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Carcharoth (talk | contribs) →RFA canvassing: some points |
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::::::Just expressing one's own opinion on one's own user talk page is not considered canvassing. If he had proceeded to post that same opinion on multiple other talk pages, ''that'' would be canvassing. This is very clearly ''not'' canvassing. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<font color="darkgreen">日本穣</font>]]<sup>[[Help:Installing Japanese character sets|?]]</sup> · <small>[[Special:Contributions/Nihonjoe|<font color="blue">投稿</font>]] · [[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]] · [[WP:JA|<font color="maroon">Join WikiProject Japan</font>]]!</small> 05:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC) |
::::::Just expressing one's own opinion on one's own user talk page is not considered canvassing. If he had proceeded to post that same opinion on multiple other talk pages, ''that'' would be canvassing. This is very clearly ''not'' canvassing. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<font color="darkgreen">日本穣</font>]]<sup>[[Help:Installing Japanese character sets|?]]</sup> · <small>[[Special:Contributions/Nihonjoe|<font color="blue">投稿</font>]] · [[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]] · [[WP:JA|<font color="maroon">Join WikiProject Japan</font>]]!</small> 05:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::Well yebut - wasn't this editor only recently the subject of an ArbCase clarification which revolved around their use of their (well-watched) user-talk page to advocate certain edits by others, or suspicion thereof? Nothing in the recent ArbCom findings applies here, but it's a worrisome trend. [[User:Franamax|Franamax]] ([[User talk:Franamax|talk]]) 09:01, 3 November 2010 (UTC) |
:::::::Well yebut - wasn't this editor only recently the subject of an ArbCase clarification which revolved around their use of their (well-watched) user-talk page to advocate certain edits by others, or suspicion thereof? Nothing in the recent ArbCom findings applies here, but it's a worrisome trend. [[User:Franamax|Franamax]] ([[User talk:Franamax|talk]]) 09:01, 3 November 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::*I agree. My opinion is that this is a clear case of canvassing for people to go and "say no" on that RFA (which has now closed). I appreciate that the canvassing came late in the day (only a few hours and a few comments before the close), so it had no appreciable effect, but it was still, in my opinion, an attempt to affect the result of the RFA. One way to find out would be to ask the editor in question ''why'' he made that edit and ''who'' he was addressing that edit to. There is also a clear difference between drawing people's attention to an RFA (sometimes acceptable depending on the context), and explicitly asking people to vote one way or the other (not acceptable, in my view). |
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::::::::*If you look at the history of the user talk page in question, there are a series of edits that are clearly addressed to a watching audience - which I see as a misuse of a user talk page. User talk pages should be for messages to the person whose page it is, or for short discussions that don't really fit anywhere else. User talk pages should ''not'' be a venue for centralised discussions best held elsewhere, and they should ''not'' be a place to make announcements to a group of users you know are watching your talk page. Finally, I disagree that there are not instances of opposes made to the RFA that likely appeared after the canvassing notice appeared on the user talk page. What I would do is look at the opposes that appeared ''after'' the notice was posted, and see whether those people normally vote in RFAs or not. |
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::::::::*To give another example of how a notice elsewhere draws people to a discussion: xeno notified the user of this discussion (thanks for doing that, xeno), and that could have prompted subsequent edits here by people watching that user talk page. That's nothing new, but the point I'm making here is that notices left on user talk pages, even your ''own'' user talk page, can act as notification to more people than just the user whose talk page it is. I think that [[WP:CANVASS]] should take that into account, if it doesn't already, but that would be a discussion for the talk page over there. |
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::::::::*As far as this matter goes, I would hope that the following happens: (1) Someone ''asks'' the editor why they made that edit and ''who'' they were talking to; (2) The distinction is made clear that the edit was not just drawing attention to the RFA, but was explicitly advocating opposition; (3) That bureaucrats say what they will do in future if a notice of this nature (or similar) appears elsewhere on-wiki at the ''start'' of an RFA (or point to previous discussions on this sort of thing). |
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::::::::Apologies for the length of this post, but I wanted to make my points clear. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 09:27, 3 November 2010
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RFA closures and scheduled ending time
- Moved from WT:RFA
I would like to discuss the nature of end times for voting. In general, bureaucrats have taken some liberty with the end times, often closing the matter a little early or late, especially when the consensus is clear. It seems to me that it may be best to wait until the end time for the nomination has actually passed before promoting or removing a nomination. Given the number of bureaucrats who follow RFA, the likelihood that a new admin will have to wait more than a day or two for promotion seems low. --Monterey Bay (talk) 02:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- That's currently what happens at the moment; crats typically only close RfAs after !voting time has passed. -FASTILY (TALK) 18:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- Looking at 46 successful nominations over the last six months (May to Oct),
tennine were closed or placed on hold before the scheduled ending time. (+2h +2m +11m +25m -44m -32m +1h +1h +12m +2h +5m +54m -49m-2h24+2h24 -4m +2h +24m +1m +0m -12m -12m +44m +4m -6m +1h +5m +31m +11m +4h +3h +15m +2h +26m +4h +1h +0m -1h15 +6h +0m +5h +1h30m -5h07 +0m -2m +6h) –xenotalk 18:56, 31 October 2010 (UTC)- I don't think half an hour makes much difference, but I don't think it would be best practice to close as successful with much more than that left on the clock. It doesn't look like a big issue, though—the majority seem to be closed a little while after their scheduled end time. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- As a guilty party for some of those, I will say that it's all common sense. Many of the 30m+ ones above are usually 95% support or better, where the chance of failure is getting very close to 0. Think of it as an early present. Is 30m really worth waiting for, when the consensus is clear? (X! · talk) · @980 · 22:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think half an hour makes much difference, but I don't think it would be best practice to close as successful with much more than that left on the clock. It doesn't look like a big issue, though—the majority seem to be closed a little while after their scheduled end time. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- An exception is clearly this close by User:Nihonjoe as sucessful in the discretionary zone at 78.6 percent nearly 2.5 hours before time was up. This obviously should not happen. Polargeo 2 (talk) 16:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps I'm reading things wrong, but that one appears to have been closed 2.5 hours late. That diff clearly shows the close time to be 10:01 am, and it was closed at 12:25 pm. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 06:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry I was going by xeno's timings. Should always learn to check these things. Polargeo 2 (talk) 10:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps I'm reading things wrong, but that one appears to have been closed 2.5 hours late. That diff clearly shows the close time to be 10:01 am, and it was closed at 12:25 pm. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 06:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- An exception is clearly this close by User:Nihonjoe as sucessful in the discretionary zone at 78.6 percent nearly 2.5 hours before time was up. This obviously should not happen. Polargeo 2 (talk) 16:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Idly wondering
Wifione ....... Leave a message 03:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Resolved – There seems to be a consensus that this question can and will be addressed if and when it arises. Hans Adler 22:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC)Whether the weather of Rlevse's departure would be classified as cloudy. --MZMcBride (talk) 07:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
I think people have kicked Rlevse while he's down enough; I wish they'd stop. <--what Roux said, in handy template form. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
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RFA canvassing
Does this count as canvassing for a particular result in an RFA? I supported the RFA (which is due to close in a few hours), so I don't think it would be appropriate for me to do anything other than report that edit here for consideration. Carcharoth (talk) 00:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- As the talk page has 473 watchers, and the user full well knows this, I'd say "yes". --Mkativerata (talk) 00:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Don't agree. It's his talk page. Arbcom elections have similar campaigns and I don't see the difference here. Besides, it could end up positive for the candidate. AD 00:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Clear canvassing. Wifione ....... Leave a message 03:11, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- It is, but I didn't see evidence that it had a major effect on the course of the RFA. A number of opposes and supports were added after the incident with no apparent connection to it. bibliomaniac15 04:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Just so I'm clear: are users forbidden to express their opinion on an RfA on their own usertalk page? Are they permitted to voice their opinions so long as their userpage has < n watchers, where n =... what, exactly? MastCell Talk 05:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Just expressing one's own opinion on one's own user talk page is not considered canvassing. If he had proceeded to post that same opinion on multiple other talk pages, that would be canvassing. This is very clearly not canvassing. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Well yebut - wasn't this editor only recently the subject of an ArbCase clarification which revolved around their use of their (well-watched) user-talk page to advocate certain edits by others, or suspicion thereof? Nothing in the recent ArbCom findings applies here, but it's a worrisome trend. Franamax (talk) 09:01, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. My opinion is that this is a clear case of canvassing for people to go and "say no" on that RFA (which has now closed). I appreciate that the canvassing came late in the day (only a few hours and a few comments before the close), so it had no appreciable effect, but it was still, in my opinion, an attempt to affect the result of the RFA. One way to find out would be to ask the editor in question why he made that edit and who he was addressing that edit to. There is also a clear difference between drawing people's attention to an RFA (sometimes acceptable depending on the context), and explicitly asking people to vote one way or the other (not acceptable, in my view).
- If you look at the history of the user talk page in question, there are a series of edits that are clearly addressed to a watching audience - which I see as a misuse of a user talk page. User talk pages should be for messages to the person whose page it is, or for short discussions that don't really fit anywhere else. User talk pages should not be a venue for centralised discussions best held elsewhere, and they should not be a place to make announcements to a group of users you know are watching your talk page. Finally, I disagree that there are not instances of opposes made to the RFA that likely appeared after the canvassing notice appeared on the user talk page. What I would do is look at the opposes that appeared after the notice was posted, and see whether those people normally vote in RFAs or not.
- To give another example of how a notice elsewhere draws people to a discussion: xeno notified the user of this discussion (thanks for doing that, xeno), and that could have prompted subsequent edits here by people watching that user talk page. That's nothing new, but the point I'm making here is that notices left on user talk pages, even your own user talk page, can act as notification to more people than just the user whose talk page it is. I think that WP:CANVASS should take that into account, if it doesn't already, but that would be a discussion for the talk page over there.
- As far as this matter goes, I would hope that the following happens: (1) Someone asks the editor why they made that edit and who they were talking to; (2) The distinction is made clear that the edit was not just drawing attention to the RFA, but was explicitly advocating opposition; (3) That bureaucrats say what they will do in future if a notice of this nature (or similar) appears elsewhere on-wiki at the start of an RFA (or point to previous discussions on this sort of thing).
- Apologies for the length of this post, but I wanted to make my points clear. Carcharoth (talk) 09:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Well yebut - wasn't this editor only recently the subject of an ArbCase clarification which revolved around their use of their (well-watched) user-talk page to advocate certain edits by others, or suspicion thereof? Nothing in the recent ArbCom findings applies here, but it's a worrisome trend. Franamax (talk) 09:01, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Just expressing one's own opinion on one's own user talk page is not considered canvassing. If he had proceeded to post that same opinion on multiple other talk pages, that would be canvassing. This is very clearly not canvassing. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Just so I'm clear: are users forbidden to express their opinion on an RfA on their own usertalk page? Are they permitted to voice their opinions so long as their userpage has < n watchers, where n =... what, exactly? MastCell Talk 05:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- It is, but I didn't see evidence that it had a major effect on the course of the RFA. A number of opposes and supports were added after the incident with no apparent connection to it. bibliomaniac15 04:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Clear canvassing. Wifione ....... Leave a message 03:11, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Don't agree. It's his talk page. Arbcom elections have similar campaigns and I don't see the difference here. Besides, it could end up positive for the candidate. AD 00:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)