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:*I think that where there are allegations of bad faith against one side, we need to see some kind of evidence before we can take those allegations seriously. As I see it, without evidence the accusations have no weight.—[[User:S Marshall|<font face="Verdana" color="Maroon">'''S Marshall'''</font>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:24, 9 September 2011 (UTC) |
:*I think that where there are allegations of bad faith against one side, we need to see some kind of evidence before we can take those allegations seriously. As I see it, without evidence the accusations have no weight.—[[User:S Marshall|<font face="Verdana" color="Maroon">'''S Marshall'''</font>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:24, 9 September 2011 (UTC) |
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::*[[WP:IDHT|Say you disagree with evidence, but don't say it was not provided]]. BusterD: I say "we" as the Royal We of the wikipedia community writ large. However, I am a current events editor, and very active on the area (I was recently denied autopatrol because of the creation of the BLP of the perp of the Norway attacks - so I know the pressures on current event editors) - so I think you exagerate (or are setting up a strawman) when you say I am "painting with a black brush" anyone. --[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] ([[User_talk:Cerejota#top|talk]]) 20:18, 9 September 2011 (UTC) |
::*[[WP:IDHT|Say you disagree with evidence, but don't say it was not provided]]. BusterD: I say "we" as the Royal We of the wikipedia community writ large. However, I am a current events editor, and very active on the area (I was recently denied autopatrol because of the creation of the BLP of the perp of the Norway attacks - so I know the pressures on current event editors) - so I think you exagerate (or are setting up a strawman) when you say I am "painting with a black brush" anyone. --[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] ([[User_talk:Cerejota#top|talk]]) 20:18, 9 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:::*I've not yet seen anything that constitutes evidence of bad faith in this, Cerejota. If I've missed it, would you be kind enough to point it out?—[[User:S Marshall|<font face="Verdana" color="Maroon">'''S Marshall'''</font>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 20:25, 9 September 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:25, 9 September 2011
9 September 2011
Murder of Adrianne Reynolds
- Murder of Adrianne Reynolds (talk||history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Well, as the closing admin (User:Black Kite – not informed per their request) said themselves, "Probably should be closed as No Consensus... and I fully expect to be taken to WP:DRV". And here we are. The two reasons they gave for not closing the discussion with the result they themselves said was appropriate (No consensus) were:
- There were no long-term sources per WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. This is a blatant supervote rather than a summary of consensus in the discussion, plenty of people provided sources for lasting coverage that were not rejected. Closing admin... agrees, "I appreciate that this seems like a supervote".
- Following on from the above quote, the supervote is justified because otherwise "we'd have trouble closing the AfDs that no-one else wants to". It seems to me that is exactly what the "No consensus" option is there for. When there is no consensus in an AfD, we should default to keep. Closing admin did the opposite.
In short, there was no consensus for deletion. The closing admin admits as much and has basically provided all the argument needed for a DRV in their own comment. joe•roet•c 07:42, 9 September 2011 (UTC) joe•roet•c 07:42, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
This raises all sorts of interesting DRV-related issues, and thanks for bringing it. On the facts, I would say that I agree with Black Kite's position. But on good administrative practice, I don't see the fact that I think he was right as enough to justify the close in this case. That's a slightly harsh thing for me to say, so I set out my reasoning from first principles below.
S Marshall's reasoning
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Principle: Authority vests in the community, not the closer. The closer is given a certain amount of discretion, but the purpose of the discretion is to enable the closer to deal with bad faith in the discussion, or with conflicts between a local consensus and a well-established policy. Practice: Black Kite could have made that close if there had been bad faith in the discussion, sockpuppetry, attempted vote-stacking, or if the article had constituted something like a BLP or copyright violation. In the absence of these things he was not entitled to make it. Principle: Admins are elected to enforce the consensus, but not to invent it. This is particularly relevant where no consensus exists. Practice: In cases where, after sufficient discussion, there is a genuine lack of consensus among good-faith users, the proper close is "no consensus." Principle: Some closes are harder than others. (I think it's widely accepted that Black Kite makes many of the most difficult closes on Wikipedia, and so he sees more than his fair share of deletion reviews.) In hard cases, the community is empowered to "ignore all rules". But that is not open to an administrator who is judging consensus. He can ignore the rules, but he can't ignore a community discussion. Practice: The fact that a close is difficult does not by itself justify invoking IAR in making the close. |
Given that my heart says "endorse" because I agree with Black Kite's position, but my head says "overturn" because administrative discretion does not and should not run that far, I'll go with overturn for another admin to close based on the same discussion.—S Marshall T/C 11:20, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Overturn Lasting impact was argued on the basis of a bool having been written about the event. This was replied to as our needing to wait for sources about the book, an absurd argument, because the book doesn't have it be notable to be a RS for notability of what it discuses. This contradicts BK's basic argument for going against consensus. DGG ( talk ) 15:47, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Endorse - sources are not present, book on event is not notable and possibly WP:SENSATION vio - this case was in 2005, but the article was not created until recently, coinciding with the 2011 release of the book.
- Given that we as a matter of routine wipe our butts with WP:NOTNEWSPAPER and WP:SENSATION to create articles on whatever the tabloids find exciting now, the fact it took so long for this case to be addressed in the wiki (and in 2005 we already had this problem), speaks to the fact that millions of editors didn't think of this contemporary event when creating articles. If this is not stealth marketing, I do not know what stealth marking is.
- While notability of an event doesn't have to be contemporary to the event (ie an event can become notable long after it happened), I have to disagree with DGG: WP:NEVENTS *and* WP:GNG both clearly establish that the sources used to establish notability must be reliable sources. I haven't read the book, but I have read of the previous work of the author, a fiction and non-fiction "true crime" specialist - a field known for WP:SENSATION. While cases with a sesationalistic basis can be notable, there is no significant sources independent of the subject that establish notability - wide reporting limits itself to the usual reporting when the event happened, and reporting afterward is local and nowhere near what generally called significant.
- Even if we are mistaken in the belief that this is marketing, this article was submitted multiple times, without any substantial modification, to WP:AFC - where creation was denied multiple times by different admins and editors skilled in AfC. It only was made a live edit by the actions of a now-blocked user, a user blocked precisely because he abused editing privileges such as WP:AFC creation, and even RfA. Such unusual conditions of creation create sufficient reason to belief that something was not right in the article creation process, and this reasonable expectation does open the door for further administrator scrutiny.
- BK defended the wiki against an iffy creation process with good evidence of malfeasance, a number of editors backed him up, and that is what admin discretion is for. Should in a few years renewed interest in the case is such that notability is actually achieved, we can revisit. But for now, neither notability nor WP:IAR supports the inclusion of this article - and the dark cloud of irregularities surrounding it means BK used discretion precisely for what discretion is for: to controversially defend the wiki from (possible) misfeasance, rather than to advance his editorial position. I know BK in his closing said take it to DRV, but I think he was being humble - and S Marshall should listen to the side of his heart that says "endorse" and !vote to protect the wiki, not to allow unscrupulous WP:GAME to get away with it.--Cerejota (talk) 16:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Cerejota, why does the book have to be notable for the subject of the book to be notable. Where does it say only a notable work is a RS?
- who except a writer on crime would normally be expected to write a book on a crime? DGG ( talk ) 17:40, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Either I misunderstood your point, or I misunderstand yours. I say: 1)We cannot base notability on a single RS 2) WP:SENSATION, which is part of WP:NEVENTS, is clear that we should weight the sensationalistic nature of the coverage of events. The book might be an RS, but not to establish notability, because of its sensationalistic nature means it has a horse in the race: if the event is seen as notable, then the book benefits in sales. It should be trivial to find scholarly sources of a six year old crime to establish notability independent of scholarly sources, the fact that we can't find these sources means this event is not notable - except in the mind of sensationalistic crime writers and his blocked fanboys/PR agents.--Cerejota (talk) 17:54, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, this sort of thing is getting out of hand. "Dark cloud of irregularities surrounding it"? "Iffy creation process"? "Good evidence of malfeasance"? You have people thinking there's something 'fishy' about this article when you've advanced absolutely no solid evidence to support that assertion. As I've already told you, there's nothing unusual about the AfC that created it -- several submissions are normal, it was previously declined by one reviewer (User:Nathan2055), and if User:NYMets2000 hadn't accepted it when he did then I would have. The logic that because a book came out about the crime this year there could be paid editing involved is absolutely ludicrous -- maybe the author read the book and that's why he decided to write it now, maybe there was renewed interest in other media outlets because of the book and that prompted him, and maybe it's just a bloody coincidence. I get that you genuinely think the article should be deleted on notability declines, and perhaps you have good reasons for suspecting foul play that I haven't seen, but I think until you make them crystal clear it's extremely disingenuous to keep nudging and hint that something is wrong. If this is all based on some sort of grudge with User:NYMets2000 then please try to remember he only pressed a button to move the AfC submission into mainspace, he hasn't contributed any content to it or had any other on-wiki contact with the actual author of the article. joe•roet•c 18:44, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- BK defended the wiki against an iffy creation process with good evidence of malfeasance, a number of editors backed him up, and that is what admin discretion is for. Should in a few years renewed interest in the case is such that notability is actually achieved, we can revisit. But for now, neither notability nor WP:IAR supports the inclusion of this article - and the dark cloud of irregularities surrounding it means BK used discretion precisely for what discretion is for: to controversially defend the wiki from (possible) misfeasance, rather than to advance his editorial position. I know BK in his closing said take it to DRV, but I think he was being humble - and S Marshall should listen to the side of his heart that says "endorse" and !vote to protect the wiki, not to allow unscrupulous WP:GAME to get away with it.--Cerejota (talk) 16:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Overturn The closing user dis-regarded the Keep !votes totally and missed the points made. As the user him/herself states it should probably have been closed as No Consensus. I say probably should be changed to should have been closed as No Consensus leaning towards Keep. The decision should be overturned the closing user definitly led the way for this to be on Deletion review with quite a weak reasoning for its decision.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:52, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree completely with your assertion the argument is weak, and BK is an admin of utmost integrity and I can understand reasoned disapproval, such as what DGG and S Marshall above provide, but this is a total failure to assume good faith. Not only that, but the reasoning was not weak, it was a solid urgency to protect the wiki, something you entirely fail to address.--Cerejota (talk) 17:46, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- overturn to nc. I firmly believe that when an admin can't close a discussion the way the discussion is leaning because they object to such a close, the right thing to do is contribute to the discussion rather than close. OK, with that off my chest... Is there a valid reason to discount the !votes of the keeps? The key question, as I read the discussion (and the closer's comments) is if there has been long-term coverage of the topic. We've got a new book solely focused on the topic and we've got a part of an (upcoming?) book that at least mentions the topic, likely more than in-passing. Is that a reasonable basis for a claim of long-term coverage? I'd have to say yes. As such the discussion itself should control if that is enough long-term coverage. And the discussion had no consensus on the issue. Thus the right close is NC. Hobit (talk) 18:00, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Now, one other issue was raised in the AfD. Are some of the keep !voters meat puppets engaged in getting/keeping material for pay? I saw no solid evidence of that, but I think that might be worth keeping an eye on. I'm personally okay with people writing NPOV articles on topics they have a COI on. But they should be declaring their COI. I don't claim that is or isn't happening here, but if it is occurring it could easily have been enough to influence the outcome of this AfD. Hobit (talk) 18:00, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Relist. There's no subject we can't discuss further. I have no problem with closer's boldness, and while there's some pointyness in baiting participants ("that's OK - DRV is fine") with an outcome the closer is likely to get reviewed and overturned, I have no problem with that either. Review is good and this discussion is useful precisely for the reasons User:Cerejota outlines. Closer made a judgement call clearly intended to protect this encyclopedia; closer was aware this discussion would ensue, so procedurally, BK is in fair territory here, IMHO. I made my case to keep in the discussion, and while I understand Cerejota's concerns, I'm unhappy with a black brush which has been raised to categorize keep !voters with an imagined group of disruptors, paid editors (a subset of editors I myself imagine exists). I object to that tarring, and am nervous about the rise of this sort of ad hominum critique in AfD and DRV discussions. User:Hobit notes the effect of that brush in the small comment immediately above. There's a lack of good faith in such brushing, since there's no proof (or even much evidence) of such activity here. I'd favor coincidence over conspiracy that a fan of Snapped has written about two episodes which happened to include references to books by one author. I'm not impressed with a logic that because an editor was blocked, necessarily all of the editor's actions should be considered suspect. That would knock out of a lot of the pedia. Finally, as to the gross over-generalization "we as a matter of routine wipe our butts with WP:NOTNEWSPAPER and WP:SENSATION to create articles on whatever the tabloids find exciting now", I think Cerejota misreads both sections of WP:EVENT, and again tars all good faith editors of current events with the black brush. Who you calling "we" Cerejota? BusterD (talk) 19:20, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think that where there are allegations of bad faith against one side, we need to see some kind of evidence before we can take those allegations seriously. As I see it, without evidence the accusations have no weight.—S Marshall T/C 19:24, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Say you disagree with evidence, but don't say it was not provided. BusterD: I say "we" as the Royal We of the wikipedia community writ large. However, I am a current events editor, and very active on the area (I was recently denied autopatrol because of the creation of the BLP of the perp of the Norway attacks - so I know the pressures on current event editors) - so I think you exagerate (or are setting up a strawman) when you say I am "painting with a black brush" anyone. --Cerejota (talk) 20:18, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- I've not yet seen anything that constitutes evidence of bad faith in this, Cerejota. If I've missed it, would you be kind enough to point it out?—S Marshall T/C 20:25, 9 September 2011 (UTC)