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Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 7 discussion(s) to Wikipedia:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram/Archive 6) (bot |
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{{ping|WMFOffice}} What was it about this complaint that meant it required investigation and action by WMF Trust and Safety instead of enwiki's ArbCom? If you cannot state this publicly (even in general terms), please send an explanation to ArbCom's private mailing list so they can confirm that there were good reasons for this action to be handled in this matter. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:WJBscribe|WJBscribe]] [[User talk:WJBscribe|(talk)]]</strong> 22:47, 10 June 2019 (UTC) |
{{ping|WMFOffice}} What was it about this complaint that meant it required investigation and action by WMF Trust and Safety instead of enwiki's ArbCom? If you cannot state this publicly (even in general terms), please send an explanation to ArbCom's private mailing list so they can confirm that there were good reasons for this action to be handled in this matter. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:WJBscribe|WJBscribe]] [[User talk:WJBscribe|(talk)]]</strong> 22:47, 10 June 2019 (UTC) |
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==Community response to WMF == |
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OK, I said further up that I wanted to wait a few days to hear from Fram before going bonkers. 17 minutes later, we heard from Fram. Is it time to go bonkers? |
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===Support response to WMF (1st proposal)=== |
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#The block of Fram was ridiculous micromanagement by the WMF, and Fram wasn't even that noisy a WMF or Arbcom critic (I'm sure everyone here can think of noisier ones). I'm not an admin so don't want to sound like "let's you and him fight". But the strongest response I can think of offhand would be an admin general strike (let the WMF handle its own vandalism and BLP reversions, or shut off editing) until Fram is unblocked and resysopped.<p>Something like that should only be done if there is considerable solidarity among the active admins. They should communicate with each other (probably off-wiki though it couldn't really be private) before deciding.<p>Lesser actions are also possible (suggest your own). As a resolution I'd be fine with the WMF referring the matter to the en.wp arbcom, which I think would respond with an appropriate "sheesh" and do nothing. [[Special:Contributions/67.164.113.165|67.164.113.165]] ([[User talk:67.164.113.165|talk]]) 08:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# Silencing criticism in such an obscure way is not acceptable --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 08:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# Fram can be abusive, hostile, a pain, but existing WP policy is sufficient to ensure that we separate harassment from robust discussion. If the WMF believes Arbcom is incompetent, or policy is not being implemented properly, then that is something to raise openly, where the evidence can help improve the culture and norms. This action should be handled from here on by Arbcom, where Fram can follow the appeals process. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 08:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#What Fæ said. If an editor is causing problems, we have mechanisms either to deal with the problem or to decide that the problem isn't actionable; we don't need the WMF sending in secret death squads to eliminate editors against whom they've taken a dislike, simply because they don't trust our own processes to come to their preferred verdict. Consider this a complete vote of no confidence. ‑ [[User:Iridescent|Iridescent]] 08:59, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# Per Iridescent, this is a '''vote of no confidence'''. Yes, I know this will put me on the WMF's hit list. No, I do not care. [[User:Reyk|<b style="color: Maroon;">Reyk</b>]] <sub>[[User talk:Reyk|<b style="color: Blue;">YO!</b>]]</sub> 09:05, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# Per Fae and Iridescent. [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style="color: red">∯</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><b style="color:#070">WBG</b></span>]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|<sup><span style="color:#00F">converse</span></sup>]] 09:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# [[First they came ...]]; per all the above. (Block all WMF accounts for a period as a minimum - anything 10 minutes to a match of Fram's block), just to kick things off. - [[User:SchroCat|SchroCat]] ([[User talk:SchroCat|talk]]) 09:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# Yes. The community needs to make it overwhelmingly clear to the Foundation folks that actions like this are not welcome here and won't be tolerated. If they won't repeal that ban, and do it quickly, heads must role at the office. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#We have long-established processes in place. We don't need or want WMF office actions for anything other than serious legal / safeguarding issues. A faceless, anonymous WMF account with no accountability, no intention of explaining themselves, and no competence or experience deciding s/he knows better than the entire en.wiki community, deciding our norms for us, and flinging around blocks is not what we signed up to. WMF, if you don't trust the en.wiki admin corps, the en.wiki bureaucrat team, and the en.wiki arbitration committee to manage our own house, feel free to go right ahead and look after it yourselves. Block your own vandals, protect your own pages, why should we do it for you if there's no trust? <u style="text-decoration:none;font:1.1em/1em Arial Black;letter-spacing:-0.09em">[[User:Fish and karate|<u style="text-decoration:none;color:#38a">Fish</u>]]+[[User_talk:Fish and karate|<u style="text-decoration:none;color:#B44">Karate</u>]]</u> 09:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# Consider my comment a vote of no confidence in the WMF. This was a sanction in search of a reason, and when none could be found, the WMF hid behind Trust & Safety. [[User:Mr Ernie|Mr Ernie]] ([[User talk:Mr Ernie|talk]]) 09:15, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Overturn''' as a gross abuse of wmf t&s oversight. I'll have more words later, but this unilateral ban for criticizing ARBCOM is completely unwarranted. <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 09:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#::Expanded version: I don't support strikes, letting vandalism in, or anything that would jeopardize our core mission. Plus, if this was the brainfart of a couple of well-meaning but over-reaching people in the ass end of a basement in the WMF, we should at least wait until the higher ups at the WMF respond. Yeah the T&S team fucked up (and I find the 'deep state' silence-the-critic accusations to be too out there and unsubstantiated to be believable at this point). But if this is resolved in say 1 week, or at the WMF meeting, let's not shoot ourselves in the foot by having to undo 7 days of unchecked vandalism. If vandalism/vandals are allowed, what pressure does that put on the WMF? Very little, if any. BLP lawsuits? Let's not forget that the real victims would be the subject of the biographies, not the WMF. If the WMF fails to properly respond? You want to take an action that puts actual pressure on the WMF? Then block all WMF accounts from enwiki.  <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 17:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#: <s>This is indeed precisely what I meant above, and it is clearly not ok. I do think there are issues (or more precisely there were issues a year ago), but they must have been handled via existing on-wiki processes.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 09:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)</s> I still think like this, but the header has been changed in the meanwhile, and I can not support the new header. --[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 15:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' per Mr Ernie. WMF have made a huge error of judgement, people should lose their positions over this, and Fram should be restored to the community. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 09:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#{{ec|8}} I also agree with Fæ and Iridescent. I'm certainly not Fram's biggest fan but we do have processes here to deal with actual problems and it does not look as this was attempted and failed. That said, I do generally see a problem with [[WP:UNBLOCKABLES]] being able to evade scrutiny and in these cases an intervention from the Foundation might actually be helpful if local processes failed. I just don't see that this was the case here although I am open to be persuaded iff the WMF actually explains their actions. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 09:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# I support any of the following "community responses" in order of decreasing severity: 1) a ban or block of WMFOffice, 2) a TBAN to WMFOffice from enacting blocks, bans, desysops etc except where legality supersedes community desire and/or 3) a general admin and editor strike. Consider this a vote of no-confidence with sanctions attached. (Oh yes, noting Headbomb's vote I'm also up for a very bold overturn of the office sanctions if that's the way we want to play it). [[User:Mr rnddude|Mr rnddude]] ([[User talk:Mr rnddude|talk]]) 09:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Overturn the ban, and <s>start seriously discussing methods to ban Foundation-controlled accounts</s> support MER-C's discretionary sanctions suggestion in instances of hideous overreach like this'''. This is not just beyond the pale, it's something that any other admin would ''lose his tools and very likely his editing rights over'' given how grossly disproportionate this is. —[[User:Jéské Couriano|<i style="color: #1E90FF;">A little blue Bori</i>]] [[User talk:Jéské Couriano|<span style="color: #228B22">v^_^v</span>]] <sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Bori!]]</small></sup> 09:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# Per Mr Ernie - this is an excuse to push through unwanted software changes when they can't even get the basics right. This decision should have been referred to Arbcom. Put all WMF staff under discretionary sanctions while we're at it. FYI: Community action against the WMF is not unprecedented - we nearly had to resort to using the abuse filter to implement [[WP:ACTRIAL]] (see [[Wikipedia talk:The future of NPP and AfC/The DGG discussion]] and [[Wikipedia talk:The future of NPP and AfC/Archive 1]]. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 09:29, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:That is an interesting point. "Structured data"? "AI-generated content"? The WMF has a serious conflict of interest with the supposed goal of writing an encyclopedia. But, I don't think that was the motivation for the immediate incident. It seems more like a facepalm-worthy attempt at living the wokeness currently fashionable in the internet platform management world. [[Special:Contributions/67.164.113.165|67.164.113.165]] ([[User talk:67.164.113.165|talk]]) 09:51, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#Per Mr Ernie and Iridescent. While Fram might be a "love him or hate him" character, they most certainly do not deserve such underhanded action. And the WMFs attempt at censorship is akin to an online dictatorship. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">[[User:Cassianto|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Cassianto</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Cassianto#top|<span style="font-family: Papyrus;">Talk</span>]]</sup></span>''' 09:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support withdrawal of service'''. Until this is overturned, the WMF can do my admin job too, because I won't. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 09:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:Honestly, an admin/functionary strike might help - or it might backfire horribly. I'm doubtful it'd be ignored, though. —[[User:Jéské Couriano|<i style="color: #1E90FF;">A little blue Bori</i>]] [[User talk:Jéské Couriano|<span style="color: #228B22">v^_^v</span>]] <sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Bori!]]</small></sup> 09:52, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:: The only thing which would help is a blackout for a visible period of time.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 09:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#::I can't see any backfire that could possibly affect me. As I say in the section below, I will not work as an admin under the control of an unaccountable civility police - and if that is not rectified, I don't want to be an admin here anyway. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 10:36, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' - I'm not really following this monster thread any more, but follow whatever action (such as striking) my fellow editors/admins agree upon. I'm not a scab! [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 10:06, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' - if people go for this then I'm in. I too am appalled by what's happened and happy to go with whatever consensus is reached. Another possible idea is to replace the main page with a banner of some sort. We could do that as a community couldn't we? — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 10:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:Yes, of course, if we have a consensus to do so. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 10:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:I would oppose doing anything destructive to the encyclopedia itself - I simply support the withdrawal of admin labour. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 10:39, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#::Admins going on strike is ''ipso facto'' destructive to the encyclopedia because it will give vandals the temporary ability to make hay. That action, although likely to make the WMF take notice, is actually a lot worse than turning off the main page would be, since it would affect our readers and the accuracy of what they read without their necessarily being aware that then are being affected. — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 11:08, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:::The distinction I'm trying to make is between any of us actively doing anything destructive, and passively not doing anything to stop destruction. And I think that's an important distinction. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 11:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#::::It is necessary to make it clear that we work here as volunteers and can withdraw our free labour as and when we choose. This is a message that some people at WMF apparently do not choose to hear. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter Southwood]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 11:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support general strike''' as described. Just halting Main Page processes like TFA, ITN, DYK, and OTD is going to make SanFran uncomfortable. <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">talk</span>]])</span> 10:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:It'll take some balls, but that's a great idea. Let's just delete tomorrow's TFA, DYK, OTD, ITN, TFP. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 10:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#::No, we shouldn't actively break things, just passively not do them any more until this is resolved. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 10:41, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:::I propose that we let the stale TFA, DYKs et al remain. No need to actively blank stuff. |
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#::: |
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#:::And, along with that, cease using editorial/admin tools. If the WMF can micromanage to such extents, they can certainly write the encyclopedia and maintain it. [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style="color: red">∯</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><b style="color:#070">WBG</b></span>]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|<sup><span style="color:#00F">converse</span></sup>]] 10:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#::::Yes, let's not be actively disruptive - just passive. Non-violent civil disobedience. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 10:47, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:::::Alright, that. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 10:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' Vote of no confidence, blocking all WMF usernames not associated with a specified person, and a general "down admin tools" until this has been reversed. · · · [[User:Pbsouthwood|Peter Southwood]] [[User talk:Pbsouthwood|<sup>(talk)</sup>]]: 11:08, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' vote of no confidence. I will participate in any non-destructve measures to drive home the community's rejection of this gross overstep. [[User:Tide rolls|'''<span style="color:White;background:darkRed">Tide</span>''']][[User talk:Tide rolls|'''<span style="color:darkRed">rolls'''</span>]] 11:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support CBAN''' per CIR. I believe there should be a measured and proportionate community response to this, so obviously we should hand out 1 year unappealable bans like candy. The OFFICE ban is ridiculous, and so is the form letter statement. At least put together a half-assed explanation when banning people, if a full-assed one is too hard. [[User:Alpha3031|Alpha3031]] ([[User talk:Alpha3031|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alpha3031|c]]) 11:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' Go bonkers. Per Fae & my longer comments above. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ABureaucrats%27_noticeboard&type=revision&diff=901361519&oldid=901360368]. T&S should not supplant Arbcom and community processes except in the most extreme circumstances -- which these do not appear to have been. [[User:Jheald|Jheald]] ([[User talk:Jheald|talk]]) 11:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 11:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# '''Support''', per the above. [[User:Karellen93|Karellen93]] ([[User Talk:Karellen93|talk]]) <small>(Vanamonde93's alternative account)</small> 12:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# I agree with many above that, based on the information provided here so far, this action by the WMF Office appears irresponsible and unjustified. I support the community overturning it, to the extent possible under applicable policy, and pending a better explanation by the WMF Office. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Sandstein '''</span>]]</span></small> 13:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' anything that doesn't damage the encyclopedia. —[[User:pythoncoder|<span style="color:#004080">python</span><span style="color:olive">coder</span>]] ([[User talk:pythoncoder|talk]] | [[Special:Contribs/pythoncoder|contribs]]) 13:39, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' - I'm a non-admin, and even I think that something needs to be done, if nothing else to at least get the WMF's attention.--[[User:WaltCip|WaltCip]] ([[User talk:WaltCip|talk]]) 14:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' - I'm [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASitush&type=revision&diff=901384618&oldid=901307780 out] for now. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 14:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' Just like the people in Hong Kong knew what was coming a long time, we knew what was coming the minute they started locking accounts at all. But now that it's here and they're directly making their move to take over, we still might as well protest like those million people on the front page. We accumulated a lot of content and a lot of money and now a certain class of Better Than Us is here to take it all for themselves so they can continue to be Better Than Us. [[User:Wnt|Wnt]] ([[User talk:Wnt|talk]]) 14:51, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' at a minimum, we need to strongly consider banning LauraHale for <s>her</s> the grotesque and unconscionable overreach that resulted in an IBan, evidently at her behest. And yes, I'm quite comfortable taking Fram's word against the WMF's word. Why? Because Fram is the one who cares about and contributes to this community. [[User:Lepricavark|Lepricavark]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark|talk]]) 14:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#: Do you have any reason to suppose it was her behind this? Two edits pertaining to her were used to explain the initial 'warning', but I don't want to infer too much from that. If we lash out at a bystander carelessly, we'll take a beating for it. [[User:Wnt|Wnt]] ([[User talk:Wnt|talk]]) 15:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#::I've revised my statement slightly, but suffice it to say the initial warning was extremely shady. Going back several months and handing out an IBan for two edits that weren't even inappropriate? Unbelievable. And I doubt that she had nothing to do with it. [[User:Lepricavark|Lepricavark]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark|talk]]) 15:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' Note that this is not exclusive to my support of other options. [[User:Rdfox 76|rdfox 76]] ([[User talk:Rdfox 76|talk]]) 15:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' If "going bonkers" means strong, escalating responses to the WMF action - which has not been satisfactorily explained to the community - based on the continuing evolution of the situation, then yes, indeed, the community needs to "go bonkers" to adequately express its displeasure. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken|talk]]) 17:01, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' Going bonkers, on strike, cancelling TFA etc whatever. Fuck the WMF, it's clearly starting to become incompetent to run the projects. They have little to no care about situations that clearly need their involvement (Croatian and Azerbaijan Wikipedia) but for some reason is happy to suddenly ban an admin while revoking talk and email for stuff that should be dealt here. Also block the WMFOffice account as a violation of the username policy. [[User:CoolSkittle|<span style="background-color: blue; color: orange">CoolSkittle</span>]] ([[User talk:CoolSkittle|talk]]) 17:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''': There's a cancer at the heart of the Wikipedia establishment, and this is yet another example of it. That the Office have gone over the heads of the entire community to ban Fram for "civility" issues which wouldn't even result in a slap on the wrist from AN/I is unconscionable and we shouldn't have any part in it. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' ([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]]) 18:01, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' - The WMFs blocking and response above is all but bullshit and I would 100% support any strike that happens, If it's true Fram was blocked due to that last diff then well my respect for the WMF is nothing ... pretty much like their statement really. –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 19:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support walkout''' per B!sZ, who said everything I wanted to without the WTF sputtering. When I think of all the time I've spent helping to shore up Jimbo's pet project, I feel like a damn fool. [[User:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:navy">Mini</span>''''']][[User_talk:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:#8B4513">apolis</span>''''']] 00:42, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' going bonkers. 04:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' - think it was excessive and opaque. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|talk]])''' 05:37, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' - this is a vote of no confidence, not an endorsement of vandalism. [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 09:52, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' Even though I've been quite active here on Wikipedia, this whole drama somehow slipped by me. However, when I saw it at [[WP:AN]], I was rather flabbergasted. The Wikimedia Foundation should not be micromanaging individual Wikis; and this type of unacceptable behavior has occurred in the past. I have no confidence in the WMF going forward. [[User:Rockstone35|<span style="color:#DF0101"><b>Rockstone</b></span>]][[User talk:Rockstone35|<span style="color:black"><b><small>talk to me!</small></b></span>]] 07:39, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Support''' Given that we have yet to get a straight answer to the simplest of questions from either T&S or the WMF board. I am supporting all options that oppose the WMF's totalitarianism. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 19:37, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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===Oppose response to WMF (1st proposal)=== |
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# "Go bonkers" isn't really specific enough for me to be able to support. I do not support many of the escalation paths listed in the support section, such as beginning to block WMF-related accounts. It'd be nice to hear a more specific proposal. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] ([[User talk:Deskana|talk]]) 11:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' anything more than a passive "down tools" action right now. No WMF blocks, bans, or anything like that, as that is over-reaction at this stage. Jimmy is apparently looking at it, Doc James suggests the board will look at it, ArbCom is apparently seeking clarification. So let's keep our heads cool and not go dramatically overboard until we see how that all turns out, huh? [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 11:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# More or less per Boing! said Zebedee in this section. Let's wait for inquiries to produce anything. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]], [[Special:CentralAuth/Jo-Jo Eumerus|contributions]]) 11:32, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# '''Oppose''' I'm particularly concerned about any attempts to make this a "you're either with us or against us" type situation with comments about scabs etc. If individual editors (including admins) want to stop editing here (including taking admin action) they're completely welcome to. But it would be incredibly harmful to everyone if we try and force others to act in a certain way. I'm likewise obviously completely oppose to any active attempt to harm wikipedia like deleting elements of the main page. (To be clear, blocking WMF accounts doesn't fall into that category since the WMF can ultimately override those if needed although I am opposed to it as it's something which just seems silly.) See also my oppose to the other proposal. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:35, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' - I don't see how this is going to help. Our responsibility is towards the encyclopedia, and us downing tools as our first counter-step is insanely counter-productive. Let's let the community reps on the Board have a go (they meet on the 14th June) and give us a thumb up/down on whether it was reasonable (even if excoriatingly badly handled). [[User:Nosebagbear|Nosebagbear]] ([[User talk:Nosebagbear|talk]]) 11:48, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose'''. "Go bonkers" is ''not'' something that will plausibly help defuse the situation or result in any other positive outcome - whatever your view about Fram or the WMF. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:00, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:<small>{{u|Thryduulf}}, have you missed a "not" from this? - [[User:SchroCat|SchroCat]] ([[User talk:SchroCat|talk]]) 12:04, 11 June 2019 (UTC)</small> |
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#::<small>{{replyto|SchroCat}} I did indeed, now fixed. I went through about three different ways of phrasing this before clicking save - seems I didn't update everything! [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)</small> |
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# 'going bonkers' can rarely count on my support and I support the statement by Zebedee above. I do however find this entire page plenty evidence as to why people would feel safer turning to T&S than to the community when it concerns Fram's behavior. I've long stated that I think the community is not upholding it's own rules when it comes to certain people; That I can barely support our current core community as it is and regularly consider leaving it (it's a tough battle between the mission I care for and getting rid of negative influences in my life, which i consider this community to be). I'm also first to admit that Fram gets considerably less consideration from me. Fram's behavior towards volunteers and staff was a big part of why I turned in my sysop tools for 2,5 years. While I've seen progress by Fram over the last few years, it is far from perfect. As such none of this surprises me very much. I also note that only T&S is likely aware of employee complaints about editors. I'm not sure that was into play here, but the communication does seem to imply some history (unsurprisingly). I fully support the Foundation in providing a safe and sane atmosphere for their emmployees to work in. If you don't, then please stop using this website and start running your own and hiring people yourself that you are responsible for. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 12:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:Translation:- {{tq|I developed severely shitty products during my tenure with WMF and plan to do so; Fram did not like it and criticized me. But obviously, we are above criticism. Incompetency is a virtue in WMF and we are a bunch of children, to be mollycoddled. We got angry and complained to our Class-Monitor and he (obviously) took action. Now I see that nobody supports such stuff but hey, that's the reason why I don't like the core community, at all. I am beginning to think that I am the sole arbiter of civility and that the rest of the community can fuck off.}} [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style="color: red">∯</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><b style="color:#070">WBG</b></span>]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|<sup><span style="color:#00F">converse</span></sup>]] 13:32, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#::{{u|Winged Blades of Godric}}, I never worked for the foundation. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 13:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# '''Oppose''' per {{u|TheDJ}}. [[User:Gamaliel|<span style="color:DarkGreen;">Gamaliel</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Gamaliel|<span style="color:DarkGreen;">talk</span>]])</small> 13:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# '''Oppose''' per most of the above, basically, "go bonkers" is not something that I can support. —[[User:DoRD|DoRD]] ([[User talk:DoRD|talk]]) 14:15, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# '''No''' it is not {{tq|time to go bonkers}}. It is time for civil discourse and possibly straw polls of actionable statements. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#As above. [[User:TonyBallioni|TonyBallioni]] ([[User talk:TonyBallioni|talk]]) 14:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#I had the pleasure of meeting {{U|TheDJ}} at Wikiconference North America 2018 and hold him in high regard. His statement resonates with me. What real-world court would not find someone who addressed them in the manner Fram spoke about Arbcom without finding them in [[contempt of court|contempt]]? At least one member of the Arbitration Committee presumably read [[special:diff/895438118|this]], and they failed to effectively respond. [[User:Wbm1058|wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 15:56, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:ArbCom ain't your fucking Court. What do you propose next, that we start addressing the honorable arbitrators with [[Milord#Alternative_legal_use|''Milord'']]? [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style="color: red">∯</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><b style="color:#070">WBG</b></span>]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|<sup><span style="color:#00F">converse</span></sup>]] 18:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose'''. "Going Bonkers" in this case is playing chicken with a train. Calm down.--[[User:Jorm|Jorm]] ([[User talk:Jorm|talk]]) 16:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose'''. That said, WMF needs to exercise a bit more transparency. I doubt the three edits Fram listed are the real reason. The final may have been a last straw, but there is a lot more to this story. Until we have more information, the torches and pitchforks need to be stored for later. [[User:Montanabw|<span style="color: #006600;">Montanabw</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|(talk)]]</sup> 17:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#Per TheDJ, Boing! said Zebedee and Deskana. – [[User:Ammarpad|Ammarpad]] ([[User talk:Ammarpad|talk]]) 17:28, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' Per my comments below and per Montanabw. [[User:Calliopejen1|Calliopejen1]] ([[User talk:Calliopejen1|talk]]) 17:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose'''. Concur with sentiments expressed by Nil Einne, Nosebagbear and Thryduulf, among others. Overreaction will not solve any issue or improve the encyclopedia. [[User:SusunW|SusunW]] ([[User talk:SusunW|talk]]) 18:02, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' the initial suggestion here. I will not join in any "administrator strike". What a perfect example of [[WP:POINT|disrupting Wikipedia to make a point]] that would be! I do agree with the reaction of most people that this seems to have been an outrageous abuse of authority (which they recently granted to themselves) by WMF. But I doubt if any amount of outrage from us editors is going to have any effect on the situation. I think that ArbCom, [[User:Jimbo|Jimbo]], and the WMF board are the actors that might be able to do something and we should encourage them. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 18:15, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' per others. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 18:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 18:39, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' as not really able to evaluate this non-proposal, and it's not even really clear that everyone in the "support" heading is even voting for the same thing. [[User:ST47|ST47]] ([[User talk:ST47|talk]]) 10:10, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' cases like these are difficult enough to handle when people are calm. [[User:Megalibrarygirl|Megalibrarygirl]] ([[User talk:Megalibrarygirl|talk]]) 17:11, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' per others.--[[User:Vulphere|<span style="background:#000000; color:white; padding:2px;">Vulp</span>]][[User talk:Vulphere|<span style="background:#DC143C; color:white; padding:2px;">here</span>]] 09:59, 13 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' any strike actions. If administrators disagree with WMF's stance, the best move would be mass resignstion, not disruptions. Wikipedia's function should not be disrupted by internal issues. Administrators actively disrupting in protest should be removed for abuse. [[User:Juxlos|Juxlos]] ([[User talk:Juxlos|talk]]) 16:19, 13 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' Admins should not use their power to protect each other. Lets not end up like the medical or legal professions.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 09:35, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Opose''': Action at this stage appears premature. The facts of the matter will no doubt emerge with time.--[[User:Ipigott|Ipigott]] ([[User talk:Ipigott|talk]]) 10:57, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose'''—Stop the drama. We do not own the Terms of Use. I place significant trust in the Foundation's T and S division. Shake yourselves out of the admin-for-life mindset, too. [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 08:59, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' per Tony1. The WMF has responded more than adequately below. The reality is that when privacy and harassment are involved, not all the details can be made public. —[[User:Mx. Granger|Granger]] ([[User talk:Mx. Granger|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger|contribs]]) 16:02, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' per Tony1. [[User:SD0001|SD0001]] ([[User talk:SD0001|talk]]) 17:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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==Alternative proposal: The WMF was wrong to ban Fram, and we reject this overreach and have no confidence in the WMF's handling of office bans.== |
==Alternative proposal: The WMF was wrong to ban Fram, and we reject this overreach and have no confidence in the WMF's handling of office bans.== |
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#'''Oppose''' The WMF and its various bloated teams have shown they have no interest in working with the communities that give them a job, dictators should not be appeased. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 19:43, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
#'''Oppose''' The WMF and its various bloated teams have shown they have no interest in working with the communities that give them a job, dictators should not be appeased. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 19:43, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#I don't think this is workable, per Montanabw and others. It'd be nice if it ''could'' work this way, but in practice it can't. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] ([[User talk:Deskana|talk]]) 11:06, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
#I don't think this is workable, per Montanabw and others. It'd be nice if it ''could'' work this way, but in practice it can't. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] ([[User talk:Deskana|talk]]) 11:06, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== Alternative proposal 6: Use Editorial Independence to Force Communication (2) == |
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If, after a reasonable time (say a week from now), no steps towards a resolution of the core conflict have been taken, we use [[MediaWiki:Editpage-head-copy-warn]] or a similar prominent location to inform editors that they are subject to secret behavioural rules by secret judges based on secret accusations, with no right of representation, defence, or appeal, and provide instructions for contacting the Board, CEO, and Chief of Community Engagement to ask for a revision to the T&S policy. <small>Modified from Proposal 5 based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AStephan_Schulz&type=revision&diff=902186413&oldid=901968337 a suggestion] by [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]].</small> |
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=== Support statement (proposal 6) === |
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# --[[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]] ([[User talk:Stephan Schulz|talk]]) 06:23, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# '''Support''' - This is appropriately targeted in the spirit of the warning message. [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 15:49, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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# This is a proportionate response. I hope it will prove unnecessary. [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 07:10, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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=== Oppose statement (proposal 6) === |
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#Petty childish nonsense. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 08:14, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#Although I wouldn't have put it ''quite'' that way, I agree with Boing! said Zebedee. Users are informed they're subject to the Terms of Use, there's no need to supplement those warnings with a petulant version of them. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] ([[User talk:Deskana|talk]]) 11:11, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:{{Re|Deskana|Boing! said Zebedee}} do you find the wording objectionable, or just the idea that we should warn people they are subject to opaque rules and enforcement? How do you feel about petitioning from that interface message? [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 15:47, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#::{{ping|EllenCT}} That's a bit of a loaded question, which I think was unintentional, so I'll try to answer it anyway. The Terms of Use are already advertised immediately above the save button ("By publishing changes, you agree to the Terms of Use…") and in the footer when reading "By using this site, you agree to the Terms of Use…"). Making the Terms of Use even more prominent, and using quite pointed language in the notice ("opaque" is quite a charged term), feels to me like a knee-jerk reaction to this situation, intended to attack the Wikimedia Foundation rather than contribute to a resolution of the problem. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] ([[User talk:Deskana|talk]]) 16:18, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:::There is nothing in the Terms of Use which suggests that people will be tried in secret, on secret evidence, or without any avenue of defense, representation or appeal. Because this is a change to longstanding processes and the expectations of editors, a warning is justified. When explaining the state of affairs seems like an attack, that proves that they have deteriorated such that they are indefensible on their own right. Here's how Anti-Harassment Tools Team Design Researcher Claudia Lo put it in her November 2018 [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Enwiki_Reporting_system_summary.pdf "Reporting systems on English Wikipedia"] written for the Community Health Initiative: |
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#::::''the Wikimedia community highly prizes transparency. For reporting systems, this is interpreted as publicly-viewable processes, outcomes, and the identities of the involved users. Transparency in this case is not just a design consideration put into place to achieve a certain kind of efficiency or mode of operation, but a value to be strived for in the way the entire system operates.... whatever changes we recommend, it must adhere to these values even as we change key features, otherwise it will not be trustworthy.'' |
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#:::Do you see a resolution to the problem which does not involve petitioning the Board and management? Are you satisfied with the newly imposed T&S process? [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 17:38, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#::Both. No editor without a history for incivility or behavioural issues has been banned under these allegedly opaque rules. [[User:SD0001|SD0001]] ([[User talk:SD0001|talk]]) 17:31, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:::Prior to the imposition of the new rules, editors banned for incivility were done so in a transparent fashion. What is the cost of allowing secret accusations and trials without defense or appeal? How is the community expected to know what the civility standards are under these conditions? [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 17:38, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#Childish nonsense as Boing! says. [[User:SD0001|SD0001]] ([[User talk:SD0001|talk]]) 17:31, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#Yeah, this is exactly the same as vandalizing the main page - probably even worse. I imagine a stark majority of editors don't even care about this and will only be discouraged from editing Wikipedia knowing that admins act this way. [[User:Juxlos|Juxlos]] ([[User talk:Juxlos|talk]]) 18:19, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#:See [[Wikipedia:Community_response_to_the_Wikimedia_Foundation's_ban_of_Fram/Archive_4#Some_troubling_context.|Seraphimblade's quorum statistics discussion here]] please. [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 21:43, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' Dumb. (Also, enforcement of terms of use on other websites is usually opaque, so readers will probably have no idea what we're ranting about.) [[User:Calliopejen1|Calliopejen1]] ([[User talk:Calliopejen1|talk]]) 22:45, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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#'''Oppose''' I don't have that much else to say... [[User:Abequinn14|Abequinn14]] ([[User talk:Abequinn14|talk]]) |
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=== Discussion of statement (proposal 6) === |
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*My goodness, proposal 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 101. We really are going crazy here. I think we really have to just wait for more information about what is going on, such as waiting for the Board's discussions to be published, before we have so start making it seem like we can have any proposals at all. People here are obviously in a bit of a panic mode, what has happened here is a bit shit, but you know, just calm down and wait. [[User talk:My name is not dave|talk to <span style="color:#000000">'''''!'''''</span><span style="color:#F00">'''dave'''</span>]] 07:57, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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==Fram's response on Commons== |
==Fram's response on Commons== |
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All of this could be made easier if the WMF posted their full mails of course (although by now large chunks have been reposted here). Doing this the wiki way instead of through mail would have helped a lot. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram#top|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 13:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
All of this could be made easier if the WMF posted their full mails of course (although by now large chunks have been reposted here). Doing this the wiki way instead of through mail would have helped a lot. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram#top|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 13:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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}} |
}} |
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== Realistic proposals == |
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Lots of verbiage on this discussion page but not many realistic proposals as to what the WMF or we as a community should actually do IMO. Here's the facts of the case, as I understand them: |
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# Fram was banned by the WMF for violating [[foundation:Terms_of_Use/en#4._Refraining_from_Certain_Activities|section 4 of the Terms of Use]], namely the "Harassing and Abusing Others" provision |
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# According to their privacy policy, the WMF is unable to release any information to the community (that includes ARBCOM) that could identify the complainant |
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# Several employees of the WMF reviewed the case and agreed that Fram violated the Terms of Use |
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# Jimbo and Doc James are looking into the matter, but they likely won't be able to release any info that WMF hasn't already (besides perhaps saying whether they agree with the decision) |
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# WMF has the ability to unilaterally enforce their Terms of Use regardless of community consensus (See: [[WP:CONEXCEPT]] and [[WP:OFFICE]]) |
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'''Given the points above, here are a few proposals that aren't possible''': |
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* WMF should release more specifics about why Fram was banned |
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* WMF should refer the case to ARBCOM |
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* en.wiki should reverse Fram's ban itself |
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'''Here are some proposals that might be possible''': |
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* WMF could alter their policies so that going forward ARBCOM can handle harassment/abuse claims filed with the WMF |
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** This wouldn't necessarily increase transparency, it would just change *who* is making unpopular decisions shrouded in secrecy |
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* Going forward, the WMF could require a community representative to be involved in the process of handling harassment/abuse claims |
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* Our [[User:Jimbo Wales|benevolent dictator for life]] could investigate and decide whether to reverse the ban |
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* We could fork Wikipedia |
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* WMF could alter their privacy policy so that going forward, harassment/abuse claims are not confidential |
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[[user talk:Anne drew Andrew and Drew|<span class="nobreak">AdA&D</span>]] 15:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:For the record, I disagree with most of the possible options of recourse I listed above, but unlike most of the proposals on this page they are actually feasible. [[user talk:Anne drew Andrew and Drew|<span class="nobreak">AdA&D</span>]] 15:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::Forking is a little problematic, not least due to the difficulty of porting across userrights and usernames to the new wiki and reserving them for the existing Wikipedian. I'm not yet convinced that we need to do it over this latest WMF scandal, but has anyone put any thoughts in to how it could be efficiently done? ''[[User:WereSpielChequers|<span style="color:DarkGreen">Ϣere</span>]][[User talk:WereSpielChequers|<span style="color:DarkRed">Spiel</span>]]<span style="color:#CC5500">Chequers</span>'' 15:31, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:The problem with your assertions is that you assign immunity to WMF's policy without explanation. WMF might have current technical superiority, but we all know that in reality the Wikimedia project relies on the community, and without the community, it is nothing. And the WMF understands it too, otherwise Fram was already blocked again and the sysops that unblocked him would be too. But they aren't, because the WMF understands that without the community it has nothing. So no, WMF policy is not above criticism, protest and mass civil disobedience, if necessary. [[User:Yoohabina|Yoohabina]] ([[User talk:Yoohabina|talk]]) 16:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::I think that the suggestions by {{u|Anne drew Andrew and Drew}} are reasonable. And I would say that, like they mentioned, I disagree with them, too. Harassment is such a difficult issue for the community to deal with. People who have not been the subject of harassment don't understand what the victim goes through. Sometimes these situations need to be handled anonymously. I would also say that the fact that this was handled anonymously shows that something very serious must have happened. I wish I knew the details, but we don't and sometimes that's OK. We need to accept that privacy and safety issues are sometimes more important than all of us knowing what we want to know. [[User:Megalibrarygirl|Megalibrarygirl]] ([[User talk:Megalibrarygirl|talk]]) 16:34, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::{{tqb|"People who have not been the subject of harassment don't understand what the victim goes through. Sometimes these situations need to be handled anonymously. I would also say that the fact that this was handled anonymously shows that something very serious must have happened." It would be better if you didn't speculate about what happened or raised accusations without a shred of evidence. Nothing "very serious" has happened. I have no idea why the WMF feels the need to handle this with such secrecy, or why they drop hints about legal and so on being involved. Basically, they are pointing a very ominous picture without providing any evidence for any of this (because, well, there isn't any). If their reasoning is that I have been uncivil towards too many people for too long, or that I have kept an eye on some problematic editors for a longer time, and that from now one they will be banning or blocking people for such things, fine, say so, no need to be secretive. But your comments make it very clear that their process, the way they handle this, is effectively poisoning the well, in a "well, if there's smoke there has to be fire" method.}} |
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:::{{tqb|I would invite the WMF to provide their evidence to a number of trusted enwiki people who have no real reason to defend me, but whom I still trust to be impartial. People like Newyorkbrad, Drmies, Ymblanter, GorillaWarfare, Giant Snowman, ... Let them judge the evidence in private, without sharing it with me; if they agree that a) th evidence is compelling, and b) it couldn't have been handled in public, then so be it. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram#top|<span class="signature-talk">{{int:Talkpagelinktext}}</span>]]) 19:59, 12 June 2019 (UTC)}} |
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*Where do you see in their Terms of Use or Privacy Policy that sharing with ArbCom is not allowed? In fact, upon reading it (especially the section "To Protect You, Ourselves & Others" in the Privacy Policy) I seem to get the opposite impression. -- [[User:King of Hearts|King of]] [[User:King of Hearts|<font color="red">♥</font>]] [[User talk:King of Hearts|<font color="red">♦</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/King of Hearts|<font color="black">♣</font>]] ♠ 16:54, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:* I'm working off their justification [[wikipedia:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram#Further comment from the Foundation|here]], which states: |
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::{{tqb|First, our privacy provisions do not always allow us to "pass back" personal information we receive to the community; this means there are cases where we cannot pass on to Arbcom things like the names of complaining parties or the content of private evidence that might support a concern. As a result, the best we could have given Arbcom in this case would have been a distillation of the case, severely limiting their ability to handle it.}} |
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:: I'm assuming this statement is indeed rooted in WMF policy, but I'm not sure exactly where that is. Perhaps someone at the Wikimedia Foundation can provide some clarity. [[user talk:Anne drew Andrew and Drew|<span class="nobreak">AdA&D</span>]] 17:14, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::This provision makes no sense because all functionaries are subject to confidentiality agreements (also called L37 in WMF legalese) and as such, eligible to partake in nonpublic information sharing. --<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',Geneva,sans-serif">[[User:QEDK|<span style="color:black">qedk</span>]] ([[User talk:QEDK|<span style="color:black">t</span>]] 桜 [[Special:Contributions/QEDK|<span style="color:black">c</span>]])</span> 18:02, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:{{u|Anne drew Andrew and Drew}}, I think the "community representative to be involved in the process" proposal has merit.--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#000E2F;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">S Philbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 19:03, 12 June 2019 (UTC) |
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I'm coming late to this, & I have tried to read all of the comments up to now, so I apologize in advance if I am retracing old ground. However, I feel a couple of points need to be made here.<p>The primary issue I see here is -- if Fram is correct about the reason for his ban by the Foundation -- is that the Foundation acted as if it were the party in charge of en.wikipedia, & we volunteers were simply the junior members in the relationship, with about as much clout as the average members of FaceBook or Twitter. Rather, since we volunteers predated the Foundation's creation, we see ourselves as '''equal partners''' in this enterprise to create a free encyclopedia, & the Foundation's arrogation of handling this matter is an insult to us. We have processes, flawed as they sometimes are, to handle conflicts here, & no matter how good of intentions anyone at WMF has in intervening they must use these processes first, & only override them after making a clear case why they did so. This they did not do. The Foundation wants to become management, & make us volunteers their (unpaid) employees. So AdD&D's realistic proposals don't really address this act to subordinate the Wikipedia volunteer community.<p>If my interpretation of this conflict is correct, there are two very powerful ways to react: |
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* ''A general strike''. Of course, we won't get every Wikipedia volunteer & contributor to participate in a strike, but what we need is for the core volunteers to participate. The people who keep the wheels turning & the fuel tanks topped off -- who number no more than 400 people. And looking at the names at the end of the comments here, most of them are here. We strike for three or four days -- long enough to demonstrate our power & mood -- & the Foundation will be forced to realize they must accept we are equal partners, & they cannot keep pulling crap like this & Superprotect. |
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* ''The nuclear option''. Every year the Foundation stages a fund raiser. If by the time of the next fund raiser they still have not accepted that we are equal partners, we stage a counter-campaign to defeat their fund raising. In other words, hit the Foundation in the pocket book. I know this is an extreme option -- which is why I labelled it as a "nuclear option" -- but it could be done by just a handful of otherwise devoted Wikipedians. And it is an option that I sincerely hope is never resorted to. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 07:44, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*:The idea that a general strike by the most active users (whose most visible effect would be a couple thousand extra new articles per day not being deleted) would be somehow unwelcome to the WMF (whose metrics have everything to do with number of articles, number of new users, number of edits) is giggle-worthy. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 08:08, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*:: So you consider the only way to get past the metric-colored glasses of the WMF is to sabotage the next WMF funding campaign? Convince the usual group of donors '''not''' to contribute? (I suspect everyone who has posted to this page, despite their own sincere beliefs, could write a very persuasive essay arguing that it is a waste of money to donate to the WMF.) That would bring a nuclear winter over Wikipedia. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 15:08, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*:::Well. I'd read your statement as similar to another suggestion here, to actively block the WMF fundraising banners or run a counterbanner alongside them, and didn't think it worth responding to. (If anyone still thinks that's somehow a remotely feasible idea - the WMF would revert such an overt threat and globally lock anyone they considered even peripherally involved so fast your head would spin.) But you're instead saying to, what? Write a bunch of userspace essays and hope all the folks who'd otherwise contribute four or five bucks instead stumbles across one first and Sees the Light? Directly approach major donors? Unless one of the outraged users here secretly has direct influence over a Google-alike's pursestrings or owns a YouTube channel with a couple million subscribers, I can't see something of the sort having any effect to speak of. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 22:26, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*:::: That was not my intent in my second suggestion. I'm talking about off-Wiki advocacy that people should '''not''' donate to the Foundation. Write essays for, say, [[Medium (website)|Medium]], on the issue. I would think if a long-term established Wikipedia editor argues that people should not donate to the Foundation, it would attract news interest. (And I agree with you that userspace essays would have zero visibility.) -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] ([[User talk:Llywrch|talk]]) 07:08, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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{{tq|This wouldn't necessarily increase transparency, it would just change *who* is making unpopular decisions shrouded in secrecy}}. That might make a difference, though? From the small amount of information we have, it feels as though a big part of the problem here is that the WMF (and the people making these decisions) aren't familiar with longstanding Wikipedia standards and practices. The things we've seen so far hint at Fram generally behaving suboptimally but fall far, far short of the standard that would lead to a block under normal circumstances - it resulted in a block simply because WMF has different standards. That's bad on several levels, since it leads to confusion and random-seeming outcomes. Working it through ArbCom (who is generally extremely experienced with our standards) could solve this. Then, if the WMF feels that ArbCom and our standards are too lenient, they could push us towards what they consider ideal - which might not be fun but would at least result in consistent policies formed in a transparent way, without having to risk outing anyone's identity in any specific case. A big part of the problem here, basically, is that it dosen't feel like the WMF was willing to do the bare minimum to work with the community - working via ArbCom would solve that problem. (And, from a PR standpoint, they would benefit from letting ArbCom take the heat for unpopular decisions rather than taking it themselves.) --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 22:28, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== Statement from Jan Eissfeldt, Lead Manager of Trust & Safety == |
== Statement from Jan Eissfeldt, Lead Manager of Trust & Safety == |
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* Regarding the desysoping action taken, my team's reasoning was guided by the precedent set in 2016. You can find a bit more on that in my [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Statement_by_WMFOffice|statement]] to the ArbCom case. |
* Regarding the desysoping action taken, my team's reasoning was guided by the precedent set in 2016. You can find a bit more on that in my [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Statement_by_WMFOffice|statement]] to the ArbCom case. |
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I am continuing to read this and other related pages, and as noted in my ArbCom statement will continue to engage with the community on several other points next week when the public documentation will be ready. [[User:JEissfeldt (WMF)|Jan (WMF)]] ([[User talk:JEissfeldt (WMF)|talk]]) 19:35, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
I am continuing to read this and other related pages, and as noted in my ArbCom statement will continue to engage with the community on several other points next week when the public documentation will be ready. [[User:JEissfeldt (WMF)|Jan (WMF)]] ([[User talk:JEissfeldt (WMF)|talk]]) 19:35, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== Response to Further comments from Jan Eissfeldt == |
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::Thank you for paying attention to community feedback. I want to directly quote part of your ArbCom statement: |
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::::"Though my team followed [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?type=rights&user=WMFOffice&page=Denniss%40commonswiki&wpdate=&tagfilter=&subtype=2016 precedent] for a Foundation desysop of those who attempt to interfere in Office Actions, in deference to the confusion of this case, the Foundation will not be issuing further sanctions against or desysopping those who edited the block or the sysop rights of those who edited the Fram block to date. We defer to Arbcom’s judgment on how to proceed with regard to such behavior issues in this case." |
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::I'm pleased about that, and I hope that it will help to lower the temperature of the discussions here. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 19:41, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::Likewise! [[User:Buffs|Buffs]] ([[User talk:Buffs|talk]]) 17:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*{{re|JEissfeldt (WMF)}} I'd like to ask a follow-up question about process. Whether warranted or not, this action has been immensely disruptive to the community - saying that it has consumed many thousands of volunteer hours is probably an understatement. It should never have come to that. Based on the last decade and more of community responses to controversial actions by WMF, the community's reaction here was entirely predictable. Which makes me wonder |
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** Does the T&S team have procedures to avoid or mitigate obvious, for want of a better word, shitstorms like this one? If T&S doesn't have its own procedures, does WMF? |
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** Assuming that such procedures exist (and I find it hard to imagine that they don't), were they followed here? |
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** If they weren't followed, why weren't they followed? Can you give the community some assurance that they will be in the future? |
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** If they were followed, the procedures are wholly inadequate. Can you assure the community that they will be revised to avoid this? Are you willing to seek community input in revising your procedures? |
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** Once you identified this as a critical incident, what was done? It took three days for you to respond. I assume that wasn't consistent with your crisis response protocol. Can you assure the community that you will ldo a careful post-mortem here, with a clear eye towards identifying and correcting the problems here? |
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* I realise that you are all busy people, but can you commit to updating these procedures in a timely fashion? One month? Six months? This response has burned a whole lot of goodwill from the community to WMF - goodwill that was slowly accumulated since the last crisis. It has also burned thousands of volunteer hours, and if you're in the school of thought that sees volunteer hours in monetary terms, we're talking about many tens of thousands of dollars. Volunteer time is a precious resource. Keep that in mind. Thank you. [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] ([[User talk:Guettarda|talk]]) 20:05, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
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* {{re|JEissfeldt (WMF)}} I guess that link should have been to [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Office_actions Office Action] instead? The other page [https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Support_and_Safety/Annual_Plan_2018-19&action=history hasn't been modified] since 2 April 2018. That policy page says that ''"The Foundation does not hold editorial or supervisory control over content and conduct in the Wikimedia projects; this work is done by a largely autonomous community of volunteers who, in accordance with our Terms of Use, create their own policies meant to uphold the educational goals of our movement. However, in cases where community actions have not been effective and/or legal considerations require us to intervene, we may take actions accordingly."'' The first part seems to repeat what many people have been saying in this discussion. The second part carves out the exception that T&S is relying on. Could you please clearly explain why you do not believe that enwiki community actions have been effective (can you claim they are ineffective if they have not even been tried?) or directly say that the ban was because of legal considerations (that would surely make everybody back off). [[User:Rasmus Faber|Rasmus]] [[User_talk:Rasmus Faber|(talk)]] 21:10, 14 June 2019 (UTC) |
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* {{re|JEissfeldt (WMF)}} {{tq|It has not been our practice, historically, to report changes to T&S policy to the hundreds of local communities we work with.|q=y}} And every time the WMF takes some action that outrages the community this has been the case (and they happen every couple years or so on average). In the spirit of the definition of insanity (repeating the same actions and expecting a different result), ''please'' consider whether that practice is suitable for achieving the overarching goals. Things that ''affect'' this community needs to be ''discussed'' with this community (and I do mean ''discussion'', as equal partners, with real possibility of the WMF changing course as a result). And if there is some critical reason why the WMF has to overrule the community (a legal obligation or whatever), then being ruthlessly open, communicative, and transparent about it is critical. As others have said (I want to especially call out [[Special:PermanentLink/901923211#Comments_from_Risker|Risker's]] and [[Special:PermanentLink/901923211#On_the_Nature_of_Shitstorms:_A_case_study_in_how_to_not_handle_a_T&S_ban|Headbomb's]] messages here), the current situation was both ''predictable'' and ''preventable'': we could have avoided the wasted volunteer hours, the wasted staff hours, and the damage to the trust and to the relationship between the community and T&S and WMF as a whole. --[[User:Xover|Xover]] ([[User talk:Xover|talk]]) 07:32, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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* I translated Jan's comment for the German equivalent of the village pump ([[:de:Wikipedia Diskussion:Kurier#Update]]). I am following your discussion closely since this is an issue that is also highly important for the German wikipedia (see the infinite local ban against [[:de:User:Edith Wahr]] from 19 February). I see some hope in Jan's statement although it is certainly insufficient in some points. It would be very good if a global discussion about WMFOffice bans and T&S could begin as soon as possible, and, as far as I understand, Jan is ready to participate. Where could such a global discussion take place? The discussion on en.wp is necessary and has to be continued, but a global issue should additionally be discussed on meta.--[[User:Mautpreller|Mautpreller]] ([[User talk:Mautpreller|talk]]) 16:26, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::[[:de:Wikipedia:Kurier|German equivalent]] of [[Wikipedia:The Signpost]], you mean, I think.  <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 20:00, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::::No, I don't think so. You are right that the Kurier is a kind of "newspaper" but its talk page is definitely the place where issues of general relevance for the German-language Wikipedia are discussed. We don't have a page "Village pump".--[[User:Mautpreller|Mautpreller]] ([[User talk:Mautpreller|talk]]) 20:13, 15 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::Didn't know that, thanks for the clarification! That will be useful if I ever need to post a notice at dewiki!  <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 14:37, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*So here's something that has troubled me and I'm hopeful that {{u|JEissfeldt (WMF)}} can actually assuage me, and perhaps other members of the community, on. Trust and Safety talks about how they can't do a ban, that they need to go to legal and the executive director to get sign-offs. What percentage of the time '''don't''' those sign-offs happen? A good process for me, and one that would give me confidence that we're not in star chamber territory, would be 3 - 10 percent of the time and maybe a bit higher in looking at [[Conviction rate]]. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 15:00, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== Jan Eissfeldt update (06/17/2019)== |
== Jan Eissfeldt update (06/17/2019)== |
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See the link mentioned above: [[m:Community health initiative/User reporting system consultation/Volunteer sign up page]]- I don't see anyone representing us and I'm not sure how they would do it in any case. The job seems immense and pretty important. [[m:Community health initiative/User reporting system consultation 2019]] Thanks to [[User:RexxS]] for drawing attention to it. I'll admit I knew about it but wasn't about to volunteer! [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 16:04, 19 June 2019 (UTC) |
See the link mentioned above: [[m:Community health initiative/User reporting system consultation/Volunteer sign up page]]- I don't see anyone representing us and I'm not sure how they would do it in any case. The job seems immense and pretty important. [[m:Community health initiative/User reporting system consultation 2019]] Thanks to [[User:RexxS]] for drawing attention to it. I'll admit I knew about it but wasn't about to volunteer! [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 16:04, 19 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== What message did WMF want to communicate to us? == |
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Now, almost a week after the incident, it is clear that there will be no more specifics forthcoming from WMF (nor from Fram, or from anybody else, for this purpose). Does anybody finally understand what message did WMF want to communicate to us (by "us" meaning specifically the English Wikipedia community)? They probably failed to communicate it clearly anyway. but what was the message supposed to be?--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 18:07, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:Well, it is the weekend, and presumably the WMF employees in charge of making such a statement are enjoying a break from work. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 18:20, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:: I will be happy to be proven wrong, but my impression is that they already said everything they had/wanted to say, and now we are left decrypting the message.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 18:41, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::Jan stated that he would engage further, and two of the Board members have also said they were preparing to say more. I think it's very important we be seen to act in good faith, so I think we need to at least give them a more than reasonable period of time to do so before concluding that they have no intent to follow through. (Of course, hopefully, they will respond, and it will be something more than yet another load of say-nothing junk. I can't say as I would wager money on that, but hey, anything's possible.) [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 18:45, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::: My reading of his message was not that they will give us any more details about the incident, but that they will be working with ArbCom / community developing better communication procedures. But may be indeed this thread is still premature, and we can wait a bit longer.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 18:48, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::I'm willing to wait for up to a week or so after Jimbo and Doc report back to us from the board meeting, assuming what they tell us doesn't prove to be yet more accelerant. —[[User:Jéské Couriano|<i style="color: #1E90FF;">A little blue Bori</i>]] [[User talk:Jéské Couriano|<span style="color: #228B22">v^_^v</span>]] <sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Bori!]]</small></sup> 06:58, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:{{ec}} I wouldn't say it's clear at all that "there will be no more specifics forthcoming from WMF". The board meeting was only on Friday, it's been the weekend for two days, and Doc James told us the board were still talking about it. [[User:Boing! said Zebedee|Boing! said Zebedee]] ([[User talk:Boing! said Zebedee|talk]]) 18:22, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:Yeah, I'd tend to agree. I would hope to hear something from the Board members soon, but it's only been a few days. Now, if after next week no more information is forthcoming, I think we might have to conclude that the message we're getting is one normally communicated as a one-finger salute, and decide on our response accordingly. But let's exhaust all other options before it goes that route; that's not a good ending. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 18:26, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:: (Reply to both messages). It might be that the Board will do the job for us and decrypts the message, but absent this I do not think there is any more specifics forthcoming.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 18:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::: Likely the Board is going to keep the ban and the response will be no more information but just restating what they said anyways as we all know the WMF is not very transparent at all and they are one of the least transparent groups I have ever seen [[User:Abote2|Abote2]] ([[User talk:Abote2|talk]]) 20:46, 16 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::: Don't be so pessimistic; they have to balance legitimate privacy concerns and what they tell us, but I think it's glaringly clear to a number of community representatives on the Board that something was wrong and needed addressing. Part of the addressing is how do you feed back that feedback into the Foundation without smashing people flat who, undoubtedly, were doing what they thought was right under the circumstances. We're going to exit this episode still as a community here and with a Foundation to work with. If Foundation staff start to view the community as a minefield it doesn't help. We need some stuff addressed, carefully and thoughtfully. [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] ([[User talk:Georgewilliamherbert|talk]]) 07:02, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::::: I think anyone predicting what the board will or will not do or decide is simply [[psychological projection|projecting]] from whoever makes a prediction. The board met Friday. The issue is complex. The board, is by far and large, made of relatively sane people that are very aware they have a community PR nightmare on their hands, and they may or may not be themselves divided on the issue, or that the issue was too complex to fully resolve in one meeting. "We're looking into it, we'll have more at a later date" is a fine response for now.  <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 16:57, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*Particularly - even if the Board had firmly stated something on the 14th - indicating the WMF teams need to do something (whether that be a new message, a new action etc); weekends notwithstanding, that has to be made...and then run through the same 3 teams as the initial ban. And then the board. So it might take a while - and the Board probably would want to see anything they asked for before saying anything more than a placeholder to us. [[User:Nosebagbear|Nosebagbear]] ([[User talk:Nosebagbear|talk]]) 17:45, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::I expect, from the silence on anything of substance from both Jimbo and James, that we will hear something from someone at some stage. I also expect it will bind T&S to nothing, but speak of implementing the ToU to further the health of the community, and pledge consultations with AC and with others where practical and similar stuff. I would think it possibly unwise for the AC to be the consultant group, given what's likely to happen when someone who is actually popular gets banned under these policies.--[[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] ([[User talk:Wehwalt|talk]]) 17:52, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::As i expected there is no update and the WMF is still one of the least transparent groups I have ever seen [[User:Abote2|Abote2]] ([[User talk:Abote2|talk]]) 20:49, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== Wikimedia consultation on new user reporting system == |
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{{Moved to|Wikipedia talk:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram#Wikimedia consultation on new user reporting system}} Moving OT notification to talk. This is already advertised in [[WP:CENT]] as well. --<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',Geneva,sans-serif">[[User:QEDK|<span style="color:black">qedk</span>]] ([[User talk:QEDK|<span style="color:black">t</span>]] 桜 [[Special:Contributions/QEDK|<span style="color:black">c</span>]])</span> 09:02, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*{{ping|QEDK}} - what's CENT? at least link to that? '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|talk]])''' 09:04, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*: CENT generally refers to this template: {{tlx|Centralized discussion}}. --<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',Geneva,sans-serif">[[User:QEDK|<span style="color:black">qedk</span>]] ([[User talk:QEDK|<span style="color:black">t</span>]] 桜 [[Special:Contributions/QEDK|<span style="color:black">c</span>]])</span> 09:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*::Okay, thanks. '''[[User:Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">starship</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Starship.paint|<span style="color:#512888">.paint</span>]] ([[User talk:Starship.paint|talk]])''' 09:07, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== An interesting paragraph == |
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{{quote|text=Indeed, I have not seen you literally threatening other contributors. But, I have observed the sum of your activity in certain areas of interest (like copyvios, for example, or automated editing) having a similar effect to that of a threat: causing contributors to be scared to continue to contribute in fear of being constantly monitored '''and later attacked through community process''', and eventually driving them away. '''From what I've seen, you are very good at spotting problematic edits and editing patterns'''; the issue is with the way and the perseverance with which you appear to approach the editors responsible for them. '''In many cases, even if your concerns have been valid''', their raising has been done with a degree of abruptness, repetition, scrutiny and persistence that feels like hounding to the person on the receiving end, and causes them to abandon the project or limit their contributions. Now, I don't think this is your intention, but this does seem to be the result in several cases, hence the warning. So, I'm not saying you should stop trying to improve En.WP., only that in doing so you also consider how your activity and approach impacts the users you address and other readers of your comments, and how it contributes to an unfriendly volunteering environment that discourages them from returning to it.|author=Kalliope, WMF T&S|source=Warning email to Fram based on offwiki complaint by unnamed editors, April, 2018}} |
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*We can as well let the admins take a (well-deserved) break ''whilst'' T&S deals with our day-to-day issues. And, I, for one, am very uncomfortable about dealing with folks who persistently violate policy, from now onward; never know which editor feels harassed because I have been reverting their non-policy compliant rubbish, all-the-while. Also, some people '''need''' to be thrown off the project ''or'' their editing activities limited. We have a host of mechanisms including TBans, blocks et al to limit activities. Editing an encyclopedia is not everybody's cup of tea; competency is a fundamental necessity. Frankly there was a degree of non-optimality in Fram's conduct, but for that, a site-ban or a WMF warning?! And, when even his earlier-detractors agree that he has fundamentally improved throughout the last one year? [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style="color: red">∯</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><b style="color:#070">WBG</b></span>]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|<sup><span style="color:#00F">converse</span></sup>]] 14:02, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*{{rto|Winged Blades of Godric}} But that does not matter, even if you are the friendliest and most beloved administrator on this site, you just need to have some occasions of people who ''feel'' (or pretend to feel) harassed because of the material you deleted/edits you reverted/material you tagged/links you blacklisted/socks you blocked. Chilling ... --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 14:14, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*:''Precisely''. Also, there are times when folks choose to bring an editor over AN/ANI, leading to a block/ban. Thus, the editor was {{tq|attacked through community process}}. But, the OP will take the blame for forcing him out of the wiki? [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style="color: red">∯</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><b style="color:#070">WBG</b></span>]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|<sup><span style="color:#00F">converse</span></sup>]] 14:34, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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** These days, there is a '''huge''' push to redefine harassment to be how the person ''perceives'' your conduct, rather than your intent behind it. Many universities have fallen prey to this redefinition, I hope the WMF is not next. Such a definition of harassment is completely unworkable. Maybe one of the requirements to edit on Wikipedia is to have a reasonably thick skin. [[User:Rockstone35|<span style="color:#DF0101"><b>Rockstone</b></span>]][[User talk:Rockstone35|<span style="color:black"><b><small>talk to me!</small></b></span>]] 18:47, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*Sounds like something that they should have gotten a warning on from an admin, except that aspect (for admin conduct) is dysfunctional in enwiki. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 14:45, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:*Well, they did get a warning from an enwiki admin, namely Fram, for persistent copyright violations or other inappropriate edits. Oh...you meant Fram should get a warning, for calling attention to that, telling them to stop, and if they didn't making them stop? Why? [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 14:50, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::*I meant that it sounds like Fram should have gotten a warning from an enwiki admin but such (i.e. where it involves conduct of someone who is an admin) is dysfunctional in enwiki.<b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 15:37, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::*{{u|North8000}}, yes, I know what it is you meant, and I may have been smarting off a bit. But for clarity's sake, I believe it is the person who is introducing copyright violations, errors, etc., who should be receiving warnings and if need be sanctions, not the pesky admin who keeps catching them when they do it. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 15:45, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::{{u|Seraphimblade}} Yes, but what if they way they handled it was itself a behavior problem? BTW, what I would lobby for would be a subset of admins with impeccable credentials/qualities handling (autoconfirmed-up) user conduct issues, including of admins, with more review of admin conduct going on than we have now.<b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 17:15, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::If someone fears that their edits are 'monitored/reviewed/etc' against copyright violations, and that they have a problem with that, I really don't see how that should be an actual issue for the community. Everyone should ''welcome'' copyright scrutiny. If you 'fear' it, it can only mean that you are intent on violating copyright policy despite having been warned against it, and refuse to learn. I know I certainly welcome such scrutiny. Then again, ''I'm not trying to repeatedly include copyright violating material'' in the encyclopedia either.  <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 17:23, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::{{ec}} Okay, if it was it was, and that's a separate issue. But the paragraph Fram quoted essentially stated that Fram was catching people doing these things too often and too well, and that made them feel bad. It reminds me a bit of people who speed, get a speeding ticket, and then yowl about the asshole cop. Well—the cop didn't push your foot down on the gas, Leadfoot. If you don't want to risk a speeding ticket, ''stop speeding''. You're welcome to review my edits for copyright violations, because I'm quite confident there are none to find. And if there are, well, that's an issue that should be corrected. If people are embarrassed and upset when they get caught doing something they shouldn't, the solution isn't "Stop catching them, it makes them feel bad", it is to tell them "Well, ''stop doing that then'', and then there'll be nothing to catch you for!". [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 17:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::::{{u|Seraphimblade}}I think "if it was...that's a separate issue" says it all, and that possibility is the one that I was discussing. BTW, asking this in a friendly way, could the fact that you moved away from looking at the possible "separate issue" three times in our thread be the type of thing that might make enwiki weak on self-policing in this area? Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> ([[User talk:North8000#top|talk]]) 18:06, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::::No, I don't. I think it represents a very deliberate decision made by the community, that issues that damage the integrity of the encyclopedia, such as copyright violations or source misrepresentation, are a great deal more serious than being more terse, blunt, or enthusiastic than one perhaps should have been when calling attention to it. If someone thought Fram really crossed the line, bring that up. If everyone else says "That wasn't a big deal, but what you did was", well, that is what it is. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 18:29, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*If WMF felt that there was justification to issue a conduct warning, why not communicate it onwiki? The WMF is out of their depth here if they think they can approach editors on their own and issue warnings as they please. Their mandate is to step in when the community has failed but this is the WMF exercising their rights without any basis to do so. It's insulting that they will insert themselves into situations and play the big chip where the need for transparency is the biggest. All an editor needs to do now is to convince select members of T&S to agree to the POV and ta-da, you're absolved of the requirement to prove your case. Terrible, terrible behaviour from the paid side of the field. --<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS',Geneva,sans-serif">[[User:QEDK|<span style="color:black">qedk</span>]] ([[User talk:QEDK|<span style="color:black">t</span>]] 桜 [[Special:Contributions/QEDK|<span style="color:black">c</span>]])</span> 15:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*:<small>"We're paid to do ''something''. This is something. Therefore we shall do it!" [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 15:10, 17 June 2019 (UTC)</small> |
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*Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes. [[User:Kudpung|Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]] ([[User talk:Kudpung|talk]]) 15:26, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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* "Warning email to Fram based on offwiki complaint by unnamed editors," is the last bit relevant and accurate, because the author discusses what any can view and their view of it. I'm assuming the author said it was okay to make it public. [[User talk:Cygnis insignis|cygnis insignis]] 15:31, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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* Has this concept of "attack through community process" been floated elsewhere by WMF staff? The community hasn't been great about dealing with repeated incivility, but the above comment departs from discussion of uncivil statements, and frames use of established community processes as attack. This definitely needs clarification. I hope the author just meant forum shopping / vexatious litigating, but my understanding is that Fram has not engaged in this behavior. [[User:Dialectric|Dialectric]] ([[User talk:Dialectric|talk]]) 15:33, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*:(+1). That's a very strange phrase. And, Fram certainly did ''not'' forum-shop. [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style="color: red">∯</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><b style="color:#070">WBG</b></span>]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|<sup><span style="color:#00F">converse</span></sup>]] 15:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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* WTF? "''causing contributors to be scared to continue to contribute in fear of being constantly monitored and later attacked through community process''" is possibly the most ludicrous thing I've ever read. If you don't do anything that is likely to result in censure by community process (whether that be admin action, ANI, ArbCom or whatever) then ''there is no issue''. If you are, then - madness, I know, but - ''stop doing it''. [[User_talk:Black Kite|Black Kite (talk)]] 15:43, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::It stems from the ideological groups who think that criticism is bad and that feelings trump evidence. So from that start point, its perfectly natural to take the view that they should be able to do what they want without oversight. Its a basic incompatible stance with the wiki 'all your contributions are bare to see and be commented on'. [[User:Only in death|Only in death does duty end]] ([[User talk:Only in death|talk]]) 15:50, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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* I'm sure the intended context here is extreme and unwarranted scrutiny, but as written, the words are chilling. Who's willing to track troublesome editor behaviour in an environment like this? [[User:Guettarda|Guettarda]] ([[User talk:Guettarda|talk]]) 15:56, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:*I really think every admin should be made aware of the above comment from the WMF and they should think long and hard before acting in an admin role. I would advise against it, unless they backtrack, and I see no reason to think they will. [[User:Enigmaman|<b style="color: blue;">Enigma</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:Enigmaman|<i style="color: #FFA500;">msg</i>]]</sup> 18:23, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*I thought the WMF got involved here because our community processes had supposedly failed to deal appropriately with Fram. But now it sounds like such processes constitute an attack. Will the WMF please make up its mind? [[User:Lepricavark|Lepricavark]] ([[User talk:Lepricavark|talk]]) 16:06, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*That paragraph from T&S exactly matches my impressions of Fram. It's similar to what was said when Fram was added as a party to a recent ArbCom case, a year after T&S's warning email. Since then, I saw the behavior continue (and I guess whatever I saw was an improvement compared to what came before). I think the WMF has a point that the community has tried and failed to address this (and similar situations) many times in the past. I also think it's a false dichotomy that either we have to totally ignore problematic editors or we have to hound them. There's a lot of room in between, and frankly, if someone can't tell the difference between properly addressing problematic editing, and hounding problematic editors, then that person should just flag the issues and send the diffs to someone else to handle instead of trying to correct the problem themselves. We already have procedures for handling problematic editing in a non-hounding way. For vandalism and edit warring, after a certain number of warnings, there's AIV or EWN, where it's passed off to someone else to handle. It shouldn't be considered OK to just revert and/or repeatedly post messages on an editor's talk page and/or argue with the editor at other pages, instead of reporting them to a noticeboard for further action (that's hounding). It shouldn't be considered OK to bludgeon AIV, ECN, ANI, etc. threads by endlessly arguing with the reported editor. That said, I didn't see anything from Fram recently that warrants a 1-year ban. Whatever happened to steady escalation? If WMF was going to act at all, it should have blocked Fram for a day, a week, a month, or a few months as a first step. Next time the WMF acts in this way, I hope they start with the a short block/ban and escalate from there. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">– [[User:Levivich|Leviv]]<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">[[User Talk:Levivich|ich]]</span></span> 16:09, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*:{{u|Levivich}}, since your impressions {{tq|''exactly matches''}} with T&S', can you please let me know about what is an ''attack through community process'' ? I am genuinely curious. [[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style="color: red">∯</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><b style="color:#070">WBG</b></span>]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|<sup><span style="color:#00F">converse</span></sup>]] 16:16, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*::{{u|Winged Blades of Godric|WBG}}, in my opinion, an example would be the recent Rama Arbcom case. There you have a "problematic edit" (the undeletion of a page), and the editor behind it: received a rude initial message on their talk page 10 minutes after making the problematic edit; was taken to ANI within the hour; to Arbcom within two hours; had a number of editors (Fram among them) posting about their problematic edits every single day for almost three weeks straight, and then they were desysoped. It's true that Rama posted some problematic messages along the way that fanned the flames, but whatever you think about the initial problematic edit, the response was pitchforks and torches: a sustained campaign, all through established processes (like ANI and Arbcom), but a sustained campaign of "you suck, you suck, you suck" on a daily basis from a small handful of editors. Nobody regulated that (though God forbid you vary a section header or go over 500 words). I would call that an attack through community process. Others I'm sure would defend it as totally normal. But all of that could have been done without the rudeness, without the hounding, even if it ended up with the same result. In the Polish/Jewish case, the reported editor said some really horrible things about the filing editor–repeatedly–and got a warning. I'm sure the filing editor felt attacked through community process. (Meanwhile, a CLEANSTART that files too much at ANI just got a one-week block. We block new editors things less egregious while letting veteran editors get away with whatever.) There are examples of similar things at ANI right now. When I filed a recent AE report, I also felt attacked through community process due to calls for a boomerang based on completely-unfounded allegations of forum shopping. I agreed with the ultimate result of the report, but like the Rama case, like the Polish/Jewish case, like almost every case or report, we could have gotten there without so much ugliness. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">– [[User:Levivich|Leviv]]<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">[[User Talk:Levivich|ich]]</span></span> 16:35, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*:::Nice points and I appreciate the thoughts, however much I personally disagree with their contexts. Will reply at your t/p, in some details.[[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style="color: red">∯</span><span style="font-family:Verdana"><b style="color:#070">WBG</b></span>]][[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|<sup><span style="color:#00F">converse</span></sup>]] 16:55, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*There is this ongoing trope about how the community has "failed" to deal with these issues. No, the community has decided that such behavior does not merit a block. There is a subset of the community that insists that civility be enforced in such a way. However they have never been able to gain a consensus for their position, and so because the wider community has rejected, repeatedly, that view this claim that we have failed has become commonplace. No, we have not failed. We decided that saying "fuck arbcom" is not a year-long blockworthy offense. Im sorry that some of you feel that is a failure. But it is your failure for failing to gain consensus for your view that civility be enforced in such a way. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 16:28, 17 June 2019 (UTC)</small> |
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*:That's just a restatement of the alleged failure. WMF's position seems to be that ''because'' the community does not reach consensus that this sort of thing is problematic, the community has therefore failed in regulating civility. The community–or some of the community–wants to say that civility is whatever we say it is. Whereas, the WMF seems to be saying, civility is what ''they'', the WMF, says it is. That's the fundamental disagreement here: who gets to define civility. You can no more assume your definition (or the community's definition) is correct than the WMF can assume theirs is correct. It's not a matter of absolute, objective right or wrong; it's a relative matter of "minimum standards", i.e. definition. So either the community will prevail upon the WMF to accept its definition, it will fork, or the WMF's definition will win. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">– [[User:Levivich|Leviv]]<span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(45deg);bottom:-.57em;">[[User Talk:Levivich|ich]]</span></span> 16:35, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*::I agree with the last sentence. Not much more, but that one yes. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 16:38, 17 June 2019 (UTC)</small> |
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*:::FWIW, there may be a possible resolution in sight (if the WMF are willing to back down): [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fram&diff=355120298&oldid=355117388 see here]. This may not be ideal, but let's see how things go. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 16:42, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*That the WMF feels they can police the community in a way that prioritizes the ''<u>feelings</u>'' of ''people making the actual encyclopedia worse'' over the ''<u>actual non-problematic actions</u>'' of people ''defending the encyclopedia against problematic actions'' is bone-chilling. Foxes guarding the hen house.  <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 17:14, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*: Very well said. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 19:12, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*This is the strongest evidence yet that everyone involved in the decision-making in T&S ought to be busy finding new jobs. This paragraph, if it reflects the general thinking of this group, indicates people who are fundamentally unqualified for the jobs they have. [[User:CoffeeCrumbs|CoffeeCrumbs]] ([[User talk:CoffeeCrumbs|talk]]) 17:27, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*This shows a profound lack of understanding of volunteer work in the context of editing, where senior, experienced, highly-skilled contributors must choose between the quality of the encyclopedia and taking more time to hand-hold fewer of the less skilled, error-prone contributors, instead of correcting their mistakes in a relatively terse fashion and moving on to the mistakes of other less skilled contributors. It's deeply disturbing that WMF doesn't understand this, sad, and disappointing. [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 17:48, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*We come back again and again to the question which has constantly plagued this encyclopedia, from its very heyday, to the infamous "Fuck off" RFC -- What '''is''' civility?--[[User:WaltCip|WaltCip]] ([[User talk:WaltCip|talk]]) 18:37, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*<blockquote>In many cases, even if your concerns have been valid, their raising has been done with a degree of abruptness, repetition, scrutiny and persistence '''that feels like hounding to the person on the receiving end,''' and causes them to abandon the project or limit their contributions.</blockquote> |
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:I.e. recruitment of editors of unknown quality is the aim, and trumps vigilance, competence and commitment by anyone with a proven record. Note in the bolded part that a subjective impression of hurt is accorded greater weight than the recognized technical accuracy of the editor putatively causing 'hurt'. Try translating that into work place practices, telling a foreman who oversees quality control on the production line that, after he has repeatedly noted flaws in the product, and told the assemblers to take more care, that he will be suspended because the head office has heard complaints from individual workers down the line that their feelings are hurt so badly they are considering leaving their job. Jeezus.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 19:52, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:All evidence we've seen thus far suggests that if Fram was making users feel unwelcome, it's because they either aren't a fan of his confrontational habit, and/or were doing stupid things like copyvio. If T&S ''really'' wants to go down this path, I strongly suggest any remaining active admins, particularly those who deal with copyvio and sanctions enforcement, turn in the mop and let T&S deal with them. —[[User:Jéské Couriano|<i style="color: #1E90FF;">A little blue Bori</i>]] [[User talk:Jéské Couriano|<span style="color: #228B22">v^_^v</span>]] <sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Bori!]]</small></sup> 20:30, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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*This paragraph does a great job of summarizing the issue I have with Fram. Xe finds someone doing something problematic and then stays on them forever. We had one editor using "too long of quotes" from sources (which I personally found useful and which almost never came close to violating copyright law) and Fram stayed on him forever. Even as he continued to make shorter and shorter quotes (all well within fair use). And others jumped on the same user (who certainly had had other serious problems in the past, but was at the time editing within policy). And Fram has done similar things with others. Yes, we have rules. And yes, people screw them up. But once you get on Fram's radar, it seems like any error, any contribution that has a mild problem (even if that problem isn't against policy) gets blown up. I also agree with others that the community has concluded that such behavior is acceptable, or even useful. Lots of people (including folks I generally agree with on things) feel that way. I strongly disagree. It drives away good editors and potential new editors. It hurts Wikipedia. And not just because it drives away the person being hounded. I suspect others see these interactions and say "na, this isn't the place for me". And sure, within our culture "Fuck Arbcom" isn't hugely uncivil. And I'd not argue it should deserve a block by itself. But if I were a relative newbie and saw that from a community leader, I'd be much less likely to stick around. I suspect that's true of most people (and probably women and older editors at a higher rate than males and younger ones). |
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: Basically, I think parts of the en.wikipedia culture are toxic. And I think Fram is one of the more toxic people. Well intentioned and darn productive. But hounding at times to the point the environment becomes toxic. In a regular user, it's unacceptable. In an admin, it's destructive. |
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:That said, a block like this, out of the blue by T&S is also bad for EN.WP. If T&S wants to tell the community that it sees a problem, it should start by saying that, not by just blocking. It creates a differently bad environment to just block like this. If the community can't clean up its act, maybe at that point T&S needs to start issuing blocks. But only with plenty of due warning to both the individual (which seems to have happened here) and the community (which did not). But I feel it's the community that needs to get its act together. T&S was, IMO, accurate in their assessment of the problem. But they way they handled it was as bad or worse than doing nothing. They need to engage the community, not just start issuing citations without talking to the community first. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 21:16, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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:I have several concerns about the T&S comment "even if your concerns have been valid, their raising has been done with a degree of abruptness, repetition, scrutiny and persistence that feels like hounding". I have argued in the past that some of our CSD tags and some of our other template bombing could do with being less abrupt. I'm OK with G10s being abrupt and in the past when I've patrolled newpages I have deleted some articles as G10s in the moment they were created, an abruptness that I think was merited. But our policy remains that only A1 and A3 tags should not be applied in the first moments after an article is created. I would like to see that policy broadened to some other templates, but, and here I disagree with the WMF approach. I think it wrong to criticise people for edits currently within policy. Better to change the policy and then criticise those who don't follow the revised policy. In my view, trying to change policy by criticising edits that follow a policy that you object to is incivil and disruptive - I have seen it at RFA more than once where an editor will oppose for behaviour that is within policy but which they disagree with. Some of the tools that we use here to scrutinise sub par edits and deal with repetitive mistakes have actually been written or are supported by the WMF. Use Rollback and it takes you to the rest of the contributions by the editor whose edits you have just reverted. [[:Special:NewPagesFeed]] gives you an option to search for pages created by username. If the WMF doesn't want us to use some of the tools they maintain or even have created then please talk to us about the tools and we can tell you why sometimes it is just efficient for the editor who has tagged or fixed one problem to then deal with a slew of near identical problems. I'm sure for many goodfaith newbies who have made a bunch of newbie errors then that can result in information overload via templating and notifications. But is the solution with the volunteer using the tools on this site to deal with "valid concerns"? Or should we be trying to engineer a gentler less bitey site where warning templates get autoconsolidated, at least for people who haven't edited since the first of a dozen deletion notifications was slapped on their talkpage? ''[[User:WereSpielChequers|<span style="color:DarkGreen">Ϣere</span>]][[User talk:WereSpielChequers|<span style="color:DarkRed">Spiel</span>]]<span style="color:#CC5500">Chequers</span>'' 23:10, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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::G10 and G12 should be abrupt. I'm willing to accept that the pace of all the other ones be slowed down except in the circumstances where the CSD has a built-in warning period (G13, F4-6 and F11) to at least 72 hours to allow the user an opportunity to correct the issues, but I'm not sure how effective this would be in practise. —[[User:Jéské Couriano|<i style="color: #1E90FF;">A little blue Bori</i>]] [[User talk:Jéské Couriano|<span style="color: #228B22">v^_^v</span>]] <sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Bori!]]</small></sup> 23:20, 17 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== A suggested resolution == |
== A suggested resolution == |
Revision as of 05:44, 20 June 2019
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User:Fram banned for 1 year by WMF office
This section holds the original announcement of Fram's one-year ban on the bureaucrats' noticeboard, and the comments of many editors. Most of these comments were made prior to follow-up statements from Fram and the WMF and may be outdated. Further discussion probably belongs in a newer section of this page.
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Fram (talk · contribs · logs · block log) Please note admin User:Fram has been banned for 1 year as per Office action policy by User:WMFOffice. - Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 17:56, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
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Statement from the WMF Trust & Safety Team
(edit conflict) Dear members of the English Wikipedia community,
We have been approached by several volunteers with questions concerning the recent Office Action, the time-limited partial Foundation ban of User:Fram covering your project. As we saw similar questions also being asked in your discussions around the project, including here, we thought it is most accessible to interested community members to provide clarifications publicly here:
- What made the Foundation take action at all and why at this specific time?
- As described on the Metapage about Office actions, we investigate the need for an office action either upon receipt of complaints from the community, or as required by law. In this case we acted on complaints from the community.
- All office actions are only taken after a thorough investigation, and extensive review by staff. This process usually takes about four weeks.
- Office actions are covering individuals and not just individual user accounts. Therefore, the measure covers more than one user account in this case.
- Who made the complaint to the Foundation?
- The Foundation always aims to be as transparent as possible with office actions. However, as outlined in the general information section of the office actions page, we also prioritize the safety of involved parties and legal compliance. Therefore, we do not disclose who submitted community complaints.
- Why did the Foundation only ban for a year?
- As part of the Improving Trust and Safety processes program, less intrusive office actions were introduced. Those options include time-limited and partial (project-specific) bans to address serious concerns that are, however, temporary or project-specific in nature. For example, if a user has been problematic on one project in particular while contributing without concerns to another community wiki, this can now be addressed in a more targeted way than a full Foundation global ban.
- Why did the Foundation de-sysop? Does this mean that Fram will not be an administrator when his ban ends in 2020?
- The removal of administrator access is intended as enforcement of the temporary partial Foundation ban placed on Fram. It is the community’s decision what to do with Fram’s administrator access upon the expiration of the Office Action ban.
- What kind of appeal is possible against this office action?
- As a this time-limited Foundation ban is an outcome of a regular office action investigation, it is governed by the same rules already familiar from Foundation global bans: it does not offer an opportunity to appeal.
As the team carrying out office action investigations, Trust and Safety starts cases from the position that it is up to volunteers to decide for themselves how they spend their free time within the frame of the Terms of Use and the local community’s rules provided for in section 10 of them. The Terms of Use do not distinguish whether a user participates by creating and curating content, building tools and gadgets for peers doing so, helping out as a functionary handling admin, checkuser or oversight tools or in other forms. However, on occasion community members submit evidence strongly indicating cases where local communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own autonomous rules but the Terms of Use, too. We will continue to consider these rare cases brought to our attention under the framework of the office actions policy. Best regards, WMFOffice (talk) 20:58, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- However, on occasion community members submit evidence strongly indicating cases where local communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own autonomous rules but the Terms of Use, too. We will continue to consider these rare cases brought to our attention under the framework of the office actions policy. So does that mean you have determined that the ENWP's community failed to uphold its own rules or the TOU in relation to Fram, despite no actual case, action or report being raised against Fram on ENWP? Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:02, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- Of all the non-answers I've seen in my life, that's possibly one of the most long winded. Reyk YO! 21:08, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- Award-winning. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:09, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
@WMFOffice: What was it about this complaint that meant it required investigation and action by WMF Trust and Safety instead of enwiki's ArbCom? If you cannot state this publicly (even in general terms), please send an explanation to ArbCom's private mailing list so they can confirm that there were good reasons for this action to be handled in this matter. WJBscribe (talk) 22:47, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Alternative proposal: The WMF was wrong to ban Fram, and we reject this overreach and have no confidence in the WMF's handling of office bans.
Support response to WMF (alternative proposal)
- Support – I'm adding a new heading, because I don't think "go bonkers" is quite the right reaction. I don't know how I should format this, so feel free to change it. As I mentioned above, I think Seraphimblade has the right idea. KSFT (t|c) 09:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Do you mean ban WMF accounts? I'd count that as going bonkers (and I'm in favor of going bonkers), but it is silly and wouldn't change anything (try to realistically imagine how it would play out). 67.164.113.165 (talk) 09:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 2) I mean that we should start by making clear statements, like, I hope, the one I wrote above, and that we should consider later symbolic protests like imposing a community ban on WMF accounts, possibly including WMFOffice. As much as I seem to agree with you, I don't think "go bonkers" is a particularly useful call to action here. This isn't mutually exclusive with the heading above. KSFT (t|c) 09:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Do you want to suggest an alternative wording to "go bonkers"? Would "throw a gauntlet" work for you? What I mean is take non-symbolic action that potentially leads to disruption (e.g. the idea of an admin strike: who needs to do shitty volunteer work day and night if the result is to be treated like this?). Banning WMF accounts would be symbolic (i.e. ineffectual) and disruptive, which seems even more bonkers to me. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 09:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Just ban the ones that do not have a responsible person attached. We already have a policy that an account must be for a single user. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 13:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Do you want to suggest an alternative wording to "go bonkers"? Would "throw a gauntlet" work for you? What I mean is take non-symbolic action that potentially leads to disruption (e.g. the idea of an admin strike: who needs to do shitty volunteer work day and night if the result is to be treated like this?). Banning WMF accounts would be symbolic (i.e. ineffectual) and disruptive, which seems even more bonkers to me. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 09:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 2) I mean that we should start by making clear statements, like, I hope, the one I wrote above, and that we should consider later symbolic protests like imposing a community ban on WMF accounts, possibly including WMFOffice. As much as I seem to agree with you, I don't think "go bonkers" is a particularly useful call to action here. This isn't mutually exclusive with the heading above. KSFT (t|c) 09:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Do you mean ban WMF accounts? I'd count that as going bonkers (and I'm in favor of going bonkers), but it is silly and wouldn't change anything (try to realistically imagine how it would play out). 67.164.113.165 (talk) 09:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. This is not mutually exclusive with the Support I will be giving above. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 09:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support- again, this complements my support of the "bonkers" section. Reyk YO! 09:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support of course they were wrong. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support per Fæ. If the WMF can persuade ARBCOM this was justified, that would be adequate, but to have not even attempted to do so is overreach. Even as a new user, I'm shocked. GreyGreenWhy (talk) 09:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm sorry this is one of your first looks at behind-the-curtain stuff. This doesn't paint anyone involved in any sort of a good light. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 09:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I appreciate the comments in opposition to this, and my support can be considered withdrawn if arbcom or the community board members express confidence this was okay. Thanks, GreyGreenWhy (talk) 12:08, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. MER-C 09:29, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Partial Support. I wasn't generally opposed to WMF's handling of Office Bans because there are some that clearly need to be done. But this is clear overreach and is firmly overstepping into issues that the community and ArbCom should have been left to handle. The T&S squad has appointed itself as an unaccountable civility police. That's a chilling development and presents an environment under which I will not work. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Obviously Per all above. ∯WBGconverse 09:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - Per everything. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:02, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- There are some issues that need to be handled privately, but this is not one of them. For a WMF employee to appoint themselves as en-wiki's Civility Cop and start handing out additional blocks and bans because they don't feel we're being harsh enough is a gross abuse of their position. For a WMF employee to be so clueless that they're unaware of how much reputational damage this would cause is incompetence rising to the level of outright misconduct. ‑ Iridescent 10:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, they should be encouraged to seek alternative employment. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - of course. GiantSnowman 10:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support and one wonders if this piece of gross mismanagement is the WMF's new method of removing their critics, in which case a lot of us should be severely concerned. Black Kite (talk) 10:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well, if was good enough for the Nazis and the North Koreans... The Rambling Man (talk) 10:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- This was bound to happen eventually... —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 13:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well, if was good enough for the Nazis and the North Koreans... The Rambling Man (talk) 10:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - — Amakuru (talk) 10:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. What Iridescent said. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support as an alternative to bonkers, which is my preferred choice. Chris Troutman (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- ~Swarm~ {sting} 10:52, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support as second choice to the above - SchroCat (talk) 10:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support No confidence in WMF's handling of this office ban, anyway. Jheald (talk) 11:28, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- * Pppery * it has begun... 11:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Prefer this one after reflection on Boing's oppose. – Teratix ₵ 11:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. The handling of this has been unacceptable; I have been reading and drafting responses to this thread for too long - a statement of lack of confidence is important, but other action may also be required. My guess is that at the very least, a number of experienced people will get completely disenchanted with the whole thing and gafiate (a pretty useful term, even though this isn't fandom). --bonadea contributions talk 12:37, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support --Fæ (talk) 12:37, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support -- In fact, I am very tempted to take the next year off in protest. -- Dolotta (talk) 12:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Absolutely outrageous the WMF would trample over Arbcom and all our processes this way.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:51, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sandstein 13:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support per everything. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 13:36, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Partial support along the lines of Boing. I found Fram's actions towards ArbCom troubling, especially when ArbCom decided to started making changes in response to Fram's decision to clerk through protection like sectioning themselves (which is silly) because it suggested Fram cowed ArbCom. I still cannot in any form or factor support the WMF Office action in response. ArbCom was wrong to not stand up for itself. We the community were wrong to not stand up to Fram in a stronger way about their actions towards ArbCom. And yet despite that wrong and that inability/failure of the community to act WMF got it wrong in more substantive substantial ways with this action. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 13:40, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- There are some bans that absolutely have to be done, and whose reasons are unsuitable for public discussion. Arbcom spent years trying to get WMF to take over child protection bans, for example. But WMF needs to remember that the legitimacy of their bans depends on a limited reservoir of community goodwill, and that reservoir can easily be depleted by this kind of overreach. T. Canens (talk) 13:43, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support; aside from the fact that this specific ban appears totally unjustified based on the evidence so far presented, the idea that we will now have two overlapping and competing bodies (one paid, one volunteer; one accountable to the community, one not) dealing with routine conduct and civility issues is a terrible idea for many reasons, made worse by the fact that it was imposed on the community without any input or consultation, and made worse still by the fact that the first target was a long-standing administrator well-known for offering legitimate, on-point criticism of the WMF's various bureaucratic overreaches and technical foul-ups. This really stinks, and needs to be pushed back on with whatever means we have at our disposal. 28bytes (talk) 13:52, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support to the same extent as my support for the previous proposal. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 13:56, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Disgraceful and sinister (ab)use of power that undermines the open and community-based decision-making of the project. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 13:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support certainly a broad statement, but it's pretty hard to have confidence right now. What concerns me is that the WMF apparently thinks they will get away with this. Lepricavark (talk) 14:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support at a minimum. Outrageous. No such user (talk) 15:15, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Support First choice. Again, not exclusive of my support of other options, but we need to send T&S a vote of no confidence right back at them for their vote of no confidence at the community. rdfox 76 (talk) 15:17, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - what a clusterfuck. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 15:35, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. I largely agree with several of the "Oppose" voters, particularly Deskana and TonyBallioni—Trust and Safety has up to this point had a good track record and I don't see any reason to question their actions up until recently in applying global bans. However, from the evidence brought forth so far, it seems that as a result of the T&S consultation and the changes to allow a broader spectrum of office actions than permanent global bans, T&S feels empowered to expand its scope of practice well beyond what they've done competently in the past, and beyond what (IMO) even their revised policies support. I think a vote of "no confidence" in the parliamentary sense is justified—not that nothing they do can be presumed competent, but because going forward there's going to be a big element of uncertainty as to whether an office action was for the horrific misconduct we expect or for tone-policing. Choess (talk) 16:02, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Unless and until T&S and the WMF have satisfactorily explained this action - which they have not done to this point - then supporting this proposal is a necessary step. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:03, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support as per those above. –Davey2010Talk 19:52, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support pbp 22:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support, obviously, Huldra (talk) 23:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Partial support I don't believe that "go bonkers" was intended literally, and our sea of indignant words must be reinforced with action or the WMF will simply wait us out. Boycotts are effective. Miniapolis 01:18, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support per Fæ. Oshawott 12 ==()== Talk to me! 02:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Benjamin (talk) 04:16, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support, in the "parliamentary sense" as mentioned above. Prior to this, I did know why some WMF bans were implemented (granted, the WMF still didn't say, but I was already familiar with the background). Those bans were entirely appropriate and necessary, and were folks who we very much do not want around. However, they seem to be extending their reach to interfere with normal community policy enforcement, and based upon the accounts of editors from the German and Chinese projects, does not seem to be the first time they've done it, nor the first time they did it badly and upset those communities. I do not have confidence in WMF to take those kind of actions; community processes are already in place to deal with regular on-wiki misconduct and that should not be tampered with by WMF. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:22, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - think it was excessive and opaque. starship.paint (talk) 05:37, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Agree with this statement. ST47 (talk) 10:11, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Partial support following Boing! said Zebedee's comment above, some WMF bans are necessary, but this ban appears to be overreach. The WMF has not yet made a strong case as to why this could not have been handled by arbcom. Dialectric (talk) 14:03, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. There appears to have been a secret trial without the right of representation, defense or appeal. That's not the way community projects should work. Nor is it even the way these things work in the non-virtual world. DrKay (talk) 16:32, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - This ban in particular is ridiculous based off what we know. A substantial amount of faith has been lost. Anarchyte (talk | work) 16:35, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support per Iri. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:03, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. I have no idea whether Fram deserved a ban, but the WMF was definitely wrong to ban him. --Yair rand (talk) 21:39, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - Office actions should be limited to legally necessary steps, and privacy requirements should not be used to keep civility sanctions trials secret. EllenCT (talk) 00:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I support the handling of civility issues using on wiki processes such as ANI and Arbcom, while recognizing that harrassment issues require privacy. Unfortunately, I despair at the thought of codifying the distinction.S Philbrick(Talk) 16:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support If the WMF is now asserting en.wiki are their own personal fiefdom, I'm out. A little confused by people who oppose any action. You're going to sit back and take this? I don't care how you feel about Fram. I don't have any personal feelings about him. What has been happening is outrageous. We have given them plenty of time to apologize or backtrack and all they've done is double down and triple down. As for 'confidence', given what they've done (whoever they are, I have no idea if every action/edit is signed off on by every member of the team or not), I have zero confidence in them to handle any cases whatsoever. Competence issue. Enigmamsg 16:30, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Are we in CIR territory for trust and safety? Tazerdadog (talk) 09:54, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support per Boing --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:19, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support: "Trust and Safety" are not trustworthy or safe. Jonathunder (talk) 19:03, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support: This is mutually inclusive of my support for above. The Wikimedia Foundation should not be micromanaging individual Wikis; and this type of unacceptable behavior has occurred in the past. I have no confidence in the WMF going forward. Rockstonetalk to me! 07:54, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support: Office actions should be taken only when necessary as required by law. WMF has not even made a bare claim that this action was a legal necessity. I vehemently reject any notion that the WMF should be the behavior police for en.wikipedia. The mere fact that taking this action entered into their head has caused me to lose confidence in their decision making. Sperril (talk) 21:57, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Given that we have yet to get a straight answer to the simplest of questions from either T&S or the WMF board. I am supporting all options that oppose the WMF's totalitarianism. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- With the caveat that this doesnt apply to global bans, none of which Ive seen as a problem. nableezy - 04:10, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support --Hubertl (talk) 09:34, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. I have read most of this page and a bunch of the long list of ArbCom statements this quite honestly terrifies me. There was no reason for this to be kept secret, otherwise why was the ban only on en.wiki and not global, and why did it have to be resolved by the WMF rather than by ArbCom or just the community? I feel like the WMF have been taking some pointers on how to moderate this site from the charlatans who run Quora, i.e. in the most opaque way possible and usurping the responsibility to do so from the community, to whom that responsibility has always fallen. This is wrong and the absurd "temporary desysopping" of Floquenbeam is even more wrong. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 08:21, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Oppose response to WMF (alternative proposal)
- Oppose. I don't agree with the above statement, because I think it is far too broad. I haven't yet looked in detail into the circumstances of Fram's ban. However, even assuming that the ban was handled improperly, I do not agree with the blanket statement that I "have no confidence in the WMF's handling of office bans". The vast majority of their bans are reasonable, so if this ban was handled improperly then I would say that my confidence would be reduced, but I would not say that I "have no confidence" at all. --Deskana (talk) 11:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Deskana. I personally do feel the way the WMF handled this was very poor, and I'm not convinced they should have gotten involved in the way they did. But I also don't feel I've seen enough to be able to comment reliably and in any case it's only one particular action (or a series of actions about one editor). And I do find a number of the comments Fram has made that I've seen before, and I don't just mean the ones highlighted here, the sort of commentary which I feel harms a community. Whether they were bad enough to warrant sanction, I make no comment in part because I haven't looked into them in detail and I'm also unsure how far we should go in requiring civility etc. (And I repeat what I said that I'm unconvinced it made sense for the WMF to involve themselves the way they did.) But I was very reluctant to post this because I didn't want to paint a target on my back from anyone. I ultimately plucked up the courage due in large part to someone who is either new or socking and Deskana the first (and only when I wrote this) to oppose either proposal as well as coming to the realisation that I don't really care that much what others think. And I trust that however people may disagree what I've said, it's not going to be strong enough reaction to encourage doxing or anything untenable. So whatever the WMF have done wrong, I do think we need to consider how we have responded. P.S. Give the two principles of 'don't care enough' and 'this is a mess all around and I don't like a lot of what I'm seeing', this will probably be my last involvement in the matter. Nil Einne (talk) 11:43, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose 1) Let's wait and see if the board reps feel it was justified as a ban (even if badly handled). 2) As Deskana says, I don't have no faith in their office bans - we are instead concerned with a growing overreach of their responsibility. Nosebagbear (talk) 11:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as far too broad per Deskana. The handling of this particular block was terrible but we don't know enough to understand whether it was reasonable or not. Other office blocks that I know about (e.g. from my time on arbcom) were absolutely correct and handled appropriately. Thryduulf (talk) 12:02, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- the problem with that argument is that firstly its not enough to be reasonable but it also has to be reasonable for the WMF to do it through the office mechanism. The other issue is that it appears this block is so flawed that it is difficult to have any faith in their actions going forward.©Geni (talk) 13:51, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Every office action I know enough details of to have a firm opinion about was a correct use of the office mechanism. I do not agree that the publicly available evidence gives the appearance that this block is flawed - it simply shows that the communication of the block was flawed; we do not have enough evidence to know whether the block was flawed or not. My gut feeling is that it was not, but I will happily change my view if the evidence shows otherwise. Even if this was an error, it does not rise to the level that I have no confidence going forward. Thryduulf (talk) 17:09, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- the problem with that argument is that firstly its not enough to be reasonable but it also has to be reasonable for the WMF to do it through the office mechanism. The other issue is that it appears this block is so flawed that it is difficult to have any faith in their actions going forward.©Geni (talk) 13:51, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Deskana. I aware of the circumstances of a number of the office bans and in all of those cases they were done properly and were warranted. Gamaliel (talk) 13:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as too broad. I do have confidence that the office has, at least up to this point, made appropriate and necessary bans, and that they likely can in the future. —DoRD (talk) 14:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- In favour of alt 2. I have general confidence in their ability to handle bans. It just appears this one was a pretty large mistake. Basically what DoRD said. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I have confidence in office bans. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Deskana and Gamaliel. SusunW (talk) 18:04, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per others. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Gamaliel. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per my opposition below to alt 2. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:23, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose, sometimes privacy is needed. AdA&D 21:24, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Deskana and Gamaliel and AnnedrewAndrewandDrew. --Rosiestep (talk) 00:22, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose really, nobody should be drawing conclusions based on no information. Banedon (talk) 00:54, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Deskana and Gamaliel.--Vulphere 10:07, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose As I say far below, I have been involved with cases like this, and it is often not that black and white. Moreover (to mirror one or two other attitudes here) there is a major issue with users and admins who think they can do what the hell they like, and that policy (due to IAR) does not apply to them.Slatersteven (talk) 09:37, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose: Premature to take any action at this stage.--Ipigott (talk) 11:00, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose—Per quite a few of the comments in this section. Tony (talk) 09:00, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose – this statement is absurdly overconfident considering how little we know about the details of the situation. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose – per others. SD0001 (talk) 17:14, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per the last sentence of Deskana's comment. Abequinn14 (talk) 15:11, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Alternative proposal 2: The WMF was wrong to ban Fram
Support response to WMF (alternative proposal 2)
- Regardless of broader issues they've failed to provide any justification for a block or the need for the block to be carried out by the WMF using the office mechanism. There is no evidence that they have any such justification and what evidence is availible strongly suggests they don't.©Geni (talk) 13:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Obviously. This support is not mutually exclusive with the others I have supported. Reyk YO! 13:56, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Assuming that the information we have access to is accurate and complete, I support this statement. —DoRD (talk) 14:17, 11 June 2019 (UTC)- I now know that the information available then was incomplete, so I can no longer support this. —DoRD (talk) 11:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
TonyBallioni (talk) 14:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)- per striking per DoRD. My concern is with this being done locally only. I do not know if it was justified, so I should not be supporting this. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:22, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Per DoRD and Geni. Currently, there is no information available to suggest that this was an appropriate action. Regards SoWhy 14:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yep. GiantSnowman 14:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think Fram should have been desysopped and banned for his behavior a long time ago. I also think it should have come from ArbCom or the community, not WMF. --Rschen7754 14:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm concerned that the quantity of proposals floating around here will muddy the waters and result in us all getting bogged down in disagreements. We need to provide a united front to the WMF letting them know that we are not okay with what they did and that there will be consequences. We may need to take a bit longer to work out exactly what those consequences should be, but for now this proposal is a good starting point. Lepricavark (talk) 14:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- From the evidence we have, I think the statement is correct. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support as third and weakest choice. Again, this is not exclusive of my support of other options. rdfox 76 (talk) 15:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- SQLQuery me! 15:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. If a WMF employee were to open an ArbCom civility case, that would have been more likely to accomplish the WMF’s apparent goal of deopping one of its biggest critics. But that didn’t happen, so here we are. This is a new low for the WMF. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 15:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- This is the one I am comfortable to support. The case must have been referred to ArbCom to follow usual dispute resolution avenues. The office action is not appropriate in this case (on the basis of what we currently know).--Ymblanter (talk) 15:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sandstein 16:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't understand what was so problematic with those sports edits, it appeared Fram just added templates. The Arbcom comments were a bit harsh but not enough to warrant even a block, let alone an office action. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 16:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- If Fram's description of the precipitating events is accurate - and we have no reason to believe it is not, given the absence of a substantive response from WMF - then the block was unjustified. It is also unjustified in that no community involvement was sought, and there is no apparent reason that T&S couldn't have referred the case to ArbCOm and allow normal processess to work. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:08, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Assuming Fram's description is accurate. * Pppery * it has begun... 19:06, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- pbp 23:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Reading through the opposes, the issue is not so much the one-year unappealable ban (which, based on the facts we know from Fram, I believe is excessive, but opinions may differ), it's that the ban should never have gone through Office in the first place, then the completely botched handling of post-ban events. – Teratix ₵ 23:43, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support, although in light of increasing evidence I think we're parsing this major screw-up to death. We, the backbone of WP, deserve more respect. Miniapolis 01:25, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Especially considering the way it was done, this should be uncontroversial. Benjamin (talk) 04:18, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - think it was excessive and opaque. starship.paint (talk) 05:37, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Firstly, the opacity is a problem. The ban is inexplicable, no explanation has been offered. The combination of both its urgency, and its limited duration, are even more puzzling. But the real problem is that in the absence of any adequate explanation, the rumour mill is now circulating its own which offers a plausible explanation that reflects very badly on WMF. In the absence of anything else, that's the version which will have legs. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:51, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - in addition to the arguments above, if the Arbcom had a COI because Fram used uncivil language, they should have been given the opportunity to make that decision themselves. EllenCT (talk) 00:58, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Given that we have yet to get a straight answer to the simplest of questions from either T&S or the WMF board. I am supporting all options that oppose the WMF's totalitarianism. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:41, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support – Based on the information that is publicly available, the WMF banned Fram from the English Wikipedia for being one of their biggest critics. Every other justification has proven spurious at best. I was already uneasy with the manner in which the WMF exercised its authority, but this is by far their most draconian decision yet. It almost makes me want to quit the site in protest. Kurtis (talk) 07:12, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support, as second choice to alt3. Though I do have my reservations. I am particularly concerned about the fact that this is a case being dealt through a public vote, even though this case involves private evidence. With that thought, I have no idea if this vote is what I would have voted if the WMF was more transparent on this matter. Abequinn14 (talk) 15:27, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Oppose response to WMF (alternative proposal 2)
- Civility and respect, one of the five pillars, is at best a weak suggestion these days. I have no problems with T&S taking action against users who have a years-long track record of incivility and making rude/nasty comments to people. I would like to see the WMF being more transparent about this type of ban, however, and will be recommending that to them. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 15:09, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Per Ajraddatz. I can't say I'm an expert in all things Fram-related, but i don't object in principle to a civility-related block from the WMF for a longtime offender. Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:36, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Exactly per Ajraddatz. The problem with this block is how it was communicated, not that it was made. Thryduulf (talk) 15:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Since we don't know the entire circumstances, how do you know that the block itself was not problematic? Are you saying that it is justified based on the evidence in Fram's statement? I don't see that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Since we do not know the entire circumstances we know only that the block was poorly communicated and widely unpopular. This does not equate to it being incorrect. Based on what I do know (which includes things from off-wiki sources*) I believe it is more likely than not that this block was a reasonable application of the terms of use. If the review by Jimbo and the board finds otherwise I will revise my opinion. (*I cannot ottomh remember the privacy of this material (I'd guess it dates from circa September 2018 but that is plus or minus several months) so I will assume that I cannot disclose it here). Thryduulf (talk) 17:43, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Since we don't know the entire circumstances, how do you know that the block itself was not problematic? Are you saying that it is justified based on the evidence in Fram's statement? I don't see that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Ajraddatz and Calliopejen1. Gamaliel (talk) 16:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Ajraddatz, Calliopejen1, and Montanabw. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Ajraddatz, Calliopejen1, and Thryduulf. SusunW (talk) 18:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per others. How can anyone support this, while complaining about not knowing the facts of the case? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- For the same reasons outlined above by Ajraddatz. I might as well indicate my support here. We should avoid making statements until we know all the info, and I do think we have unaddressed conduct problems at a decently high level. :/ –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:05, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Ajraddatz, Calliopejen1, Thryduulf and Montanabw. Fram should have been banned for life a long time ago. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:13, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Ajraddatz. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:21, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Ajraddatz. I find it embarrassing that Fram apparently thinks he's not had enough warnings and was banned over one (emphasis his) edit. Banedon (talk) 00:42, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose As I've explained before, I think the WMF handled this poorly. I can't judge whether or not they were wrong to ban Fram without further info. I do have concerns over the way Fram generally interacts and am not sure whether them being the one to ban was the best course of action although I do understand the great difficulties privacy issues create. While I also understand the concern some community members have about the apparent secrecy of the proceedings (complaints, evidence etc) even when it comes to Fram themselves, I also understand that the WMF we probably be between a rock and a hard place given their legal obligations and reasonable expectations they have on the information they received, as well as the nature of the internet making any NDA or similar difficult. (If these sort of things were to happen at an employment or university level for example, the person will often be entitled to a fair amount of detail over what is alleged but may also be binded by an NDA or similar as well as various other legal recourses relating to harassment etc if there is concern over details of the complaint resulting in harassment etc.) The way this was handled is of course not that different from the way a lot over websites will handle complaints, the problem is we have a community where this is very far from the norm. I really have no idea how to proceed from here, but do think this action is not it. Not without a lot of further info and as said, I'm not even sure if we should ever have that further info. Nil Einne (talk) 03:31, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Per Ajraddatz. – Ammarpad (talk) 06:46, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Ajraddatz.--Vulphere 10:09, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Again, they may have had no reason or a very good reason. The simple fact is we do not know, and we need to protect all users (dare I say it even IP's), not just certain admins and their buddies..Slatersteven (talk) 09:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose WMF may block users who violate the terms of service, that's not the community's job. I don't agree with how this has been communicated, but I can't make the argument this was wrong not knowing everything that went into this just because I don't like it. SportingFlyer T·C 03:56, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thought about this more now that I understand what happened better. If Fram violated the Terms of Use of the website, why are they only banned from English-language wikipedia? Shouldn't a TOU breach be a global ban, even if temporary? I still don't support any of these proposals, since none of them get to the real issue: perhaps they were right to ban Fram for a TOU violation, I still don't know their side, and the TOU says they have leeway to do what they want, but the actual actions are confusing here. SportingFlyer T·C 16:24, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose We don't have all the information, so we can't say the Wikimedia Foundation was wrong in banning Fram. The manner in which they executed it was wrong, but that is a different matter. NoahTalk 01:08, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose—It's presumptuous to claim to know the details. Get a grip. Tony (talk) 09:01, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Without all of the information, it's impossible to say for sure whether it was wrong to ban Fram. However, based on the information that is available publicly, I concur with Ajraddatz et al. --Deskana (talk) 21:03, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. We can't possibly know whether or not the ban on Fram was justified. Those who say the issue should have been handled by Arbcom have overlooked T&S saying it is "improper to ask the Arbcom to adjudicate a case in which it was one primary target of the person in question, as this could put volunteers into a very difficult position and create the appearance of a conflict of interest regardless of the actual handling of the case." How very true. Imagine the screams had Arbcom taken this action. Moriori (talk) 21:51, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose As others have said, the WMF have access to details that we don't have and shouldn't have. Given that, I have no idea if the ban was justified or not. - Bilby (talk) 07:33, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose, not something the community is able to determine.
- Oppose can't say without the evidence being revealed. SD0001 (talk) 17:17, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Alternative proposal 3: Work towards the position where Office local actions are appealable to ArbCom
I think we can assume that almost nobody took real offence at Fram's posts which were the stated reason for the ban, otherwise they would have ended up at ANI or ArbCom, so it's likely that most folks on enwiki would have viewed the "fuck ArbCom" post as a bit of venting following a badly worded message from ArbCom. Fram is a highly valued, long term editor and admin, and despite any differences we've had, I fully believe they have the best interests of the encyclopedia at heart, and don't think we should be losing their contributions for a year over a trivial matter. So it's quite understandable that most of us feel outraged at the ban imposed.
On the other hand, if we step back a bit and try to assume good faith (hard as it may be) on the part of Trust & Safety (and given the people involved, I think we ought), I feel we ought to concluding that they were also acting in what they felt were the best interests of enwiki, but were mistaken. Now, if that sort of mistake was easy to rectify, then we wouldn't really have a big problem. Just appeal the T&S decision and be prepared to accept whatever the result of the appeal was. But that's not how things are currently set up.
Sadly, I don't think that we can any longer trust T&S to make ban decisions affecting just a single wiki without a mechanism to appeal that decision, particularly when the wiki in question has a well established, accountable body in place that is charged with making those decisions. So I propose that we focus our efforts on ensuring that the sort of local ban we have seen is appealable, and I suggest that ArbCom is the correct venue for that appeal. Don't be distracted by red herrings like "T&S need to be able to impose bans over confidential issues" – of course they do, but they also need to be accountable to the community they claim to serve, and that accountability can easily be implemented by making their ban decisions which affect only enwiki subject to review and appeal though the English ArbCom, which is directly accountable to the community that elected them. --RexxS (talk) 15:59, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Support making T&S enwiki bans appealable to ArbCom (alternative proposal 3)
- Support as proposer. --RexxS (talk) 15:59, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support with caveats - (1) only when the sanctioned user communicates to arbcom that they wish to appeal; (2) it is explicitly limited to actions that are not global in scope; (3) any appeal to ArbCom is explicitly final. Thryduulf (talk) 16:14, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. I can understand the concerns expressed below, but this proposal is for single-wiki bans only, and the kind of serious stuff that should not be appealable will be global. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support as a final action. However, the role of Wikimedia Foundation in Wikipedia matters needs to be clarified, and Thyrdulf's three caveats are good. This ban seems to be unfair and especially points to a lack of clarity in understanding the role the WF has or should have in Wikipedia affairs. This proposal would be a sensible unemotional response but also a wider dealing with the multiple issues that have arisen is needed both for Fram and for the future. Littleolive oil (talk) 17:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Much of the community outrage is because the nature of this ban just doesn't make sense. Miniapolis 01:28, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Second choice after abolishing them. If T&S needs to issue a ban, it should not be limited to a single project. EllenCT (talk) 01:01, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. No brainer. Arbcom is the official venue for last-resort or sensitive issues. No opaque, uncommunicative, and authoritarian regime should be over-riding standard, policy-based, trusted, equitable processes on Wikipedia. Softlavender (talk) 02:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support, per Boing! said Debedee. Abequinn14 (talk) 15:29, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Oppose making T&S enwiki bans appealable to ArbCom (alternative proposal 3)
- Oppose as pointless. The WMF has shown on many occasions that they have no interest in having to be accountable to local wikis, and any attempt to push for this position will just be stonewalled and/or ignored by the Foundation--and, fundamentally, as owners of the site, they don't have to be accountable to the users, in a legal sense, so the only leverage we would have would be threatening to fork enwiki to a new site, which is, frankly, a pretty empty threat, given the odds of any attempt to do so succeeding. rdfox 76 (talk) 16:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose again, I do not want ArbCom dealing with pedophiles. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Pedophiles would not get just a single-wikipedia ban and would not be covered by this. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Tony, couldn't any WMF block involving a pedophile simple be rubber-stamped by ArbCom? I see no reason for them to open a case, or even a full in camera review, for every appeal which might be brought to them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:13, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- The fear of pedophilia is frequently used as a wedge to deny other people their rights. But for every one pedophile we know about, there are probably a hundred we don't. Are we really making anybody safer by endorsing a Star Chamber procedure to deal with a small risk with a small percentage of pedophiles we know about, rather than having an honest community process? I should note that I had this position from the very beginning because I knew then that we would end up here out of it. No bureaucrat ever really gives a damn about the children. Wnt (talk) 13:36, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Some things may truly be legal or safety issues, that may not be safe to disclose to even NDA'd users. StudiesWorld (talk) 16:19, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Truly legal and safety issues would not get just a single-wikipedia ban and would not be covered by this. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose The thinking is right, but this is structured the wrong way around. Given the lack of cross-examination and appeal, office actions on en-WP should generally be reserved for misconduct so egregious as to require permanent sanction, such as the categories named above. If T&S receives a complaint and decides that it's problematic but doesn't rise to the level of a perma-ban, they can take it to ArbCom themselves to ask for whatever intermediate sanction they deem appropriate. Choess (talk) 16:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per TonyBallioni, StudiesWorld, etc. Arbcom is hardly capable of dealing with the sorts of issues that T&S has to deal with. Gamaliel (talk) 16:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ideal oppose ArbCom should not be involved in areas where the T&S should be (namely legal issues). But vise versa should most certainly also be the case, which the banning of Fram clearly demonstrates isn't. funplussmart (talk) 16:34, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose In most cases where the WMF steps in, there's a legal issue involved. ArbCom is a volunteer group, and as such, there is pretty significant liability protection for the individuals who serve. Unless ArbCom can also be sued the way the WMF can be-- with concomitant protections -- they can't be offered nor should they accept this kind of power. Montanabw(talk) 17:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Supporting this unfortunately does not make sense; or maybe it does symbolically, but I am not a fan of symbolics. Per m:Office actions#Primary office actions, these bans are not even appealable to the Foundation. "They are final and non-negotiable." [1]. So this proposal is not enforceable. It'd be better if something with possibility of happening is proposed in place of this. – Ammarpad (talk) 17:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- It would make more sense to make T&S actions appealable to the Foundation in general. Nobody is perfect and every action should be reviewable somewhere. I do understand though that if the Foundation steps in, it usually means - or ought to mean(!) - that local processes, including ArbCom, are not equipped to handle these kinds of problems. If the Foundation steps in without need to do so, someone higher up at the Foundation should be able to hear an appeal and overwrite the decision if needed. Regards SoWhy 18:05, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Montanabw and because this would likely have other unintended consequences. --Rschen7754 18:13, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per TonyBallioni, StudiesWorld and SoWhy SusunW (talk) 18:15, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per others. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose If there are legal and safety issues, we need to be careful. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:14, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per rdfox 76. Banedon (talk) 00:42, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I would support WMF bans having an appeal process to the foundation. Not to the arbcom given the numerous problems that would create re: privacy etc. While I have great respect for the work arbcom does, history makes it difficult to trust anything sent to them is not going to eventually leak. More importantly even if it does, I can understand both the legal issues, and the reasonable expectations of complainants etc which would mean they would not want arbcom being provided all the info needed making this a non starter. Nil Einne (talk) 03:35, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per rdfox76.--Vulphere 10:13, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Megalibrarygirl. I can imagine situations where I would want an appeal process implemented, but I can imagine situations in which I accept that the no appeal decision is appropriate. This proposal overreaches.S Philbrick(Talk) 18:27, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose As I say above, I do not want to see a situation where if you get enough buddies you can do as you like. Nor do I accept the "this user is too valuable to lose" argument.Slatersteven (talk) 09:41, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose This would just create a situation where people who have connections would be able to walk. As much as we need more transparency from the Wikimedia Foundation, their bans should not be reviewable to potentially biased people. No offense to Arb Com or anyone else, but we simply can't take any chances. The bans from the foundation should stay there, but we should have more transparency. NoahTalk 01:06, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose—Certainly not. ArbCom isn't charged with enforcing the Foundation's Terms of Use. In my view, a bit more centrally imposed discipline is needed in the WMF's 900 or so sites. On some of those sites, things are seriously amiss. Tony (talk) 09:02, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose The WMF and its various bloated teams have shown they have no interest in working with the communities that give them a job, dictators should not be appeased. Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:43, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think this is workable, per Montanabw and others. It'd be nice if it could work this way, but in practice it can't. --Deskana (talk) 11:06, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Fram's response on Commons
Thank you to everyone who commented at the various discussions or sent me an email about this. I'm as baffled about this as any of you, I'll share whatever information I have. i'll not repost full emails, as that is normally not allowed, but I'll try to give a fair assessment.
In April 2018, I received an office email from Kalliope (on behalf of the Trust and Safety team) with a "conduct warning" based on offwiki complaint by unnamed editors. "I have taken a look at several conflicts you’ve had over the years with other community members as well as Foundation staff, and I have noticed increasing levels of hostility, aggressive expression—some of which, to the point of incivility—and counterproductive escalations." The "as well as Foundation staff" is quite telling here...
In March 2019, I received a "reminder" about two edits I made in October 2018 (!); this one and this one. Even though acknowledging that my edits were correct, and that "We remain convinced that the activity on Laura’s articles listed above was not intended to intimidate or make her feel uncomfortable." (which is true, as I was, as is most often the case, new page patrolling when I tagged and corrected these), they issued a one-sided interaction ban (yep, the WMF issues interaction bans as well apparently, no need to bother enwiki with these any longer).
And then a few hours ago, they posted my one year ban, and helpfully gave the actual reason. Which is one edit, this one. That's it.
"This decision has come following extensive review of your conduct on that project and is an escalation to the Foundation’s past efforts to encourage course correction, including a conduct warning issued to you on April 2018 and a conduct warning reminder issued to you on March 2019. With those actions in mind, this ban has been triggered following your recent abusive communications on the project, as seen here [2].
This action is effective immediately and it is non-appealable."
Basically, after you recive a conduct warning from the Office based on undisclosed complaints, any pretext is then good enough to ban you (1 year now, I presume indef the next time I do anything they don't like). That I just happen to be one of the most vocal and efficient critics of the WMF is probably a pure coincidence (sorry to tout my own horn here, but in this case it needs to be said).
No evidence at all that the enwiki community tried and failed to address these issues. No indication that they noticed that my conduct has clearly improved in general over the last 12 months (I said improved, not been raised to saintly standards). No, an edit expressing widefelt frustration with an ArbCom post is sufficient to ban me.
I would like to state empathically, if someone would have doubts about it, that I have not socked (despite the rather nefarious sounding "Office actions are covering individuals and not just individual user accounts. Therefore, the measure covers more than one user account in this case."), I have not contacted or otherwise followed or bothered anyone offwiki, I have not even contributed to any of the Wikipedia criticism sites or fora (though it does become tempting now), ... Everything I did is visible on enwiki, no privacy issues are involved, and all necessary complaint, investigations, actions, could have been made onwiki.
Basically, this one-year ban is at the same time a means to silence one of their most vocal (and fact-based, consistently supporting WMF criticism with many examples of what goes wrong) critics, and a serious (and unwarranted) blame for the enwiki admin and arbcom community, who are apparently not able to upheld the TOU and to manage the site effectively.
This ban is not open to appeal, so I'll not bother with it: but I most clearly disagree with it and the very flimsy justification for it, and oppose this powergrab by the WMF which can't be bothered to deal with actual serious issues (like the rampant BLP violating vandalism at Wikidata, where e.g. Brett Kavanaugh has since 31 March 2019 the alias "rapist"[3] (A BLP violation whether you agree with the sentiment or not).
I have not the faintest clue why the WMF also couldn't post the justification for their block online, but communication has never been their strongest point.
Any non-violent action taken by enwiki individuals or groups against this WMF ban has my support. If you need more information, feel free to ask. I also allow the WMF to publish our full mail communication (I don't think it contains any personally identifying information about me or others), to give everyone the means to judge this impartially for themselves.
Again, thank you to everyone who expressed their support, especially those who would have reasons to dislike me based on previous interactions. I'm not a model admin or editor, but I believe I was steadily improving. But that's not for enwiki to decide apparently. Fram (talk) 07:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Copying Fram's statement from Commons here. --Pudeo (talk) 08:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Responses by Jimbo (Jimmy Wales)
- User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 235#Admin Fram locally banned by T&S for one year.
- User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 235#Semi-humorous aside, not to be taken too seriously.
- User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 235#Request for action regarding the ban of Fram
- User talk:Jimbo Wales#What was the outcome of the board meeting?
- "I was entirely unaware of this before just now. I'm reviewing the situation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)"[4]
- "[…] Both Doc James and I are on the case, trying to understand what happened here, and the ArbCom is discussing it as well. Drama will not be necessary, but more importantly, drama will not be helpful.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC)"[5]
- "I can assure you that my commitment to, and support of, appropriate principles and our established constitutional order is far far more important than any personal conflict that I may have ever had with anyone. I'm not taking any position on this yet, because the reasonable thing to do is to listen to all sides calmly and come to an understanding of the issues.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:24, 11 June 2019 (UTC)"[6]
- "I'd like to remind everyone that it is my long established view that all bans are appealable to me. I seldom intervene, even if I have some minor disagreement with a ban, because no major constitutional issues or errors are at stake. It is too early to know what is going on in this particular case, but please if anyone is planning to "fall on their sword" for principle, let it be me. But, I really don't think that will be necessary here. The WMF staff are diligent, thoughtful, and hard working. If an error has been made, I'm sure they will revert and work out procedures to make sure it didn't happen again. If the ban was justified, I'm sure they will find a way to make it clear to - at a minimum, if privacy issues play a role, to me, to the board, and to the Arbitration Committee. Therefore, dramatic action would not be helpful at the present time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)"[7]
- "I think you and I can both forecast that a wheel war will not serve as a useful introduction to a calm and reasonable discussion. Give it a little time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)"[8]
- "I'd like to remind you that it is not even 9am in California. I think it quite clear that unblocking before they've had a chance to even get into the office will simply serve to escalate matters. I suspect that Fram himself would agree that there is no emergency. Rather than cloud the waters and make it even harder (emotionally) for a backdown (if such is warranted - we don't know yet!), it will be best to take the high road and wait until a more appropriate time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC)"[9]
- "Yes, I'm firmly recommending that we all relax a notch or two. It's not even 9am in California. There is no emergency here. I have raised the issue with the WMF, and so has Doc James. I am also talking to ArbCom. It is really important that we not take actions to escalate conflict - nor are such actions necessary. If there comes a need for a time for the community to firmly disagree with the WMF and take action, then that time is only after a proper reflection on the full situation, with everyone having a chance to weigh in.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)"[10]
- "I continue to advise calm and slow movement. Further wheel warring will not be productive and will only tend to escalate matters further. I am recommending the same to WMF, as is Doc James. We are discussing the situation with them in the hopes of finding the right way forward.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:10, 12 June 2019 (UTC)"[11]
- "Doc James and I have been pursuing this with diligence. I continue to recommend the following to everyone here:
- Don't wheel war - it isn't going to be helpful in achieving the goals you want, and could actually make it harder
- Do express your opinions clearly and firmly and factually, with kindness - it's the best way to get your point across
- Remember that there is no emergency here - the phrase "important but not urgent" fits very well - getting this right and fixing this situation is incredibly important, but it doesn't have to happen in 4 hours (and it also, of course, shouldn't take months)
- I applaud those who have kept separate in their minds and words the separate issues here. The issue of Fram's behavior and whether desysopping and/or some form of block are appropriate is separate from the "constitutional issue" of process and procedure. Conflating the two would, I fear, only serve to raise emotions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:16, 12 June 2019 (UTC)"[12]
- "To be clear, to the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any direct requests by board members to line workers through middle management here. Certainly, James and I are speaking to the board and CEO, not attempting to intervene at that level at all. The board should only operate at the level of broad principles and through the top management, not detailed management of specific issues.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:55, 13 June 2019 (UTC)"[13]
- "[…] This is not about individual people, this is a question about our constitutional order. This is not about this specific situation, but a much more important and broader question about project governance.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:58, 14 June 2019 (UTC)"[14]
- "[…] If we characterize this as a clash between ArbCom and the WMF, we are factually in error. It's not as easy as that.
- And of course, if I were to take a dramatic action, some would cheer, and some would scream. And if I go slow and deliberate, some will not like that, either. But it is my way, the only way that I know, and when I stick to slow and thoughtful deliberation I have learned in my life that the outcome is better than if I do something sudden.
- I suppose if I had to decide "whether the community or the foundation is my true heir" I'd go with community. But I actually don't think in that way. My true heir is Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. That's what I think we all care the most about, or anyway it is what we should all care the most about. One of the reasons that Wikipedia has succeeded is that we don't take anything as absolutely permanent. WP:IAR and WP:5P5 spring to mind.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:45, 14 June 2019 (UTC)"[15]
- "[…] I wasn't trying to contrast or compare the necessity/valuation of the WMF with the community at all. I agree with you that they aren't easily separable, and I also believe that when we fall into a too hasty 'WMF vs community' narrative - either in the community, or in the WMF, we are probably making it harder to see how to optimize and resolve problems.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 14 June 2019 (UTC)"[16]
Further comment from the Foundation
[Forthcoming shortly] WMFOffice (talk) 18:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Dear members of the English Wikipedia community,
Over the last few days we have received many requests to review the recent issues that have surfaced due to the office action taken against Fram. We are reviewing such feedback with care and aim to reply in helping to clarify the situation. We expect to reply at least one more time as we continue to review the feedback. We hope the following helps to address several points raised so far:
The Foundation is strongly supportive of communities making their own decisions within the framework of the Terms of Use, as outlined in section 10. There have been many questions about why the Foundation's Trust & Safety team handled this case rather than passing it to the local Arbcom to handle. This happened for two main reasons.
- First, our privacy provisions do not always allow us to "pass back" personal information we receive to the community; this means there are cases where we cannot pass on to Arbcom things like the names of complaining parties or the content of private evidence that might support a concern. As a result, the best we could have given Arbcom in this case would have been a distillation of the case, severely limiting their ability to handle it.
- Secondly, we believe it would have been improper to ask the Arbcom to adjudicate a case in which it was one primary target of the person in question, as this could put volunteers into a very difficult position and create the appearance of a conflict of interest regardless of the actual handling of the case.
For these two reasons this case was handled differently than Trust and Safety would usually have handled cases falling under section 4. of the Terms of Use.
In terms of us providing direct justification for this ban to the community, as both several community members and we have already mentioned, we do not release details about Trust & Safety investigations due to privacy concerns. What do we mean by that? We mean that when someone reports a situation to us, or someone is involved in a case we investigate, we are obligated to keep their identity and any personally-identifying evidence private. That includes not only literally not publishing their name, but often not sharing diffs (which might show things like "who the named party was targeting" or "what dispute this investigation arose from") or even general details (in many cases, even naming the specific infraction will allow interested sleuths to deduce who was involved). What we can say in this case is that the issues reported to us fell under section 4 of the terms of use, as noted above, specifically under the first provision entitled “harassing and abusing others.”
Many of you have asked questions about why a one-year local ban was placed in this case, as opposed to the more-common indefinite global ban. The Trust & Safety team updated the policies to allow these less-stringent sanction options for use in cases where there was reason to think time might change behavior, or where disruption is limited to a single project. The intention of these new options is to be able to act in a way that is more sensitive to an individual’s circumstances and not have to give out indefinite global bans for problems that are limited in time or project-scope. Based on the evidence we received, this is such a case and we are hopeful that if Fram wishes to resume editing in a year, they will be able to do so effectively and in line with the terms of use. Prior to this policy update, the only sanction option available in a case like this would have been an indefinite global ban.
We know this action came as a surprise to some within the community, and we understand that many of you have deep concerns about the situation. We can only assure you that Trust & Safety Office Actions are not taken lightly, nor are they taken without sign-off by multiple levels of staff who read the case’s documentation and evidence from different angles. We take these actions only in situations where we believe no other option is available that will preserve the health and/or safety of the community. We will continue to monitor your feedback and provide at least one more reply regarding this matter. Best regards, WMFOffice (talk) 19:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
Further clarification
To follow up on the earlier statement from today, we can provide additional clarifications:
The scope of Trust and Safety investigations: The Foundation's office action investigations generally review the conduct of the user as a whole. Therefore, they usually involve conduct on the projects over an extended period of time. In the case of established editors, the time window reviewed often extends beyond any individual complaints received and can include conduct spanning several years. The scope is one of the main reasons why such investigations usually take at least four weeks. Such investigations evaluate the conduct of a user and by default not the substance of their views.
Conduct warnings: Conduct warnings are a rare office action. They are normally issued when a situation is observed to be problematic, and is meant to be a preventative measure of further escalation. It is considered as a step geared towards de-escalation of the situation, when there is believed to have sufficient margin for it. It informs the recipient that behavior they may consider acceptable is in fact not, grants them the opportunity to reflect on it, and encourages them to take corrective measures towards mitigating and eventually eliminating it. However, should these warnings be ignored and the problematic behavior continues, further actions (such as bans) may be deemed necessary and their text usually references the possibility.
Style and substance: Critique is an inherently important part of an encyclopedic community. Neither the Foundation nor community institutions, like ArbCom, are above criticism. Such criticism naturally can be direct and hard on the facts, but in a community it should also remain strictly respectful in tone towards others.
Enforcement: The Wikimedia Foundation never seeks to force administrators or other community members to enforce the Terms of Use (just like an admin is rarely 'obligated' to block a vandal), but we do greatly appreciate the work of administrators who choose to do so. Admins who do take such actions should not be subjected to threats of removal of their admin rights, when their actions are based on a good faith belief that they are upholding the Terms of Use (and any action in support of enforcing a Foundation office action or a community global ban is, by definition, upholding the Terms of Use). If community believes that their good faith efforts are misguided, the issue may need discussion, if necessary, a different approach. We are always happy to join in such conversations unrelated to individual cases. Best regards, WMFOffice (talk) 00:33, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Unban Fram
So it's now clear that while we had overwhelming consensus to unblock Fram, that is actually meaningless to the wikilawyers who would tell us that since he's still banned yet unblocked, any edit he makes anywhere on en.wiki could end up lengthening his ban. Which of course is horseshit. So we need to try once more. In the face of precisely zero evidence, I propose that Fram is unbanned from English Wikipedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - Trusted community members are still investigating the matter. Procedurally, this is impossible. StudiesWorld (talk) 20:47, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- "Procedurally, this is impossible" anyone that says that should be summarily ignored. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:48, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, explain this to me. You believe that it is currently possible under local policy to overturn an office action? StudiesWorld (talk) 20:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Trusted community members are still investigating the matter. if that means the same "trusted group" who banned Fram in the fist place, plus Jimbo (please!), then the point is moot. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes. Of course. Fram can be re-sysopped locally by 'crats and his ban (which is an abstract concept now he has been unblocked) can be ignored. What kind of super powers do you think WMF hold??! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:52, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Exactly. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:51, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- The keys to the site? I mean it only exists at the whims of the Foundation. Q T C 15:56, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, explain this to me. You believe that it is currently possible under local policy to overturn an office action? StudiesWorld (talk) 20:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- "Procedurally, this is impossible" anyone that says that should be summarily ignored. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:48, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Strong support The community needs to be able to make their own decisions without needing intervention from the Foundation. The ban of Fram is completely uncalled for and the inadequate response from the Office shows its complete lack of transparency, especially in this situation. I don't care that this is "procedually impossible" if its because the bureaucratic Foundation makes it that way. funplussmart (talk) 20:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support per funplussmart. CoolSkittle (talk) 20:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support in the absence of further information. If this is about civility, ban everyone else on the project, as the border of civility and rudeness is nebulous. If this is a metasticisation of his dispute with the WiR, check the WiR's history here on en.wp. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 20:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support WMF have acted inappropriately here, maybe on behalf of an inside relationship. This action should be seen as wholly illegitimate. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:59, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Mu. Office bans cannot be undone by the community. ~ Rob13Talk 21:00, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Of course they can. If the community deems the Office to have over-reached, then it will be fixed. Jeez, no-one "owns" the community, without us, you're nothing. Get used to thinking about how we feel about shitty decision-making. Arbcom was bad enough, now we have this Office bollocks. Gervais would be proud of us. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. The "procedural impossibility" is for WMF to ban editors solely for their on-wiki conduct, with narrow exceptions such as child protection or threats. (If Fram's account of events leading to the ban were inaccurate, WMF has now had the opportunity with its second statement to dispute it, and did not do so, so at this point we will have to presume that Fram's account is accurate). "Fram was mean to me" is a matter for the English Wikipedia community to handle, either directly or through the Arbitration Committee it elects. It is not a matter in which the WMF can intervene because it does not like the community's decision, including a decision to refrain from action. If Fram has behaved in a way deserving of a site ban, that ban should be imposed by the community or ArbCom only. (And when there are not legal considerations, yes, the community absolutely can overturn Office actions. If we've not yet clearly established that we have that authority, now's as good a time as any.) Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:03, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 11) In the abstract, I support unbanning and reopping, but that assumes the RFC is binding (and it’s unclear if it is at this moment). —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 21:06, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Mu (I like that as a response, thanks Rob). While we're here, let's vote to break the UK's parliamentary Brexit deadlock, to reconcile the Israelis and the Palestinians, and to cure the world of all known diseases too. Well, we have as much power to do those as reverse an Office ban, so why not? I think the ban is wrong, and I think it represents a power grab and a chilling shift in the governance structure of en.wiki. I think the ban should be reversed, but we can't do it, and voting on it here is just pissing in the wind. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support even if we can't make it stick, we can at least tell the WMF exactly what we think. Lepricavark (talk) 21:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The community consensus for an unblock already includes consensus that Fram be allowed to continue editing, otherwise it would be pointless. I doubt people were thinking, "restore Fram's technical ability to edit, but if he actually uses it then the ability should be removed again." Even if the WMF ban technically still exists, at minimum the community expects that it will not be enforced. (But whether the WMF enforces it anyways is a separate issue, of course.) Sunrise (talk) 21:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Well yes. If the office wishes to make a case to arbcom they are free to do so.©Geni (talk) 21:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- My understanding is that the community does not have the authority to override an office action, so this is not possible. The unblock, though understandable, was therefore premature. This will need to be looked at through proper channels, via the board members accountable to the community. They are in a position to question WMF staff about the reasons for these actions and explain them to the community. And, if need be, they can help take Foundation-level decisions about any necessary consequences from this episode, including personnel decisions and an office-level unban. Process should be followed, even if it is annoying. Sandstein 21:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support in the absence of a non-boilerplate response by the WMF. For this nonstandard of an action to be taken against such a well-established editor, with little-to-no comprehensive explanation (thus leaving us all to speculate) is ridiculous. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 21:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose In agreement with Sandstein. In the face of precisely zero evidence, I propose that the Brexit deadlock be considered null and void. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:40, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7, is not it a bit rich for you, of all folks, to talk about evidence in these type of cases? ∯WBGconverse 12:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose this is not an anarchist site. Sir Joseph (talk) 21:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Sir Joseph: Just because people oppose a decision a leader(s) make, doesn't automatically make them anarchists. The people want good leadership, not incompetent leadership. X-Editor (talk) 04:26, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose when it comes to sensitive personal data we should be very careful. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Mu. BU Rob13 and Boing! said Zebedee are in the right here. The community cannot do this, and its time would be better spent on a different approach. Mz7 (talk) 22:19, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, the community can do whatever it gets consensus to do. Applying primitive constraints is stupid and wasteful. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Mu. It is not within the remit of the local community so discussing this is meaningless (this is the perfect way to describe my response; thanks!).--Jorm (talk) 22:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well it just think a bit harder then. What would you vote if you could get your desired outcome? We, as a community, can do anything we like here. Or perhaps you'd prefer to just go along with the sheep? Yes sir. No sir. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:29, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure you'd be happy to know my desired outcome.--Jorm (talk) 22:31, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't really care about your opinion. What I do care about it is the ability for us as a community to exercise our consensus in the way that Jimbo originally conceived. Twenty years later we're not seeing that, too many owners. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:35, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- You only care about the opinions of those who agree with you. Got it.--Jorm (talk) 22:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- What a strange thing to say. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- You only care about the opinions of those who agree with you. Got it.--Jorm (talk) 22:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't really care about your opinion. What I do care about it is the ability for us as a community to exercise our consensus in the way that Jimbo originally conceived. Twenty years later we're not seeing that, too many owners. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:35, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure you'd be happy to know my desired outcome.--Jorm (talk) 22:31, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well it just think a bit harder then. What would you vote if you could get your desired outcome? We, as a community, can do anything we like here. Or perhaps you'd prefer to just go along with the sheep? Yes sir. No sir. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:29, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support i.e., the community resolves Fram in its view is still welcome to edit and administer the en.wp project. This means that by community consensus, Wikipedia admins should not intervene to enforce the ban. Whether the WMF gives a fig about that, or enforces the ban itself, are separate matters that don't concern us here. The community should also not recognize Fram's IBAN with the anonymous WiR, but it can postpone disputing that issue (and I'd advise Fram to do the same). I'd be satisfied about the IBAN if WMF turns ownership of it over to Arbcom (Arbcom doesn't have a COI regarding it) and Arbcom lets it stay in force while they review it and ultimately decides whether to lift it. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 22:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment. Here are some axioms: (a) we do not have the power, under US law, to override the office unless we fork and leave their servers, (b) there is allegedly an ongoing attempt by Jimbo Wales and Doc James to do some mediation, which has not run its course yet, and (c) we still don't know for certain whether there is more to this than Fram's statement would imply. Give those axioms I therefore propose that we sit tight for a while and wait and see. I agree with the spirit of Floq's unblock, but just as the WMF need to de escalate and build bridges, so also do we. — Amakuru (talk) 22:37, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see it as overriding the office to say there is no community ban in force, the community wants Fram to be editing, and the community refuses to act on the WMF's behalf with regard to enforcing the ban. WMF owns this ban and if it is enforced at all, WMF itself must do the enforcement. We won't do this dirty work. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 22:43, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Contrary to the statement above, there is nothing whatsoever in US law that forbids the user of a site from taking actions which the owner of the site disagrees with. The owner can, of course, undo the action and ban or block the user, since they have the technical and legal power to do this -- but that is entirely irrelevant in this case, which hinges not on what the WMF can do, but on what actions it is willing to do in the face of a community revolt. They can choose to retaliate, and do, most probably, extreme damage to the website, destroying its ethos and undermining its future improvement, or they can look the other way and negotiate. I believe they would do the latter, because as inappropriate and (predictably) stupid as this action was, I do not think that they are, collectively, unintelligent people. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as premature. As Wikimedia staff has stated, they are unable to release the evidence that supported their action. Without having seen the evidence (or even a summary of that evidence), it is premature for the community to demand that the action be immediately overturned. Let the oversight and investigatory processes proceed, and then an informed decision can be made. Cbl62 (talk) 22:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment what time is it in California? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- 4 PM. 2001:4898:80E8:2:A5F:2E62:10E4:D7D1 (talk) 22:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not our call. The WMF has the authority to ban anyone from their site who they deem to have violated the ToS. Any community consensus to overturn such a ban is completely meaningless. AdA&D 22:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Moreover, if the WMF found that Fram has harassed and abused others, he should be held to account like any other user. I understand the frustration about the lack of transparency, but that's the unfortunate reality of harassment complaints lodged to WMF itself; they're confidential. And let's be real, people are only kicking up such a fuss because he's a power user. If this was some random editor you guys wouldn't give a shit. AdA&D 23:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nope, without a community, the WMF is purposeless. Think about it. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:51, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- TRM, I like you but you are not cynical enough. Look at some of Wnt's posts. She or he is more astute about this. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 23:13, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Even without a conclusion, we're learning a lot about our fellow editors, aren't we? Black Kite (talk) 23:05, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Arbcom is elected and accountable to the English Wikipedia Community. "WMFOffice" and whoever is behind it is not. The fact that there is no transparency behind who did this is another problem. I may not know who "BURob 13" is but enough editors of this community trusted them with the responsibility of being an Arb which is how this whole project works. Enough of us work together to build this place. One foreign, unaccountable person should not and cannot perform actions like this when we have local, effective governance in place. Fram is a pitbull when he finds an issues for better and worse. I've thought multiple times they need to back off but its always been because they want to make the Wiki better. I've been an on and off editor for 14 years. First as an IP, then as a user, back to an IP, and back to a sporadic user. Actions like this kills communities. Remember, this community is your golden goose. No community, no encyclopedia, no donations. spryde | talk 23:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support unban. This section, as I understand it, is for gauging the community's views on the Office action banning Fram. The WMF may or may not take our views into consideration as they review this situation, but for God's sake don't pre-emptively say your voice doesn't matter by muing at us. Support the unban or oppose it, but don't sit in the cow pasture "mu"ing because you think you won't be listened to, because that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The WMF may ignore a strong consensus of editors, but they most definitely will ignore people who are fearful of taking one position or another, and they will be right to do so. 28bytes (talk) 23:40, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Of course. The block was only intended to enforce the ban, unblocking him only undoes the technical mechanism which kept him from editing. To be effectively undone, Fram needs to have the ability to edit freely as well. If undoing an OFFICE action is forbidden, well, then, Floq already crossed that threshhold (thank you, Floq), on his own, in recognition of community consensus. If community consensus is also to unban Fram as well (as it should be), then some other admin should take that action. Finally, if community consensus is that Fram's desysopping was out of process, and the community supporst his being re-sysopped in the interim, some brave bureaucrat should do that. I say this with the full recognition that those taking these actions could easily find themselves the target of OFFICE actions as well, but if each action is properly well-supported by the community, then I don't believe that the WMF would be foolhardy enough to take those steps. What they have now is a tightly-focused result, what they need to watch out for is provoking a widespread revolution. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- I can't sit behind my completely unprivileged IP address and encourage people with advanced permissions to wheel war with the WMF (I described my suggestion of admins passively going on strike as "going bonkers" but it turns out to be one of the mildest actions discussed). But I would say that the "unban" we're discussing means the community doesn't object to such actions, won't sanction anyone who does them (even if the WMF might do so), and might sanction those who try to undo the actions. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 00:06, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support per 28bytes, who hits the nail on the head. I say this, however, recognizing that there might be factors that I don't know because they haven't been made public. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:47, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support per 28bytes. This is about sending a strong message to the WMF that local governance should not be sidestepped without a good reason. This discussion may not result in any concrete implementation (Fram is unblocked and can technically edit, the community won't sanction him if he does, so the ball is in WMF's court regardless of the outcome here), but we need to present a unified front to make it harder and harder for them to defend their actions (either that or provide an actual transparent explanation of what Fram did, if he did indeed do something ban-worthy). As shown in the superprotect fiasco, the WMF will cave under sufficient pressure. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:17, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Regardless as to whether the community is capable of doing this, I support this proposal. Unless Fram's post-ban statement on commons is incorrect, then there is no confidential information in this ban, meaning nothing stops the community from coming to its own judgement. Since the community does not ban users for one year on a first offence, the one-year ban is clearly excessive and should be undone. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Logging in after not being here for ages just to support this, with a caveat: all evidence so far presented claims that Fram’s ban was solely for on-wiki behavior. Assuming that’s the case, that behavior hasn’t always been optimal but it certainly isn’t outside the purview of the community’s already in place mechanisms to deal with conflicts. That the diffs provided to Fram, including the backdoor IBan, all involved conflicts with people with direct access to the Office stinks to high heaven. Fram’s conflicts with the WMF are no secret and, much more often than not, he was correct about the facts, even if overzealous on the execution. Assuming the office ban is based solely on on-wiki behavior, the idea that anonymous complaints are “private” is asinine and antithetical to every conflict resolution process setup by the community. This same type of banning has happened across multiple language wikis since late 2018, baffling those communities as well. If that’s what the WMF wants, then so be it, but then drop the charade. Then, you know, actually pay community moderators to enforce your insular whims, if that’s their intention, because the WMF clearly didn’t have confidence that the community would sanction Fram for attacking their own. Capeo (talk) 00:55, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - For all I know, the sanction may be warranted (I personally think it was excessive, but that's beside the point). However, this is a local matter that should have been referred to Arbcom. I do not appreciate the WMF meddling in issues that are for the local communities to solve. –FlyingAce✈hello 01:20, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support At this point, it has become clear that the WMF doesn't care about being answerable to anyone but themselves, and providing a strong community consensus against this ban is the only way that we stand a chance of getting this overturned by the Board, by giving Jimbo and the Community Representatives something to point at and say how blatantly out-of-touch this action was. rdfox 76 (talk) 03:05, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support I'm not just going sit back and let the WMF get away with banning a guy just because he made a somewhat rude comment against ARBCOM and get banned for a whopping one year as a result. The WMF needs to be more transparent and actually get consensus for this type of ban. X-Editor (talk) 04:22, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Benjamin (talk) 04:26, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Strong support per nom. Oshawott 12 ==()== Talk to me! 04:27, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. The ban may or may not be warranted, but it should not be WMF's decision to make. Their flimsy rationale for bypassing arbcom applies equally to WMF itself, of which Fram has been a long-time vocal critic. If Fram does need to be banned, and T&S reviewed Fram's entire history of 187k+ edits as claimed (or even a substantial portion thereof), then they should have no difficulty putting together a case for the community's established processes to consider, in private if necessary. T. Canens (talk) 04:39, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - No muing, the community should not enforce this ban. The ban itself is conexcept, but enforcement of it is not. Tazerdadog (talk) 05:10, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support per Tazeradog and all above. ∯WBGconverse 06:42, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - reversal needed for this opaque, seemingly harsh, and confounding situation (if he did something so bad, would it be a one-year ban? starship.paint (talk) 07:17, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - It has become clear that this ban was arbitrary and capricious. Whether our reversion of this ban is real or symbolic, it is important. ~Swarm~ {sting} 08:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Mu? - Support in principle, but there's no point in this vote because the community can't overturn office bans. ST47 (talk) 10:17, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. Unless and until the investigation(s) by the board, Jimbo and Doc James demonstrate evidence that the ban is actually incorrect not just unpopular. Thryduulf (talk) 11:07, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support as there is no evidence to support a ban, and the ban itself appears to be an attempt to undermine community resolution in a disruptive manner. DuncanHill (talk) 11:09, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support - Ofcourse WMF blocks generally cannot be overturned blah blah blah - Block was ridiculous and as such I support unblocking, –Davey2010Talk 12:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support — This is how to walk back this gravely ill-considered office action. Of course, it would mean tacitly admitting error, so I don't have much hope that the geniuses who decided to do this will reconsider without a big push from their boss and/or nominal overseers. Carrite (talk) 12:13, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. We can only judge the situation based on the evidence presented to the community, and on the basis of the evidence, the ban is at the very least an unwise overreach. If we assume the worst of the imposers, then it could be corrupt and disruptive. DrKay (talk) 16:37, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose if this is a legal or safety issue, we don't have the "right" to view all of the lurid details in order to get this unblock. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:23, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Fram has already been unblocked (twice). This is about the ban. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. If there is a concrete legal concern behind the ban, that needs to be explicitly stated by WMF legal, which certainly could be done without revealing personal information or all of the background. If this is not a legal issue, this should have been addressed by Arbcom rather than the WMF; Arbcom is well equipped to handle sensitive and private information carefully and rationally.Dialectric (talk) 20:56, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose acting without information is very dangerous. Wait for Jimbo, Doc James, etc, to conclude their investigation. Banedon (talk) 00:49, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as others have said, not without further information. There is no rush, especially for an action which has no clear effect. Nil Einne (talk) 02:40, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Can we get a formal closure here? Tazerdadog (talk) 06:24, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- You mean make the obvious close here, one that the majority of participants oppose (that the Wikipedia community did not ban Fram and as such cannot unban him)? No, I dont think anybody wants to do that. nableezy - 07:00, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- We clearly disagree on the nature of the obvious close. To me, the obvious close would be something along the lines of "The community rejects the ban on Fram and will not enforce it." This is why we have uninvolved experienced editors close discussions, however. Tazerdadog (talk) 08:00, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- That's obviously incorrect, because the discussion isn't about enforcing the ban (which is only mentioned by a small number of people). And, as an aside, it's as meaningless as "The community rejects the law of gravity and will not enforce it". I think the most that could be said would be something like "There is a consensus opposing the WMF ban of Fram." Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:36, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- You know what enforcement of the ban entails? A global lock. Then what, who's going to overturn that one for you? People are acting like we have some sort of trump card here, but the WMF is playing a hand of all spades. This thread is like a WikiProject deciding they can overturn an ArbCom ban. The only way this gets overturned is if the WMF overturn it, and efforts are better directed towards that end rather than this. The only people that can change this are the ones that can change T&S, or force them to change, and guess what, that aint us. nableezy - 16:45, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wait The world isn't coming to an end, I'm definitely not on the WMF's side, no one should be but it's best to give it time and know where it's going. --qedk (t 桜 c) 06:30, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose The WMF office has every right to ban Fram, even if it is based on evidence that they won't show us. Personally, it doesn't come as a shock to me that a person with such aggressive and hostile behaviour has been banned for harassment. Nevertheless, they were great as an editor and content writer and will be missed. SD0001 (talk) 06:45, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Neutral We, as a community, cannot unban Fram, since we do not enforce the terms of use, WMF does. Admins can unblock Fram, but admins can't unban Fram, and based on what I read, Fram arguably violated the terms of use. I'm simply hoping the WMF makes the correct call going forward here. SportingFlyer T·C 08:16, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support unban. The hard way that the WMF has handled this is not the way forward. If they come with a proper statement, or, better, they handle this to ArbCom (and they come with a proper statement). This can only move forward if members of the community know what not to do and to what level. And there is no way I will support unappealable bans for anything else than illegal activities (child pornography and similar). As WMF has NOT issued a statement along the lines of 'Fram performed illegal actions within applicable jurisdictions', then this ban/block is a) too heavy for a first ban/block and b) should be fully appealable. If the actions of Fram did warrant a clear warning, then consider this a final warning to him with 'time served'. And yes, the community has the full right to overturn WMF (as we do with overriding their unwanted extensions) if they do not communicate ánd discuss with the communities the boundaries of certain restrictions they apply. --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:17, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support and echo 28bytes. In fact I will be a bit more stronger and say if you are sitting on the fence here you are actively helping the WMF to impose its totalitarian practices. They should be sent a clear rejection even if we ultimately cannot functionally lift the ban, or they decide to lift it themselves. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:28, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support, at the very least to make it clear that he is not banned by the community. We have waited long enough now. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:37, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. In the absence of evidence (public or submitted to ArbCom) or an evidentiary hearing, this is the only logical position to take, unless we really are living in a totalitarian regime where a small unelected body can give itself the power to ban anyone without appeal or plausible explanation. Softlavender (talk) 08:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose—I'd like to see more WMF scrutiny—not less—of what's going on on its sites, globally. They have to deal with s**t people here don't know about. And legal responsibility stops with them, not en.WP editors or ArbCom. Tony (talk) 09:06, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Tony1, that is on the assumption that there is actually something that is a legal problem, right? --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:59, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Tony1 If 1,600 admins have a hard time making perfect judgments over disputes on Enwiki, how will a small unit culled from the 300 employees at WMF prove more efficient, under a new set of civility protocols that are even more stringent? You can only do that if (a) the work of judgment is delegated to mindless software or/and (b) by massively expanding your miniscule WMF workforce (a great temptation for bureaucracies). The prospect has nightmarish implications you appear to miss. Nishidani (talk) 10:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- A bit of Devil's advocacy, but T&S wouldn't need to make perfect judgments at all. If they impose their own rules and their own judgment, which can not be appealed and do not need community approval, they don't need to satisfy anyone but themselves of the validity of their actions. Admins need to satisfy community consensus (which in a lot of cases is simply impossible) while T&S only need to satisfy T&S - and in some ways that makes their job far easier than admins doing the same thing, not harder. Power held by a small group with absolute authority is far easier to wield than power held loosely by a large group with community consensus authority. (I'm not saying anything about whether it's right or wrong, I'm just responding to that specific practical point.) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:27, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nishidani No, it's not a case of having "a hard time making perfect judgments" at all. Everyone makes mistakes, and no one is perfect: look at me. The tip of the iceberg is admins' systemic arrogance, acceptance of admin CoI, herd-like support of each other at public forums, public bullying and shaming of editors at ANI, and their breaking of policies without consequence. I don't trust that system now, and I've been here since 2005; it's why I rarely interact with the community nowadays. Who could be surprised that this toxicity would evolve in a job-for-life system where the judges of admin behaviour are themselves admins? Even crats are counted out of that system. Adopting de.WP's sensible reform that modified jobs-for-life (years ago) would be a start. Beetstra We don't know whether it's a legal problem in this case; but knowledge of the world tells me loudly that the internet is fast becoming a legal quagmire. You can't blame the WMF for protecting the movement where it feels it needs to. Boing! said Zebedee "Admins need to satisfy community consensus (which in a lot of cases is simply impossible)"—I rest my case. Tony (talk) 10:51, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Tony1, as far as has been made clear to Fram, and according to their reports on
metacommons, it is not. And that is in line with all the information (</sarcasm>) that has been received from WMF. One line along ‘we had legal reasons to block Fram’ would have totally quenched this discussion. —Dirk Beetstra T C 11:11, 16 June 2019 (UTC)- Tony1,Well, I can understand your frustration with arbs - I have a block record to prove it! (Sometimes I think they are within their right: sometimes they are wrong - but I have never appealed even my permaban. I accept the decision because the process of indictment, discussion, and evaluation, together with the evidence, is in the public domain and my purview. It's democratic) The flaw is, in my view, that your experience tells you an open forum, democratic in form, has corrupt elements and therefore you can compensate for its failings by empowering an anonymous body to do the same thing, one that is without recall, using secret evidence no one, not even the accused, can evaluate or respond to. That is, surely, trying to fix a known problem, which has created an atmosphere of distrust, by a blind act of trust that exercises even more problematical procedures that are utterly opaque, and in which only the plaintiff, and the secret adjudicating body, will have any knowledge of - a recipe for disaster. Nishidani (talk) 12:11, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Tony1, as far as has been made clear to Fram, and according to their reports on
- Nishidani No, it's not a case of having "a hard time making perfect judgments" at all. Everyone makes mistakes, and no one is perfect: look at me. The tip of the iceberg is admins' systemic arrogance, acceptance of admin CoI, herd-like support of each other at public forums, public bullying and shaming of editors at ANI, and their breaking of policies without consequence. I don't trust that system now, and I've been here since 2005; it's why I rarely interact with the community nowadays. Who could be surprised that this toxicity would evolve in a job-for-life system where the judges of admin behaviour are themselves admins? Even crats are counted out of that system. Adopting de.WP's sensible reform that modified jobs-for-life (years ago) would be a start. Beetstra We don't know whether it's a legal problem in this case; but knowledge of the world tells me loudly that the internet is fast becoming a legal quagmire. You can't blame the WMF for protecting the movement where it feels it needs to. Boing! said Zebedee "Admins need to satisfy community consensus (which in a lot of cases is simply impossible)"—I rest my case. Tony (talk) 10:51, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- A bit of Devil's advocacy, but T&S wouldn't need to make perfect judgments at all. If they impose their own rules and their own judgment, which can not be appealed and do not need community approval, they don't need to satisfy anyone but themselves of the validity of their actions. Admins need to satisfy community consensus (which in a lot of cases is simply impossible) while T&S only need to satisfy T&S - and in some ways that makes their job far easier than admins doing the same thing, not harder. Power held by a small group with absolute authority is far easier to wield than power held loosely by a large group with community consensus authority. (I'm not saying anything about whether it's right or wrong, I'm just responding to that specific practical point.) Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:27, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- 'public bullying and shaming of editors at ANI.' I've never seen that. I take harassment and bullying seriously, but where I grew up things like having the jagged edge of a broken bottle held at your throat to stop you running to intervene when your brother, without provocation, gets beaten to a pulp by a practiced drunken thug, defined bullying. Sharp words, an insult here or there quite another - the latter occurs every day in any normal family and not rarely among friends. That, to me, is not threatening. Apparently, for a lot of people it is. Nishidani (talk) 12:26, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nishidani, I certainly don't always agree with you, but here, you've hit it dead on. What happened to Fram could, if anything, quite properly in itself be described as bullying, especially if he is accurately describing the communications he received. Also, if anyone thinks people are harsh on Wikipedia, they ought to have been on Usenet. This place, even this discussion, is a quiet conversation over tea compared to that. Seraphimblade Talk to me 12:47, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Tony1 If 1,600 admins have a hard time making perfect judgments over disputes on Enwiki, how will a small unit culled from the 300 employees at WMF prove more efficient, under a new set of civility protocols that are even more stringent? You can only do that if (a) the work of judgment is delegated to mindless software or/and (b) by massively expanding your miniscule WMF workforce (a great temptation for bureaucracies). The prospect has nightmarish implications you appear to miss. Nishidani (talk) 10:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Tony1, that is on the assumption that there is actually something that is a legal problem, right? --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:59, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support.Nishidani (talk) 10:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. I stand with the community and it's ability to govern itself. -- Ϫ 10:24, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support, it's a manifestation of the wrong role th e service organisation WMF is usurping towards it's superior, the communities. The WMF is only there to support the real bosses, the communities. It must never even think about pretending to be some kind of boss of the Wikiverse, it's not. And I think it is really a perversion that one of the main villains of the Superputsch-disaster is now head of Trust & Safety. Grüße vom Sänger ♫ (talk) 10:28, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Tentative support, mostly pending on the WMF response. I don't particularly like Fram, but based on the evidence available so far, and WMF statements made so far, this seems like gross overreach and completely unwarranted. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 14:57, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Our Wikipedia cannot function properly if it is subject to this dark, unaccountable power. --NSH001 (talk) 15:19, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not our call - it appears too few editors have a full understanding of the general powers of the WMF, so I'll just drop this link right here for whoever feels the need to learn how things operate per the WMF's By-Laws, and where we sit on the totem pole. Atsme Talk 📧 15:30, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not our call - is totally correct. Govindaharihari (talk) 17:01, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment all this "not our call" or "mu" is pathetic. The British public no longer has a say on Brexit yet they can express their opinion. The folks protesting in Hong Kong can't, themselves, change laws, but they can express their opinions. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Pathetic. Brexit and Hong Kong are meaningless here, we are not an activist site. Govindaharihari (talk) 17:40, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well you missed the point 100%. The examples given were simply to state that you can still give your opinion even if you can't enact it. But sorry if that was too much for you. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:50, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- there you go again , belittling other users comments, a pattern for you. Govindaharihari (talk) 17:58, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well you missed the point 100%. The examples given were simply to state that you can still give your opinion even if you can't enact it. But sorry if that was too much for you. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:50, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- The heading of the section says "unban Fram" as a proposed course of action. We cannot take such a course of action, which is why mu is the correct answer. But to the extent that we are making some form of statement of opinion on what the WMF should do, oppose, given all the invective and personal attacks Fram threw toward the Committee (both collectively and as individuals) recently, and the fact that he followed me to multiple unrelated places to continue "confronting" me in a rather transparent exercise at wiki-stalking. That, itself, was harassment. His comments went far beyond criticism toward personally attacking individuals and stalking them. And before you ask, some example diffs: [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] ~ Rob13Talk 17:48, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Rob, didn't you retire about five times? And even if (once again) you haven't, those diffs just prove that people like Fram don't trust Arbcom etc. Saying "fuck Arbcom" isn't a crime. Just like saying "Fuck Trump" or "Fuck May". Get over it. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:52, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- that's personal attack, so what, we can all do whatever we want, bullying in my opinion. Govindaharihari (talk) 17:55, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Can you explain what constitutes a 'personal attack' in the above post? And while you're at it, can you all sort out the complete fucking mess of indents. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:55, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- that's personal attack, so what, we can all do whatever we want, bullying in my opinion. Govindaharihari (talk) 17:55, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Rob, Fram was quite correct to revert you in that last diff - being an arb doesn’t give you the right to edit through protection when the page has not yet gone live. Admin permissions are supposed to be not a requirement for being on the Committee. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:13, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Rob, didn't you retire about five times? And even if (once again) you haven't, those diffs just prove that people like Fram don't trust Arbcom etc. Saying "fuck Arbcom" isn't a crime. Just like saying "Fuck Trump" or "Fuck May". Get over it. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:52, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Can we all cool it with the invective above please? It's not reflecting well on either party, or the community as a whole. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:08, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- TRM has been harrying any perceived opposition to his strident opposition at every opportunity, I don't think that is just an opinion. The comment was unequivocally thuggish. @Govindaharihari: TRM is fuelled by righteous indignation, don't get sucked into his need to gain satisfaction by insulting others. cygnis insignis 18:29, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks Cygnis and agree. Govindaharihari (talk) 18:35, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- No Cygnis, your actions and opinions have been overtly proven incorrect here. I have no "righteous indignation", I would like a clear indication as to why someone can be covertly banned for one year. Rob has told us all, numerous times, that he has retied, yet he continues to opine. That is not retiring. I suggest you try another front. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: I stand by my attempts to suppress drama mongering that causes real damage to other people, but not privy to the determination where I was proven wrong. There is currently no constraint to your conduct, no limit to trolling and harrying of people you nominate as adversaries. Your pronouncements are absurdly one-sided, it stinks of war and fear. It would be silly to express an opinion in the absence of information that I may have no business knowing. There are several possibilities that haven't been aired, no matter how narrow that possibility is, and some already aired that outline how it may be none of your business either. Do you accept that possibility? cygnis insignis 23:16, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Your hyperbole is noted and speaks volumes, I need add no more comment. Two things are clear. The ban is wrong. Rob hasn't retired. If you wish to continue to dispute those facts, please, you have the floor. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:03, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: I stand by my attempts to suppress drama mongering that causes real damage to other people, but not privy to the determination where I was proven wrong. There is currently no constraint to your conduct, no limit to trolling and harrying of people you nominate as adversaries. Your pronouncements are absurdly one-sided, it stinks of war and fear. It would be silly to express an opinion in the absence of information that I may have no business knowing. There are several possibilities that haven't been aired, no matter how narrow that possibility is, and some already aired that outline how it may be none of your business either. Do you accept that possibility? cygnis insignis 23:16, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- No Cygnis, your actions and opinions have been overtly proven incorrect here. I have no "righteous indignation", I would like a clear indication as to why someone can be covertly banned for one year. Rob has told us all, numerous times, that he has retied, yet he continues to opine. That is not retiring. I suggest you try another front. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks Cygnis and agree. Govindaharihari (talk) 18:35, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- BU Rob13, thanks for posting that set of diffs. They don't appear to be terribly egregious, but I suppose I could be wrong. A question for you: in their June 11, at 19:27 response the OFFICE writes:
Secondly, we believe it would have been improper to ask the Arbcom to adjudicate a case in which it was one primary target of the person in question, as this could put volunteers into a very difficult position and create the appearance of a conflict of interest regardless of the actual handling of the case.
Do you believe your diffs provide the answer to the question re "conflict of interest"? I've been wondering what that conflict could have been and why they decided to bypass Arbcom. Thanks. Victoria (tk) 18:20, 16 June 2019 (UTC)- The WMF explicitly cited the "Fuck ArbCom" diff as their one example of Fram's pattern of harassment and/or abusing others. I assumed that diff was the potential conflict.
I disagree with you on how egregious the diffs are. No volunteer should have to face a person saying all this in the span of a day or two: "Fuck you" (ArbCom, in the original quote, but made more general), "crawl into a corner and shut up", "tonedeaf powergrabbers", etc., with further comments suggesting someone shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard. Add onto that the following me to an unrelated ArbCom case just to revert me trying to perform my duties as an arbitrator and take shots at me in an edit summary... These are Fram's actions toward just me. He treats most people this way, from what I've seen. Why on earth would we want that around the project? ~ Rob13Talk 18:29, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, Rob. I thought it goes without saying that the "fuck Arbcom" comment isn't worth discussing; I was talking about the others not being particularly egregious (based only on my own experiences, of course). Anyway, thanks for the reply. Victoria (tk) 18:38, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Utter nonsense. There's no justification at all for a one-year unappealable off-wiki ordered ban for editors who may or may not upset others. That's why we have dispute resolution, ANI and (sadly) Arbcom. We don't need a God-account to suddenly drop by and issue executive orders without rhyme or reason. That's what Nazis did. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:57, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Whoa, The Rambling Man, back down! I worded that sentence carefully, "isn't worth discussing", can mean any number of things. Sheesh. If you want to scream at me for it, come to my user page. Victoria (tk) 22:10, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Victoriaearle sorry for the confusion. My response wasn't to you. Ironically there are a number of individuals here who can't format responses properly. I didn't want to scream at you at all. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:14, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Whoa, The Rambling Man, back down! I worded that sentence carefully, "isn't worth discussing", can mean any number of things. Sheesh. If you want to scream at me for it, come to my user page. Victoria (tk) 22:10, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Utter nonsense. There's no justification at all for a one-year unappealable off-wiki ordered ban for editors who may or may not upset others. That's why we have dispute resolution, ANI and (sadly) Arbcom. We don't need a God-account to suddenly drop by and issue executive orders without rhyme or reason. That's what Nazis did. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:57, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Most of the diffs were on ArbCom pages. Where were the clerks? --Rschen7754 03:54, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Did we change how we indent replies to people while I wasnt looking? nableezy - 04:09, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, Rob. I thought it goes without saying that the "fuck Arbcom" comment isn't worth discussing; I was talking about the others not being particularly egregious (based only on my own experiences, of course). Anyway, thanks for the reply. Victoria (tk) 18:38, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- The WMF explicitly cited the "Fuck ArbCom" diff as their one example of Fram's pattern of harassment and/or abusing others. I assumed that diff was the potential conflict.
- TRM has been harrying any perceived opposition to his strident opposition at every opportunity, I don't think that is just an opinion. The comment was unequivocally thuggish. @Govindaharihari: TRM is fuelled by righteous indignation, don't get sucked into his need to gain satisfaction by insulting others. cygnis insignis 18:29, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Pathetic. Brexit and Hong Kong are meaningless here, we are not an activist site. Govindaharihari (talk) 17:40, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support only way to restore some semblence of calm and normailty—and, ironically, perhaps (make a start on) put the trust back in "Trust and Safety".. ——SerialNumber54129 22:00, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support Behavioral problems on en-wiki should be handled by en-wiki processes. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:30, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support enough of this Kafkaesque process, Huldra (talk) 23:59, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support If we support overturning the ban and then implement it, what's WMF going to do? Ban us all? Rockstonetalk to me! 06:14, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose/Procedurally impossible. From a procedural perspective, the actions of the Trust and Safety team are allowed, and policy does not allow us to override them. We could definitely go through the process of trying to change those policies, although it will be complicated as it involves legal issues where the Wikimedia Foundation could—and perhaps even may be legally required to—override consensus. This is to say, even if there is a consensus to unban Fram here, it is not procedurally possible to actually enact that consensus. --Deskana (talk) 11:16, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Support: we can make clear at least they are not banned by the Community. Jonathunder (talk) 17:49, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Reinstatement of Office Action and temporary desysop of Floquenbeam
Hello all,
We are aware that a number of community members believe that the recent Trust & Safety Office Action taken against Fram was improper. While the Foundation and its decisions are open to criticism, Office Actions are actions of last resort taken by the Foundation as part of our role and our commitments to hosting the Wikipedia sites. In section 10 of the Terms of Use, we identify that the need may arise as part of our management of the websites to take certain actions, and these actions may not be reversed. Using administrative or other tools or editing rights to reverse or negate an Office Action is unacceptable, as is interfering with other users who attempt to enforce an Office Action or the Terms of Use.
As has been correctly observed by users on the bureaucrats' noticeboard and other places, Office Actions are explicitly not subject to project community rules or consensus. If a user attempts to reverse or negate an Office Action, the Wikimedia Foundation may take any action necessary to preserve that Office Action, including desysopping or blocking a user or users. In this case, and in consideration of Floquenbeam's actions in reversing the Office Action regarding Fram, we have reinstated the original office action and temporarily desysopped Floquenbeam for a period of 30 days.
Floquenbeam's contributions to the projects are appreciated and we are not against them regaining admin rights in the future, hence our action is not permanent. If they wish for their admin rights to be restored, a RfA can be opened once 30 days elapse, and the community may decide on the request at that time in such or another way.
However, we cannot permit efforts to obstruct or reverse Office Actions or to subvert the Terms of Use. Doing so would undermine the policy's ability to protect our projects and community. On these grounds, we will not hesitate to take further appropriate actions should such abuse occur again. The same applies for any attempts made by Floquenbeam to evade the sanctions announced against them today or by attempts by others to override that sanction. We will reply to other concerns in a separate statement as indicated in the post prior to the attempt to overrule the office action. Best regards, WMFOffice (talk) 00:32, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Reaction to Reinstatement of Office Action and temporary desysop of Floquenbeam
- WMFOffice you’ve written
If they wish for their admin rights to be restored, a RfA can be opened once 30 days elapse, and the community may decide on the request at that time in such or another way.
- in particular where you said “in such or another way” could you clarify whether we may establish in the restoration of privileges policy that bureaucrats may summarily restore adminship once the office action has lapsed? (See Wikipedia talk:Administrators). –xenotalk 03:49, 12 June 2019 (UTC) WMFOffice, Whom is speaking, please? Don't hide behind the role account. SQLQuery me! 00:39, 12 June 2019 (UTC)- Go Fuck Yourself, Big Brother. You won't get away with that crap here. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:08, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Good luck. Even FormerArbRob says telling people like Arbcom to fuck off is perfectly adequate grounds for being disappeared. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:10, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Everyone, please remember not to say "F*** the WMF Office for its heavy-handed and authoritarian actions seemingly designed to inflame and divide the editing community." That sort of thing could get you banned. Try to find a more civil way of expressing it. 28bytes (talk) 00:55, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Stop fucking stonewalling us. You're only burying yourselves deeper. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 00:59, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- This is exactly the wrong thing to do if the WMF wishes to de-escalate the situation and maintain the barely tenable perception that they care about concerns raised here at all. – Teratix ₵ 01:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment by me, now moved to below. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:20, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- At this point I don't even think the WMF knows what they want, other than to spite en.wp and its consensus. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 01:09, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes it’s nonsense. The WMF is just making it up as they go along. Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:14, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- At this point I don't even think the WMF knows what they want, other than to spite en.wp and its consensus. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 01:09, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- This will not end well for you. 2001:4898:80E8:2:56DB:4566:6C0F:24E5 (talk) 01:11, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- No, I asked a serious question, and I would like WMF to give a serious answer. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Good luck with that. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 01:16, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Indentation mistake. Was not meant to be a reply to you, but to the clown currently running WMFOffice. If what I'm reading is correct, which it damn well appears to be, there is a SERIOUS conflict of interest and someone is about to lose their entire job. 2001:4898:80E8:2:56DB:4566:6C0F:24E5 (talk) 01:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm still confused why people think there is any real chance any of the major actions of WMFOffice can be ascribed to any one person. This seems extremely unlikely to me knowing what I know (very little in many ways) about the way any sufficient large organisation tends to work when there is something major and that the WMF has shown all signs of fitting into that category. Nil Einne (talk) 01:42, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- P.S. In case there's some confusion, I wouldn't be surprised if it was primarily one person operating the account for big chunks of time although the precise person could change depending on various things. But I find it extremely unlike the major actions i.e. the two blocks and the three major comments here didn't have multiple people approving them before they happened. Nil Einne (talk) 02:03, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm still confused why people think there is any real chance any of the major actions of WMFOffice can be ascribed to any one person. This seems extremely unlikely to me knowing what I know (very little in many ways) about the way any sufficient large organisation tends to work when there is something major and that the WMF has shown all signs of fitting into that category. Nil Einne (talk) 01:42, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Indentation mistake. Was not meant to be a reply to you, but to the clown currently running WMFOffice. If what I'm reading is correct, which it damn well appears to be, there is a SERIOUS conflict of interest and someone is about to lose their entire job. 2001:4898:80E8:2:56DB:4566:6C0F:24E5 (talk) 01:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Good luck with that. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 01:16, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- No, I asked a serious question, and I would like WMF to give a serious answer. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Considering Floq understood that a potential, and not improbable outcome, was a desysop and some kind of ban, I congratulate the WMF on a measured response, though Tryptofish's question could be answered. There is all the world of difference between this statement and action which can point to principles that were clearly laid out and well known and the chain of events that led to the inciting incident. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:24, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- IMO this wasn't really a potential outcome, but a likely one. From where I stand, the only real likely alternative was the WMF implementing a superblock quickly and simply reblocking with a super block and giving a very stern warning to Floquenbeam. But the fact that we don't actually have any existing different levels of blocks (AFAIK, although the upcoming partial blocks could be related) means a superblock/officeblock was always likely to take a while. It's not quite like super-protect where we already had different levels of protection which affected different classes of editors so was I assume a far easier software task. Whatever the wisdom of the original block, or for that matter whatever the harm to community relations, the action they took seemed almost definite since the WMF would feel the need to make it clear when they say something can't be overturned especially a ban, they mean it. Frankly I strongly suspect if legal didn't really care before, they really, really care now. There is simply no way the WMF could realistically risk giving the impression their office actions can be overturned by anyone but themselves. I mean there was a slight chance they would just make clear that the ban still stands, and just hope Fram doesn't test the waters. But IMO even that was likely to be seen as way too risky. This is IMO way more extreme case than super-protect. In that case their actions were fairly predictable for any organisation, but in many ways it didn't matter that much to them that they send a clear message as was the case here. We could keep trying until they implement a superblock, or we could just accept that we need to convince them to change their minds on the ban. Nil Einne (talk) 01:57, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nil Einne, yeah I perhaps understated things but that was my point. Floq did the unblocking knowing the consequences and the WMF, rather than even going as harsh as they could have reasonably and with-in policy go, decided to be measured. This stands in stark contrast to how the foundation failed to really explain what seems to be a movement wide change in policy in addressing certain issues, coupled with more nuanced remedies at their disposal, ahead of their acting on it. That's the distinction I was trying to draw, if doing so imperfectly. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:10, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
And can you, can you imagine fifty admins a day, I said fifty admins a day walking in and unblockin Fram and walkin out. And friends, they may thinks it's a movement. And that's what it is, the Floquenbeam's Restaurant Anti-Massacree Movement, and all you got to do to join is unblock Fram the next time it come's around on the dramaboard. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 01:26, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- That'd actually be really nice. ENWP has always had an issue of long-term 'power-users' getting away with things new users would get blocked for. Q T C 16:02, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
What the actual fuck? CoolSkittle (talk) 01:27, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- @CoolSkittle: Alice's Restaurant. Bishonen | talk 08:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC).
- Is there a reason that you keep blocking Fram with talkpage access and email disabled? Bizarre at best. SQLQuery me! 01:50, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SQL: The only valid usage of talk page (and presumably email, although I'm not aware of an explicit policy on the matter) access is to appeal one's block. A blocked user that (from the WMF's point of view) has literally no means of appealing would have no reason to edit their talk page or send email. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:53, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Pppery: Not actually true. You may find Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive991#Improper use of talk page while blocked interesting. An indeffed editor was not only freely using their talk page, but was using it to continue to make (constructive) edits by proxy. Ironically, it was SQL himself who tried to enforce what you said here, revoking TPA. The ensuing controversy was so severe that he self-reverted, with a majority of the community opposing the revocation, and all agreeing that there was no existing policy or precedent-based guidance. Mind you, that was a user attempting to make edits via proxy while blocked, which could be easily construed as block evasion, and the majority of the community opposed TPA revocation. So while what you say is a common notion (and FWIW I agree with it), it's certainly not an actual rule that the community has ever backed. ~Swarm~ {sting} 05:52, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Your response contains a contradiction—or, at least, a strong tension—between two policies. The first is that WMF is a last-resort enforcer of the project's basic policies. The second is that
Office Actions are explicitly not subject to project community rules or consensus.
Unless WMF restricts administrative sanctions to the most clear-cut cases, that means you're basically going to exercise your powers arbitrarily. I don't know where to go from that, other than it's the kind of thing that can do a lot of damage. --Jprg1966 (talk) 02:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC) - If I were Fram right now I would happily stick 2 fingers up to this website and never return!, What a fucking shit show this has become, I 100% stand by Floq's de-escalation of the issue. –Davey2010Talk 02:17, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
you have lost 3 administrators today, care to go for 4?50.106.16.170 (talk) 02:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm admittedly late to this discussion, 50.106.16.170, but I don't understand your math...Fram, Floq, who's number 3? Liz Read! Talk! 03:32, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Rob, presumably. T. Canens (talk) 03:39, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ansh666 also comes to mind, although that was unrelated. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 04:07, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Notice:_WMF_desysop_of_Floquenbeam total now stands at 5.50.106.16.170 (talk) 07:34, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Rob, presumably. T. Canens (talk) 03:39, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Dear WMF - maybe we should start talkin' about an Revolution. What do you guays in Frisco thing, how log we let do this to us? Who pays who? You guys have to work for us, not against us. The whole behavior here ist the clear kind of acting as in dictatorships. As long you do such Office actions, we need to talk about this office! -- Marcus Cyron (talk) 04:54, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Kudos to Floquenbeam for the moral courage to reverse the action. The opposite to the WMF, who need to read the first law of holes. Tazerdadog (talk) 05:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Please clarify the desysop
I'm moving my comment here, from above. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:20, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I have a question about the meaning of the "temporary desysop". This (among so many other things) is difficult to understand. A "temporary 30-day desysop" would ordinarily mean that, after 30 days, the sysop flag would automatically be restored. It's like a 30-day block, in that after 30 days the user is no longer blocked and does not, at that time, have to file an unblock request. However, the statement above refers to a new RfA. Is it in fact the case that re-sysopping can only occur via a new, successful RfA? If that is so, then calling it a "30-day desysop" is not accurate. Rather, that would mean that the desysop is indefinite and under a cloud, and that the community as a whole is banned for 30 days from participating in a new RfA. Is WMF really sure that they want that? --Tryptofish (talk) 01:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Clarification would be good although they said
If they wish for their admin rights to be restored, a RfA can be opened once 30 days elapse, and the community may decide on the request at that time in such or another way.
(emphasis mine) I take it to mean we could decide a RfA is not necessary after the 30 days has expire, like they seem to have suggested we could do for Fram themselves when their ban expires or is removed. Nil Einne (talk) 01:29, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I take your point, but I still feel a very serious need for clarification, mainly because I don't see what such "another way" would really be. If some "other way" is required, then it wasn't temporary, and WMF is restricting what the community can do, or at least when we can do it. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:35, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- On the one hand, I think that the minute that 30 day clock is up, the nearest 'crat should immediately restore rights. On the other hand, I think it would send a good signal to immediately have an RfA where Floq gets the most votes ever for adminship. bd2412 T 01:44, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- BD2412, I'm sympathetic but, while I'm not a 'crat, if I were, suspect I would struggle it finding authority for such an action. For better or worse, 'crats tend to be, well, bureaucratic. I would welcome some clarification as I also see an inconsistency between the word "temporary" and the subsequent wording.Might guess is they didn't want to make it automatic, but want to leave it to the community to decide but as far as I know there is no precedent so the community has no rules for such a situation. Far better that they treat "temporary" literally and restore the bit at the end of that period, with the community always having the authority to consider whether de-sysopping should occur. S Philbrick(Talk) 18:40, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- 'Crats follow policy. Let's just enact a policy that states: "If a Wikipedia administrator is temporarily relieved of their administrator status by the Wikimedia Foundation for carrying out an administrative action for which local consensus had been established, their administrator status may be restored by any Wikipedia bureaucrat without further process, upon expiration of any period specified by the Wikimedia Foundation". Then the 'crats would be following policy by reinstating the admin bit. bd2412 T 19:24, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Now proposed at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Allow bureaucrats to quickly re-sysop admins temporarily de-sysoped by WMF for carrying out out community consensus. bd2412 T 19:33, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- BD2412, I'm sympathetic but, while I'm not a 'crat, if I were, suspect I would struggle it finding authority for such an action. For better or worse, 'crats tend to be, well, bureaucratic. I would welcome some clarification as I also see an inconsistency between the word "temporary" and the subsequent wording.Might guess is they didn't want to make it automatic, but want to leave it to the community to decide but as far as I know there is no precedent so the community has no rules for such a situation. Far better that they treat "temporary" literally and restore the bit at the end of that period, with the community always having the authority to consider whether de-sysopping should occur. S Philbrick(Talk) 18:40, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
The proposal above is similar to of what I was thinking about. However, even if we put aside that it doesn't seem to have gaining consensus at this time, it's IMO it's somewhat of a flawed proposal if intended to apply to Floquenbeam without further discussion. It's IMO an open question whether Floquenbeam carrying out community consensus. Especially since the discussion was not formally closed by a neutral admin or better 3 as we normally reserve for contentious decisions. (Floquenbeam was clear very far from neutral here so should not be the one to assess community consensus in such circumstances.) It was also not open for a minimum of 24 hours. While the later is the standard we normally require for any community ban, it seems to me any unblock on such contentious circumstances as this would also need to follow the same standard at a minimum, but it did not do so here. Note that as always, any close would need to be more than a simple counting of votes. Even in such overwhelming numbers as this, care needs to be taken. As a participant of said discussion, I'm aware there was at least one editor who expressed support for an unblock of Fram, but did not seem to clearly support going against the WMF in the way Floquenbeam did.
So ultimately it seems difficult to judge that Floquenbeam's action had community consensus from the evidence we had. In other words, even if such a proposal were to pass, I don't think it's clear it would apply to Floquenbeam as worded without some further consensus process to determine that. Still this would not need to be an RFA. We could have instead a community consensus process to determine of Floquenbeam's actions had community consensus. If they did, and the earlier proposal passed, then re-admining Floquenbeam after 30 days would seem to be justified without an RFA. Note that a discussion after the fact would IMO need to be clear on what we're discussing. We would not be discussing whether or not there was community consensus for Floquenbeam's actions, but whether Floquenbeam's actions were carrying out community consensus at the time. If Floquenbeam's actions would have had community consensus, but did not at the time because the consensus process was not completely carried out, this would still seem to point to Floquenbeam's action lacking community consensus. It would IMO be a bit of a disaster if we start allowing people to carry out an action based on community consensus before it's clear that such a consensus existed. Still it's ultimately up to the community. I mean we could decide an action which has consensus as established after the fact is considered to have community consensus when it was carrier out if we wanted to.
An alternative course of action would have been for a clearer proposal that would apply to Floquenbeam without doubt. But I'm not sure how easy it would be to word such a proposal without specific mention of Floquenbeam. Do people really want a policy that we automatically re-admin anyone de-syspoed by the foundation for reversing office action when the foundation no longer has an objection to such a resysop? Again, IMO it would be a mistake but it is up to the community if they wish to do so.
BTW, in terms of whether a "temporary" de-syspoed is really temporary if someone has to go through an RFA this is IMO largely a semantic issue. If I'm right that the WMF have no clear opinion on what should happen after 30 days, then it's up to the bureaucrats taking their queue from the community as to what to do. I don't think we have any clear precedent for a situation like this. I'm not aware of what happened very long ago before circa 2007 or so, but the only recent temporary de-sysops I'm aware of are those where there is doubt who controls the account. Funnily enough, what happens in those circumstances may have been one of the things that lead to this whole mess. Still they aren't a good comparison.
I think even with the WMF saying it's up to the community, bureaucrats will struggle to make a decision without some guidance from us on what should happen. I suspect they'll most likely err on the side of not re-syspoing if we really gave no guidance. As said, this doesn't have to be an RFA, but whatever their flaws in the understanding of what goes on here, the WMF were IMO right to conclude we will need to give guidance in some form if we expect Floquenbeam to be resyspoed.
- On the one hand, I think that the minute that 30 day clock is up, the nearest 'crat should immediately restore rights. On the other hand, I think it would send a good signal to immediately have an RfA where Floq gets the most votes ever for adminship. bd2412 T 01:44, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I take your point, but I still feel a very serious need for clarification, mainly because I don't see what such "another way" would really be. If some "other way" is required, then it wasn't temporary, and WMF is restricting what the community can do, or at least when we can do it. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:35, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Clarification would be good although they said
- @Tryptofish: As the most likely explanation, I would guess that the person/people who wrote the message simply don't have a good understanding of enWP policies and procedures, and so they didn't know that what they wrote is self-contradictory. That and using the word "temporary", especially in the heading, makes the optics of their action look better. Sunrise (talk) 04:07, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for a very reasonable interpretation, but I still believe that we, as a community, really do not know what can or cannot be done. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:49, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish: As the most likely explanation, I would guess that the person/people who wrote the message simply don't have a good understanding of enWP policies and procedures, and so they didn't know that what they wrote is self-contradictory. That and using the word "temporary", especially in the heading, makes the optics of their action look better. Sunrise (talk) 04:07, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- It is very, very unfortunate that instead of a measured response -- which would have been to maintain the status quo of Floq's clearly community-backed unblock -- WMOffice has chosen to go the authoritarian route and desysop Floquenbeam. I would urge someone with the proper amount of chutzpah and the necessary rights to restore Floq's flag. I think the point needs to be made, as forcefully as possible, that the community will not stand for unaccountable Office actions which bypass or override normal community-based processes.
Not to be too melodramatic, what is being decided here is who is in charge, and I believe that if the community, collectively and individually, does not stand up to the Foundation and its staff members when they behave in ways which are detrimental to our ability to govern ourselves, we will, over time, lose that capacity altogether. That is really what's at stake here, and Jimbo Wales had better step up his "investigation" and report back PDQ before he loses what he created.
This is not a call to the barricades ... yet, but it is intended as a warning to Wales, the Board, and the office staff that they are playing with fire, and if they think that en.Wiki -- which is the community, is going to roll over and play dead, they could well be surprised. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:54, 12 June 2019 (UTC)- At the very least, the WMF board needs to meet via teleconference and make the decision to set the playing field back to zero, undo every Office Action taken in this incident, and open a frank and honest dialogue with the community instead of hiding behind empty boilerplate bullshit. The people who built this encyclopedia deserve nothing less. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:58, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- There's no need for clarification. They can do whatever the fuck they want without explanation. It is absolutely, strictly, THEIR COMPUTER and they'll throw off whoever they feel like, censor whatever they want, push whatever shitty video game ads on the Main Page they want, and work with any and all paid editors they want. Wnt (talk) 01:56, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wnt, please stop your pessimistic and paranoid (as well as wildly unrealistic and ungrounded) postings here. I believe everyone is well aware of your viewpoint, and, frankly, you're not helping anything by constantly being Debbie Downer. If you have so little faith that the Foundation wants to help make en.wiki better, despite their current missteps, you should simply stop editing here and find something else to do with your time. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Good luck. Paranoid conspiracy theories, particularly on Wale’s TP, is WNT’s thing. Capeo (talk) 02:46, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- ...and it is exceedingly tiresome, Wnt. Like a broken record. Go back to Jimbo's talk page where you usually hang out and make dire predictions. Liz Read! Talk! 03:37, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wnt's posts look perfectly factual and accurate to me, in saying what could happen (not necessarily what will happen, at least immediately). Maybe Debbie Downer is just a Depressive realist ;-). 67.164.113.165 (talk) 04:40, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Since Wnt is prognosticating, unless you've got a time machine that can take you into the future, there's no possible what that you can know that they are "factual and accurate". If what you meant to say was "I agree with Wnt" or "I think that what Wnt said is a possible outcome of this affair", please just say those things, and not wrap your personal opinions up in false claims of factuality. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:13, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- This is an important and thought provoking tangent, imo, i.e. Is what WNT saying "factual and accurate". I admit I do not know enough about the inner workings and relationships between the WMF and the rest of us, so I'd like to try to figure this out by critical thinking and perhaps a thought experiment. I am intrigued by WNT's claim that "it is absolutely, strictly THEIR COMPUTER". What exactly is that statement saying and is it factual and accurate? Nocturnalnow (talk) 14:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Since Wnt is prognosticating, unless you've got a time machine that can take you into the future, there's no possible what that you can know that they are "factual and accurate". If what you meant to say was "I agree with Wnt" or "I think that what Wnt said is a possible outcome of this affair", please just say those things, and not wrap your personal opinions up in false claims of factuality. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:13, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wnt's posts look perfectly factual and accurate to me, in saying what could happen (not necessarily what will happen, at least immediately). Maybe Debbie Downer is just a Depressive realist ;-). 67.164.113.165 (talk) 04:40, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- ...and it is exceedingly tiresome, Wnt. Like a broken record. Go back to Jimbo's talk page where you usually hang out and make dire predictions. Liz Read! Talk! 03:37, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Good luck. Paranoid conspiracy theories, particularly on Wale’s TP, is WNT’s thing. Capeo (talk) 02:46, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wnt, please stop your pessimistic and paranoid (as well as wildly unrealistic and ungrounded) postings here. I believe everyone is well aware of your viewpoint, and, frankly, you're not helping anything by constantly being Debbie Downer. If you have so little faith that the Foundation wants to help make en.wiki better, despite their current missteps, you should simply stop editing here and find something else to do with your time. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, 28: F*** the WMF Office for its heavy-handed and authoritarian actions seemingly designed to inflame and divide the editing community. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 04:16, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- 28bytes-- to misquote Fram: Fuck
ArbComWMF which doesn't even understand their own messages and again give themselves powers they don't have. First it wasdeletionsvisual editing, then it wasmandatory 2FA"AI-generated content", inbetween it is loads of evidence of utter incompetence in many of its members (witness the statement byAGKthe WMF Trust & Safety Team above, but also some of the comments at e.g. theRamaMedia Viewer RFC case request). Just crawl into a corner and shut up until the community asks you to do something within your remit, but don't try to rule enwiki as if you have the right and the competence to do so. Or collectively resign. But don't give us any more of this bullshit.Fram (talk) 07:39, 4 May 2019 (UTC)67.164.113.165 (talk) 04:19, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- There's no clarification needed IMHO. They've said temporary, it's temporary and he gets the rights back after 30 days. They can desysop but they can't mandate an RfA. I think that's a misunderstanding on their part. Doug Weller talk 05:25, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- They can because the bureaucrats interpret being desysopped by the WMF as "under a cloud" and will not give the bit back without a RfA. Enigmamsg 05:39, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- The crats, the community at RfA, it doesn't really matter. The default for desysopping is that the bit can be reinstated via RfA at any time, with the understanding that a just desysop could not be reversed for years and years. The 30 day freeze on resysopping, AFAIK, is unprecedented, which is hilarious, because they're admitting that they know that everyone would rubber-stamp a resysop same day if we could, which by extension is an admission that the desysop is blatantly unjust and that they need to prevent it from being overturned for their own reasons. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I just think it's significant that the 'crats indicated they will not return the bit because while being without the bit for 30 days is not a big deal, having to undergo a new RfA is. You'll deal with the usual opposes from anyone who doesn't like you, plus added opposes from people who believe "if you were desysopped, you obviously did something very wrong, so you shouldn't be trusted with the tools." Good luck finding anyone who was desysopped and actually passed a RfA. I think Floq would pass because the RfA would get tons of eyes and the community overwhelmingly feels the WMF is out of line, but not without a significant amount of opposes. Enigmamsg 06:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Enigmaman: in both your comments above you seem to indicate a belief that the bureaucrats have presented a unified front on this matter, but I do not see that as the case. What is clear is that to return the bit summarily after 30 days requires either new community policy considerations or an IAR action as this situation is unprecedented on this project. –xenotalk 19:31, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- The discussion may have changed since I read it. I read the discussion at BN/WT:ADMIN before I commented here and based on the discussion at the time, every 'crat (who chimed in) had said they would not resysop automatically. Obviously, time has now passed since my comments, and more replies have been made at BN/WT:ADMIN. Enigmamsg 20:24, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Enigmaman: in both your comments above you seem to indicate a belief that the bureaucrats have presented a unified front on this matter, but I do not see that as the case. What is clear is that to return the bit summarily after 30 days requires either new community policy considerations or an IAR action as this situation is unprecedented on this project. –xenotalk 19:31, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Swarm, not unprecedented, see [22] for the same. Quite possibly that's the last case of something similar, which received the same response. Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:33, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Galobtter, interesting, and relevant. What happened at the end of 30 days? S Philbrick(Talk) 18:44, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- You can see the discussion at c:Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/03#Edit_and_wheel_warring, not sure what happened at the end of it. Galobtter (pingó mió) 18:56, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Galobtter, interesting, and relevant. What happened at the end of 30 days? S Philbrick(Talk) 18:44, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I just think it's significant that the 'crats indicated they will not return the bit because while being without the bit for 30 days is not a big deal, having to undergo a new RfA is. You'll deal with the usual opposes from anyone who doesn't like you, plus added opposes from people who believe "if you were desysopped, you obviously did something very wrong, so you shouldn't be trusted with the tools." Good luck finding anyone who was desysopped and actually passed a RfA. I think Floq would pass because the RfA would get tons of eyes and the community overwhelmingly feels the WMF is out of line, but not without a significant amount of opposes. Enigmamsg 06:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- The crats, the community at RfA, it doesn't really matter. The default for desysopping is that the bit can be reinstated via RfA at any time, with the understanding that a just desysop could not be reversed for years and years. The 30 day freeze on resysopping, AFAIK, is unprecedented, which is hilarious, because they're admitting that they know that everyone would rubber-stamp a resysop same day if we could, which by extension is an admission that the desysop is blatantly unjust and that they need to prevent it from being overturned for their own reasons. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- They can because the bureaucrats interpret being desysopped by the WMF as "under a cloud" and will not give the bit back without a RfA. Enigmamsg 05:39, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- So, what admin wants to unblock Fram next? I don't care that this is wheel-warring; the WMF fucked this up royally, and consensus that the block and ban is unjustified, as far as I can see, has not changed at all. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 06:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I would strongly discourage this. The WMF already basically mandated Floq will need a new RfA and it can only be done after 30 days. I doubt they'll be as 'lenient' with the next one. Anyone considering unblocking Fram should consider that there's a very real possibility that they won't be an admin here for a long time. The WMF knows the community is against them. They don't care and they will continue to lash out at those who defy them. Enigmamsg 06:18, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Then let them lash out. Let them deop whoever the fuck they please. Let them ban whoever the fuck they please. The more open our defiance, the more open their responces to it will necessarily have to be, and it's going to spill out sooner rather than later. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 06:24, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think this must go to ArbCom for clarification. RfA is the community process.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- When this all ends, I think both Fram and Floq should be able to just approach the bureaucrats and ask for their admin rights back as former admins in good standing. Insisting they go through RfA is just another insult. Reyk YO! 08:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Is this the first time someone has been temporarily desysoped? My understanding is this Wikipedia's rule has always been that editors either hold the tools indefinitely, or not at all. I can't think of a case of ArbCom removing the tools for a set period - as far as I'm aware, they always desysop indefinitely, with the editor being able to regain the tools only after the community endorses this in an RfA. I don't think this sets a good precedent. Nick-D (talk) 08:58, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nick-D, in the earliest days of Wikipedia, we used to have temporary desysops. Need to check the ArbCom case archives. ∯WBGconverse 09:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for that reply. As well as the question as to why the WMF thought this was a good response given that it doesn't reflect modern nroms, it's also unclear to be why Floq wasn't referred to ArbCom per the usual procedure for admins believed to have missused the tools. Surely ArbCom could be trusted to handle this? Nick-D (talk) 10:42, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nick-D, in the earliest days of Wikipedia, we used to have temporary desysops. Need to check the ArbCom case archives. ∯WBGconverse 09:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
30 days - or 24?
@WMFOffice: - you say that he is de-sysopped for 30 days, and the community can run an RfA after that point. Putting aside (just for now) the rightness/wrongness of this action, surely the community can run an RfA after 24 days. The requirement is "not to become an admin again within 30 days", RfAs take a week, however overwhelming the support. If an RfA is forbidden till then, you've punished him for 37 days - which would mean stating 30 days would be a lie. Nosebagbear (talk) 13:56, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- They never said the discussion had to run for seven days. It's up to us how long we want it to run. Smartyllama (talk) 14:17, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- That's a distinction without a difference. All RfAs here run at least seven days if they're to be closed as successful, so if they're saying an RfA is required (which is not exactly clear, because none of their statements have been clear about anything), then they are saying at least 7 days. Enigmamsg 14:29, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Self-inflicted damage to the WMF reputation needs to be considered
I have been a participant to this project since 2005, a registered editor since 2008, and an admin since 2011. Over that time I've witnessed multiple incidents that the Foundation didn't handle perfectly, but I never lost faith in the WMF entirely. After nearly 15 years, I have lost faith in the WMF. You no longer have my trust. You no longer have my support. If a journalist came to me right now, I would throw the WMF under the bus as a terrible and corrupt organization that has lost its founding principles. It will take serious steps to begin to reestablish that trust. It is clear that I am not the only one feeling this way. A significant portion of the community has had their faith in the WMF shattered. Most notably, Floquenbeam and Bishonen, two of our greatest, and most policy-compliant, admins of all time, who have openly rebelled in spite of the revocation of their tools. These are people who gave a great deal to your project. If you want this project to survive long term, you need to start taking the community seriously, right now. Jimbo has taken us seriously since the early days. If the WMF wishes to betray that precedent, then it deserves to be relegated to the ash heap of history. And it will. You are not immune to the court of public opinion, and you need to start realizing this. This is a turning point in Wikipedia's history. You can either side with the community, or against it. But make no mistake that your decision will make a difference in the development of Wikimedia long after this blows over. If successful in repressing this dissent, it may well break out in the media later on as a successful coverup. There are few things the public hates more than a corrupt charity. ~Swarm~ {sting} 09:37, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- And in case it literally needs to be spelled out, it’s a big fucking deal that Floquenbeam and Bishonen have fallen on their swords over this. These are not random admins. These are serious pillars of the community who can’t be replaced. ~Swarm~ {sting} 09:54, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Echo above in its entirety. I have (had?) a lot of faith in WMF, and I know editors who have either worked with WMF, it's sub-orgs or were contractors, and needless to say, they were wonderful people. But, what we are seeing is a terrible, terrible way to reflect their lack of faith in the community. This needs to stop, for an organization which claims they conduct their business transparently, this is the equivalent of dirty and opaque knee-jerk reactions. Each of their response is increasing stonewalling of the community and just seems to be an authoritarian actions as a byproduct of their arbitrary whims. They keep saying each of their actions is thought out and passed through multiple staffs and that just makes it so much more worse than bad decisions, this shows a terrible design by committee that fails from the get-go. As someone who has faith in the WMF, this is just amazingly terrible behaviour from an organization that seeks to help the community. You do not have my vote of confidence any more. And everyone from the WMF who is involved in this and everyone who partook in this opaque, stonewalling move is not welcome to this community. That is all I had to say. --qedk (t 桜 c) 09:57, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
WMF chair "sexism" whitewash
- The WMF Chair is now directly attempting to whitewash the community outrage as sexist. If this is our reward for dedication to the project, labelled by someone who couldn't who hasn't actually been an active contributor to the project since 2007, then I don't see what the point of any of this is. ~Swarm~ {sting} 10:59, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- Rubbish. When you are being trolled and your personal life made sport of, including open calls to go sniffing for dirt through personal social media accounts, in some cases by active Wikipedians who are contributing to this page, then the response here is both understandable and justified. Honestly, you think none of that motivation is for bad reasons? See Jerk. --Fæ (talk) 11:05, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- There was certainly no possibility of sexism in the community's initial reaction to Floquenbeam's de-sysop, since the reason cited was a general statement of disregard for ArbCom. The prior warnings looked like innocent edits and certainly had no screaming banner of sex hanging over them. Heck, I'd always assumed Flo was a woman, and had to go back and change my first comments because I kept saying 'her' by accident.
- That said, there is obvious potential for some "GamerGate" response tactics, which are typically to be held rightly in very low regard. Caveat being that if Wikipedia becomes an organization where central power dictates who is in and who is out and what must be deleted and what spin an article has to have, then it isn't itself any better than GamerGate tactics and there is then no moral basis on which to condemn them; they would just be "ordinary politics" at that point. Wnt (talk) 11:33, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I have no idea what you’re referring to, Fae. I have done nothing of the sort. Neither have the vast majority of the community who are outraged, including the admins who have given up the bit over this. I don’t know who you are referring to, but it’s certainly not most of us. It’s clear insanity has prevailed here and speaking out against it will only get us slandered by the Chair herself. Until some semblance of common sense and respect for the community has been retaken, I’m done contributing. ~Swarm~ {sting} 11:37, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- It's nonsense because I have been highly critical of the lack of transparency and accountability for the use of the WMF Office account for years and was one of the first in the line to support firm re-action. What Raystorm has written on this page did not slander me, nor do I feel disrespected.
- Read the personal statement in context. This was a response by Raystorm, who is being subject to intense trolling and ridicule by a number of f***tards. It was not a statement by the WMF board, and I did not read it as a statement by the WMF Chair. This is Raystorm putting in her 2c and it is perfectly understandable if she is hopping mad at the bullshit she and her personal life is being subjected to.
- So, read, think, get real. --Fæ (talk) 11:57, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I have no idea what you’re referring to, Fae. I have done nothing of the sort. Neither have the vast majority of the community who are outraged, including the admins who have given up the bit over this. I don’t know who you are referring to, but it’s certainly not most of us. It’s clear insanity has prevailed here and speaking out against it will only get us slandered by the Chair herself. Until some semblance of common sense and respect for the community has been retaken, I’m done contributing. ~Swarm~ {sting} 11:37, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I see sexism here in the response to the ban. I also see a bunch of mostly male editors who have a great deal more tolerance for harassment than do female editors. I don't know if you want to label that as sexist, but this whole discussion should be Exhibit A for why our editing community remains mostly male. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:48, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- With respect, the gender issue was never raised at all until Raystorm did so. I can see no gender-based comments in this entire thread before that section. Black Kite (talk) 18:14, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Black Kite. EllenCT (talk) 01:07, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I've been pondering this, and I agree too. Sexism is a very serious, and very real, thing. It should be taken seriously, and there is no place for it at Wikipedia. But that does not mean that the very real concerns of many members of the community are the result of sexism. To a far, far greater degree, the concerns were triggered by some incredibly clumsy moves by the WMF. Editors should be able to call foul on that without being accused of sexism. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:21, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nuance always gets lost in outrage. My read of Raystorm's post mentions the user in question has been the subject of harassment for being named and caught in the crossfire here. I don't think the community is being accused of sexism as a whole, but rather noting the damage to the named user is greater because the user publicly identifies as female on the site, especially since - I believe? - Raystorm identifies as male. Regardless of how we got here, this is a problem worth noting. I strongly disagree with the sentiment the community outrage is sexist, but I do believe an arm of it absolutely is. SportingFlyer T·C 06:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- SportingFlyer, Raystorm is Maria Sefidari - see here for more information. Mr Ernie (talk) 06:25, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Mr Ernie: Thank you - I read the comment below which suggested the user's name was Raymond Storms and took it literally. SportingFlyer T·C 06:57, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SportingFlyer: - and to clarify for everyone else - I was referring to a hypothetical situation of two males in my below post.. starship.paint (talk) 07:06, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: I apologise for jumping to conclusions. SportingFlyer T·C 08:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SportingFlyer: - okay, don't worry about it! starship.paint (talk) 08:20, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: I apologise for jumping to conclusions. SportingFlyer T·C 08:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SportingFlyer: - and to clarify for everyone else - I was referring to a hypothetical situation of two males in my below post.. starship.paint (talk) 07:06, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Mr Ernie: Thank you - I read the comment below which suggested the user's name was Raymond Storms and took it literally. SportingFlyer T·C 06:57, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- SportingFlyer, Raystorm is Maria Sefidari - see here for more information. Mr Ernie (talk) 06:25, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nuance always gets lost in outrage. My read of Raystorm's post mentions the user in question has been the subject of harassment for being named and caught in the crossfire here. I don't think the community is being accused of sexism as a whole, but rather noting the damage to the named user is greater because the user publicly identifies as female on the site, especially since - I believe? - Raystorm identifies as male. Regardless of how we got here, this is a problem worth noting. I strongly disagree with the sentiment the community outrage is sexist, but I do believe an arm of it absolutely is. SportingFlyer T·C 06:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I've been pondering this, and I agree too. Sexism is a very serious, and very real, thing. It should be taken seriously, and there is no place for it at Wikipedia. But that does not mean that the very real concerns of many members of the community are the result of sexism. To a far, far greater degree, the concerns were triggered by some incredibly clumsy moves by the WMF. Editors should be able to call foul on that without being accused of sexism. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:21, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Black Kite. EllenCT (talk) 01:07, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Calliopejen1: -
I also see a bunch of mostly male editors who have a great deal more tolerance for harassment than do female editors.
- okay, so from your statement, males apparently think differently from females.I don't know if you want to label that as sexist
- would males thinking differently be sexist? Not in my view. It would only be sexist if the male editors would not tolerate harassment of other male editors, but allowed harassment of female ones. Frankly, I don't think anything at all would change if, hypothetically, the accuser was Lawrence Male, and the Foundation member being Raymond Storms. starship.paint (talk) 01:50, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Not only am I not a "gamergater", I never even heard the term until Raystorm decided to paint the community with it. I'm unsure whether I should be offended or not and I am deliberately not reading up on whatever her pet issue is. Enigmamsg 20:49, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Can someone link to where Raystorm made the statement this thread discusses? If it had been posted here, the recent refactoring (which IMHO has been helpful) removed it. -- llywrch (talk) 19:40, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- /Archive 1#Response from Raystorm. —Cryptic 19:50, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Further response from Fram
I have to step away from the computer for a bit, but there has been a further response from Fram over on Commons, see here. Maybe someone can copy that here, or include as a subsection above in the original response section. Not sure. Obviously too much back-and-forth will get difficult to manage, but pointing it out as no-one else seems to have seen it yet. Carcharoth (talk) 14:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
- For the record, since Fram has wisely not been saying too much over on Commons (apart from dealing with some trolling directed against them), but has said some more, there is this. My experience of this sort of cross-wiki communication with a single-project banned user is that it can get out of control, so it should be minimised (but it is still important to keep an eye on what is being said). This is particularly important in this case, because the head of the WMF's T&S team have said they will enact a global lock if Fram edits over here, and arguably proxying here for them can be seen as enabling that, so some care is needed here. Please note I have asked Fram if they wish the local block to be re-enacted to avoid accidentally triggering that (this is a pragmatic response to what the WMF said, not a judgement either way on whether the WMF should have said that or the principles involved). I believe self-requested blocks are still allowed (and can be lifted at any time), so if that gets requested (no idea what Fram's response will be), maybe someone else could look out for that as I am logging off soon for the night. Maybe put this in new section if it needs more prominence. Carcharoth (talk) 23:45, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
About the ban
First, thank you to everyone who stands up against or at least questions the handling of this by the WMF (no matter if you think I'm a good admin or if you believe I should have been banned a long time already).
Then, to the actual case. As far as I am concerned, there are no privacy reasons involved in any of this (never mind anything legally actionable). I'll repeat it once more, if it wasn't clear:
- I have not contacted anyone I was in conflict with in any offwiki way (be it through email, social media, real life contact, whatever)
- I have not discussed anyone I was in conflict with in any offwiki way (e.g. I have not contacted employers, I haven't discussed editors or articles at fora, twitter, reddit, whatever).
- I haven't threatened to do any of the above either.
- I don't know who made complaints about me to the WMF, and I won't speculate on it. The information I gave in my original post here just repeated the info I got from the WMF.
I invite the WMF to either simply confirm that my original post was a fair summary of the posts they sent me, or else to publish the posts in full (I don't think any editors were named in their posts, but if necessary they can strike out such names if they prefer). I also invite the WMF to explain why standard procedures weren't tried first, i.e. why they didn't refer the complainants to our regular channels first.
I'll not comment too much further, to avoid throwing fuel on the fire (or giving them a pretext to extend the ban). I'll not edit enwiki for the moment either, even when unblocked (thanks for that though), at least until the situation has become a bit clearer. Fram (talk) 11:14, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
One more thing, regarding my first post here, and now BU Rob13 claming that it was misleading: they have their facts wrong (e.g. the warning was not from a year ago, but from March 2019), but I noticed on rereading my post that I had one fact wrong as well. I said that I had received an interaction ban, but what I actually had was:
- "However, in the hopes of avoiding any future issues and in the spirit of Laura’s own request on her talk page, we would like to ask that you refrain from making changes to content that she produces, in any way (directly or indirectly), from this point on. This includes but is not limited to direct editing of it, tagging, nominating for deletion, etc. If you happen to find issues with Laura’s content, we suggest that you instead leave it for others to review and handle as they see fit. This approach will allow you to continue to do good work while reducing the potential for conflict between you and Laura.
- We hope for your cooperation with the above request, so as to avoid any sanctions from our end in the future. To be clear, we are not placing an interaction ban between you and Laura at this time. We ask that her request to stay away from her and the content she creates be respected, so that there is no need for any form of intervention or punitive actions from our end."
To me, a "suggestion" that I stay away from her or I would get sanctioned by them does read like an actual interaction ban, but technically it wasn't. But whether it was an interaction ban or not, former arb BU Rob13 should be aware that mentioning an interaction ban and the editors you are banned from in the course of ban discussions and the like is perfectly acceptable. I did not drop her name just for the fun of it, I raised the issue because it was the only thing I got alerted from by the WMF between their vague first warning in April 2018, and the ban now. I was trying to be complete and open, but apparently that was "misleading"?
BU Rob13 may think the LauraHale thing was unrelated, but the actual mail by the WMF says otherwise:
- "This decision has come following extensive review of your conduct on that project and is an escalation to the Foundation’s past efforts to encourage course correction, including a conduct warning issued to you on April 2018 and a conduct warning reminder issued to you on March 2019. "
(note that the "including" may suggest that there is more than these two, but there isn't: the March 2019 reminder is the LauraHale one).
All of this could be made easier if the WMF posted their full mails of course (although by now large chunks have been reposted here). Doing this the wiki way instead of through mail would have helped a lot. Fram (talk) 13:12, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
Statement from Jan Eissfeldt, Lead Manager of Trust & Safety
Dear members of the English Wikipedia community,
My name is Jan Eissfeldt and I’m commenting in my role as Lead Manager of the Wikimedia Foundation Trust & Safety team about the team’s recent investigation and office actions. In addition to this comment, the Trust & Safety team will be making a statement at Arbitration Committee Requests/WJBscribe tomorrow.
I want to apologize for the disruption caused by the introduction of new type of sanctions without better communication with this community beforehand. While these changes were the result of the changes to the Trust & Safety team’s processes, and are not an expansion of the team’s scope, I know that these changes to the processes came as a surprise to many people within the community, and that many of you have questions about the changes.
Responding to community concerns about the office action requires deliberation and takes some time. We have been in active dialogue with staff and others - including the Board - to work on resolutions, but we understand that the time this takes opens the door for speculation and allowed concerns to expand.
I realize that this situation has been difficult for the English Wikipedia’s Arbitration Committee (ArbCom). The Trust & Safety team apologizes for not working more closely with them in the lead-up to this point. We will improve our coordination with community-elected bodies like ArbCom across the movement when carrying out our duties.
I also want to elaborate on the reasons that Trust & Safety cases will not be discussed in public and often not even privately with members of the Wikimedia movement who sign Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDAs). When we receive non-public information, the Wikimedia Foundation must handle it in a manner that is both consistent with our Privacy Policy and any other commitments made to the person disclosing their information. When dealing with sensitive allegations of inappropriate behavior, we must ensure that we are upholding a relationship of trust and confidence with people who have entrusted us with personal information about their experiences. This means that even in cases where users have signed a community NDA, our legal obligations may not allow us to share information given to us.
Additionally, I want to explain the reason for using a role account when performing office actions and during follow up communication. Decisions, statements, and actions regarding things such as Office Actions are not individually-taken; rather, they are a product of collaboration of multiple people at the Foundation, oftentimes up to and including the Executive Director. As a result, we use the WMFOffice account as a “role” account, representing the fact that these are Foundation actions and statements, not a single person’s.
Some of you may remember that Trust & Safety staff used to sign with their individual accounts when discussing Office Actions. Unfortunately, this is no longer possible due to safety concerns for Foundation employees, as in the past staff have been personally targeted for threats of violence due to their Office Action edits. I am taking the step of making this statement personally in this case due to extraordinary necessity.
There continue to be questions from some people about the Foundation’s Trust & Safety team doing investigations about incidents occurring on English Wikipedia. I want to clarify the rationale for Trust & Safety doing investigations when requested and they meet the criteria for review.
Part of the Trust & Safety Team’s responsibility is upholding movement-wide standards based on the Terms of Use. We recognize that each of the hundreds of global communities under the Wikimedia umbrella have their own styles and their own behavioral expectations, but we also believe that there must be a certain minimum standard to those expectations. Sometimes, local communities find it difficult to meet that minimum standard despite their best efforts due to history, habit, dislike by some volunteers of the standard, or wider cultural resistance to these standards. However, it is important to keep in mind that even communities that are resistant to it or are making a good faith effort are expected to meet the minimum standards set in the Terms of Use. In cases where community influences or barriers interfere with the meeting of these minimum standards, the Foundation may step in to enforce the standards - even in situations where the local community dislikes or outright opposes those standards.
It is important that victims of hostilities like harassment have a safe place to make reports and that we uphold and respect their privacy when they do so. The Foundation is currently working with the community on a User Reporting System that would allow communities and the Foundation to cooperate in handling complaints like harassment, and we have every hope that that system will facilitate local, community handling of these issues. However, at the current time, no such system exists for victims to make reports privately without fear that their “case” will be forced to become public. Indeed, it is often true that a mere rumor that someone was the victim of harassment can lead to harassment of that person. Unfortunately, that has been proven the case here as some individuals have already made assumptions about the identities of the victims involved. Accordingly, the Foundation is currently the venue best equipped to handle these reports, as we are able, often required by laws or global policies, to investigate these situations in confidence and without revealing the identity of the victim. That is why we will not name or disclose the identities of the individuals involved in reporting incidents related to this Office Action.
There have been some concerns raised about the level of community experience and knowledge involved in Trust & Safety’s work. The Wikimedia Foundation’s Community Engagement Department, of which Trust & Safety is a part, supports contributors and organizations aligned with the Wikimedia Foundation mission. In order to conduct informed and contextualized investigations, safeguard the community at events, and support community governance, Trust & Safety has focused on building a team with a combination of deep Wikimedia movement experience and team members who have experience with Trust & Safety processes with other online communities. To better assess incidents, the team has people from diverse geographic, linguistic and cultural backgrounds. We have former ArbCom members, administrators, and functionaries, from English Wikipedia as well as other language communities, informing our decisions, and expertise from other organisations helping to build compassionate best practices. We have utilized all of this experience and expertise in determining how best to manage the reports of harassment and response from members of the community.
One of the recent changes to the Trust & Safety policy is the introduction of new options that include time-limited and partial (project-specific) bans to address serious concerns that are considered temporary or project-specific in nature. This change to policy is not a change of the team’s scope of cases taken. However, it does alter the way that sanctions are enforced and unintentionally introduced ambiguity about the ability of local communities to overrule office actions.
In acknowledgement of the confusion caused by the application of this newer type of ban, we will not be issuing sanctions against or desysopping those who edited the block or the sysop rights of those who edited the block to date. However, despite the ambiguity in its application, the ban continues to stand whether it is being technically enforced by a block or not. Should Fram edit English Wikipedia during the one-year period of their ban, the temporary partial ban of User:Fram will be enforced with a global ban (and accordingly a global lock). We must stress again that Office Actions, whether “technically” reversible or not, are not to be considered reversible by a local, or even the global, community, no matter the circumstances or community sentiment.
The occurrence of Office Actions at times is unavoidable, but it is not our intention to disrupt local communities any further than necessary. Here we failed on that score, caused disruption to your community, and we welcome feedback about how such disruption could be avoided in the future when the Foundation takes Office Actions, and ask that we all engage in a good faith discussion bearing in mind the legal and ethical restrictions placed on anyone within or outside of the Foundation engaging in reports of this nature.
In addition to asking for feedback about the trust and safety office actions in this incident, over the next year, the Foundation will be asking members of the Wikimedia movement to work with us on several initiatives that are designed to promote inclusivity by ensuring a healthier culture of discourse, and the safety of Wikimedia spaces. --Jan (WMF) (talk) 20:44, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Response to Statement from Jan Eissfeldt, Lead Manager of Trust & Safety
- There are several aspects of this I find troubling, but I respect that you did come forward and put your name to it. It was well-written and it does add some information, considerably more than the statements made by the role account. Enigmamsg 20:51, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- To quote A. E. Housman, "And since, my soul, we cannot fly / To Saturn nor to Mercury, / Keep we must, if keep we can, / These foreign laws of God and man." Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 20:55, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Really pathetic. Accusations of harassment are very serious. Please provide the diffs. This new type of star chamber judgment against editors is most unwelcome. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:59, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
we will not be issuing sanctions against or desysopping those who edited the block or the sysop rights of those who edited the block to date
– WHAT??? EEng 21:04, 13 June 2019 (UTC)- EEng, I don't read that as a pardon by any means – "we will not be issuing sanctions" doesn't mean ArbCom won't be doing so. – Juliancolton | Talk 21:24, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Do you really think ARBCOM will do anything? Sir Joseph (talk) 21:36, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- EEng, I don't read that as a pardon by any means – "we will not be issuing sanctions" doesn't mean ArbCom won't be doing so. – Juliancolton | Talk 21:24, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for coming here and making the statement. The next step should be indeed a constructive discussion outlining the boundaries more clearly, sharing responsibilities, and clarifying how communication can be improved, because, indeed, in this case the communication was a total disaster.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- And, specifically, I can live with the idea that T&S will enforce civility even when the communities are not prepared to accept it, but in this case it must be very clear whic level of civility is expected. Otherwise it turns into a minefield. In this case, I believe, though Fram has been banned, it is still not clear to them which red line exactly have they crossed. They are of the opinion that the "Fuck ArbCom" comment played a role, in which case dozens of users could be banned anytime. --Ymblanter (talk) 21:30, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- It is regrettable and avoidable that Wikipedia users have taken to onwiki and offwiki harassment of WMF staff, and in this context it is understandable to use the role account. This most recent statement also acknowledges community concerns more clearly than the previous ones. Even so, I suspect other community members will still struggle to understand (1) the necessity of the action taken against Fram in the first place, and (2) by what process of decision WMF will decide to issue sanctions in potentially controversial cases. I suppose we will not get more clarity on the former, but surely in the latter? --Jprg1966 (talk) 21:11, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- It is striking that Eissfeldt says that the unexpected blocking reflects "changes to the Trust & Safety team’s processes". Yet the link he gives by way of support/explanation of this presents a primary objective of
mak[ing] more transparent to the team’s stakeholders - communities, affiliates, Foundation staff, and partners - what kinds of complaints the team refers to community processes under current practice and which types it does handle.
This is plainly what has not been achieved, nor does there seem to have been any discussion with the community of the team's processes, its balances, or its outcomes. The community are stakeholders in this project too, and are right to insist on being treated as equal partners. Jheald (talk) 21:27, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- It is striking that Eissfeldt says that the unexpected blocking reflects "changes to the Trust & Safety team’s processes". Yet the link he gives by way of support/explanation of this presents a primary objective of
- Thank you for publishing this statement, and please do endeavour to keep the community informed as to how we can participate in improving the dialogue between ourselves and the Foundation. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:14, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- This was a good statement, and it addressed a lot of my own personal concerns. I also thank you for the apology that this caused disruption to the community. As a newer editor, I sometimes feel that the power hierarchy built here is intentionally built to shut certain people out. It's almost as if there is a shield of protection that exists for the powerusers, admins, and even established users which simply does not exist for me because I both new and (oftentimes) impulsive. They are a known quality, whereas I am not (nor am I as particularly helpful as they are). Early on, I was told by the users who care about my wellbeing that if I used our pre-existing reporting mechanisms that retaliation would almost be guaranteed. That isn't the system anyone in the community intended to have, but it is the one that best prevents disruption. I really don't have all the answers, but I'm glad that WMF at least wants to have this kind of conversation. I can't say I agree with how this has been handled up by the foundation up to this point, but if at least some good comes out of this then we'll at least have that.
[placeholder]–MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 21:14, 13 June 2019 (UTC) Replaced: 21:42, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- MJL, thanks for your thoughts on this. I think you expressed many of my main concerns better than I could have. I agree with everything in this comment. StudiesWorld (talk) 21:45, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- @StudiesWorld: [Thank you for the ping] I'm pretty sure that is the first time someone has ever told me that on wiki. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 22:05, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- MJL, thanks for your thoughts on this. I think you expressed many of my main concerns better than I could have. I agree with everything in this comment. StudiesWorld (talk) 21:45, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- While I appreciate the effort to make some kind of statement, I find this tremendously inadequate. Yes, protecting privacy and the general rights of the accusers is very important. But due process for the accused, in any fair system of justice, whether in a court system or not, comes part and parcel with the very notion of a fair adjudication. There has been *zero* effort made to outline what due process the accused can expect in these ex parte hearings and what rights *Fram* has to defend himself against serious charges. Not even the slightest lip service is given to the notion. And anyone for whom the concept of due process is either foreign or merely inconvenient has *zero* business being involved in this project. WMF exists to be the servant of the Wikimedia movement, not its master. It's not supposed to be a jobs program for those who want to cosplay as tin-pot dictators. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 21:17, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- What if the accused disclose the evidence, as occurred here, potentially leading to further harassment of those named in the evidence, whether or not they were involved in or even aware of the complaint? StudiesWorld (talk) 21:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Then the ban should have been escalated immediately. They did not do that, which has ultimately led to a Streisand effect with regards to the likely complainant. The downside to this is that this would have likely have instantly confirmed the complainant's identity. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 22:27, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- There are plenty of things that can be done to escalate in a situation like that. Like in every other hearing in every single context everywhere, ever. It's WMF's stance that is the gross outlier. People will figure it out and the accused certainly will be able to make some pretty good guesses; if a crime is severe enough for this penalty, it wouldn't be a complete surprise and if the crime isn't, it hasn't any business being taken out of ArbCom's hands. "Sorry, Mr. Hinckley, we can't tell you what president you're accused of shooting, because then you'll know!"CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 23:11, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- What if the accused disclose the evidence, as occurred here, potentially leading to further harassment of those named in the evidence, whether or not they were involved in or even aware of the complaint? StudiesWorld (talk) 21:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- My thanks too to Jan for posting what he has. I do have two questions (or points for discussion), though I appreciate Jan may not be able to engage in back-and-forth answering of the many questions people may have.
- My first question is this (if the ban does end up staying in place): how can Fram, who by virtue of being able to edit other Wikimedia projects is still a member of the Wikimedia movement, participate in discussions on en-Wikipedia relating to changes to the Wikimedia software and similar strategic proposals being made by the WMF? What I foresee, is that others will include his critiques even if they are made on different WMF projects. This is why project-limited bans can be difficult to enforce. For example, if Fram is participating in Meta and MediaWiki discussions on those topics and makes cogent points, will people be able to point to and quote his opinions in discussions here, without being accused of proxying for a banned user?
- The other question (a bit more difficult to address) is whether the Trust & Safety team can operate effectively if it loses, or has lost, the trust of a community it is policing? If enough people believe that you made the wrong decision here, they will not have trust in any of the decisions you make as a team until those trust issues are addressed.
- I suspect others will want the issues of local autonomy and allowing en-Wikipedia to police their own addressed, so will not say anything on that. Carcharoth (talk) 21:17, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 2) The Wikimedia Foundation did not accuse Pudeo, SchroCat or 1989 of proxying for a banned user when they copied Fram's comments from Commons. * Pppery * it has begun... 21:25, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- @JEissfeldt (WMF): - thank you for your well written message. But you still don't explain how someone is supposed to defend themselves against non-specific accusations under privacy conditions as strict as these - it end's up in a judge/jury situation, with the accuser getting to set their case, but not the accused. Nosebagbear (talk) 21:20, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- That's not a bug, Nosebagbear. It's a feature. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:24, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks. We are not done, but that's a good start. S Philbrick(Talk) 21:21, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- @JEissfeldt (WMF): You wrote:
"It is important that victims of hostilities like harassment have a safe place to make reports and that we uphold and respect their privacy when they do so."
There is a striking implication in that statement that Fram was banned for harassment, otherwise such a statement would be very out of place. Would you be so kind as to answer a couple of questions?- Was Fram banned for "hostilities like harassment", or harassment?
- If so, was public evidence used in your findings (content that can be found on enwiki pages, or in enwiki logs or revision history).
- I'm sure you realize that answering those questions cannot possibly reveal any other parties in the matter, nor would it disclose any private information. Thank you.- MrX 🖋 21:22, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- That we've been dignified with a substantive statement, in contrast with the boilerplate copy to which we've hitherto been subjected, and that some concessions have been made in earnest make this a not-insignificant step in the right direction. Hopefully the community can match that step with some introspection of our own. – Juliancolton | Talk 21:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Statements like this are why I consider T&S to be one of the most competent teams at the WMF. Thank you for acknowledging the confusion here. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:27, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Something strikes me as extremely odd about this. The claim being made is that (1) this block is based on harassment and (2) regardless of what you have said, the basic gist of it remains "everything is privileged". That has led Fram to fill the void, and while he is a biased source and there are things missing in his reply on Commons, you have done nothing in responce to this. I understand this would be counterproductive in some way - Upgrade to a glock, and you essentially confirm what Fram says; confirm it and breach people's privacy - but the way this was handled was such that T&S hasn't done anything at all in responce to this. The only reason these conspiracy theories (of which one of them may eventually be right, and it's looking increasingly likely this was used to "win" a long-running editorial dispute between two users who, frankly, aren't very well liked) have been promulgating is because T&S maintains that literally everything is privileged, dowm to the word "the". This is not only an asinine position to take, but Raystorm's statement emphatically did not help given she accused everyone defending Fram of sexism, which only serves to help confirm those theories.
The end result does not reflect well at all on the WMF or its Trust & Safety team. "More communication" is impossible if T&S's starting position is "everything is privileged", when I can think of a few things in this situation that would not be (that it's specifically for harassment, that Fram had been warned twice before, and WHY the ban was limited). At a minimum ArbCom should be told the sort of actyion being taken and (in broad strokes) why it is being taken, and while an arb has said that they were told vaguely this and it was provided afterwards in the meeting minutes, that arb (and others) evidently did not expect a ban. The communication has just been grossly mismanaged by T&S from the word go, and because of that T&S as aa whole no longer has the community's trust, as Risker points out so succinctly below. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 21:34, 13 June 2019 (UTC) - simply thx -jkb- (talk) 21:36, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I appreciate any effort to clarify and communicate, so thank you for that. But I cannot make sense of it, if I simultaneously believe everything in this statement and also believe everything that Fram has posted about what he says he was told of the reasons for the ban. If I believe that the comment Fram made about ArbCom was the immediate reason for the office action, then it just does not seem like a valid reason for the office action. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- It isn't; it's just the last straw. Fram has outright stated that they've gotten two warnings from T&S over the past year; the ArbCom comment was a third strike of sorts. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 21:39, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Then it isn't a valid last straw. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:43, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Jan E. was the man behind Superprotect. This has led to his de-sysop in the German Wikipedia. No, no, no trust in this man. A former german language Wikipedian admin... OMG --Informationswiedergutmachung (talk) 21:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for stepping up. For any future TS bans where you can't identify the accuser, it may make sense not to say it was for harassment.
- Halfway transparent houses are dangerous for a couple of reasons. 1) Online sleuths on platforms WMF don't control are liable to guess who the accuser was, and then take action against that person(s). So they can cause folk to suffer harassment that might be worse than any excessive scrutiny experienced on wiki. 2) It can be unfair to the accused. I've gone up against Fram several times over the years to defend the outstanding inclusionists he used to attack, so I think I know them quite well. I can see why their actions might validly appear to be harassment, but it always seemned they were in fact just trying to protect the encyclopaedia from what in Fram's misguided but sincere opinion were excessive mistake makers. So it's annoying to see Fram (effectively) labelled a harasser by a star chamber.
- It's great you're going to step up efforts to promote inclusionism. I hope it's appreciated this is a task that may need great tact if you are to avoid alienating the volunteer enforcement wing of the community, who in several ways do a better job than the very expensive and hard to manage paid moderators used by the other large platforms. FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:42, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Just for information: Jan was the one who declared the open war of the WMF against the communities together with Eric Möller in the MV-disaster. He was the one who worked with extreme hostility against the deWP. I don't have the faintest idea ,how such a completely disgraced person in regard of community interaction could have become head of trust and safety, he is the very opposite of trustworthy from the community perspective. Grüße vom Sänger ♫ (talk) 21:44, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- @JEissfeldt (WMF): Thank you for your statement, Jan. Despite what I'm about to write, I do appreciate you taking the time to make it. First I want to welcome this:
"We will improve our coordination with community-elected bodies like ArbCom across the movement when carrying out our duties."
However, I have grave concerns about a couple of the statements you make, namely:"the reasons that Trust & Safety cases will not be discussed in public and often not even privately with members of the Wikimedia movement who sign Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDAs) ... This means that even in cases where users have signed a community NDA, our legal obligations may not allow us to share information given to us."
This is the part that's unacceptable to the community. It is a mistake to think that your staff are going to be any more capable of preserving privacy than the elected representatives of our community who are bound to the same level of confidentiality. If you have evidence of ArbCom failing to meet their obligations on that front, then say so. There's no need for chapter and verse, but we deserve to be informed if T&S no longer has faith in ArbCom's ability to perform its mandate. Secondly,"In cases where community influences or barriers interfere with the meeting of these minimum standards, the Foundation may step in to enforce the standards - even in situations where the local community dislikes or outright opposes those standards.
You need to tell us plainly exactly what minimum standards the English Wikipedia community fell short of in this case. You are wrong to suggest that the English Wikipedia community dislikes or opposes any of the standards expressed in TOU, and I hope you'll either justify it or retract that slur. In fact we not only have policies that make clear our support for the standards you're so keen on, but also policies and precedents that show how we deal with breaches of those standards. In conclusion, I for one, am not willing to stand by and see T&S arbitrarily impose a parallel, yet unaccountable, scheme of dispute resolution on the English Wikipedia. If you want to meet your remit and supply support for editors who don't feel able to use our dispute resolution procedures themselves, then bring a case on their behalf and allow the community's elected ArbCom to decide the case. Otherwise you need to consider why the English Wikipedia should not simply abandon its present procedures, disband ArbCom and refer all of the disputes to T&S. --RexxS (talk) 21:45, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- RexxS. My reading of the statement regarding not communicating with NDA users was that it meant that the WMF was under the impression that they had legal obligations to keep some complaints internal. If that is the case, then there would be no way for them to effectively handle these complaints without allowing some internal proceedings. I think that this could be a result of an interpretation of GDPR, based off of discussion higher on this page. StudiesWorld (talk) 21:49, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- ARBCOM doesn't decide on cases unless DR or ANI fails first and I for one would never go to ANI on a conduct or bullying issue. Sir Joseph (talk) 21:51, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- That is simply not true, not in cases involving privacy. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:14, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Right, but not everyone who may be the victim of harassment is the victim of private harassment. I think that if anything is going to come of this, I hope that, at the very least, ArbCom changes their procedures to allow private hearings of on-wiki evidence. StudiesWorld (talk) 09:27, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- I was going to say the same thing as Rexx about the "minimum standards", but he did it better than I would have. We have no idea how the community is 'falling short' of Terms of Service, so we are all literally in the same boat as Fram! I also take umbrage at
SuSa will create a complaint processing map of its and related community workflows to make more transparent to the team’s stakeholders - communities, affiliates, Foundation staff, and partners - what kinds of complaints the team refers to community processes under current practice and which types it does handle. The program will reduce the risk of double work on the same issues from staff and volunteer functionaries...
To me this is confirming what I suspected - the Trust and Safety goal is to supplant administrators on anything it cares about - and any powers they retain is merely current practice, a historical accident. T&S will super-protect, super-delete, super-ban, super-bias anything it wants any way it wants, and then the community is free to ban anybody else because who really cares. And I expect that like any other social media company, no one will really know why or what they will go after. Wnt (talk) 22:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- That is simply not true, not in cases involving privacy. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:14, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I understand that there are going to be times that a final authority will need to exercise some drastic action. However, until now, that has been limited to things that are so serious as to require an indefinite global ban, and I am unaware of any global ban that has seen a wider community challenge it because of that understanding that the tool would only be used for such extremely serious activities (child protection and such things). I am still at a loss as to how a user can have a time-limited ban for behavior and not be informed as to exactly what behavior is at issue. The Foundation is seemingly deciding to both impose on this community a standard on civility that it has repeatedly rejected and also failing to actually define that standard. You are effectively saying to any user dealt in this way that their conduct is lacking, but you cannot tell them what that conduct was, but be sure not to repeat that conduct when they are allowed back despite not knowing what the actual conduct in question is. The Trial is not supposed to be an instruction manual. At the end of the day, this is private property, and you may do whatever you wish to do with that property. You can deny access and ban someone, you can impose access and require us to allow somebody to edit. But if you want us to know what is expected of us then you need to explicitly say what that is. nableezy - 21:55, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- @JEissfeldt (WMF): when you say
"In acknowledgement of the confusion caused by the application of this newer type of ban, we will not be issuing sanctions against or desysopping those who edited the block or the sysop rights of those who edited the block to date"
, is that an acknowledgement that it was a bad idea to desysop User:Floquenbeam? Do you regret not re-sysopping him before User:WJBscribe stepped in and did it, less than 24 hours ago? Bishonen | talk 21:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC). - The key element to me is "not to be considered reversible by a local, or even the global, community, no matter the circumstances or community sentiment" - or, in other words, the community be buggered, T&S are the editorial controllers of Wikipedia and nothing you say or do can change that. Fucking disgusting. DuncanHill (talk) 22:02, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I like the polite fuck off statement but it solves nothing. There is no escalating blocks or indeed any sort of system to appeal or otherwise moderate it. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 22:20, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- This bothers me:
While these changes were the result of the changes to the Trust & Safety team’s processes, and are not an expansion of the team’s scope
. You have a contentious claim asserted as a fact. You have a link that looks like it might be a supporting source, but doesn't actually support the rebuttal. In an article I'd tag that with a {{cn}}. Guettarda (talk) 22:28, 13 June 2019 (UTC) - Fire Jan Eissfeldt and his whole T&S-Team. --Informationswiedergutmachung (talk) 22:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- JEissfeldt (WMF), while I appreciate you at least being willing to put your name on this statement, it is still more of the same. I will be posting a response as to why shortly, point by point to what you said, but in short: The WMF is not a "higher authority" than the English Wikipedia community, and may not overrule it, any more than we could walk into the San Francisco offices, point to an employee, say "You're fired", and expect that to have any effect. WMF is a separate body, but it is not "higher" than the English Wikipedia community. We don't can your employees, you don't can our editors or admins. You also do not overrule or bypass our editorial or community processes. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:49, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Jan, assuming you're taking the time to read all of these comments: if the current NDA does not facilitate communication of matters like this between its signatories and the WMF, is Trust & Safety interested in working with WMF Legal to replace it with an agreement which is compatible with such communication? Or is it your position that this is either impossible, or not worth the time? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 22:52, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I appreciate the statement, Jan, but I continue to have significant and severe questions and concern about both the conduct of the Office, of which you are a member; and the Trust and Safety team, of which you head as Lead Manager. I'm going to be frank: I join the sentiments of DuncanHill and Nableezy completely and fully. Now, I originally wanted to discuss how WP:IRL is a fact; but that has been supplanted by another matter: the nature of the ban itself. You note, Jan, in your statement, that these time- and project-limited bans are for "serious concerns that are considered temporary or project-specific in nature". I'm afraid I don't understand how the actions, statements, and behaviors of Fram in any way qualify or otherwise comport with the statement, more or less, of when such bans are to be used; how, exactly, is this situation time-limited? Clarification, both in general and regarding the specifics of this case, would be appreciated. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 23:00, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- @JEissfeldt (WMF): Thank you for your statement, however, I would dispute "While these changes were the result of the changes to the Trust & Safety team’s processes, and are not an expansion of the team’s scope..." If the manner in which the sanctions were levied against Fram is an example of how they are intended to work, then what has happened is not merely an "change to the processes", it is a usurpation of community rights which is indeed an expansion of T&S's scope, and an extremely unwarranted one at that. That you cannot see this is a significant part of the problem here, and the actual core of the controversy, not whether the sanctions were justified, but that T&S took upon itself a right which is the community's.Further, you have said nothing about whether the sanctions were influenced by pressure from the WMF chair, who is, apparently, a personal friend of the complainant. This, if true, is a matter of institutional corruption, and must be dealt with as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:03, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- If it was, they wouldn't dare confirm it so as to protect the complainant. But Raystorm's accusing everybody defending Fram of sexism strongly hints that it is, and I don't think Raystorm realised that was how such an accusation would be received. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 23:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Exactly, Raystorm's playing of the gender/harrasment card simply made it much more probable that she brought implicit or explicit pressure to bear, otherwise there would be no reason to respond in the manner she did. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:23, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @JEissfeldt (WMF): I am concerned about the basis for the ban and suspicion of lack of impartiality behind it. I would only be satisified if the uncensored reasons were shared with another independent body (presumably the arbitration committee or ombudsperson) to review and conclude the basis of the ban was justified or otherwise. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:25, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- I find the statement from Jan Eissfeldt completely unsatisfactory. Fram has said all he was banned for is on wiki (ie, no email, no personal contacts, etc). Many of us have looked hard at Fram's contributions, and while I have found some which could, say, merit sanctions over language etc, nothing merit the draconian punishment from WMF. My conclusion is that WMF has punished its possible most ardent critic. If you think that will bring WMF any credit: you are wrong. I suspect most Wikipedians find the action of WMF totally despicable, Huldra (talk) 23:32, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- First, thanks to Mr. Eissfeldt for stepping up and communicating. I can appreciate the need for discretion, but considering this office action has the community deeply concerned about the WMF's commitment to transparency, the previous statements from WMFOffice were anything but helpful. When a significant number of volunteers have serious concerns, it was disappointing (if not entirely surprising) to see the Foundation answer with responses that were impersonal, opaque, and bureaucratic. As I stated previously, this attitude goes against Wikipedia's spirit of free participation and mutual respect. It's my sincere hope this will serve as an opportunity for growth, both for WMF and its staff, and our community at large.
- I expect after the board meets tomorrow, there will be further dialogue, and hopefully a little more openness where warranted. For now, in the interest of drawing the right conclusions and focusing our energy toward productive ends, we can reasonably infer a few things from Mr. Eissfeldt's statement:
- Specifics regarding the case against Fram cannot be made public (or shared with anyone outside WMF) as a requirement of the Privacy Policy, and/or other contractual or legal obligations to the complainant
- Fram was banned for violating the harassment clause of the Wikimedia Terms of Use, but not necessarily our harassment policy
- WMF considers WP:HARASS inadequate in covering violations of the ToU, or else it views ArbCom as incapable of adequately enforcing WP:HARASS (or both)
- We are not going to get details about who accused Fram of what, ever. Nor would we if this had gone to ArbCom, nor should we in a serious case of harassment. All we can hope is that the board will review it, and if they uphold it, give us a sense of why it was justified. IMHO, a year ban seems like a lot, even for one as prickly as Fram, but I don't know what happened.
- I think we can all agree this was needlessly disruptive for a variety of reasons. The core of the issue though, is that the ToU (as interpreted by WMF) don't align with WP:HARASS (as interpreted by ArbCom/the community). We can do very little to change the ToU or the WMF (not that it's stopped us trying), but this would be an opportune time to review our harassment policy and how it's enforced. We may not think there's any problem, but as long as the WMF disagrees, this sort of thing is bound to keep happening. With any luck, we will receive some clarification on how exactly harassment is defined, vis-a-vis the ToU, and what ArbCom would need to do to better enforce it, thus avoiding the need for office action in the first place. —Rutebega (talk) 23:36, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- That is a conversation I am more than happy to share, but WMF thus far have not told us where it is deficient and are not likely to absent dropping their stance here (and this is the sort of thing that should not be subject to privilege; we can't fix it if we don't know where the flaws in the policy are in the first place). —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 00:01, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the response Jan, it was more informative than what we've received before. But I still do not believe that trust between the community and T&S can be restored until more transparency is provided into the process. In particular:
- Will specific details of the case be made known to WMF board members?
- Is any portion of the information being withheld for the sole purpose of protecting the Fram's privacy (i.e. as opposed to protecting the privacy of all parties involved)? If so, and if Fram were to waive their right to privacy in that regard, would you be willing to publish it? (I ask this because he has made the claim that all the evidence of his alleged misconduct exists on-wiki, and additionally that he is happy for the contents of the emails to be shared.)
- Fram indicates that the WMF office told him that complaints were lodged against him leading up to the April 2018 warning. Were there further complaints between April 2018 and March 2019? between March 2019 and the ban? Or has his case basically always been open since April 2018, with T&S staff proactively monitoring his actions to see if he has made any further violations? Basically I want to know in general terms what instigated the series of internal WMF actions that led to this ban. If you believe that answering this would violate Fram's privacy, see #2. If you believe that answering this would violate the privacy of anyone else or you cannot answer this question for any other reason, please give us an explanation which is not buried in legalese, because I honestly don't see how disclosing the existence of a complaint can violate anyone's privacy (especially given that such disclosure was given to Fram in the April 2018 email).
- If the community's processes (including ArbCom) are insufficient at the present moment to deal with harassment/incivility issues, do you envision a future in which every such case, with the exception of anything with legal/child protection/etc. implications, can be referred back to the community or ArbCom? If so, what needs to change in the community procedures to allow that to transpire? Or do you believe that there will always be cases (excluding the obvious exceptions) where the T&S will take action without consulting the community, no matter how scrupulously it self-regulates? -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:08, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- With respect to 3, knowing that X complaint was received at Y time can lead to exposing the person who filed it. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 00:13, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not for such a broad period of time, when Fram probably butted heads with dozens of people. Anyways, regarding #3 I mostly care about the general procedure: does T&S only investigate on a new complaint, or does it follow up and keep tabs on the people it has warned indefinitely? -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:29, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @JEissfeldt (WMF): are Office bans which are not required for legal compliance reasons, such as bans with blocks for harassment and incivility, appealable to Jimbo Wales?[23] EllenCT (talk) 00:19, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @JEissfeldt (WMF): Can you please do something about azwiki? (or some of the other broken Wikipedias like Georgian, Croatian)? In cases where community influences or barriers interfere with the meeting of these minimum standards, the Foundation may step in to enforce the standards - even in situations where the local community dislikes or outright opposes those standards. I don't understand why there is so much focus here and not on other wikis that are promoting genocide denial or other POV editing and copyvios. --Rschen7754 00:54, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Is there much focus here? I thought one of the key reasons this blew up is because it's literally the first time they've really intervened in this way on en. Okay there is some private stuff that happened before, but I'm not seeing much evidence of a lot of focus here. All I'm seeing is evidence they intervened in one specific instance against one individual. Since then it blew up, and understandably for good reason the WMF feels they have to see this through and therefore there is a lot of focus on it at the moment, but that doesn't demonstrate a lot of focus on en.
Of course for better or worse en is the largest wikipedia by far, and the one with the most focus of the world by far. I don't think it's a good thing, and maybe the WMF haven't helped as much as they can, but I do think there's also not much they can do about the general lack of care anyone else has about the other wikipedias and it does mean there's always going to be a divide between dealing with stuff which affects their major by far service, and the more minor ones especially the very minor ones. As I said before, that doesn't mean they should ignore problems in the minor ones but everything else being equal the problems in the more minor ones will get far less attention.
From what I've read, the problems at az are very serious, way more serious than whatever Fram did although that also doesn't mean that they should have ignored the Fram situation. More importantly, I've seen no real evidence they have been ignoring the az.wikipedia problems. From what I read, it was only about 22 May that people began to really bug them about it. (Although it is possible they were told in private before.)
We know from their previous statements it often takes about 4 weeks to deal with stuff which from what I've seen of large organisations isn't exactly surprising. And that's with simple cases involving a small number of individuals and concerns over one of them in particular, based on stuff in English, a language I think everyone who works for the WMF speaks. The az stuff seems to be fairly complicated and while some stuff may seem clear cut on the outside, in the interest of fairness as well as ensuring they take all the necessary action, even if it were all in English it will likely take months to deal with. It being in Azerbaijani greatly compounds the problems.
Of course you don't have to resolve it all in one go, and I'm hoping that the WMF will start to issue bans sometime soon and also ensure that extremely offensive article names are not allowed. But even in the best case, 2 months from when they were notified (22 May) seems reasonable. While the copyvio stuff is one thing, the denial of the Armenian genocide is quite another. It's a very serious matter that urgently needs to be dealt with but at the same time if you're going to ban people for denying the Armenian genocide, even if you're not going to say it's the reason you need to take great care in your evidence and how you go about it. The fact that almost no one will notice, probably receiving not even 1/100 of the attention of the outside world as this case which as far as I know has still largely passed the world by, not withstanding.
And considering this fallout, and the size of the WMF means this is likely to be diverting significant resources, I would imagine a further delay of 2-3 weeks. To be clear, I'm not saying this is anyone's fault (although I stick with my belief the WMF made mistakes here), simply that it's the nature of the beast that the fall out from this means it's likely diverting most of their attention and they can't just ignore it telling us 'sorry we'll deal with how much you hate us once we're done with Az, in the mean time Fram stays banned'. And for so many reasons, they also can't say 'well we still think we made the right decision here but it blew up and it's taking too much time from dealing with az so we'll overturn the ban for now and re-implement it later when we have time to deal with you'.
- I have no idea whather Fram's actions were sancionable or not, and that is in large part beside the point. What is at issue here is a basic principle of natural justice, the accused should be given the right to face their accuser(s) and to defend themselves. This by T&S's own admission has not been allowed to occur. That T&S has explicitly stated that there is no appeal in this instance only adds fuel to the fire. Furthermore, operating a star chamber to institute and oversee such sanctions is not only reprehensible, but is exactly the wrong way to instill confidence in a volutneer organisation over which WMF has chosen for itself to exert some sort of supreme executive power. The tone deafness exhibited here is simply astonishing. At the very least, T&S need to give all the information relating to this action to a trusted, uninvolved and independent third party, I suggest ARBCOM. If that was done and the third party upon consideration of all the circumstances considered that the block and de-sysop of Fram be upheld, then so be it. Otherwise the block and de-sysop and any consequent actions taken against other here such as Floq and Bish, should be overturned and any related entries on their block logs be expunged. I'm not holding my breath, however. I have completely lost faith in WMF to be a reasonable actor with any kind of oversight of the project/ - Nick Thorne talk 01:34, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- The head of T&S is a former admin desysoped on his home wiki? Unreal. Capeo (talk) 02:11, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- To be fair, dewiki did a lot of things after superprotect that I am not sure were the "right" things to do. --Rschen7754 04:07, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- It does, however, still raise some eyebrows and result in some questions as to how it came to be. In particular, what the process that resulted in it happening ended up being and if anyone thought to ask how this might look if it came up in the future--regardless of whether or not dewiki did the right thing, it's still a pretty questionable optic for the WMF to have. rdfox 76 (talk) 04:12, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- To give some clarification: The process of desysop in de.wp is quite different than in en.wp. Every sysop in de.wp is open to recall. Whoever was responsible for the development of Superprotect, Jan was the one who used it first (with his WMF-account) and the reaction were immediately the 25 votes necessary for a re-election of his private sysop-account, that surely would have no chance in the heated situation, so the desysop was automatically issued after 30 days and does not speak for any wrong-doing in the de.wp besides what he was ordered from the WMF. But maybe the experience is in the back of his mind, when he now wants to protect the T&S-team members from being hold personal accountable for WMF actions. --Magiers (talk) 14:42, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- My comment wasn't in regards to how that all went down or who was in the right or in the wrong. It doesn't matter. It was in the regards to the fact that no competent organization would even risk the impression of bias or COI on the part of employees handling sensitive issues like child protection, threats of harm, stalking, anything that like that. That should be a salaried team of outside hires, professionals in their fields, not contractors from within the editing community. Distance from the community and rock solid impartiality are required for such posts. Familiarity with community norms is not required to detect cases of child grooming or to deal with threats of harm or off-wiki stalking. If the WMF wants some kind of civility enforcement team hired from within the community then fine, do that. I think it's an awful idea, but whatever. Capeo (talk) 15:55, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- To give some clarification: The process of desysop in de.wp is quite different than in en.wp. Every sysop in de.wp is open to recall. Whoever was responsible for the development of Superprotect, Jan was the one who used it first (with his WMF-account) and the reaction were immediately the 25 votes necessary for a re-election of his private sysop-account, that surely would have no chance in the heated situation, so the desysop was automatically issued after 30 days and does not speak for any wrong-doing in the de.wp besides what he was ordered from the WMF. But maybe the experience is in the back of his mind, when he now wants to protect the T&S-team members from being hold personal accountable for WMF actions. --Magiers (talk) 14:42, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- It does, however, still raise some eyebrows and result in some questions as to how it came to be. In particular, what the process that resulted in it happening ended up being and if anyone thought to ask how this might look if it came up in the future--regardless of whether or not dewiki did the right thing, it's still a pretty questionable optic for the WMF to have. rdfox 76 (talk) 04:12, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- To be fair, dewiki did a lot of things after superprotect that I am not sure were the "right" things to do. --Rschen7754 04:07, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Jan: Thank you for your comments. m:Trust and Safety: "As a part of the Foundation’s commitment to respect community autonomy, the Trust & Safety team does not handle general community or community-member disputes that may be addressed through community processes, nor does it serve as an appeal venue for community-made policies and decisions". As I see, you have gone beyond your jurisdiction. You not only intervened in ordinary internal conflict, you went against the will of the community on it. But a few people cannot replace the whole community. English Wikipedia has the most powerful community, ways to resolve conflicts and privacy practices. You must cancel your decision immediately. We must to stop work and reform the Wikimedia Foundation Trust & Safety team. At least, we need to publicly discuss how it works, limits of its competence, discuss how to interact with local communities, introduce direct elections to this team from each language (cultural) community. Yea, Wikimedia is a multicultural movement and it is movement, not a private organization. --sasha (krassotkin) 07:26, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- FYI: Schiste, Pundit, Doc James, Jimbo Wales, Raystorm, NTymkiv (WMF) (antanana). --sasha (krassotkin) 07:47, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- I am in ongoing discussions with Jan, and I am finding him open to looking for ways forward. There are aspects of this communication that I find troubling, and it's related to concerns I have already raised with Jan regarding the Foundation speaking to the community rather than with the community. The two main ways forward that we are discussing is A) Having an interface on Wikipedia for the community and the Foundation similar to the 'Crats noticeboard and the ArbCom noticeboard. A place here on this project where we can communicate directly, and where can discuss suggestions collectively. And B) A new system for dealing with civility and harassment issues. I have suggested to Jan that whatever system it is, it needs to come out of open discussions here between the Foundation and the community. It cannot be something imposed on the community by the Foundation. I have suggested a board with members from the community that are trusted by both the community and the Foundation, working alongside members of the Foundation to hear complaints of civility and harassment. Any sanctions are to be notified via the proposed WMF Noticeboard. Sanctions for harassment to appealed to the Foundation legal dept. Sanctions for civility to be appealed to ArbCom. Members of the Civility/Harassment Board should not also be members of ArbCom to ensure impartially in the appeals process. SilkTork (talk) 09:58, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- A) seems like an excellent idea, and would save a great deal of headaches. I'm still chewing on B), but I'm not at all happy with it, and I'd refer you to SeraphimBlade's excellent commentary below for why a large section of the community will feel that way. In particular, the WMF has no business in garden-variety harassment or civility enforcement, and sticking their nose in it will not be popular. Tazerdadog (talk) 10:13, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- The suggestion of a Civility/Harassment Board is one idea. A starting point for discussion if you like. My main point is that we need to find a solution to civility/harassment issues together not - as at the moment - separately. I also think it very important that we start to break down the barriers between the community and the Foundation. The more active shared working together we do the better. At the moment the Foundation communicates snippets of information to ArbCom, but rarely actually consults. This situation is rather frustrating. In the present circumstance where the Foundation informed ArbCom that it had concerns regarding Fram, and then blocked Fram, ArbCom get caught up in an impossible situation. The Committee were informed, but could do nothing with the information. And then when Fram is banned, the Committee are asked by the community about our involvement, and the Committee struggle to articulate clearly what is known. I suppose, by default, ArbCom agreed with and are complicit in the ban by not formally protesting the proposal. But the actual proposal came as part of a wider discussion of other matters during a phone call to one Arb, and it came at a time when the Committee were busy with other matters, and were understaffed. And we were arguing about being understaffed! Anyway. a fuller consultation about the situation, such as: "We have received complaints about harassment and incivility by Fram. We are considering banning him from en.wiki for a year. What are your thoughts on this?" would have been, for me, a much more useful and collegial approach. More consultation, and less diktats would be a good way forward. As I said to Jan: "Work with the community and the community will work with you. Work apart from the community, and there will always be a distance, a suspicion, and a certain degree of resentment resulting in push back against unpopular decisions." For the avoidance of doubt, any communications I make while inactive from the Committee are entirely my own. I am not sure yet if I will be returning to the Committee.
I may join the list of those willing to unblock Fram. Not because I support Fram or wish to defend his hostile manner of engaging those he disagrees with, but because I feel that the Foundation have got this wrong, and bad things happen when good people do nothing. But it wouldn't be appropriate for me to do that as a member of the Committee, so if I did that I would resign from the Committee and resign CU and OS as well.(Sorry, just re-read Jan's post. No need for this as it appears the Foundation will not be reapplying the block). SilkTork (talk) 11:02, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- The suggestion of a Civility/Harassment Board is one idea. A starting point for discussion if you like. My main point is that we need to find a solution to civility/harassment issues together not - as at the moment - separately. I also think it very important that we start to break down the barriers between the community and the Foundation. The more active shared working together we do the better. At the moment the Foundation communicates snippets of information to ArbCom, but rarely actually consults. This situation is rather frustrating. In the present circumstance where the Foundation informed ArbCom that it had concerns regarding Fram, and then blocked Fram, ArbCom get caught up in an impossible situation. The Committee were informed, but could do nothing with the information. And then when Fram is banned, the Committee are asked by the community about our involvement, and the Committee struggle to articulate clearly what is known. I suppose, by default, ArbCom agreed with and are complicit in the ban by not formally protesting the proposal. But the actual proposal came as part of a wider discussion of other matters during a phone call to one Arb, and it came at a time when the Committee were busy with other matters, and were understaffed. And we were arguing about being understaffed! Anyway. a fuller consultation about the situation, such as: "We have received complaints about harassment and incivility by Fram. We are considering banning him from en.wiki for a year. What are your thoughts on this?" would have been, for me, a much more useful and collegial approach. More consultation, and less diktats would be a good way forward. As I said to Jan: "Work with the community and the community will work with you. Work apart from the community, and there will always be a distance, a suspicion, and a certain degree of resentment resulting in push back against unpopular decisions." For the avoidance of doubt, any communications I make while inactive from the Committee are entirely my own. I am not sure yet if I will be returning to the Committee.
- Excellent. Thanks SilkTork both for your steps and for updating the proles. One of the most egregious problems with the currently imposed situation is that this cannot be appealed (even in camera). I understand why a full SanFranBan (Foundation wide, all encompassing, for paedos, etc) does not have one, but for the temporary blocks like this must be able to be discussed and appealed against by those blocked - it goes against all forms of justice I can think of for someone to be punished without a full explanation, in which they are not allowed to put forward arguments in defence and then are forbidden to appeal against overly harsh treatment. - SchroCat (talk) 10:44, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) @SilkTork: I'm really pleased to hear that a member of ArbCom is talking directly with Jan and exploring ways of better cooperation in future. That has to be the best outcome we can hope for. It seems to me that the current issues have exposed a genuine gap in our dispute resolution procedures: that of where an editor feels harassed or bullied or victimised by another editor, especially one with a high profile in the community. Regardless of whether such feelings have any genuine basis, there exists the problem that an editor in that position will find it difficult to commence dispute resolution because of the fear of retribution in the context of our very transparent procedures. We do need some means of support for editors in that situation. However, I remain convinced that although T&S can offer real help (as is their remit) in supporting editors faced with those problems, I believe it is a mistake for T&S to take on the roles of investigator, judge, jury and executioner in those sort of cases. They will clearly be far more empathetic with the complainant, simply because he or she is the one they have worked most closely with. To then use Office action as the means of enforcing their decision in such cases is almost guaranteed to produce a strong reaction from the community, regardless of the propriety of the action. To Tazerdadog, I'd say that T&S actually has the opportunity to help bridge a gap in our systems as a partner with the community (or its representatives), rather than trying to be a replacement for them. --RexxS (talk) 10:55, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Excellent. Thanks SilkTork both for your steps and for updating the proles. One of the most egregious problems with the currently imposed situation is that this cannot be appealed (even in camera). I understand why a full SanFranBan (Foundation wide, all encompassing, for paedos, etc) does not have one, but for the temporary blocks like this must be able to be discussed and appealed against by those blocked - it goes against all forms of justice I can think of for someone to be punished without a full explanation, in which they are not allowed to put forward arguments in defence and then are forbidden to appeal against overly harsh treatment. - SchroCat (talk) 10:44, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- SilkTork, it's nice that Jan's working on this, but if he wants to work with the community, he needs to work with it, not backdoor with you. Don't get me wrong, I've had my differences with you, but I do trust you in general. But ultimately, if there's to be a community solution, the community must be involved. That must start with WMF backing off from its position that it holds the authority to enforce bans over the consensus of the editor community, and it must start with discussion of this issue by him on the wiki, not via a back channel. Opaque back channeling caused this blowup to start with, and it certainly won't fix it. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:14, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- To be absolutely clear. I am not making back door deals. In our email exchange Jan felt that we had different points of agreement on the moment the Foundation could get involved in harassment complaints, and asked me where I felt that moment should be. My response was: "As for where a line should be drawn where if crossed the Foundation should step in. That should be decided in an open discussion with the community. The community have evolved good rules and procedures through open discussion which gains consensus. And the community upholds very strongly the principle of consensus. If the community is involved in discussions, the community buys into any procedures and rules that are agreed. And the community would then back those rules and help enforce them. If the Foundation creates rules in private discussions, and then informs the community of these rules, there is resentment and a certain degree of push back. Work with the community and the community will work with you. Work apart from the community, and there will always be a distance, a suspicion, and a certain degree of resentment resulting in push back against unpopular decisions." I do not wish to speak for the community - my ideal is that the community and the Foundation speak for each other and do so together. SilkTork (talk) 11:26, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- "I am not making back door deals ... I do not wish to speak for the community", that's a relief to hear, though given your elected role, it's unfortunate that you are in a position where you have to make these statements. Hopefully that means you have not and will not be having any undocumented quasi-official discussions or secret emails, but Arbcom will be properly and officially represented in recorded discussions that not just the current elected Arbcom members will be able to review, but future elected Arbcom members will be able to reference, including all emails with the WMF. If you mean something else, then now would be a jolly good time to spell out what exactly what you are doing and who you represent. --Fæ (talk) 11:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Fae, I do not think there is a reason to believe SilkTork does not have the community's interests at heart, and I think the message he describes sending to Jan is absolutely correct. I know it's hard to presume good faith in instances like this, but I believe we should here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:56, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Plenty of good faith, but I have lots of experience with different Arbcom members, both very good and very bad experiences. Arbcom members are elected officials carrying the trust of our community. It is not adequate to have secret conversations while still wearing those hats and later on say "oh, I was only writing in a private capacity, I cannot say anything about what was said or agreed, even for other Arbcom members to review." What we lack here is leaderships on transparency and good governance, you don't fix that by starting yet more secret "unofficial" conversations. There are never good reasons to choose to avoid good practices. --Fæ (talk) 13:06, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- We've had good and bad people and good and bad editors serve as arbitrators and we've had effective and ineffective arbitrators. However, it strikes me as absurd that any Wikipedian, including the ones who've most explicitly been entrusted by the widest number of people in the community, cannot speak with any (willing) WMF staffer in an individual capacity about Wikipedia matters. SilkTork seems to have shown that they're trustworthy by reporting back what they've said. So far so good in my book. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 13:46, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Plenty of good faith, but I have lots of experience with different Arbcom members, both very good and very bad experiences. Arbcom members are elected officials carrying the trust of our community. It is not adequate to have secret conversations while still wearing those hats and later on say "oh, I was only writing in a private capacity, I cannot say anything about what was said or agreed, even for other Arbcom members to review." What we lack here is leaderships on transparency and good governance, you don't fix that by starting yet more secret "unofficial" conversations. There are never good reasons to choose to avoid good practices. --Fæ (talk) 13:06, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Fae, I do not think there is a reason to believe SilkTork does not have the community's interests at heart, and I think the message he describes sending to Jan is absolutely correct. I know it's hard to presume good faith in instances like this, but I believe we should here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:56, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- "I am not making back door deals ... I do not wish to speak for the community", that's a relief to hear, though given your elected role, it's unfortunate that you are in a position where you have to make these statements. Hopefully that means you have not and will not be having any undocumented quasi-official discussions or secret emails, but Arbcom will be properly and officially represented in recorded discussions that not just the current elected Arbcom members will be able to review, but future elected Arbcom members will be able to reference, including all emails with the WMF. If you mean something else, then now would be a jolly good time to spell out what exactly what you are doing and who you represent. --Fæ (talk) 11:38, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- To be absolutely clear. I am not making back door deals. In our email exchange Jan felt that we had different points of agreement on the moment the Foundation could get involved in harassment complaints, and asked me where I felt that moment should be. My response was: "As for where a line should be drawn where if crossed the Foundation should step in. That should be decided in an open discussion with the community. The community have evolved good rules and procedures through open discussion which gains consensus. And the community upholds very strongly the principle of consensus. If the community is involved in discussions, the community buys into any procedures and rules that are agreed. And the community would then back those rules and help enforce them. If the Foundation creates rules in private discussions, and then informs the community of these rules, there is resentment and a certain degree of push back. Work with the community and the community will work with you. Work apart from the community, and there will always be a distance, a suspicion, and a certain degree of resentment resulting in push back against unpopular decisions." I do not wish to speak for the community - my ideal is that the community and the Foundation speak for each other and do so together. SilkTork (talk) 11:26, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- If I understand SilkTork correctly, members of the ArbCom have more information about this banning than will ever be released to the rest of our community, hopefully enough to form an opinion on it. If so, I'd find helpful if the ArbCom make a simple statement if they concur, dissent, or decline to comment on the grounds of T&S's ban of Fram. (In other words agree, disagree, or abstain from stating if Fram did something wrong.) And should a case be presented in the future where for whatever reason none of the facts can be made public, the ArbCom should be given the opportunity to make a statement to the same effect. -- llywrch (talk) 16:36, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Stewards did have a similar conversation with WMF during superprotect, formally and informally. While I understand the concerns about backroom deals, I think it can be helpful for WMF to have a conversation with someone without having to deal with the walls of text on this page and who they know won't personally attack them. --Rschen7754 18:15, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- For clarity, the information ArbCom had was minimal, along the lines of "concerns raised regarding Fram, looking into it" and "considering ban, looking into it", but no details (not who raised the concerns or what they were concerned about), and no timescale for when a ban might be applied or how it would be done, or if ArbCom would be consulted before it was done. My comment was regarding ArbCom's difficulty in responding to questions about how much ArbCom knew because, clearly, the very fact that the WMF is concerned about a particular user is confidential information. ArbCom can not reveal which users the WMF are concerned about. So ArbCom were put in an awkward position of not being able to deny the Committee knew that WMF were considering a ban, but not able to fully confirm it either as the Committee were unsure of what they could or should reveal. That is what I meant. SilkTork (talk) 21:34, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @JEissfeldt (WMF): Your statement is flawed. 1) There is no "non-public information" (other than private complaints to the WMF), unless Fram is lying. We can see all of Fram's contributions and whether they have been rev-deleted. Please show diffs of the harassment, if not, you are casting baseless WP:ASPERSIONS. Tagging new articles for improvement is not harassment. 2) You have not demonstrated that the English Wikipedia was unable to deal with this issue, so this is an unprecedented power-grab. That is the main question, not poor communication. 3) Mimicking private report functions from sites like Twitter or Facebook sounds questionable. They are considered to be pretty arbitrary and are affected by things like coordinated mass-reporting. This way there is no public scrutiny of the evidence. You are not real detectives or better than the community/ArbCom in this. There is a massive difference between enforcing the TOS when it comes to acting against child pornography and interpersonal disputes on-wiki. You are biting more than you can chew. --Pudeo (talk) 12:33, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- @JEissfeldt (WMF): You have sanctioned Fram on grounds of harassment of another user -- so it seems from all of the evidence others have provided, & your own refusal to clearly provide an alternative interpretation. Congratulations: you have now just taken on legal responsibility for all cases of harassment on Wikipedia: the serious ones, the ones that could be settled through a simple process, & (especially) all of the irresponsible wild accusations that the usual troublemakers who infest online fora make. Failure to handle these in a prompt & reasonable manner means the Foundation legal department will need to handle lawsuits & the threat of lawsuits over this.
You could have easily avoided this result had you first consulted the en.wikipedia community -- either as a whole or a proper representative body such as the ArbCom -- & stepped in only when the process arguably failed to arrive at a just & reasonable result. If you haven't noticed, even our members in good standing get a bit unruly, & our conflict resolution process is busy. Moreover, people are not always happy with the results of our conflict resolution process, sometimes for valid reasons. So where the members of the WMF could watch from some distance our chronic unruliness, & laugh at the ensuing foibles, you are now in this mess with us, & must needs sort out these conflicts for us.
(Some advice from a long-time Wikipedian, who has witnessed more than a few conflicts here: many of these conflicts are about the content of Wikipedia articles, & to handle these conflicts one needs great familiarity with the subject of the article. Since Wikipedia's articles cover a wide variety of subjects, if I were you I'd get to becoming experts on a lot of different subjects. But don't try to save time by reading Wikipedia articles, since it has been known that some have mistakes, some omit material, & some give undue emphasis to certain points of view -- matters you can only detect by reading reliable sources, not Wikipedia articles.) -- llywrch (talk) 17:18, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
no ... system exists for victims to make reports privately without fear that their “case” will be forced to become public.
Does the Arbitration Committee not qualify? – Teratix ₵ 13:09, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @JEissfeldt (WMF):
It is important that victims of hostilities like harassment have a safe place to make reports and that we uphold and respect their privacy when they do so.
Why? What you're enabling is anonymous reporting and sweeping punishments without anyone knowing what happened. Either Fram is lying (in which case, he SHOULD be desysop'd) or the accuser is. By masking the details in every way, you're not only masking the justice process, you're encouraging frivolous claims and leaving the rest of us wondering whether we're next. To be blunt, the lack of transparency here is astounding and WMF should be clear. From what I've seen thus far, Fram's ban stems from abusing sysop authority in some manner to harass another user. If that assessment is true, in order to prevent such behavior in the future, just say that. As it stands now, Fram's saying he hasn't and no evidence has been provided to prove otherwise. People are currently left wondering what was said/done and without the means to ensure we don't step into such a situation. Buffs (talk) 17:35, 17 June 2019 (UTC)- @Buffs: Jan is right here. It is important for people to have a safe way to report abuses without exposing themselves to harassment. That's not the issue. The issue is wether or not Fram's conduct was actually harassment, or if Fram got banned for making someone feel like they were being harassed. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Headbomb: The problem is the whole thing. People who feel they are victims of harassment should NOT be allowed to anonymously report a situation and expect a punishment of the accused without having to present their evidence publicly (which is exactly what's happened here). I'm sorry, but the #MeToo movement has infiltrated our collective logic to the point that accusations are considered proof. What we have here is private accusation -> private investigation -> private deliberation -> public punishment. Fram had ZERO chance to defend himself. Now, if Fram threatened to kill another editor (or other heinous acts), that's something completely different, but why hide it?! It should be simple enough to say "Oversighted evidence has been submitted that Fram has threatened others and we've decided an outright ban in perpetuity is appropriate" (example only). This would clarify what happened and discourage further misbehavior. As it is, we have no idea what happened. I'm not even supporting him or opposing the ban in general. My problem is that the process here is woefully lacking in transparency. Buffs (talk) 19:02, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- "People who feel they are victims of harassment should NOT be allowed to anonymously report a situation and expect a punishment of the accused without having to present their evidence publicly (which is exactly what's happened here)." They most definitely should be. Let's say you live in Bahrain, and you edit primarily on gay topics. I call you at your home at 3AM every day, posts your personal information elsewhere, defame you on troll forums, and generally engage in fucking creepy behaviour. You have clear evidence of this. This is general reprehensible behaviour, but going with a 'public trial' jeopardizes your life, because it outs you. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- No, what you're describing is criminal behavior. In such a case, where he was calling this person at 3AM and posting their personal information, then the reaction should have been: "It's been brought to our attention that User:X has engaged in behavior grossly incompatible with their role as an Admin. Given exigent circumstances, we've pre-emptively removed them from such a role and suspended their account indefinitely. In the meantime, the necessary information has been sent to ArbCom for review." It doesn't matter at that point WHO reported it. Instead, they've been unnecessarily vague to the point that no one really knows what is going on. This puts the entire community in the position that an individual has been suspended for unknown reasons. Buffs (talk) 15:41, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- "People who feel they are victims of harassment should NOT be allowed to anonymously report a situation and expect a punishment of the accused without having to present their evidence publicly (which is exactly what's happened here)." They most definitely should be. Let's say you live in Bahrain, and you edit primarily on gay topics. I call you at your home at 3AM every day, posts your personal information elsewhere, defame you on troll forums, and generally engage in fucking creepy behaviour. You have clear evidence of this. This is general reprehensible behaviour, but going with a 'public trial' jeopardizes your life, because it outs you. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Headbomb: The problem is the whole thing. People who feel they are victims of harassment should NOT be allowed to anonymously report a situation and expect a punishment of the accused without having to present their evidence publicly (which is exactly what's happened here). I'm sorry, but the #MeToo movement has infiltrated our collective logic to the point that accusations are considered proof. What we have here is private accusation -> private investigation -> private deliberation -> public punishment. Fram had ZERO chance to defend himself. Now, if Fram threatened to kill another editor (or other heinous acts), that's something completely different, but why hide it?! It should be simple enough to say "Oversighted evidence has been submitted that Fram has threatened others and we've decided an outright ban in perpetuity is appropriate" (example only). This would clarify what happened and discourage further misbehavior. As it is, we have no idea what happened. I'm not even supporting him or opposing the ban in general. My problem is that the process here is woefully lacking in transparency. Buffs (talk) 19:02, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Buffs: Jan is right here. It is important for people to have a safe way to report abuses without exposing themselves to harassment. That's not the issue. The issue is wether or not Fram's conduct was actually harassment, or if Fram got banned for making someone feel like they were being harassed. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- SilkTork A while back I had this idea, and it seems it taps well into your intentions. Sadly, it never got off the ground... Pundit|utter 05:42, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Further comments from Jan Eissfeldt
I would like to thank you all for your comments and feedback in regard to my recent post. I will try to reply here some of the main points and questions the community has asked.
- The changes to our Office Action policy were made publicly on February 19, 2019 as part of the documentation on Meta. It has not been our practice, historically, to report changes to T&S policy to the hundreds of local communities we work with. As I have noted previously, the use of local and time-limited bans is not a change of the team’s scope but was intended to be a less heavy handed option than indefinite global bans for cases that fall within the established scope. Their intention has been to close the gap between conduct warning office actions, which played a role in this case more than once, and indefinite global bans. The community’s reaction here to these more gradual bans has been clear that such less-”nuclear” options are both confusing and not felt to be acceptable and I will consider that carefully (and these two ideas, too).
- Regarding questions on balancing fairness to the accused party with the safety of the accusing party, this is something we have been working on for quite a long time, and it’s not something we or anyone else has perfected. By default, we reach out to the accused party for information if doing so is possible without violating the privacy of the accusing - or other involved - parties.
- To address questions about how the T&S investigations procedures work, I have asked my team to put together some public documentation that is easier to digest than the approval path table already available on Meta together early next week.
- Regarding the desysoping action taken, my team's reasoning was guided by the precedent set in 2016. You can find a bit more on that in my statement to the ArbCom case.
I am continuing to read this and other related pages, and as noted in my ArbCom statement will continue to engage with the community on several other points next week when the public documentation will be ready. Jan (WMF) (talk) 19:35, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Jan Eissfeldt update (06/17/2019)
- On the question of how many cases reaching T&S result in office actions, the answer is two-fold:
- Roughly 90% of the outreach to T&S does not result in T&S cases. There are two big reasons for that: community self-governance and the hurdle for opening T&S cases being consequently pretty high. Much of the outreach we receive therefore can be routinely addressed by others and is being redirected - including to OTRS, ArbCom, other community processes. Last quarter, for example, the percent of T&S cases opened relative to outreach received was 8.1%, the quarter before 11%.
- Within these ~10% that become investigations, T&S cases resulted in actions in 48.18% of all investigations conducted over the last four years. That number includes both types of office actions: secondary like a private conduct warnings, and primary, like Foundation global bans.
- For historical context: T&S cases historically used to come mainly from the English language projects but that has steadily declined to less than a third of cases (again Q1 and 2 18/19 data). The main cause for the trend has been a consistent rise in requests from other language projects.
- I know some of you have expressed concerns about the new reporting system and the universal code of conduct here and on ArbCom’s talk page. T&S staffer Sydney Poore, who has been pinged by several editors already, will be engaging directly about these initiatives in the conversations.
- On questions on better communications of office action procedures: Going forward, news of all substantive changes to the office actions policy will be going out to all communities; just like technical changes already do. T&S will work with ComRel to make sure it follows the usual setup and feedback reviewed on the policy’s talk page on Meta. We are also reviewing, in line with Vermont’s suggestion from last week, whether to include individual public office actions, which is more complicated.
- We have heard your concerns about fairness to Fram of the case as it proceeded. Balancing fairness to the accused party with the safety of the accusing party is something we have been working on for quite a long time, and it’s not something we’ve perfected. Generally, we will reach out to the accused party for information if doing so is possible without violating the privacy of the accusing - or other involved - parties, but our efforts do remain a work in progress when it comes to finding the right balance in each individual case.
- As far as the ability for others to avoid making mistakes and finding themselves unexpectedly sanctioned, unfortunately, we cannot publicly disclose details of this or any particular case, for all the reasons previously discussed. This means that, as much as we understand your wanting the information, we cannot tell you what specific behaviors by Fram brought about this action. We can, however, say that abiding by the ToU is required of everyone who edits a Wikimedia site. That includes refraining from behaviors described by the ToU, including “[e]ngaging in harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism”. In cases where we believe a user may not be aware that they are violating expected behavioral standards, even repeatedly, we give conduct warnings prior to any action being taken. In Fram’s case, as noted on Commons, we did send more than one of those warnings/reminders before the most recent step.
- There have been suggestions that T&S should have piloted the newer office action measures first before proceeding with a potentially controversial case like Fram’s. I don’t agree with that as I think that bending the selection of cases to cherry-pick a good “starter” case endangers the independent investigations approach T&S has to uphold.
- There have been questions about the investigation process itself. As indicated on Friday above, my team has built a graphic to visualize the overall process to make it easier to navigate. Traditionally, it has been documented as a table on Meta and is always followed. I hope that the graphic puts the number I detail in the first bullet of this edit above into its context. ~10% go through the process visualized here and less than half thereof result in office actions taken. Jan (WMF) (talk) 21:53, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Community questions, responses, and comments
- Question. This all seems pretty par for the course; but to Jan (WMF), you never gave a figure as to describe the quantity of requests (only percentage). If you are authorized to make that statistic public, please do so and be sure to ping me. Either way, thank you for this response and the infographic from the team. Regards, –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 02:48, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Actually I think it's quite fair to only give percentages, especially over time rather than merely one quarter of results. I found the information quite informative and pretty reassuring and thank Jan for that. It wasn't, however, quite what I had asked for. What I had hoped for was once we entered the approval process grey box, what percentage ultimately end up at all approvals received and what percentage end up with no office action recommended/office action declined. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:42, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- User:X decides to run for a seat on the Arbitration Committee. Just as with most other roles requiring identification, it is possible to run for ArbCom and not identify until after election (steward elections are the only exception I can think of). The WMF T&S team is responsible for updating the noticeboard. Unbeknownst to the community, X has already received two conduct warnings for WMF. How will WMF respond to this? --Rschen7754 03:11, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Interesting, thanks Jan. I was trying to think of what would be comparable numbers for arbcom, but it's hard to compare apples to apples. Looks like case request acceptance has been in the 10-20% range for the last few years, but we don't keep outcomes data like that for private complaints/requests/etc. I see in that chart a lot of stuff about who approves what in which order, but I wonder if the box where the actual investigation happens can be opened up a little more. What does an "investigation" consist of? What would the investigator look at? Assuming we're talking about a harassment case, would it include things like contacting other possible victims if you discover them, or asking the opinion of others who were affected by the problem behavior but who did not get in touch with T&S? Or is the decision about whether a particular behavior is harassing made by the person doing the investigation? Under what circumstances would a particular report be referred back to arbcom (or to community processes) rather than pursued internally? The chart tells us how WMF staff communicate internally about these things, but not about communication with or information-gathering from anyone other than the directly affected parties. (The table has a bit more, but to be honest I can't understand the "Dissemination of information relevant to the office action to specific groups" row at all. That's quite a mouthful, but since it's separate from the reporter and the affected user, I assume that means other interested parties, but "conduct warning" gets a checkmark for that one and "interaction ban" doesn't? Is that right?) Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- That's definitely not enough. I am rather disappointed because I saw a certain hope in Jan's last posting. He only gives a diagram of the internal process but nothing, literally nothing, about communication to others and also nothing about the reasonings for any decision at any point. So they seem to simply want to continue as before. Everything relevant remains a secret, regardless whether this is necessary or not. No one, literally no one is able to get insight, not even ArbCom or a trustworthy representative. Even the "accused" remains uninformed. Appeal is impossible. This is unfair trial par excellence. As to fairness, this is a word-by-word repetition of the last statement. What I first saw as an offer for discussion seems to be hollow phrase. I intend to open an RfC at Meta but wanted to wait in the hope that something relevant comes up from the side of T&S. This is not so. Mautpreller (talk) 09:18, 18 June 2019 (UTC) (from German Wikipedia).
- This is grossly insufficient. I'd like to call attention to the following statement: Generally, we will reach out to the accused party for information if doing so is possible without violating the privacy of the accusing - or other involved - parties This means that T&S is willing to, in some cases, rule against someone completely in absentia. This is not an acceptable system, and T&S needs to make major modifications to it before accepting new cases. Tazerdadog (talk) 10:21, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks Jan. The questions I have regarding the harassment investigation process are:
- 1) Is there a provision for asking the notifier if they wish ArbCom to be involved, or is it assumed that they do not? If it is assumed they do not, what was the data and rationale behind making that decision?
- 2) What is the legal distinction for privacy in these investigations between those who can see the report and those who cannot? ArbCom members have signed the Confidentially Agreement [24] in which it is agreed that "The Wikimedia Foundation may pursue available legal remedies, including injunctive relief or, in the case of willful intent, monetary damages." What extra legal powers do the Foundation have over those individuals who are permitted to see the report that they do not have over ArbCom members who have signed that they agree to being legally pursued? If the distinction is a paid contract, then would paying ArbCom members a token amount per year, overcome the legal hurdles to allowing ArbCom to view such material? Or is the reluctance to share harassment complaints with ArbCom more to do with procedural qualms rather than legal ones?
- 3) Several members of the T&S Team are experienced and trusted Wikipedians, including two admins from Wikipedia who have been functionaries, one of whom has served on ArbCom, so I have no doubt that investigations were done with some insight and understanding of both sides of the issue (as there are always two sides). However, as with others who have commented, the lack of consultation with the accused person seems odd. How have the legal and moral rights of the accused been balanced against the legal and moral rights of the accuser? We have heard it stressed that the accuser is to be protected, but what consideration has been given to protecting the accused?
- Thanks in advance for considering these questions. SilkTork (talk) 12:06, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- SilkTork, we know what happens when volunteers cross the line and become salaried employees (or contractors). In 2013 one was desysoped for particularly egregious behaviour, right in the middle of an outgoing ED's valedictory speech at a Wikimania in which she was presenting a prerecorded video that specifically praised the individual's work (the surpressed sniggers in the lecture theatre were audible). Needless to say, although the community called for it, that individual was not sacked from their paid job. I am reminded of this recent comment by Seraphinblade:
JEissfeldt (WMF), while I appreciate you at least being willing to put your name on this statement, it is still more of the same. I will be posting a response as to why shortly, point by point to what you said, but in short: The WMF is not a "higher authority" than the English Wikipedia community, and may not overrule it, any more than we could walk into the San Francisco offices, point to an employee, say "You're fired", and expect that to have any effect. WMF is a separate body, but it is not "higher" than the English Wikipedia community. We don't can your employees, you don't can our editors or admins. You also do not overrule or bypass our editorial or community processes.
- Oh, the irony. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:34, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- We have a long-established principle on WP that blocks and bans are intended to be preventative, not punitive. How is a ban like Fram's supposed to prevent future misconduct after it has expired, if it is not made expressly clear to the banned editor in what areas their actions went over the line? Jheald (talk) 14:41, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I can identify a few things that give me significant concerns, and I urge that these receive attention as WMF continues to work on the procedure.
- As already noted by others, there needs to be a clearer and more substantive part of the workflow for responses from the accused editor.
- Although it's good to have multiple layers of review, it's not clear from the information here whether all of the layers involve serious and independent evaluation of the complaint. There is a serious risk that some of the later, higher-level review steps may just be something like "Well, it's looks like [name] did a good job of checking all the boxes, so we'll just sign off on it and move on."
- It's not spelled out, but there really ought to be a sort of "minutes" or other written record of decisions at each step. I do not mean that this should be public, but it can be important to keep internally in the event of subsequent scrutiny from the WMF Board or others, as is happening here. I think it should memorialize any off-the-cuff discussions, to have a record if someone not officially involved in a particular step of the review has nonetheless commented to an involved staff person about it.
- As noted by others, there needs to be evaluation of whether the problem could be referred to the local project (ArbCom etc.).
- And more broadly, it is important that office actions be used only for the kinds of purposes for which they have historically been intended. Office actions, especially those involving the larger projects, should never be an alternative forum for a dispute that could instead have been handled locally. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:10, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks Jan. I have a few questions:
- m:Community health initiative/User reporting system consultation 2019, tells us,
. Furthermore, WP:OFFICE tells us,There are some rare instances when Wikimedia Foundation Trust and Safety will take actions to protect the safety of the community and the public. This happens where actions on local community governance level are either insufficient or not possible. There may be some rare cases where the Wikimedia Foundation must override local policy, such as to protect the safety of the Wikimedia communities or the public. See Trust & Safety Office actions for more details. [25]
If it's within your purview can you tell us whether the OFFICE action and override of local governance was necessary to protect the community? A simple yes of no is fine, or simply indicate if you're unwilling or unable to answer.The purpose of this policy is to help improve the actual and perceived safety of Wikimedia community members, the movement itself, and the public in circumstances where actions on local community governance level are either insufficient or not possible. Local policies remain primary on all Wikimedia projects, as explained in the Terms of Use, and office actions are complementary to those local policies. However, there may be some rare cases where the Wikimedia Foundation must override local policy, such as in complying with valid and enforceable court orders to remove content that might otherwise comply with policy or in protecting the safety of the Wikimedia communities or the public.
- m:Community health initiative/User reporting system consultation 2019, tells us,
- In the findings of the report written by Harvard Negotiation and Mediation Clinical Program (HNMCP) on page 23, the failures in our noticeboard practices are noted (findings, which, generally seem spot on). [Reporting systems on English Wikipedia (pdf) explains the function of specialized noticeboards (page 9). In the initial "warnings" to Fram (not sure whether I'm using the correct term), I'm wondering whether anyone on your team considered suggesting s/he report issues with users to relevant noticeboards (i.e, WP:AN/I; WP:RSN; WP:CCI? Regardless of the (HNMCP)'s recommendations and that the community should absolute see to strengthening those boards in-house, noticeboards are generally a good first stop, help to get more eyes on a situation and prevent a single editor who is working unilaterally from becoming overly frustrated and from being subjected to "anecdotal" stories. Again, if the question is not something you're able to answer, I'll understand fully.
- Finally, I've spent quite a few hours finding documents, reading, checking sourcing, but had RexxS not posted a series of links here there wouldn't have been a starting point. Would it be feasible to have more information available here on en.wp? Links are easy to post and easy to find, and it is, after all, a wiki. Thanks, Victoria (tk) 00:03, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Response from Fram to Jan
Jan Eissfeldt said[26]
- "As far as the ability for others to avoid making mistakes and finding themselves unexpectedly sanctioned, unfortunately, we cannot publicly disclose details of this or any particular case, for all the reasons previously discussed. This means that, as much as we understand your wanting the information, we cannot tell you what specific behaviors by Fram brought about this action. We can, however, say that abiding by the ToU is required of everyone who edits a Wikimedia site. That includes refraining from behaviors described by the ToU, including “[e]ngaging in harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism”. In cases where we believe a user may not be aware that they are violating expected behavioral standards, even repeatedly, we give conduct warnings prior to any action being taken. In Fram’s case, as noted on Commons, we did send more than one of those warnings/reminders before the most recent step."
"we cannot tell you what specific behaviors by Fram brought about this action." understood, but you should at least be able to confirm that it is about on-wiki behaviour only surely?
"In Fram’s case, as noted on Commons, we did send more than one of those warnings/reminders before the most recent step." Yes, as I noted on Commons but which you (WMF) failed to acknowledge until now, I got two such reminders (one very general, which is now being discussed at enwiki and doesn't seem to be really well recieved as an acceptable warning; and two, about a specific issue where the general opinion at enwiki seems to be that no warning was necessary for these quite normal edits), and then a sudden one-year ban (plus desysop) for quite different behaviour (not the supposed harassment of an individual, but incivility against the Arbcom), which doesn't seem to fit any of the "harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism" category.
In any case, I guess we can use your note as a rather well hidden acknowledgment that my account of the WMF communications was accurate? That would at least lay to bed some of the more wild speculations made in these discussions. Fram (talk) 08:55, 18 June 2019 (UTC) Copied from Commons Tazerdadog (talk) 12:11, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Editor retention
It's been noted by various people that if you piss off the volunteers, they leave. This is certainly true. However, I strongly suspect that the people who worry about our governance process, or are even aware of its existence, is a very small faction of our volunteer community. They may do a disproportionately large share of the editing (not to mention all the mopping), but overall, they're not who we need to be worried about when we're talking about editor retention.
The pie chart I've linked to is five years old, but I doubt anything has changed much. The top 10,000 people, which almost certainly includes all the people who have commented here, contributed 1/3 of the edits. The rest of the community contributed 2/3.
Let's assume WMF does some hypothetical thing which pisses off enough of the top 10K, that 10% (uniformly distributed) of them quit. Let's further assume that this same action makes wikipedia a more user-friendly place by reducing aggressive behavior, threatening language, and disharmony. Which results in a 10% increase in retention among the long tail of the community. This gives us 3% fewer total edits from the big users, but 6% more total edits from the small users, for a net increase of 3%. Even if you stipulate that this thing done by the WMF was a breach of process, it's still a win as far as increased community involvement is concerned.
Yeah, I know. The numbers are somewhat made up. And it doesn't take into account that the top 10% includes essentially all of the users with advanced capabilities. But, the WMF doesn't exist to (only) serve the serve the power users. It exists to serve the entire user community. As do all of us in the admin corps. My value as an admin isn't when I adjudicate some highly technical AfD argued by policy-quoting experts on both sides. It's when I help a newbie with something that needs a mop and convert them into a long-term contributor. I think we sometimes lose sight of that.
-- RoySmith (talk) 23:06, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- RoySmith, I think you're right to a degree, and we should generally try to avoid having a bite for new contributors. That being said, though, pissing off a few senior contributors to the extent they leave might have the same impact as annoying thousands of new contributors, since many of them only edit once and never again. We need to think very carefully before we do that. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:29, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not everyone with less than 8000 edits is new. Some of them may even be among us. —Rutebega (talk) 23:49, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
- RoySmith: Do the pie chart and your premise ignore the quality aspect of wikipedia articles and edits? If you count edits that are vandalism, disruption, misinformation, disinformation, blogging, testing, plugging of WP:WWIN content and such as equal in value to a high-quality summary of peer-reviewed scholarly sources, then your analysis is right to that degree, but deeply flawed from the community aims perspective. It is generally the repeated vandalism/abuse/disruption/gaming/disrespect of our content and editing guidelines that get our admins and active editors obnoxious and hostile. Sometimes they are more obnoxious than is necessary. Yet, Wikipedia needs these gadflies if we want well-sourced, scholarship-based, neutral and better quality articles. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:41, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- It's certainly true that much of the "rest of Wikipedia"'s edits are poor in one way or another, and have been reverted - especially 5 years ago and further back. But equally, and especially in those days, quite a lot of the top editors' work was doing the reversions. Johnbod (talk) 16:24, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- Johnbod: Thanks. We need to find ways to politely, yet firmly, discourage poor editing. Or better, how to evolve the poor editors into better editors. I tend to review, edit or intervene in dispute-filled, sensitive topics relating to religions, history, ethnic or interreligious conflicts, elections, and such topics in South Asia, East Africa and elsewhere. I am concerned that some well-meaning editors commenting on this Framban page may not be considering the "Health and Safety" impact on our readers and our fellow human beings too poor to afford internet-connected devices. There can be and sometimes is a real effect of fake hate propaganda, misinformation, disinformation and careless (or intentional) nonsense in en-WP article by the way it affects the social media, public or political discourse. We need watchful and when necessary aggressive admins to help maintain the quality of Wikipedia articles. All editing is not of the same value. Quality is important. Our admins and editors need an open community-consensus process to patrol and act. I hope the WMFOffice initiatives at T&S and the actions such as Framban do not adversely affect the "Quality and Reliability" of en-WP content. We must not jeopardize the "Health and Safety" of individuals and communities affected by what our articles contain (e.g. our health/pharma/medical/civil war/terrorism/past genocides/conflicts/etc articles). Of course, we can and should achieve this without unnecessary obnoxiousness or hostility between editors. Obnoxiousness and harassment is, at times, a serious problem in en-WP. We must welcome new editors, yet we must also be protective of our admins because they are, at times, subject to a lot of abuse and burnout. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- @RoySmith: - while it's an interesting argument (and not without at least some theoretical benefits), your penultimate line reads "it's when I help a newbie with something that needs a mop and convert them into a long-term contributor". Your hypothetical mooted a 6% increase in new edits. But that assumes that the loss of helping editors + loss due to a less well-run website, won't eat away those new editors. The aggression absolutely does drive them away. I would like a firmer CIVIL requirement... though one that is promulgated, not imposed from the darkness. However there is more than one way to discourage new editors from sticking around. Nosebagbear (talk) 08:45, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'd not noticed this section before. Roy, again, said what I wanted to say better than I could. So call this a strong endorse. Hobit (talk) 21:26, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- The false premise here, Roy, is that WMF gives a rat's dingus about the encyclopedia. They care about staying out of the headlines so that the donation money flows into the trough. Controversy is bad for business, so controversial Wikipedians can walk the plank... Carrite (talk) 04:14, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
"Writing a universal code of conduct, and making a new user reporting system"
In a few places, eg here, here, people have started wondering about a video "Exploring the gender gap in Wikipedia editors" (YouTube, 3 mins), posted by User:Rosiestep on June 11.
At 02:32 User:SPoore (WMF) (FloNight) talks of
"Two of the big initiatives that are going to be happening this next year - one of them is writing a universal code of conduct, and the second one is us making a new reporting system."
Not clear what the community's role in this will be. Jheald (talk) 12:59, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Response by Sydney Poore
- (Apologizes for top posting) My name Sydney Poore and I work at Wikimedia Foundation. Some of you may know me as FloNight. I want to address some questions and concerns people have about a comment I made in the University of Washington video that came out last week. In the video I mentioned the plans for a User reporting system and a Universal Code of Conduct to be developed the next fiscal year. My primary work since I came on staff is to is engage with the Wikimedia communities about initiatives to address harassment, most through tech solutions. On occasion I speak with the media, too. In this instance I responded to a media request for a video interview about this study.
External videos Exploring the gender gap in Wikipedia editors, 3:09, June 11, 2019, University of Washington[1] - Among other things, I spoke of the upcoming plans for the development of a User Reporting System and a Universal Code of Conduct because I believe that it is important to share information publicly about the Wikimedia movement's work to address issues. I never intended to blindside anyone or give the impression that the opinion of the community is not important. I want to take this opportunity to invite everyone to participate in the consultations. I'm available to answer questions about the User Reporting System and the Universal Code of Conduct. SPoore (WMF), Strategist, Community health initiative (talk) 02:01, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Video: The Wikipedia gender gap". UW News. University of Washington. June 12, 2019. Retrieved June 12, 2019.
Discussion
- If they intend to ram this through without meaningful input from the community, then this is very scary. Unfortunately, I do not currently doubt that they intend to do exactly that. This has the potential to explain a good deal about the WMF's actions so far in this case - and their initial target. @Doc James:, could you include anything that you know about this in your report to the community? Tazerdadog (talk) 13:09, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not aware of any specifics User:Tazerdadog. We at Wiki Project Med Foundation and the Wiki Journal of Medicine are working on codes of conduct. IMO such codes need to be developed by the communities (with potentially some support from the foundation) not by the foundation independently. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- So that the link is on record, the draft CoC that the WikiJournal User Group is working on is here. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)talk 01:55, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Last I checked, the community was still trying to flesh out a broad-brush "strategy for 2030"... wbm1058 (talk) 13:14, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not aware of any specifics User:Tazerdadog. We at Wiki Project Med Foundation and the Wiki Journal of Medicine are working on codes of conduct. IMO such codes need to be developed by the communities (with potentially some support from the foundation) not by the foundation independently. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- A universal code of conduct? That is very scary. Raise a hand everybody who believes that will be based on anything other than US corporate English notions of good conduct, narrowly interpreted and with no room for culturally conditioned variation. I doubt there will be any place for people like me here if that happens. And who would enforce it? T&S, who somebody somewhere described as "having our backs", but who will never in a million years "have the back" of most of us? --bonadea contributions talk 13:29, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Even worse, "universal" means it is going to involve all WMF projects, I bet. Oh this is so bad. --bonadea contributions talk 13:33, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Bonadea, be pleased to know that the consultation phase of User-reporting-System is already over and per their timeline, they are either preparing the workflow or designing the final software. I did see no notice over en-wiki, awaring the community of the phase and only 4 admins from en-wiki seem to have participated. ∯WBGconverse 13:37, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I am pretty sure I have seen a notice several times. I believe it was on AN for both consultation rounds, though I might have a memory aberration.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:44, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ymblanter, possilikely, certainly.
- I, for one, searched for the contributions of the relevant stuff and did not come across any (might have used MMS, though) post for the consultation of User-report-system. A string-search over AN led to a sole hit:- a Tech News report mentioning it ;-)
- I am not doubting any conspiracy or invoking an ulterior motive in the Community Health plans but running non-advertised consultations or learning of the pending development of an universal CoC from an offsite video, is pretty against our values of transparency. ∯WBGconverse 14:08, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I am pretty sure I have seen a notice several times. I believe it was on AN for both consultation rounds, though I might have a memory aberration.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:44, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Bonadea, be pleased to know that the consultation phase of User-reporting-System is already over and per their timeline, they are either preparing the workflow or designing the final software. I did see no notice over en-wiki, awaring the community of the phase and only 4 admins from en-wiki seem to have participated. ∯WBGconverse 13:37, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- A very controversial new initiative, coming to light the day after the disappearing of one of the community's most vocal critics of controversial new initiatives. There appears to have been very little notification of this on enwiki, as far as I can see. Black Kite (talk) 13:35, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Black Kite, Fram's not banned on meta, where he's free to criticize controversial new initiatives, at least at this time. MLauba (Talk) 18:40, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- As I say above, it may not be fair to read too much into the timing. My take on things so far (though I may have missed bits here and there) is that there will be updates coming down the pipeline (from WMF staff and from Doc James who has said on his talk page that discussions are ongoing) that should make things clearer. Something that is concerning me is that I do think the WMF don't appear to trust the en-wiki ArbCom - might this be related to an earlier (this year or last year) resignation of an arbitrator and whether confidential material was being kept confidential (I may be misremembering)? Finally (apologies for putting it in here but I won't have time this weekend to follow things closely - maybe a really good summary will get written...), could some people keep an eye on Fram's Commons talk page, as that has the potential to blow up if more people start posting over there. I hope people don't lose sight of the fact that there are real people involved here (on all sides), and they need personal resolutions to all this, as well as the big picture, project-wide considerations. Carcharoth (talk) 13:56, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- English-language Wikipedia is a worldwide project with people coming from extremely different cultures and with varying backgrounds, and very often English is not their first language (myself included - I'm from Switzerland, my first language is Swiss German). Introducing some kind of "universal code of conduct" seems very challenging in this environment. A statement that might be perceived as direct and outspoken, but not offensive in culture A might be seen as a frontal attack in culture B. Of course there are some things that would be universally inacceptable (such as direct threats, something like "I will come to your house and beat you up"), but that doesn't necessarily include things such as swearwords (some of which are, for example, much less taboo in German-speaking countries than in America, I think). Gestumblindi (talk) 14:18, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm certainly hoping that either Doc James or SPoore (WMF) can shed some light on this subject, but it is...concerning, to put it mildly. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:56, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I had been saying the methods suggested by others were OTT...but this would be catastrophic. Hell, it'd be terrible even if they did have user participation because a universal code of conduct can't work for 750 different projects! ...And we don't see any sign of significant community involvement. Along with the reporting system it is functionally a disenfranchisement of every community and the enforcement mechanisms that exist in many of them. We don't have the details yet, but if more comes out in this vein, then we're going to have to change from the "keep it in-house" discussion. If it comes - it's a lock-out the site level. Nosebagbear (talk) 15:12, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- By the way, apparently this is being done here on Meta. There's a breathtaking example of doublespeak there:
The Wikimedia Foundation’s general approach, as described, in the Terms of Use, section 10, is to respect local self-governance of the volunteer communities it supports where possible.
...While the Wikimedia Foundation's Community health initiative will make the final decisions...
. Riiiiight. In the same breath, talk about how much you respect local projects' self-governance, and state that you plan not to respect it at all. But, for all the good it'll do, maybe some objections ought to get registered. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:21, 15 June 2019 (UTC) - Swearwords are considered vulgar and offending language in the same way in german speaking countries than in englisch speaking, but you must compare the right swearwords (not the direct translations or usage of english loan words which some use to sound less offensive, giving perhaps a wrong impression to english readers who notice this). As to the multi-culture background of the english wikipedia, everyone who learns english as a second language gets warnings of using the four or seven letter words, especially from the very countries of the native speakers. So I simply don´t buy any reassurement of some of the editors here that this is nowadays considered a small thing.--Claude J (talk) 15:45, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Claude J: I think you are oversimplifying. For instance, you are throwing all English-speaking countries together, but there are huge differences when it comes to swearwords e.g. between the UK and the USA. Also, what would be "the right swearwords" to compare? I think that the usual scatological swearwords, for example, such as German "Scheisse", are usually taken very lightly. Also, for example, German television has absolutely no tradition of "bleeping" out swearwords of any kind, English or German (it's only encountered in imported TV shows and sometimes to make fun of this "American thing"). Gestumblindi (talk) 16:05, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Addendum: English-language Wikipedia is not an American, but an international environment. The English language here is only a veneer, not really that unifying as one could believe on the surface. Often, all people involved in an English-language conversation are not native speakers, and native speakers might come from countries so different as Ghana and Scotland. Gestumblindi (talk) 16:53, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see anyone arguing that en.wiki is American. I don't have statistics for this but I'd say the majority of en.wiki users are not American, so it could hardly be referred to as an "American" wiki. The USA's significance is only that I think of any single country, it would have the most editors on en.wiki. Enigmamsg 17:21, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think that there is room for a universal code of conduct - just so we don't get things like azwiki. But it needs to come about a different way. Ideally, it would be decided on Meta and focus on the universal Wikimedia principles - universal enough so that the largest 10 WMF wikis should be able to implement it on Day 1 with little to no changes to local policies. --Rschen7754 15:56, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Also, those pages linked to above on Meta are hard to navigate and make me want to cry. --Rschen7754 16:47, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Rschen7754, how does one exactly avoid an az-wiki or Croatian-Wiki rerun with a CoC? ∯WBGconverse 16:49, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Rschen7754. There is no reason that a universal code of conduct can't be compatible with local codes of conduct. In the US Army, there is a general code that everyone follows as a soldier. Each individual unit, however, was free to add to this, just not allowed to subtract. We can, as a community decide how much (if anything) we want to add to a universal code of conduct. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Megalibrarygirl: - it can only be compatible if every local code of conduct either already met it or changed. The WMF, as considered above, is likely to pick "corporate US civility" as the base level, which would require dramatic changes from multiple communities. The fact that local communities could add is somewhat irrelevant to the concerns. If the WMF picks a "bare, required minimum", which would be good, then they could probably go with it. If and only if they demonstrated they could be trusted and that both harassed and accused could be treated fairly. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:39, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm rather annoyed that this didn't get banners but the talk page did. We've only 2 weeks left to comment - I've added it to Cent and VPP (though it might belong in VPR). The timing isn't iffy, but the heavy lack of spreading the word is Nosebagbear (talk) 16:41, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Megalibrarygirl, I think the issue is not in adding, but in interpretation. "Be civil" means different things in different places and different contexts. It may, for example, be perfectly civil and acceptable for me to swear while out for a beer with my friends, but would be unacceptable to do in a job interview. It may be perfectly okay for me to tell someone who I know well that they're a dumbass if they make a mistake, but would not be civil if I saw a stranger make that same error. I do not want those decisions to be made by some faceless, unaccountable, and probably ultimately outsourced "moderation team" like happens on so many websites. Our means may not be perfect, but at the very least, if you get in trouble for something, you know what you did wrong, you know why the community disapproves of it, and you know what you need to do differently going forward. And perhaps most importantly, you can argue in your defense, which is an absolutely indispensable part of any fair process. The Army might court-martial you if you break their rules, but they will not do it in secret with you not allowed to present a defense or even know what you're accused of. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:45, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Beyond them being faceless and unaccountable - their interpretation is based in a completely different community. To continue the analogy - courts martial are tried by individuals in the same communities - understanding expectations and ethoses. T&S (or whoever) have functionally no involvement so they run off their own viewpoints alone. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:50, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Megalibrarygirl I agree with Seraphim's comments, plus I don't trust the WMF, as it currently stands, to write a simple bare-minimum code of conduct that individual projects can add to as needed. As with Nosebagbear, I suspect that "corporate US civility" will be the minimum they will consider putting through; based on past WMF communications, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they end up expecting everyone to talk in exactly the same sort of language they use--the sort of content-free legalese we've been getting in this case that is clearly written by an on-retainer lawyer to ensure that there's no way for it to be held against them from a legal standpoint. Given that most of us are not lawyers and can't afford to keep one on retainer to help us draw up every single statement we make on Wikipedia, I'd say the potential chilling effect is clear--and anyone who believes that "corporate US civility" language requirements would do anything to stop harassment or other abusive acts clearly has never spent any time in an American corporate environment, dealing with the levels of office politics that make enwiki's problems look like a drop in the bucket. (Not to mention how political correctness results in continuous change of what constitutes such civility standards, meaning that what's acceptable today may get you fired six weeks from now...) rdfox 76 (talk) 16:58, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Megalibrarygirl I think the proposed mechanism is understood, what worries at least me is that the defined minimum standard will be, and I have great doubts that it will be in line with current standards onto which community can decide to add some rules, or reverse them in future. EllsworthSK (talk) 17:01, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The military analogy is inapt. WMF is not the commanding officer of English Wikipedia nor is it the WMF's role to instill discipline in their alleged subordinates. The WMF is the *servant* of the Wikipedia movement, not its master. This is more comparable to a military coup, a powerful group that is supposed to be serving the Wikimedia movement that aggressively takes control based on the argument that they have the guns and we do not. All hail Despotpedia. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 17:16, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Don't take the analogy too literally, CoffeeCrumbs. I used it because it was an example that I'd experienced when I was in the military. I agree that the WMF is not a commanding officer. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:01, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Just to point out that there is an ongoing Movement Strategy Process which are looking at questions like:
- How and to whom should movement roles and structures be accountable? What structures, processes, and behaviours will enable us to include all voices (including e.g. current contributors and emerging audiences) in our decision-making?
- How can the ability of communities to govern themselves within the broad framework of the Foundation’s Terms of Use be improved while also respecting the dignity of everyone involved and their contributions towards our shared goals? How can cultural shift in communities be initiated to make contributing a more positive experience for everyone participating in good faith?
- How can cultural shift in communities be initiated to make contributing a more positive experience for everyone participating in good faith? Trying to initiate a cultural shift will cause a lot of shitstorms, and not a lot of cultural shift. This is a scary question for them to be asking in the first place.Tazerdadog (talk) 19:14, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- That's exactly what happened with the ban of Fram (according to Risker on the talk page). * Pppery * it has begun... 19:16, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- That they are even asking that kind of question shows that they have no clue what they are talking about. And yes, scary. --bonadea contributions talk 20:59, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well, it's a question that invites answers. I would observe that culture does in fact change, so presumably it's possible to change it. And the objective of a more positive experience for everyone participating in good faith does not strike me as unreasonable either. It may of course be that some people feel that either the current experience of contributing is so good that it cannot be improved; or that the only way to improve it is by removing/restricting the role of the WMF; or that any cultural change can't start from outside a project... if you hold those views (or, indeed, something else) then please do feed it in to the Working Group page on Meta! The Land (talk) 11:49, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- How can cultural shift in communities be initiated to make contributing a more positive experience for everyone participating in good faith? Trying to initiate a cultural shift will cause a lot of shitstorms, and not a lot of cultural shift. This is a scary question for them to be asking in the first place.Tazerdadog (talk) 19:14, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The working groups will create some recommendations designed to address these questions in the next few months, and have been inviting community input since roughly April. It's important to note that this is not a WMF-only process, indeed, most of the groups have only a couple of WMF staff on them. If you have views then I'd suggest adding them on Meta... The Land (talk) 18:25, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Also
- A lot of the problems we are having throughout this dispute have to do with the execution of policies, by fallible human beings, as opposed to what the words on the page are. I think editors who have been around for a while understand what is envisioned in the idea of the kind of harassment that requires an office action. And I think the community has a consensus that the intended meaning of office action is one that we support. Normally, the community would consider a true office action to be something that no admin should revert. But what is happening here is that a rather strange time-delimited and single-project sanction was made as an "office action", but what appears to be the causative conduct does not look like something that would be understood as requiring office action, and the administered remedy does not look like something that is appropriate for the kind of really bad conduct that office actions were intended for. In that sense, nobody reverted an office action, but rather, they reverted something that was mislabeled as an office action. I say that in this talk section because, in principle, the idea of a better WMF structure for dealing with serious bullying, and helping to repair the barriers that women and some other editing populations experience, is actually something with which I agree. In principle. But I think many of us see danger in these new plans about a CoC and reporting system because it looks like they will be subject to the same serious problems in execution that happened with Fram and the subsequent communications. Should there be a safe way for a bullied editor to get help? Yes, I support that concept. But should we have something that looks like a gameable way to disappear someone you don't like? Of course not. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:58, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with a lot of what has been said here (not everything, certainly) and would just like to add a couple of points. Caveat: we can never extrapolate from a population to an individual (this applies equally much to individuals who through birth have been randomly assigned to a gender group, as to individuals who have been randomly assigned to a cultural/language group) and so I'm not making claims about any individuals, just general trends among groups of pople. That being said, "civility" is not merely about appropriate word choice, about not swearing when that would cause offence, using politeness phrases, making sure to pick the appropriate gender pronouns, etc. Those are important things but they are only part of civility/politeness/whatever you want to call it. I'll give two examples, which are perhaps not directly relevant to Wikipedia, but still serve to illustrate the issue. a) In the US, it is acceptable to speak well of onself. (Incidentally, one reason I would never go for a RfA is the mandatory question about what contribution one is most proud of - a typical and fairly neutral kind of question in an American context, perfectly fine for many non-Americans as well, but impossible to address for me.) However, in e.g. Australia, people who do that risk being perceived as tall poppies. This has sometimes caused misunderstandings and friction when American business people have done business with Australian colleagues. Not because Americans are ruder than Australians, or vice versa, but because the same language is used differently, and because of differences in what is appropriate to say. b) In the United States and some other part of the Anglo world, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" is often cited as a useful, civil, and desirable way to interact with others. I have seen it said in discussions on Wikipedia, as a matter of fact. However, in many cultures, that cultural script is completely inappropriate, since it encourages people not to mention other people's flaws - which is dishonest to the point of rudeness. This doesn't make one culture more rude than another, certainly not. It just shows that civility and rudeness are concepts that differ in fundamental ways. (I know that the WMF employs people who understand these issues very well indeed, but they won't be involved if this is a "T&S" thing.) Final point: a couple of editors who are often cited as shining examples of civil behaviour are people whose communication styles come across as very patronising to me. That's my own problem obviously, nobody else's, and it doesn't mean I can't communicate with them - but it illustrates the same thing.
- TLDR: There is no universal concept of civility. Not even in English. And trying to impose such a code will only erect new barriers. --bonadea contributions talk 20:59, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm reasonably sure this is considered uncivil, even in Australia. -- RoySmith (talk) 21:49, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- No. You're dead wrong. the Prime Minister Bob Hawke joshing with Ron Barassi is proverbial in Melbourne at least for illustrating the language governing mateship codes. Gough Whitlam, the most aristocratic yet comradely politician the post-war world ever heard, loved Ciceronian speech-making, but it didn't exclude him from using the word fuck.Paul Keating in the presence of newspaper reporters. I have relatives from downunder who, studying in the US, have endless anecdotes about the misunderstandings arising from using a 'matey' Australian vernacular with Americans who often give the appearance of being much more guarded and socially cautious, at least in public social discourse, as opposed to their government's foreign policy shenanigans. The proposal strikes me as extremely Americanocentric. Has no one ever read Thomas Szasz on the medicalization of social problems, or Michel Foucault on the problems of the carceral mentality behind the medicalization of life itself in modernization. I guess not. Some culturally thin bureaucrats are legislating 'health care' for editors. Jeezus! What a world of wimps. Nishidani (talk) 20:05, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Applying the idea of "mateship" to Wikipedia is treating Wikipedia like a men's space. Some references explaining how "mateship" is a male/masculine concept: [27][28][29] (there are plenty more). Even if one accepts that language that would be considered civil in some contexts might be normal in others, it doesn't follow that we should permit everything in the gray zone here, where we are trying to attract diverse contributors who might be repelled by it. Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:53, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't apply the idea of 'mateship' to wikipedia. I corrected a suggestion about Australian language use. It is not about grey zones either. The assumption in the WMF proposal is that there is a 'universal' code for etiquette, to which they are privy and which they will impose on users from several hundred different cultures. It turns out to be exquisitely americanocentric. A benchmark of honesty in some countries is to look straight into the eyes of the person you're speaking with. In others (Japan) that is taken to be intrusively aggressive. Germaine Greer's contribution to feminism came in good part from her feminist appropriation of the comic, sledging richness of Australian vernacular culture associated till her time with men. The point essentially is, is wiki policy designed to attract people willing to sacrifice their professional time and knowledge to write articles, or is it to prioritize simply recruitment on the basis of sensitivities. In short, are we to mimic the most etiquette-conscious social media so everyone will feel comfortable, whatever they are doing here, or are we to continue in our messy intense passionate individual ways to actually construct something, at some considerable personal cost. Social media may make people 'have a nice day'. They are not known, at the end of the day, for donating to global readers superb articles like Female genital mutilation.Nishidani (talk) 20:52, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Applying the idea of "mateship" to Wikipedia is treating Wikipedia like a men's space. Some references explaining how "mateship" is a male/masculine concept: [27][28][29] (there are plenty more). Even if one accepts that language that would be considered civil in some contexts might be normal in others, it doesn't follow that we should permit everything in the gray zone here, where we are trying to attract diverse contributors who might be repelled by it. Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:53, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- No. You're dead wrong. the Prime Minister Bob Hawke joshing with Ron Barassi is proverbial in Melbourne at least for illustrating the language governing mateship codes. Gough Whitlam, the most aristocratic yet comradely politician the post-war world ever heard, loved Ciceronian speech-making, but it didn't exclude him from using the word fuck.Paul Keating in the presence of newspaper reporters. I have relatives from downunder who, studying in the US, have endless anecdotes about the misunderstandings arising from using a 'matey' Australian vernacular with Americans who often give the appearance of being much more guarded and socially cautious, at least in public social discourse, as opposed to their government's foreign policy shenanigans. The proposal strikes me as extremely Americanocentric. Has no one ever read Thomas Szasz on the medicalization of social problems, or Michel Foucault on the problems of the carceral mentality behind the medicalization of life itself in modernization. I guess not. Some culturally thin bureaucrats are legislating 'health care' for editors. Jeezus! What a world of wimps. Nishidani (talk) 20:05, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- That... has no bearing at all on anything I wrote above. But even so, how would that be usefully dealt with by a new code of conduct? If that is universally uncivil (I am not saying I disagree about that), what use would a "universal" code have that WP:CIVIL doesn't cover? And then there is the question of shades of grey. I would never consider that post a banning offence. A cause for a request to back off and cool down, certainly, but not for blocking or banning, given the full context. You may disagree, perhaps, but the important thing is that it can be a point of contention, it cannot be absolutely codified. (It is past midnight and I hope I make some sense.) --bonadea contributions talk 22:06, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- "it can be a point of contention, it cannot be absolutely codified" and it is not for the WMF various activist-filled teams to codify it in the first place. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:02, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, as an Australian I would interpret that comment as a sign of frustration with the target of the comment, whether warranted or otherwise. Although it may be somewhat abrupt it is not offensive. Anyone taking offense at such a comment in this country is likely to be laughed at. - Nick Thorne talk 00:17, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nick Throne has clarified the Australian perspective. Same goes for India. ∯WBGconverse 04:29, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- That would be regarded as uncivil in Australia and anywhere else. cygnis insignis 11:56, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Except it would not be. The Fair Work Commission looks very poorly on employers who sack employees for swearing at their bosses: consider this 2012 case where a worker sacked for telling his boss to "get fucked" was found to be unfairly dismissed and ordered to be reinstated. Triptothecottage (talk) 23:49, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- That ruing is this case in miniature Swearing might have been a grounds for dismissal if the company didn't give "mixed messages" about its use. The company also gave no due process nor time to respond to the charges leveled. So uncivil behavior doesn't have to be tolerated, but the response should be proportional, and a fair process followed which considers someone's whole record. Which part(s) of the preceding sentence people latch onto has great bearing, I think, in how they view this incident. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:30, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- Except it would not be. The Fair Work Commission looks very poorly on employers who sack employees for swearing at their bosses: consider this 2012 case where a worker sacked for telling his boss to "get fucked" was found to be unfairly dismissed and ordered to be reinstated. Triptothecottage (talk) 23:49, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm reasonably sure this is considered uncivil, even in Australia. -- RoySmith (talk) 21:49, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The fact that the new "Universal code of conduct" and the "New user reporting system" are explicitly mentioned directly in relation to, and only in relation to, gender issues points up the recurring theme that there is a secretive and non-transparent gender-war going on behind the scenes at WMF, T&S, and elsewhere, that has not been either transparent or clear on EN-wiki. Fram appears to have been the first target/victim, via a new power that T&S/WMFOffice gave itself. Fram was given no plausible explanation for the sudden ban/desysop, and the only warning he got was concerning two posts he made in 2018 on the talkpage of someone with serious conflicts of interests with WMF and WMF's Board of Trustees, and who is a gender-warrior. So Fram is the first victim of the secret, non-transparent gender war. Who is next? Softlavender (talk) 23:00, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Softlavender your framing of the situation is very perplexing. First of all, what is a "gender-war" and a "gender-warrior?" Why do you consider efforts to make Wikipedia a better place for women and non-binary people to edit safely and in comfort a problem? Surely framing it this way, and the way that Only in death frames the WMF as "activist-filled teams" does not help to discuss the situation in a calm way. If you assume that the "other side" is full of awful, terrible people out to get you, how can you reach consensus? Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:12, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- You seem to be under the misapprehension the WMF wants or seeks consensus for its actions. Wikipedia seeks consensus amongst its community. The various WMF teams (tech, T&S etc) have shown, over a number of years and situations, no interest in doing anything other than imposing their own will on the community. I mean, you can continue to be a Neville Chamberlain if you want to, but there are only so many times editors can AGF before they look like fools. And that point was past ages ago. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:17, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)If WMF didn't want consensus, they wouldn't seek input--which you can see clearly on the meta front page. And there is no need to call me a "Neville Chamberlain" and practically invoke Godwin's law because I don't agree with you. It just shows that you are arguing from a heated position. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:24, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The WMF has repeatedly sought input then generally ignored it and done what it wants regardless. Tipping the hat at consultation is a standard corporate tactic for doing something you want to do and give the impression you actually care about what other people want. Given that you have basically spent a good amount of text here being an apologist for an organisation that thinks its acceptable to disappear people without given them the courtesy of seeing the evidence against them or the right to defend themselves perhaps you should be less condescending about arguing from a heated position. You should be heated when they come for you in the night. So less of the 'I can see your angry' passive agressive tactics please. If I wanted to be talked to as if I was a woman being told to calm down there are plenty of other misogynistic locations on the internet. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:35, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)If WMF didn't want consensus, they wouldn't seek input--which you can see clearly on the meta front page. And there is no need to call me a "Neville Chamberlain" and practically invoke Godwin's law because I don't agree with you. It just shows that you are arguing from a heated position. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:24, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I never said or implied or assumed anyone or any group is/are "awful, terrible people out to get me", and you failed to address any of my points. Softlavender (talk) 23:22, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- No, you said what I quoted above. What on earth are you talking about with those terms? One of the biggest issues on Wikipedia is the gender gap and the fact that women and nb folks face a good deal of discrimination. Then when they report it, they face additional harassment. This is a pattern I've heard about over and over from people I trust and edit with. So I see good reason to address gender. I've just never met a gender-warrior and if they have a recruiting office, maybe I'll go find out what it's all about. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:26, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Megalibrarygirl: Both things are/can be true here. Women and NB do face additional hurdles and more harassment. At the same time, those additional hurdles and harassment causes a hardening, and a propensity for activism. This activism, is by far, a good thing in most cases. But it also often cause to apply broad generalization that apply in the aggregate to individual cases where nuance is lost.
- I have asked a similar question at Wikimania 2017 in Montreal, about how you could go around telling someone from a minority group you are wrong about something, without causing them to hear I know better because I'm member of the social majority, especially when members of that minority group may not be as versed/skilled in the art of encyclopedia writing due to a difference in background, or want to promote/rectify a situation, when we are required to be neutral. We need to find a way on how to do that, but sadly my question was dismissed as too silly to be worth addressing, and a lot of people in the audience reacted in a sadly predictable 'look at the white man thinking he's better than us' way. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 00:51, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- I totally understand how you felt in that case, Headbomb. My kiddos are biracial. When I was younger and dating, I met my then-boyfriend's sister and boy did I put my foot in it. I thought I could talk about the black experience because I thought I had a "good enough" connection. I could have walked away from the experience thinking that black people didn't want to hear what I had to say and just gotten angry. Instead, I reflected on it. I realized that black people have heard what I, as a white woman, have been saying over and over again. I wasn't adding to the discussion. Now, I listen. That's most often the best thing an ally can do: listen. Minority groups will always tell you when they need your voice. Often, they do. Listening is one of the greatest gifts we can give to one another. I think that's often where minority groups and women are coming from. As to your question: I'd tell a person from a minority group that needs help that you're there for them if they have any questions. You can tell them they are wrong--to not correct mistakes is infantalizing a person, and is patronizing. There's nothing bad about helping others learn to be better editors. It's helpful. Just do it in the way that is respectful. We all want to be treated with respect. That's what I'm advocating. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:34, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well that's the tricky bit. You can listen all you want, at the end of the day, if the minority group is wrong, you still need to click edit and make changes that don't align with what the minority group wants, and they'll go "there they go again, not listening" or similar. Then they blame their not getting what they want on the person making the changes being part of the patriarchy / white hegemony / whatever. I have no real solution for that, and I don't really know anyone that has. But if someone had at least part of a solution that would be great, both for allies and for the people of minority groups. Because reality being what it is, as an ally, when you get accused of being sexist / anti-trans / anti-whatever, or get dismissed simply for being a white man, it is one of the most infuriating things to happen to you, and a lot of goodwill gets burned. It also sadly (and usually disproportionally) turns people against that minority group, providing the anti-whatever with examples of "SEE THEY'RE ALL NUTS! This guy was perfectly reasonable and they accused him of being an anti-whateverist!" allowing them to dismiss all subsequent claims that someone has some anti-whatever bias as invalid, based on the one claim that was invalid. Causing Jussie Smollett types of damage, even if unintentionally, rather than maliciously. Very few people have the moral backbone to still support a movement that has maligned them, sometimes grossly (I have received harassing calls at work, got stalked at Wikimania 2017, and had my personal appearance mocked as result of it), and overlook the transgression because they know a movement can still be right in the aggregate even if the aren't right 100% of the time, or that some of its members are so deep in the echo chamber that they now resort to the same tactics they claim to oppose, out of a sick sense that any men are "fair targets" because some men behave in less-than-exemplary ways.
- However, I know I don't want HR types to adjudicate these sorts of content disputes as if they were harassment. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:16, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- I totally understand how you felt in that case, Headbomb. My kiddos are biracial. When I was younger and dating, I met my then-boyfriend's sister and boy did I put my foot in it. I thought I could talk about the black experience because I thought I had a "good enough" connection. I could have walked away from the experience thinking that black people didn't want to hear what I had to say and just gotten angry. Instead, I reflected on it. I realized that black people have heard what I, as a white woman, have been saying over and over again. I wasn't adding to the discussion. Now, I listen. That's most often the best thing an ally can do: listen. Minority groups will always tell you when they need your voice. Often, they do. Listening is one of the greatest gifts we can give to one another. I think that's often where minority groups and women are coming from. As to your question: I'd tell a person from a minority group that needs help that you're there for them if they have any questions. You can tell them they are wrong--to not correct mistakes is infantalizing a person, and is patronizing. There's nothing bad about helping others learn to be better editors. It's helpful. Just do it in the way that is respectful. We all want to be treated with respect. That's what I'm advocating. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:34, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Megalibrarygirl "Gender warrior" is indeed the wrong term here, and as you say is not the best way to be constructive. What did happen, however, is that the editor concerned wrote a huge amount of seriously sub-par content, and when called out on it (by no means only by Fram - one of the relevant ArbCom cases didn't even mention him) somehow the narrative shifted to some sort of gender issue because many of her articles were about women. The problem with the articles wasn't that they were about women - it was that they were riddled with errors. Black Kite (talk) 23:31, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Black Kite Errors need to be corrected always. I agree with that completely. I don't know about the case you're referencing, so I can't speak to it. :( Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:37, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Megalibrarygirl the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sarah Tuttle might also provide context for why some editors are mistrustful of WIR. From my vantage point, the ability to discuss that article on its merits was taken away when numerous WIR editors adopted the mindset that the deletion discussion itself was a moral wrong and an example of gender bias. Unsurprisingly, personal attacks and strawmen were directed at those who did not fall in line with this mindset. Like many, if not most, Wikipedians, I believe we need more articles about women. Yet I don't think we should accomplish this goal by ignoring or downplaying our notability standards in favor of articles on women, nor do I consider it acceptable to assume sexism on the part of editors who are simply trying to enforce GNG. There was a serious lack of AGF in that AfD, yet the editors who needed to assume good faith were unmovable in their unwillingness to do so. At a certain point, one becomes weary of trying to have a reasoned conversation with those who will only resort to ad hominems and strawmen. And Raystorm's own attempt to make this a gender issue helps me to have a much clearer understanding of the reason why Fram was banned. I completely understand Softlavender's attitude. Lepricavark (talk) 02:03, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Lepricavark: Gender bias is a moral wrong--just as any form of prejudice is. Was everyone on that discussion !voting 'Keep' a member of WIR? I don't think so. One important thing about sexism is that it's part of our culture. I, too, have sexist attitudes. I've learned to recognize them and fight them (most of the time I hope!). We all have them. If someone thinks gender bias is involved, we all owe it to ourselves to look inside and make sure that we aren't acting on the biases that society has given us. Based on the fact that WIR is working to fight bias, I'm not surprised editors are mistrustful: it goes against society's narrative. Whether we want to believe it or not, that's the world we live in. Pretending sexism isn't involved in many situations is just putting our heads in the sand. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:43, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Megalibrarygirl: I never said that gender bias was okay. My objection is that some WIR members (including at least one admin) have the capacity to see gender bias in places where it doesn't even exist and also to project gender bias (or outright sexism) onto those who reject their interpretation. That is a backwards way of thinking. And I'm afraid that the WMF, in the name of pursing gender balance, would and does endorse that backwards way of thinking. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if that type of thinking had something to do with Fram's ban. At this point, I'd be surprised if it didn't. Lepricavark (talk) 02:38, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Lepricavark: Gender bias is a moral wrong--just as any form of prejudice is. Was everyone on that discussion !voting 'Keep' a member of WIR? I don't think so. One important thing about sexism is that it's part of our culture. I, too, have sexist attitudes. I've learned to recognize them and fight them (most of the time I hope!). We all have them. If someone thinks gender bias is involved, we all owe it to ourselves to look inside and make sure that we aren't acting on the biases that society has given us. Based on the fact that WIR is working to fight bias, I'm not surprised editors are mistrustful: it goes against society's narrative. Whether we want to believe it or not, that's the world we live in. Pretending sexism isn't involved in many situations is just putting our heads in the sand. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:43, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Megalibrarygirl the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sarah Tuttle might also provide context for why some editors are mistrustful of WIR. From my vantage point, the ability to discuss that article on its merits was taken away when numerous WIR editors adopted the mindset that the deletion discussion itself was a moral wrong and an example of gender bias. Unsurprisingly, personal attacks and strawmen were directed at those who did not fall in line with this mindset. Like many, if not most, Wikipedians, I believe we need more articles about women. Yet I don't think we should accomplish this goal by ignoring or downplaying our notability standards in favor of articles on women, nor do I consider it acceptable to assume sexism on the part of editors who are simply trying to enforce GNG. There was a serious lack of AGF in that AfD, yet the editors who needed to assume good faith were unmovable in their unwillingness to do so. At a certain point, one becomes weary of trying to have a reasoned conversation with those who will only resort to ad hominems and strawmen. And Raystorm's own attempt to make this a gender issue helps me to have a much clearer understanding of the reason why Fram was banned. I completely understand Softlavender's attitude. Lepricavark (talk) 02:03, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Black Kite Errors need to be corrected always. I agree with that completely. I don't know about the case you're referencing, so I can't speak to it. :( Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:37, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- No, you said what I quoted above. What on earth are you talking about with those terms? One of the biggest issues on Wikipedia is the gender gap and the fact that women and nb folks face a good deal of discrimination. Then when they report it, they face additional harassment. This is a pattern I've heard about over and over from people I trust and edit with. So I see good reason to address gender. I've just never met a gender-warrior and if they have a recruiting office, maybe I'll go find out what it's all about. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:26, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- You seem to be under the misapprehension the WMF wants or seeks consensus for its actions. Wikipedia seeks consensus amongst its community. The various WMF teams (tech, T&S etc) have shown, over a number of years and situations, no interest in doing anything other than imposing their own will on the community. I mean, you can continue to be a Neville Chamberlain if you want to, but there are only so many times editors can AGF before they look like fools. And that point was past ages ago. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:17, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Softlavender your framing of the situation is very perplexing. First of all, what is a "gender-war" and a "gender-warrior?" Why do you consider efforts to make Wikipedia a better place for women and non-binary people to edit safely and in comfort a problem? Surely framing it this way, and the way that Only in death frames the WMF as "activist-filled teams" does not help to discuss the situation in a calm way. If you assume that the "other side" is full of awful, terrible people out to get you, how can you reach consensus? Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:12, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Lepricavark: I don't think you understand what I'm saying here at all. Sorry for not responding right away. I had other issues to deal with. However, I think you are assuming automatically that there is no sexism in situations, when really, quite often there is -- even if you are not aware of it or don't believe it. I do wish that you would AGF in those who are more used to dealing with gender bias, such as WIR members and the at least one admin you speak of. No one is going to wrongfully or flippantly accuse anyone or any situation of gender bias or sexism: that would weaken our position. It's important, however, to call it out where it exists. It's also one of the hardest and scariest things to do: you know that people aren't going to believe you because they don't want to believe there is bias. We want to believe the world is fair and that everything is a meritocracy. It isn't. Bias affects us all. That's why I told you that even I have bias. For example, if someone tells me to imagine a doctor or a scientist, I first think of a man automatically. That's an example of slight, rather benign gender bias. We all have it in our society. Things only become a problem when we can't talk about it. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:59, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Megalibrarygirl: "No one is going to wrongfully or flippantly accuse anyone or any situation of gender bias or sexism: that would weaken our position." Having been on the ass end of such accusations, I can tell you this does indeed happen, and that his does indeed weaken WIR's reputation. I wouldn't necessarily say it's widespread or anywhere near a majority, or anywhere close to the gender bias against women in general, but it's also not non-existent and than there was significant bandwagoning happening. Hence the roundtable idea I brought up on your talk page. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:47, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I disagree, Headbomb. I think that others perceive that gender bias is used flippantly or an a bandwagonesque way. However, I think that false accusations are rare. Instead, it's the fact that we live in a society that's full of gender bias that not everyone gets to see. It reminds me of when I first had a discussion with a black friend in college who told me that he was afraid to run in the city. I was flabbergasted. Why on earth would that be a problem? I'm a white woman, so for me, of course it would never be a problem. But a black, young man would have a different experience. In the same way, many women, nb and even men have experienced gender bias and we call it out. There's a lot of it and it's being reported more and more. So I don't think it's flippant. I just think others don't recognize what we are seeing. I'm really glad you brought up the discussion on my talk page and I do think we need to keep it going. I appreciate your perspective, whether or not I agree fully with your assessment. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 20:10, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- You can disagree, but you would be materially wrong. I (along other editors) were told point blank that we couldn't possibly have a legitimate interest in a topic because it dealt with feminism , that we didn't know anything about the topic, and that our goals were to willfully 'keep women down', solely based on us not being in agreement with a group of women while happening to be men. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:26, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I disagree, Headbomb. I think that others perceive that gender bias is used flippantly or an a bandwagonesque way. However, I think that false accusations are rare. Instead, it's the fact that we live in a society that's full of gender bias that not everyone gets to see. It reminds me of when I first had a discussion with a black friend in college who told me that he was afraid to run in the city. I was flabbergasted. Why on earth would that be a problem? I'm a white woman, so for me, of course it would never be a problem. But a black, young man would have a different experience. In the same way, many women, nb and even men have experienced gender bias and we call it out. There's a lot of it and it's being reported more and more. So I don't think it's flippant. I just think others don't recognize what we are seeing. I'm really glad you brought up the discussion on my talk page and I do think we need to keep it going. I appreciate your perspective, whether or not I agree fully with your assessment. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 20:10, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Megalibrarygirl: "No one is going to wrongfully or flippantly accuse anyone or any situation of gender bias or sexism: that would weaken our position." Having been on the ass end of such accusations, I can tell you this does indeed happen, and that his does indeed weaken WIR's reputation. I wouldn't necessarily say it's widespread or anywhere near a majority, or anywhere close to the gender bias against women in general, but it's also not non-existent and than there was significant bandwagoning happening. Hence the roundtable idea I brought up on your talk page. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:47, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Lepricavark: I don't think you understand what I'm saying here at all. Sorry for not responding right away. I had other issues to deal with. However, I think you are assuming automatically that there is no sexism in situations, when really, quite often there is -- even if you are not aware of it or don't believe it. I do wish that you would AGF in those who are more used to dealing with gender bias, such as WIR members and the at least one admin you speak of. No one is going to wrongfully or flippantly accuse anyone or any situation of gender bias or sexism: that would weaken our position. It's important, however, to call it out where it exists. It's also one of the hardest and scariest things to do: you know that people aren't going to believe you because they don't want to believe there is bias. We want to believe the world is fair and that everything is a meritocracy. It isn't. Bias affects us all. That's why I told you that even I have bias. For example, if someone tells me to imagine a doctor or a scientist, I first think of a man automatically. That's an example of slight, rather benign gender bias. We all have it in our society. Things only become a problem when we can't talk about it. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:59, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- {ec} I think that there is a universal concept of civility. We all know when we've been treated poorly. We can communicate the issue to those who cause the harm. Many people at that point will say, "I didn't know this caused you harm. I will stop." But members of the community decide that the harm doesn't count because it wouldn't bother them or that the editor should just not feel the feelings they feel and continue to act in ways that hurt that person, that's not civil. What bothers a person will vary by culture, generation and even their emotional state on a particular day. That doesn't mean that I get to decide that what hurt someone is or is not valid. Only they can decide that. And the outcome should clearly be the offending party please back off. I think there are ways to codify this. We do it every day in the real world. On the job, as a manager I constantly hear complaints that would not personally bother me. However, I do find ways to empathize and respond in such a way that the issue is resolved without escalation. Not all issues are resolved the way a person wants, but I do resolve them fairly. We can do that here, too. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:20, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Megalibrarygirl, I think that works to a degree. If someone told me "I'd really prefer if you didn't use the word ________ when you talk to me", sure, I'll try to accommodate that. On the other hand, if it's "It really hurts my feelings when you nominate an article I wrote for deletion", but I believe the articles in question do in fact fail inclusion criteria and need to be deleted, the response is going to be on the order of "I'm sorry you feel that way, but I will continue to do that if the need continues to arise." So, to a degree, such personal requests can be honored, but there will come many occasions when they cannot be. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:50, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think you bring up a good distinction, Seraphimblade. Actions that are part of the process that help us build and edit the encyclopedia can't and shouldn't be circumvented just because someone says their feelings are hurt. I think a code of conduct would focus on the interactions we have while doing the editing. If someone says their feelings are hurt because an article is nominated for deletion, we can still be sympathetic (if you wish) to their feelings, but it's not going to stop the rightful process of editing the encyclopedia. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:52, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- "And the outcome should clearly be the offending party please back off." that is ... very very dangerous to codify, especially when it comes down to tone policing. Should this not have been written because it offended some people? Should its author have been sanctioned? A lot of activism and progress is caused by people who disturb the status quo, and who aren't afraid to speak up with words that would cause Victorian society to implode. Different cultures have different standards, and I'm not ready to have the American HR Culture become the only acceptable culture allowed. This is why Silver Linings Playbook is rated R (under 17 must be accompanied by adults) in the US and Tous public (everyone) in France, instead of having a United Nations rating that has force of law everywhere on the globe. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 01:00, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- I cannot recall an event when this approach ended in anything but a fiasco. It sounds good - lets have a system that has looks at each and every case individually and in the end enforces decision based on the observation of behaviour. But without codified and unified set of rules, it falls apart like a house of cards. One meter shall be applied to one person, another on another one due to subjective nature of such hearing. The rules will not be set up as guideline of what not to do, and what penalty to be had once the line is crossed, but will try to muddle the waters into basically "the judge, jury and prosecution in one will make a decision". Especially if core principle is that offended party gets to decide which action consist of an offence. I mean, is that not what the discussion about Fran v Laura edits has been about?
- Perhaps there indeed is an universal understanding of civility. In that case, you will be able to barely fill up a stub with it. Everything outside of it differs depending on a time, place, culture and many other variable factors. And I very much doubt that what WMF is cooking is unified subset of rules that are already in force. Rather, as is often the case with new CoCs, it will decide to up the ante over the heads of community, quoting imaginery concept of safe spaces or whatnot, thus already appropriating position of moral superiority. Lovely. EllsworthSK (talk) 01:16, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Megalibrarygirl: I often agree with your position, but please believe me when I say - speaking from a position of actual linguistic expertise - that there isn't "a universal concept of civility". I'm not going to post another wall of text to try to prove that, because I already tried to do so above. It doesn't have to be a problem, as long as it is openly acknowledged and accepted that notions of civility vary a lot - isn't that a more likely way to make communications work smoothly, than setting up a set of rules and telling people from dozens of countries, speaking hundreds of languages, that they have to adjust their thinking about what is "civil"? After the 2011 survey, the WMF talked about the need to hire more staff based in different parts of the world to increase diversity, and the need to attract a more globally diverse set of editors to get more voices heard. A universal code of civility could directly counteract that work, unless it is phrased in such general terms so as to be useless - I'd love to be proven wrong here, but unless the point of departure is that there is no universal law of what is and isn't civil, I don't see how it could be helpful rather than harmful.
- As for harassment, it is indeed the person who is being harassed who has the first right of interpretation (the silly English language has no word for that, but there is one in Swedish - tolkningsföreträde), and to deny people the right to have their reports heard and taken seriously is fatal. Of course. But unfortunately, what we very often see is people feeling harassed or insulted by editors who scrupulously stick to the "comment on edits, not on editors" policy, as discussed above. A lot of the flak that en.wiki gets comes from us adhering to notability and verifiability policies, and as long as we are an encyclopedia, that's not going to change.
- Another question: above you talk about
efforts to make Wikipedia a better place for women and non-binary people to edit safely and in comfort
- which is unambiguously a good thing to do. But how would you address the fact that women have expressed on this very page that what the WMF are proposing make them less safe and less likely to want to participate and make their unique voices (unique because they are individuals, not because they are women) part of the conversation? Who has the first right of interpretation of the collective experience of women, when we don't even know which editors are male, female, nb, genderqueer, or something else? Is it unreasonable for me to assume that again, it is going to be a US-American view of what women want, a view that is often deeply offensive to other people (regardless of gender), and directly excludes a large number of people who identify as women? --bonadea contributions talk 09:10, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Another question: above you talk about
I am kind of reminded of another incident (this time on a course) where an immigrant engaged in behavior that was sexual harassment, but not where he came from. Now I do get that we cannot (and should not) impose our values on other countries (the white mans burden all all that). BUt I can see how a corporate entity might want to impose a given set of values on its staff (after all whilst you may not employ child labour in your base nation, the publicity of you doing so in wheerevaistan will still affect your market image in your base nation). Moreover it also would make it easier for those who are not from WASP nations to come here and not fall foul of our standards (such as rules on notability or OR, let alone civility). If we have one set of standards no one can plead "but not from where I come from" as a justification.Slatersteven (talk) 09:27, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: I think you bring up some very good points. I'm trying to think of a way that we can all have a universal system of civility, but clearly there will always be situations where we fall short. I don't think that a universal civility process has to be perfect: it just has to work well enough most of the time. For other situations, as you rightly point out, we will have to handle differently somehow. I'm not sure I'm the right person to do that: I'm a librarian and it's not my area of expertise. But I want to start the discussion and not give up on the idea just because it's going to be hard to figure out. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:58, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- As I said rules only work (and are only fair) if they are inflexible. Else you get "well he is my mate I will protect him" mentality. So no I did not say (and do not agree with the idea of) we have to take into account "context", cultural; or otherwise, ("well I can tell him to fuck off, but he cannot tell me to"), quite the opposite. What I said was that any corporate entity has to take into account publicity, and how that impacts on its operations. So ultimately any code of conduct has to be informed by where the company has its biggest operations (or its base). It does not matter if Barry come from foregnistan, it does not give him a right to ignore rules on (for example) personal space, culture be damed.Slatersteven (talk) 08:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think the candour in the above comments clarifies one view, a sort of undercurrent in the outrage that has been less frankly stated because of its ugliness. cygnis insignis 12:18, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- As I said rules only work (and are only fair) if they are inflexible. Else you get "well he is my mate I will protect him" mentality. So no I did not say (and do not agree with the idea of) we have to take into account "context", cultural; or otherwise, ("well I can tell him to fuck off, but he cannot tell me to"), quite the opposite. What I said was that any corporate entity has to take into account publicity, and how that impacts on its operations. So ultimately any code of conduct has to be informed by where the company has its biggest operations (or its base). It does not matter if Barry come from foregnistan, it does not give him a right to ignore rules on (for example) personal space, culture be damed.Slatersteven (talk) 08:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Slatersteven: I think you bring up some very good points. I'm trying to think of a way that we can all have a universal system of civility, but clearly there will always be situations where we fall short. I don't think that a universal civility process has to be perfect: it just has to work well enough most of the time. For other situations, as you rightly point out, we will have to handle differently somehow. I'm not sure I'm the right person to do that: I'm a librarian and it's not my area of expertise. But I want to start the discussion and not give up on the idea just because it's going to be hard to figure out. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:58, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- There are certainly hurdles to trying to produce some kind of universal code of civility, and if we're pedantic about it then a truly universal one can't exist - because civility means different things to different cultures, backgrounds, and even individuals. But we should not be pedantic and should not throw our hands up and say "We can't have any code then, and have accept everything". Similar to the way a lot of this dispute has led to polarizing of positions, this is another issue where the answer is simply not black or white. The choice we face is not between a perfect code and no code at all. If we should come up with one that is not in keeping with the cultural and/or personal values of some individual editors (which is inevitable), then I think it can be entirely reasonable for those individuals to be expected to moderate their civility approach to match the code. I've been in plenty of different cultural environments, and I've adjusted my approach to civility to fit - I certainly don't go to, say, another country and expect its natives to accept my way of doing things (unlike, sadly, a lot of my compatriots). Some of the civility problems to date have surely been due to different individuals approaching the same issue from different cultural and personal directions and finding each other's approaches lacking - and there's been no central reference to direct people in such cross-cultural situations. I confess I have my doubts about how well a universal code of civility can be developed, and I do get twitchy when I hear of such things. But at this stage, I'm withholding my judgment until I see what it looks like - anything else would be unfair. After all, nobody has yet come up with the faintest working idea of how to deal with incivility, and in many cases we're just getting worse at it. And we have to get better. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:58, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it be simpler, more effective, and certainly more pertinent to the present case, to develop a code of what is and isn't harassment, rather then attempting to codify "civility", which is not only much more difficult, but is also a much less important issue? It would also be in line with any legal concerns the WMF might have. After all, it seems unlikely that the Foundation would have any reasonable legal exposure for not blocking or banning an editor who was merely impolite, as opposed to one who was actually harassing another editor in the legal sense. Let the WMF define "harassment" as precisely as possible, so that the community and ArbCom have a standard to apply, then T&S can step in if it's not properly enforced at the community level -- but only when it opens the Foundation up to potential legal action. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:45, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- the Issue is not rules, but uneven enforcement I think.Slatersteven (talk) 08:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
"A universal code of conduct? That is very scary."
Almost as scary as a universal policy on paid editing. Oh, wait, we managed to handle that - including WMF-recognised local exceptions - with zero drama. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:49, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
New "User reporting system"
For those of us with too much time on our hands, I've put together some links to what I've been able to find out about the background to the initiative to create a new User reporting system. I've added a few quotes to give a flavour of each document.
- Start here
- m:Community health initiative/User reporting system consultation 2019 – "The Wikimedia Foundation's Community health initiative plans to design and build a new user reporting system to make it easier for people experiencing harassment and other forms of abuse to provide accurate information to the appropriate channel for action to be taken."
- Volunteer liaisons
- m:Community health initiative/User reporting system consultation/Volunteer sign up page – Twelve volunteers signed up to be liaison for wikis or affiliates.
- Overview of research about English Wikipedia dispute resolution and harassment
- Wikipedia:Community health initiative on English Wikipedia/Research on dispute resolution and harassment – "quantitative data analysis of posts to AN/I ... 533 total ANI cases, 315 of which were resolved ... 40 cases included the keyword '3RR', 26 'COI', 18 'harassing', 14 'hounding' and 22 'boomerang'".
- Research about ANI
- Wikipedia:Community health initiative on English Wikipedia/Research about Administrators' Noticeboard Incidents – "This survey is intended to understand community sentiments around AN/I, and will not lead to immediate or imposed changes to AN/I from the Foundation. Rather the purpose of the survey is to fill in gaps in data that could lead to on wiki discussions about possible improvements to how AN/I cases are managed. Any changes would need to be backed by the volunteer community on the English Wikipedia."
- Admin confidence
- Wikipedia:Community health initiative on English Wikipedia/Administrator confidence survey/Results − "The Anti-Harassment Tools Team is interested in measuring how admins feel about different kinds of conflict specific activities (wikihounding, vandalism, harassment, sockpuppetry), how confident they feel spotting, mitigating, and intervening in these case types, and if they feel supported with tools and other resources from the Wikimedia Foundation." See especially Comments about policy, reporting, harassment, community culture.
- Harvard Negotiation and Mediation Clinical Program
- Recommendations on the Development of Anti-Harassment Tools and Behavioural Dispute Resolution Systems for Wikimedia (pdf) — "Findings ... Current systems for reporting, managing, and evaluating user incidents do not appear to be effective at preventing harassment. "
- Reporting systems summary
- Reporting systems on English Wikipedia (pdf) – "the Wikimedia community highly prizes transparency. For reporting systems, this is interpreted as publicly-viewable processes, outcomes, and the identities of the involved users. Transparency in this case is not just a design consideration put into place to achieve a certain kind of efficiency or mode of operation, but a value to be strived for in the way the entire system operates. Because the current reporting system aligns with a certain dominant interpretation of transparency, the system engenders a feeling of trust from its users. However, we know that the same commitment to transparency can be harmful and serves to chill the participation of other users who are not properly served by the system as it stands. Our current conundrum is the fact that, whatever changes we recommend, it must adhere to these values even as we change key features, otherwise it will not be trustworthy."
Hands up everybody who wasn't even aware that we had an"Anti-Harassment Tools Team" [raises hand]. But that last one is the real kicker, isn't it? I hope somebody will ask Jan if he read the report commissioned for his team, and if he did, what he made of "whatever changes we recommend, it must adhere to these values even as we change key features, otherwise it will not be trustworthy."
Given that clear warning dated November 2018, you have to wonder why he didn't see the current shitstorm coming. --RexxS (talk) 17:56, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm quite sure he saw it coming. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- [raises hand]. I hope you're wrong Boing!, because if the WMF knew full-well what the reaction would be, and then did it anyway, that's gross neglect for the relationship between the WMF and the community, and we need to respond with some form of direct protest (Freeze the Main Page?) Tazerdadog (talk) 18:24, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- However the new power structure was introduced, what do you reckon are the chances there wouldn't be a shitstorm reaction? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:50, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The introduction process should have been "Ask first, get a consensus for what editors want to see, and then do that." You'll notice when they followed that process with Visual Editor and MediaViewer, their deployments went very smoothly, whereas when they failed to, it blew up in everyone's face. So, basically, ask us what we want done, don't tell us what will be done. And given those earlier instances, they should already know that. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:59, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- They wouldn't have got a consensus for what they want, and they were going to do it anyway, so asking us first and then overriding the objections would have probably made it worse. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Simple enough solution, then: Don't do it. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:15, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- As I say, there were going to do it anyway. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:20, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I write better content today and am a more efficient editor because Visual Editor exists. A consensus based community, like we are, is going to be (notice the lowercase letter here) conservative by its nature. Overall this is good - it's why we get praised for the quality of our coverage of difficult topics. However, there are going to be times when this conservatism is going to harm the project in the long-run. Figuring out how to thread that needle of respecting our norms, traditions, and culture, while opening the door to continued viability as a project is the needle the foundation should be trying to thread. And because it's a challenge they're going to get it wrong a bunch. And when they do we should rightly criticize them for it and they should learn from it. But that doesn't mean they should just stop trying to do the bigger kinds of changes that promote longterm health. In this case they've gotten something very wrong and I worry what, if anything, they're going to take away from all this. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:29, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, IIRC, the core of the problem was not VE itself, but introducing a highly buggy VE, that caused more issues than it solved. There are major differences between today's VE and the one, that was first launched.
- A software product must be stable to minimum extents, before throwing it to the masses -- that (apparently) evaded the WMF developers. ∯WBGconverse 04:36, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Winged Blades of Godric I was indeed not active at that point so I don't know if it was a minimally viable product or not - I am guessing it wasn't just from the animosity that so many feel and you're right it shouldn't have been introduced. But my point was the foundation wasn't wrong to develop it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: Besides the initial bugs, they tried to enforce it us. VE was at some point plainly enabled for all users and I had to turn it off. Mediaviewer was just enabled. Standard setting for beta-features is, IIRC, to standard enable any beta feature UNLESS you chose not to. Remember SuperPutsch. WMF has been enforcing stuff on us for a long time becuase they think we need it, With VE, in its buggy status, it was not 'hey guys, we have this new gadget, for those interested please try it and tell us what you think. And if you think it is good enough and there is community consensus, you can turn it on <here>.' (personal complaint, they refuse to work on material that is easily 10 years outdated, source of regular complaints, and would not even do it if it would get enough suppert in the annual Community Wishlist).
- Seen its history, I would NOT be surprised that a meta-RfC would gain sufficient traction to throw out WMF or to seriously restrict its powers (though I doubt we are int time for that - they might just block everyone who is against them). --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:54, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- For reference for those wondering what the controversy the thread above is discussing was: WP:VisualEditor/RFC. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 07:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Winged Blades of Godric I was indeed not active at that point so I don't know if it was a minimally viable product or not - I am guessing it wasn't just from the animosity that so many feel and you're right it shouldn't have been introduced. But my point was the foundation wasn't wrong to develop it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Simple enough solution, then: Don't do it. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:15, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- They wouldn't have got a consensus for what they want, and they were going to do it anyway, so asking us first and then overriding the objections would have probably made it worse. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- The introduction process should have been "Ask first, get a consensus for what editors want to see, and then do that." You'll notice when they followed that process with Visual Editor and MediaViewer, their deployments went very smoothly, whereas when they failed to, it blew up in everyone's face. So, basically, ask us what we want done, don't tell us what will be done. And given those earlier instances, they should already know that. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:59, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- However the new power structure was introduced, what do you reckon are the chances there wouldn't be a shitstorm reaction? Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:50, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- [raises hand]. I hope you're wrong Boing!, because if the WMF knew full-well what the reaction would be, and then did it anyway, that's gross neglect for the relationship between the WMF and the community, and we need to respond with some form of direct protest (Freeze the Main Page?) Tazerdadog (talk) 18:24, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I guess I just don't see how we go from superprotect to this (and I don't like bringing up names here but Jan used superprotect). --Rschen7754 18:27, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Hands down; read about it in the usual places. isaacl (talk) 18:39, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Isaacl, have you read of the User-reporting-system consultation? Please point me to the relevant thread. Reagrds, ∯WBGconverse 19:23, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- I recall seeing this announcement of the community health initiative but never watchlisted the corresponding page (and its talk page), so I've not kept abreast of the progress in this area. isaacl (talk) 06:13, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Isaacl, have you read of the User-reporting-system consultation? Please point me to the relevant thread. Reagrds, ∯WBGconverse 19:23, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Hands up everybody who wasn't even aware that we had an"Anti-Harassment Tools Team" [raises hand].
As a shameless plug, for things like this I recommend subscribing to Wikipedia:Administrators' newsletter. The efforts of the anti-harassment tools team to improve the blocking interface have been publicized there on several occasions last year: e.g. Jan 2018, Aug 2018, Oct 2018. Mz7 (talk) 19:54, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Doc James: - were you aware of this (or the team in general) WMore importantly, what do you think of the discussion above: Should the WMF have sought (and obeyed) cross-project consensus first, or should they implement changes they feel are necessary even if the community disagrees? Nosebagbear (talk) 19:55, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Was aware of the team. They have been working on tools such as partial blocks for EN WP. Am hoping they would also look at improving the CU interface (but as I am not a CU not sure if they are). User:Nosebagbear been busy at work today and need a bit of time to catch up. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:06, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, no worries - I'm sure you came out of the board meeting to an avalanche of pings - plus everything else that draws your time Nosebagbear (talk) 23:09, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
- [Just a small aside...] Gee, all I want to do is edit/create Wikipedia articles. Wasn't aware of the AHT Team or the Community health Initiative either... Shearonink (talk) 18:33, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, no worries - I'm sure you came out of the board meeting to an avalanche of pings - plus everything else that draws your time Nosebagbear (talk) 23:09, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Does enwiki have/want a "Volunteer to be a liaison to your wiki community or Wikimedia affiliate"?
See the link mentioned above: m:Community health initiative/User reporting system consultation/Volunteer sign up page- I don't see anyone representing us and I'm not sure how they would do it in any case. The job seems immense and pretty important. m:Community health initiative/User reporting system consultation 2019 Thanks to User:RexxS for drawing attention to it. I'll admit I knew about it but wasn't about to volunteer! Doug Weller talk 16:04, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
A suggested resolution
Some thoughts on how we might collectively deescalate the situation. Of course, if there is significant additional information that remains unknown to us, this might not work. But if the facts are basically as the community has come to understand them, how about this plan:
- The Office terminates Fram's ban. We don't argue any more about whether it was right or wrong, legitimate or outrageous, although everyone can maintain their individual feelings about that. But the ban is just terminated as of now, on the grounds that (1) it seems to remain counterproductive to Foundation-community relations, and (2) one presumes that any "clean up your act" message that was intended for Fram has been received.
- If there is a specific editor or two with whom the Office believes Fram was interacting problematically, Fram quasi-voluntarily agrees, without admitting any wrongdoing, to stay away from that editor(s). The editor's or editors' name(s) do not need to be disclosed on-wiki.
- Fram also quasi-voluntarily agrees to improve his decorum a little bit. It may only be a surface issue, but there really are better ways to say "I disagree with ArbCom's action" than "Fuck you, ArbCom" (and I would say that even if I hadn't been a long-time ArbCom member myself).
- The community hopefully accepts that even if this one was mishandled, Trust and Safety actions are generally taken with good intentions, and that there is a reason many of them can't be publicly discussed. As Opabinia regalis reminded us in her comments on the arbitration request, "T&S is these people." Most of them come from the Wikipedia communities, many from this community. They're not perfect, but they didn't accept jobs at the Foundation for the purpose of perpetrating a hostile takeover.
- The Office opens, or reopens, or expands a dialog with the community about what it is trying to accomplish and how to get there (assuming it's somewhere it's desirable to be). It's been pointed out that various consultations have been open for awhile, but have flown under the radar of many editors, and certainly were not expected to culminate in this type of action. WMF, if you didn't before, you have our attention now. What are you trying to do, and how do you plan to go about doing it?
Comments appreciated. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:18, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Endorse
- All of that sounds perfectly reasonable to me. 28bytes (talk) 18:28, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Samesies. nableezy - 18:29, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse Sounds good to me. If the Office is acting in good faith, I do not see why they would not accept this. Enigmamsg 18:30, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse as a fair compromise Atlantic306 (talk) 18:41, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse Fair. CoolSkittle (talk) 18:52, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse as a reasonable and good faith way out of this mess.--Mojo Hand (talk) 19:03, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse I like the good faith part and it being reasonable.Yger (talk) 19:11, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse Seems a reasonable way to try to walk back this situation. Jheald (talk) 19:16, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Generally Endorse If behavior is inappropriate, WMFOffice should bring it and evidence to the appropriate board immediately (such as ArbCom). The undoing of the ban need not be instantaneous if exigent circumstances are present (such as a death threat and WMF is working with local authorities). Buffs (talk) 19:20, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse This feels reasonable and responsive to issues on multiple sides and so I support it. I would hope that this reasonableness would receive a positive response from the foundation rather than it being seen as a negotiating posture (e.g. "well you you asked for immediate reinstatement and we said a year so let's compromise on six months"). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:32, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse Perfect / brilliant. We should mention this in the other places that it is being discussed. North8000 (talk) 19:34, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Reluctant Endorse but pending BoT statement. It might be very plausible that Fram actually did something quite serious enough (in which case, the ban shall stand) or that the staff were plainly incompetent in a bid to discipline and micromanage the community. We need to learn the rough details. Also, echo Headbomb; fuck an institution will be somewhere around 2, on a scale of 10, if we are rating various forms of harassment and bullying. ∯WBGconverse 19:38, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good plan, and much more sensible than the ArbCom case request. Headbomb makes a good point though. —Kusma (t·c) 19:42, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse with changes: I do admit that Headbomb has a point. However, having read through enough AN/I and AN threads with Fram's involvement, I'm sure that Fram can improve somewhat in terms of decorum. At least, I do hope so. Now, setting that point aside: I'd like to amend the proposed resolution to provide for the opening of an Arbitration Committee case, pursuant to Fram's request, as seen here. Of course, I may be able to accept it without this change. —Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 19:43, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- I've got a few issues with a detail or two (for example, if I understand right, WMF would refuse to tell Fram who to avoid, though I imagine he could guess as well as the rest of us by now). The overarching idea of the WMF vacating the ban, leaving any action (if needed) against Fram to en.wiki processes, and then having this much talked-about, calm, no-deadline, respectful discussion seems better than what we have now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:45, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse with similar qualms and wimpy caveats as Headbomb and Floquenbeam. But peace matters. Thank you, Newyorkbrad! ---Sluzzelin talk 19:50, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse Sounds perfectly reasonable. (if I may, as I'm mainly active in German-language Wikipedia and on Commons, so I don't feel wholly part of English-language Wikipedia's community - although my first edits were made here, back in 2003 :-) ) Gestumblindi (talk) 19:52, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse per Floquenbeam. Haukur (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - with ArbCom case - The main issue here is the question of whether and where our policies are deficient, and that is something the ArbCom is best equipped to figure out (as this may well require assessing past cases where private communications were involved). That said, such an ArbCom case should stick to fact-finding on this subject and interpreting that as much as possible to make recommendations to the community. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 19:58, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Makes sense to me as a possible option--Ymblanter (talk) 20:01, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Reluctant Endorse I view any action that leads to Fram no longer being office-banned as progress, although much of this proposal accepts a level of office involvement in the community that I, and probably many other users, feel is excessive. * Pppery * it has begun... 20:07, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- A fair assessment, and if they come out of the board meeting with something that throws more fuel on the fire it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect this option to be taken off the table. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 20:27, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse with an additional request: if and when an editor with an instance of problematic editing such as WP:CopyVio is identified, en-WP admins and editors – including Fram – may scrutinize other edits of that editor. WMFOffice accepts that this is neither stalking nor evidence of hostility or harassment, rather such efforts are in good faith and necessary to maintain or improve the "Quality and Reliability" of the en-WP. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:30, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse as a first step. In my opinion, this focusses too much on the individual case, not on the general relationship between the foundation and the communities. But it might rebuild some bridges and de-escalate the situation to allow for a constructive dialogue. Thanks for a useful contribution, Brad! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:31, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse. This seems reasonable. Neutral on ArbCom case. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 20:51, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse as a way forward, not perfect, but hopefully acceptable by all parties. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:54, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- +1. Also support the ArbCom case. --GRuban (talk) 21:08, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - sensible compromise. PhilKnight (talk) 21:25, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse as a positive way forward. However, bullet 4 sticks in my craw. The only insight we have into whether Trust and Safety's actions were taken with good intentions are the actual results of their actions, and their written response. The results are what they are, but the written response and inability to engage in meaningful dialog falls short. Trust and Safety is a very serious role for an organization to undertake. A company with $100+ million in annual revenue has no business staffing such a department with amateurs. Thank you NYB for trying to turn this in a positive direction.- MrX 🖋 21:43, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse noting that Fram suggested a less lenient compromise the better part of a week ago, now. EllenCT (talk) 21:49, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse too many hours have already been spent on this. If WMF wants to destroy Wikipedia, I guess no one can stop them; but we can at least try, Huldra (talk) 22:18, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse, with the disclaimer that I haven't been able to keep up with all the relevant pages. - Dank (push to talk) 22:20, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse. In the end, regardless of what Fram has or hasn't done, this has been appallingly badly handled by T&S. Absolutely no-one disagrees with global bans for those editors who have violated certain community norms, especially where that concerns such things child protection or serious off-wiki harassment. And there are plenty of those. But here, we have the WMF granting themselves a new "partial ban" ability, where such issues are not as serious as those I've just mentioned. Who is the first target on enwiki? Someone who has been a serious (and usually accurate) critic of the WMF. Whether or not that is bad, it looks terrible. And especially when the diff given as a main reason for their ban is telling ArbCom to "fuck off". A lot of editors have said that, many times, in many different ways. We don't ban them for it. And we never should. Black Kite (talk) 22:38, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse, per Huldra. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:47, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse A sensible path. I'll resist the temptation to suggest any tweaks but will note that the proposal does not address the issue of Fram's admin-bit and whether the de-sysop should be endorsed, overturned, or decided through a fresh RFA. Abecedare (talk) 22:50, 17 June 2019 (UTC).
- Endorse The base line from which we have to operate is good will and good faith on both sides - because without that, this project is already systemically screwed and will crumble (and it doesn't matter whether that ultimately happens via bottom-up or top-down processes). This suggested bundle provides room for everyone to demonstrate that; roll back the drama; undo a few bad decisions; and allow the community to have a calm go at improving some things. Good effort by Newyorkbrad, and thanks for thinking it through. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 22:52, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse It's a good way to bring all of this chaos to an end. I don't think telling Fram to be more careful will fix their civility issues, but at least it's progress. ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 23:03, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse as a sensible way forward. T. Canens (talk) 23:34, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse in general, and especially the last point. While it will be good if this particular issue gets resolved and we can stop seeing if we can set a page size record, we have to resolve things going forward so that this will not happen again (or, if we decide it should, it happens in a way that will not cause a blowup like this). I don't think anyone, WMF included, wants a repeat here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:53, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse A sensible compromise. An de facto IBAN against any complainants who felt they've been harassed (the mere existence of which remains unconfirmed), paired with a general civility mandate, which would presumably address the root of the ban. If the Foundation is to take a no-compromise approach even in the most contentious situation, they should be able and willing to justify that decision, which they have refused to do, in spite of the fact that basic transparency and privacy protection are not and have never been mutually exclusive. Either the ban is outright unjust, or it is arguably just but the community disagrees with it. In that case, the Foundation should have no problem accepting a reasonable alternative offered by the community, and that is exactly what this is. ~Swarm~ {sting} 00:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse per Swarm and so many above. Miniapolis 00:39, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse At this point, WMF has to make a good faith step forward if they're ever going to start regaining our trust. Platitudes and corporate double-speak aren't it. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 01:54, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse Also, can we make two subheadings for those who "endorse" vs "oppose"? It's harder to gauge consensus this way. (I'd move all of them but I think that would be too disruptive.) Rockstonetalk to me! 01:59, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse Although I'm not overly optimistic.©Geni (talk) 02:01, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Endorse I had little hope any productive change would come out of the discussion, but this is a good start. – Teratix ₵ 02:07, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Reluctant endorse per Black Kite. I considered opposing because I'm not persuaded that Fram has done anything to warrant even an unofficial IBAN, but an oppose would seemingly put me in the same camp as the Fram-bashers, and I'm not interested in that. I'm also amused that some keep bringing up the Terms of Use as if that's some kind of magic bullet. Yeah, we know about the Terms of Use, and we still aren't going to let ham-handed actions from the WMF go unchallenged. That should be obvious by now. Lepricavark (talk) 02:28, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - Whether Fram's activity on the English Wikipedia warrants action is something that needs to be address by the appropriate channels. WMF overstepped in attempting to circumvent that. - Aoidh (talk) 02:38, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse dot points 4 & 5. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:39, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - a possible way forward for the community. starship.paint (talk) 04:00, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse. On the point of "these people", I would also request the WMF explain what training/education is given to members of the team. Having former editors among them is a great idea, but what steps have been added to get them to the point from being an ordinary editor to such a crucial and sensitive role. (And globally it's an increasingly high-profile and important one, given the same type of departments popping up in Facebook, Twitter, etc). - SchroCat (talk) 04:21, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse I'd also like to see an assurance from the WMF that they have cleaned their act up to at least our standards, and that the WMF will no longer stand by staff who make personal attacks, on IRC or elsewhere. It would be nice if they also assured us that they had forgotten it was Fram who threatened to block a WMFer for personal attacks and assured us that their block of him was not revenge. As for the interaction ban, yes T&S may not be able to tell Fram who the complainant was, so that bit may not be possible. But if they deemed that the incident only merited a 12 month single project restriction on Fram, T&S presumably did not consider that any harassment merited a longer term interaction ban such as the global, permanent bans that they give harassers. ϢereSpielChequers 04:47, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - Not as rough-and-tough an outcome as I would prefer, which would involve a unilateral retreat of WMF from matters that are not within their purview followed by some sort of internal penalty against those WMF employees who threw gasoline on the fire in the first place; but, all things considered, probably the best outcome we can hope for at this juncture, given the incredibly weak performance of the WMF Board and Arbcom. Carrite (talk) 05:00, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse. Let me be clear. I am NOT happy if this is the outcome. This leaves unresolved major questions involving COI, the communities trust in the WMF, and how we prevent similar scenarios from re-occuring. I will note that point 5 is insufficient, and also the most important one here. The foundation exists to serve the community, and that relationship must be respected, or we're wasting each others time. That said, this is a compromise negotiation and a good compromise makes everyone unhappy, so even though I'd have liked to see the result include a more major wakeup call to the WMF, I can hold my nose and accept this. Tazerdadog (talk) 05:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - This seems sensible. Killiondude (talk) 05:16, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse AGF --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:40, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse. I am not happy with the communication or action from Trust & Safety so far, and this would restore my willingness to continue to perform administrative work on en Wikipedia.-gadfium 05:46, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse Absconded Northerner (talk) 05:48, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse a sensible compromise if all parties agree. Hut 8.5 06:53, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse Seems sensible. talk to !dave 07:37, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse- A reasonable compromise that will allow everyone to walk away having made their point and learned something: The WMF needs to understand that enforcing smiles and sunshine with an iron fist is not going to work here. We've adopted a culture of communication- and it's served us well- that forthright language, for the sake of the actual article contents, is welcome and expected. Handing out arbitrary and capricious bans to alter that culture ultimately will not work. All you'll accomplish is to lose a lot of good editors and make everyone hate you. At the same time, fixating on certain editors and their (admittedly dubious) edits can border on cruelty even if that's not the intent. Admins and rank-and-file editors can definitely work on our approach there. Reyk YO! 07:45, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse. I guess this is a sensible compromise. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 08:10, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse By no means a fan of thoughtless "fuck you" comments, but this bolt-from-the-blue action leaves us needing reassurance that the staff concerned
didn't accept jobs at the Foundation for the purpose of perpetrating a hostile takeover.
Without a substantive response from the WMF, they'll be getting no more work out of me: Bhunacat10 (talk), 08:59, 18 June 2019 (UTC) - Endorse – A good way to cool down. — JFG talk 09:23, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - a sensible way forward. GiantSnowman 09:42, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - Not perfect, but good enough. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:28, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Conditional support iff the matter is examined by ArbCom. Otherwise, I agree with those in opposition that this basically ignores the real problems that were apparently raised to lead to this action. My problem with the T&S action was never the ban itself but that established community processes were not followed. If ArbCom can independently and impartially review the case against Fram, I think the WMF should allow it to do so. If that fails, T&S can still step in again. Regards SoWhy 10:33, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - an ArbCom case is probably a good idea but is not a condition on my part (I don't think it's likely that one would not be filed). Encouraging actual communication and actual respect for the people involved on all sides seems like the only way forward. Thank you, Newyorkbrad. --bonadea contributions talk 12:01, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - per WereSpielChequers whose institutional memory will recall at least one instance when the community desysoped a foul-mouthed contractor who all but killed off the efforts to improve NPP and introduce ACTRIAL (plenty of diffs available). That said, let's not lose sight of the fact that this this entire debacle is not so much about Fram or other admins who fell on their swords in support, but more about the sleazy hegemony and exploitation by the WMF of the volunteers who provide their raison d'être, salaries, and junkets. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:42, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse as a start. And presuming that arbcom is privy to the basis of T&S's actions and supports this route. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:20, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse as a good-faith start to re-building the bridges summarily destroyed by WMF in their actions. However, what bothers me the most is that the WMF could take this kind of bizarre unilateral action again, at any point, for any reason. The clear questions over some members of WMF and various COI still exist. But given the utter recalcitrance from WMF to show any kind of openness to actually discussing this (no more boilerplate, perhaps they're not aware of {{DTTR}}), that might be an ask too far. So let's at least undo the damage the WMF have done, and then we can move on, but with a much more cautious eye on WMF, their behaviour and the various inter-relations in an attempt to avoid more such community devastation. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:26, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse, not as a satisfactory solution, but as a start. As for the perceived problem of #2, regarding identifying those allegedly aggrieved editors: we can be pretty certain at this point that there aren't any. We know of exactly one case of somebody who complained to the foundation about harassment (no secrecy, because she said so herself); we know that the foundation took that complaint at face value; we know they were wrong in doing so because in fact there was no harassment. Per Occam's razor, there is no reason whatsoever to assume there are any more genuine complainants, at least none whose complaint would be seriously enough to warrant a demand for privacy, or if there are, their complaints are just as wrong as the first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:12, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse as a way forward from this debacle. Jonathunder (talk) 16:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I am not perfectly happy with item 1, but maybe I missed something in the last few days and the WMF has been in contact with ArbCom to let them handle the ban ("take over" if there really is meat on that unidentified bone), and we have to start somewhere. Thank you NYB. Drmies (talk) 18:03, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - It's a way forward, beyond the "fork off or fuck off" mentality that some other people seem to have.--WaltCip (talk) 18:42, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse - a reasonable suggestion to de-escalate this crisis. GermanJoe (talk) 00:34, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse. Seems a perfectly reasonable compromise. If the WMF had just said "it's a private matter, we can't talk about it" and issued an indefinite ban, then I would assume something Really Bad happened, but since that isn't what WMF did, their explanation has been highly lacking. WMF should admit that it was an overreach and move on. SnowFire (talk) 05:54, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse. It's refreshing to hear such a calm, reasonable, respectful, and compromising proposal. Benjamin (talk) 06:44, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse. Get a fresh "re-start". Kante4 (talk) 08:49, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse – seems like a sensible course of action to me. Graham87 09:04, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse as a possible move forward to a more constructive relationship between the projects and WMF. I've some reservations, though. Firstly, this is not just about Fram, it is about our relationship with WMF in regard to the enforcements of the ToU. Most global WMF bans in regard to cases I was familiar with appeared to be justified. Cases like continued harassment of users outside of our projects, huge zoos of sockpuppets across multiple wikis, upload of very problematic material etc. are indeed best handled by T&S. However, usual on-wiki misbehaviour should be still handled through community processes where those responsible to handle it are elected (admins, checkusers, oversighters, and arbcoms). WMF staff should go forward and communicate their concerns if they see shortcomings in our processes. Such an outside view can be helpful and would allow us to develop our processes into a better direction where needed. Secondly, I've some concerns in regard to Jan Eissfeldt, lead manager of T&S. In 2014, he participated in a wheel war including the application of super-protect at de:wp for which his regular account was desysoped: [30], [31]. At that time he was nearly entirely unable to communicate, this was his only comment where he pointed to a statement by someone else. This pattern of a wheel war just re-appeared now again. Like before, this was not an emergency, this could have been resolved through communication. I've absolutely no trust in anyone who resorts to wheel-warring without even attempting to communicate. --AFBorchert (talk) 09:48, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse Maybe it's not perfect, but it's a reasonable start. One aphorism I used to use when teaching Master's degree students about government policy making was "the best is the enemy of the good". I think that applies here. This is a good start. It may have to be tweaked along the way, there may be stumbling blocks, but it's a hell of a lot better than doing nothing and the best proposal we've got. Doug Weller talk 14:51, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse A fair compromise.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:36, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse per Doug Weller and many others. We can't force WMF to do anything, but should they decide it's a good idea to start mending some fences, we need to offer them some sort of consensus-based way to move forward. There are some issues with this proposal, but if we assume a assume a modicum of good faith on all sides then I can't see why any of them would be insurmountable. GirthSummit (blether) 18:59, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse as a place to start -- but the T&S committee's unilateral action remains unacceptable, & the WMF needs to acknowledge this. AFBrochert raises the important point that Jan Eissenfeldt was involved in 2 Foundation actions that offended the en.wikipedia community; if he was critically involved in these offensive acts then his dismissal from the Foundation should be added to this resolution. We must be able to reasonably trust all of the employees of the Foundation. -- llywrch (talk) 21:54, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Endorse per proposal. Oshawott 12 ==()== Talk to me! 02:52, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Oppose
- This doesn't sound realistic to me. I'm sure that the Trust and Safety team had good reasons for banning Fram, and I have no reason to think a long, angry discussion between editors who don't know the situation constitutes a reason to overturn that ban. I also don't think it's realistic (or desirable) for the WMF to disclose private information that they're not authorized to disclose. The other suggestions seem like good ones. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:13, 17 June 2019 (UTC) To be clear, I do not endorse as I don't see this as a realistic proposal, and I do not support the unauthorized revealing of private information or the reversal of a ban on the basis of objections from people who don't know the reasons for it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Fram’s incivility has been longstanding and has affected multiple people. This summation outlines the problems better than I could here. If the community thinks the existing system should have been allowed to run its course, too late now. Perhaps an alternative would be to allow ArbCom to review evidence “under seal,” at least what they can legally be permitted to access, and then prepare a statement (perhaps with majority and minority opinions) for the community expressing whether they concur with the ban or if they recommend another solution. “Tell Fram to be nicer” is not going to cut it; if it had, he would have toned it down long ago. Montanabw(talk) 21:33, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Montanabw: I took the liberty of fixing an obvious typo in your link. I think it only fair to point out that the summation was authored by an editor who had been caught in a great many copyright violations by Fram over the years. EllenCT (talk) 23:54, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ellen, thanks for the tweak. But FYI I worked with Blofeld on some FAC projects ( such as Frank Sinatra. Blofeld was a solid editor. Like most WP editors, his later work was better than his earlier efforts. Fram, however, became obsessed about edits dating back a decade, mostly close paraphrasing more than straight plagiarism, and it perfectly illustrates Fram’s obsession about people who violate his personal guidelines. Just because he may be technically right doesn’t grant him carte blanche to hound people like he did. Montanabw(talk) 03:53, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Then it should have been handled on-wiki through Arbcom. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:28, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ellen, thanks for the tweak. But FYI I worked with Blofeld on some FAC projects ( such as Frank Sinatra. Blofeld was a solid editor. Like most WP editors, his later work was better than his earlier efforts. Fram, however, became obsessed about edits dating back a decade, mostly close paraphrasing more than straight plagiarism, and it perfectly illustrates Fram’s obsession about people who violate his personal guidelines. Just because he may be technically right doesn’t grant him carte blanche to hound people like he did. Montanabw(talk) 03:53, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Montanabw: I took the liberty of fixing an obvious typo in your link. I think it only fair to point out that the summation was authored by an editor who had been caught in a great many copyright violations by Fram over the years. EllenCT (talk) 23:54, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose "Fram’s incivility has been longstanding and has affected multiple people" - Fram will be nicer is not really cutting it, they also have not agreed to be nicer anyways Govindaharihari (talk) 21:39, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose "quasi-volunteering to improve decorum" is insufficient. Thank you Montanabw. There seems to be mass amnesia where Fram is concerned, as the focus of their attentions were not simply at newbies, as is clearly shown.[32] While clarification is needed on the roles of enforcing civility, the fact of the matter is that behavior is addressed in the Terms of Use and within the purview of the foundation to step in if the community has failed to address repeated problems. One would hope that clearly defined roles and reporting policies will come of this. SusunW (talk) 21:54, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. "Undo everything you've done, abdicate your duty/ability to enforce the Terms of Use, and don't do anything we don't like in the future, despite owning the site." This is not a compromise. It is a takeover. Fork the site if you disagree with the WMF enforcing the Terms of Use. That is your recourse. ~ Rob13Talk 22:10, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- That doesn't really sound like a compromise either.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:15, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: - that is a ridculous all or nothing argument. Firstly, we're not saying revoke the standard areas of WMF ban-control. Secondly, the WMF is free to amend their ToS however they wish, once legal requirements are met. We argue that they have no other ownership than legal - which is not the be all and end all. We have various methods to act against them, and it makes no sense not to at least consider their usage. It's like telling employees at a company who don't like management's actions that their only option is to create a startup. This suggested solution may well be wrong - but it doesn't lead to (all of) your statement's logical conclusions. Nosebagbear (talk) 22:35, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Floquenbeam: The compromise, as I see it, is that you and Bishonen haven't lost your sysop flags, and WJBscribe hasn't lost their bureaucrat flag. And that compromise is quite generous, given your collective actions. ~ Rob13Talk 01:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:39, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think that it misses the real point to say that the community should either: (1) say "please sir, can I have some more?" or (2) go fork ourselves. If there's anything that WMF should care about, it's the crowdsourcing framework of all WMF projects. As such, it's entirely appropriate that the "crowd" should speak out about problems that concern us. And then, WMF can, I suppose, tell us that they have laid down the law, and we should go fork ourselves. And how would that affect WMF's projects? Is it really in their best interests to encourage their most productive contributors to go and form a competing website? (Hint: no.) The fact that WMF has the legal right to assert their rights of ownership does not mean that it is sensible, practical, or ethical for them to do so. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:46, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:39, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: You're suggesting the community is trying to takeover? The community existed before the WMF ever did. There is only one possible direction a takeover could go. Benjamin (talk) 06:48, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- That doesn't really sound like a compromise either.... --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:15, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose these suggestions are attempting to address two separate issues, the general and the specific, as if the resolution to the former was dependent on the other. That's not a tenable negotiating position and we need to consider the problem of the imposition of a parallel unaccountable dispute resolution procedure on enwiki separately from the appropriateness or otherwise of the punishment meted out on Fram. Let me be clear, I've butted heads with Fram probably as many times as anybody in the past, but I still respect and appreciate their work in defending Wikipedia, and acknowledge that they have make efforts to respond to civility criticisms over the last year or so. I'm opposed to seeing punishment imposed by a body that is not accountable to the community in other than the most egregious and exceptional cases, so I won't feel comfortable with any result for Fram that does not involve ArbCom taking over the sanctions, enforcement and appeal in the specific case. Secondly, there exists the general problem of the perception among T&S that enwiki has not dealt adequately with civility and harassment issues because complainants fear the transparency of our systems will further disadvantage them. I believe that the only long-term solution to that must lie in using T&S as an alternative means of raising and investigating those issues in a confidential way, but that the final decision on sanctions, enforcement and appeal should remain with ArbCom, apart from those cases which are genuinely exceptional. If that means we have to make ArbCom proceedings somewhat less transparent to preserve the privacy of complainants in some cases, so be it. I'd find that a far less bitter pill to swallow than the present situation, and I'm damned sure that both Fram and the complainant in this specific case would agree, particularly since T&S have failed abjectly to preserve the complainant's anonymity in this test case. --RexxS (talk) 23:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. I really expected a smarter solution from you than "ask people to be nicer". Gamaliel (talk) 00:01, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Heh. I see you've never met User:Newyorkbrad: this is what he does! And lots of us think it is plenty smart, actually. --GRuban (talk) 16:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose It is obvious Fram disagrees with the warnings he was given, rescinding the ban because the community feels it was communicated poorly is just kicking the can down the road. The underlying problem the WMF has raised with Fram in two warnings has not been addressed, and there's no sign that Fram has taken these on board. MLauba (Talk) 00:21, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm pretty confident the Office Action was done with good cause, and on some sort of 'three strikes' basis after off-wiki warnings. WMF clearly believes this community has failed to get to grips with certain behavioural issues amongst certain long-established editors or admins (that possibly we ourselves wouldn't tolerate coming from new editors?). It seems unreasonable to propose complete termination of the ban for this individual editor, but I could endorse the resolution if the following changes (except #1) applied to everyone in future:
- a c.75% reduction in the duration of the ban as a sensible compromise to immediate reinstatement;
- no disclosure of any other editors' names to anyone, on or off-wiki (victims shouldn't become targets. Limited disclosure to ArbComm a possibility );
- removal of the words "hopefully" and "generally" from our community accepting that T&S Office Actions are taken with good intentions;
- recognition by any banned editor that their 'decorum' must 'improve' (NYB's words), and that further Office Actions may ensue if they don't;
- that T&S inform ArbComm whenever any editor or admin is issued with an off-wiki warning (possibly extending to sanction implementation by ArbComm, not T&S, per RexxS); and
- any admin, desysopped by an Office Action, shall be expected to edit normally for a period equivalent to the length of their ban - up to a max of 6 months - before submitting a new RfA (in order to give the broad community time to decide if it now has confidence in that person being handed back the tools, based upon that editing).
- But I do absolutely endorse the need for a better dialog between WMF's T&S Team, ArbComm and the community (so that we can properly appreciate and act on their intended message, especially if they believe we are 'institutionally failing' in some parts of our editing or admin culture). Nick Moyes (talk) 02:03, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose though I am open to the suggestions for modification by Nick Moyes. I also agree that since this was done in such as way that caused a huge problem for relations between en.Wiki and the T&S team that further communication is necessary to repair the rift. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 02:27, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose dot points 1, 2 & 3. The facts underlying the ban may be confidential, although I wish WMF would explicitly that if true. Moving forward from here should not depend on Fram. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:41, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per BU_Rob13, you wanted compromise, you have a compromise, nobody other than Fram is banned even though they should have as per the original statement of the ban. Sir Joseph (talk) 02:58, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- That makes sense if you operate from the principle that the WMF is the sole authority and that their word is automatically law. But from my vantage point, it is not a compromise for long-term encyclopedia-builders like Bish and Floq to not be banned. It's common sense. Lepricavark (talk) 03:06, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as, quoting Mx. Granger, "I don't see this as a realistic proposal". I am also open to considering some of the elements suggested by NickMoyes. --Rosiestep (talk) 03:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose T&S make a commitment not to release details to the person accused of harassment. You can't then ask then to tell that person who complained, even if couched in the terms of "stay away from...". - Bilby (talk) 03:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Tony (talk) 04:06, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Disappointing proposed resolution. Only the last point is a good idea.--I am One of Many (talk) 04:33, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose expands a dialog is too wooly, an Americanism that just kicks the can down the road. T&S are ungoverned, unaccountable and based on this bizarre case, may well routinely take actions that if assessed in the cold light of day would be found incompetent or perversely unjust. A system with no published procedures, that refuses to answer questions about its procedures or explain basic case evidence that was always public and has no need to be handled like they were the NSA trying to take out terrorists, is wide open for corruption and the deliberate burying of mistakes by banning those that have been treated badly. In comparison, an hour ago I reported a porn revenge Twitter post made by a woman who claimed to be a victim, the process that Twitter follows is open and accountable whilst the cases they remove can remain confidential. Our expectations for T&S should be no less than the incredibly basic and straightforward policies that Twitter follows, just because they are jolly nice people with good intentions who believe they are good at their jobs and protect each other... --Fæ (talk) 08:44, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
case evidence that was always public
Was it? Says who? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:23, 18 June 2019 (UTC)- My point was a general one. The Framban case does have public evidence, lots of it actually, including emails the WMF sent to Fram for which there is no NDA in place nor should there be, and folks are still debating whether the claims about secret evidence are credible or represent any significant evidence for the ban action, considering that our elected and trusted Arbcom members do not know of any. --Fæ (talk) 13:09, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I can't agree with points 1 and 2, which basically gives Fram a slap over the wrist (I'm AGFing here that the T&S team acted on a serious and legitimate concern, as they don't have a history of doing otherwise, and the claims they targeted Fram for being a trouble maker for the WMF lack credibility). Point 3 is also very unsatisfactory: admins are expected to have a high standard of behaviour and encourage constructive discussions - being only a "little bit" better than ranting about ArbCom is not at all the standard admins should set. A better solution would be to refer this matter to ArbCom, which is where it should have gone in the first place. Nick-D (talk) 10:36, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose on two grounds: first, because it's a moot point; T&S has seen what the community has to offer in this regard and has chosen not to blink. Another demand for the same is not going to change things, it'll just draw out the drama. Second, because I'm increasingly uncomfortable with the impassioned defense of an admin who may have crossed a line into harassment. The thing about harassment being that the perpetrator doesn't get to define it. Even if Fram believed sincerely they hadn't crossed a line, they may have. And I find the demands that a volunteer suspension be treated with the same gravity and seriousness as a criminal trial cringe-worthy at best. Perhaps Fram will take the year to reflect on how their actions impacted people and will make a change when they return - that door has certainly been left to them by T&S and it's probably the best course of action at this point. Simonm223 (talk) 12:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per many above, not least Simonm223. Though perhaps after voting to overturn T&S's office action, we could vote for peace in the middle east and a unicorn for everyone? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:23, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per Mx. Granger. However, I wish to extend appreciation and thanks to Newyorkbrad for his measured and reasonable response to the situation, and his efforts to drive us forwards towards a constructive resolution. I can provide moral support, at least. :-) --Deskana (talk) 13:03, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose because this is not about Fram, it's about the relationship between the Foundation and ArbCom, and the Foundation and enwiki. Fram is one of the symptoms, yes, but we need to be looking at the causes and treating those. I don't think if Fram has been so toxic as the Foundation believe and some here on enwiki believe, that letting him back into the community without investigating those allegations is appropriate. My feeling is that as regards the specific case of Fram in this incident, that ArbCom should take over the ban, and hold a case investigating his behaviour. I said that right at the start to Jan. I would prefer that to shrugging the whole thing off as "he's learnt his lesson" because I'm not sure anyone other than those who complained to the Foundation and those within the Foundation who saw the report knows exactly what that lesson is, particularly not Fram himself. How is Fram to know exactly what he should avoid if he's not aware of it? The only aspect of this that I support is dialogue between the Foundation and enwiki/arbcom, but we have already made that clear. I have suggested that the current ArbCom request be made a focus for that discussion, while OR has suggested a RfC. Dialogue cannot happen until a venue is accepted and agreed. That appears to be the stage we're at. My preference is for the ArbCom case to be the venue because the Clerks have both experience and appropriate authority to maintain decorum, ArbCom are involved (and ArbCom is fairly central to this as the current main point of contact between WMF and enwiki, and the community authorised body to deal with situations like this), and private evidence, if appropriate, can be handled by ArbCom. If the consensus is against that as a venue, then let us do a RfC (and please let us not have any other suggestions for a venue, otherwise time and energy will be dissipated while we argue among ourselves over a venue, thus justifying any concerns the Foundation may have that we are not equipped to deal with serious issues). I think this is a nice gesture NYB, and I appreciate it, but I don't think it addresses the real issues. SilkTork (talk) 13:32, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- The issue is, and has always been, about the relationship between Wikipedia editors' elected governing body, the Arbitration Committee, and the Foundation. I'm glad to see some Committee members rising to that occasion. The position the Committee takes as a whole, however, is indeed what's key to safeguard against questionable overlap. To do that, the Committee is going to need to assert itself. El_C 14:44, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. I cannot endorse this degree of extension of good faith to Trust and Safety or the WMF as a whole after these events and their statements. Nor can I agree to muzzling anyone's criticism of Arbcom, or to going against an RfC that explicitly recognized our right to say "fuck" on-wiki. There are governance issues here, but also classism issues and an abundant assumption of bad faith on the part of the WMF and some of its defenders. I cannot endorse anything that endangers individual editors by endorsing their treatment as pawns, or as subjects without rights. ArbCom has been bad enough in this respect, but at least we can seek to remedy wrongs done by ArbCom. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:03, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. Did Fram harass and abuse people? If the T&S thinks so, I trust their judgement. The identities of his victims should be protected, especially considering the utter vitriol that has been on display on this page. AdA&D 18:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Then why didn't they allow Arbcom to arbitrate? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds like a question to ask the WMF...
If I were to guess I'd say it's because ARBCOM's civility standards aren't stringent enough to enforce the Terms of Use.AdA&D 01:28, 19 June 2019 (UTC) - Actually after rereading this statement it seems it was due to privacy and COI concerns. AdA&D 01:34, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sounds like a question to ask the WMF...
- Then why didn't they allow Arbcom to arbitrate? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose The first bullet point itself is ludicrous. There is no real reason why the Office should unban Fram. If Fram were ever to receive the "clean up your act" message, that would have happened years ago. Their statement on Commons, "of course it is rather hard for me to avoid [the involved editors]" doesn't inspire any confidence either. And they still seem to be obsessed about their admin status. SD0001 (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Then why didn't they allow Arbcom to arbitrate? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think it's fairly obvious at this point. They can't even agree right now to create a case based on the banning of Fram and/or the three uses of tools to overturn Office actions. The ban is complicated. Creating a case and reaching out to the WMF for details in private is the base minimum that they could do to form their own conclusion whether the ban was proper or not (even if they can't enforce the unbanning). The three uses of tools to overturn Office actions is all on-wiki behavior and we don't have a case on it. At this point, I wouldn't trust them to sift through Fram's edits to examine his on-wiki behavior. — Moe Epsilon 23:39, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Then why didn't they allow Arbcom to arbitrate? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose This kind of remedy has been floating around Wikipedia's dispute resolution processes since time immemorial, and it's not effective. If this sort of action is what it takes to get the message through, I say do it. Banedon (talk) 02:29, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Also I can imagine the press coverage that could easily happen if Fram is unbanned and the media starts talking to the people he allegedly harassed. Chances are they'll report the allegations, maybe find the diffs (if the victims are willing), and then conclude that on Wikipedia, if the community kicks up enough of a fuss, they can overrule the WMF's actions. Maybe some will like this kind of portrayal, but I find it very unflattering. Banedon (talk) 02:33, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose while I understand Newyorkbrad is trying to do, I am not convinced the proposals will be enough to address whatever concerns there are with Fram's behaviour without knowing more details of that behaviour which I can't and don't know. I am also concerned that for this proposal to work, it may require T&S share info with Fram they feel they cannot disclose. As others have noted, there's nothing nor anything in the proposal stopping Fram disclosing the identity of the person. (See also later.) While Newyorkbrad has acknowledged that what we don't know may mean the proposals don't work, I am concerned from what I've seen that if we come up with a proposal that is not going to work and send it to the WMF and then they reject it because it was never going to work, this will generate way more heat than light and so is not helping anything. Nil Einne (talk) 05:09, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- BTW, an additional problem is that since this is all quasi-voluntary and short on details, it's not clear what happens if everyone agrees to it and then it falls apart. For example, from Fram's reponse they agree to it but have noted they may not notice who's page it is when they edit during routine cleanup. As hopefully most of us know, if this were a formal iban, not noticing is rarely an excuse. When you have an iban you do need to make sure you check stuff before editing. It may impose additional work but that's the nature of the best when the community have decided you need to stay apart. What will happen in this case? And if the identity is secretive, even handling it is fraught. And notably, if a perceived violation of the quasi-voluntary iban results in re-imposition of the WMF site ban, even if the community can't figure out who it is from the timing, if Fram feels they were unfairly treated, there's nothing stopping them revealing the details they know including, as mentioned before, the identity of who the iban was with. And one thing which should have occurred to me with Fram's earlier responses but didn't. For any 2 way iban there are additional complications. Even if the other party involved in the iban wants to respond, there are complications. While the community accepts ibans don't preclude the raising of issues about the iban in appropriate places and within limits; WTF happens if lots of other people are talking about the iban on en.wikipedia, based on details perhaps revealed on other communities or outside the WMF universe, somewhat akin to what has happened in this case with one particular person and their private life? Again if you've been around AN/ANI enough you know the community general rejects anyone with an iban getting too much involved in discussions surrounding the iban relating to the person they were ibanned from. While to some extent this is the case even without an iban, it's much more acute when there is an iban. So assuming there is a 2 way iban, and such details were not mention in the original proposal so I have no idea, the complainant finds themselves in an IMO very bad situation. Nil Einne (talk) 05:43, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as per Montanabw and endorse proposal by Nick Moyes, especially point 6. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:46, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose: (ristrettomente) #1 is unacceptable. WMF has the right to deny service to anyone, just like any website or 24-hour diner. Parenthetically, while sometimes I do agree with some of the reasoning behind Fram's "campaigns," I have never once agreed with their sharp wording in what I've read from them. Let's imagine:
- an alternate universe in which the WMF did not have the right to "DO WHAT THEY WANT" with or without reason concerning access to their site
- Fram was "right" about every case they argued
- Fram was likewise "right" to use extreem language in every case they ever argued.
- In that case... mistakes happen, get over it. Personally, I have done more than twice the amount of time Fram is being asked to serve for nothing more than posting authorship information and asking if "a bit of today politics" had anything to do with Cirt's extensive contributions to "And you are lynching Negroes" (and by implication Fake news & Fake news website). Sometimes, life just isn't fair. ;( ^^ 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 06:19, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose: The new information shown by Carcharoth below, about the concerns WM Belgium has had with T&S, is enough that I'd say that anything short of a full audit of the WMF, and T&S in particular, is going to be insufficient. rdfox 76 (talk) 23:48, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Other
- I removed "a little bit" entailing the "improve his decorum" bit as it means nothing additional compared to an arbitrary improvement. --qedk (t 桜 c) 19:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Change reverted. "A little bit" is material. Fram is not being asked to promise to be a saint, but he would be being asked to be more careful. Jheald (talk) 19:15, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- See WP:TPO, if youd like NYBrad's comment changed you should ask him to change it instead of changing it yourself. nableezy - 19:15, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- If possible, let's focus on the bigger picture here rather than nuances of the wording. Thanks. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:17, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Please don't chastise me about policy, meaningless wording is concerning in a proposal the community has to endorse and I removed it for that sole reason. I personally don't care about being reverted so, meh. --qedk (t 桜 c) 19:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Uncertain I endorse this in spirit, although the specifics make me queasy. The main point I disagree with is saying "I am angry" in a "calm collected manner", can be in many situations, much less effective that showing that you are angry (Whether or not FUCK ARBCOM is the most effective way of showing that, I'll leave up to debate). So I don't think Fram should be required (based on what I know of the publicly available evidence, at least) to self impose an interaction ban / clean up his act, especially if that interaction ban leads to the other editor(s) resuming their poor encyclopedic behaviour or Wikipedia institutions failing to hear that something is unacceptable when it is unacceptable. That said, that doesn't mean I'm not in favour of Fram generally improving their behavior (if indeed poor behaviour has occurred), or that I don't acknowledged that it is unpleasant to be on the ass end of a "FUCK <INSTITUTION>" comment. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:26, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment - it sounds like this plan entails the WMF disclosing to Fram the names of those who reported him. I highly doubt they'll ever do that, unless the reporters themselves agree to it... whatever else may come out of this, the foundation's privacy policy for people who contact them will remain sacrosanct, and I would have thought rightly so. Other than that this may be a reasonable way forward if the WMF and Fram both buy into it, but let's not forget there are other avenues already being explored through Jimbo, DocJames and the board. As for Headbomb's point, I disagree. I've never really got into the discussions over language and tone before, and it offends me not at all, but we should be mindful that Wikipedia has a diverse range of ages, genders, races, creeds and cultures, and if WMF enforce a stricter guideline on the tone we use then I for one won't be complaining. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 19:49, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- It's hard to find fault with the overall thrust of this proposal, but I think a bit of skepticism needs to be added. Yes, it would undoubtedly be helpful if WMF drops the stick over the ban. Yes, it would unquestionably be a good idea for Fram to be more empathetic in his interactions with others. But are we just kicking the can down the road in the event that, a little later, someone secretly contacts T&S asserting that a recent comment by Fram violates his "quasi" commitment? Yes, the community should be cooperative with WMF staff, rather than adversarial. But I actually think the overwhelming majority of us have been willing to do that all along, and no amount of consensus will dissuade those who really want to be adversarial. And the problem arose from T&S not being willing to cooperate with us, not the other way around. Yes, there needs to be dialog between the community and T&S, as well as between ArbCom and T&S. But a lot of that is already being initiated, and the proof will be in the proverbial pudding. WMF does need to communicate with the community about what they intend, but we need to expect that the community response will be complex, and WMF needs to expect that, if they express it as a top-down take-it-or-leave-it kind of thing, it won't work. I'd actually prefer to decide on all of this only after we find out what the outcome of the Board meeting Friday was, and what the upcoming WMF-ArbCom meeting leads to. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- A fair assessment, and if they come out of the board meeting with something that throws more fuel on the fire it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect this option to be taken off the table. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 20:27, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Unrealistic - The WMF has already claimed ownership of bat, ball, and the field - they aren't going to give any of it back. I'm sorry - really I am - but that's just the way it is. — Ched : ? — 22:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
- Moot unless your final bullet point "the Office opens, or reopens, or expands a dialog with the community about what it is trying to accomplish and how to get there" happens first. Like I said in my statement at the pending ArbCom request, it's the Foundation who has the ball in their court to act. You can have "consensus" to do anything here like unblocking Fram's account (even though he still can't edit en.wiki) but it's still the Foundation who gets to decide because they hold the technical access to enforce their decisions at the end of the day. Unless you can actually enforce anything, then this entire discussion is for nothing. If they read this and reach this conclusion themselves and start engaging, then that's the starting point. With as many suggestions that have been thrown about though, it's unlikely this one is going to stand out though anymore than the others. At any rate, the rest of it reads as "everyone gets a slap on the wrist and let's discuss terms of use more", which isn't the problem. Civility is the problem on this website, which is why T&S stepped in. If you don't handle civility on the website, then they will again. — Moe Epsilon 00:12, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't understand why is it important to terminate Fram's ban. It is not the ban per se, it is the lack of explanation. Give a proper explanation. Details need not be given. If the details of the reason are out of scope for ArbCom and the community, then say so, otherwise refer it back to the community (which includes ArbCom). Fram's possible negotiations to end the ban should be completely separate from resolving issues of WMF heavy-handedness and non-transparency. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:47, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- According to Fram, he received a one year ban for saying "fuck Arbcom", and that the Foundation likely employed this draconian move because a grudging complainant against him has connections to the WMF and the Chair herself. This is an oddly specific, extremely outrageous narrative. And, yet, the Foundation will not deny it, nor will they even suggest that there's more to the story. If they will not even try to defend the ban against alleged blatant corruption, then why should we assume that it is legitimate? I would much rather have them simply explain that the ban is for legitimate reasons. But it's highly suspect that they will not do so. It goes beyond simple refusal to explain a ban when the ban is alleged to be unjust. ~Swarm~ {sting} 01:01, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SmokeyJoe: The WMF has already said Fram violated the Terms of Use section that prohibits "harassing and/or abusing others". What more do you want than that, if you're not looking for details? ~ Rob13Talk 01:18, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Hi BU Rob13. You're tempting me to argue the other side to my intended thrust, that the way forward should not require a resolution of the Fram question. I think the resoltuion need only deal with the process of WMF bans, the scope of WMF-only decisions, Community (inc. ArbCom) only decisions, and where there may be overlap. I think User:Newyorkbrad's dot points 4 & 5 should be the focus. But your question is fair:
A. The assertion "violated the ToS" is sufficient justification for the WMF to act. I am asking for an explanation for why, without details, the ban, ongoing, can't be referred to ArbCom or the community generally. I think it would be very reasonable for WMF to declare a ban, and then refer to ArbCom to review or modify. Surely, ArbCom should have the option to extend the 1 year ban? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:35, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @SmokeyJoe: Lengthen? ArbCom can already do that, if they receive reports related to harassment. Otherwise alter/shorten? That would now put the WMF in very sketchy territory. If they have become aware of an editor harassing others on this site, taken action they felt necessary to enforce the Terms of Use, and then allow another body to overturn that action without having the full evidence, I think that may open them up to liability. (It's worth noting that the WMF's existing procedures/policies prevent them from disclosing the reporter even to ArbCom. That confidentiality may have been the only reason a reporter came forward, because Fram's influence - see this entire page - has a chilling effect on those he chooses to harass and abuse.) ~ Rob13Talk 02:01, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- "Confidentially prevents WMF from sharing details with ArbCom", if true, with "violated the ToS", is the minimal sufficient statement I would ask them to give. Have they said that? If they say that, then the Fram ban comes of the table for the purpose of this discussion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:36, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- What kind of liability? Assuming that Fram is truthful that there was no off-wiki harassment, there isn't really anything in his on-wiki activity that would be enough to involve the law. On the other hand, copyvios can get the project in legal trouble; Fram has been doing the dirty work of cleaning it up (it's a fight no one else wants to fight), so preventing a major liability mitigator from doing their work is ironically exposing the project to liability. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- BU Rob13 The ToU clause that you're referring to prohibits
harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism
. According to Fram, the offending comment that triggered his ban was this, which was certainly uncivil, but not "harassment or abuse" as is defined by the ToU clause that is supposedly being enforced. So, yes, additional explanation beyond "see the ToU" is quite obviously needed, as it doesn't even seem applicable. ~Swarm~ {sting} 03:06, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Swarm: I encourage you to read. Fram has posted the email he received, and it contained that diff as an example, with the email explicitly noting that it was part of a repeated pattern continued after the past warning. One example diff - likely the least relevant example diff, even, since the worst diffs likely had to be hidden to protect the reporter - does not mean that's "the offending comment that triggered his ban". You are trying to apply the ToU and determine whether it applies to evidence you have not seen. Do you understand how that is an exercise in futility? ~ Rob13Talk 03:56, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @BU Rob13: Okay. I read it all. It doesn't claim or imply that that clause of the ToU was actually breached. Go back and look, it literally doesn't even imply that Fram was outside the ToU. Actually, no where, from what I see, and no one, has tried to argue that point. The Foundation cited "abusive communications such as X". X is a problem, but it's not a breach of the ToU. There's no mention of anything beyond such "abusive communications". You're just assuming there is. They simply did not cite to Fram or even claim in any of their explanations that he breached the ToU. They cited petty incivility towards Arbcom. So, that gives the impression that Fram was banned for his pattern of petty incivility, rather than breach of the ToU. You trust that that's not true, and that there's a higher level of offense, but it's clear that both Fram's and the community's impression that this is civility policing and nothing more has disrupted the project, demonized the complainant, demonized the Chair, vilified the T&S team, resulted in admins resigning, and harmed community relations. Why, if there was more to the story than "civility policing", has the Foundation simply not said so? All we want is for the Foundation to confirm that Fram actually breached the ToU. I have no personal affinity towards Fram, but this harms my perception of the WMF. Why would they not simply confirm that Fram breached the ToU, unless it would be a lie? Like I said, there's no privacy considerations in simply saying "there was harassment" or "there was stalking". But instead they said "there was abusive communication", which is no different except for the fact that it does not invoke the ToU. That's the only issue here. If there's evidence they can't disclose that's in breach of the ToU, I don't need to see it. I don't need to know about it. I just need to know that it exists. ~Swarm~ {sting} 06:36, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Swarm: Cool, because they already have. The original email to Fram did not cite ToU violations. The WMF basically never cites ToU violations for office actions, because such statements could open them up to defamation lawsuits, theoretically. I know of one that is making its way through federal district court now, and it will probably be dismissed with prejudice because the WMF so clearly did not make any statements of fact that even have the potential to be false.
But the WMF, in their statement to the community on this page, said this particular office action was made pursuant to the "Harassment and/or abusing others" section of the ToU. Their exact wording was thus: "What we can say in this case is that the issues reported to us fell under section 4 of the terms of use, as noted above, specifically under the first provision entitled 'harassing and abusing others.'" This is an extraordinary level of openness, given that it could theoretically get them sued. It is a shame that there are Wikipedians that have just failed to read it, apparently. ~ Rob13Talk 13:01, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, so you believe the WMF without any question, evidence, or explanation. I really don't believe the same thing. You resigned from Arbcom in the face of overwhelming community condemnation. I don't believe you for sympathizing with the WMF in a similar situation. However, I'm just asking for a cursory acknowledgment of my concern, which the WMF refuses to provide. You are unable to provide that beyond blind trust, and while I don't hold your position against you, I don't think it's necessarily the truth. ~Swarm~ {sting} 13:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Especially because the terms are somewhat subjective. Let's take "stalking," for example. At RFA voters routinely go check through a candidates past contributions, sometimes in great detail, to find edits that reveal a mindset not suitable for the tools. Rob himself, at RFA not too long ago, had this to say about candidates with a somewhat low edit count -
Trust me, in the future, I'll go through every single edit and highlight every potentially objectionable one when an editor has less than 4,000 edits.
One could consider that stalking, a violation of ToU Section 4, and worthy of a WMF ban. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:35, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Swarm: "Overwhelming community condemnation"? This is just false, and a personal attack. Nice. I resigned from the Arbitration Committee for a variety of reasons, none of which included pressure from the community. Moreover, you are demonstrating plainly that you fail to assume good faith in anyone on the project, apparently. Again, fork the project if you don't like the fact that the WMF has legal obligations. Or, better yet, approach the Foundation and offer to take on all legal liability that Fram's future actions may bring them in exchange for his unban. If you are so certain that the Foundation is acting with sinister intentions and that Fram has done nothing wrong, that should be no problem, no? ~ Rob13Talk 15:05, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Especially because the terms are somewhat subjective. Let's take "stalking," for example. At RFA voters routinely go check through a candidates past contributions, sometimes in great detail, to find edits that reveal a mindset not suitable for the tools. Rob himself, at RFA not too long ago, had this to say about candidates with a somewhat low edit count -
- @Swarm: Cool, because they already have. The original email to Fram did not cite ToU violations. The WMF basically never cites ToU violations for office actions, because such statements could open them up to defamation lawsuits, theoretically. I know of one that is making its way through federal district court now, and it will probably be dismissed with prejudice because the WMF so clearly did not make any statements of fact that even have the potential to be false.
- Hi BU Rob13. You're tempting me to argue the other side to my intended thrust, that the way forward should not require a resolution of the Fram question. I think the resoltuion need only deal with the process of WMF bans, the scope of WMF-only decisions, Community (inc. ArbCom) only decisions, and where there may be overlap. I think User:Newyorkbrad's dot points 4 & 5 should be the focus. But your question is fair:
- Neutral I don't mind the proposal, but it's not our position to compromise. I hate to say it, but unless all of us stop contributing to the project, we really don't have control over this. SportingFlyer T·C 01:06, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Even if, if we're being honest with ourselves. nableezy - 01:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- "Control" is irrelevant, moral influence is. Gandhi had no control over the British in India, M. L. King had no control over Jim Crow laws in the South or the Federal government, what they both had, and built up more of as time went on, was moral influence. That is our lever, not whether we "own" the website or who can turn it off if they want to. People really don't appear to be understanding this, which is as much a part of the real worl as who possesses the keys to the place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- An issue with this is that you lose moral influence by condoning wrongdoing. Acting as if nothing has happened is a form of condoning. In other words, the guilt of the WMF rests on us all if we know what is going on and yet act as if things are normal. Reflected in the comments above are radically different conceptions of authority. In Hegelian-derived philosophy, authority belongs at the collective-subjective level, as the final judgment of history at the end of time is unavailable. Authority bleeds in at many levels, wherever people act rationally and in good faith. In Kantian thought, authority derives from the chief executive down through subordinates. Both concepts are used today--for example, in science, an authority is someone who is has established themselves as knowledgeable through hard work, study, and a good track record. Their authority is channeled down through to TAs, teachers, journalists to the public. On wikipedia, we call them "reliable sources." On the other hand, appeals to "the community" to enforce something is an example of the collective-subjective form of authority. Appeals towards passive aggression are consistent with Hegelian thought, as in Hegelianism an irrational governance can be legitimately subverted (think Red-Scare style infiltration). In contrast, in Kantian governance the resistance must be allowable in a constitutional sense where opposing parties can act against each other in an orderly fashion (e.g. Kant's "nation of devils" quote), or the resisting parties may be Lesser magistrates (in this case, Floquenbeam and Bishonen are acting as resisting lesser magistrates). Subversion is not allowable because honesty and truth are too valuable and lying is extremely wrong. In contrast, Hegelians tend to be more relativist and see honesty and truth as being at least somewhat compromised in the dialectic process, which will not resolve as long as history endures. One Kantian approach would be to let some of the other higher-ups deal with it, and to not take a position one way or another, or to just leave wikipedia and not think about it to maintain moral purity, maybe to go to a rival wikipedia website instead. Because in Hegelianism, "whatever is, is right," there can be a tremendous need to win, while in Kantianism maintaining your individual moral purity and establishing the truth is more important because what is right is determined through careful ethical analysis.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 03:31, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- "Control" is irrelevant, moral influence is. Gandhi had no control over the British in India, M. L. King had no control over Jim Crow laws in the South or the Federal government, what they both had, and built up more of as time went on, was moral influence. That is our lever, not whether we "own" the website or who can turn it off if they want to. People really don't appear to be understanding this, which is as much a part of the real worl as who possesses the keys to the place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Even if, if we're being honest with ourselves. nableezy - 01:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- In Hegelianism, the broader levels of authority encompass the lower levels. For example, the state is expected to have an antithetical relationship to the authority of the family, and this is expected to be a good thing. Fran's request that the ArbCom "Just crawl into a corner and shut up until the community asks you to do something within your remit, but don't try to rule enwiki as if you have the right and the competence to do so." does not reflect this understanding with reflect to the ArbCom. ArbCom, due to both the democratic character of its selection and the rationality of its actions, could be considered a broader level of synthesis than the ordinary English Wikipedia community. Fran rejects this completely on the basis of past experience with ArbCom. This form of argument is an Existentialist critique of Hegelianism. His appeal to an impartial jury is compatible with both Existentialist and Kantian forms of authority, but should ArbCom grant it, they are admitting that they are not the broadest and most supreme level of collective-subjective authority.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 04:12, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- It isnt about owning the website that makes whether or not we all stop editing irrelevant. Its the tiny proportion to the wider community that is present here. Yeah, a lot of us are active in the WP namespace and a ton of the admins here do a huge amount of work in the day to day functioning of this website, and yes there are a number of content creators here that have helped make this place something that the WMF can say hey give us millions of dollars to keep running. But as of this writing there have been 365 editors to this page. I posit that if every single one of these people, and every single person who has edited the AC case request page, including the arbitrators, suddenly stopped editing Wikipedia tomorrow the effect would be negligible, at least as far as WMF is concerned. There will be articles that get either vandalized, or skewed to a POV, BLP violations will be undealt with. But for the most part Wikipedia will continue on. Im not trying to be Debbie Downer, just a realist on the limits of my own power here. nableezy - 05:01, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- In politics, decisions are strongly influenced by a numbers game: in ethics, calculations of numbers are ignored. General human behavior tends to think and act politically, 'can I get away with this,'; 'they are wrong, but if I protest, and no one else does, I'll cop it too.' etc. Ethics, as opposed to morality and politics, is not 'realist' - proceeding only after carefully assaying whether one has sufficient support or not. The crux was illustrated by Antigones' clash with Creon,-her stance is echoed in Luther's Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders,- a tragedy given a famous reading by Hegel. I remember taking a train in the city, sitting down to read in anticipation of an hour-long trip, noting with a smile a young couple of kids smooching opposite, and burying myself in my book. Three stops down, the train pulled up at a station opposite a football ground - and the compartment was filled with drunken fans disappointed in their side losing that day. One of the group of 6, full as a bull's bum from an afternoon of beers but built like a brick shithouse, eyed enviously the boy smooching with his girlfriend, and without much ado, went over, grabbed him in a headlock and began punching him in the head. The girl screamed, the kid wept - and I, opposite, made the natural rapid calculation. If I intervene, there are five of his mates who will join and and beat the shit out of me. But one had no option - you can't watch passively as someone is mercilessly beaten or ill-treated. With a sickening feeling in the pit of my stomach, I reached out and caught his wrist as it drew back to land another punch. I won't recount the following 25 minutes,-a stand-off with me holding my grip while palavering to stop the other five from doing anything other than menacing me, but no other person of the 20 or so male adults in the carriage looked up from their newspapers. It's not that folks are generally unethical - it's that before acting according to their inner lights, they tend instinctively from a self-survival biological reflex to calculate their own interests. The banning of Fram in obscure circumstances created, for some, an ethical dilemma, and Floqueanbeam, Bishonen and WJBScribe essentially said that the high risk of silent complicity in the exercise of blind power gave them little option but to do what they did, challenge the higher body by overruling it. I expect that the assertion of secretive powers will automatically translate into a very small minority being compelled in conscience to desist from donating (I'm not a tenant on this property) their labour to a charitable institution. I know that a bureaucracy doesn't worry about marginal attrition, a number of analyses like your's will tell them it will have a negligible impact. That others see no problem, and just move on with their hobby is the normal reaction one would expect. And all this crisis of conscience because? because somewhere across the world a small board is obsessed by legislating to objectify what is a cultural variable, good manners, and enforce an Americanocentric code globally regardless of what communities elsewhere may, if they ever do, think. It is unlikely to step back because there is a question of face that, as usual, rules out creative conflict resolution. Nishidani (talk) 09:10, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- What's not clear from above is what happens to Fram's status as an editor, and as an admin? I was recently reminded of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1001#Block of Martinevans123 and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive991#Personal attacks, a block and an unblock: review requested where Fram was strongly criticised (if not actually admonished as such) for controversially blocking two longstanding editors. Combined with "fuck the Arbcom", incivil edit summaries and picking a fight with BU Rob13, and that many people have criticised the WMF getting involved and overriding the community / Arbcom with no possible appeal, rather than Fram's actual conduct, I would like to see a guarantee of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram before I can support this. It would allow everyone to have their say and if the consensus is that Fram hasn't done anything terrible enough to take any long term action, then at least everyone will have had their say. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:58, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Assuming Fram gets unbanned there seem to be three options: 1) he gets the sysop bit back automatically 2) we have an RfA to decide, or 3) ArbCom case decides. I don't see much wrong with any of these options, a nice change from the lose-lose scenarios surrounding pretty much everything else in this drama. Reyk YO! 11:19, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Over the particular discussion about Security-Circular, nearly everyone was at their non optimal behaviours. And, tone-deafness from a few arbs compounded it. Given that Fram's conduct definitely improved throughout the year, it's unfortunate that he be put to an ArbCom case because of this mess. Obviously, anybody might propose a case but I will urge for a decline. ∯WBGconverse 11:26, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I disagree with 3/5's of the proposal - however since the oppose section above appears to be made of people who are opposing any resolution because they have issues with Fram I am sticking my response here instead.
- Point 1 - should be a demand regardless. The WMF should not be banning people from the ENWP community unless there is an actual safety issue or child protection issue. That is it.
- Point 2 - this sets a dangerous precedent in that it both encourages and enables problem editors (who are pulled up on their actions) to go running to the WMF. It rewards them for not following dispute resolution and chills future discussion - what admin or editor is going to risk dealing with them if it risks being muzzled. "Without admitting any wrong-doing" - quasi legalistic reference to WoP - which while in a technical legal sense is no admission of liability, it is *always* taken as such by everyone - "I'm not admitting anything but im doing what you say anyway" just instantly means everyone goes "Oh hes totally guilty". If there is an editor that Fram needs to be interaction banned with, then Frams interactions in relation to that editor need to be scrutinised by either the community or arbcom. The stealth interaction ban-but-not-ban by the WMF in communication with Fram is one of the more disturbing things to come to light as a result of this. Its saying the WMF is ready to prevent scrutiny of editors on the encyclopedia - directly interfering with editorial control.
- Point 3 - Completely pointless and appears to just be a sop to the 'Fram is awful' crowd with past axes to grind. Fram's editing record is already out there. Take a look at the last's years interactions with other editors and compare it to say the previous 2 or 3. Its effectively holding Fram to an unrealistic and intangible standard given he has already improved beyond which many respected editors already operate.
- Point 4 - Evidence not provided that T&S are there with good intentions. While I agree that its unlikely any of them joined the WMF specifically to take over ENWP - that doesnt mean they wont take the chance to do so given the opportunity. And given who they are is public knowledge, so is their history. Jan certainly has zero credibility after the superprotect fiasco, and the place-that-shall-not-be-named has links about other members of the staff involved in this situation that are extremely problematic for what are supposed to be employees engaged in ensuring the safety of wikipedians. Their actions so far lead me to conclude that they are there to protect wikipedians they approve of.
- Point 5 - About the only point I agree with in its entirety. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:42, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Unclear difference between what this says and what people have been proposing/demanding throughout this page. First of all, the last bulletpoint should happen regardless. But as for the rest, it's perhaps more diplomatically worded to allow a little bit of face-saving with ~"everyone admit they can do a little better" but still boils down to T&S backing down and Fram making non-binding assurances that he'll take [the mostly unspecified] criticism on board. If everything else wasn't persuasive, I don't see why one more !vote would be.
Advice for T&S: There are a lot of users that WMF will never convince -- people who has a strong distrust for the WMF in general, people who don't think the WMF should ever supersede community process, people who don't think there's any reason to ever keep things private, people who worry about themselves if WMF is starting to issue blocks for long-term behavioral problems, etc. But there are also a lot of people you can convince: people who do think that there is a role to play for T&S to address intractable long-term behavioral problems that the community has failed to address -- people who support the concept, but who are confused or bothered or concerned about what has happened in this particular case. "Severe enough to keep everything a secret and take office action without involving the community" is difficult to reconcile with "you can still use all the other projects and you can come back to this one after a year." If this were a global ban I dare say it would be less controversial in that way (which is not to say uncontroversial, obviously). The other problem is that diffs were provided, but only a handful, and they came from Fram, not from T&S. Those diffs shaped the narrative, and makes the conversation about whether those diffs merited action. That's not a good place to be.
The approach I think would be most effective -- which would've been best at the outset of this case -- is premised on the idea that this isn't actually just about the LH diffs and the diff directed at arbcom that Fram supplied (that those were tipping points but it was more about a longer-term pattern). Assuming that's the case, and that T&S was stepping in to address something which, in their judgment, was severe enough and which the community failed to address, then they should release a big data dump showing (a) a long-term pattern of behavior and (b) community efforts failing to address it sufficiently. I suspect you already have that data. Releasing it would at least would shift the discussion of evidence from what Fram provided to a bigger picture that's harder to point to and say "that's it?" By casting a wide net as such, it's possible you'd actually be better protecting complainants than by forcing speculation through Fram's diffs. It would take time to compile, but I suspect you're already spending quite a lot of time on this.
The other way forward, which isn't very likely but about the only compromise I can see being at all possible, is through a hand-off to ArbCom with conditions, including the understanding that some of the material will still be private and the understanding that it's about a long-term pattern (it's not atypical to see older diffs dismissed or limited consideration to particular types of behavior). ArbCom cases are reasonably well equipped to handle lots of diffs and lots of evidence, on-wiki and off. This has been articulated better by others already, of course. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:34, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- This whole story has nothing to do with Fram. (a)A principle is at stake, (b) massive open discussion by one affected party has been met with oracular comuniqués by the other.(c) in conflict theory this disparity is something everyone here and at the WMF office would deplore were the face-off with this communicative dissonance to occur with a real state. The outcome is usually brinksmanship to see who is bluffing. We huff here, and have no means to bluff. I'm sure that was not the WMF's intention, but their failure to perceive the obvious implications of their communication 'strategy' is deeply disturbing.
- Emotionally, I would endorse. But I see strong sense also in SilkTork's oppose, but disagree strongly with most other comments and editors in that section. Only in death does duty end has summed up concisely what I also think are the basic reservations about an otherwise sensible attempt at compromise. I have no problem with leadership, but in critical times, leaders who have made a mark do so for the fact that, if they err, they made a difficult gesture, symbolic or otherwise, of stepping back. They drop the issue of face-saving. Do that, and you will find people far more accommodating than otherwise seems the case.Nishidani (talk) 17:00, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I appreciate the thought that went into this proposal, but it goes a touch too far for me. Obviously, a large number of people here believe Fram to be completely innocent, but the fact is that the community does not have the ability to make that judgement, and given the presence of private information, is never going to have that ability. I don't see a way out of this that does not involve a community-appointed body (ideally, ARBCOM; but it could be someone else) investigating the situation in full, including the private evidence, and determining whether the ban is necessary. Also, Fram should be unbanned while such a determination is made. Obviously, the nature of the complaint process means that the identity of the complainant cannot be revealed to Fram; but anything claiming that it cannot be revealed to ARBCOM is legalistic nonsense. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:44, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Discussion
The problem with this resolution (as several people have pointed out) is that - irrespective of whether it is endorsed or not - it cannot be accepted in full by T&S. They make a very clear statement that when you report harassment to them "[y]our contact to Trust and Safety is kept confidential, so no details about your experience will be shared publicly or with the person you are reporting".[33] They cannot change this after the fact, as they can't promise to maintain confidentially in an existing case and then change their mind to pass their names to the person accused of harassing them just because a few dozen people on Wikipedia tell them to. Whoever raised concerns with T&S has every right to expect T&S to maintain their promise of condifentially, and therefore cannot both unblock Fram and then tell Fram who complained in order to ask Fram to stay away. In the end, it doesn't matter whether we oppose or endorse this, as it is doomed to failure. Therefore, how would it look if it was rewitten in a way that could be accepted by T&S if it was endorsed? - Bilby (talk) 06:48, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I note that neither Fram or Laura Hale have edited (EN) WP for ten and eight days respectively. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 07:01, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Lugnuts, Fram is communicating from Commons. Not sure about how he can edit en.wiki, given that T&S have threatened to impose a global-ban, shall he ever try that. ∯WBGconverse 07:11, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well, Fram is currently banned and probably couldn't edit even his own talk page. Reyk YO! 07:12, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- He can certainly edit over en-wiki; unblocked, he is. ∯WBGconverse 07:20, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- The Foundation blocked him with Talk revoked, so presumably the ban extends to his talk page. See Wikipedia:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram/Statement from Jan Eissfeldt, Lead Manager of Trust & Safety -- If he edits enwiki, he will be globally blocked and globally locked. ~Swarm~ {sting} 07:28, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks both. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 07:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- He can certainly edit over en-wiki; unblocked, he is. ∯WBGconverse 07:20, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't believe Laura Hale has had anything directly to do with this and the vitriol directed at her is quite unpleasant. If a bunch of people shouted at you, "your work sucks, don't let the door hit you on the way out", would you ever want to contribute again? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:04, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Agree on the first aspect. But, to be mild, d/dt(Laura's learning curve) was too negligible. Mis-use of sources, incoherent paragraphs, weird synthesis, writing unsourced stuff ..... And I went through only a few of his crrations. Sometimes, we need to realise that Everyone can Edit ought not be taken in a very-literal sense. ∯WBGconverse 11:21, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Winged Blades of Godric, The way I would put it is that "everyone can edit" doesn't necessarily mean that "Everyone should edit"S Philbrick(Talk) 15:23, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- "I don't believe Laura Hale has had anything directly to do with this" and pigs might fly. Given the only evidence given to Fram so far by the T&S team points to his interactions with her previously as a causitive factor for the ban. We all know the reason why T&S have no wish for Arbcom to get involved, it is because arbcom (despite its many flaws) will take a look at all editors in a dispute/complaint and judge actions by their context. And that basic principle of fairness is directly at odds to T&S and certain editors ideological totalitarian approach to dealing with those not of the body. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:16, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I mean that I don't believe Laura Hale has directly complained to T&S about Fram, or at least not recently enough in the last 18 months which is the timeframe that seems to be under discussion. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Given their history I just dont agree with you on that one. T&S however wont reveal that information so its a pointless dispute. What is relevant is that editors above are trying to claim that this is a result of long terms actions on the part of Fram. And arguing on the one hand that its a result of long term interaction issues onwiki while trying to exclude editors involved in that time period, despite that they are the cause of one of the few direct interactions between Fram and the T&S team, is being deliberately deceptive. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:00, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm almost certain I know who triggered the recent T&S involvement (95%+ if I was a betting man), and if I'm correct, it's not Laura. I won't share how I was able to put the puzzle together because I could well be wrong, and if I'm right, well, I'm not going to reveal their identity either for more or less the same reasons T&S won't. I'll say that the complainer wasn't necessarily wrong to contact T&S if they are who I think they are, and T&S certainly made the right call in withholding who made the complaint. I'm still really not sure T&S had the moral authority to make that call over the community, and I'm still not sure it doesn't involve putting feeling harassed over being harassed. But if the complainer was who I think they are, it at least makes me believe that T&S acted in good faith. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:47, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- So it's a riddle, wrapped in an enigma, wrapped in a vest. El_C 17:54, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I wouldn't expect T&S to expose their identities regardless of who filed the complaint, and, speaking as someone who has pushed the Laura theory, you're right about not revealing your sources or who the putative suspect is. But you being able to do so is still an indictment of T&S here because all they have done here is ban a user in (presumably) good standing with little warning, no explanation of anything, and limited to one wiki for a year. If a T&S member (using the WMFOffice account) had done the outrageous and unthinkable step of explaining just why Fram was banned at the time of the block and the unusual limits on the block we wouldn't be speculating as much as to whose cereal Fram pissed in. Their secrecy in this case resulted in a Streisand effect which has the potential to (if it hasn't already here or on off-wiki fora) out the complainant. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 09:23, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm almost certain I know who triggered the recent T&S involvement (95%+ if I was a betting man), and if I'm correct, it's not Laura. I won't share how I was able to put the puzzle together because I could well be wrong, and if I'm right, well, I'm not going to reveal their identity either for more or less the same reasons T&S won't. I'll say that the complainer wasn't necessarily wrong to contact T&S if they are who I think they are, and T&S certainly made the right call in withholding who made the complaint. I'm still really not sure T&S had the moral authority to make that call over the community, and I'm still not sure it doesn't involve putting feeling harassed over being harassed. But if the complainer was who I think they are, it at least makes me believe that T&S acted in good faith. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:47, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Given their history I just dont agree with you on that one. T&S however wont reveal that information so its a pointless dispute. What is relevant is that editors above are trying to claim that this is a result of long terms actions on the part of Fram. And arguing on the one hand that its a result of long term interaction issues onwiki while trying to exclude editors involved in that time period, despite that they are the cause of one of the few direct interactions between Fram and the T&S team, is being deliberately deceptive. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:00, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I mean that I don't believe Laura Hale has directly complained to T&S about Fram, or at least not recently enough in the last 18 months which is the timeframe that seems to be under discussion. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Agree on the first aspect. But, to be mild, d/dt(Laura's learning curve) was too negligible. Mis-use of sources, incoherent paragraphs, weird synthesis, writing unsourced stuff ..... And I went through only a few of his crrations. Sometimes, we need to realise that Everyone can Edit ought not be taken in a very-literal sense. ∯WBGconverse 11:21, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Ritchie333: the vitriol directed at Laura is not only "quite unpleasant", it is also exactly the sort of thing WMF are talking about when they made their decision to repatriate some powers to block users for abuse. There should be action taken against people who have hounded her during this saga, based on unproven allegations that she was involved in the banning of Fram, because by no stretch of the imagination is it acceptable. You and I, and the majority of Wikipedians don't act this way, and it's expressly against policy, so why should we tolerate those who do? — Amakuru (talk) 11:20, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Are people going to her talk page or emailing her to harass her, or abusing her because of this as she edits? That would be wrong.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:09, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Wehwalt: I don't know exactly where it's been, to be honest. I gather that there has been a huge amount of negative coverage and digging into her personal life off-Wiki somewhere, probably some of it by people who also edit here, some of which has spilled into accusations and undue pressure on-Wiki. I don't have the time to keep up with all that drama though. BU Rob13 knows more of the details, I believe. Apologies for being vague, but I'm not accusing any specific individuals it's just based on what I've heard. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 20:39, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Are people going to her talk page or emailing her to harass her, or abusing her because of this as she edits? That would be wrong.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:09, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't believe Laura Hale has had anything directly to do with this and the vitriol directed at her is quite unpleasant. If a bunch of people shouted at you, "your work sucks, don't let the door hit you on the way out", would you ever want to contribute again? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:04, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Response from Fram to Newyorkbrad
Hi Newyorkbrad, thank you for this. I agree with your first point (though some clarification about my admin status should be included as well probably). For the second point, I understand that the WMF is not willing to tell me who are the editors involved, but then of course it is rather hard for me to avoid them as well. For the one editor already mentioned here: I already tend to avoid their articles and will let others deal with them. I can't guarantee that I won't edit their articles in routine cleanup runs (e.g. when I am adding short descriptions to categories of articles, I don't first check who created each article).
Your third point, the decorum; as some editors already indicated, I already did this in general the past year, but I'll strive to improve even further.
I had already indicated some possible methods to resolve this higher on this page, this is one fine by me as well. Fram (talk) 09:02, 18 June 2019 (UTC) Copied from Commons Tazerdadog (talk) 12:07, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Is there any reason the WMF or Arbcom can't ask the complainant(s) whether they object to a confidential disclosure of their identities to Fram in order to effect an interaction ban? EllenCT (talk) 03:15, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- This would be self-defeating - Not only would this expose them to Fram, but Fram isn't gagged (per T&S' own actions) so this would end up blowing up in their faces. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 05:17, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I asked about this, and Fram agreed to keep the names of such subjects of an interaction ban confidential and take additional steps to avoid them which would not ordinarily be part of Fram's new page patrolling, if the WMF were to accept this compromise. EllenCT (talk) 21:22, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- It would still require the WMF to disclose those names to Fram, which they explicitly state they will not do, and doing so - after informing those who complained that they won't - would be highly unethical. And to ask those who believe that they've been harassed by Fram to trust that Fram would never reveal who that are seems foolish. - Bilby (talk) 21:25, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Nobody seems to have suggested that Fram has ever betrayed anyone's trust, so perhaps the Foundation would be willing to ask them if they would consent to letting Fram know who they are to effect an interaction ban. Frankly though, this is silly. Fram's original compromise proposal for an independent binding evidence review is less lenient, so the Foundation should go with that. EllenCT (talk) 05:27, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- It would still require the WMF to disclose those names to Fram, which they explicitly state they will not do, and doing so - after informing those who complained that they won't - would be highly unethical. And to ask those who believe that they've been harassed by Fram to trust that Fram would never reveal who that are seems foolish. - Bilby (talk) 21:25, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I asked about this, and Fram agreed to keep the names of such subjects of an interaction ban confidential and take additional steps to avoid them which would not ordinarily be part of Fram's new page patrolling, if the WMF were to accept this compromise. EllenCT (talk) 21:22, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- This would be self-defeating - Not only would this expose them to Fram, but Fram isn't gagged (per T&S' own actions) so this would end up blowing up in their faces. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 05:17, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Dispute resolution
I claim to have real-world dispute resolution experience. Both naughty aggrieved kids, and disgruntled old employees. My take on Wikipedia dispute resolution is that it is a bunch of amateurs doing it poorly. Non-criminal disputes are not resolved in public, but in a private room. Resolution begins with a gentle facilitator who happens to have a big stick in their back pocket for their discretionary use at the end of the day. The facilitator may have an assistant aka junior trainee facilitator or mentor facilitator. There are the two conflicting parties, each may have 1-2 support persons. The facilitator speaks to each of the parties, separately, before the group conference (i.e 3-8 people). There may be a small number of cycles, but timely resolution is a requirement. Outcomes include a resolution, or at least one binding agreement with the facilitator.
In this case, while I don't know Fram or any of the facts, I suspect that a suitable outcome is a binding agreement between Fram and the Facilitator along the lines of strict adherence to a code of conduct. A future violation should be readily decided, objectively, by a Facilitator. Real world possible extreme outcomes include a facilitator recommending to management the dismissal of the employee, or referral of the matter to police.
Real world dispute resolution often sees an imposed outcome where the naughty party then proceeds to escalate the dispute with the facilitator. This is a good outcome for the victim party, they are released from the dispute. It is OK for the facilitator if the facilitator abided by their own code of conduct and holds the firm support of their organisation. The usual outcome is some form of resolution, a soft agreement on working together better, or working apart, and a soft agreement that everything said in the room is not for repeating in public. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:46, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- What do you do when a kid who can't toss the newspapers on the right lawns says she's being harassed because a kid with a paper route who's good at it complains about her when she keeps screwing up? EllenCT (talk) 02:55, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- 1. Listen.
- 2. Separate the pertinent facts from the irrelevant facts from the substantiated and mere opinion. "can't toss the newspapers on the right lawns" is likely both untrue and irrelevant. What are the facts of the alleged harassment? Was there harassment? Is there perceived harassment.
- 3. Talk to the other kid. Listen.
- 4. Depends on the story. At best, the first kid needs support, and the second skilled paper kid is unskilled at supporting the first kid's upskilling. At worst, the second kid is cleverly sabotaging and undermining the first, and the situation needs management. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:06, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- What if the kid who isn't delivering the papers is also friends with the editor of the paper, and "asks a favour"? Andy Dingley (talk) 10:53, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- With that sort of thing you'll find the advantage of the facilitator having private separate meetings with the parties. They are liable to slander. They may invoke powerful other people. Do you think the editor of the paper enjoys having his bully nephew invoke their relationship in his troublemaking? Do you think the editor of the paper might make a more useful contribution if (i) he is brought into the dispute unprepared and publicly in front of his office, or (ii) he is brought into the dispute, privately, and only after the facilitator has helped the bully kid with expressing their position, and the kid affirms that he wants to involve the editor. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:51, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- What if the kid who isn't delivering the papers is also friends with the editor of the paper, and "asks a favour"? Andy Dingley (talk) 10:53, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Joe about how it works in the real world, although I'd phrase "amateurs doing it poorly" as "untrained volunteers doing the best they can". And that's the first of several key differences between Wikipedia and the real world. In the real world, facilitators, mediators, arbitrators, etc., are trained professionals, not anonymous internet users. They are usually unknown to the parties except in their role as facilitator or whatever. Rarely are they the parties' co-workers, and that means they're totally uninvolved, won't be accused of favoring one side or another, and the parties don't see them again after they're done. The parties usually pay money for their services, and the risk of failing to come to an agreement (or failing to abide by a binding decision) is that they will have to pay more money (e.g., to lawyers), so they have motivation to cooperate and find a workable resolution they can live with. Not so here, where it's free to disagree. Also, the "shuttle diplomacy" you describe (private meetings with each side, in addition to "public" group meetings) is very effective and used in all sorts of real world venues, but I think it would have community pushback here due to the unique culture of transparency. (See, for example, this page and its archives.) – Levivich 03:07, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Facilitators are not necessarily trained. Employee disputes do usually involve co-workers. Social services dispute resolution (or "counselling") involves people tied together by life circumstances. I think many of the Wikipedia disputes that are ill-suited for current Wikipedia resolution methods are very similar to the set of problems involving kids with socialization difficulties through to disgruntled older employees.
- My experience does not involve dispute resolution payments to anyone. It's either social services, with underpaid or volunteer staff, or organisation staff whose primary role is not dispute resolution, and they don't really want to do it, but they have to. I have seen and followed some fee-receiving. They may work for legal disputes where parties already are or have lawyers, but not for social difficulties among volunteers, children, or simple workers.
- Face-to-face closed-door meeting is very important in the real world dispute resolution I know. It is hard to think of how it could be replicated in an online setting. One of the features of an initial meeting of a facilitator with an party (whether aggrieved or accused) is that the party may some some seriously disturbing, biased, inaccurate and defaming things. These discussions occur privately and un-minuted for good reason. The challenge of the facilitator is to help the party better articulate the issue from their perspective. Turn "he hates me and harasses me all the time" into "when he calls me from across the floor it makes me feel embarrassed in front of my colleagues". Communication by body language, eye contact, patient listening while a party works through their feelings, these things will be difficult to do without. One possibility I have thought of is similar to the concept of Wikipedia:Writing for the opponent. If a complaint or a testimony is given to the facilitator or to the other party, it may work to have the receiver re-write the testimony in their own words, for confirmation that the testimony has been heard and understood. I worry that this may be overly formal, tedious, and tending to generate unwanted written records.
- Resolving interpersonal subjective social frictions, incivility, harassment is not something that I think ArbCom can ever be good at. It requires that facilitator to be patient, kind, and to have that big stick in their back pocket. The big stick would be the WMF Terms of Service. The facilitator need not have final authority, but they must have the backing of someone with final authority. I think WMF has to take ownership of submissions of complaints of incivility and harassment. I think a Code of Conduct is essential for a workable civility or harassment dispute resolution process. Transparency of process is important, even if details are kept private.
- Respect for natural justice is essential. I'm afraid, regrettably, that an anonymous complaint cannot be acted upon. Doing so turns the facilitator into an apparent bully, and the perpetrator into the victim. At best, a facilitator or moderator can investigate and call out the accused for their publicly known actions, invite the perpetrator to engage the facilitator directly with their unacceptable behavior, then proceed from there. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:28, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Anonymous complaints can most certainly be acted upon. That's what investigations are for. If you receive an anonymous complaint saying "User is making death threats", without anything to back it up you dismiss that, sure. But if you receive an anonymous complain with "User is making death threats" accompanied by 25 diffs of death threats, failing to "act on it" because you don't know the identity of who complained about death threats is nonsensical. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:53, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Can be, but not without your investigation. You are going off my page here. A counselor, or dispute resolution facilitator, or grievance officer, does not "investigate" so much as listens to what the parties think their problems are. Its less about facts than perceptions. And if there is a credible death threat, then suddenly this is a criminal dispute out-of-scope for private dispute resolution. However, many kids, and family members, make death threats. Is it credible? You have to decide which way to go, attempt a resolution, or refer to police. In the workplace, a death threat is deadly serious. 25 diffs of death threats on a public website should call for a bad on the person, and referral to police if the person can be identified. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:59, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- In some cases, obviously, yes. This highlights the utility of restructuring our user reporting architecture. Instead of the current AN/I, there should be a noticeboard similar to AIV for obvious and immediately actionable conduct problems. Everything else should go through a more structured process, ideally with some of the features SmokeyJoe has mentioned. The system we have now just leads to people slinging as much mud as possible, inevitably getting pretty dirty in the process. Not only is it dysfunctional, it reflects poorly on the project. —Rutebega (talk) 18:06, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Anonymous complaints can most certainly be acted upon. That's what investigations are for. If you receive an anonymous complaint saying "User is making death threats", without anything to back it up you dismiss that, sure. But if you receive an anonymous complain with "User is making death threats" accompanied by 25 diffs of death threats, failing to "act on it" because you don't know the identity of who complained about death threats is nonsensical. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:53, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for this, SmokeyJoe! I was thinking along similar lines - we are not actually great at resolving disputes on-wiki. Mediation and de-escalation don't often happen, in part because they are actually very difficult to do and we don't train anyone to do them. Victim support doesn't really happen at all. The only element we have is a disciplinary panel (Arbcom). Worth looking at the (volunteer) dispute resolution roles of the UK Liberal Democrats ... The Land (talk) 19:05, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is pretty good with Content disputes. Every page has a talk page. WP:3O. WP:RFC. WP:AfD & WP:DRV. It is not good at trouble between volunteers. WP:ANI does a fair job in many cases, flair-ups between individuals, for example. I had a good look at the Wikipedia:Mediation Committee and formed most of these views. It did its mediation in full view, and hard evidence was recorded on the wiki from the very start. That is not how to manage trouble between volunteers. The Mediation Committee also didn't have the big stick in their back pocket. Victim support doesn't happen in full view with all correspondence recorded, in full view. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Previous objections to this behavior from the WMF
In 2018, the WMF unilaterally removed the "selfunblock" ability from administrators, with minimal behind-the-scenes discussion, and no community consultation. At the time, there was a contentious discussion going on as to whether the community wanted to remove this ability, which went completely ignored by the WMF staff. I objected to the move for practical reasons, but regardless of the merits of the decision that was made, I noted my ideological objections, which are more relevant than ever before, and I think adequately summarize the problem we have right now:
"... the point of contention about WMF staff showing a complete disregard for the community is a bigger issue. Completely unacceptable in any business situation, additionally insulting coming from an NPO towards its own volunteers, and even more so in the context of the precedent that Jimbo set to purportedly let the community govern. If you're going to take a decision out of the community's hands while they're actively discussing something, at least have the decency to be accountable for that ... you're still suggesting that you don't even see what the big deal is here. There's a contentious community discussion going on, you guys make a judgment call on your end to handle it unilaterally, and to you, that's the long and short of it. To us, okay, you've unilaterally overridden a community consensus-building process, something we hold sacred, something that no member of the community, regardless of standing, would ever be able to do, and you don't even have the decency to explain to us what you're doing and why, not even to give us the slightest indication that you're listening to the community's concerns, or even that you take the concept of a community-based project seriously, at all. The fact that you find this backlash 'strange' suggests that you don't understand the high level of importance that longstanding precedent, and transparency, and communication, and accountability have here, and it's all just happily arbitrary on your end, that's concerning, because it reveals a large disconnect between the culture at WMF and the culture within the community itself. I don't think the WMF has disdain for the community, but those are the optics you project in situations like this."
—Swarm, 27 November 2018 — ~Swarm~ {sting} 09:20, 18 June 2019 (UTC)- I do not think it is fair to connect two unrelated incidents to make a case — the WMF devs working on Wikimedia-Site-requests are not related at all to the Trust & Safety team. There was an emergency situation and the devs took the correct reactive measure. There's no more to it. I do not have comments on your ideological rebuttal to the WMF but the removal of self-unblock right was necessary and warranted. --qedk (t 桜 c) 11:30, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @QEDK: although I agree that these two parts of WMF are not related, I also have the same type of comments on yet another part of WMF. I have now for 10 years been 'fighting' to get an extension overhauled (one that regularly results in questions from the community), and have in the last 2 years written a suggestion in the yearly meta community wishlist. In this last year, I was bluntly told that even if the request would gather enough !votes (it didn't), it would still not be considered as the devs do not have time for that. They on the other hand have time to write VE, MV, Superprotect. This is NOT a T&S problem only, it is a general situation with WMF that they seem not to consider the community and what the community wants. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:16, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- VE/MV were both in development for a long time and it was primarily that their development was so disconnected from the community that they being introduced received immediate backlash. As for superprotect, it was made to give WMF dictatorial rights, and I was, and I still am, in complete opposition to it, but bless the WMF for doing the correct thing and deprecating the right then. I agree that the WMF community engagement is well, not up to the mark, but that's probably an understatement. If I am right, though, you're referring to a MediaWiki extension, which although does intersect with the developers working on WMF sites, are done by different teams. And I am indeed aware of the voting system in place, the only way to sometimes get things done is to have a horde of editors agreeing with you, that there is an issue in the first place. I hope the WMF employs more people in technical areas with all the donations they get due to the hours we contribute for free, but I think, and I say this with great regret, the divide between the community and WMF is just getting wider and will continue being so. When WMF employees were involved in the community and worked in a close-knit group, things were better, but I doubt things will look like that anytime soon. But I'm sure, some of them, maybe a lot of them, are on our side, even if they were never editors in our community. --qedk (t 桜 c) 12:53, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @QEDK: although I agree that these two parts of WMF are not related, I also have the same type of comments on yet another part of WMF. I have now for 10 years been 'fighting' to get an extension overhauled (one that regularly results in questions from the community), and have in the last 2 years written a suggestion in the yearly meta community wishlist. In this last year, I was bluntly told that even if the request would gather enough !votes (it didn't), it would still not be considered as the devs do not have time for that. They on the other hand have time to write VE, MV, Superprotect. This is NOT a T&S problem only, it is a general situation with WMF that they seem not to consider the community and what the community wants. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:16, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Exactly. It is a third part of WMF that shows an utter disconnect from editor community. The WMF has their own plan, and what the community wants/accepts/needs does not matter. And that criticism is utterly ignored by WMF (and other bodies have similar tendencies) ... until you break someone's back and they lash out (and normally ArbCom would then pull out the banhammer, remove the editor, not the problem). Their (WMF's) response here, banning Fram, is the same, but it just resulted in more of the community lashing out (and I don't think we ran out of 'rogue admins', you can just wait for the next situation). You don't solve the tumor, you remove the symptom. I'm sorry, all of us, editors and admins alike, 'harass' vandals, spammers, COI-editors, copyright violators, editors who do not or insufficiently cite their sources and you name it (and some of them are utter persistent). There are two ways of stopping that harassment: block the editor, or give them the tools to solve the problem. That is why we have pillars, policies and guidelines, but WMF (and similarly, often, ArbCom) choses to use the opposite, ban the editor and deny them the proper tools. --Dirk Beetstra T C 19:24, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Swarm: I disagree about your summation of the 'unblockself' change, this was certainly done in coordination with community discussions to meet a need, these discussions led to the building of the special vengenceblock exception that was also incorporated at the time. — xaosflux Talk 15:34, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Agreed. There was significant discussion on phabricator as well as other projects. Due to the global nature of account security, it was an action taken globally, and the WMF cannot ignore editors and discussions from other projects to favor English ones. Vermont (talk) 20:22, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't selfunblock removed in responce to the rash of account compromises (during which two admins were hit)? —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 20:32, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Agreed. There was significant discussion on phabricator as well as other projects. Due to the global nature of account security, it was an action taken globally, and the WMF cannot ignore editors and discussions from other projects to favor English ones. Vermont (talk) 20:22, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
From admin to one-year block, in a blink of an eye
Can I just clarify, and I know we've had 100KB of chatter, so forgive me once again... Fram went from being an admin, to being banned with no right to appeal, on en.wiki only, in one instant? Was he issued with on-wiki warnings? Was he subject to a series of increasing blocks as a result of bad behaviour (sic)? Was his behaviour damaging to Wikipedia, in a sense that needed a ban, on this Wikipedia only? I'm tired out by the MB of blather, but is WMF looking at this as a precedent now, that any editor can be summarily banned for a year without appeal without any definition of their wrongdoing? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, that is exactly my concern. I have no idea whether Frsm's behaviour warranted sanction and I'm not inclined to go and look through mountains of edits on en.wiki to find out. However, taking precipitate action based on secret allegations presented in secret by a secret accuser to a secret panel is simply a total abrogation of natural justice. As far as I am concerned the WMF should refuse to accept secret accusations and expecially should refuse to act on them. This stinks to high heaven. - Nick Thorne talk 22:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Seems like the answer is yes, it was in one instant, with no on-wiki warnings. Several off-wiki messages were sent, snippets of which can be seen at #An interesting paragraph and #Fram's response on Commons. --Yair rand (talk) 22:31, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- Apparently, any of us could be banned out of the blue if we were to write "f*** the WMF." Jonathunder (talk) 22:38, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- As I understand it, the basis of the block and desysop was harassment and the evidence is private so as not to subject the accuser to further harassment. If this is indeed the truth, I can understand shielding him/her because it often feels like a mob here. Liz Read! Talk! 01:41, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- If it was harassment, then why did they not escalate Fram's block to global in responce to his Commons reply? Anyone with any sense can make a very compelling argument that they're technically furthering the harassment. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 01:47, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Harassment of whom? AFAIK, there are only two parties who've been named in this whole mess as possible victims. Arbcom and an editor who's wikipedia name begins L. While some here have gone to the extent of looking in to the personal life of the latter editor, we have no real evidence that any of the recent stuff has anything to do with this editor. I'm doubtful it's just the arbcom stuff either which suggests it could very well be some other party.
WMF have explained why they feel they cannot reveal any details which may lead to the identity of who is being harassed or other details over this while mess, whether or not people agree with these views I see no reason to think they aren't sincerely held. As someone who lives in NZ where name suppression of criminal defendants and especially convicts is often a big deal, I can say that while plenty of people feel that it creates problems for others who aren't the defendant or convict given the risk people may think it is them (as some details are still revealed like 'prominent entertainer'), there are also plenty of people who feel it's not a compelling reason to end the practice. (Which doesn't mean they must agree with the practice or feel that it should continue.)
Likewise, I can perfectly understand that the WMF may feel it is inappropriate for them to comment on the identity in any way, even simply saying it it is not the person a lot of people are assuming it is. How they handle the problems this creates for the person who may have been unfairly affected I don't know, but there are no easy solutions.
And getting back to the earlier point, assuming that what Fram has told us is mostly or completely correct, I'm not sure they can really be blamed for the fact that people here are continually assuming it involves someone who who it may not be because they've made assumptions with very little evidence to the extent these people are analysing said person's private life. If anything it's the people here who are guilty of harassment, not Fram or what they said on Commons. But of course, with the way this blew up, banning more people for harassment was may not be a good idea.
Oh and of course what has happened here has pretty much ensured that if it is someone else who was affected (who let's remember may or may not even be the complainant, here they may not even be aware of the complaint), as much sympathy as the person may have for the editor L and how they've been affected by this all, there is no way in hell they will ever agree to their identity being revealed. Frankly I suspect probably not even to Fram even if Fram signs an NDA. Heck given the history, probably not even to arbcom. No matter what the situation was and even if in the end it means nothing happens to Fram. The WMF needs to consider whether this is an acceptable outcome based on what they know. If they do not, I really have no idea how they should proceed from here, that's one of the reasons why I'd probably never work in any role remotely like that. (To be clear, as I've said in previous discussions, I do think they handled this poorly especially early on which hasn't helped the situation any.)
- If it was harassment, then why did they not escalate Fram's block to global in responce to his Commons reply? Anyone with any sense can make a very compelling argument that they're technically furthering the harassment. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 01:47, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, let's try it. Fuck the WMF! Nope, not banned yet. Gamaliel (talk) 01:50, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not so soon. Remember it takes about a month of internal meetings and quite a lot of expensive staff time to then issue a punishment so long after the event that it only serves to confuse the situation and increase the nameless dread aspect of editing. Of course this may actually be the WMF's intention. The occasional random block of an established editor for unspecified but slightly creepy sounding reasons could be just the thing to boost their metrics for site activity and bond the community against the common enemy. By contrast if they wanted to change behaviour on the site they would have made sure that the first few times they applied a 12 month ban it was very clear what sort of behaviour they wanted to stop happening. ϢereSpielChequers 11:08, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- If an IP editor attempted to insert this kind of conspiracy theory in an article they'd get blocked. But we have dozens of long-time veteran editors indulging in them in this matter. It makes me fear for the quality of the content that they have been producing here over the years. Gamaliel (talk) 12:51, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- From what I've seen, much better than an admonished administrator who seems to have a general proficiency at casting aspersions. ∯WBGconverse 13:50, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I fail to see a parallel between an unknown IP posting conspiracy theories in mainspace and numerous respected, well-established members of the community sharing their concerns on a Wikipedia-space page. Lepricavark (talk) 21:47, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- If an IP editor attempted to insert this kind of conspiracy theory in an article they'd get blocked. But we have dozens of long-time veteran editors indulging in them in this matter. It makes me fear for the quality of the content that they have been producing here over the years. Gamaliel (talk) 12:51, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- See appeal to the stone.--WaltCip (talk) 12:17, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Frankly, the reaction on this page, with theories proposed about the potential harassed parties and quite a bit of scrutiny placed upon them and their edit histories demonstrates clearly why it's good that WMF won't reveal the names of the offended parties. I am also somewhat confused that Fram was given only a year-long suspension, as I do fully support throwing the book at harassers, but frankly the complaint from the community has not generally been, "Fram was not penalized severely enough for what they were accused of," but rather, "how dare the WMF suspend one of the WP:UNBLOCKABLES!" Simonm223 (talk) 12:56, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I mean, come on, people have been digging into the personal lives, up to, and including living arrangements, of hypothesized accusers on the basis of Fram's account. That's kind of disturbing to say the least. Far more disturbing, tbh, than what may constitute minor overreach from WMF. Simonm223 (talk) 13:17, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Dear Simonm223 One thing we know about this case is that T&S do permanently site ban people for harassment, but whatever they consider that Fram has done, they don't consider he merited the punishment that they give out to harassers. Whatever else has been said, I'm not seeing people say that T&S should stop "throwing the book at harassers". As for unblockables, yes there are people suggesting that WP:UNBLOCKABLES be redefined to include Fram. But there are also people reminding us that Fram has in the past been the brave admin threatening to block an unblockable if that person continued to make personal attacks. As for "people have been digging into the personal lives, up to, and including living arrangements, of hypothesized accusers on the basis of Fram's account" that does sound like the sort of doxxing that does get people banned. I'd hope if people have evidence of that they would take it to ArbCom who have banned and desysopped people for that sort of thing. ϢereSpielChequers 18:19, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I mean, come on, people have been digging into the personal lives, up to, and including living arrangements, of hypothesized accusers on the basis of Fram's account. That's kind of disturbing to say the least. Far more disturbing, tbh, than what may constitute minor overreach from WMF. Simonm223 (talk) 13:17, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Frankly, the reaction on this page, with theories proposed about the potential harassed parties and quite a bit of scrutiny placed upon them and their edit histories demonstrates clearly why it's good that WMF won't reveal the names of the offended parties. I am also somewhat confused that Fram was given only a year-long suspension, as I do fully support throwing the book at harassers, but frankly the complaint from the community has not generally been, "Fram was not penalized severely enough for what they were accused of," but rather, "how dare the WMF suspend one of the WP:UNBLOCKABLES!" Simonm223 (talk) 12:56, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Not so soon. Remember it takes about a month of internal meetings and quite a lot of expensive staff time to then issue a punishment so long after the event that it only serves to confuse the situation and increase the nameless dread aspect of editing. Of course this may actually be the WMF's intention. The occasional random block of an established editor for unspecified but slightly creepy sounding reasons could be just the thing to boost their metrics for site activity and bond the community against the common enemy. By contrast if they wanted to change behaviour on the site they would have made sure that the first few times they applied a 12 month ban it was very clear what sort of behaviour they wanted to stop happening. ϢereSpielChequers 11:08, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- As I understand it, the basis of the block and desysop was harassment and the evidence is private so as not to subject the accuser to further harassment. If this is indeed the truth, I can understand shielding him/her because it often feels like a mob here. Liz Read! Talk! 01:41, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Apparently, any of us could be banned out of the blue if we were to write "f*** the WMF." Jonathunder (talk) 22:38, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- in one instant?
- Yes
- Was he issued with on-wiki warnings?
- No
- Was he subject to a series of increasing blocks as a result of bad behaviour (sic)?
- No
- Was his behaviour damaging to Wikipedia, in a sense that needed a ban
- No
- on this Wikipedia only?
- Yes
- is WMF looking at this as a precedent now, that any editor can be summarily banned for a year without appeal without any definition of their wrongdoing?
- Ostensibly yes.
- Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:07, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- More troubling is the explicit lying from WMF employees.
- The (uncontested) WMF email sent to Fram states "With those actions in mind, this ban has been triggered following your recent abusive communications on the project..." followed by the "fuck Arbcom" diff, but later this has been retrospectively reframed (firstly anonymously by "WMF Office" on this page, then by statements from Jan Eissfeldt) as all being about harassment complaints sent to WMF T&S. Nobody can find any smoking gun that demonstrates harassment and folks have jumped to the conclusion that there must be some terrible off-wiki harassment going on. If that was the case, then why would not the WMF email state clearly and honestly that you are banned because of complaints received of serious harassment, rather than lie about it? Not only do the responses from WMF T&S make no sense, they appear to be deliberately designed to be misleading and misinformation. Consequently the unelected WMF T&S employees with access to the WMF Office account are reserving the authority to ban without appeal, without a fair right to see and respond to evidence, in cases which appear entirely suitable to leave it to Arbcom or Stewards to make proper decisions about sanctions, but also to explicitly lie to everyone before and after about why they are blocking editors, even well established Wikipedians.
- Separately others are acting as creative apologists, explaining that the WMF cannot say anything about harassment because of the legal exposure. Fine, that still does not explain the lying. There is zero legal exposure from honestly stating to Fram that there is both on-wiki behaviour and off-wiki behaviour that has contributed to "abusing communications", or that complaints about targeted harassment have been received, then point to the process for handing T&S harassment complaints. In the struggle to have their cake and eat it, the WMF appears to both want to pretend to be well governed and transparent, while behaving like self appointed sheriffs in the Wild West of San Fran, who are taking pot shots at perps using international modern drone strikes, because they can, rather than bothering with the flimflam of justice and juries. --Fæ (talk) 03:38, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- This. The only thing they have bothered to claim when pressed is the nonsensical "everything about this mmatter is privileged", a claim which is belied by T&S' own actions in not sanctioning Fram for their Commons edit and by longstanding precedent with regard to Office bans, which at least explains the reason for doing so at time of blocking (none was forthcoming until after Fram's Commons post). Not only did they not provide a reason until much later, after everything blew up in their face, but they have not provided a satisfactory explanation as to why the ban is limited as it is. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 05:12, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- My hypothesis that someone originally issued the ban for less than adequate reasons. It might be simple inexperience or error of judgement, but there are speculations that it might be due to a personal request or as a favour. Now that the issue has exploded, the WMF has circled the wagons and tries to come up with retroactive justifications. This happens more easily than one might think, and sometimes for the best of reasons (a manager sticking up for an employee on his or her team, then getting ego-bound to that initial reaction is quite normal). I hope they have the institutional integrity to extract themselves from this mess. Errors are unavoidable, but they should be corrected, not extended. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:29, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- This. The only thing they have bothered to claim when pressed is the nonsensical "everything about this mmatter is privileged", a claim which is belied by T&S' own actions in not sanctioning Fram for their Commons edit and by longstanding precedent with regard to Office bans, which at least explains the reason for doing so at time of blocking (none was forthcoming until after Fram's Commons post). Not only did they not provide a reason until much later, after everything blew up in their face, but they have not provided a satisfactory explanation as to why the ban is limited as it is. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 05:12, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Table of relevant locations
I hope I'm not the only one to struggle to stay on top of all aspects of this issue. While thankfully, much of it is centralized on this page, some bits show up in other places. I put together a crude table to keep track of the main locations and fully aware that this isn't exhaustive — for example there are posts on individual editors talk pages including some of contributed to, that aren't listed but I think I have the major ones. I'd obviously be interested in knowing if I have any major omissions. Virtually everything in the table as it now exists is "current" information — I'm thinking of adding on historic section with information on, for example, Ani, and Arbcom come cases involving Fram. My expectation is that it would remain on this page for some time, and then be copied over to the summary archives.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:25, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Location | Type | Link | Comments | Size (24 June)[1] |
---|---|---|---|---|
Community response | ||||
En | WP | Community response... (WP:Fram )
|
Main page (see also numbered archives
and named archives listed below) |
687k |
En | WP | Archive 1 ... | There are a lot of archives, the link is to the first | 152k, ... |
En | Talk | CR...Talk | Talk page | 77k |
En | Talk | Archive 1, Archive 2, Archive 3 | Archives | 144k,152k, 25k |
En | WP | CR.../Summary (WP:FRAMSUM )
|
Useful timelines | 14k |
En | WP | CR.../Proposals about WMF | Proposals about WMF Office | 34k |
En | WP | CR.../General Proposals | General Proposals | 175k |
En | WP | CR.../Fram's response | Originally on Commons and copied over | 22k |
En | WP | CR...Jan Eissfeldt | 10k | |
En | WP | CR.../Community Conduct | An essay on civility[2] | 11k |
Location | Type | Link | Comments | Size |
Administrator noticeboard | ||||
En | WP:AN | AN | Several proposals, all closed without action | |
En | WP:AN | AN | "Appropriate responses to FRAMBAN" | |
En | WP:ANI | ANI twitter | Brief kerfuffle related to Twitter issue | |
Village pump | ||||
En | WP:VP | Proposed 'crat power | Proposed, but quickly closed without action | |
Bureaucrat noticeboard | ||||
En | WP:BN | Fram Banned | Original notice, subsequently moved to WP:Fram | |
En | WP:BN | Desysop BU Rob13, Desysop Nick, Desysop The DJ and more | User request–granted[3], User request–granted... too many to list, see the BN generally | |
En | WP:BN | Desysop Floquenbeam | Notice of action | |
En | WP:BN | Resysop Floquenbeam | User request–granted by WJBscribe
(review by ArbCom requested) |
|
User talk pages | ||||
Location | Type | Link | Comments | Size |
En | U Talk | User talk:WMFOffice | Several messages intended for WMFOffice | 21k |
En | U Talk | Fram Banned, Board meeting?
more WMF questions, Who put the WMF in charge? |
Six threads on Jimbos talk page | |
En | U Talk | Notice to Fram | Only the notice at the top of the page is relevant | |
En | U Talk | Questions for Katherine | A few editors request some response about a tweet | |
En | U Talk | Katherine Mayer responds | Comments about the tweet and other issues[4] | |
Arbitration | ||||
Location | Type | Link | Comments | Size |
En | WP:Arb | Arbcom WJBscribe | Self report regarding the resysop of Floquenbeam | 218k |
En | WP | [34] [35] | Edits leading to second warning [5] | |
En | WT:Arb | Precipitating edit? | Claimed to be the edit which led to the ban | |
En | WT:Arb | Request for a comment | Request that Arbcom comment on the ban issue | |
En | WT:Arb | Can we handle harassment? | Discussion of Arbcom role vis-a-vis T&S | Whole page is 243k |
En | WP:Arb | Case request regarding Signpost article[6] | Case request invo;ing Signpost article about Fram | |
En | WT:Arb | Update from the Arbitration Committee | The initial notification that ArbCom is to take on the case | |
En | WP:Arb | Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram | Arbitration case regarding Fram's behavior | |
Meta & Commons | ||||
Location | Type | Link | Comments | Size |
Meta | Meta | Office Actions[7] | Office actions Policy (on Meta) | 51k |
Meta | Meta | User reporting system consultation 2019[8] | User reporting system consultation 2019 | 21K since 13 June 2019 |
Meta | Talk | m:Talk:Trust and Safety#FYI | Standards for a fair process [9] | |
Commons | U Talk | Fram's Talk page | Most, but not all the material is relevant. Note: Commons asked that the discussion is taken somewhere more fitting. See below. | 65k |
Meta | U Talk | Fram's Talk page | Communication with Fram continues here, as Meta is the better Wiki for talking about this issue. | 19k |
Miscellaneous post-incident pages | ||||
En | WP | Office actions[7] (WP:OA )
|
Office actions Policy | 46k |
En | WP:Afd | Fram controversy | Discussion of draft article, leaning toward merge | |
En | WP | June Signpost | Several relevant articles | |
Location | Type | Link | Comments | Size |
Location | Type | Link | Comments | Size |
---|---|---|---|---|
Email lists | Wikipedia Mailing lists | |||
Social media | Pseudo thinkpiece (K Mayer), Monolith misnomer (K Mayer) | Tweets from the Executive Director[10] | ||
BuzzFeed | Media coverage | The Culture War Has Finally Come For Wikipedia | Buzzfeed article by Joseph Bernstein | |
Breitbart | Media coverage | Wikipedia Editors Revolt over Site’s Ban of Veteran Administrator | Breitbart article by T.D. Adler | |
Slate | Media coverage | Wikipedia’s “Constitutional Crisis” Pits Community Against Foundation | Slate article by Stephen Harrison |
Location | Type | Link | Comments | Size |
---|---|---|---|---|
En | WP:Arb | Fram Arbcom 2018 | Case Declined | |
En | WP:Arb | Fram Arbcom 2016 | Case Declined | |
En | WP:Arb | Crosswiki issues | A case initiated by Fram, but declined | |
En | WP:Arb | Dr. Blofeld | A case initiated by Fram, but declined | |
En | WP:ANI | Request for desysop of Fram | Did not happen | |
En | WP:ANI | ANI Complaint about Fram 2016 | Ended up as boomerang | |
En | WP:AN | AN complaint about insults 2013 | See subsection Administrator Fram | |
En | WP:ANI | Request for TBAN 2017 | Didn't happen | |
En | WP:ANI | Block review 2019 | Block issued by Fram reviewed and accepted |
- ^ I'm going to stop updating these numbers - you get the picture
- ^ Specifically mentions FramBan as motivation for this essay
- ^ Not caused by the WMF's actions here, but by the community's.
- ^ Note that some other threads on this talk page are also related to Fram issues
- ^ These were linked in Fram's response, but deserve separate mention
- ^ Link probably needs updating if case accepted
- ^ a b Although this page does not directly reference Fram, it the basis for the ban
- ^ No reference to Fram, but many editors have discussed how we ought to move forward and this page is very relevant to that discussion
- ^ No direct reference to Fram but arising out of this incident
- ^ See also followup tweets; notably, one where she explains why she did not delete the tweet
- An essay on civility pertaining to the discussion was drafted earlier at Wikipedia:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram/Community conduct, along with a few signatories. TheAustinMan(Talk ⬩ Edits) 00:36, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- TheAustinMan, Done--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:53, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Excellent work, Sphilbrick. Thank you so much for this. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:37, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- The resysop of Floquenbeam request on BN was granted in that a bureaucrat resysopped him. That action is under review in the ArbCom case request, but it happened nonetheless. The box should say "granted by WJBScribe". Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I've made that change. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:15, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Beyond My Ken, Thanks S Philbrick(Talk) 13:24, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I've made that change. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:15, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Sphilbrick: - if you include the Precipitating edit, you should also include diffs of the prior edits for which the second warning occurred. starship.paint (talk) 03:51, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Starship.paint, Done S Philbrick(Talk) 14:21, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I would classify this discussion: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Can we handle harassment? as relevant.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:38, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ymblanter, Done Given that I contributed to that discussion I should never have missed that. Thanks for noticing. S Philbrick(Talk) 13:44, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Also User talk:WMFOffice and Fram's talk page on Commons. There are various threads on various user talk pages too but I don't know how far you want to go with that. --Rschen7754 06:43, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Done I initially didn't include Fram's talk page on Commons when the only content was his response that had been copied over to the main page but there is substantial additional discussion, so I agree it should be added, which I have done. As for User talk:WMFOffice, This is a perfect example of why I posted this table here, on the chance that I was missing some important pieces.S Philbrick(Talk) 13:15, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think it's important to note that my resignation wasn't caused by the WMF's actions here, but by the community's. Not sure if that note can go in the table somehow, but I do not want the impression given that my resignation was "anti-WMF" (or, equivalently, "anti-people-who-are-trying-to-stop-harassment"). ~ Rob13Talk 07:05, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- BU Rob13, I added an explanatory footnote S Philbrick(Talk) 13:45, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- You could add m:Talk:Trust and Safety#FYI.Mautpreller (talk) 08:01, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Mautpreller, Done A little concerned about getting too far removed from directly related to incident, but I did add this S Philbrick(Talk) 14:21, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you! Good work, Sphilbrick - much appreciated. Atsme Talk 📧 11:15, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Adding some talk pages would help highlight some relevant discussions (I don't think linking to such discussions should be avoided if they are relevant). Diffs to key statements by the following people would also help: User:JEissfeldt (WMF) ([36]; [37]; [38]; [39]), User:SPoore (WMF) ([40]; [41]; [42]), User:Jimbo Wales ([43]; [44]; [45]; [46]; [47]; [48]; [49]; [50]; [51]; [52]; [53]; [54]; [55]) and User:Doc James ([56]; [57]; [58]; [59]; [60]; [61]; [62]; [63]; [64]; [65]; [66]; [67]; [68]; [69]; [70]; [71]; [72]) and the responses to what Sandstein posted in various locations (the user talk pages of the members of the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation): [73], [74], [75], [76], [77], [78]. For Pundit see [79], [80], [81], [82], [83]. For Raystorm see [84], [85], [86], [87] (multiple replies in last diff). No responses from NTymkiv (WMF) and Schiste. See also the section summarising the threads at User talk:Jimbo Wales, see #Responses by Jimbo (Jimmy Wales) up above. Carcharoth (talk) 13:53, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Carcharoth, Yikes. Give me a few minutes. S Philbrick(Talk) 14:23, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I might have gone overboard there. You may want to co-ordinate some of this with the summary page at Wikipedia:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram/Summary. I think the facts of a WMF board meeting and a phone meeting between WMF and ArbCom need highlighting in the timelines. Carcharoth (talk) 14:37, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Carcharoth, Yikes. Give me a few minutes. S Philbrick(Talk) 14:23, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Sphilbrick: maybe this should be moved to either it's own subpage here or WT:FRAM? Either way, Crosswiki issues (a declined arbcom case) is relevant here as well as some user talk pages of the key players. Cheers, –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 05:06, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
RfC draft
I intend to open an RfC on the subject of the Trust&Safety resp. WMF justice on Meta, with the main issue of fair trial. I wrote a draft in English which is not my native language (as it's the main language of Meta). What do you think about it? I invite you to work on this, esp. concerning factual and language errors. See de:User:Mautpreller/Meta. Mautpreller (talk) 08:22, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Wikimedia Belgium concerns about WMF
--qedk (t 桜 c) 17:11, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Not strictly related, but worth pointing out as it also concerns Trust and Safety actions. See this wikimedia-l post and thread: New board for Wikimedia Belgium + evaluation behaviour WMF. Long, but worth at least skim reading. Ends with: "At the General Assembly it was requested to request an internal audit in WMF to bring all the problems there to the light.". Carcharoth (talk) 16:51, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- This is probably one of the most scathing things that I've come across about the Trust & Safety team, and this is much, much worse than anything I've heard anywhere else. I'm moving this to the main page for further discussion with a set locus, I'll provide a summary explanation right after. --qedk (t 桜 c) 17:10, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think this recent revelation deserves more discussion here, primarily because a lot of the community has operated under the conclusion that T&S has operated in an demonstrably bad, and probably accidental manner. But, reading the email thread above proves the fact that is behaviour that T&S has engaged in before, which makes it so much rarer that this was an incident gone bad, and not WMF overreaching their authority because they feel they have a right to. Keeping in mind, that multiple editors, some involved with the WMF stated that this should have been done better, if it was so, why is there no proper outcome yet? If T&S can bully entire organizations, I'm sure Fram is pebble lying by and it's even more worrying that this is the same Trust & Safety team that chose, and this is me paraphrasing, took a decision which went across desks and various levels of staff. I'm sorry but this just sounds like an echo room to me, where someone from the team just decides what to do and everyone goes with it. Is this team even capable of handling the other situations we entrust to them? I'm not so sure. But if I'm sure of anything, it is that our approach to this particular group of people (and the WMF as a whole) needs to change, including how we are choosing to respond as a community. --qedk (t 桜 c) 17:19, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I recall the Wikimania incident, it stuck with me because as a partially deaf person I also get the too loud and too close comments occasionally, I didn't realise (I don't think it was public previously) all the rest of it, only what was released on the mailing list. This is frankly evidence of an ongoing professional negligence issue within the WMF T&S team. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:17, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Wait, they signed off on using T&S to harass a disabled guy? Why the fuck do any of you let these people tell you what to do? They clearly are not worthy of your trust. If this incident had happened in the US, that guy could have sued for discrimination against him due to his disability and had a pretty good chance of winning. Jtrainor (talk) 19:00, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- TLDR for people reading the above comment: Someone at Grants worked in cohort with T&S to harass the treasurer of WMBE at a public conference, who btw was also disabled. Let that sink in. --qedk (t 桜 c) 19:13, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- If you read the responses in the thread, a sizable share of the responses attack the credibility of the person who wrote this email, despite that at least one person has stepped up to confirm at least part of the story. -- llywrch (talk) 20:05, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- The person who alleged they were harassed, confirmed the story and stated that they didn't want to be mentioned like this, but you're forgetting the context in which the email was written and the fact that they weren't asked to disclose their identity, nor was it disclosed (it is written as "anonymous complaints"). They made the assertion in the public forum, is that somehow the fault of the person? I really don't understand. As for the credibility of the person, it did eventually turn out to be a WMBE statement, which was written by a different person, so, again, I do not get your point. --qedk (t 桜 c) 20:15, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't think my comment was vague. I simply pointed out that a number of people attacked the person who wrote the email, undermining the writer's credibility, instead of discussing what was contained in the email: ad hominem attacks. Which I hope it's clear I don't endorse. FWIW, a surprising share of the emails in the foundation mailing list were dismissive of our concerns in this matter, evidently believing the Foundation can do no wrong. -- llywrch (talk) 21:15, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- "...evidently believing the Foundation can do no wrong." Sadly, we've had a number of such comments on this very page. Enigmamsg 21:20, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying. I get your point now, I took you in the manner exactly opposite and replied in that regard, apologies for that. --qedk (t 桜 c) 21:26, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't think my comment was vague. I simply pointed out that a number of people attacked the person who wrote the email, undermining the writer's credibility, instead of discussing what was contained in the email: ad hominem attacks. Which I hope it's clear I don't endorse. FWIW, a surprising share of the emails in the foundation mailing list were dismissive of our concerns in this matter, evidently believing the Foundation can do no wrong. -- llywrch (talk) 21:15, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- The person who alleged they were harassed, confirmed the story and stated that they didn't want to be mentioned like this, but you're forgetting the context in which the email was written and the fact that they weren't asked to disclose their identity, nor was it disclosed (it is written as "anonymous complaints"). They made the assertion in the public forum, is that somehow the fault of the person? I really don't understand. As for the credibility of the person, it did eventually turn out to be a WMBE statement, which was written by a different person, so, again, I do not get your point. --qedk (t 桜 c) 20:15, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- If you read the responses in the thread, a sizable share of the responses attack the credibility of the person who wrote this email, despite that at least one person has stepped up to confirm at least part of the story. -- llywrch (talk) 20:05, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- TLDR for people reading the above comment: Someone at Grants worked in cohort with T&S to harass the treasurer of WMBE at a public conference, who btw was also disabled. Let that sink in. --qedk (t 桜 c) 19:13, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- As someone who has a spectrum disorder this is absolutely appalling for me, and demonstrates that T&S aren't trustworthy for their role. Being able to separate a legitimate complaint from a spurious one should be a requirement for that position. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 19:57, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- As someone who has both hearing loss *and* an autism spectrum disorder, I share your feelings. That's really gross on behalf of the WMF if true. Rockstonetalk to me! 20:34, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Note:
One of my personal concerns is the bigotry displayed in someone related to WMF making a comment–MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 20:02, 19 June 2019 (UTC)...suggesting that Belgium has no culture...
(per the email). This could have easily been rectified by WMF doing an internal investigation, but according to the email this was never done. Seriously, that is not okay. >:/ (edit conflict)- I'm striking my statement until we know more. mailarchive:wikimedia-l/2019-June/092829.html gives me pause. (edit conflict) –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 20:33, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Also this and this. @Pundit: Can you please set this conversation straight when you get the chance. It can probably use your personal insight before it gets too off-the-rails. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 20:48, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- The person in question stated in a later email that the way they were forced to step up is that the incident was being discussed, not that anyone actually forced the person, but that they felt like they were forced. They state that they had to step up to correct the wrong details when T&S had resolved the situation, which is questionable in its own right for two reasons: 1) the fact that they consider it harassment in bad faith when the person in question apologized for the behaviour which they stated was unintentional and might have been a product of their disability 2) there was never any proper investigation into the alleged harassment, simply that T&S took action. How in the hell is that permissible? --qedk (t 桜 c) 20:53, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Bluntly put: it's not. If T&S is going to be acting on harassment claims it behooves them to investigate these claims as discreetly as possible. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 21:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- My understanding is that at Wikimania T&S team acts when someone reports to them harassment or discomfort. Given the fact that there definitely are misunderstandings (relating from different cultures, possible disabilities, and many other factors) they are mainly focused on minimizing risks, e.g. by asking an involved party to not engage any more, without passing a judgment if they were intentionally harassing anyone. I would definitely find it upsetting to learn that I made someone uncomfortable to the level that they reported me and I understand why the person involved felt this way, too. However, I think that the thing is blown out of proportion right now. AFAIK nobody was banned from an event. The only consequences were common sense - somebody got upset by you for whatever reason? Try to avoid them. Of course, the problem is that the person contacted by T&S will often feel hurt, too - and we need to care about their well-being as well. Unless there is something I don't know about this case, I don't think there is anything clearly easily improvable in the procedures though. Of course we can always improve them, and cases like this definitely should be reflected upon. This is my personal view - I basically don't have a better idea how T&S could operate better without risking a situation in which harassment reports are ignored because they may be misunderstandings. There is no need for intentionality or bad will - in fact, I think that we probably should clarify that T&S team intervenes not only in the cases of harassment (which to many may be immediately associated with crimes). Pundit|utter 05:36, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- Bluntly put: it's not. If T&S is going to be acting on harassment claims it behooves them to investigate these claims as discreetly as possible. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 21:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- The person in question stated in a later email that the way they were forced to step up is that the incident was being discussed, not that anyone actually forced the person, but that they felt like they were forced. They state that they had to step up to correct the wrong details when T&S had resolved the situation, which is questionable in its own right for two reasons: 1) the fact that they consider it harassment in bad faith when the person in question apologized for the behaviour which they stated was unintentional and might have been a product of their disability 2) there was never any proper investigation into the alleged harassment, simply that T&S took action. How in the hell is that permissible? --qedk (t 桜 c) 20:53, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Also this and this. @Pundit: Can you please set this conversation straight when you get the chance. It can probably use your personal insight before it gets too off-the-rails. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 20:48, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm striking my statement until we know more. mailarchive:wikimedia-l/2019-June/092829.html gives me pause. (edit conflict) –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 20:33, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I would absolutely say that's related. I think it goes very much toward showing that this is not an isolated mistake, but rather may be indicative of a substantially deeper problem within T&S and perhaps the entire WMF. Especially serious are the allegations that the WMF sanctioned someone at least in part because he stood close to people to compensate for a hearing impairment, and mistreated people who had autism. (The latter especially hits home; I'm autistic myself.) If those things are true, they violate not only the WMF's own stated policy of nondiscrimination, but very possibly the law. In the US, that would be the Americans with Disabilities Act and many concurrent state regulations, and I'm sure European countries have analogous regulations prohibiting discrimination on the basis of disability. The fact that Trust & Safety did not apparently see fit to investigate and follow up on these very serious concerns show that this may not be an isolated instance of misjudgment, but rather point to a serious problem with the leadership and culture of that team (and makes a mockery out of any idea of them attempting to mitigate potential legal problems). Anyone who has been in management anywhere knows very, very well that when someone claims discrimination, you damn well better take that seriously. Blowing off discrimination complaints can be a very, very costly mistake, and does not uphold the WMF's fiduciary duties to those who donate to it. Paying for a preventable discrimination lawsuit would not be a good use of donor funds, to say nothing of the PR. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:29, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm as disturbed as anyone by the WMF banning an editor without any attempt at using the existing community based dispute mechanisms. However, I see this Belgium issue as so completely different in character that I think it's a potential distraction from the main issue at hand. Hopefully we will hear something soon from Doc James or Jimbo Wales as to whether there is any progress coming from recent the board meeting. Of course, it's better to do it right than to do it quickly.--Mojo Hand (talk) 22:37, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- It may be different in character, but the basic gist of it is not too dissimilar to leading theories about their behaviour here - T&S gets a report from someone who is feeling harassed, takes them at face value with little to no investigation, warns the person in as vague of terms as possible (thus making a course-correction impossible to do intentionally), and then sanctions them for not course-correcting. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Bori! 22:41, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- This response from a sitting trustee of the Wikimedia Foundation does not exactly inspire confidence. Beyond simply taking reports seriously, it strikes me as an implicit endorsement of confirmation bias a la irrational primacy. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:39, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Holy shit, that's frightening. First we have the WMF enabling harassment of a disabled officer of one of its constituent regional... uh... actually, I'm not sure exactly how to describe the relationship between WMF and WM Belgium. But WMF enabling harassment there, then blowing off concerns about it from all quarters, then having Trustees making excuses for T&S not doing their jobs. At a minimum, this demands an external audit of the WMF from top to bottom; it seems to indicate that T&S is running amok, and nobody else in the OFFICE is willing to try and stop it. rdfox 76 (talk) 23:45, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- "Wikimedia movement affiliates" is the official term. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 01:14, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- Holy shit, that's frightening. First we have the WMF enabling harassment of a disabled officer of one of its constituent regional... uh... actually, I'm not sure exactly how to describe the relationship between WMF and WM Belgium. But WMF enabling harassment there, then blowing off concerns about it from all quarters, then having Trustees making excuses for T&S not doing their jobs. At a minimum, this demands an external audit of the WMF from top to bottom; it seems to indicate that T&S is running amok, and nobody else in the OFFICE is willing to try and stop it. rdfox 76 (talk) 23:45, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- The good news about this is that WMBE should be in an excellent position to begin forking the project. They represent Belgian editors for a Belgian edition, and could probably win their independence quickly. A set of independent national Wikipedias probably is probably a good way to reduce the bureaucratic abuses and create redundancy against national censorship. The bad news is that the rest of us have a malfunctional T&S team trying to destroy our project. Anyone knowledgeable of COINTELPRO should be asking, who is trying to destroy WMF with moles? Is it a company, or a government? Wnt (talk) 23:45, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- I sincerely suspect it's just the same sort of bureaucratic incompetence you see in any organization as it matures, and all of which can be driven entirely by cognitive biases rather than malice: Middle managers are more interested in keeping their job than doing their job and work hard to create the appearance that their team is not only worth keeping, but must be expanded; higher ups have little to no idea what actually goes on lower down, especially if there is no bad press and money is rolling in; everyone pretends to be an expert in whatever they are doing; growth is considered a good thing without exception; and it is more important to appear to solve a problem than to even identify the problem, let alone actually solve it. In my opinion, a major cultural advantage of Wikipedia's local administration and ArbCom over T&S is that we don't pretend to be the perfect, unimpeachable experts on conflict resolution, but instead consent to having our actions reviewed, as most of us admit to just being amateurs trying our best. "I am better off than he is,—for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows; I neither know nor think that I know." I will admit the possibility that I am completely wrong about everything here, but the deliberate opacity we've been met with makes it impossible to tell the difference. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:29, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- Someguy1221, I think you've hit upon a possible part of the issue. We see all these levels of review on the charts Jan and Sydney have posted above—but all those reviews are internal to WMF. And if someone says "no" to one, they still have to come to work with the people they just snubbed the next day. On-wiki, we know what we don't know, so to speak, so we've built in checks and balances. Admins have special permissions, but taking an action with one of those tools always generates a publicly-viewable log, and those actions are subject to review at Deletion Review, by posting an {{unblock}} request or contacting UTRS, objecting to the action at ANI, or any number of other means, and admins can always be held to account by ArbCom. For functionaries (checkuser/oversight), those things can't be reviewable publicly for obvious reasons, but the functionaries are reviewed by one another. (And having been on those teams, I can tell you that those peer reviews do in fact happen with some frequency; they're not just a hypothetical possibility). And of course, they can also be reviewed and held to account by ArbCom. ArbCom itself does indeed handle some matters that can't be disclosed to others, but ArbCom itself is reviewable by the community every year at election time. So, yes, that kind of stuff can happen. And that's not even necessarily to assert malice. It just may very well be that someone who's reviewing the decision might know that Joe generally knows his stuff, and dammit I've got five thousand things to catch up on, so, sure, I'll take a quick look at his ban proposal, looks fine, sign off, move on to the next thing I need to do today, failing to catch the crucial piece of context that Joe also missed. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:15, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Seraphimblade: you know I hadn't even considered groupthink, which you seem to be suggesting as playing a part. This is also in line with Llywrch's observation about the general dismissiveness in the email thread. It makes sense. Create for yourself a system where you are accountable to no one outside your little group, and you can choose to side with that little group, or with what is essentially a bunch of randos. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:44, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- Someguy1221, I think you've hit upon a possible part of the issue. We see all these levels of review on the charts Jan and Sydney have posted above—but all those reviews are internal to WMF. And if someone says "no" to one, they still have to come to work with the people they just snubbed the next day. On-wiki, we know what we don't know, so to speak, so we've built in checks and balances. Admins have special permissions, but taking an action with one of those tools always generates a publicly-viewable log, and those actions are subject to review at Deletion Review, by posting an {{unblock}} request or contacting UTRS, objecting to the action at ANI, or any number of other means, and admins can always be held to account by ArbCom. For functionaries (checkuser/oversight), those things can't be reviewable publicly for obvious reasons, but the functionaries are reviewed by one another. (And having been on those teams, I can tell you that those peer reviews do in fact happen with some frequency; they're not just a hypothetical possibility). And of course, they can also be reviewed and held to account by ArbCom. ArbCom itself does indeed handle some matters that can't be disclosed to others, but ArbCom itself is reviewable by the community every year at election time. So, yes, that kind of stuff can happen. And that's not even necessarily to assert malice. It just may very well be that someone who's reviewing the decision might know that Joe generally knows his stuff, and dammit I've got five thousand things to catch up on, so, sure, I'll take a quick look at his ban proposal, looks fine, sign off, move on to the next thing I need to do today, failing to catch the crucial piece of context that Joe also missed. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:15, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- I sincerely suspect it's just the same sort of bureaucratic incompetence you see in any organization as it matures, and all of which can be driven entirely by cognitive biases rather than malice: Middle managers are more interested in keeping their job than doing their job and work hard to create the appearance that their team is not only worth keeping, but must be expanded; higher ups have little to no idea what actually goes on lower down, especially if there is no bad press and money is rolling in; everyone pretends to be an expert in whatever they are doing; growth is considered a good thing without exception; and it is more important to appear to solve a problem than to even identify the problem, let alone actually solve it. In my opinion, a major cultural advantage of Wikipedia's local administration and ArbCom over T&S is that we don't pretend to be the perfect, unimpeachable experts on conflict resolution, but instead consent to having our actions reviewed, as most of us admit to just being amateurs trying our best. "I am better off than he is,—for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows; I neither know nor think that I know." I will admit the possibility that I am completely wrong about everything here, but the deliberate opacity we've been met with makes it impossible to tell the difference. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:29, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Jimbo's authority
At the top of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/History
Until the beginning of 2004, Jimbo Wales dealt with all serious disputes other than simple vandalism (straightforward vandals could be blocked by any administrator). He was also the only person with the authority to ban users. In December 2003 he delegated[1] that role in dispute handling to an Arbitration Committee, with initial membership of volunteer experienced users. Wales wrote in January 2004:[2]
The Arbitration Committee [...] can impose a solution that I'll consider to be binding, with of course the exception that I reserve the right of executive clemency and indeed even to dissolve the whole thing if it turns out to be a disaster. But I regard that as unlikely, and I plan to do it about as often as the Queen of England dissolves Parliament against their wishes, i.e., basically never, but it is one last safety valve for our values.
In April 2007,[3] Wales confirmed that the Committee could overturn any decision he makes in his traditional capacity within Wikipedia.
Maybe the above will help. Atsme Talk 📧 21:54, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Sources
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- Rather interesting. Thank you for this reminder. I gather that the community was meant to have the final say if there was a dissent between the community and Jimbo, or the Foundation. This makes case law.--Aschmidt (talk) 22:55, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
And a week ago:
- I'd like to remind everyone that it is my long established view that all bans are appealable to me. I seldom intervene, even if I have some minor disagreement with a ban, because no major constitutional issues or errors are at stake.... If an error has been made, I'm sure they will revert and work out procedures to make sure it didn't happen again. If the ban was justified, I'm sure they will find a way to make it clear to - at a minimum, if privacy issues play a role, to me, to the board, and to the Arbitration Committee.... --Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
I asked the WMFOffice account whether they agree with Jimbo here, and asked the same of Jan here and on his staff talk page without any reply. I also asked Arbcom and on Meta, at the User Reporting System Consultation and the Roles & Responsibilities and Community Health strategy working groups. There has been no answer to the question anywhere yet. EllenCT (talk) 22:59, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
- Well, we speak about a binding pledge upon myself, so it is an irrevocable move. I remember this period in the founding of Wikipedia because when I was a member of the German ArbCom I researched the history of the ArbComs, how they came into being and how they developed up to then. Jimbo was quite keen to get rid of his role as a benevolent dictator at the time. This was not just for fun, and it cannot later be undone.--Aschmidt (talk) 00:00, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- This discussion is largely moot. Wiki(m|p)edia has no legal system, no case law. We have a set of community and Foundation policies and governance structures. Jimbo has exactly as much authority as the community and Foundation say he has: at the Foundation, he has no authority beyond his board seat, and within the community, he only has the technical ability to perform actions on the English Wikipedia. Functions previously held by him are now held by elected and accountable members of the community. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 00:20, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- WP:BAN#Appeal to Jimbo Wales (along with WP:ARBPOL#Appeal of decisions) recognizes Jimbo as the final avenue of appeal for the banned. If the Foundation thinks an unnanounced edit to WP:OFFICE can contravene Section 10 of the Terms of Use ("In contrast to ... these Terms of Use, policies established by the community ... may cover a single Project") then how can they claim that their bans are unappealable? EllenCT (talk) 04:43, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- The scope of the WMF to sanction users is not limited in section 10 of the ToU. T&S bans are unappealable regardless of what local policies may exist. And even if ambiguous wording in the ToU might imply that T&S is bound by local policies in this regard, it would be an issue of clarifying the wording rather than T&S acting outside of their scope. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 04:51, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- WP:BAN#Appeal to Jimbo Wales (along with WP:ARBPOL#Appeal of decisions) recognizes Jimbo as the final avenue of appeal for the banned. If the Foundation thinks an unnanounced edit to WP:OFFICE can contravene Section 10 of the Terms of Use ("In contrast to ... these Terms of Use, policies established by the community ... may cover a single Project") then how can they claim that their bans are unappealable? EllenCT (talk) 04:43, 20 June 2019 (UTC)