Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 48) (bot |
Mitch Ames (talk | contribs) |
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:::[[User:Mitch Ames|Mitch Ames]] ([[User talk:Mitch Ames|talk]]) 02:01, 5 December 2016 (UTC) |
:::[[User:Mitch Ames|Mitch Ames]] ([[User talk:Mitch Ames|talk]]) 02:01, 5 December 2016 (UTC) |
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::::I fail to see why EB becomes part of the equation.. all your material above is derivative, as is the article in question, the problem is there is no evidence that the term(s) are in actual fact in common usage or understanding or wide usage to actually allow for inclusion as an entry in this encyclopedia. The article (wheatbelt australia) clings to 2 websites as sufficient proof. The reality is over time WA has been the main place for the term usage and its inclusion into books, place names etc... The victorian and south australian and australian terms are not widespread or understood or known, and should be subsumed, imho into an article that ratifies the fact of limited usage - they otherwise come over as [[WP:UNDUE]] emphasis on an exception to establish a usage, where that is probably not a good way to go [[User:JarrahTree|JarrahTree]] 02:29, 5 December 2016 (UTC) |
::::I fail to see why EB becomes part of the equation.. all your material above is derivative, as is the article in question, the problem is there is no evidence that the term(s) are in actual fact in common usage or understanding or wide usage to actually allow for inclusion as an entry in this encyclopedia. The article (wheatbelt australia) clings to 2 websites as sufficient proof. The reality is over time WA has been the main place for the term usage and its inclusion into books, place names etc... The victorian and south australian and australian terms are not widespread or understood or known, and should be subsumed, imho into an article that ratifies the fact of limited usage - they otherwise come over as [[WP:UNDUE]] emphasis on an exception to establish a usage, where that is probably not a good way to go [[User:JarrahTree|JarrahTree]] 02:29, 5 December 2016 (UTC) |
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:::::{{tq|I fail to see why EB becomes part of the equation..}} {{mdash}} Encyclopædia Britannica (current/online) is an example of a current [[WP:RS|reliable source]] that uses the term "wheat belt" for other parts of Australia. (I don't think that the space between the words is significant in this context; if you do, please say so.) |
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:::::{{tq|all your material above is derivative}} {{mdash}} The appropriate term here is ''[[WP:SECONDARY|secondary source]]'', as in "[[WP:SECONDARY|Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources]]". |
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:::::{{tq|The article (wheatbelt australia) ... }} {{mdash}} The article is "[[Wheatbelt (Australia)]]" with a [[WP:ATDAB|parenthetical disambiguator]], so - as I explained - I don't think references to the the exact term "Australian wheatbelt" are strictly necessary, hence my citing of [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] (older physical books, not just "recent web inventions") that use the term "wheatbelt" in contexts that cover the whole country, not just WA. |
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:::::You asked for evidence that "'Australian wheatbelt' term has been used over time" and I [http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q-field0=&q-type0=phrase&q-term0=Australian+wheatbelt&q-field1=&q-type1=not&q-term1=Western&q-field2=&q-type2=not&q-term2=West&q-field3=&q-type3=not&q-term3=South gave you some]. |
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:::::I'm not saying that the article is perfect as it is, and I'm not disagreeing that ''wheatbelt'' might more commonly refer to WA. However I don't think that WA can lay exclusive claim to the term. Feel free to update the article if you think it appropriate, just be sure to cite references that support your new wording and/or do not directly contradict the above-mentioned reliable sources. [[User:Mitch Ames|Mitch Ames]] ([[User talk:Mitch Ames|talk]]) 03:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC) |
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City of Bankstown template
Given that City of Bankstown has now merged to become Canterbury-Bankstown Council this template will need to be updated. Template:City of Bankstown topics. LibStar (talk) 08:30, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Logo Change
I think we should change the logo of WP:AUSTRALIA. This was previously discussed here. The final vote was 2-2 and I think we should discuss it again and see if we can come to a conclusion. Catmando999 Check out his talk page! 00:57, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose changing the logo. There's nothing wrong with it, and nothing to gain by changing it. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:56, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose no reason provided, no inadequacies in current logo demonstrated, pointless distraction. - Shiftchange (talk) 04:30, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose Completely agree with both Mitch Ames and Shiftchange. --AussieLegend (✉) 18:34, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose I was not going to comment as I have nothing new to add, but since a previous discussion is described as a vote and the results tallied, I pile on the bandwagon as I also see no reason to change. "If it's not broke, don't fix it". --Scott Davis Talk 12:08, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose Same as above. Hughesdarren (talk) 12:23, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose The logo seems fine as is, as are the points of others who have come here JarrahTree 14:16, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Australian agencies are confusing
Can someone do some work on Australian Classification Board and Australian Classification Review Board. I was also told by とある白い猫 that some of the content may need to be split into a third article, Classification of media in Australia. I would rather someone familiar with these Australian agencies work on this rather than someone like me, who's completely unfamiliar with them. (I'm American, by the way.) — Gestrid (talk) 22:00, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- My suggestion is this (just to clarify and verify). You have two different "sister" agencies. Each should have their separate article for the separate history (who run the office, how much funding it got and other such bureaucratic operation). And a third article to discuss their joint work classifying games, movies and whatever else they classify. Both articles have content (#Controversies, #Classification decisions) on this so they would be merged to this third article where issues are more prominently discussed with the role of each agency since I expect there will be some overlap. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 11:47, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
drum line program to kill sharks
Australian editors' opinions are requested at Talk:Queensland#drum line program to kill sharks. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:00, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
- I think it would be better suited on Drum lines. Although if Queensland was the first jurisdiction in the world to deploy them it may be of historical significance. - Shiftchange (talk) 13:53, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
- I've taken the liberty of copying Shiftchange's comment to Talk:Queensland#drum line program to kill sharks, so that the discussion is all in one place.
- Please add any further comments to Talk:Queensland#drum line program to kill sharks rather than here. Mitch Ames (talk) 22:59, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
Courthouse or Court House
What's the consensus on the correct form in "Australian English"? I notice we have both in use in article titles. I usually write it as 2 words myself, but I have no idea for why I do. The Queensland Heritage Register uses both forms (which is what triggers my question). Or doesn't it matter? Kerry (talk) 14:30, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- The Macquarie Dictionary only lists "courthouse" with no alternative spelling, which is odd because "court house" is pretty common as a proper noun. I'd suggest "court building" as a generic descriptor. Hack (talk) 14:46, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, we should always use "courthouse" for the common noun. In proper nouns we could look for an official version in each case. For instance, Berrima Court House. This can get tricky where there is no consistency in the sources, e.g., the WA Heritage Council describes the "Albany Courthouse", while the Royal Association of Justices WA chooses "Albany Court House" (but "Bunbury Courthouse", "Mandurah Courthouse", etc! But perhaps the truest "official" source is the administering authority, the Attorney General's Dept. My search there showed that their consistent preference is for "Albany Courthouse", etc This option provides consistency within WA while allowing other states to differ. Note, however, that a historic (only) building may be administered by a heritage authority which may have settled on "Court House", and we should go along with that. Bjenks (talk) 02:10, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- Queensland Supreme Court website is using "courthouse". I'm thinking this is the best way to go, given the Macquarie Dictionary support. Not that I am going to rush out and rename everything, but incrementally I'll try to move towards standardising "courthouse". Kerry (talk) 09:06, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- No worries with the common noun—"courthouse" is also endorsed by the Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors. (In their 1965 edn, the first I bought, they prescribed "court-house".) But that does not carry over to proper nouns which are spelled according to local usage and/or documentation. Bjenks (talk) 09:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- Queensland Supreme Court website is using "courthouse". I'm thinking this is the best way to go, given the Macquarie Dictionary support. Not that I am going to rush out and rename everything, but incrementally I'll try to move towards standardising "courthouse". Kerry (talk) 09:06, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, we should always use "courthouse" for the common noun. In proper nouns we could look for an official version in each case. For instance, Berrima Court House. This can get tricky where there is no consistency in the sources, e.g., the WA Heritage Council describes the "Albany Courthouse", while the Royal Association of Justices WA chooses "Albany Court House" (but "Bunbury Courthouse", "Mandurah Courthouse", etc! But perhaps the truest "official" source is the administering authority, the Attorney General's Dept. My search there showed that their consistent preference is for "Albany Courthouse", etc This option provides consistency within WA while allowing other states to differ. Note, however, that a historic (only) building may be administered by a heritage authority which may have settled on "Court House", and we should go along with that. Bjenks (talk) 02:10, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Proposed deletion of Just Jeans
The article Just Jeans has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
- unreferenced and non-notable
While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}}
notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.
Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}}
will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. 103.6.159.83 (talk) 17:16, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
creeping wheatbelt
Interesting, the notion of an Australian wheatbelt exists apparently, as well as the belts in states other than WA.
A recently updated disambiguation page - Wheatbelt claims from usage in articles: -
- SA near Kyancutta
- Vic near Sea Lake
and for the continent, a whole rainfall range area has been recently identified at Wheatbelt_(Australia), utilising two online sources of 'authority'. The plot further thickens when there is evidence that at Trove (http://trove.nla.gov.au/) that the term for the Australian wheatbelt, if it exists in name on the web, simply has never been referred to as such, at least not in a general search.
So what to do? I reserve my doubts as to the veracity of the usage of the term in the SA and Vic articles, and the usage of the term at the new australian generic article. I would much prefer to see other informed australian editors offer their understanding of where the term starts and and ends, and where the body of evidence shows and allows for an encyclopedia article and title as such in a wide and general usage.
A similar looseness of usage can be found with the word Nullarbor - where imagination and the propensity to make 6 out of 2 + 2, has the nullarbor starting at Norseman and ending at Port Augusta, whereas in fact, the real nullarbor is a lot more confined in its actual reach. In the end I suppose it is whether fellow editors want to allow ranges of things from picked sources, to be allowed in an online encyclopedia, or we stick to the general term as it has been used in time to be understood as what it is generally accepted. JarrahTree 23:50, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
- Writing as a South Australian with an opinion, I don't think I hear the term "wheatbelt" often enough to consider that it is in common use, but I wouldn't claim I have never heard it, either. I would imagine it is a band across the state south of Goyder's Line, but I wouldn't have any idea how wide it could be considered to be. South Australians would never consider the Nullarbor extends east of Ceduna nor as far north as the APY Lands, but otherwise, there is not often a need to be much more precise in common use anyway. --Scott Davis Talk 10:50, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
- Followup thought - I would read an article on Wheatbelt (South Australia) to see what it was defined as, as I don't think there is a clear definition (and I'd expect it to be far larger than just near Kyancutta), but I was surprised there wasn't a meaningful article at APY Lands or at least a redirect to a geography or anthropology/sociology article rather than the legislation article I piped to above. --Scott Davis Talk 11:19, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
- Because I wanted to see others comments - rather than pre-judge what I suspect to be the equivalent of a hoax article - I would like to challenge any editor to find anything on trove that specifically refers to the Victorian or South Australian wheatbelt in either a book or journal article JarrahTree 11:35, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
- Both http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=%22Victorian+wheatbelt%22 and http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=%22South+Australian+wheatbelt%22 return multiple entries (in books, newspapers, journals, archived websites) for me. If they really don't return any results for you, let me know and I'll post a sample of the links. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:25, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
- On that basis they need to be added to something to clarify that the alternate usages exist as the general trend and bulk is for western australia - however the next challenge - more than just Vic or SA - to show that 'Australian wheatbelt' term has been used over time and is not a recent web invention... go mitch ! JarrahTree 14:13, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
- The 2nd edition the Macquarie Dictionary, first published 1981, reprinted 1991, defines wheat belt as "that part of the country, usually a long, broad strip, in which conditions are ideal for growing wheat. The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary 6th ed, 2007, defines wheat belt as "a region where wheat is the chief agricultural product". There's no mention in either case of any specific state.
- Given that the article is Wheatbelt (Australia) with "Australia" being a disambiguator (cf Wheat belt (North America) ) rather than part of the proper name "Australian Wheatbelt", I don't think it is fair to insist that the specific term "Australian Wheatbelt" has been used, but http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q-field0=&q-type0=phrase&q-term0=Australian+wheatbelt&q-field1=&q-type1=not&q-term1=Western&q-field2=&q-type2=not&q-term2=West&q-field3=&q-type3=not&q-term3=South returns some hits, including newspaper articles from as early as 1924. The results may not be complete, because forcing the search to remove the words "Western", "West" and "South" (to exclude "Western Autralian wheatbelt" etc) may hide otherwise valid results, eg the perfectly valid (hypothetical) "While heading west across the Australian Wheatbelt".
- I do note, however that Encyclopædia Britannica, both the 1986 printed version and the current online version, has two definitions for Wheat Belt:
- "principal crop-growing region of Western Australia", with no mention of the rest of Australia
- "the part of the North American Great Plains where wheat is the dominant crop"
- However Britannica's Australia article online does include "Wheat is the country’s leading grain crop and is grown in every state, with production concentrated in the wheat belts of the southeast and southwest", and the Teens version includes "... a [railroad] line connected Melbourne and Port Melbourne, and 1871, when the inland wheat belts were being developed". (The 1986 printed version of the Australia article does not appear to use the term "wheat belt" in the agricultural section - it says "Wheat is usually grown in the medium rainfall belt in all states ...".)
- Mitch Ames (talk) 02:01, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- I fail to see why EB becomes part of the equation.. all your material above is derivative, as is the article in question, the problem is there is no evidence that the term(s) are in actual fact in common usage or understanding or wide usage to actually allow for inclusion as an entry in this encyclopedia. The article (wheatbelt australia) clings to 2 websites as sufficient proof. The reality is over time WA has been the main place for the term usage and its inclusion into books, place names etc... The victorian and south australian and australian terms are not widespread or understood or known, and should be subsumed, imho into an article that ratifies the fact of limited usage - they otherwise come over as WP:UNDUE emphasis on an exception to establish a usage, where that is probably not a good way to go JarrahTree 02:29, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
I fail to see why EB becomes part of the equation..
— Encyclopædia Britannica (current/online) is an example of a current reliable source that uses the term "wheat belt" for other parts of Australia. (I don't think that the space between the words is significant in this context; if you do, please say so.)all your material above is derivative
— The appropriate term here is secondary source, as in "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources".The article (wheatbelt australia) ...
— The article is "Wheatbelt (Australia)" with a parenthetical disambiguator, so - as I explained - I don't think references to the the exact term "Australian wheatbelt" are strictly necessary, hence my citing of reliable sources (older physical books, not just "recent web inventions") that use the term "wheatbelt" in contexts that cover the whole country, not just WA.- You asked for evidence that "'Australian wheatbelt' term has been used over time" and I gave you some.
- I'm not saying that the article is perfect as it is, and I'm not disagreeing that wheatbelt might more commonly refer to WA. However I don't think that WA can lay exclusive claim to the term. Feel free to update the article if you think it appropriate, just be sure to cite references that support your new wording and/or do not directly contradict the above-mentioned reliable sources. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- I fail to see why EB becomes part of the equation.. all your material above is derivative, as is the article in question, the problem is there is no evidence that the term(s) are in actual fact in common usage or understanding or wide usage to actually allow for inclusion as an entry in this encyclopedia. The article (wheatbelt australia) clings to 2 websites as sufficient proof. The reality is over time WA has been the main place for the term usage and its inclusion into books, place names etc... The victorian and south australian and australian terms are not widespread or understood or known, and should be subsumed, imho into an article that ratifies the fact of limited usage - they otherwise come over as WP:UNDUE emphasis on an exception to establish a usage, where that is probably not a good way to go JarrahTree 02:29, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- Because I wanted to see others comments - rather than pre-judge what I suspect to be the equivalent of a hoax article - I would like to challenge any editor to find anything on trove that specifically refers to the Victorian or South Australian wheatbelt in either a book or journal article JarrahTree 11:35, 4 December 2016 (UTC)