GadigalGuy (talk | contribs) →Problematic editing: NPOV vio and UNDUE: Reality is also perspective, ironically |
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::::::::::::I don't know why you, writing in the English-language Wikipedia in English, through a global computer network, to add to the electronic transmission of knowledge in real time, talk about a "western perspective" as if it is something outrageously foreign to you. I've been in Australia longer than you have and I suggest that neither of us are our great-great-grandparents or live lives more than marginally comparable to them. Let's stick to reality, please. If you think that I'm somehow accusing you of being illiterate, without access to metal, or the amazing benefits of modern civilisation such as McDonalds or Twitter, then let me say that this is not in my mind at all. --[[User:Skyring|Pete]] ([[User talk:Skyring|talk]]) 03:05, 7 July 2022 (UTC) |
::::::::::::I don't know why you, writing in the English-language Wikipedia in English, through a global computer network, to add to the electronic transmission of knowledge in real time, talk about a "western perspective" as if it is something outrageously foreign to you. I've been in Australia longer than you have and I suggest that neither of us are our great-great-grandparents or live lives more than marginally comparable to them. Let's stick to reality, please. If you think that I'm somehow accusing you of being illiterate, without access to metal, or the amazing benefits of modern civilisation such as McDonalds or Twitter, then let me say that this is not in my mind at all. --[[User:Skyring|Pete]] ([[User talk:Skyring|talk]]) 03:05, 7 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::'Every city-based culture developed written language'. No. Incas. The Mississippians. Just two examples of many. - <big><span style="color:#FF0000;">҉</span></big> [[User:Randwicked|Randwicked]] <big><span style="color:#FF0000;">҉</span></big> 10:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC |
:::::::::::::'Every city-based culture developed written language'. No. Incas. The Mississippians. Just two examples of many. - <big><span style="color:#FF0000;">҉</span></big> [[User:Randwicked|Randwicked]] <big><span style="color:#FF0000;">҉</span></big> 10:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC |
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:::::::::::::: You know, I was specifically thinking of the Inca and their [[Quipu]] technology. --[[User:Skyring|Pete]] ([[User talk:Skyring|talk]]) 22:13, 7 July 2022 (UTC) |
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⚫ | :::::::::::::My comments weren’t something that needed a rebuttal Pete, sometimes it is better to pause and absorb what other people are saying in order to gain an understanding that you otherwise wouldn’t have. Of course I see things through an ‘us and them’ perspective, because every single human on the planet is different, from different backgrounds, with different life experiences - we can not be anything but us and them. I’m also not suggesting that the ‘western perspective’ is foreign to me, quite the opposite, that Indigenous perspective is foreign to you, as it clearly is with the dismissal and rebuttal of how I and others see the world - and my hopes were that by providing some sort of food for thought, you’d take some time for reflection with the new perspectives in mind. Regarding your intention - Whether you had the intention or not, it is still hurtful to see that written about my culture, my family, my identity. It falls straight into the whole issue with systemic racism, it is invisible to those who have never felt it. You’ve shown you have some level of interest in Indigenous Cultures, I’m sure there is so much you’d find interesting and really great - but you’ll miss a world of information and perspective until you see it through another lens. It’s like looking at a photo, sure we can see the image, but by just observing a photo we don’t see what the photographer sees through their lens, there is so much more behind the lens. [[User:GadigalGuy|GadigalGuy]] ([[User talk:GadigalGuy|talk]]) 13:12, 7 July 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::Perhaps you should look into [[Plotinus]] and see if that "every single human on the planet is different" view holds water. He was writing 1 700 years ago. Advaita goes back even further. |
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::::::::::::::My point, if you didn't get it, is that none of us are our great-grandparents. None of my living relatives are vikings, for example. It's all history nowadays. We're moving out of the pertinent discussion now. Think about how we can improve Wikipedia coverage of specilist topics, perhaps? --22:13, 7 July 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::A subtle point here. I rarely add any content on Indigenous matters. I leave that to those who have an interest and (presumably) knowledge and resources and time for research. However, the point of this discussion is not my contributions - or lack of them - it is my concerns over [[Special:Contributions/Poketama|sustained contributions]] made by a [[WP:SPA|single purpose editor]] against established Wikiprocedure resulting in inaccurate, misleading, and poorly sourced content. Banks didn't use Indigenous placenames in any official correspondence - he didn't know any - and a colonial Premier of Tasmania was notable for being a head of government, not for being a mass murderer. Pardon me if I seek to remove inaccurate content from our encyclopaedia. --[[User:Skyring|Pete]] ([[User talk:Skyring|talk]]) 06:52, 16 June 2022 (UTC) |
::::::::A subtle point here. I rarely add any content on Indigenous matters. I leave that to those who have an interest and (presumably) knowledge and resources and time for research. However, the point of this discussion is not my contributions - or lack of them - it is my concerns over [[Special:Contributions/Poketama|sustained contributions]] made by a [[WP:SPA|single purpose editor]] against established Wikiprocedure resulting in inaccurate, misleading, and poorly sourced content. Banks didn't use Indigenous placenames in any official correspondence - he didn't know any - and a colonial Premier of Tasmania was notable for being a head of government, not for being a mass murderer. Pardon me if I seek to remove inaccurate content from our encyclopaedia. --[[User:Skyring|Pete]] ([[User talk:Skyring|talk]]) 06:52, 16 June 2022 (UTC) |
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RfC for inclusion of Australian Indigenous placenames within the lead and infobox of articles
Should the Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander names for locations be included in the lead and infobox of articles? Poketama (talk) 16:09, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Survey
- Comment Yes and no. This should be judged case-by-case. If the sourcing is there and strong enough then sure, if not then no. Blanket rules are very seldom a good idea here. Aircorn (talk) 17:04, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Support. Yes, Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander names for locations should be included in the lead and infobox of articles where they can be reliably sourced. This is important information to Aboriginal peoples, and much is lost when these names aren't represented (see also: Linda Tuhiwai-Smith, Decolonial Methodologies, p. 51). In general, beyond the meaning and importance to Aboriginal peoples, much is lost from history and relationship to place when these names are not represented, even for those who are not Indigenous. Regardless of how one feels about Indigenous histories of place, this is information that should be included in an encyclopedia entry that is discussing the history of/information about a place. Also, given the large amount research done on these histories that is readily available, it should not be hard to find WP:RS (Ex. Kim Mahood's Position Doubtful: Mapping Landscapes and Memories) to support and represent the history and significance of specific place names.--Hobomok (talk) 17:45, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Why is alternative name policy (WP:OTHERNAMES) along with guidance at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Emphasis not enough here? My reading of policy is that these names are likely to be in most situations culturally “significant”, and NCPLACE is clear enough about other languages. If the place has a clear indigenous name, it should be included, whether in prose, a parenthetical or a footnote. — HTGS (talk) 20:27, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- To expand: I, like Aircorn above, have strong reservations about blanket rules. These sorts RFCs tend to be interpreted by some as allowing, and by others as requiring these names. I support the application of OTHERNAMES for nationally significant languages, and especially for ethnically significant places; however, I also oppose the creation of any new standard that requires indigenous names for every Australian place. Similarly, any discussion here that decides against including indigenous names (a ban of sorts) would likely be in opposition to OTHERNAMES, which is disallowed per WP:CONLEVEL.
- Realistically this RFC is poorly formed, and should either be elevated to discussion on clarifying OTHERNAMES at WP:AT's talk, or discussed per case at each page. Much of the opposition here appears to be around whether or not certain names are appropriately applied to certain places (and thus their Wikipedia articles). These discussions are best made at the article level, page by page. (For those arguments, I support including names which may not apply literally to the place, but with explanatory notes that advise readers of how these names are and have been used.) — HTGS (talk) 23:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- If there is a more effective and faster way to solve this matter, it'd be great if you could assist in doing that. Discussing the initial issue of if this is allowed on each talk page is not really an option, it's what has been done so far and it devolves into edit wars. This RfC while maybe flawed is as far as we've got with this long-standing issue, because no one seems to know how to or be willing to navigate the Wikipedia dispute resolution process. Poketama (talk) 11:14, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Poketama were RFCs called at these contentious articles?
- I appreciate the desire to elevate the question, but it feels like the questions involved in these cases are more specific than
should indigenous names be mentioned in the lead?
, with the underlying question being closer to:Does this indigenous name refer to the relevant area or place, and can we confirm this with reliable sources?
. I am speculating a little here, as I haven't looked into any of this more than skimming the above discussion, so please correct me if I'm seeing the problem wrong. — HTGS (talk) 21:43, 2 June 2022 (UTC)- Yeah that is only one part of the problem. There are multiple editors within this RfC and across other discussions who have repeatedly reverted any changes that include Indigenous names in the lead because they don't agree with the concept of including them at all. Yes there is policy to show that this is allowed, but I am unaware of what to do if users keep ignoring the policy.
- The question you are asking about does need to be explored and answered, but the fundamental question is a recurring issue that has drawn all work to a standstill. Poketama (talk) 05:04, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- If there is a more effective and faster way to solve this matter, it'd be great if you could assist in doing that. Discussing the initial issue of if this is allowed on each talk page is not really an option, it's what has been done so far and it devolves into edit wars. This RfC while maybe flawed is as far as we've got with this long-standing issue, because no one seems to know how to or be willing to navigate the Wikipedia dispute resolution process. Poketama (talk) 11:14, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. There are 100 doubts, discussions, definition problems, spelling problems (different aboriginal names for the same), source problems, technical problem and 100 more problems with aboriginal names. First problem: Australian cities did not have an official Aboriginal name as native even for a single day. Aboriginal names apply to areas and regions, not cities, and cannot function as native names for cities. According the standards, including an example of the city of Gdańsk / Danzig in Wikipedia:Manual of Style: Danzig was official name of the city. The area where the city of Gdańsk / former Danzig is Polish "pl:Kaszuby" (region). Article of Gdańsk will never show name of "Kaszuby" as native name for city because this is name for historical region, not a city. A perfect other example is New York City above: if New York City lies in an area that 500 years ago was called "The Great Swamp", it does not mean that in an article about New York you should write: "New York City (formerly The Great Swamp) - city in the United States... (...)". It doesn't matter what the Indians (Native Americans) called the region, the city is a different entity. The Aboriginal name "Gabi" refers to certain areas where Sydney is situated, does not mean that "Gabi" = "Sydney". Sydney is city, "Gabi" is Aboriginal name for area. Second problem: it has already been noticed before that the introduction of Aboriginal names on a mass scale is ethno-political. Even a few users argue it this way, like "part of redress for past wrongs is the rediscovery of names and their reapplication". In addition, almost all (several dozen) countries of New World (like Australia) do not use the indigenous name for area in the first sentence of the article about cities. Third problem:: if there are 20 sources: 10 sources who showing "Gabi" as area / region and 10 sources who showing "Gabi" as a city, we are not allowed to choose just 10 sources that are in line with your point of view and you are not allowed to enter name of "Gabi" only as a city (in intro or/and infobox) relying only on the sources you choose, which are in line with your own opinion. This is breach fundamental rules of Wikipedia, i.e. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. If there are different sources, and only some of them describe the name "Gabi" as the city of Sydney (Greater Capital City Statistical Area), it is too controversial and obscure to use the name in the intro or / and infobox in the article of the city. Fourth problem: cities in Australia have a complicated definition. For example "Perth". The word of "Perth" is an ambiguous word, there are sources that describe them as a City of Perth, region, statistical unit definied by Australian Bureau of Statistics, Perth (suburb), Greater Perth, Perth metropolitan region. So, even if exist source who wrote "Perth (Boorloo)" it is not known what version Perth is written about. In addition, there are sources using this Aboriginal name for City of Perth (LGA), not Perth metropolis. This quote says a lot: "There is no equivalent Noongar terminology for the Perth metropolitan area; it is sited primarily on Whadjuk country, which extends approximately[note 1] north to Two Rocks, south to Mandurah, and east as far as York.[17][18][19] Boorloo (also transcribed as Boorlo or Burrell) referred to Point Fraser[20][21] in East Perth, and means "big swamp",[21] which describes the whole chain of lakes where the CBD and Northbridge are sited.[22] As is the case with Perth, depending on the context Boorloo can denote[citation needed][improper synthesis?] the central business district,[23][24] the local government area,[25] or the capital city in general". So, we have a purely technical problem here, we cannot use the Aboriginal name in the first sentence and infobox of main article of Perth because the Aboriginal name refers to other/different types of Perth. This is just one example, there are probably several dozen such debatable matters. Next problem: a new idea must meet the requirements Wikipedia:Core content policies: Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research (incuding WP:SYNTHESIS) and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Wikipedia:Core content policies "are not superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus". Considering Perth case, some of these rules have been broken, especially Wikipedia:Verifiability (the sources have been questioned because the name refers to different things) and Wikipedia:No original research]] incuding WP:SYNTHESIS (synthesis - an attempt to explain the problem based on various sources). Many Australian cities has problems with the Aboriginal name. Now, big problem is Aboriginal name of Brisbane, see: Talk:Brisbane#Meanjin (and other spellings). Problem in Sydney name, there are two names: Dharug: Gadi;] Greater Sydney, Dharug: Eora. Two aboriginal names in first sentence of the most important (in the World) Australian city? ...and more issues in Talk:Sydney#sydney name. Previously also Perth (Talk:Perth#Aboriginal_name - problem solved - Aboriginal name removed from first sentence). Similar problems will be in dozens of articles. First sentence of article or infobox is not a place for controversial and very debatable things. The Etymology or History sections may be used to describe these names. Using The Etymology or History sections for Aboriginal names is the best compromise. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 22:07, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- No: needs more discussion - This is not a Yes/No question. It is poorly phrased and takes way too much for granted. We should be guided by established Wikipolicy on placenames and reliable sources etc. In some cases we have Indigenous placenames that were noted by the European settlers even though they chose to name a settlement after some British notable or an English descriptive name. Although pre-colonial Australians did not have permanent settlements, in some cases their name for a geographical location can be more or less directly equated with the modern city, or even the original tiny settlement. Sydney has been many sizes over the years but at any time we may point to what is generally accepted as the settlement/village/town/city/urban conglomeration known as Sydney regardless of what parish, council or administrative name it might have had. We cannot be petty and nitpicking in throwing out all Indigenous names.
- On the other hand, some names have no historical sourcing, or refer to areas that are not recognisably equivalent to modern settlements, or are just plain wrong. How many of us are authorities on such matters? We need reliable sources and I suggest that if we accept a modern source such as a city council or a heritage board or whatever, we need to look at what their sources are rather than say that these groups in themselves are knowledgeable in the relevant Indigenous languages, culture, and history.
- Contemporary Australians of Indigenous ancestry - if we are looking at race or ethnicity as some sort of fundamental way to pigeon-hole people, a dangerous and unreliable basis - are also overwhelmingly people of European ancestry as well, and more importantly are not the same people as those who were around before the British arrived and took the place over. If we are looking at culture, then it is worth noting that we are having this discussion in English, this is the English-language Wikipedia, and I feel on safe ground in saying that everyone in this discussion is fluent in English, is comfortable with modern computing and communication technologies and is in every respect a person grounded in modern Western culture. Merely having Indigenous ancestry does not make any one of us an authority. Wikopedia welcomes editors of all backgrounds but we still need good sourcing for our content.
- Should we have Indigenous placenames in lead and infobox? No, not as a blanket rule because then we are going to have editors whose mission in life is to tick that box no matter what. We've all been around long enough to recognise the level of obsession displayed by some editors. But also Yes because there are some situations where the indigenous name is well-sourced and appropriate.
- To be in the lede and infobox I think we need something special. Something like "Gdansk/Danzig", "Istanbul/Constantinople", or "St Petersburg/Leningrad". Otherwise include it in the history or naming section where it is appropriate and uncontroversial. We shouldn't throw away useful information - we are an encyclopaedia, after all - but nor should we give that information prominence it doesn't deserve. --Pete (talk) 23:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose - On the basis that this is the english language Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 00:09, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support - Wikipedia has clear guidelines that allows for Alternative Names, specifically mentioning 'historical names, and significant names in other languages'. Where these names can be appropriately referenced as applying to a specific location, it is entirely appropriate and in-keeping with Wikipedia's guidelines to include them. Not including Aboriginal names as alternative names seems to be based on the mistaken idea that these are historical cultures that have not maintained continued connection to land and language, when that is not the case. Automatically relegating Aboriginal names to Etymology/History sections where they are clear alternative names for locations in use promulgates an idea that these names are purely historical rather than in continuous use. The Logical Positivist (talk) 02:00, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
promulgates an idea that these names are purely historical rather than in continuous use
: Most Aboriginal languages are no longer in daily use, and for a specific word for a specific location, this would be even less so. That idea you're concerned about promulgating would appear to be largely accurate, no? Endwise (talk) 13:26, 1 June 2022 (UTC)- While a significant number of Aboriginal languages have been lost as a result of colonisation,there are a number still in use - the National Indigenous Languages report found that 123 Aboriginal languages are still in use in Australia. There are quite a number of schools that are teaching local Aboriginal languages to primary and high school students now too. So it is certainly not the case that Aboriginal names are purely a historical matter. The Logical Positivist (talk) 13:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- They're not purely historical in every case, but in most cases it would seem to me they would be names not used regularly by anyone. Regardless though, I think this cuts to the point of the RFC -- If some of these are historical and some aren't, why should there be a blanket rule for all Australian articles if the Aboriginal language altnames are of differing significance? Or even better, why does there need to be Australia-specific rules beyond what is given in MOS:ALTNAME/WP:NCPLACE? Endwise (talk) 15:38, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- The simplest answer to that question is that MOS:ALTNAME has been repeatedly ignored or disputed by editors opposed to the question in this RfC. My argument would be that there is not a need for more specific rules, as inclusion of Indigenous names, historical or otherwise, is already approved by MOS:ALTNAME. So this is more about clarifying whether that is the case. Poketama (talk) Poketama (talk) 16:02, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- They're not purely historical in every case, but in most cases it would seem to me they would be names not used regularly by anyone. Regardless though, I think this cuts to the point of the RFC -- If some of these are historical and some aren't, why should there be a blanket rule for all Australian articles if the Aboriginal language altnames are of differing significance? Or even better, why does there need to be Australia-specific rules beyond what is given in MOS:ALTNAME/WP:NCPLACE? Endwise (talk) 15:38, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- While a significant number of Aboriginal languages have been lost as a result of colonisation,there are a number still in use - the National Indigenous Languages report found that 123 Aboriginal languages are still in use in Australia. There are quite a number of schools that are teaching local Aboriginal languages to primary and high school students now too. So it is certainly not the case that Aboriginal names are purely a historical matter. The Logical Positivist (talk) 13:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose – If the Indigenous name is a genuine alternative name, then yes, but if it is historical or not clearly or commonly used, it belongs in § History or § Etymology. As mentioned by other editors above, even if these names are used by Indigenous people today putting them in the infobox or lead can be undue importance in many cases. I also echo concerns that this RfC is not well-phrased, since this is not a binary issue. The reasons raised in opposition to this proposal are serious and with merit, and the discussion hasn't fully addressed the many cases they apply to. 5225C (talk • contributions) 03:45, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
I have some further comments to make after seeing other editors' responses. Anybody arguing something along the lines of "we ought to do this to acknowledge history/change views" should consult WP:NOTASOAPBOX. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to change views but to reflect them. I've also had difficulty finding any example of Indigenous place names that are currently used to refer to a city. The examples I've encountered are all historical in nature. They are not alternative names, and we should not present them as such. 5225C (talk • contributions) 05:59, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
The more I consider this, the more convinced I am that no Indigenous place names should be in the lead or infobox. Wikipedia is a general purpose encyclopaedia. We are on the English Wikipedia. Indigenous place names have hardly any recognition in everyday language and communication. The value of adding these names to the lead or infobox would be minimal and would palce undue importance on what is by any objective measure an incredibly niche name. These names belong only in § History or § Etymology depending on their present usage. 5225C (talk • contributions) 06:05, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
I know I have already made three comments on this RfC so far but I feel as though another is warranted. The real issue here seems not to be "should alternative names be in the infobox/lead". It doesn't seem (at least to me) like the editors opposing this are arguing that Indigenous place names are alternative names but shouldn't be in the lead. It's the issue of whether they are alternative names to begin with that is the problem. Consider the naming convention for geographic places, which states:
Nevertheless, other names, especially those used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature on a place, past or present, should be mentioned in the article, as encyclopedic information. Two or three alternative names can be mentioned in the first line of the article; it is general Wikipedia practice to bold them so they stand out. If there are more names than this, or the lead section is cluttered, a separate paragraph on the names of the place is often a good idea.
Consider also MOS:ALTNAME, which statesArchaic names, including names used before the standardization of English orthography should be clearly marked as such, i.e., (archaic: name), and should not be placed in the first sentence.
I have not encountered a single Indigenous name (during this discussion or elsewhere) which meets the standard of "used significantly often". It's less the question of "do we include alternative names" and more a question of "are Indigenous names alternative names". The answer to the first, which most in support appear to be addressing, is unamibously yes. The answer to the second, in my opinion, is a resounding no. I am unconvinced by the arguments to the contrary that have been presented here. 5225C (talk • contributions) 06:15, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose - If it is not an official language then no need to have an Indigenous name --Thomasmax911 (talk) 03:58, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support as per the usual guidelines for alternative names, where these are solidly sourced. This has been one of the more troublingly racist discussions (at least from certain quarters) that I've come across on Wikipedia in a long time and so I've steered clear of jumping into the fray, but ultimately, the answer lies in cutting the emotion out of it and going back to the guidance in MOS:ALTNAME. I'd also add that some of these !votes (especially the red-named new accounts) seem to have political opinions that directly contradict Wikipedia naming policy. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:53, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Support As per MOS:ALTNAME, I strongly believe that where appropriate Indigenous names of places and locations should be used in the lede and infoboxes. Dan arndt (talk) 04:51, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Support - As referenced above, this issue is a policy issue that is already clear. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) says that "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted". As far as I see it, any further necessary discussion is around the legitimacy of sources and how this information is written, not about the legitimacy of the inclusion. For the sake of it I'll argue a few points:
- Opposing argument #1 - There can be multiple spellings of Aboriginal placenames and multiple names and this makes it impossible to include these names.
- Counter-argument - It is true that this is an issue, but not that it precludes including the names. Spellings are something that are often still being sorted out, but I don't believe spelling issues should disqualify the content. As for multiple names, it is standard in many Aboriginal cultures to have multiple names for a place and all names should be included. Multiple names in a lead is acceptable in the MOS.
- Source: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322413717_Multiple_Aboriginal_placenames_in_western_and_central_Victoria
- Opposing argument #2 - The name should only be included if its an official name.
- Counter-argument - There hasn't really been any reason or policy given for this argument. However, this stipulation would wipe out virtually all Indigenous placenames which would not fit with a balanced NPOV. It is inherently political if a government adopts an Indigenous placename, and this is very unlikely to happen in many places. However, the government's decision not to make a name official does not mean the name is not in use.
- Opposing argument #3 - Aboriginal names apply to areas and regions and so there cannot also be the same native names for cities.
- Counter-argument - This is logically incorrect. The City of Port Phillip is in the same area as Port Phillip Bay. Both share the same common name, as well as a number of other current and historical regions known as Port Phillip. In the same way, metropolitan Melbourne is referred to as Naarm by contemporary Aboriginal communities, despite the historical usage of Naarm to refer to Port Phillip Bay. If it can be shown that an Aboriginal name is in use for a city, this argument isn't enough to deny that fact.
- There is also further argument that is not settled about whether the seperation of a historical region from a current region or city is reasonable at all. One user above has mentioned that Gadi refers to the region that Sydney now occupies. Another user has argued that Sydney is a settlement that continued on from and merged with the existing Aboriginal settlement and community. In my opinion, Sydney is inseperable from the region known as Gadi. They are both regional terms, referring to the same location. Sydney, the city, is inseperable from Sydney, the region. In the same way that Gadi, the settlement, is inseperable from Gadi, the region.
- Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Phillip_(disambiguation)
- Opposing argument #4 - Indigenous names are not used in other countries articles and this is evidence that they shouldn't be used here.
- Counter-argument - I have not been shown policy that shows that this kind of comparison is appropriate for deciding policy. In any case, Australia's closest neighbor New Zealand uses Indigenous placenames extensively. New Zealand has a fundamentally similar culture and history to Australia and if we are comparing precedents, it is a far better example than Poland or the USA.
- Opposing argument #5 - This feels like a political issue and Wikipedia shouldn't get involved.
- Counter-argument - This issue has the potential to be influenced by politics. It does not mean that it cannot be sorted out through looking at existing policy. If a name can be backed up with sources, it should be included. The decision to scrap the whole idea entirely would not be removing the politics from the situation - it would be an example of supporting Systemic Bias and a lack of NPOV. This is because it would lead to only including the position taken by European opposers to the policy, which is to only have the European name.
- Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Systemic_bias
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
- Opposing arguments #6 - Various statements around what constitutes a reliable source for inclusion of a name.
- Counter-argument - This is something that needs to be looked at and worked out. I believe as a community we can work out what is acceptable sourcing to show that these names have been used by Aboriginal communities. This is not an insurmountable issue and should not preclude a wider policy of including Indigenous placenames if they are well-sourced. Poketama (talk) 05:35, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Support As per MOS:ALTNAME, as the resource of knowledge that Wikipedia is, it is very appropriate that Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander names for locations are included in the lede and infoboxes. How wonderful to have this layer of history and references available to the readers who want to know more. (From MOS:ALTNAME - 'When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. These may include alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, and significant names in other languages.) I look forward to the discussions about suitable referencing although I can't see this to be different from any other statement of fact within Wikipedia. Pakoire (talk) 06:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. We already have suitable guidelines for this, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Emphasis and MOS:ALTNAME. Implementing a blanket rule that prevents editors from considering the specifics of an article is unhelpful WP:RULECREEP - particularly since no editor in support of this proposal has explained why these guidelines are inadequate. BilledMammal (talk) 11:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- The nominator has clarified that
This is not an attempt to create a blanket rule.
I oppose any attempt to create a blanket rule, but I support the use of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander names where appropriate, such as at Port Phillip Bay. However, I oppose any change to guidelines, as the current wording already supports the use when appropriate. BilledMammal (talk) 11:53, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- The nominator has clarified that
- Strong Support MOS:ALTNAME already expects the inclusion of the names in parenthesis, these names are clearly significant otherwise we wouldn't be having a month long discussion about them twice a year, but also the names are in current use and increasingly used among the non-Indigenous community also as the names begin to gain recognition. There was the New Zealand example earlier in the discussion too which works just fine. It doesn't take anything away from the articles to include a few words in parenthesis, it absolutely creates an opportunity to increase reader engagement because they may not have known about the cultural history of the places and the continuing diversity of the places. In a similar note, Wikipedia is about sharing knowledge, and including the names is an opportunity to share knowledge which improves understanding of the places and their cultural diversity & what makes the places what they are today.
- As much as I would love to include the names everywhere, and wish Wikipedia had a way of handling oral history given what happened to my ancestors (for example, my grandfather would refuse to write things down in fear of his & our safety, only telling us knowledge orally), I completely understand the need for verifiable sources, so as long as the names have sources, I strongly support their inclusion in parenthesis. I'd caution against relegating them to history because we still exist and we still use the names, it's not ancient history. GadigalGuy (talk) 13:33, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- New Zealand is being offered as an example. The problem with that is that the Maori had a civilisation with settlements and strongly-defined names. They farmed the land and it was important to them what usage specific pieces of land had. The British settlements can be more or less precisely mapped onto pre-existing Maori settlements where the names can be reliably sourced using contemporary records. That wasn't the case here in Australia where there were no Aboriginal settlements at all. Not saying that's a good or bad thing just that there's a massive problem in sourcing that doesn't exist in New Zealand. --Pete (talk) 22:08, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how that situation is much different? Maori people did not have their own writing system, and there is information that shows Aboriginal settlements including with stone dwellings, aquaculture, and agriculture. For example: Budj Bim heritage areas Poketama (talk) 06:32, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- New Zealand is being offered as an example. The problem with that is that the Maori had a civilisation with settlements and strongly-defined names. They farmed the land and it was important to them what usage specific pieces of land had. The British settlements can be more or less precisely mapped onto pre-existing Maori settlements where the names can be reliably sourced using contemporary records. That wasn't the case here in Australia where there were no Aboriginal settlements at all. Not saying that's a good or bad thing just that there's a massive problem in sourcing that doesn't exist in New Zealand. --Pete (talk) 22:08, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Support - {My statement is currently being composed... to my standards... *grumble*(oh how I hate my standards!!)*grumble*} IronBattalion (talk) 13:59, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support per MOS:ALTNAME and the many detailed arguments made above. The arguments against including suitably verified Indigenous place names are not persuasive. Issues around the sourcing and applicability of specific place names can certainly get complicated, but that kind of complexity is best dealt with through the ordinary process of collaborative editing. -- Visviva (talk) 16:44, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support - MOS:ALTNAME is pretty clear that this is a perfectly acceptable thing to do, but it does seem as though it's worth having that spelled out somewhere for this specific context to avoid any ambiguity. New Zealand's articles are a great example of how this can work in practice. Turnagra (talk) 21:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- UTC)
- Strong Support - as per the reasons outlined by others above. The native name of places is an option in infoboxes pertaining to towns and cities (among other landmarks). I’m shameless in that, in my view, Wikipedia should be used as a means to shift the overton window, which has already been shifting within the last few years when it comes to the acknowledgment of indigenous history of the land but it’s not about being ‘woke’ either. It’s about acknowledging history that, whether you agree or not, has been actively pushed into obscurity and whitewashed. If the indigenous name of a place can be verified and backed up by a source (which may not always be possible as, as another editor mentioned, Aboriginal languages are oral rather than written), it should be included in the infobox under the common name of that place in addition to being expanded upon in the history section. Geelongite (talk) 05:55, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support – The rules are clear: MOS:ALTNAME says "When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. These may include alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, and significant names in other languages." and WP:NCPLACE says "The lead: The title can be followed in the first line by a list of alternative names in parentheses" and "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted." And yet incredibly some opposers are citing these very guidelines as supporting their opposition! I do think this needs a nuanced, possibly case-by-case approach, with appropriate referencing, and most importantly that the name or names are confirmed as appropriate/accurate traditional names by the relevant Indigenous Australians (land council, Aboriginal corporation, etc.), and the language is known, and ideally that it has significant contemporary use. I wouldn't support an absolutist approach of every article with a "known" name having it in the article, but I don't think anyone, including the post that kicked off the discussion, is actually suggesting or proposing that. The small number of opposers are advocating for an absolutist approach of no traditional names in the lead or infobox ever – there seems to be no level of referencing they will accept; no willingness to compromise on their position or cooperate to reach an acceptable consensus; no good faith for those who disagree with them to the extent that accusations of vandalism, destruction and activism are made regularly. Even worse they suggest actual Indigenous Australians have a "bias" and should not be commenting on their own language. They repeatedly appeal to "logic" rather than referencing their own arguments (hard to prove a negative I suppose), or cite strange interpretations of the rules mentioned above (such as that alternative names must be in English) or of historical documents. Lastly, they seem compelled to reply to every single opposing comment on multiple talk pages, blowing out these discussions to epic proportions, so thanks to @Poketama: for trying to organise a comprehensible RFC and move replies and rebuttals to a threaded discussion section. --Canley (talk) 06:31, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose The good news is that wiki policy and wiki guidelines cover this topic well, meaning there is no need to waste time debating what to do. The bad news is that many editors , in good faith I am certain, are desperate to ignore those rules and inject as many articles as possible with their own personal opinions. Look at this comment that displays a predetermined decision based on personal opinion. "This is important information to Aboriginal peoples is lost when these names aren't represented". I agree, but so what? I should add that there is an enormous misunderstanding of wiki rules. Here, for example, from mos:altname used to justify indiginous names in the lead: 'When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. These may include alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, and significant names in other languages.). This means significant alternative names in the English language, not significant to the indiginous group or to the editor who wants to promote their cause. That is why Danzig is significant and can be put in the lead but Roma is not, so we stick with just Rome.Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:43, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Roger 8 Roger - The article for Rome does, in fact, present Roma as an alternative name in the lead sentence.The Logical Positivist (talk) 08:54, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- My understanding of this discussion is that it is being disputed whether Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander names should ever be used in the first sentence as an alternative name. The two positions being forward are, it seems to me, that they should be included as an alternative name when the name appropriately applies and can be sufficiently referenced; while the counterargument is that they should never be used as alternative names. As there is a clear Wikipedia guideline on this that with MOS:ALTNAME that provides for 'historical names, and significant names in other languages', it is still unclear to me why we would not follow that policy for Australia, as can be seen in plenty of examples for places in New Zealand and South Africa. To treat Aboriginal names as somehow lesser seems highly inappropriate to me. The Logical Positivist (talk) 08:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Roger, let me quote the line from MOS:ALTNAME you just quoted to us: "When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. These may include alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, and significant names in other languages." You seem to have some strong opinions that just aren't supported by policy, and Wikipedia isn't a place to push your particular ideological barrow. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:51, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Roger 8 Roger Your position seems to misinterpret the MOS. English names have prominence and are usually the only ones that should be used for article titles, but alternate names in other languages within the first sentence are almost universal. See: Beijing, Russia, Saint Petersburg, Tokyo, Japan, Wellington, Ireland, New Zealand, and so on. Poketama (talk) 12:13, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Roger 8 Roger, If you’re going to quote me, quote me fully. Don’t misrepresent an entire argument by selectively quoting. Not only were two books linked in the quote you draw from, but I also said that there are multiple reasons for including Aboriginal place-names, and I continued, “Regardless of how one feels about Indigenous histories of place, this is information that should be included in an encyclopedia entry that is discussing the history of/information about a place.” Other editors have also clearly shown you why and how MOS:Altname fits here, and have given you multiple examples of it in action. —Hobomok (talk) 14:15, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- First, my Rome example was not a good one, so yes I made a mistake, so sorry. Second, just because very many articles put the foreign name of a place in the title, does not make it correct - wikipedia is not a source. The only reason why it can be justified under wiki rules is if that foreign name is significant. Take a step back and consider. Significant in what context? Significant to the speakers of that language perhaps, or significant to English speakers only in some limited cases. The second I suggest is what it means for obvious reasons: this is an English language encyclopedia. Now also consider the malaise of copy-cat mass standardisation that afflicts wikipedia. That habit could well have led to all these foreign indigenous names being inserted without question. Example where a foreign alternative name is justified in the lead would be Bruges/Brugge or Falklands/Malvinas because both are significantly relevant to English speakers. Thus, no, I do not think I have misinterpreted the guidelines, rather some editors here have. I have no issue with indigenous names being used in the article, just not in the lead or infobox. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 20:05, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- MOS:ALTNAME specifically makes clear that significant names in other languages go in the lead and editors have cited a huge amount of examples of that guidance being in use on some of the busiest place articles on Wikipedia, so trying to define that guidance out of existence (for example, it says absolutely nothing about being significant to English speakers only) won't fly. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:25, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- First, my Rome example was not a good one, so yes I made a mistake, so sorry. Second, just because very many articles put the foreign name of a place in the title, does not make it correct - wikipedia is not a source. The only reason why it can be justified under wiki rules is if that foreign name is significant. Take a step back and consider. Significant in what context? Significant to the speakers of that language perhaps, or significant to English speakers only in some limited cases. The second I suggest is what it means for obvious reasons: this is an English language encyclopedia. Now also consider the malaise of copy-cat mass standardisation that afflicts wikipedia. That habit could well have led to all these foreign indigenous names being inserted without question. Example where a foreign alternative name is justified in the lead would be Bruges/Brugge or Falklands/Malvinas because both are significantly relevant to English speakers. Thus, no, I do not think I have misinterpreted the guidelines, rather some editors here have. I have no issue with indigenous names being used in the article, just not in the lead or infobox. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 20:05, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Close as bad RfC: Per HTGS and Aircorn. As I said above, if there is an indigenous name for the city in use amoung the indigenous people and that can be backed up with reliable sources then the name should be placed in parenthesis next to the primary name as per the alternative names policy. HTGS is quite right: this RfC can be interpretted as either allowing or requiring a name to be added, and that WP:OTHERNAMES is enough and should be applied in these cases. I am also extremely skeptical of arguments that involve "shifting viewpoints" or acknowledging history": Wikipedia compiles information and presents it in an encyclopedic format. Wikipedia does not lead any change, but rather updates it's content accordingly. --Spekkios (talk) 07:37, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- As per Wikipedia:Writing requests for comment It is very rare for an RfC to be closed soon after it starts, unless the RfC initiator has agreed. In most circumstances, editors who find issues with an active RfC will explain their concerns about the question in their response, so that their comments can be understood correctly. Many editors read the comments from previous editors before posting their own replies (but not usually comments on other pages or in other sections), so these explanations may counteract any issues with the initial statements.
- I'll do my best to make it clearer in the future, for now I think whoever writes the formal closing summary will understand the context from the discussion. Poketama (talk) 11:56, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose such names should not be place in the lead sentence. However if they are supported by reliable references they can go in infobox, and in a later part of the article. The reason for not having it in parenthesis after the English name, is that using these names in most cases is undue, as the name is not from a language widely spoken in the city. The examples given above eg Beijing, or palces in New Zealand do not apply to the Australian case. Better examples to follow might be Canadian cities eg Vancouver, where a name given by the Squamish people is in a Name section. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:52, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose As aboriginal languages predate all cities in Australia, there are no genuine aboriginal names for any of the cities in Australia. The recent presentation of aboriginal geographical names (fake names) as alternatives names for Australian cities is ill-considered and against Wikipedia:Naming conventions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simulaun (talk • contribs) 09:55, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- Simulaun, you say “there are no genuine aboriginal names for any of the cities in Australia” - I guess the cities of Canberra (Ngambri), Parramatta, Wollongong, Wagga Wagga, Nowra, Geelong (Djilang), Wangaratta, Mandurah, Karratha and so on do not exist? GadigalGuy (talk) 09:30, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
- The original settlers named these new settlements, so they are not bona fide Aboriginal names for these cities. Further, these names are non-aboriginal adaptions of Aboriginal words, thereby further distinguishing them from genuine Aboriginal words/names. So these cities do indeed exist, just not their aboriginal names (never have, never will). Simulaun (talk) 09:37, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Simulaun, you say “there are no genuine aboriginal names for any of the cities in Australia” - I guess the cities of Canberra (Ngambri), Parramatta, Wollongong, Wagga Wagga, Nowra, Geelong (Djilang), Wangaratta, Mandurah, Karratha and so on do not exist? GadigalGuy (talk) 09:30, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oh come now. English-language place names change over time. There are a great number of Australian place names with clear Indigenous origins. If the original European settlers gave their village that name then that's the name of the village. It may not have been an exact equivalence, and it may well have been a mistake like those occasional signs we see saying "The translator is on holidays". Maybe Wollongong means "What did you say, white dude?" but well, that's the name that stuck. My beef is where Indigenous names are being offered for cities that obviously had no pre-existing names, there being no permanent settlements apart from the TSI people working their way down Cape York. If you are going to argue against something then use reason and logic and Wikiprocedure. --Pete (talk) 21:57, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose - follow (WP:OTHERNAMES) along with guidance at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Emphasis as enough. Ancient alternatives should not get elevated to infobox or lead prominence unless they satisfy it by WP:DUE and WP:LEAD. Stuffing in some virtually unknown title at that level is not helpful. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support Where the Indigenous name can be reliably sourced, it should be included. Nick-D (talk) 00:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- Strong support. My reasoning is as the above supporting comments. Indigenous names are obviously supported by Wikipedia policy. - ҉ Randwicked ҉ 06:03, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- Sometimes. If estalished alternative with clear spelling in wide use then yes. If not no. No hard or fadt rule. --Seggallion (talk) 18:10, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- Support. Where there are sources to verify that an alternative-language name is in ongoing use, then this is a pretty clear-cut case where MOS:ALTNAME applies. For place names in regionally appropriate Aboriginal languages, including the name parenthetically in the lead sentence is both appropriate and explicitly permitted. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 21:10, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
- Bad RfC. I don't really know what's actionable here, since the nominator notes that
This is not an attempt to create a blanket rule
but also thatit is to clarify if this could or should be done, pending further discussion on the details
. My only reading of "this" is "some rule", so I'm not even sure what the nominator is proposing. But, even if a blanket style rule were being proposed, this is the wrong venue to do so; the manual of style and the WP:PLACE guideline are a collections of widespread community consensuses and consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. It is true that Wikipedia guidelines say that names other than the common name,especially those used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature on a place, past or present, should be mentioned in the article, as encyclopedic information
. This is the rule—and WP:CONLEVEL explicitly notes thatparticipants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope
. In other words, a WikiProject cannot just go off on its own with a local consensus that goes against a greater consensus, and it seems like the only thing this RfC is asking is whether or not to create a special rule for Australian leads and infoboxes that's different than the leads and infoboxes for everywhere else on Wikipedia. And, on top of that, not all relevant WikiProjects have even been notified of this (for example, WP:WikiProject Cities), which makes the CONLEVEL issue even more concerning.
- As such, we need to use global guidance for the lead and the infobox. With respect to substance, if a name for a place is a non-English alternative name that does not have significant English language use, MOS:LEADLANG offers guidance to include the non-English name in parentheses only when
[i]f the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language
. In a global context, Australian places are almost entirely associated with English and English-derived names, just as people associate the English name of Manhattan with the island instead of the similar-sounding Lenape name of "manaháhtaan". There may well be places in Australia that are primarily inhabited by indigenous people and are closely associated with a non-English name, but this would likely be the exception more than the rule. And, as MOS:ALTNAME advises,the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first sentence
when there is a section on the naming of a location (with the exception of when the name used by locals is different than the common English name). As for the infobox, this is the sort of thing that would blow the information's importance to the article subject out of WP:PROPORTION in basically all cases except for land that has a substantial indigenous population—we do not put "Wilno" in the infobox for Vilnius, nor "Smyrna" in the infobox for İzmir, nor "Danzig" in the infobox for Gdańsk. We don't have "Königsberg" in the infobox for Kaliningrad, nor "Lwów" in the infobox for Lviv nor "Վան" in the infobox for Van, Turkey. An affirmative preference towards including native names that are not used by the locale's residents seems to be well out-of-step with how the project handles native names that English-language speakers by-and-large do not associate with a particular geographical entity. Making Australia an exception to this is incoherent and outside of the remit of discussions on this page. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 23:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)- @Mhawk10: I agree vehemently with your first paragraph, but I find troubling your implication that indigenous names should not be used unless the place is primarily inhabited by indigenous people. These are people who still exist, they are not some historical tribe that has been long exterminated. If a name is used by contemporary speakers of these indigenous languages, we should absolutely include it (following everyone’s caveats about reliable sourcing etc.). These are languages significant to Australia’s modern existence, as well as its history. — HTGS (talk) 02:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement that we should include a name in the lead
if a name is used by contemporary speakers of these indigenous languages
on the condition that the people who speak that language still live in the relevant area and represent a substantial proportion of the population there. While I am not particularly familiar with the history of Australia (or New Zealand, which has been referenced in the conversation above), my use ofprimarily
was imprecise and I do not mean to argue that natives needed to be a majority (or plurality for that matter) of residents for such a name to warrant mention in the lead (even when a "name" or "etymology" section exists). My apologies for my miscommunication. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 03:09, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement that we should include a name in the lead
- @Mhawk10: I agree vehemently with your first paragraph, but I find troubling your implication that indigenous names should not be used unless the place is primarily inhabited by indigenous people. These are people who still exist, they are not some historical tribe that has been long exterminated. If a name is used by contemporary speakers of these indigenous languages, we should absolutely include it (following everyone’s caveats about reliable sourcing etc.). These are languages significant to Australia’s modern existence, as well as its history. — HTGS (talk) 02:27, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Needs more discussion
- In regards to people saying that this is not a yes or no matter, I understand that and this RfC is not intended to be. Feel free to say maybe. However, the idea is to resolve the initial question of if it should be done before delving into the secondary questions through additional RfC's on when and how it should be done and what constitutes acceptable sourcing. Poketama (talk) 04:39, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- I feel that having names in ledes and infoboxes needs strong sourcing and historical usage, otherwise it is WP:UNDUE. To that end I proposed above - a long way above in a previous subsection - that we only do this if we have a very good historical source in the "Name" or "History" section. Or we get consensus on a case by case basis. This is obviously a matter of strong feelings and we need to take care to find a workable policy that doesn't result in ongoing cultural warfare amongst editors battling for one team or another. Let there be justice, equity and unity.
- If you are proposing a blanket policy of having Indigenous placenames in the lede and infobox of every Australian geographical article, then my answer is No. The matter is not about inclusion, it is about prominence. It is not a matter of a city having alternative names over time and in different cultures, it is simply that before European colonisation there were no cities of any kind so it's not like saying that the city of Istanbul was once known as the city of Constantinople. What was the city of Melbourne called before Europeans arrived? The answer is nothing, because there simply was no city there at all.
- For what it's worth, although I'd probably disagree with Skyring on some individual cases, I don't see that there's really an alternative to the case-by-case approach he proposes without taking a stance that would be both a drastic WP:NPOV and drastic WP:UNDUE approach either way (though, to be fair, I haven't really seen anyone here pushing for the all-in approach). It's a nuanced subject and there's not a standardised system, so it fairly logically comes down to determining each case on the available information. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:48, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Poketama, To "Counter-argument #1", I qoute: "As for multiple names, it is standard in many Aboriginal cultures to have multiple names for a place and all names should be included" - yes, all aboriginal names may be included in the article, but this need not be the first sentence of an article about the city. Please be serious. To "Counter-argument #3", I qoute: "Another user has argued that Sydney is a settlement that continued on from and merged with the existing Aboriginal settlement and community. In my opinion, Sydney is inseperable from the region known as Gadi. Sydney, the city, is inseperable from Sydney, the region" - the fact that something has something to do with Sydney does not mean that you need to write about it in the first sentence of the article. To "Counter-argument #4", I qoute: "I have not been shown policy that shows that this kind of comparison is appropriate for deciding policy" - are you serious? It's not policy, it's standards of the Wikipedia. The fact is: almost all (several dozen) countries of New World (like Australia) do not use the indigenous name for area in the first sentence of the article about cities. To "Counter-argument #5", I qoute: "The decision to scrap the whole idea entirely would not be removing the politics from the situation - it would be an example of supporting Systemic Bias and a lack of NPOV" - the same problem with you, no one suggests removing Aboriginal names from the article. The discussion is only about putting multiple names in the first sentence of articles. Your problem is that you treat everything as black and white. You are trying to argue that Aboriginal names are valid, but have not given a single strong argument to insert these Aboriginal names (often many) into the first sentence of your article on Australian cities. I support the use of Aboriginal names in the article, but not in the first sentence. Apart from honoring the Aboriginal people, these names have no function in the first sentence that is meaningful to the entire city or international readers Wikipedia. Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 07:20, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think discussing this between us any further is going to be productive, which is why I've opened up the RfC. Please be civil and assume good faith. Poketama (talk) 12:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose should only be mentioned I the body if the current name is derived from an indigenous word ....
- This is the norm all over. Moxy- 03:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think discussing this between us any further is going to be productive, which is why I've opened up the RfC. Please be civil and assume good faith. Poketama (talk) 12:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Threaded discussion
Woke editors. I see the comment above:
Second problem: it has already been noticed before that the introduction of Aboriginal names on a mass scale is ethno-political. Even a few users argue it this way, like "part of redress for past wrongs is the rediscovery of names and their reapplication".
Just where is the wikipolicy on this? Is Wikipedia some sort of force for social change? Are we making a political statement? I don't mind if we include political material that is well-sourced and conforms to WP:NPOV etc. but I do feel that using Wikivoice to push for cultural change in some sort of politically-correct fashion is not what we are here for. --Pete (talk) 00:00, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hi there Pete, can you explain to me what you mean by 'woke' in this context? I only ever hear this used as a pejorative, mostly by far rightists, so I'm not sure why you would use it here to refer (apparently) to me, particularly if you want to suggest that I'm 'making a political statement'. How is using a far right pejorative not waving a big political flag yourself? ҉ Randwicked ҉ 16:06, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- Randwicked, who I believe made the original comment regarding redress can obviously speak for themselves, but I think they are being taken out of context. I interpreted their comment as around how Australia is rediscovering and adopting Aboriginal names more widely as part of addressing past wrongs as an explanation for why these names are now being used significantly more commonly, rather than that itself being the argument as to why we should use them on Wikipedia. So I don't think anyone is arguing that we should be using Wikipedia to force social change. The Logical Positivist (talk) 01:58, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, Logical Positivist. This is exactly it. I was explaining the context of why these names are coming into prominence, and why some anon editors might be removing indigenous names, to an editor who seemed unaware of that context. Very weird that one part of my comment got extracted sans context and used as evidence that I'm 'woke', whatever that is supposed to mean these days. - ҉ Randwicked ҉ 05:52, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agree here with The Logical Positivist. My reasoning for inclusion of these place names above, for example, is not at all what the quoted portion above is claiming. There might be some users who do this to WP: Right Great Wrongs, but including reliably sourced place-names in the lead and infobox, especially if those names are included elsewhere on a page, only makes sense. I get the feeling that the editor you're quoting here feels very strongly in one direction about this given frequent polemics on the subject, but they haven't spent much time listening to the other side.--Hobomok (talk) 03:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with The Logical Positivist and Hobomok above. It's just a matter of going back to basic policy principles. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:55, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think this issue should be a large element of the discussion but should be a point of caution. The way I see it, it is a NPOV issue that has the potential to be politicised by both sides. I believe you agree, if it's sourced well there is precedent and policy to include the names. I think not including the names would not be NPOV - as it would be contradicting existing policy and intentionally removing well-sourced information that a user disagrees with to suit a ethno-centric bias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Systemic_bias#:~:text=The%20systemic%20bias%20of%20Wikipedians,bias%20is%20noticeable%20throughout%20Wikipedia.
- In terms of talking about 'woke' Wikipedians, yes their POV may be biased and they need to back up their statements with evidence. It is also evident the opposing side is also potentially politically motivated. For example user @Muzi above has a userbox that says they are a 'Constitutional monarchist' across several nations. In general, the right-wing of politics has been opposed to Indigenous recognition. As such, hopefully this RfC can pull comment from people outside of Australia and different political bubbles to discuss the issue as a matter of fact and policy, not as a matter of politics. Poketama (talk) 04:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- There are some who are wedded to their own views and will never change their minds, regardless of facts or Wikipolicy. In discussion these views are generally identified and rarely gain consensus. I would say that the desire to have no Indigenous names at all is one such position, as is the view that every lede and infobox should have an alternative Indigenous name sharing equal prominence, if not renaming the article entirely. I have seen both views expressed and I think both are equally unworkable. --Pete (talk) 06:43, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
RFC tag removal
The tag for the RFC shouldn't have been deleted by an editor. It should've been kept in place, until the expiration date. At which time, the bot would've deleted it. GoodDay (talk) 19:12, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Other longstanding cultures
How should we deal with other established alternate naming systems? Many Australian places have names within the SCA Kingdom of Lochac which also includes New Zealand. These are names in current use, and have a direct one-to-one mapping with towns, cities, and states, as per this map. There are a myriad of reliable sources for these names, such as the ABC and SMH. --Pete (talk) 22:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Pete, you’re just trying to make a point, so here is the counterpoint you’re looking for: indigenous languages have a cultural and national significance that foreign languages do not. If you’re trying to be smart, why don’t you ask why we don’t list the Chinese name for Perth as well? The answer to your questions has been presupposed by everyone else at this point, so I personally would appreciate if you don’t play games, but instead make the argument you want to make. — HTGS (talk) 02:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- This comment makes it pretty clear where Pete stands in this discussion, IMO. This is apparently an insincere and disrespectful attempt to get a rise out of people, or as the kids call it, trolling. - ҉ Randwicked ҉ 11:08, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Further discussion planning
Unless someone has a better way to work out the intricacies of this issue, my current idea was to continue doing RfCs to answer individual parts of the larger question. If you have any feedback on questions you would like answered, or how they should written, please chime-in.
- So after this current RfC there would be:
- 2. Are there times when Indigenous names should not be included in an articles lead?
- 3. What constitutes suitable sourcing for including an Indigenous name in the articles' lead?
- 4. If Indigenous names are not clear on their location how should they be handled? (ie. Does Meaanjin refer to Brisbane CBD or Brisbane)
- Side note: Should a reference to 'Brisbane' be interpreted as a reference to Brisbane (the broader metropolitan area). I would argue it would, in standard Australian English.
- 5. Can an Indigenous name be included as the name for a location, if there are other sources saying it applies to another location? (eg. Naarm is the contemporary word for Melbourne, but also is historically recorded to refer to Port Phillip Bay).
- 6. If not, how can the conflict be handled? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poketama (talk • contribs) 11:48, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- For items 4, 5, I suggest that Perth's Etymology section, 2nd paragraph, is a good example. Disclosure: I wrote that paragraph, so I am biased as to its merits. At least one other user disagrees with the paragraph; see the article history, article talk page, and earlier comments on this project talk page for details. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:13, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Two key contentions in that paragraph are unsourced, the key contention that is sourced relies on two not particularly clear one-sentence mentions by the same author and then basically contradicts itself through muddled phrasing, and then questionably frames the modern usage through use of weak or questionably-described sources. It's a pretty good guide of what not to do. The Drover's Wife (talk) 13:50, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- 2 is an unanswerable question because they need to be discussed on a case by case basis. 3 is similar: there is not a uniform, formal approach, so it needs to be hashed out in each case. 4 is just a question of what the sources say. 5 is similar: we describe what the sources use, and if the sources verify that it's the contemporary name it is absolutely not the place of Wikipedians to disregard sources based on their own opinions. These all basically fall back to the same point: take the opinion and emotion out of it and assess each case on the available sources. The Drover's Wife (talk) 13:38, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- So far discussions on these issues on a case-by-case basis has led to a standstill and edit-warring. Do you know how to proceed in those instances? eg. the Perth article has been fighting about this one for quite a while. Poketama (talk) 05:07, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- Was there an RfC held for the Perth case? That would've been the best option in my opinion. --Spekkios (talk) 05:24, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- Having an RfC every single time these questions comes up seems to me to be a poor use of resources. The same arguments are had again and again and again across virtually any page with an Indigenous name or proposing an Indigenous name. Is there no way to establish a precedent? I'm not saying 'all pages must have an Indigenous name without question', I just would rather not have to deal with arguments like 'Parramatta cannot be called Parramatta because there's also a Lake Parramatta' one hundred times. Assuming that argument is incorrect, if a user can just use it to block editors who are contributing names until a RfC is done - they will use it as a weapon to filibuster progress and people will give up editing. I've seen this happen enough in this space already to know that would be the case. Poketama (talk) 08:12, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- The precendent is already established in MOS:ALTNAME. If there are relevent non-English names for a location and a consensus develops to include the name based on reliable sources then the name is added. If no consensus develops then it isn't. If consensus can't be established then an RfC should be called. Spekkios (talk) 09:36, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- What Spekkios said. There's not a way around this because it's not like there's a standard uniform system of recognition of indigenous names, or any standardised way it could be approached - it's something that's inevitably going to be worked out case by case. One thing that perhaps would be useful is an RfC on establishing some specific guidance, such as knocking on the head the racist assumption that the boundaries of Aboriginal place names can't evolve over time in the same way Anglo place names do all the time, which would seem to run through some of the opposition to referencing well-sourced contemporary names. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:08, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- The precendent is already established in MOS:ALTNAME. If there are relevent non-English names for a location and a consensus develops to include the name based on reliable sources then the name is added. If no consensus develops then it isn't. If consensus can't be established then an RfC should be called. Spekkios (talk) 09:36, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- Having an RfC every single time these questions comes up seems to me to be a poor use of resources. The same arguments are had again and again and again across virtually any page with an Indigenous name or proposing an Indigenous name. Is there no way to establish a precedent? I'm not saying 'all pages must have an Indigenous name without question', I just would rather not have to deal with arguments like 'Parramatta cannot be called Parramatta because there's also a Lake Parramatta' one hundred times. Assuming that argument is incorrect, if a user can just use it to block editors who are contributing names until a RfC is done - they will use it as a weapon to filibuster progress and people will give up editing. I've seen this happen enough in this space already to know that would be the case. Poketama (talk) 08:12, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- Was there an RfC held for the Perth case? That would've been the best option in my opinion. --Spekkios (talk) 05:24, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- So far discussions on these issues on a case-by-case basis has led to a standstill and edit-warring. Do you know how to proceed in those instances? eg. the Perth article has been fighting about this one for quite a while. Poketama (talk) 05:07, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- "…the boundaries of Aboriginal place names … evolve over time in the same way Anglo place names do all the time…" As in Sydney referring to a city a great deal larger than the original settlement? Yes, but how exactly would this work for Indigenous place names? The place names of the original residents referred to geographical features. A bay, a valley, a river, a mountain. Those things don't evolve over time. There were no Aboriginal towns or cities that are entities distinct from the land. Any name for a settlement would have to have come after the settlement was established. Are there any instances of that situation? And, on that note, do you have examples of Aboriginal place names evolving over time? This all seems very hypothetical to me. --Pete (talk) 06:54, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- "So far discussions on these issues on a case-by-case basis has led to a standstill and edit-warring." Perhaps this is an indication that there is a problem? Trying to mandate that every Australian place has an Indigenous name in the lede and infobox is unworkable IMHO. The real problem is that only a few names are going to achieve consensus through sourcing, established usage, and geographic equivalence. There are a few crusaders who are doing their best to sneak as many alternate names in as possible by a variety of methods. One I highlighted earlier was the mass cut-and-paste of heritage board listings to replace established Wikipedia text. So much for our work over many years; now for many articles we just have slabs of text from some council website. A copyright headache at the very least. Can we not work together instead of trying to sneak things past? --Pete (talk) 05:40, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- Can you link to some examples where this is happening? I havn't run into any occurences of people trying to mandate anything, but I have run into a lot of wiping of names by uninformed users. If what you say is happening I'll pitch in to help correct it. Poketama (talk) 07:58, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- There are a number of articles on heritage-listed places and objects in New South Wales and Queensland which were auto-generated using CC-BY licensed text from the websites of those states' heritage councils. I presume these are what Pete is talking about? As I said, they are CC licensed so there is no copyright issue, didn't replace anything, and they were generated years ago so have nothing to do with "crusaders" trying to "sneak things past", or with this debate or traditional names at all as far as I can see. --Canley (talk) 09:00, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm also baffled as to what Skyring is referring to here - if he's referring to the heritage sites project, that a) had nothing to do with indigenous issues and b) didn't touch any city/town articles because it was entirely focused on buildings and specific sites. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:08, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- There are a number of articles on heritage-listed places and objects in New South Wales and Queensland which were auto-generated using CC-BY licensed text from the websites of those states' heritage councils. I presume these are what Pete is talking about? As I said, they are CC licensed so there is no copyright issue, didn't replace anything, and they were generated years ago so have nothing to do with "crusaders" trying to "sneak things past", or with this debate or traditional names at all as far as I can see. --Canley (talk) 09:00, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- Can you link to some examples where this is happening? I havn't run into any occurences of people trying to mandate anything, but I have run into a lot of wiping of names by uninformed users. If what you say is happening I'll pitch in to help correct it. Poketama (talk) 07:58, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- "So far discussions on these issues on a case-by-case basis has led to a standstill and edit-warring." Perhaps this is an indication that there is a problem? Trying to mandate that every Australian place has an Indigenous name in the lede and infobox is unworkable IMHO. The real problem is that only a few names are going to achieve consensus through sourcing, established usage, and geographic equivalence. There are a few crusaders who are doing their best to sneak as many alternate names in as possible by a variety of methods. One I highlighted earlier was the mass cut-and-paste of heritage board listings to replace established Wikipedia text. So much for our work over many years; now for many articles we just have slabs of text from some council website. A copyright headache at the very least. Can we not work together instead of trying to sneak things past? --Pete (talk) 05:40, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Regarding "2. Are there times when Indigenous names should not be included in an articles lead?" Answer: Yes. While Indigenous names for geographical areas can/should be used in the lead, there are no bona fide Indigenous names for Australian cities. There is a recent trend, however, of using Indigenous names of geographical areas instead. These should, however, not be presented in the lead as bona fide Indigenous names as that would amount to disinformation. Rather, they should be presented and explained in the body of the text as aberrations.Simulaun (talk) 12:21, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
- User Pete wrote: "So far discussions on these issues on a case-by-case basis has led to a standstill and edit-warring." Perhaps this is an indication that there is a problem?" - exactly. From the beginning, inserting Aboriginal names generates nothing but trouble. Also, I qoute: "There are a few crusaders who are doing their best to sneak as many alternate names in as possible by a variety of methods" - that's also absolutely right, I noticed it too. I also agree with user Simulaun, I qoute: "there are no bona fide Indigenous names for Australian cities". Subtropical-man (✉ | en-2) 18:55, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- As someone who has spent plenty of time in the well known Australian cities of Wollongong and Canberra - I have to disagree with the notion that “there are no bona fide Indigenous names for Australian cities”. GadigalGuy (talk) 09:40, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Joshua John Moore, the first European land-owner in the region, named his grant "Canberry" in 1823 after the Canberry or Nganbra tribe" Simulaun (talk) 10:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes but there are also similar names locally. Jerrabomberra for example. I'd like to see some original sourcing on the matter. So many of the sources offered are current contemporary rather than anything we can reasonably document as pre-existing settlement. --Pete (talk) 10:34, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- "Joshua John Moore, the first European land-owner in the region, named his grant "Canberry" in 1823 after the Canberry or Nganbra tribe" Simulaun (talk) 10:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- As someone who has spent plenty of time in the well known Australian cities of Wollongong and Canberra - I have to disagree with the notion that “there are no bona fide Indigenous names for Australian cities”. GadigalGuy (talk) 09:40, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Whilst agreeing that this is a poorly constructed RfC I would like to note: (a) that geographical locations and local landmarks rather than cities are the articles most likely to get indigenous names associated with them. (b) Looking at the Uluru page there is a "native name" entered in the infobox so there is somewhere that it belongs. (d) No matter what this will be decided on a case by case basis. This matches what can be seen on the renaming of places in South Africa.Gusfriend (talk) 11:16, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Proposal
Given the many viewpoints and intricacies presented here can I suggest the development of a WP:ESSAY on the topic which can then be shared and used as part of the discussion when individual articles are being changed?Gusfriend (talk) 11:21, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- Sounds like an excellent idea.
- 1. Indigenous place names are appropriate in articles on Australian topics.
- 2. Where there is a reason to use it - for example in discussing aspects of settlement or history or there is a clear Indigenous component to the content.
- 5. Indigenous place names should not be given equal prominence to the established place names without a very good reason:
- 5a. There is a good historic source for the name
- 5b. The name has been in wide use over time.
- 6. Indigenous names are always appropriate in the history section of a location article and are encouraged, along with good sourcing and some mention of the pre-colonial people: who they were, any "first contact" events or difficulties etc.
- Just my thoughts --Pete (talk) 22:28, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- I was thinking that it would also be good to include a couple of examples like Kata Tjuta/The Olgas and Uluru which is officially gazetted as Uluru / Ayers Rock as part of a dual naming policy plus noting that the consensus has changed over time as can be seen for those places.Gusfriend (talk) 03:07, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- 'Uluru' highlights what I think is one of the problems with dual/alternative naming. The current WP Uluru lead starts with "Uluru (/ˌuːləˈruː/; Pitjantjatjara: Uluṟu [ˈʊlʊɻʊ])...". This is 1) duplication of information (2x 'Uluru') and 2) information (Pitjan-something or other) that is of little or no immediate relevance or interest to the vast majority of people perusing the page in question.
- This appears to be a common issue (e.g. "Wrexham (/ˈrɛksəm/ REKS-əm; Welsh: Wrecsam; Welsh pronunciation: [ˈrɛksam])") and I do not believe that it is expedient to start out with what is essentially a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. Pedantic details do not belong in the introduction/lead. Simulaun (talk) 09:21, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- I was thinking that it would also be good to include a couple of examples like Kata Tjuta/The Olgas and Uluru which is officially gazetted as Uluru / Ayers Rock as part of a dual naming policy plus noting that the consensus has changed over time as can be seen for those places.Gusfriend (talk) 03:07, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- Simulaun, you raise a valuable point. Consider this:
This is one of numerous examples. We are an encyclopadia, our mission is to supply useful information, and the lede is where we try to be as useful and information-rich as possible.Hobart (/ˈhoʊbɑːrt/ ⓘ[1]) (Nuennonne/Palawa kani: nipaluna) is the capital and most populous city of the Australian island state of Tasmania. --diff here
- Simulaun, you raise a valuable point. Consider this:
- Without wishing to offend anybody more than they desire, this information aboput Indigenous names and languages and tribes and nations is not sufficiently useful or practical information to warrant such prominence, especially for those who use Wikipedia for actually finding stuff out rather than scoring political points here and elsewhere. If I'm on the road and I ask Siri to pull up information on a place, I'm going to have to wade through all this cruft before my phone screen (or Siri's querulous voice) gives me anything useful.
- I am not saying that this stuff shouldn't be in the article but realistically it is information that refers to a time and environment of centuries past and the cultural and political environment of having to worry about tribal boundaries and names and what Indigenous language was spoken where has long ceased to have any immediately practical purpose. It is now effectively a political battleground, and I am heartily sick of all this unhappiness and unproductive manouevring about who is planting their team's flags in our fabulous information resource. Instead of being on the peak of the summit of an article, perhaps it could be more usefully presented in the body in a "History/Entymology" section, something of that nature? --Pete (talk) 21:59, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- It could be worst. This could be an RFC related to gender pronouns, etc. GoodDay (talk) 17:54, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well, gender pronouns are things that we've got to get right as well. In my eighth decade, I've seen mainstream culture change to an extraordinary extent, and nowadays people commonly use pronouns and names and gender identities and preferences that would have been unheard of when I was a girl.
- It could be worst. This could be an RFC related to gender pronouns, etc. GoodDay (talk) 17:54, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am not saying that this stuff shouldn't be in the article but realistically it is information that refers to a time and environment of centuries past and the cultural and political environment of having to worry about tribal boundaries and names and what Indigenous language was spoken where has long ceased to have any immediately practical purpose. It is now effectively a political battleground, and I am heartily sick of all this unhappiness and unproductive manouevring about who is planting their team's flags in our fabulous information resource. Instead of being on the peak of the summit of an article, perhaps it could be more usefully presented in the body in a "History/Entymology" section, something of that nature? --Pete (talk) 21:59, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- Indigenous placenames are another topic, and one we need to get right. I don't want to see extremists throw rocks at each other, but nor do I want to see poor scholarship passed off as solid information. Gusfriend, you suggested an essay and I think that is a bloody good suggestion. I think it needs to be a cooperative effort with some solid grounding in Wikiprocess with the objective of being something we can all take ownership of as a way forward. How do we proceed from here? --Pete (talk) 02:05, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- There are several levels and types of essays Wikipedia:Essays starting with user essays in user space, then essays in wikispace, through WP:ADVICEPAGE going all the way to official guidelines and polices WP:GUIDELINE.
- My quick reading of them leads me to think that creating a namespace essay is probably the best way to start as I think that it will take a bit off back and forth to get started. Then at a later stage we can work towards having it as an Australian Project advice page.
- If no-one has an issue with the approach I will start something so that we have something to start with in the next day or so and then let everyone here know about it so that we can work on it.
- Gusfriend (talk) 10:36, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Indigenous placenames are another topic, and one we need to get right. I don't want to see extremists throw rocks at each other, but nor do I want to see poor scholarship passed off as solid information. Gusfriend, you suggested an essay and I think that is a bloody good suggestion. I think it needs to be a cooperative effort with some solid grounding in Wikiprocess with the objective of being something we can all take ownership of as a way forward. How do we proceed from here? --Pete (talk) 02:05, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
I haven't got involved in the above long discussion and only have time to skim it briefly now, as I'm going away for a while tomorrow. Starting with the essay and moving towards advice or guideline about naming sounds reasonable to me. I am wondering whether the draft style guide that I started writing up several years ago could be incorporated here as well? The background work looks long, but actually the thing itself could be considerably abbreviated. Either way, I'm happy to be involved in the project once it gets going. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 04:15, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Problematic editing: NPOV vio and UNDUE
Looking at recent edits by USER:Poketama I see a sustained push to recast Australian articles without apparently gaining consensus for widespread and biased additions.
For example, I see the lede of James Whyte (Australian politician) changed from
James Whyte (30 March 1820 – 20 August 1882) was a Scottish-born Australian politician who served as the sixth Premier of Tasmania, from 20 January 1863 to 24 November 1866.
to this
James Whyte (30 March 1820 – 20 August 1882) was a Scottish-born Australian politician notable for conducting multiple massacres of Aboriginal people. He served as the sixth Premier of Tasmania, from 20 January 1863 to 24 November 1866.
Diff here. While this may be accurate, I think that this chap is notable for his political career and that we really cannot label him a mass murderer (as one intermediate edit put it) without a conviction.
This fellow is notable for being Premier of Tasmania and we have multiple high quality sources for this. The sources for him killing Indigenous folk are few and not widely known. While I am sure that these events occurred and are considered horrific by modern standards they didn't stop him gaining enough popular and political support to reach head of government status.
I think that we need to be guided by existing wikipolicy in handling such matters, rather than pushing barrows up to the top of the lede to promote whatever partisan or personal or political viewpoint we might have. I'd love to see a BLP about a certain ex-politician highlight his career as an idiot clown rather than President of the USA, but there are rules developed over time and it's probably best that we stick to them.
Other edits - and they are legion - follow the same line of giving undue prominence to Indigenous matters. Realistically Australian history has been almost exclusively a story of colonisation within the British Empire and later Commonwealth rather than dealing with the natives who were minor participants in the narrative and did little to impede the progress of imperial endeavour. An example:
Sir Joseph Banks, the eminent scientist who had accompanied Lieutenant James Cook on his 1770 voyage, recommended Kamay on the Country of the Eora nation, later named Botany Bay as a suitable site. [1]
is complete nonsense. Banks recommended Botany Bay, which Cook had named some years earlier. He would not have known the Indigenous name and there are no records of him ever having used it, and certainly not in official correspondence connected with the decision to colonise the land. In fact it was his steadfast view that the land was all but uninhabited and certainly devoid of any nations or governments.
Again, I am sure that the original residents had a name for the place and that if we have a reason to mention it then it should be mentioned in appropriate location and prominence but it is hardly the place of our encyclopaedia to distort the facts in pursuit of some personal campaign te redress the wrongs of colonisation or whatever. --Pete (talk) 01:14, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- These seem like issues that need specific individual discussion and source evaluation rather than being looked at en masse - there's not a general principle or understanding that can resolve these things on bulk. It is important that we give things an appropriate weight on the sources, but also that we do not try to whitewash appalling conduct that has met with wider acknowledgment in recent times. There are cases where I'd strongly agree with the inclusion of references to massacres in the lead sentence of a colonially-respected figure and others where it's not appropriate. For example, in Whyte's case it'd seem to be appropriate to mention it in the lead section but not in the lead sentence; in Banks' case, the wording is silly for the reasons you state but not necessarily the general point of acknowledging that he was selecting a place that already had a name. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:54, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah look when I looked at the article on James Whyte I was surprised to see I had put it in the first sentence and that was a mistake, I'd happily change it around. However, anytime these folks have an issue with what I've written they just blank it. I think it is definitely notable and worthy of including in the lead, and this is not a recent edit it was in there for quite a few months. Was it undue prominence? Yes, my mistake. But why just blank it instead of fixing it? Poketama (talk) 12:44, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- So you are saying it's up to other editors to follow you around fixing your mistakes. Perhaps you might consider other ways of spending your time that aren't so disruptive? If I remove something, I give a reason. Maybe it fits better elsewhere but I'm not inclined to reward disruptive behaviour. Again, WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE are topics you would find useful in considering further contributions. --Pete (talk) 16:34, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm just saying that when I see a new editor trying to work on the project, and they've made mistakes, I will fix the mistakes rather than deleting their work and either scaring them off or starting an edit war. Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers I will read over those guidelines you added again. Is there anything else I can do? What was the resolution you were hoping for when making this post? Poketama (talk) 06:07, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Ok. I went back and had a look. You have completely misrepresented my edits on the James Whyte in your first post by comparing an edit from 2020 to an edit in 2022. There were many different edits between then. In fact, the prominence of the sentence was not put there by me but by an anonymous user 3 months ago. I cleaned up the clunky wording recently and didn't move the prominence. If you have concerns about the mass-murderer label, that's something to work out on the talk page. But that was edited out quite a long time ago, and this information has been in the lead for two years now which I think gives it consensus does it not? Poketama (talk) 06:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm just saying that when I see a new editor trying to work on the project, and they've made mistakes, I will fix the mistakes rather than deleting their work and either scaring them off or starting an edit war. Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers I will read over those guidelines you added again. Is there anything else I can do? What was the resolution you were hoping for when making this post? Poketama (talk) 06:07, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- So you are saying it's up to other editors to follow you around fixing your mistakes. Perhaps you might consider other ways of spending your time that aren't so disruptive? If I remove something, I give a reason. Maybe it fits better elsewhere but I'm not inclined to reward disruptive behaviour. Again, WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE are topics you would find useful in considering further contributions. --Pete (talk) 16:34, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah look when I looked at the article on James Whyte I was surprised to see I had put it in the first sentence and that was a mistake, I'd happily change it around. However, anytime these folks have an issue with what I've written they just blank it. I think it is definitely notable and worthy of including in the lead, and this is not a recent edit it was in there for quite a few months. Was it undue prominence? Yes, my mistake. But why just blank it instead of fixing it? Poketama (talk) 12:44, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree this should be handled on a case by case basis but the two examples you've given are pretty egregious and are clearly pushing a POV; both should be restored to their original state. 5225C (talk • contributions) 05:05, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Without going into the particular edits being mentioned (and whether this is the appropriate place to even be discussing them), it is important that we are conscious of reflecting an Anglo-Australian bias in framing articles, with ensuring Indigenous aspects of Australian history is reflected in articles important to addressing systemic bias. Someone being involved in the massacring 60 people is fairly notable, even if they were also Premier. If they had massacred 60 European colonists, would we question it being notable?
- I would also note that Aboriginal people have lived on the Australian continent for at least 65,000 years, while Europeans have only colonised the continent for a few hundred - only very recent participants in Australia's narrative from that perspective. The Logical Positivist (talk) 14:16, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well yes, but we've got to stick to the rules about sources and stuff. This chap may have been a horrid exterminator of his fellow human beings but he's not notable for that. Notability isn't a matter of personal taste; it's something we can quantify. Nobody is questioning that there have been human beings on the continent for a bloody long time but until Europeans arrived, what sources do we have? We are talking archaeology and paleontology rather than history, I suggest.
- I don't mind presenting facts to our readers. You know, we're an encyclopaedia after all, but the reason Wikipedia works is because we follow rules and we don't just put down whatever we feel like because we know it in our guts or our Auntie said it was important. If someone is so driven that they have to give Indigenous names and views and opinions prominence undeserved by sources and facts, then we have a problem. In what universe did Joseph Banks recommend a settlement at Kamay? He didn't know the name given by the locals, nobody he knew knew that name, the British Colonial Office didn't. It wasn't on any map or in any journal or report. Poketama just made up a fantasy where Banks used that name, and he did it because, well I don't know exactly why, but it certainly doesn't come from any reliable source and it doesn't go with our rules about notability and NPOV.
- If we can find well sourced material - on any topic - we present it in its proper place. --Pete (talk) 16:27, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you have interpreted a situation that doesn't fit with the reality of how I have acted. What you're describing about the sentence the sentence about Joseph Banks is a grammatical mistake that leads to ambiguous interpretation, which I acknowledge. It's not malicious. 'Joseph Banks recommended Kamay' is intended to mean 'Joseph Banks recommended the location that was known as Kamay by the people who lived there'. This would be similar to saying 'Pemulwuy recommended that his party go to Botany Bay', which would be a lot less controversial but equally incorrect.
- I'll work on using less ambiguous wording in the future.
- It seems like you have larger concerns about the notability of Indigenous knowledge and the applicability of published oral history as a primary source from ethnic groups that did not have a written language pre-colonisation. Could you start an investigation into how to handle that issue in the future? That would help resolve ambiguity instead of dealing with individual edits. Poketama (talk) 06:18, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- If we can find well sourced material - on any topic - we present it in its proper place. --Pete (talk) 16:27, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's not a matter of grammar. It's your behaviour. You look at an article and think, "now where can I squeeze in the Indigenous name?" Botany Bay may have been known as Kamay by the locals but where is your sourcing? Banks had minimal interaction with the locals, likewise Cook, and so how, precisely, did the 1770 visitors know what the locals called the place? It's an historical article, history is the record of events, and I can't see how there would be any record of the Indigenous name until decades later. Here you are editorialising from the future, much like saying "little did Cook know, as he stepped ashore on the golden sands of Kealakekua Bay that fateful day…"
- I have no problem with indigenous place names being used appropriately and where well-sourced. What I do have a problem with is their poorly-sourced and overly prominent usage as if there was some sort of direct equivalance between Anglo and Indigenous names and in every possible case some crusader has to insert an Indigenous name regardless of wikipolicy. --Pete (talk) 07:19, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Again, I think you are not understanding what I have written. In no way did I intend that Banks was using the name of an Indigenous area. That is a grammatical issue. As for the rest, I'm not really sure how you want me to resolve the issue you're having? Do you need to refer it to an admin? Poketama (talk) 07:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- I raised the matter of your insistent WP:SPA here. It is quite plain, by noting your contributions, what your agenda is. I'm not the first editor and by no means the most insistent to call attention to your behaviour and request that you follow Wikiprocedure. As for Banks, your contributions may have been well-meaning but they changed the existing accurate and well-sourced content into falsehood. We cannot have that sort of behaviour in an encyclopaedia. You do see this, don't you? --Pete (talk) 20:52, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Again, I think you are not understanding what I have written. In no way did I intend that Banks was using the name of an Indigenous area. That is a grammatical issue. As for the rest, I'm not really sure how you want me to resolve the issue you're having? Do you need to refer it to an admin? Poketama (talk) 07:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- I have no problem with indigenous place names being used appropriately and where well-sourced. What I do have a problem with is their poorly-sourced and overly prominent usage as if there was some sort of direct equivalance between Anglo and Indigenous names and in every possible case some crusader has to insert an Indigenous name regardless of wikipolicy. --Pete (talk) 07:19, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Heyo. I'm not sure why this is on this page.
Yeah look as much as people want to attack me as some covert political actor I'm not. I'd probably be more active and persistent if I was haha. I am looking to add information that has been left out of Wikipedia, and it is well sourced and true information. I am learning the rules and guidelines of Wikipedia and will follow them, I'm not interested in fighting to change guidelines. I also recently read a page about single-issue editors, so I'm trying to branch out to other topics. I'm just interested in this particular area of history, and I don't think it's NPOV to completely neglect it.
Like, the Premier of Tasmania right from 2 centuries ago? Notability today? He has no notability. Except he also led massacres, which IS notable. So I don't think it's undue prominence. However see my comment above.
To answer another point, as far as I'm aware I'm not required to discuss things on a talk page before I make an edit that is well-sourced and within guidelines. But if I'm not in the guidelines, make it clear and I'll stop.
As for when I have included the name of the Indigenous nation - I make one mention of it, in the history section when the colonizers initially arrive. If that's not the place for it I'm not sure where is? I also balance it, I make note of what it is currently named to not create confusion. But how is it more accurate to say 'Cook landed at Botany Bay' than it is to say 'Cook landed at Kamay, later named Botany Bay'? Would you also say the Mayflower arrived at the United States of America? As for the other stuff you mention around Banks, if that's wrong I made a mistake. That's not a political agenda, just an error. Work with me here, I'm not your enemy and I have no interest in fighting a war. Poketama (talk) 12:30, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- You are creating disruption by not following the rules and requiring other editors to go around after you cleaning up your stuff. This is a behaviour issue and it's longstanding. If you don't understand how Wikipedia works, then the question of competence comes up. I specifically mention WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. Perhaps you could go and look at those? --Pete (talk) 16:27, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)You are right the editing process is bold-revert-discuss, on the notability side of the massacre its not in dispute even at the time of the event. The investigation in to it failed to follow the rules so there was no prosecution, the lead should mention it as its a significant part of the article and Whytes notability, its also significant event thats had lasting impact. Being the 6th Premier of Tassie is more of a footnote that would fall close to WP:1E except for the fact that he held a high political office of the Colony which is an acceptable exception. A differing choice of wording, something like; In 1854 Whyte was one of six settlers responsible for the xxxxx massacre which would later been seen as a contributing factor to a second massacre. - source is http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page11108468 (1860 source, bottom right of the page) is reliable Pete. On the second one Banks recommended Botany Bay without knowing its was on the Eora nation or that its name is Kamay so its inappropriate to use it in that context. We all need to tone down the way respond to minor editing disputes, its not pushing a political agenda to describe an event it really doesnt need trigger long discussions if you can avoid them. Gnangarra 16:34, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
- I strongly second Gnangarra's comment, for what it's worth. The Drover's Wife (talk) 06:38, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- Replying at somewhat of a tangent, I would expect that getting the wording right for someone like Banks or Cook who were involved with naming geographical features is always going to require some effort and / or back and forth (possibly with a RfC (see WP:RFC) with people who have different opinions. If you want to see a similar issue playing out in a different locale look at some of the discussions related to the List of renamed places in South Africa. The talk page of Queenstown, South Africa is relatively benign but still there has been talk plus a RfC without getting consensus to change the page name to reflect the new official name of the city.
- I would also suggest that adding indigenous names in Australia will slowly but surely get easier as the community consensus changes, just look at the usage of Uluru. If you were looking for areas where adding indigenous place names would be appreciated and unlikely to raise any concern then you may want to consider pages like St Peters, New South Wales (a random suburb of Sydney) and the former municipal area Municipality of St Peters which makes no mention of indigenous history at all. Gusfriend (talk) 06:39, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- The example of New Zealand has been raised here several times. I suggest that comparison is flawed. The Māori population of NZ is much larger than the Aboriginal population in Australia. There is one language, te reo Māori, and a large part, in fact most, of the NZ population speaks it to some extent. The NZ national anthem is often sung in English and Māori. None of these things are true in Australia. I suggest that using phrases like, "<insert city/town name here> is situated on the traditional lands of the <insert clan/tribe name here> people" would a) be easier to source reliably; b) be in line with customary descriptions in the media; c) consequently find much more acceptance among editors and readers. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:00, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- There is also the role of the Treaty of Waitangi and associated history. Gusfriend (talk) 07:28, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Māori were a sovereign nation and enforced their sovereignty by force, beating the strides off the best of the British Empire time and again. They outfought and outthought the Poms, not just beating the Redcoats but humiliating them. The battle of the Gate Pa is a good example. They arguably won the Māori Wars but lost the peace, not being part of global diplomacy. Contrasting the sophisticated Māori civilisation to the illiterate Stone Age culture of Aboriginal Australians at the time reveals the shortcomings of the latter in promoting and retaining their culture. Māori place names were well-known and well-recorded. The same can hardly be said for Australia where every aspect of Indigenous culture including place names was recorded through a lens of often faulty and culturally biased Anglo logs, journals, despatches, and proclamations. --Pete (talk) 20:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- That you just wrote “the illiterate Stone Age culture of Aboriginal Australians” without any hint of irony says much more about you, how you’d like Wikipedia to read, and why you continue to cast aspersions on another editor than anything else you’ve written. Stop it. —Hobomok (talk) 00:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm sorry? What part of that description of pre-European contact Australians do you think is inaccurate? The situation is that Aboriginal society in Australia had not developed writing and so could not record details of their culture, including place names. Consequently the only historical records we have are sourced from the colonisers who naturally imposed their own spelling and other linguistic inaccuracies in their records. --Pete (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- You're doing exactly the same thing that you're accusing other people of: you're unable to see past your own strongly-held, relatively fringe opinions and it's twisting your approach to Wikipedia content. I don't intend to relitigate the History Wars with you, but writing “the illiterate Stone Age culture of Aboriginal Australians” without any hint of irony" demonstrates that it's left neutrality so far behind that it's on a different planet. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:35, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's very clear from @Skyring's comments throughout different discussions what their opinion is on Aboriginal cultures. Only one of these comments is: Talk:Melbourne where he describes modern Aboriginal people as a "confected culture made up by people of British ancestry living in suburbs". The incredible bias shown in Skyring's comments shows to me they should not be involved in editing or removing information about Aboriginal cultures. As such, I can only see their repeated blanking of information and heavy-handed diatribes on 'political activism on Wikipedia' as bad-faith editing. Poketama (talk) 05:18, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Gotta agree. Once an editor starts chucking around the insult/far-right shibboleth "woke" at other editors it's pretty hard to take them on good faith. - ҉ Randwicked ҉ 10:52, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's very clear from @Skyring's comments throughout different discussions what their opinion is on Aboriginal cultures. Only one of these comments is: Talk:Melbourne where he describes modern Aboriginal people as a "confected culture made up by people of British ancestry living in suburbs". The incredible bias shown in Skyring's comments shows to me they should not be involved in editing or removing information about Aboriginal cultures. As such, I can only see their repeated blanking of information and heavy-handed diatribes on 'political activism on Wikipedia' as bad-faith editing. Poketama (talk) 05:18, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- You're doing exactly the same thing that you're accusing other people of: you're unable to see past your own strongly-held, relatively fringe opinions and it's twisting your approach to Wikipedia content. I don't intend to relitigate the History Wars with you, but writing “the illiterate Stone Age culture of Aboriginal Australians” without any hint of irony" demonstrates that it's left neutrality so far behind that it's on a different planet. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:35, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm sorry? What part of that description of pre-European contact Australians do you think is inaccurate? The situation is that Aboriginal society in Australia had not developed writing and so could not record details of their culture, including place names. Consequently the only historical records we have are sourced from the colonisers who naturally imposed their own spelling and other linguistic inaccuracies in their records. --Pete (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- That you just wrote “the illiterate Stone Age culture of Aboriginal Australians” without any hint of irony says much more about you, how you’d like Wikipedia to read, and why you continue to cast aspersions on another editor than anything else you’ve written. Stop it. —Hobomok (talk) 00:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Māori were a sovereign nation and enforced their sovereignty by force, beating the strides off the best of the British Empire time and again. They outfought and outthought the Poms, not just beating the Redcoats but humiliating them. The battle of the Gate Pa is a good example. They arguably won the Māori Wars but lost the peace, not being part of global diplomacy. Contrasting the sophisticated Māori civilisation to the illiterate Stone Age culture of Aboriginal Australians at the time reveals the shortcomings of the latter in promoting and retaining their culture. Māori place names were well-known and well-recorded. The same can hardly be said for Australia where every aspect of Indigenous culture including place names was recorded through a lens of often faulty and culturally biased Anglo logs, journals, despatches, and proclamations. --Pete (talk) 20:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- There is also the role of the Treaty of Waitangi and associated history. Gusfriend (talk) 07:28, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- The example of New Zealand has been raised here several times. I suggest that comparison is flawed. The Māori population of NZ is much larger than the Aboriginal population in Australia. There is one language, te reo Māori, and a large part, in fact most, of the NZ population speaks it to some extent. The NZ national anthem is often sung in English and Māori. None of these things are true in Australia. I suggest that using phrases like, "<insert city/town name here> is situated on the traditional lands of the <insert clan/tribe name here> people" would a) be easier to source reliably; b) be in line with customary descriptions in the media; c) consequently find much more acceptance among editors and readers. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:00, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
- My point is that the Māori had a sophisticated civilisation before European contact. They had ocean-crossing technology, cities, national communication systems and unified language, religion, and administrative systems. On European contact they quickly embraced the more advanced technology available to them, most notably firearms and literacy. Read the article. The pre-European Aboriginal Australian culture was nowhere near as advanced, lacking cities - and hence civilisation - metal-working technology in any form - hence Stone Age, as opposed to Bronze Age or Iron Age - and most notably for the purposes of this discussion, reading or writing ability. The Māori were quick to embrace this ability from the Europeans and recorded their culture and history but this did not happen in Australia. A great tragedy because I am sure that the first Australians had a great deal worth recording but the plain fact is that we don't have any Indigenous records from the days of European colonisation and hence our sources are all European and thus culturally biased and prejudiced. All of this is documented and sourced in a magnificent and comprehensive resource called Wikipedia. I am sorry if using Wikipedia to mine knowledge is seen as a negative thing, but there it is. If you don't like facts, then say so, and remove yourself from the project. --Pete (talk) 06:23, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe mine it a bit further and you would see that the three age system has been heavily criticised and that the notion of 'advancement' that you are pushing is Eurocentric and out-dated. The Logical Positivist (talk) 11:08, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Well, colour me outdated. I'm in the third year of my eighth decade. Ask James Cook why he took possession of Australia in the name of the British Government and not New Zealand. Ask Joseph Banks why he recommended Botany Bay over the Bay of Plenty as the place for a settlement. --Pete (talk) 11:45, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Pete, I have to also respond to the ‘illiterate stone age’ stereotype. That is a poor choice of words and extremely offensive, it’s something that still is used against us as a slur. It’s also rooted in flawed understandings of our cultures - just because something doesn’t fit a western perspective of expectations or development timelines doesn’t mean it’s illiterate or stone age, it just means it’s different to the western perspective and probably needs to be judged in a different way. Depending on context, I’d argue that my ancestors invented technology that the western world is only just catching up to now. For example, given the way western technology has only recently gotten to things like advanced flight mechanics (think asymmetrical lift and Boomerangs) and thermoplastic resin (think Spinifex Resin), they were ahead of the western world in that regard.
- To suggest that there were no cities is also flawed and viewed from a westernised perspective when it shouldn’t be - what is a city? It is a localised society with structures, rules, customs and various other characteristics - all of those existed prior to the arrival of the First Fleet. There are rules that have been passed down orally on what we can and can’t do, how we interact with others, how to respect country and so on.
- Regarding the illiterate & lack of records claims, to talk about reading and writing ability as though it must use a text language format is again, flawed through a western perspective. There are recordings, many have been forcibly silenced, destroyed or locked away in museum storage rooms, but hopefully this can give you something to think about, and try not to think about it in a western perspective: A picture tells a thousand words, you can read and write through a picture (and other methods). Songs, dance and art are to us, as text is to you. GadigalGuy (talk) 15:06, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that you see things in an "us and them" light. None of us are any more than the descendants of those who were around at the time the Europeans arrived permanently. The prior residents had no metal working or mining skills and that's Stone Age technology in my book. Civilisation is the culture of cities supported by agriculture and producing specialists who didn't have to hunt around for their food but instead traded their skills for sustenance. There was nothing like a city-based society in Australia, apart from the Torres Strait Islanders. With cities comes administration and the need for recordkeeping. Every city-based culture developed written language. Aboriginal Australians had nothing like this, although there is evidence of prodigious feats of memory via the Songlines. That's oral history right there and the stories passed down had strong practical cultural purposes.
- Well, colour me outdated. I'm in the third year of my eighth decade. Ask James Cook why he took possession of Australia in the name of the British Government and not New Zealand. Ask Joseph Banks why he recommended Botany Bay over the Bay of Plenty as the place for a settlement. --Pete (talk) 11:45, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Maybe mine it a bit further and you would see that the three age system has been heavily criticised and that the notion of 'advancement' that you are pushing is Eurocentric and out-dated. The Logical Positivist (talk) 11:08, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- My point is that the Māori had a sophisticated civilisation before European contact. They had ocean-crossing technology, cities, national communication systems and unified language, religion, and administrative systems. On European contact they quickly embraced the more advanced technology available to them, most notably firearms and literacy. Read the article. The pre-European Aboriginal Australian culture was nowhere near as advanced, lacking cities - and hence civilisation - metal-working technology in any form - hence Stone Age, as opposed to Bronze Age or Iron Age - and most notably for the purposes of this discussion, reading or writing ability. The Māori were quick to embrace this ability from the Europeans and recorded their culture and history but this did not happen in Australia. A great tragedy because I am sure that the first Australians had a great deal worth recording but the plain fact is that we don't have any Indigenous records from the days of European colonisation and hence our sources are all European and thus culturally biased and prejudiced. All of this is documented and sourced in a magnificent and comprehensive resource called Wikipedia. I am sorry if using Wikipedia to mine knowledge is seen as a negative thing, but there it is. If you don't like facts, then say so, and remove yourself from the project. --Pete (talk) 06:23, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know why you, writing in the English-language Wikipedia in English, through a global computer network, to add to the electronic transmission of knowledge in real time, talk about a "western perspective" as if it is something outrageously foreign to you. I've been in Australia longer than you have and I suggest that neither of us are our great-great-grandparents or live lives more than marginally comparable to them. Let's stick to reality, please. If you think that I'm somehow accusing you of being illiterate, without access to metal, or the amazing benefits of modern civilisation such as McDonalds or Twitter, then let me say that this is not in my mind at all. --Pete (talk) 03:05, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- 'Every city-based culture developed written language'. No. Incas. The Mississippians. Just two examples of many. - ҉ Randwicked ҉ 10:50, 7 July 2022 (UTC
- I don't know why you, writing in the English-language Wikipedia in English, through a global computer network, to add to the electronic transmission of knowledge in real time, talk about a "western perspective" as if it is something outrageously foreign to you. I've been in Australia longer than you have and I suggest that neither of us are our great-great-grandparents or live lives more than marginally comparable to them. Let's stick to reality, please. If you think that I'm somehow accusing you of being illiterate, without access to metal, or the amazing benefits of modern civilisation such as McDonalds or Twitter, then let me say that this is not in my mind at all. --Pete (talk) 03:05, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- My comments weren’t something that needed a rebuttal Pete, sometimes it is better to pause and absorb what other people are saying in order to gain an understanding that you otherwise wouldn’t have. Of course I see things through an ‘us and them’ perspective, because every single human on the planet is different, from different backgrounds, with different life experiences - we can not be anything but us and them. I’m also not suggesting that the ‘western perspective’ is foreign to me, quite the opposite, that Indigenous perspective is foreign to you, as it clearly is with the dismissal and rebuttal of how I and others see the world - and my hopes were that by providing some sort of food for thought, you’d take some time for reflection with the new perspectives in mind. Regarding your intention - Whether you had the intention or not, it is still hurtful to see that written about my culture, my family, my identity. It falls straight into the whole issue with systemic racism, it is invisible to those who have never felt it. You’ve shown you have some level of interest in Indigenous Cultures, I’m sure there is so much you’d find interesting and really great - but you’ll miss a world of information and perspective until you see it through another lens. It’s like looking at a photo, sure we can see the image, but by just observing a photo we don’t see what the photographer sees through their lens, there is so much more behind the lens. GadigalGuy (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should look into Plotinus and see if that "every single human on the planet is different" view holds water. He was writing 1 700 years ago. Advaita goes back even further.
- My comments weren’t something that needed a rebuttal Pete, sometimes it is better to pause and absorb what other people are saying in order to gain an understanding that you otherwise wouldn’t have. Of course I see things through an ‘us and them’ perspective, because every single human on the planet is different, from different backgrounds, with different life experiences - we can not be anything but us and them. I’m also not suggesting that the ‘western perspective’ is foreign to me, quite the opposite, that Indigenous perspective is foreign to you, as it clearly is with the dismissal and rebuttal of how I and others see the world - and my hopes were that by providing some sort of food for thought, you’d take some time for reflection with the new perspectives in mind. Regarding your intention - Whether you had the intention or not, it is still hurtful to see that written about my culture, my family, my identity. It falls straight into the whole issue with systemic racism, it is invisible to those who have never felt it. You’ve shown you have some level of interest in Indigenous Cultures, I’m sure there is so much you’d find interesting and really great - but you’ll miss a world of information and perspective until you see it through another lens. It’s like looking at a photo, sure we can see the image, but by just observing a photo we don’t see what the photographer sees through their lens, there is so much more behind the lens. GadigalGuy (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- My point, if you didn't get it, is that none of us are our great-grandparents. None of my living relatives are vikings, for example. It's all history nowadays. We're moving out of the pertinent discussion now. Think about how we can improve Wikipedia coverage of specilist topics, perhaps? --22:13, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- A subtle point here. I rarely add any content on Indigenous matters. I leave that to those who have an interest and (presumably) knowledge and resources and time for research. However, the point of this discussion is not my contributions - or lack of them - it is my concerns over sustained contributions made by a single purpose editor against established Wikiprocedure resulting in inaccurate, misleading, and poorly sourced content. Banks didn't use Indigenous placenames in any official correspondence - he didn't know any - and a colonial Premier of Tasmania was notable for being a head of government, not for being a mass murderer. Pardon me if I seek to remove inaccurate content from our encyclopaedia. --Pete (talk) 06:52, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Poketama has addressed these issues already and there does not seem to be any reason to interpret their actions as intentional wrongdoing. I am unclear what value there is in continuing to litigate that and questions about the notability of Whyte being a mass-murderer is surely better dealt with on the relevant talk page. The Logical Positivist (talk) 11:18, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- If it's not intentional wrongdoing, then this raises the question of competence. Poketama's single-minded zeal needs to be tempered by consideration of Wikiprocess. WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE as noted in this thread title. We don't just write whatever we think is a fair thing. We have rules and procedures that work to advance the project precisely because in the early days people did write whatever they thought was a fair thing. The system works and should be used. --Pete (talk) 11:54, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Seems like, as The Logical Positivist noted, that it's working pretty well, and that further questions belong on the article talk page, which is exactly what the "system" suggests for resolving specific article content questions. The Drover's Wife (talk) 14:47, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you miss the point. A content issue on one article is best dealt with there. Behavioural issues are more effectively dealt with in a central forum. Giving undue prominence to one little-known aspect of one colonial politician's life is neither here nor there. But we are dealing with a bigger issue, one involving the same editor, who wishes the lead sentence of thousands of articles to include little-known information ahead of everything else. What's more imnportant and useful to someone seeking information about an Australian town? Its place in geography, government, industry and society, or its supposed name in an ancient language few speak? If it were up to Poketama, every Australian place would have a string of marginally relevant information ahead of, bolded, and mandated before anything that our users would actually turn to the article to discover. One of many examples here. I don't see this information as unimportant and it should be included in an appropriate location within the article, but is it more important than everything else? What does he think we are doing here? Reporting useful information in an online encyclopaedia, or fighting some sort of cultural and political battle? --Pete (talk) 10:03, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you really need to stop with this now. The issue has been discussed and addressed. What outcome are you trying to achieve by continuing to go on about this? If you think there is a serious issue seek an administrator intervention or something, but continuing to complain about a single editor on this notice board seems pretty inappropriate. The Logical Positivist (talk) 14:18, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you miss the point. A content issue on one article is best dealt with there. Behavioural issues are more effectively dealt with in a central forum. Giving undue prominence to one little-known aspect of one colonial politician's life is neither here nor there. But we are dealing with a bigger issue, one involving the same editor, who wishes the lead sentence of thousands of articles to include little-known information ahead of everything else. What's more imnportant and useful to someone seeking information about an Australian town? Its place in geography, government, industry and society, or its supposed name in an ancient language few speak? If it were up to Poketama, every Australian place would have a string of marginally relevant information ahead of, bolded, and mandated before anything that our users would actually turn to the article to discover. One of many examples here. I don't see this information as unimportant and it should be included in an appropriate location within the article, but is it more important than everything else? What does he think we are doing here? Reporting useful information in an online encyclopaedia, or fighting some sort of cultural and political battle? --Pete (talk) 10:03, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Seems like, as The Logical Positivist noted, that it's working pretty well, and that further questions belong on the article talk page, which is exactly what the "system" suggests for resolving specific article content questions. The Drover's Wife (talk) 14:47, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- If it's not intentional wrongdoing, then this raises the question of competence. Poketama's single-minded zeal needs to be tempered by consideration of Wikiprocess. WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE as noted in this thread title. We don't just write whatever we think is a fair thing. We have rules and procedures that work to advance the project precisely because in the early days people did write whatever they thought was a fair thing. The system works and should be used. --Pete (talk) 11:54, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Poketama has addressed these issues already and there does not seem to be any reason to interpret their actions as intentional wrongdoing. I am unclear what value there is in continuing to litigate that and questions about the notability of Whyte being a mass-murderer is surely better dealt with on the relevant talk page. The Logical Positivist (talk) 11:18, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- A subtle point here. I rarely add any content on Indigenous matters. I leave that to those who have an interest and (presumably) knowledge and resources and time for research. However, the point of this discussion is not my contributions - or lack of them - it is my concerns over sustained contributions made by a single purpose editor against established Wikiprocedure resulting in inaccurate, misleading, and poorly sourced content. Banks didn't use Indigenous placenames in any official correspondence - he didn't know any - and a colonial Premier of Tasmania was notable for being a head of government, not for being a mass murderer. Pardon me if I seek to remove inaccurate content from our encyclopaedia. --Pete (talk) 06:52, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
What a politician has done (good or bad), shouldn't be in the lead of his bio. Save that for the body of the bio. I mean, would we have in Ted Kennedy's intro, that he left the scene of an accident, which 'might have' cost the life of another person? GoodDay (talk) 14:50, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Resolution
Ok wow look how long this page is. I appreciate everyone who has chipped in, I'd like to resolve this now. Please be straight to the point in what you want.
I apologise for the factual error on the Banks quote and I'll do my best to make sure that everything that I write follows WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE which I have read over again. I also will branch out my editing to not give the appearance of being a biased editor, though I don't accept that label - given that WP:SPA notes that not all editors who focus on specific areas are biased or breaking rules. You'll note that I've touched up some botany pages and will due more work in that area.
In return please keep content discussions to article talk pages and assume good faith in the future, which I will do for you as well. If we can't agree I don't see anything else to do but to go to ANI, which will be annoying for everyone.
Is there anything else I can do for you Pete? Poketama (talk) 16:59, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. Sounds like you are on the right path. I'll see if I can join you there. I'm a lomng way from perfect in my behaviour. --Pete (talk) 22:16, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
It's hard to find citations to Australian institutions that do good stuff. Umbrella Entertainment did terrific work on restoring old Oz films and releasing specialty stuff but didn't rate any citations and the article got the chop. Now it's the Organ Historical Trust of Australia under the pump. Anyone able to assist? Doug butler (talk) 15:34, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Closed as keep. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:46, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Requested move 22 June 2022
Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board → Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' noticeboard – In most places on Wikipedia, there is no space between "notice" and "board", so this page might reasonably moved to a location that also has no space there. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 23:15, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know how to suppress the error, but this is the template I have to use and the talk page is a redirect. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 23:16, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Since active requested moves must take place in the Talk: namespace, this proposal has been transferred to WT:Australian Wikipedians' notice board. It can be transferred back to this page after it has been closed, and then the talk page can again be redirected if editors prefer it to be so. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 07:15, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Proposed re-scoping of Royal Commission articles
There is a requested move here that may be of interest to some editors on this page - a user is trying to broaden all the Australian Royal Commission lists to generalised articles about Royal Commissions in that jurisdiction. The Drover's Wife (talk) 02:27, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Announcement: Wikidata-based population module now available for Infobox Australian place
I am pleased to announce that a Lua module to retrieve the most recent population figures (such as the just-released 2021 Australian census) from Wikidata and display them in Infobox Australian place has been developed by User:MaiaCWilliams with assistance from User:Samwilson, User:99of9, User:Canley and User:Tenniscourtisland, funded by a grant from Wikimedia Australia. The module has recently been deployed in Template:Infobox Australian place, but does not override population values in that infobox, only retrieving the population from Wikidata where the population fields are empty or missing. To try it out, simply remove the pop, pop_year, and pop_footnotes fields from an locality, town or LGA's infobox, or even better (so it is clear the figure is from Wikidata), replace the population figure with a comment like this:
| pop = <!--leave blank to draw the latest automatically from Wikidata--> | pop_year = | pop_footnotes =
The module and its associated documentation can be found at Module:PopulationFromWikidata. The module is ready to use (and can be seen in action in examples such as Collingwood, Victoria, Cosmo Newbery (Yilka) and Roseville, New South Wales), but is a work-in-progress with several formatting and functionality improvements still to come.
Population data from the 2021 Census is being imported into Wikidata over the next few days, so if it hasn't been imported yet, the infobox will display the 2016 population.
The team welcomes any suggestions, bug reports, edge cases or feedback (positive or negative) at the module talk page, as well as ideas (or volunteers) to assist with the rollout. Canley (talk) 11:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- Amazing, works absolutely amazingly. Would love to see it rolled out automatically. Poketama (talk) 12:29, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- This will be a massive massive time saver. Once it's in a final form, I think it should be possible to look at ways to roll it out semi-automatically (I think it needs a human in the loop). In particular, we do want to preserve the 2016 census data (or whatever may be in the infobox) into the history section of the place article, so setting up scripts/gadgets to do this may take a little time. Please dont just overwrite the old census data in your enthusiasm to update to 2021 census. Kerry (talk) 01:41, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Kerry Raymond: regarding the historical data, I think we should figure out a good way to pull it from Wikidata as well. For example, it wouldn't be impossible to automatically generate a table or chart of population over time. That's different from the general prose about demographics etc. of course, which perhaps will always need to be hand-written. And yeah, I totally agree about keeping a human in the loop!
- There's also the whole topic of how to re-use references. I've been looking at that, and it seems that if a template provides a reference, and the article provides an exact duplicate, they're not merged (as they would be if both were defined within the article). So that sounds like a bug with Cite, maybe. I'll keep investigating... :-)
- —Sam Wilson 01:54, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think if we define some templates called something obvious like "AusCensus2021" which draw the data from Wikipedia, then we can generate the sentence structure we typically write in the lede, e.g. In the 2021 census, The locality of Whoop Whoop had a population of 5 people. With the usual links and citation. We can give the citation a unique and meaningful name, in case someone needs to reuse it elsewhere in the article. We could do the same thing for 2016 to accommodate saving the 2016 data into the History section. There is a small risk that the article is already reusing the existing 2016 citation for, say, a demographics section, but I think we can live with this. As you say, Wikipedia allows duplicate citation content; the only risk is clashes in the citation name, but a careful choice of citation name should minimise this (or we just don't name it). Kerry (talk) 02:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- How does it know which population figure to pull, given the multiple types of ABS district as well as towns of the same name? The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- well, we could manually add parameters for name and ABS type, but I am kinda hoping for a sprinkling of Wikidata fairydust that might make that unnecessary, but that's a question for the Wikidata elves among us. Kerry (talk) 06:06, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- It's based on the infobox's
|type=
parameter; there's a table at Module:PopulationFromWikidata#Step_2._Check_which_population_claims_match_the_Infobox_Australian_place_type_value that shows the mapping. We're going to work on some more explanations of the geography types and what they mean (probably adding to the 2021 Australian census article, because the geographies change over time). Sam Wilson 06:45, 7 July 2022 (UTC)- Why not just put a query in the footnotes field that draws all the ABS data into a chart to show changes over time. That way if people want it its presented in a consistent way across all articles and never needs to updated. Gnangarra 09:22, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is a good idea. Just be prepared for people to lose their shit when all the city populations revert to the smaller and older UCL figures instead of the oft quoted GCCSA or SUA ones. If I'm understanding how the parameters are being mapped. - ҉ Randwicked ҉ 10:30, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- How does it know which population figure to pull, given the multiple types of ABS district as well as towns of the same name? The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- I think if we define some templates called something obvious like "AusCensus2021" which draw the data from Wikipedia, then we can generate the sentence structure we typically write in the lede, e.g. In the 2021 census, The locality of Whoop Whoop had a population of 5 people. With the usual links and citation. We can give the citation a unique and meaningful name, in case someone needs to reuse it elsewhere in the article. We could do the same thing for 2016 to accommodate saving the 2016 data into the History section. There is a small risk that the article is already reusing the existing 2016 citation for, say, a demographics section, but I think we can live with this. As you say, Wikipedia allows duplicate citation content; the only risk is clashes in the citation name, but a careful choice of citation name should minimise this (or we just don't name it). Kerry (talk) 02:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- This will be a massive massive time saver. Once it's in a final form, I think it should be possible to look at ways to roll it out semi-automatically (I think it needs a human in the loop). In particular, we do want to preserve the 2016 census data (or whatever may be in the infobox) into the history section of the place article, so setting up scripts/gadgets to do this may take a little time. Please dont just overwrite the old census data in your enthusiasm to update to 2021 census. Kerry (talk) 01:41, 1 July 2022 (UTC)