still arguing about what belongs to the External links section and what not... see this for example. Is this the right place to ask? Cheers! --Langus (t) 17:24, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think certain parties have been somewhat disingenuous with this posting. Some of the links Nigel posted did not make reference to the Arana-Southern treaty but the two main ones do so extensively. Those links that they wish to have removed are because they are, they claim, "biased". One at least was written in rebuttal to an Argentine document, which they wish to include, and both contain details of the background establishing relevance of the treaty and the Falklands dispute. Neither present an exclusively British position but include details of Argentine and Latin American historians who make the same link. We have a relatively new editor here, Nigel, with his first article and two editors trying to wikilawyer content out of the article they appear to dislike; content that just happens to contradct the claims made by Argentina in its modern sovereignty claim. He needs some mentoring as to how wikipedia works, instead he has two established editors chewing at his ankles. Wee Curry Monster talk 07:17, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- You're fighting a straw man again: no one said that the problem with the links was neutrality. The problem is that that they're not directly related to the Arana-Southern Treaty: they're about the Falklands dispute. It's pretty basic really. What Cambalachero and myself are trying to do is to keep the article as neutral as possible, as it begun as a coat rack and we're finally getting there.
- I'll repeat the explanation given by Cambalachero: "The article Arana-Southern Treaty is about a treaty that ended the Anglo-French blockade of the Río de la Plata, a XIX century conflict between Argentina and the United Kingdom. Although the conflict was not related to the Falkland Islands, some historians think that it may influence it."
- And these are the links currently disputed in the External links section:
- They are not directly related to the article's subject. They are even used as references for the section about the relation with the dispute, which is fine, but the External links section is for something else.
- Regards. --Langus (t) 11:48, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- If they have been used as references in the article then they should not appear again in the external links section. MilborneOne (talk) 11:58, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- What strawman? Do you really think that's a neutral and unbiased document? the very comment used by your colleague to argue for link removal. No straw man on my part, though you're trying to take the discussion down a rabbit hole.
- Those external links are very much directly related, they both discuss at length the implications of the Arana-Southern treaty. Their use is appropriate. Wee Curry Monster talk 14:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- My initial comment was about the several links that did not make any mention at all about the treaty. That case is now settled, as those links are already gone by now. Accuracy, neutrality, length of explanation of the topic, are more specific discussions, but a very basic requirement for external links is that they at least mention the topic of the article. Very basic common sense... but a user crying "Argentine bias!" each time someone corrects his messes (even his copyright violations) does not help, so instead of replying to him in his terms I opted to simply request someone else's opinion. But again, the original request may be archived, as the links I mentioned are gone and this guy is not currently shouting about an Argentine conspiracy because the links are gone. Cambalachero (talk) 21:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused about the apparent double standards here.
Silk Road, which sells narcotics, is linked to, but it's apparently been decided that the Hidden Wiki and other content containing child pornography should not be, because it's illegal. [[3]] That makes a deal of sense, but apparently it doesn't apply to The Silk Road, because er, well, we don't want people buying drugs to get scammed, and that trumps legality concerns? Hmm. [[4]]
Suara Gondang (talk) 13:07, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello. We have an argument about appropriateness of some external links in the above article. I explained my position at Talk:Victor Schnirelmann. I would appreciate a third party opinion about this issue. Best regards, Grandmaster 19:59, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Irrelevant external link
In the article "Townes Van Zandt", the eleventh footnote has an external link which links to something completely irrelevant.
I know what to do about dead links, but what should I do about links like this--not dead, but bad? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.166.65 (talk) 13:30, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
IP edit-warring hatchet job "fansite" into Armageddon (MUD)
68.80.95.140 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) appears determined that Armageddon (MUD) needs to have the elink from ([5], [6], [7], [8]) in it. This was a clear WP:ELNO just based on the way he described it, as a random "player fansite", but that was actually a lie. The "site", such as it is, is there to host a PR attack on the MUD that's the article's topic, its only real content being a diatribe against the MUD's admins that ends up telling people which of the MUD's competitors they should go play instead. So, yeah. I'm at 3RR on it, so would somebody else be so kind as to take over? Thanks. (Warning: you'll note that I have been entirely less than civil to the IP. Feel free to advise me not to cuss at the trolls.) —chaos5023 (talk) 23:18, 25 May 2012 (UTC)