- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- making the "religiosity", "irreligion", statistics, names, and bar chart changes:
Dispute overview
Well, for starters, the article presents the KONDA reasearch which states 2.3% agnostics and 0.9% atheists. In the nature of other Religion in Europe articles (all articles use irreligion; not that I'm the fan of the WP:OSE), I asked that those be incorporated into the 3.2% irreligious. However, not only that my proposal was left undiscussed on the talk page, but Saguamundi also requested the article's protection. So, not that it's only content dispute, it's also user conduct dispute (for not discussing and practically using WP:OWN). Please, help us resolve these disputes.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Edit warring (wasn't the best idea), temporally full protection (didn't help), discussion on talk page (Saguamundi didn't want to discuss - at all), help desk...
How do you think we can help?
Firstly, you could 'convince' Saguamundi to act properly and be a good Wikipedian discussing rather than edit warring (plus WP:OWN). Secondly, you could help me/us determine whether atheism and agnosticism should be unified as irreligion or not. Thirdly, you could find the third, compromising (and maybe creative) idea, so that everyone would be happy and satisfied.
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
First of all, I'm NOT an "involved user". So, why am I being dragged into this? All I did was to revert once a suspicious chart with no external source and numbers that did not correspond to what the article said. I requested the citation. The uploader corrected his mistake and appologized in his edit summary; I let go of it, end of story. However, KONDA Research is a private company from Turkey (not from Poland) involved only in polling and data collection. It is one of over a dozen such companies in Turkey earning a living by research in Social Sciences and Humanities.[1] I wonder why the charts are posted everywhere around (from Albania to Norway), even if the actual data isn't new or differs from the equally reliable local sources? Is there a possible COI behind this unusual push for mass inclussion of KONDA results in Wikipedia? And why is a dynamic IP doing the posting instead of a registered user? There must be a better way of doing this, without giving grief. Poeticbent talk 15:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've also had not been involved in the Religion in Turkey article; however, I have been involved in the Religion in Norway article and was considering bringing up the problem there though I was awaiting a discussion in Talk:Religion in Norway. Namely the renaming and shoehorning of cited statistics into a bar graph which I think misleads people. The same seems to be happening in the Turkey article (with the addition that the stats however munged apparently don't seem to come from the given reference). As an aside I find irreligion as a term inappropriate and vague for what is included under it; it is too strong a word to apply to the merely non-religious. It is not used very much as far as I can see in modern scholarly research and most of those uses are for specific historical periods when the term was in use. The Library of Congress has a sum total of at most 67 works classified as being about 'irreligion' (the search would also find use in notes or title) which means their definition of it must be quite narrow and far narrower than its current use in Wikipedia. --Erp (talk) 04:34, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Religion in Turkey discussion
Discussion
I will wait for the other party to comment. Page protection is never the solution to a dispute, and atheism is different than irreligion. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 00:48, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! I'm a DRN volunteer and am awaiting an opening statement by Saguamundi. Electric Catfish 21:25, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As long as there is already some chat here, I would like to interject. Agnosticism and irreligion are unrelated (see Agnostic theism). Thus uniting agnostics and atheists you get a set of people who are not necessarily irreligious; renaming atheists to irreligious you get a set of people, which is smaller then amount of irreligious. Statistics is all about it: the way the question is posed severely limits ability of data manipulation. That is why the community-wide RfCs are normally prepared for quite a lot of time. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 02:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That isn't what the irreligion says. It clearly includes 'all the possibilities' (of course not agnostic theism; it's theism, so belief is present; agnostics we talk about here are agnostic atheists). You got me confused with the part of the way question is posed? This all seems lake a misunderstanding to me. Could someone write what irreligion is and what it isn't? Is article lying? Regarding the informations it contains, irreligious are - atheists, secular humanists (mostly atheists), antitheists (atheists again), anticlericalists (wide group; from atheists to SBNR), antireligionists (wide group again), apatheists, ignostics, nontheists (wide group; discluding nontheistic religions), religious skeptics, etc... However, those actually sum up almost only to atheists and (agnostic) atheists. So, is it OK to count atheists and agnostics as irreligious or not (my guess is yes)? 93.87.210.14 (talk) 05:09, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe that irreligion is lying, as it uses word "agnostic" in sense of "agnostic atheist". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- What to do in that case? Nominate irreligion for speedy (kidding of course)? However, these issues must be checked, since there are some conflicting definitions (as I 'got a hold of them') that need to be adressed, so they don't cause confusion. Either way, the 'opening' comment is still pretty much needed. 93.87.210.14 (talk) 10:06, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I partly agree with Poeticbent. The volounteer added all of you (who clearly have nothing to do with Religion in Turkey dispute; I actually already explained that). As for 'KONDA agenda', it could be prestent (but only in Religion in Turkey), since (read Religion in Turkey's talk and hisory pages) Saguamundi was one instisting (for several years) "stick to KONDA", "we better stick to KONDA", etc. I posted a question on help desk regarding major Wikipedia justice I experienced in these few days [2]. So, KONDA's present only in Religion in Turkey, so no 'KONDA agenda' is present. 93.86.129.66 (talk) 18:41, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- You know, filing requests on the same topic in different places is discouraged on Wikipedia. Such practice is usually referred to as "forum shopping". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:02, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That was mainly regarding the other user conduct dispute (no relations with this one). 178.223.204.153 (talk) 04:45, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How exactly would you derive the amount of "irreligious" in the "Religion in Turkey"? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Big sorries for not being able to comment earlier. As for irreligious in Turkey, according to the updated terminology used by KONDA (thank you for doing that, since I wasn't able to access the archive), it would be only 0.9%. I'm confused about those 2.3%. They don't seem to be the agnostic atheist. Are they just people not going to church/mosque, Muslims not doing obligatory prayer? Or maybe some of these: agnostic theists, believers without religion (Ietsers and SBNR)? Any further specification (non-believer is imprecise, and is Arabic term (Kafir) used to denote all non-Muslims)? Either way(s), all those don't belong to Irreligion, but to respective religions (agnostic theists, Ietsers and SBNR usually identify with one of the religions (see respective articles)). A for bar box, new one would contain: 98.4% Islam (what's left after everything else is counted in), 0.9% Irreligion/Atheism (KONDA) and 0.7% Others (referenced and present in the beginning of the article). In that case, Atheism could be a better choice (same as with Serbia, Romania, Luxembourg, Russia, Belarus etc.). However, Irreligion is still the best choice for Germany, France, Sweden, Norway (unless the article renaming), the Netherlands, Latvia, etc, etc... So, since it's the most appropriate term for the most Religion in Europe articles, I though that it would be good to use Irreligion for all, so that there is consistency present. Also, readers would be able to compare the information more easily, since the same terms would be used. Thoughts? 178.223.215.93 (talk) 11:14, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- See, this particular classification is very uncommon and difficult to match against common variants. So even if the policy would allow to state own analysis of sources (WP:OR forbids this), any particular option would constitute improper synthesis, as all of the groups the source uses includes irreligious (eg. anticlericals are "non-believers", while agnostic-theists may be "believers", "religious" or "fully devouts"). We just can't report the sources the way that misrepresents their findings, so unless there'll be some source that would group various flavors of "irreligious" into single group, we just can't use the word "irreligious".
- That said, inconsistency between articles is a problem indeed. Still, in the lack of consistency within sources all we can do is to give an explanatory note, stating that the classification in this particular article doesn't match that in other articles. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- OK. Sadly, thing aren't always black and white (talking about Wikipedia (in)consistency here; present in all the other printed encyclopedias). So, should I start renaming "Irreligion" to "Atheism" where it's applicable as so (Serbia, Russia, Luxembourg, etc.) or should I wait for other opinions, if any? I still am kind of a beginner. Nevertheless, after closing all the discussions here on English Wikipedia (there are a few left excluding this), I'll start (as a registered user) on Serbian Wikipedia, translating English articles, so don't except me to "intrude" here on the religion again, EVER. 178.223.223.170 (talk) 21:52, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Acually, after a little thought, I think we should wait a few days (why we couldn't), since I remember some users, such as BigNate37 (talk · contribs), Electriccatfish2 (talk · contribs) and Ebe123 (talk · contribs) promised they'll join in the discussion. I'll left them notes on their respective talk pages. 178.223.223.170 (talk) 22:02, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Still here. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 22:15, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- (Still here), not giving us your piece of mind? What's the sitch? Sagaumundi's comment isn't to be excepted (disregarding the fact he's not the "problem" now). It actually is crucial to have as many thoughts as possible (including yours, of those I sent the note to, and all the other available volounteers). Please, comment. Disputes involving the whole Wikipedia can't be solved obly by two users (me and Czarkoff in this case). 178.223.223.170 (talk) 23:15, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Sure we can wait. I would say we should wait, as is quite possible that some more appropriate solution would be found. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 22:25, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say that, after reading our discussion again, I think we solved everything except "humanism". Now, the results are:
- For Saguamundi (talk · contribs), nothing is to be taken againsts him.
- For "Irreligion" and "No religion", it should be written as the source says.
- For "(Secular) Humanism", discussion is still ahead.
I'll start changing the terms and report back here.
77.46.175.85 (talk) 11:58, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now → EUR (Irreligion → Atheism), ALB (no chart), AND (no chart), ARM (no disputed terms), AUT (stayed Irreligion), AZE (no disputed terms), BLR (help needed), BEL (Irreligion → Atheism), BIH (no disputed terms), BGR (help needed), CRO (Irreligion → Atheism), CYP (no disputed terms), CZE (Irreligion → No religion), DNK (Irreligion → No religion), EST (Irreligion → No religion), FIN (Irreligion → No religion), ITA (Irreligion → No religion), IRL (Irreligion → No religion), KAZ (Irreligion → Atheism), ISL (Irreligion → No religion), HUN (Irreligion → No religion), GRC (no disputed terms), GER (Irreligion → No religion), GEO (no disputed terms), FRA (Irreligion → No religion). Still lots to go, but I need a break. Please, help with Belarus and Bulgaria. 77.46.175.85 (talk) 12:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've checked the contributions of editors, whose opening statements are missing: all of them were active after receiving the notification, so there is no sense in waiting for their comments to come. If nobody disagrees, I'll close this case as "resolved". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:51, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, first see what I'm doing and if it's right. Continuing → LVA (Irreligion → No religion), LIE (no disputed terms), LTU (Irreligion → No religion), LUX (Irreligion → Atheism), MKD (no disputed terms), MLT (no chart), MDA (no disputed terms), MCO (no chart), MNE (no disputed terms), NLD (need help), NOR (discussion still going on), POL (stayed Irreligion), PRT (is that vandalism?), ROU (no disputed terms), RUS (Irreligion → Atheism), SMR (no disputed terms), SRB (Irreligion → Atheism), SVK (Irreligion → No religion; help, atricle's confusing and misleading), SVN (Irreligion → Atheism; help, article is totally vandalized), ESP (Irreligion → No religion), SWE (Irreligion → Atheism), CHE (stayed Irreligion; maybe erroneously), TUR (no chart), UKR (Unaffiliated seems good enough), GBR (everything's clear), ENG (no chart), WLS (Irreligion → No religion), NIR (Irreligion → No religion), KSV (no disputed terms) and, finally, ABK (None → No religion). 77.46.175.85 (talk) 14:00, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So, I just need help with Belarus, Bulgaria, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal (sources???), Slovakia (confusing and misleading) and Slovenia (it's either atheo-vandalized or unreferenced). 77.46.175.85 (talk) 14:00, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Please, don't close the discussion before checking if everything's alright and helping me with forementioned articles. Thanks, 77.46.175.85 (talk) 14:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- This discussion should be closed when there is no further dispute to resolve. Is that the case here? The discussion about helping you with the articles should go on the article talk pages --Guy Macon (talk) 16:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Answered questions
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The first question (user misconduct)
The first question is: Is it appropriate for Saguamundi (talk · contribs) to get a warning for his misconduct and violation of WP: 3RR, WP: OWN and WP: BRD? Note: It has to be done by someone else, since I, as an IP user, can't do it myself. Answer the forementioned question (in bold) and explain your stance, please. 178.223.204.153 (talk) 04:38, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- My answer is yes since he didn't do too little for nothing, nor too much for ban. 178.223.204.153 (talk) 04:38, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Please note that the DRN is only about content, not conduct. There's a note at the top of the page about that. ANI is there for user conduct. Ravensfire (talk) 04:45, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I know, but it was already mentioned by volounteer Electric Catfish, so I couldn't just ignore it. Would this one exception hurt (the system)? Please!!! This is a case for WP:IAR!!! 178.223.204.153 (talk) 04:47, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, as this was already previously discussed, I'll answer: no, I see no grounds for issuing any warnings. Saguamundi performed exactly 3 reverts withing 3 days, thus not breaking WP:3RR, explaining his position in edit summaries. Though it would be nice of him to actually answer your comment on the talk page, he wasn't obliged to. I see no violation of WP:OWN, and WP:BRD is an essay, so we can't emit warnings based on it. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 09:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, then, I change my yes to no, since this issue isn't the major one. Also, Saguamundi (talk · contribs) won't be able to re-add his bar "KONDA bar box", since it actually was a kind of guesstimate. Nevertheless, he's been active today and should be urged to join the discussion, so concensus could be reached. 178.223.223.170 (talk) 13:51, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The second question (irreligion)
The second question is: Is it appropriate to use irreligion as all-in-one term in bar boxes, pie charts, etc, which would, per its definition, include atheists, agnostics (agnostic atheists), secular humanists and other belief systems which either reject, deny, or somehow else (ignosticism) dismiss belief of deities, God or life spirit? Note: It would obviously exclude non-theistic religions and belief systems containig some supernatural/faith elements (deism and agnostic theism; however, these group are least likely to be counted in any census, survey or research in reasonable percent (which wouldn't show up as 0.00%); same goes for (almost unambiguously irreligious) ignosticims). Answer the forementioned question (in bold) and explain your stance, please. 178.223.204.153 (talk) 04:20, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- My answer is yes, since all the forementioned belief systems clearly state that supernatural stuff doesn't exist, that it can't be proven, and/or that it can't be concluded without the 'more specified' definition (though this is irrelevant, since ignosticism isn't to be found in any study as of today), thus effectively making the Irreligious group a valid one, which, while having some significant belief differences, implicate to the very same thing (already noted in Irreligion article/definition). Also, in case of Religion in Norway (only one including humanism), the information (which include humanism) aren't disturbed by the bar box containing only Irreligion. As it already was said, humanism isn't a religion, so only way (a great one for me) of giving it it's own bar is renaming of article to "Religious and life stances in Norway". I fully support the remaning. So, the 13.6% of Norway is irreligious from the religion point. However, from the life stance point, 12.9% are atheists, agnostics, etc, while 1.7% are humanists. Does that suit its purpose, Erp? I'll get the more stances out if needed (but at the earliest after 16:00 UTC). 178.223.204.153 (talk) 04:20, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- No (explained above). — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:44, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The appropriateness of using 'irreligion' is entirely dependent on the reliable sources we have. Our first priority should be to represent the information in our sources as accurately and completely as possible: this is more important than being consistent with the categories included in articles that use different sources. If a particular poll of religious affiliation differentiates agnosticism and atheism, we should present it that way. Whatever the categories provided, and especially if they are not technically religions (regarding the Norway matter of humanism), we should present the information with neutral wording so as to avoid indication of approval or rejection of the sources' chosen categories. To re-label the determinations that poll respondents made is to flirt with intellectual dishonesty, because poll responses depend very much on the exact wording of the alternatives. Let me be clear: we should not speculate on the "actual meaning" of poll responses at all. If it's a matter of massaging the data of one poll to fit the categories used for several other independent and reliable polls, well maybe we ought to apply the spirit of WP:UNDUE: give the poll with non-conforming categories a separate and less prominent mention. BigNate37(T) 01:44, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- As an aside, my first thought was that WikiProject Religion ought to have a say in the matter if we want to see a definitive consensus that isn't going to need reevaluation in a month's time. However, I'm reluctant to just keep adding people to a dispute, but this does seem to fit the bill of a necessary assumption à la WP:MNA. They should be included if and when it's time to settle the matter once for all as implied by WP:MNA. BigNate37(T) 01:49, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The third question (humanism)
The third question is: Do you support the renaming of article "Religion in Norway" to "Religious and life stances in Noway", with making "Religion in Norway" and "Life stances in Norway" as redirects? Answer the forementioned question in bold and explain your stance, please. 178.223.114.175 (talk) 14:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I should point out that in the case of Norway it isn't a poll but religious/life stance registration reported by the government which is why the numbers aren't rounded in the tables (and why I think Humanism should have its own line in the bar chart). One addition to the confusion is that the various sources measure different things: self-religious identity (what people identify themselves as), government or organizational definition of identity (what the government or some other entity such as a church state people are such as 99%+ are Muslim according to the Turkish government though surveys seem to indicate the number is a bit lower), religiosity (how strongly do they abide by their religion's rules which is what the KONDA survey reports on), or particular beliefs (e.g., do you believe in a god). The Pew Forum's survey of American religion and beliefs had some interesting results including the number of self-identified Christians who didn't believe in a god either as a personal or impersonal force (there were also a certain percentage of self-identified atheists who believed in a god). Certain religions such as Judaism and Unitarian Universalism have large numbers of people who would also say they are atheists and also large numbers who say they aren't (another reason why you just can't throw 'atheists' into the 'irreligion' category). I do think we should not close the discussion immediately; it is summer still so interested parties may not be checking frequently. --Erp (talk) 03:49, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I seem to agree with Erp more and more (note (this isn't a typo) that I didn't agree with him at all in the beginning). However, for me, it's against common sense to regard humanism as religion, since it has nothing to do with it (other than the particular stances common to atheism, agnosticism, etc). Even the Norwegian Government groups it, not with "religious organizations", but with "religious and life stance organizations". So, in accordance with Norwegian Government, article should be renamed from "Religion in Norway" to "Religious and life stances in Norway". I'll open this as the third question (talk page was ignored). So, my answers is yes. As for Judaism, hiloni concept is what allows the classification as either (thus never giving us the opportunity to see the real percent of atheist in Israel), which is same as Christian atheism - you're actually an atheist, but no-one can make you not to declare yourself Christian (see PANONIAN's statement on Talk:Religion in Serbia). 178.223.114.175 (talk) 14:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- No way! The fact that the article's content is mainly verified to this specific source doesn't alternate the article's subject. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The text of this discussion does seem to be rearranging itself. My answer is No we do not change the name of the article and we do include humanism in contents. We go by scholarly consensus (not common sense of a few individuals) and though we can use government definitions to develop a consensus we can't use them alone as that would mean groups like Ethical Culture (which like the Norwegian Humanists are members of the International Humanist and Ethical Union) are religions (which they are under US law) since this means A is a religion in one place but not another. In the case of Norway, other than the name the Norwegian Humanist Association is treated like other recognized religious organizations by the government, people register for it in the same way they register for a more standard religion, it receives revenue from the government in the same way as other sufficiently big religions (other than the state church which has some extra privileges) do (and by ranking it is the 3rd largest), it performs rituals such as naming, confirmation, marriage, and funerals and has the legal authority to perform state recognized marriages (which otherwise only certain state officials or members of other sufficiently recognized religions can do). Note the definition of Religion in the wiki article does not include a requirement of belief in anything supernatural, "Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values". How does Norwegian Humanism not fit that definition? Admittedly the talk page (including archives) for Religion has a lot of argument about the definition (the archives especially). --Erp (talk) 16:26, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm the one rearranging it so that there won't be a need for double discussion (repeating what already has been said). I must admit that you got me confused with this one. Do we portray religion as membership in particular organizations or as a subjective view? It it's about membership, article renaming is the best possibility. If it's about subjectivity, face it, (secular) humanists are atheists, agnostics, or whatever (sorry if this was rude; I know it only as a neutral English phrase). Prove me wrong. Also, one of IHEU's strategic aims is "to promote Humanism as a non-theistic life stance throughout the world". Life stance, not religion. 178.223.114.175 (talk) 16:47, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not of much relevance here: the source reports humanists alongside with other categories; given that we are not going to explain the principles and methodology of the source in the article, we should not play with numbers to make them fit any artificial constrains, whatever consistent and practical these constrains may be or seem to be. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I still am skeptical about this one. However, (secular) humanism "isn't" in my domain, so maybe I actually shouldn't "interfere" so much. All the mentioned Humanists are members of the Norwegian Humanist Association, thus effectivelly IHEU, so there shouldn't be confusion about what they are and what they aren't. I'll have to re-think while fixing "no religion". 77.46.175.85 (talk) 11:35, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There could be a problem about this one since consensus isn't to be reached soon, and article's talk page isn't the most visited one. Still, do as you wish. 77.46.175.85 (talk) 14:06, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Nevertheless, I'll actually close tis one and we'll see what will happen on the talk page. 77.46.175.85 (talk) 14:15, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The fourth question (no religion)
The fourth question is (I'll try not to open any more, but this is for discussion's tidiness): Do you support the renaming of "no religion" group in all the Religion in Europe articles to "Irreligion" (Religion in Scotland, for example)? Answer the forementioned question in bold and explain your stance, please. 178.223.114.175 (talk) 14:32, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- My answer is yes, since this one doesn't seem much controversal. Also, everywhere where "no religion" is present, it actually links to Irreligion. 178.223.114.175 (talk) 14:32, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- No, stick with sources in all cases. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 16:02, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- However, how "no religion" isn't "irreligion"? "I" is one of the negating prefixes, and another "r" is added so it wouldn't be read as I-religion. So, "Irreligion" is a synonym of "no religion". Isn't it? 178.223.114.175 (talk) 16:50, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Having no religion isn't equal to not believing in god, supreme power or something else (see Spinozism for example). — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:29, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That seem like pantheism and/or panentheism to me?! 178.223.114.175 (talk) 21:05, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Sure. Still, these words describe the general views, not any particular religion; in fact pantheists (eg. Einstein) ordinarily call themselves non-religious. That is: non-religious equals to not adhering any particular religion, not to having no religious believes. Non-religious + religious ≠ all. This is specifically valid in statistics, when nobody knows the particular understanding of the term by each respondent. That is why rephrasing and/or refactoring data is discouraged on Wikipedia. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Thank you for "further" explaining that to me. I'll start "fixing" "Irreligion" to "No religion" where possible. However, that way, Irreligion will eventually become an (semi-)orphaned article. Thank you also for linking me to the article, since I always thought Einstein was atheist and/or hiloni. 77.46.175.85 (talk) 11:28, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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