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I also noticed that the RIRA article, along with it's opening sentence, has "Oglaigh na hEireann" printed in brackets directly underneath "Real Irish Republican Army" in the infobox, without saying it's an Irish translation. Maybe we could do this with the PIRA page? [[User:Green-Halcyon|Green-Halcyon (formerly Aunty-S)]] ([[User talk:Green-Halcyon|talk]]) 14:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC) |
I also noticed that the RIRA article, along with it's opening sentence, has "Oglaigh na hEireann" printed in brackets directly underneath "Real Irish Republican Army" in the infobox, without saying it's an Irish translation. Maybe we could do this with the PIRA page? [[User:Green-Halcyon|Green-Halcyon (formerly Aunty-S)]] ([[User talk:Green-Halcyon|talk]]) 14:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC) |
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::I don't see how this translation is any different than that for North Korea. Translations usually are not direct translations in any language. There appear to be adequate (it appears to be the Irish language common name for them) sources that give the PIRA the name "Oglaigh na hEireann". [[User:IRWolfie-|IRWolfie-]] ([[User talk:IRWolfie-|talk]]) 14:32, 13 August 2012 (UTC) |
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== The Zeitgeist Movement == |
== The Zeitgeist Movement == |
Revision as of 14:32, 13 August 2012
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Religion in Turkey
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Provisional Irish Republican Army
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Provisional Irish Republican Army (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- SonofSetanta (talk · contribs)
- Domer48 (talk · contribs)
- FergusM1970 (talk · contribs)
- Flexdream (talk · contribs)
- One Night In Hackney (talk · contribs)
- Scolaire (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
The issue is the claiming of the name Óglaigh na hÉireann as the official Irish Gaelic name for the Provisional IRA. My contention, and that of others, is that the name Óglaigh na hÉireann is the official and legal title (in Irish) of the Irish Defence Forces, a state body. This is clearly indicated on their homepage at http://www.military.ie/. A search for Óglaigh na hÉireann on the Wiki confirms my assertion (and that of others) and also that various terrorist organisations have styled themselves as Óglaigh na hÉireann throughout the years. I do not dispute that the Provisional IRA claimed this name as their own and believe it should be included in the article and any other articles concerning Irish terrorist groupings, that this is the case, that they "styled themselves" as Óglaigh na hÉireann. I also believe that the true Irish translation " IRA Sealadach" should be used as the Irish Gaelic translation on all pages concerning the Provisional IRA. This is not being accepted by other editors.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I, and others, have made all editors aware through the talk page what the facts are and have tried to include the information in the article. This has sparked an edit war with several opposing editors.
How do you think we can help?
Dispute resolution can have some experienced and uninvolved editors review the two schools of thought and make a ruling on it which can then be treated as the concensus.
Opening comments by
FergusM1970
It seems clear that, as the name is used by PIRA, it needs to be mentioned in the article. However its present place does give it undue prominence; they're certainly not called that in Ireland, where the term is used to refer to the Irish Defence Forces and PIRA is in any case banned, and in the UK they're always referred to as PIRA or just the IRA. My suggestion would be to remove it from its current location and add an explanation of its use by PIRA elsewhere in the article.--FergusM1970Wikipedia policies and procedures should be interpreted with common sense to achieve the purpose of the policy, or help dispute resolution. 18:45, 8 August 2012 (UTC) Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Provisional Irish Republican Army discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Hi! I am a dispute resolution volunteer. Before I begin, I want to make sure you understand that this process is non-binding; I can't make anyone do anything. But it seems to me that there is already a compromise solution in your opening statements and in the lede of the article. The current opening sentence says this:
- "The Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) (Irish: Óglaigh na hÉireann) is an Irish republican paramilitary organisation whose aim was to remove Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom and bring about a socialist republic within a united Ireland by force of arms and political persuasion."
And the current last sentence of the first paragraph says this:
- "The Provisional Irish Republican Army is also referred to as the PIRA, the Provos, or by its supporters as the Army or the 'RA;<ref> its constitution establishes it as Óglaigh na hÉireann ("The Irish Volunteers") in the Irish language."
It seems to me that if "Óglaigh na hÉireann" translates as "The Irish Volunteers," not the "Irish Republican Army," then the use in the lead sentence is misleading. But you could by all means keep it in the other sentence I copied over, the last sentence of the lead paragraph. Thoughts? - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 20:31, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
- There is nothing unusual about the version of a name in a different language having a different literal meaning. From a policy and guidelines perspective, there is nothing immediately wrong with the current wording. For example, on the article North Korea, the korean wording does not mean "North Korea", or "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". The legitimacy or not of the PIRA should also not effect what it gives as it's official name. From familiarity with the topic in general, Óglaigh na hÉireann is by far the more common name amongst the sources, "IRA Sealadach" I've personally never heard of. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:57, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Can one of the involved users fill in all involved users into "Users involved". Currently it just contains one user. I notice that discussions only began on the talk pages yesterday; 1 day seems far too early to bring the issue to DRN. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:01, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
I have now included the names of the other (proposed) participants.
My contention is this: the usage of this name can be found explained at Óglaigh na hÉireann. It is absolutely clear that most Irish armed groupings, especially those claiming the name IRA (in some shape or another) claim to be the only Óglaigh na hÉireann. This is the invention of tradition in true Irish style. (see Hobsbawm and Ranger, The Invention of Tradition, 1983, Cambridge University Press). The more support a particular grouping gets the more likely they are to claim the name, however: the Government of Ireland claim it for their armed forces and have done since the inception of an independent political process in Ireland. (c1916) (1st Dail for interested onlookers). It is my firm belief that the Provisional IRA article should reflect all of this and explain that their constitution claimed the name Óglaigh na hÉireann although it is not the translation for their working title in English. Explain to the reader WHY they chose this name and give links to the organisations who claim it now that the Provisional IRA is defunct. My firm opinion is that we should not allow "Invention of History" to become fact on Wikipedia and that the information we supply to readers should be accurate to degree level. In support of this I would ask participants to do a google search on Óglaigh na hÉireann and see how many pages they have to go through before finding a reference to the Provisional IRA. I ask also that the comments here [[3]] be noted. The quotes are by Martin McGuinness, the Deputy Leader of Sinn Fein (formerly Provisional Sinn Feinn). They were the political arm of the Republican Movement and McGuinness himself is a former senior member of the Provisional IRA Army Council. Even he says that PIRA only "styled" themselves as Óglaigh na hÉireann and the only true holder of the name is the Irish Defence Forces (he uses the words "Irish Army"). You have it from me, you have it from the Wiki's own articles, you have it from Martin McGuinness. I put it to the discussion that the only way forward is to clarify the usage and stop trying to make it look as if it was an official, recognised title. It never was. SonofSetanta (talk) 18:09, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
PS: @Wolfie - the discussion on the talk page has been ongoing since 19th July. Not just in the last two days. SonofSetanta (talk) 18:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
- We don't determine things through googling; (besides what is more of interest is the google scholar results and flick through; many of these sources demonstrates the academic usage). Your reasoning for removing the mention amounts to original research. The legal legitimacy of the naming is irrelevant; as wikipedians we merely report what they are named as in the Irish language. From what I can see Óglaigh na hÉireann is the name for the PIRA as seen in the academic sources (I looked through google scholar). If there are other groups who also referred to as Óglaigh na hÉireann then they can be given the same name in their respective articles in the very same format. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:17, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
- I've never come across anyone who uses the name for any IRA grouping. Nor is it an Irish translation. It is, as Martin McGuinness says, "a styling". As Wikipedians we must note this for the benefit of all readers who seek information. Otherwise all we are doing is perpetuating a myth which is being forced upon the reader in an attempt to make it tradition. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:50, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
- Just because you've never come across anyone who does doesn't mean no one does. Yes, it should be noted that this is a "styling," not a direct translation or the most common name. But if you want to say "and no one actually uses/used it"...source, please. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 18:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
- Jorgath I happen to agree with you although I would contend that a concensus could be found to show that the name was not in common usage by them. My contention is that it should be noted that this is a "styling" and the reasons for that explained. It should also be removed as the official title in Irish as it is only a styling. SonofSetanta (talk) 11:48, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
- Just because you've never come across anyone who does doesn't mean no one does. Yes, it should be noted that this is a "styling," not a direct translation or the most common name. But if you want to say "and no one actually uses/used it"...source, please. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 18:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
- I've never come across anyone who uses the name for any IRA grouping. Nor is it an Irish translation. It is, as Martin McGuinness says, "a styling". As Wikipedians we must note this for the benefit of all readers who seek information. Otherwise all we are doing is perpetuating a myth which is being forced upon the reader in an attempt to make it tradition. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:50, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
- If there are no objections I'll close this discussion shortly (within the next 24 hours), as only one of the involved parties participated in the discussion. IRWolfie- (talk) 00:21, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
- I have an objection. I took the discussion here for resolution and no resolution has been found. I believe the other editors should be encouraged to take part otherwise (with respect) this process isn't succeeding in its intent. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
I also object, saying that Óglaigh na hÉireann is an Irish translation of PIRA is just factually incorrect. It is an indirect translation for IRA, and that is why the provos claim it. Members of this paramilitary consider themselves the original IRA and not a split away group, just as the CIRA and RIRA do. Maybe the opening sentence should read "commonly referred to as Oglaigh na hEireann by members". Green-Halcyon (formerly Aunty-S) (talk) 14:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Both the RIRA and CIRA articles on wikipedia read "styling themselves as Oglaigh na hEireann", why should the Provisionals be any different from other IRA split away groups? Green-Halcyon (formerly Aunty-S) (talk) 14:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
I also noticed that the RIRA article, along with it's opening sentence, has "Oglaigh na hEireann" printed in brackets directly underneath "Real Irish Republican Army" in the infobox, without saying it's an Irish translation. Maybe we could do this with the PIRA page? Green-Halcyon (formerly Aunty-S) (talk) 14:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see how this translation is any different than that for North Korea. Translations usually are not direct translations in any language. There appear to be adequate (it appears to be the Irish language common name for them) sources that give the PIRA the name "Oglaigh na hEireann". IRWolfie- (talk) 14:32, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
The Zeitgeist Movement
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