→Dispute resolution process: my being snide |
→Refactored from AE: dishonest nature of "neighborhoood" |
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::::::Moreover, please do not accuse other editors of operation sock puppets as you did in the above post. —[[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 21:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC) |
::::::Moreover, please do not accuse other editors of operation sock puppets as you did in the above post. —[[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 21:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::Neighborhoods.[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/12/AR2008021202619.html][http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/831647.html][http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3484408,00.html] --[[User:GHcool|GHcool]] ([[User talk:GHcool|talk]]) 22:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC) |
::::::Neighborhoods.[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/12/AR2008021202619.html][http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/831647.html][http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3484408,00.html] --[[User:GHcool|GHcool]] ([[User talk:GHcool|talk]]) 22:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC) |
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==== The dishonest nature of the term "neighborhood" ==== |
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Firstly, from a source which is about as middle-of-the-road mainstream neutral as you can get: |
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[http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ifs/hi/newsid_6040000/newsid_6044000/6044090.stm Israel and the Palestinians: Key terms] |
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''' The BBC Governors' independent panel report on the impartiality of BBC coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict recommended that the BBC should make public an abbreviated version of its journalists' guide to facts and terminology.''' |
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[...] |
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'''OCCUPIED TERRITORIES/OCCUPATION''' |
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The general phrase "occupied territories" refers to '''East Jerusalem''', the West Bank and strictly speaking the Golan Heights. However, it is not usually understood to refer to the Golan Heights (unless it is in a story specifically on the 1967 war or Syrian-Israeli relations). |
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It is advisable to avoid trying to find another formula, although the phrase "occupied West Bank" can also be used. |
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Under international law, Israel is still the occupying power in Gaza, although it no longer has a permanent military presence there. See that section for our use of language. |
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Try not to confuse the phrase "occupied territories" with '''Palestinian Land''' or '''Palestinian Territories'''. (See those sections for the reasons why.) |
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The Israeli government's preferred phrase to describe the West Bank and Gaza Strip is "'''disputed territories'''" and it is reasonable to use this when it is clear that we are referring to or explaining its position. |
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[...] |
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'''SETTLEMENTS''' |
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Settlements are residential areas built by Israelis in the '''occupied territories'''. They are illegal under international law: this is the position of the UN Security Council and the UK government among others - although Israel rejects this. |
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When writing a story about settlements we can aim, where relevant, to include context to the effect that "all settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this". |
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:(''emphasis as in original'') |
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This is an impeccable reliable source showing that it is fine to refer to settlements, including those in East Jerusalem, as such. In fact the whole BBC journalists' guide would be an excellent starting point for establishing a set of neutral terms for Wikipedia to use. |
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Seccondly, we should not be seduced into pretending that "neighborhood" is a nice, friendly-sounding neutral term that Wikipedia should use in its neutral voice. It is a [[weasel word]], dishonestly used in order to cover up and whitewash the illegal nature of the settlements. Whenever it is used in the context of the settlements, it should be made clear that it is a partisan term preferred by the settlers and their suporters. |
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--[[User:NSH001|NSH001]] ([[User talk:NSH001|talk]]) 10:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC) |
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==Dispute resolution process== |
==Dispute resolution process== |
Revision as of 10:58, 30 April 2009
- I created the Neighborhoods of the Ring, Jerusalem. Except for the footnotes and the second paragraph in the Demographics section (section header added), I translated it word-for-word from שכונות הטבעת. Perhaps the participants would wish to give their opinions about this more central article, to avoid fragmentation. (comment in the Discussion section/s below, please). Thx. El_C 12:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I now also created East Talpiot (the only one of the Ring neighborhoods without an article); it's just a very basic stub, but I would like to get opinions on the structure of its lead, as a possible compromise for at least the five Ring neighborhoods. Specifically, the: is a Jewish neighborhood in south-east Jerusalem that was founded in 1973 as part of the Neighborhoods of the Ring Israeli settlement effort. (comment in the Discussion section/s below, please). Thx. El_C 06:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Discussion
Refactored from AE
Jewish Neighborhoods versus Israeli Settlements of Jerusalem
It should be stated that Palastinians, and those who support their political agenda, are inclined to name every Jewish town, village or neighbourhood in Israel as a " Jewish settelment". This comes from a political agenda, that sees the state of Israel and the Israeli and Jewish right to a political self deffinition, as illegitimate. This view, which gained popularity among Palastinien and Arab politics in the last two decades, wishes to see the whole Middle east as a pure muslim region, and defies the existence of any non Muslim sovereign entity. These views are very common in the Muslim world, and are no longer exlusive to a fanatic few. This agenda was one of the main factors that incited the palastinien recent "Inttifada", and still today inflames the Muslim and Arab struggle against Israel (which Arab politicians and Muslim activists call "The Zionist state").
For excessive reverts on related articles (Pisgat Ze'ev, Gilo, Ramot, Har Homa, Neve Yaakov), Colourinthemeaning (talk · contribs), ILike2BeAnonymous (talk · contribs), Robertert (talk · contribs), Gilabrand (talk · contribs), and possibly other users upon examination (needless to say, anyone else reverting on this set of articles, is at risk of being added), are, for the next month, placed on a one-(talk page obligatory)-rr on any Jerusalem-related entry. We are not going to have this multiple-entry revert war go on, indefinitely. I gotta step out now, but I will give this formula further thought later. Comment below, but please keep them brief. Long winded debate will be aggressively redacted. Many thanks. El_C 23:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, please do take action against User:Colourinthemeaing, who went ahead and did a blanket revert well after you sent this message. In fact, this person should be blocked from Wikipedia altogether for the disruptive and aggressive nature of his "editing," which is to go from article to article and insert his personal views, and promptly set off an argument with people who have long contributed to the page before he parachuted out of nowhere and decided that he is God's gift to Wikipedia (if not mankind).--Gilabrand (talk) 16:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
1)Fairness: Colourinthemeaning has violated the 3 revert policy 3 times on Gilo after unsuccessfully trying to block another user, resulting in two protections to his new version while I've let his changes to the original version stand a number of times while continuing the discussion. ILike2BeAnonymous hasn't joined the conversation at all. Colour also namecalls (vandal, nationalist) and as I showed below contradicts his sources. Treating us all the same is not fair.
2)Discussion: The summary above (Jewish Neighborhoods versus Israeli Settlements of Jerusalem) is not correct. I restored the original version of the pages that said these places are neighborhoods that are widely considered Israeli settlements, while Colourinthemeaning is arguing that not only do many people say that these places are Israeli settlements, but that the same people say they "aren't" neighbourhoods.
3)Sources: His own sources Globalsecurity and Peace Now[[1]][[2]], contradict him and all refer to them as neighborhoods, as does even Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat[[3]]. Erekat and Peace Now believe the neighborhoods are also settlements while Globalsecurity mentions that their status is disputed. No one says they are independent cities or towns instead of neighborhoods.
I wish someone could put in some time to read through all this. I know that it isn't the most simple dispute but it is straightforward. Most of the discussion is here --Robertert (talk) 10:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- The Settlement side is urged to provide reliable sources that demonstrate usage of the word "settlements" with respect to these neighborhood as the predominant term. Please be specific, citing entire passages, when needed. El_C 07:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- My solution is my version of the page that Mr. Color keeps blanket reverting. It makes sufficient mention of both terms. I have nothing further to say on the matter except that I will not let agenda-pushers write history and disseminate misleading information on Wikipedia.--Gilabrand (talk) 13:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- And we're off on a friendly note! Links? El_C 13:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- My solution is my version of the page that Mr. Color keeps blanket reverting. It makes sufficient mention of both terms. I have nothing further to say on the matter except that I will not let agenda-pushers write history and disseminate misleading information on Wikipedia.--Gilabrand (talk) 13:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I am honestly insulted that you think i am an agenda-pusher, when I have no agenda to push except that of fairness, NPOV and the general enhancement of wikipedia as an encylopedia based on facts. My reverts were made because of excessive reverts made by Gilabrand, Robertert and annonymous IPs which severly degraded the content and white-washed the facts on the page on Gilo, as well as others. One such example was replacing the header 'Shooting Incident' with the incredibly loaded term 'Palestinian Violence.' Further, a long list of problems I had with the articles, including removed content were ignored. Please see Talk:Gilo.
- Now, the articles you cite Robertert, which you claim contradict me do nothing of the sort. The article from Global Security in fact calls them 'disputed neighborhoods.' I linked the article because you cant seem to understand that they are disputed. The other article from Peace Now as the one you linked from JPost, refers to Gilo and Ramot as BOTH settlements and neighborhoods. I linked this article because you seem to think that the neighborhood term is more legitimate, and were as such removing the term settlement from the first sentence, as well as minimising the viewpoint that it is such, and couldn't seem to agree that it could be both.
- The very large International Consensus that these places are settlements in all reality should be the leading and exclusive term while noting the position of the Israeli Government, who is the only government in the world to hold the position that these places are not settlements. Otherwise, this would be giving undue weight to one, very miniminally held perspective. Here are just a few sources [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]. However, in attempting to come to a consensus on these articles, i attempted to lead with both terms, however, this was apparantly disliked and quickly censored, replaced instead with simply the position of the Israeli Government. This is a really ridiculous fight, I am not attempting to write history, i am simply trying to include it, and both sides of it. They have only attempted to remove and/or minimise the side of the international community while leaving the viewpoint of the Israeli Government. This is just not Wiki. I really wish Gilabrand and Robertert could accept that. As Robertert himself in Talk:Gilo admitted, both the term neighborhood and the term settlement are ultimately decided by Governments. Both are political terms, and it just so happens in this case, the only government in the world that views Gilo and these other establishments as neighborhoods is the Israeli Government. Further, it is my opinion that the term 'neighborhood,' is in this case being used as the anti-thesis for settlement, to imply a nice friendly place that has a legitimate legal founding, when in fact that founding is in question. But I have tried to compramise, and be fair to both viewpoints, each attempt has been reverted.
- Ultimately, I think the argument seems to be about their view that the term settlement is disputed. Yes, i will admit it is disputed, but it is only disputed by the Israeli Government. Yet from their reverts and edits, it seems they think this viewpoint is not of merit enough to be included, especially in the leading sentence or even paragraph. Yet, somehow, the viewpoint that it is a neighborhood, which is held only by the Israeli Government [and disputed by the rest of the world] is not only included and reinforced throughout, but is the leading descriptive term in the opening sentence of this article. This ultimately leads to incredibly nationalist pages which I think are a disgrace to wikipedia generally and make their version the definitive Wrong Version. As I stated in the Talk Gilo page, I think the only solution is to call a spade a spade, not because it isn't a shovel, but because most people call it a spade - while noting the position that it is a shovel. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 14:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting that when someone dared to describe an Arab "neighborhood" as an Arab "village," Mr. Color promptly went bananas and turned it into "town," claiming that the word "village" was a deliberate put-down against the Arabs. A spade is a spade? I think your colors are showing.--Gilabrand (talk) 15:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- I did not say it was a put-down, i said that it seemed to be worded as if to make the arab establishments seem less developed and more primitive in comparison to nearby Israeli establishements, especially when plenty of other sources could be found describing it as a town. I certainly hope my colors are showing, because I have nothing to hide. Do you actually have anything to say in defense of the arguments we are discussing here? Colourinthemeaning (talk) 15:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting that when someone dared to describe an Arab "neighborhood" as an Arab "village," Mr. Color promptly went bananas and turned it into "town," claiming that the word "village" was a deliberate put-down against the Arabs. A spade is a spade? I think your colors are showing.--Gilabrand (talk) 15:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- It is clearly your problem, then, and I hope everyone is paying attention. Mr. Color has all kinds of associations with words that are not necessarily connected to reality. No Arab on this site has any problem with the word village. It is a direct translation of the Arabic "kafr." It does not imply anything primtive - that is your POV. The bottom line is that the chaos being introducing here by someone who goes from article to article with the express purpose of stirring up controversy, has everything to do with what certain words (neighborhood, settlement, town, village) conjure up in HIS MIND. --Gilabrand (talk) 16:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- So why did you remove the term Israeli Settlement from so many articles if it is only my problem? You clearly have a problem with the term, or we wouldn't be here. Further, I have hardly been stirring up trouble, I have been undoing the one sided and nationalistic revisions you have been making, and I have been working on the Gilo page for a long time now - so I did not take kindly to many additions I had made been completely removed by you or Robertert, or the additions of others, especially when it was done so with no respect for NPOV policies. So, it would seem that the bottom line is that the chaos that started when you and Robertert decided to come a long and stir up controversy, push a nationalistic point of view and minimise and censor the view of the international community, because some people seem to have a problem with certain words (like Settlement) conjure up in THEIR MINDS. And all of this after an admin had come along and decided the version I had written was the most accurate and NPOV after a previous and earlier disagreement. Now, I will admit that my edit regarding the Arab villages might not have been the most constructive, but I edited one word and entered discussion, a discussion you apparantly avoided Gilabrand. I still stand by my edit considering every source I could find at the time referred to the place as a town, and not a village. You were free to enter the discussion or send me a message, but I only made that edit once and this is a complete side issue to the one at hand Gilabrand. My edits didnt remove important information and replace it with a page that read just like the article from the Israeli Ministiry of Foreign Affairs you cited. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 16:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Gilabrand, Robertert, can you tell me what is wrong with leading with both the terms 'Israeli Settlement and neighborhood of East Jerusalem'? Both are disputed terms, the latter more so as you have admitted to me, so I am really curious as to what the problem could be, and how replacing that with simply 'neighborhood of Jerusalem' can at all be considered an improvement in general encyclopedic and factual terms or in terms of taking a NPOV? Colourinthemeaning (talk) 16:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- Robertert, I just noticed your discussion on El_C's talk page, and I am disheartened that you would misrepresent my arguments like that. Your continued and unqualified use of the term annexed highlights your misunderstanding of both my arguments and the situation. There is a lot more to annexation than simply what the annexer says. Further, as I have said time and time again now, being a settlement doesn't stop it being a city, but being a city does not stop it being a settlement either, and as I have stated in the talk page on Gilo, according to the UN they are settlements and not neighborhoods because the border changes made by Israel to municipal Jerusalem, which make Gilo and these other establishments a part of municipal Jerusalem (and hence 'neighborhoods of Jerusalem') according to the Israeli Government, are not recognised, are disputed and seen as Null and Void according to Resolution 476. [13]. How can they be neighborhoods of Jerusalem if no other Government in the world recogognises them as such, or recognises the border changes which make them a part of municipal Jerusalem? Colourinthemeaning (talk) 17:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
If you call it a settlement, why do you locate it in Israel's expanded East Jerusalem? It seems to be a contradiction in terms. This settlement is located in the West Bank according to the UN, as they neither recognise Israel presence in East Jerusalem or Jerusalem's expanded borders which include Pisgat Zeev. It is therefore only located in East Jerusalem according to Israel, who do not view it as a settlement. I feel that it should be described as a neighbourhood in the first line as that is what it is in reality. Live there and you receive a council tax bill from the Jerusalem Municipally whether you like it or not. The international view can also be mentioned. As to the location, Northern Jerusalem is more accurate and is described as such in the Peace Now link provided. Chesdovi (talk) 14:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Theres a problem in your logic though. You say its only in East Jerusalem according to Israel, which is correct - to the rest of the world it is located in the West Bank as these are not built in areas of traditioal Jerusalem, but the Jersualem that was expaned by Israel (and rejected by the International Community. So if these places are only in East Jerusalem according to Israel, then surely they are only neighborhoods according to Israel too? And you want to lead with that term? Normally, that might be fine, but the difference here is that most other neighborhoods in the world are recognised as such by other governments. When this is disputed so heavly, then leading with such a nationalist viewpoint is simply against wikipedia policy. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 17:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that a community that was purchased and inhabited by Jews before 1948 (Neve Yaakov) should not be labelled "captured by Israel" in 1967. If you must include this type of reference, it seems to me that the correct term would be "recaptured".Howie63 (talk) 04:21, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- I can see where you are coming from here -- but these territories were also 'let go,' so to speak, by Israel in 1949. I also feel that 'recaptured' gives the wrong impression as to the validity and recognition of the recapture. I certainly agree that the fact it was inhabited before 1948 should be well highlighted. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 07:39, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
- "but these territories were also 'let go,' so to speak, by Israel in 1949." seems to me an inappropriate characterization of a result of a defensive war. Are you saying that 'captured by Israel in 1967' gives a correct impression of invalidity and non-recognition? Would you describe Paris as having been 'captured' by the Allies? Perhaps we should describe Neve Yaakov as having been 'liberated' by Israel in 1967. Howie63 (talk) 23:03, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
- Would you also say tibet was liberated by China? Or France by Germany? I do think that 'captured by Israel...' gives the correct impression of non-recognition, and of the facts. The internationally recognised borders of Israel are those of the 1949 armistice lines... thus any attempt to gain territory or control outside the internationally recognised borders of Israel would be correctly described as having been 'Captured by Israel in 1949'. Especially given that it was never captured in the first place, especially in a military sense, but rather initially established under the mandate of palestine. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 08:58, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
- "but these territories were also 'let go,' so to speak, by Israel in 1949." seems to me an inappropriate characterization of a result of a defensive war. Are you saying that 'captured by Israel in 1967' gives a correct impression of invalidity and non-recognition? Would you describe Paris as having been 'captured' by the Allies? Perhaps we should describe Neve Yaakov as having been 'liberated' by Israel in 1967. Howie63 (talk) 23:03, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
The United States has often said that East Jerusalem is not the west bank, and the U.S congress has wanted to move its embassy to east Jerusalem. We have sources saying that CNN and other networks have said that they don't want to refer to the places as settlements. Obviously it's disputed whether or not they're settlements or not. Articles must present the NPOV version. Therefore , you can't say "they are settlements". You can explain it though in detail. And it does, although in a POV sense still because it's very much disputed, it's not an international opinion that they're settlements. So unless you want to balance that too, there's no dispute here. Obviously they are neighborhoods which is not disputed by anyone except you... stop your disruptions in the future. 216.165.3.215 (talk) 19:11, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- But when has the US said that East Jerusalem is part of Israel, or that 'Greater Jerusalem' is recognised for that matter? You clearly lack an understanding of the internationally recognised facts here. They are absolutely considered to be settlements both by the international community and under international law. Their status as neighborhoods is disputed by every government in the world that has refused to accept the annexation of 'greater jerusalem' in to Jerusalem as a whole, and by every government of the world that refuses to accept East Jerusalem as a part of Israel. What government has fully recognised Israels claim to these territories? Colourinthemeaning (talk) 14:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm still waiting for sources that dispute that the neighborhoods are neighborhoods. there are sources in the articles of israel u.s and news media (explicit!) that dispute they're settlements. please provide ONE source that says that they're not neighborhoods, one RS. if you don't, cease your disruptions... 216.165.95.70 (talk) 10:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Even CNN and New York Times don't call them settlements which is clearly POV [14]. I don't know why you insist to say "settlements and neigborhoods". Neighborhoods is not disputed. Settlements are discussed in later sentences. nobody is saying that there aren't any people who claim that they're settlements. that claim is known. that the claim is that it's against international law (because groups in the u.n full of arab/mulsim states say so, or people against israel say so) is also known. the claim is known.the claim is pov. the claim is detailed in the lead. even in this anti settlement opinion piece (by a left wing israeli), she says "For news outlets to report on Gilo simply as a Jerusalem neighborhood under attack, without explaining its legal status, confuses rather than clarifies the issues involved..." - so first it says that neighborhood is what news outlets do, and second it doesn't dispute that these are neighborhoods. she just want their status clarified. and the articles do that. so what else do you want? hope this ends it!!! 216.165.95.70 (talk) 10:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- There is a very strong argument not to refer to Israeli built up areas within the UN's corpus separatum as "settlements". This is because the area encompassing Jerusalem was not awarded internationally to either Israel or an Arab state. And since the legal status of Jerusalem is yet to be defined, "neighbourhood" is better for both Israeli neighbourhoods and areas built up by Arabs in eastern Jerusalem. For instance, why is Wadi al-Joz not called a settlement? Chesdovi (talk) 21:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Even CNN and New York Times don't call them settlements which is clearly POV [14]. I don't know why you insist to say "settlements and neigborhoods". Neighborhoods is not disputed. Settlements are discussed in later sentences. nobody is saying that there aren't any people who claim that they're settlements. that claim is known. that the claim is that it's against international law (because groups in the u.n full of arab/mulsim states say so, or people against israel say so) is also known. the claim is known.the claim is pov. the claim is detailed in the lead. even in this anti settlement opinion piece (by a left wing israeli), she says "For news outlets to report on Gilo simply as a Jerusalem neighborhood under attack, without explaining its legal status, confuses rather than clarifies the issues involved..." - so first it says that neighborhood is what news outlets do, and second it doesn't dispute that these are neighborhoods. she just want their status clarified. and the articles do that. so what else do you want? hope this ends it!!! 216.165.95.70 (talk) 10:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm still waiting for sources that dispute that the neighborhoods are neighborhoods. there are sources in the articles of israel u.s and news media (explicit!) that dispute they're settlements. please provide ONE source that says that they're not neighborhoods, one RS. if you don't, cease your disruptions... 216.165.95.70 (talk) 10:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- You both obviously, if you are in fact two different people -- lack an understanding of the international perspectives of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Random IP: I have provided plenty of sources previously to which other people 'on your side,' so to speak had no answer for so i do not feel the need to supply them all again until you can at least read up and provide me with a good reason for each of the sources inapplicability on wiki. Chesdovi -- Wadi al-Joz is not considered to be a settlement because it was established and has existed in accordance with international law. That is why it is internationally recognised. None of these 'Ring Neighborhoods' have been internationally recognised as a part of Jerusalem, let alone as having been legally founded. How can they be neighborhoods of Jerusalem if no other government in the world recognises them as even being a part of Jerusalem? Beverly Hills is only a neighborhood of Los Anglees because no other government in the world disputes it being such, or has being a part of Los Angeles Colourinthemeaning (talk) 13:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- I am not aware of any body, including Palestinian bodies, that dispute the status of these places as neighborhoods. They merely argue that they are not part of Jerusalem, and add that they consider them to also be settlements. That is, everyone agrees that they are neighborhoods, but not everyone that there are settlements. This means that only the neighborhood designation should be in the lead sentence. Information that they are also considered settlements is notable, and should be given but not in the lead sentence.
- Moreover, please do not accuse other editors of operation sock puppets as you did in the above post. —Ynhockey (Talk) 21:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- Neighborhoods.[15][16][17] --GHcool (talk) 22:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- You both obviously, if you are in fact two different people -- lack an understanding of the international perspectives of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Random IP: I have provided plenty of sources previously to which other people 'on your side,' so to speak had no answer for so i do not feel the need to supply them all again until you can at least read up and provide me with a good reason for each of the sources inapplicability on wiki. Chesdovi -- Wadi al-Joz is not considered to be a settlement because it was established and has existed in accordance with international law. That is why it is internationally recognised. None of these 'Ring Neighborhoods' have been internationally recognised as a part of Jerusalem, let alone as having been legally founded. How can they be neighborhoods of Jerusalem if no other government in the world recognises them as even being a part of Jerusalem? Beverly Hills is only a neighborhood of Los Anglees because no other government in the world disputes it being such, or has being a part of Los Angeles Colourinthemeaning (talk) 13:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
The dishonest nature of the term "neighborhood"
Firstly, from a source which is about as middle-of-the-road mainstream neutral as you can get:
Israel and the Palestinians: Key terms
The BBC Governors' independent panel report on the impartiality of BBC coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict recommended that the BBC should make public an abbreviated version of its journalists' guide to facts and terminology.
[...]
OCCUPIED TERRITORIES/OCCUPATION
The general phrase "occupied territories" refers to East Jerusalem, the West Bank and strictly speaking the Golan Heights. However, it is not usually understood to refer to the Golan Heights (unless it is in a story specifically on the 1967 war or Syrian-Israeli relations).
It is advisable to avoid trying to find another formula, although the phrase "occupied West Bank" can also be used.
Under international law, Israel is still the occupying power in Gaza, although it no longer has a permanent military presence there. See that section for our use of language.
Try not to confuse the phrase "occupied territories" with Palestinian Land or Palestinian Territories. (See those sections for the reasons why.)
The Israeli government's preferred phrase to describe the West Bank and Gaza Strip is "disputed territories" and it is reasonable to use this when it is clear that we are referring to or explaining its position.
[...]
SETTLEMENTS
Settlements are residential areas built by Israelis in the occupied territories. They are illegal under international law: this is the position of the UN Security Council and the UK government among others - although Israel rejects this.
When writing a story about settlements we can aim, where relevant, to include context to the effect that "all settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this".
- (emphasis as in original)
This is an impeccable reliable source showing that it is fine to refer to settlements, including those in East Jerusalem, as such. In fact the whole BBC journalists' guide would be an excellent starting point for establishing a set of neutral terms for Wikipedia to use.
Seccondly, we should not be seduced into pretending that "neighborhood" is a nice, friendly-sounding neutral term that Wikipedia should use in its neutral voice. It is a weasel word, dishonestly used in order to cover up and whitewash the illegal nature of the settlements. Whenever it is used in the context of the settlements, it should be made clear that it is a partisan term preferred by the settlers and their suporters.
--NSH001 (talk) 10:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Dispute resolution process
Greetings, appropriately enough, I received a note to look over here. I happen to be the moderator at a WikiProject to help quiet Isr-Pales editing disputes. I don't have time myself to moderate this discussion, so let me make some suggestions.
- Would you all please agree to use this page to focus on the content dispute? That is, from this point forward, assume that past problems in user conduct have already been addressed at WP:AE with the 1RR sanction.
- Accordingly, would you all please agree to raise any future user conduct concerns (like reverts, uncivility) on other pages (not here)? For instance, if you feel somebody has been uncivil, could you politely mention this on their user Talk, quote the problematic text, and ask them to kindly strikeout (or remove) their text? The next stages might be WP:WQA then WP:AN/I or WP:AE. In this manner, this page -- a content discussion -- won't be cluttered with back and forth complaints about user conduct. Ok?
- You might want to consider taking this dispute to WP:MEDCAB and/or an WP:RFC. If so -- well, even if not... then,
- Probably a good constructive next step is to try to define the content dispute itself. I don't mean tell us the history of the reverts and user conduct. Do you accept the nutshell description above? If not, can you all come to agreement on another, fairly neutral description?
- Once you've agreed on the question, perhaps you could elucidate the WP-policy or other criteria that you would employ to arrive at an answer?
Hope this is helpful. If you feel it's helpful, or not, you're welcome to give me constructive feedback on my Talk page. Pls be concise there. Thanks muchly. HG | Talk 12:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
- Might I suggest at the outset that the question at the top of the page be changed so that it does not use the term "neighbourhoods" (thereby seemingly taking a side right off the bat)? For example, it could read:
Should the post-1967 Jewish localities in Jerusalem be principally titled as "neighborhoods" or "settlements"? What do the reliable sources say? What is the predominant usage?
- Thanks Tiamut. I feel I only really need one source here, UN Resolution 476. I have been told previously that the reason it is a neighborhood is because it is located within municipal Jerusalem. This is disputed in Resolution 476, which denies the changes to the borders of municipal Jerusalem made by the state of Israel, thus disputing that these locations are neighborhoods of Jerusalem (or in fact, a part of Jerusalem at all). So this leaves us with a problem, as both the term 'neighborhood' is disputed by the world, and the term 'settlement' is disputed by Israel. Now of course, I think it is important to mention this dispute, and highlight the arguments behind both. But as I have stated before, when it really comes down to it we have to call a spade a spade, not because it isnt a shovel, but because most people call it a spade. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 17:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- Colourinthemeaning clearly has an emotional obsession. Maybe it's called "neighborhood-itis" Here is the definition of the word according to a non-political source: Neighborhood – An identifiable geographic area of relatively small size; a collection of units and other land uses that provide a relationship between dwellings, school, religious facilities, minor retail and/or other local facilities. [[18]]. Why don't you devote your energies to something positive, Mr. Colour? Time to use your God-given years on earth to engage in productive work.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I think it is you who is showing your emotional obsession Gilabrand. My so-called "god-given" time on earth is being used just as I please - improving articles on wikipedia to ensure they are neutral and that they tell all sides and not just one. Wikipedia however, says that a neighborhood is a 'geographically localised community located within a larger city, town or suburb.' So can you tell me Gilabrand, which larger city, town or suburb these places are located in? Because according to the world outside Israel, these are not legally located within Jerusalem. Which makes them neighborhoods, how? Colourinthemeaning (talk) 04:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
- Colourinthemeaning clearly has an emotional obsession. Maybe it's called "neighborhood-itis" Here is the definition of the word according to a non-political source: Neighborhood – An identifiable geographic area of relatively small size; a collection of units and other land uses that provide a relationship between dwellings, school, religious facilities, minor retail and/or other local facilities. [[18]]. Why don't you devote your energies to something positive, Mr. Colour? Time to use your God-given years on earth to engage in productive work.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Unbelievable. With this edit, you have proven to the world that you are certifiably obsessed. You are an ignorant person. When you are banned from Wikipedia, which will hopefully be soon, we should bring out the champagne. Evidence of the seriousness of your condition can be viewed here:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Umm_Tuba&diff=prev&oldid=209462370
- Well thank you for pointing out my error on that edit Gilabrand, I certainly admit it was an error and have undone it. On the other hand, your emotional obsession seems to be showing again, especially with your certainty I will be banned for having made this mistake. I ask you Gilabrand, have you never made a mistake before? You seem to prefer to just insult your opponents on a personal level and avoid their legitimate questions all together. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 10:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am glad you recognized that it was a mistake, and of course, we all make mistakes, but the fact that you made it at all is the point. It shows that you are actively seeking out articles into which you can inject your POV, the more the merrier. If I attacked you personally, it was because nothing else seems to help in your case. A person who goes from article to article adding political POV without offering sources or attempting any other form of article improvement is bound to be suspect. You have succeeded in getting many people hot around the collar, which is a pity, since we do need people like you who can write well in English and do important editing work.--Gilabrand (talk) 10:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Could I intervene here to ask that we discuss editing content and not editors and their motivations? Thanks. Tiamuttalk 10:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you Tiamut. I think the fact that you think I am inserting my own personal opinion though Gilabrand, highlights your misunderstanding of this situation. It is not my POV i am inserting, but the POV of the international community, which as you know can be attributed to any number of sources.
Your double standards are showing Gilabrand. As you provide no sources for it being a neighborhood, which is an intrinsically political term too, your edit history reveals the double standards of edits you have made. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 12:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you Tiamut. I think the fact that you think I am inserting my own personal opinion though Gilabrand, highlights your misunderstanding of this situation. It is not my POV i am inserting, but the POV of the international community, which as you know can be attributed to any number of sources.
- Could I intervene here to ask that we discuss editing content and not editors and their motivations? Thanks. Tiamuttalk 10:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Unbelievable. With this edit, you have proven to the world that you are certifiably obsessed. You are an ignorant person. When you are banned from Wikipedia, which will hopefully be soon, we should bring out the champagne. Evidence of the seriousness of your condition can be viewed here:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Umm_Tuba&diff=prev&oldid=209462370
- Your welcome Colourinthemeaning, but the advice applies to you as well; indeed, it applies to everyone at Wikipedia and particularly those editing I-P articles. So I suggest you strike "Your double standards are showing Gilabrand" using <s> ... </s> , since it's not necessary to the discussion here and is a comment on an editor. The second half of the sentence can stand on its own. (For some reason, my name and time stamp are not appearing correctly. This was a statement by me, Tiamut at 13:28 on 2 May 2008) Tiamuttalk 14:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing out my mistake Tiamut. I hope I have worded it better as I was not trying to make a remark on the editor themselves, but rather on the content of their edits, so I hope this better reflects that now. My previous comment (above Tiamut's) was edited at the same time as this comment. PS. Your signature seems to be appearing fine for me at least. Colourinthemeaning (talk) 09:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I love these arguments at Wikipedia, because they are living confirmation of Henry Kissinger's quip: "The reason academic discussions are so vicious is that the stakes are so low."
What is obvious to any observer not involved in the mudslinging is that these areas are both neighborhoods and settlements. Reliable sources can be found for calling them either. There are good logical arguments behind both. Each term also encapsulates a mountain of connotations, political views, and insinuations.
For this reason, there can be no resolution to this dispute that will leave both sides satisfied. One option is to diligently eschew the use of either term, and call these places "regions" or "areas" or "sectors". A better solution, one that is totally unacceptable in Wikipedia but which I proposed in my essay User:Ravpapa/The Politicization of Wikipedia is to allow, at least temporarily, two parallel articles as a way toward resolution of the conflict.
But, of course, the preferred course is for the current participants to keep slugging away at each other until thousands of words of argument have been archived. So have at it, and let the spectators enjoy! --Ravpapa (talk) 05:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)