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Following on from the various conferences and workshops taking place this week, a casual Sydney meetup will occur from 17:30 at The Royal Hotel in Darlington on the evening of the 15th June, all the current members of Wikimedia Australia committee will be there. see [[Wikipedia:Meetup/Sydney/June 2019]] for details everyone is welcome. [[User:Gnangarra|Gnan]][[User_talk:Gnangarra|garra]] 04:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
Following on from the various conferences and workshops taking place this week, a casual Sydney meetup will occur from 17:30 at The Royal Hotel in Darlington on the evening of the 15th June, all the current members of Wikimedia Australia committee will be there. see [[Wikipedia:Meetup/Sydney/June 2019]] for details everyone is welcome. [[User:Gnangarra|Gnan]][[User_talk:Gnangarra|garra]] 04:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC) |
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== RfC of possible interest == |
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A [[Talk:Bill_Shorten#RfC:_Rape_allegation|request for comment]] regarding a rape allegation against Bill Shorten, an Australian politician, may be of interest to editors in this WikiProject. – [[User:Teratix|Tera]]'''[[User talk:Teratix|tix]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Teratix|₵]] 02:30, 21 June 2019 (UTC) |
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Post-election
Should there be a change in government following today's election, there will be the usual onslaught of well-meaning but uninformed editors who want to immediately update Wikipedia to reflect a new government or PM, despite any such change requiring swearing-in by the GG. Should there be a new PM evident, he will be prime minister-designate, not prime minister-elect, until sworn-in. WWGB (talk) 06:23, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
- People are already updating electoral article infoboxes on the basis of media “looks likely to win” reports We do not a single seat fully counted, yet alone declared by the electoral authorities. I’m rather concerned by this behaviour. We are WP:NOTNEWS. I guess it’s ok to write that someone is in the lead in the vote, citing media, but not to declare a winner.Kerry (talk) 11:23, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
- We've always added results when the result is no longer in doubt - PM is from the date they're sworn in, but MP's terms start from the date of election. It's too early to be doing it just yet beyond the extremely obvious results (i.e. Steggall) but once tonight's counting is finished we can comfortably call all but a few lineball seats. Waiting for declarations is a pointless waste of time and invariably leads to out-of-date articles because the day after the election is when the editorial eyes are actually on these articles to do the necessarily million-and-one post-election updates. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:07, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
- MPs' terms start from the date of election - yes, but working back from an officially declared result. The Abbott article was being updated from even before results were in from all polling stations in the constituency, based on his own decision to concede - which, as a general rule, could be withdrawn (didn't Al Gore do that?). WP, as an encyclopedia, can report that he conceded, but he does not cease to be the member until a new member is declared. Wikiain (talk) 21:41, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
- Here is how votes are counted in an Australian federal election. Even for a single constituency ("division"), the result is never complete on election day. Wikiain (talk) 22:56, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
- If the term starts from election day, and the result in that seat is in absolutely no doubt, there is no point delaying the work of updating articles so that editors have to go back and update hundreds of articles weeks later when everyone's moved on. That is a great way to get articles that wind up being years out of date because they got forgotten about after the election fuss had died down. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:12, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
the result in that seat is in absolutely no doubt
is a fallacy. Nothing is absolute. There is absolutely no doubt that Heather Hill was elected to the Senate by the people of Queensland at the 1998 election. I saw the results and I even congratulated her personally but her election was overturned by the courts. Wikipedia is not working to a deadline so articles don't have to be updated the instant that you think there is a result. If articles are years out of date, so be it. Look at the number of articles that still haven't been updated since the 2016 census. There are still 2,211 articles using {{Census 2011 AUS}} but it hasn't destroyed the world. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:47, 19 May 2019 (UTC)- That is a nonsensical analogy because Hill was declared elected and then later overturned by the High Court due to s 44: if we were following that logic, we'd just never update articles for elected MPs until their retirement in case someone was invalidated due to s 44 later in their career. Let's not do that and do what we've done for nearly twenty years without major issue. I'd also note that none of the people who've responded apart from Kerry are users who ever actually do any of the work of updating articles post-election, but obviously it's fun for some people to throw their weight around. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:31, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
- Whether or not you like the anology, it's absolutely true that nothing is absolute and Wikipedia is not working to a deadline, the latter being my main point. You don't need to rush off immediately to update articles. It's not going to hurt if you wait a while, or even if you never do it. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:08, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
- It's equally true that there's no harm in updating things as they happen rather than three years after the fact, with some obvious benefits. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:23, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
- If Heather Hill was elected in the House of Representatives rather than the Senate, she would actually have been a sitting member until she was disqualified, and so the election day reporting would have been just as correct. The only thing to note here is that the senators elected yesterday don't take their seats until July, except those from the territories. If the ABC is saying that a certain person has been elected or defeated, we might as well update Wikipedia to reflect that. I would only agree that the margins and swings shouldn't be reported here until the declarations. I agree that it's not necessary to update articles the day after the election like I have done but saying that it's okay if the articles are years out of date is quite bizarre. Onetwothreeip (talk) 05:34, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
- Whether or not you like the anology, it's absolutely true that nothing is absolute and Wikipedia is not working to a deadline, the latter being my main point. You don't need to rush off immediately to update articles. It's not going to hurt if you wait a while, or even if you never do it. --AussieLegend (✉) 05:08, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
- That is a nonsensical analogy because Hill was declared elected and then later overturned by the High Court due to s 44: if we were following that logic, we'd just never update articles for elected MPs until their retirement in case someone was invalidated due to s 44 later in their career. Let's not do that and do what we've done for nearly twenty years without major issue. I'd also note that none of the people who've responded apart from Kerry are users who ever actually do any of the work of updating articles post-election, but obviously it's fun for some people to throw their weight around. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:31, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
- If the term starts from election day, and the result in that seat is in absolutely no doubt, there is no point delaying the work of updating articles so that editors have to go back and update hundreds of articles weeks later when everyone's moved on. That is a great way to get articles that wind up being years out of date because they got forgotten about after the election fuss had died down. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:12, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
- Here is how votes are counted in an Australian federal election. Even for a single constituency ("division"), the result is never complete on election day. Wikiain (talk) 22:56, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
- MPs' terms start from the date of election - yes, but working back from an officially declared result. The Abbott article was being updated from even before results were in from all polling stations in the constituency, based on his own decision to concede - which, as a general rule, could be withdrawn (didn't Al Gore do that?). WP, as an encyclopedia, can report that he conceded, but he does not cease to be the member until a new member is declared. Wikiain (talk) 21:41, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
- We've always added results when the result is no longer in doubt - PM is from the date they're sworn in, but MP's terms start from the date of election. It's too early to be doing it just yet beyond the extremely obvious results (i.e. Steggall) but once tonight's counting is finished we can comfortably call all but a few lineball seats. Waiting for declarations is a pointless waste of time and invariably leads to out-of-date articles because the day after the election is when the editorial eyes are actually on these articles to do the necessarily million-and-one post-election updates. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:07, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
- technically noone is elected until the AEC declare results to the GG for the lower house, and to the State Governors for Senate seats all of which must be done by 28th June. At that stage the PM must recall parliament in the case of minority government be able to prove he has the confidence of the parliament. Gnangarra 12:08, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
- As a practical way forward, it's clear "official declaration" is probably waiting too long, but if we look at the AEC reporting, they appear to be satisfied with the outcome of all but 3 electorates which they call "close seats" (where the 2 party-preferred difference is less than 1%). I presume for all but the 3 "close" electorates, they know how many postal votes were issued for each electorate and how many are still outstanding and that this number is insufficient to alter the outcome. I think we could use the AEC "not close" electorates as a signal that we can update those articles, but hold off on the "close" ones (except of course to say that they are still undecided). Kerry (talk) 15:24, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Waiting until the declaration is useless to our readers, and I concur with the points made by The Drover's Wife and Onetwothreeip above. If we were waiting for the declaration, the seat tally would be 0-0-0 on the election page, and I hope we all agree that that is absurd. I would caution against using AEC alone as the deciding factor, since the "close seats" page is determined entirely by mathematics and doesn't take into account a number of things (exclusion order issues being the main one, and also seat-specific issues - remember Flynn in 2016, which had the kind of margin that you'd normally count as settled, but it is known for a particularly strong LNP lean in post-count which indeed changed the result, so the AEC wasn't listing it in doubt while the psephs were). A combination of AEC, ABC and other analysts (Bonham, Raue, Bowe) seems like the sensible way forward. Frickeg (talk) 21:20, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- That alas seems to hang between the devil of WP:NOTNEWS and the deep of WP:OR, and to be liable to produce ephemeral arguments depending on what is taken into account and with what weight etc etc. However, it does seem clear that we must avoid presenting projections as if they were results. Seeing that this was happening in Coalition (Australia), where AEC projected figures were appearing in the infobox as if they were firm results—and then (obscurely) as "TBD" in a table below—I've annotated them in the infobox with the ref for each house: "AEC projection, 20 May 2019". These figures can be updated as they change, together with the date, and then the ref removed when all results for that house have been declared. Wikiain (talk) 23:11, 20 May 2019 (UTC) CORRECTION: I've so annotated the House figure, in the infobox and the table; for the Senate figure in the info box, which could not be left blank (and it isn't given in the table), I've put the ref "media estimate" (unsourced, but very temporary). Wikiain (talk) 22:55, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, the object of the exercise is to have a bright line that takes the subjectivity out of it. So, those of us updating articles know when it's probably OK and for those of us on the watchlist, knowing when we should probably revert. Kerry (talk) 06:53, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- That alas seems to hang between the devil of WP:NOTNEWS and the deep of WP:OR, and to be liable to produce ephemeral arguments depending on what is taken into account and with what weight etc etc. However, it does seem clear that we must avoid presenting projections as if they were results. Seeing that this was happening in Coalition (Australia), where AEC projected figures were appearing in the infobox as if they were firm results—and then (obscurely) as "TBD" in a table below—I've annotated them in the infobox with the ref for each house: "AEC projection, 20 May 2019". These figures can be updated as they change, together with the date, and then the ref removed when all results for that house have been declared. Wikiain (talk) 23:11, 20 May 2019 (UTC) CORRECTION: I've so annotated the House figure, in the infobox and the table; for the Senate figure in the info box, which could not be left blank (and it isn't given in the table), I've put the ref "media estimate" (unsourced, but very temporary). Wikiain (talk) 22:55, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Waiting until the declaration is useless to our readers, and I concur with the points made by The Drover's Wife and Onetwothreeip above. If we were waiting for the declaration, the seat tally would be 0-0-0 on the election page, and I hope we all agree that that is absurd. I would caution against using AEC alone as the deciding factor, since the "close seats" page is determined entirely by mathematics and doesn't take into account a number of things (exclusion order issues being the main one, and also seat-specific issues - remember Flynn in 2016, which had the kind of margin that you'd normally count as settled, but it is known for a particularly strong LNP lean in post-count which indeed changed the result, so the AEC wasn't listing it in doubt while the psephs were). A combination of AEC, ABC and other analysts (Bonham, Raue, Bowe) seems like the sensible way forward. Frickeg (talk) 21:20, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- As a practical way forward, it's clear "official declaration" is probably waiting too long, but if we look at the AEC reporting, they appear to be satisfied with the outcome of all but 3 electorates which they call "close seats" (where the 2 party-preferred difference is less than 1%). I presume for all but the 3 "close" electorates, they know how many postal votes were issued for each electorate and how many are still outstanding and that this number is insufficient to alter the outcome. I think we could use the AEC "not close" electorates as a signal that we can update those articles, but hold off on the "close" ones (except of course to say that they are still undecided). Kerry (talk) 15:24, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Worst example of pre-emptive editing Í've seen so far are the "updates" to Senators who may (but may not) lose their seats such as Fraser Anning to claim they "lost their seat on 18 May", notwithstanding that these Senators' terms will not end until 30 June 2019. --Canley (talk) 00:16, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- Also note that the Second Morrison Ministry is not due to be sworn in until Wednesday 29 May, so don't put the start date of ministerial terms as the announcement date (26 May). --Canley (talk) 22:18, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right way. There is a user Wikiaus98 who is disruptively editing this page Death of Elijah Doughty and admits as much here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Wikiaus98
Not sure what can be done. The page establishes that Elijah Doughty was killed while riding a stolen motorcycle, however multiple sources confirm there is no evidence that he himself stole the motorcycle. User Wikiaus98 claims Elijah did steal the bike but with no evidence (obviously as it is not proven). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:6B0B:4B00:94FB:609E:97B7:7147 (talk) 10:46, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
- An edit that removed apparently sourced has been reverted. I put a response at Talk:Death_of_Elijah_Doughty, where we can start to look at ways improving the article. cygnis insignis 11:57, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
City of Sydney Library hosting an editathon on 15 June
Sharing this link in case anyone is interested. City of Sydney Library are hosting an editathon on 15 June which will focus on topics relevant to the LGBTI community. More info on the project page here, and you can register here. (Yes, unfortunately it is on the same day as the Wikimedia Australia Community Conference which is very unlucky timing!) Please share with anyone you think may be interested. Rubicon49bce (talk) 05:04, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Sydney in June
- a reminder of the sequence of events
- JarrahTree 12:17, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
The tide keeps rolling
Australian editors might not be aware of the tide of Portal removal, the latest is at:
It is also quite notable that only one Australian editor has ventured to this item. JarrahTree 09:07, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Waste management in Australia needs eyes
Waste management in Australia is a new article that could do with some more eyes. It was produced as part of an assignment and is rather extensive. I've done a bit of cleanup but it really could do with more input. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:52, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- It is rather large, isn't it?! But still an awesome piece of work for a beginner. It might be at some time that it's worth breaking up into some separate articles, but if it's an assignment, I'd leave it alone for a while in case splitting it up is a problem for any assessment that might be taking place. Kerry (talk) 08:37, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- Pity somehow there isnt a trend/movement for long term editors to offer comment that might encourage shorter articles.
- Also, I think the 'length' issue is close to irrelevent when the article is so well referenced - that is what should be encouraged and even rewarded for a first timer - if the average editor had the capacity and persistence to provide sourcing like that, the quality of articles on Australian articles would vastly improve JarrahTree 09:05, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Meetup 15 June
Following on from the various conferences and workshops taking place this week, a casual Sydney meetup will occur from 17:30 at The Royal Hotel in Darlington on the evening of the 15th June, all the current members of Wikimedia Australia committee will be there. see Wikipedia:Meetup/Sydney/June 2019 for details everyone is welcome. Gnangarra 04:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
RfC of possible interest
A request for comment regarding a rape allegation against Bill Shorten, an Australian politician, may be of interest to editors in this WikiProject. – Teratix ₵ 02:30, 21 June 2019 (UTC)