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*'''Speedy keep''' Why are admins so quick to delete articles? Anything is notable, it's a basic concept of sourcing. Please, if you are unable to find sources, that does not mean they do not exist, that is just silly. They might be hard to find, and in this article they probably will be hard to find, however I can't sit here and believe nobody has ever written anything about this piece of software. I say keep, and review in 2 weeks. That will give the author and other editors enough time to write the article in a neutral manner, remove most of the citations of the products own website, and do a good comparison, history, and user statistics sections. [[User:68.143.88.2|68.143.88.2]] 15:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Speedy keep''' Why are admins so quick to delete articles? Anything is notable, it's a basic concept of sourcing. Please, if you are unable to find sources, that does not mean they do not exist, that is just silly. They might be hard to find, and in this article they probably will be hard to find, however I can't sit here and believe nobody has ever written anything about this piece of software. I say keep, and review in 2 weeks. That will give the author and other editors enough time to write the article in a neutral manner, remove most of the citations of the products own website, and do a good comparison, history, and user statistics sections. [[User:68.143.88.2|68.143.88.2]] 15:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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**'''Comment'''. Not everything is notable; your neighbor's dog doesn't deserve a Wikipedia article. What would distinguish this software is not a better article; it would be multiple ''reliable'' sources, independent of the subject, that have covered this software. I'll agree that there may be sources that I wasn't able to find, but the fact that this isn't listed in two major library research databases (including EBSCOhost's information technology file) suggests an uphill battle to locate them. <small>(Incidentally, why would a truly notable WEB content management package NOT have sources that can be located online? Where would the sources BE if not on the Internet? --[[User:Darkwind|Darkwind]] ([[User talk:Darkwind|talk]])) </small> Per [[WP:V]], the burden is on the article's contributor(s) to find the source, not the person/people who suggest removing the article. Even so, I made an effort in [[WP:AGF|good faith]] to locate something to verify the content of the article, and failed to find anything ''reliable''. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASubdreamer&diff=157362124&oldid=157344609 my comment] on the article's talk page for additional details. --[[User:Darkwind|Darkwind]] ([[User talk:Darkwind|talk]]) 17:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
**'''Comment'''. Not everything is notable; your neighbor's dog doesn't deserve a Wikipedia article. What would distinguish this software is not a better article; it would be multiple ''reliable'' sources, independent of the subject, that have covered this software. I'll agree that there may be sources that I wasn't able to find, but the fact that this isn't listed in two major library research databases (including EBSCOhost's information technology file) suggests an uphill battle to locate them. <small>(Incidentally, why would a truly notable WEB content management package NOT have sources that can be located online? Where would the sources BE if not on the Internet? --[[User:Darkwind|Darkwind]] ([[User talk:Darkwind|talk]])) </small> Per [[WP:V]], the burden is on the article's contributor(s) to find the source, not the person/people who suggest removing the article. Even so, I made an effort in [[WP:AGF|good faith]] to locate something to verify the content of the article, and failed to find anything ''reliable''. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASubdreamer&diff=157362124&oldid=157344609 my comment] on the article's talk page for additional details. --[[User:Darkwind|Darkwind]] ([[User talk:Darkwind|talk]]) 17:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC) |
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**'''comment''' I agree, you did make a good faith effort. I apologize if I sounded like I was accusing you of being too quick to delete, that wasn't my intent, and I could have selected more effective wording. You are making the right call about the speedy deletion of this article, 100%. What I was trying to suggest is that many good articles start just like this one has, and if you would simply add the article on your watch list and give the author and other possible editors even 7 days with it, I personally think with some hard work it will turn out to be a good article. Anything takes time, especially when the English Wikipedia has almost 2 million articles already, in the near future I can foresee "slim pickins" in the new article creation segment. |
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'''Keep...'''for 1 week and re-evaluate. At the end of that week, delete if no 3rd party, neutral, note worthly enhancing progress has been made. <b><font face="Arial" color="1F860E">[[User:DigitalNinja|Digital]]</font><font color="20038A"><sup>[[User:DigitalNinja|Ninja]]</sup></font></b> 03:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:01, 13 September 2007
Subdreamer
- Subdreamer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
A content management system, just like all the others. No evidence of widespread use or significance. Article was started by a single-purpose account but has attracted some edits by other interested editors; these have not remedied a fundamental paucity of sources and a lack of demonstration of notability. Guy (Help!) 08:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Please read the log a bit more carefully. I recreated this page on 5 September, it was deleted due to its prior history (i.e. spam) but I got it reinstated. The deleting admin said it was an error on his part to delete it. All prior history is irrelevant because the original content no longer exists and none of the original contributors are adding to the article - therefore our motives are the same as on any other Wikipedia article.
- Please also read Talk:Subdreamer. I find it extremely frustrating that people keep flagging this page for deletion. How is it supposed to grow into a better article if you don't give it a chance?
- All of my arguments on the Talk page still stand. Please do not delete this, I already got it reinstated once. JamminBen 09:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Strong and Speedy Keep I restored this deleted article after a discussion, allowing JamminBen to work on the article. Jmlk17 10:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Note There was no discussion, in which other people than the contributor and User:Jmlk17 participated. I wouldn't have nominated for deletion yet, probably would have been best to wait a bit after the DRV to see if the article was improved, however it is unacceptable in it's current state, fails WP:VERIFY, WP:SPAM (14 links to the website in such a short page, come on). Personally I couldn't see any real proof of notability. I hope this AfD won't be speedy closed, or that would mean only User:Jmlk17 would have a say on the deletion (no original AfDs: page was speedy deleted, also the DRV was only open for 45 minutes Wp:drv#Subdreamer_.28closed.29). The page was undeleted, unsalted 21 minutes after having been tagged, so I think the AfD should stay open to have more views. My opinion for the moment is Keep to allow for improvement, but relist if no proof of notability if given. Jackaranga 10:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- If possible avoid phrases such as It is a "powerful yet simple program", by the way. Jackaranga 10:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Reply OK, for starters I have removed the phrase you mentioned. I can remove some or all of the 14 links you mentioned, I have no issue with that, but where else do you get sources from a list of features besides the official website? If I take them out and someone adds a citation needed tag, it's just going to go round in circles.
- Also, if this article is not worthy, why aren't some of the other similar articles being raised here too, such as e107? The e107 article has quite a few similarities to the Subdreamer article, and that hasn't been flagged. JamminBen 12:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I left a message on your talk page to some policies JamminBen. Hope you read them, can't really discuss much here if you don't know about the basic ones. I'm not sure lists of features are encouraged either. There are loads of things on wikipedia that need deleting, I don't know if that article you mention is one, but such a comparison is rarely well greeted in an AfD discussion (see WP:WAX not an official policy). Jackaranga 12:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- OK, point taken. Thanks for the info, I will check it out. JamminBen 12:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I left a message on your talk page to some policies JamminBen. Hope you read them, can't really discuss much here if you don't know about the basic ones. I'm not sure lists of features are encouraged either. There are loads of things on wikipedia that need deleting, I don't know if that article you mention is one, but such a comparison is rarely well greeted in an AfD discussion (see WP:WAX not an official policy). Jackaranga 12:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- If possible avoid phrases such as It is a "powerful yet simple program", by the way. Jackaranga 10:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Delete as non-notable and unsourced. There are no Google News hits (not even press releases), no reliable sources in a regular Google search, and no hits whatsoever in library databases ProQuest or EBSCOhost. More time isn't going to make sources appear. --Darkwind (talk) 10:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Speedy keep Why are admins so quick to delete articles? Anything is notable, it's a basic concept of sourcing. Please, if you are unable to find sources, that does not mean they do not exist, that is just silly. They might be hard to find, and in this article they probably will be hard to find, however I can't sit here and believe nobody has ever written anything about this piece of software. I say keep, and review in 2 weeks. That will give the author and other editors enough time to write the article in a neutral manner, remove most of the citations of the products own website, and do a good comparison, history, and user statistics sections. 68.143.88.2 15:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Comment. Not everything is notable; your neighbor's dog doesn't deserve a Wikipedia article. What would distinguish this software is not a better article; it would be multiple reliable sources, independent of the subject, that have covered this software. I'll agree that there may be sources that I wasn't able to find, but the fact that this isn't listed in two major library research databases (including EBSCOhost's information technology file) suggests an uphill battle to locate them. (Incidentally, why would a truly notable WEB content management package NOT have sources that can be located online? Where would the sources BE if not on the Internet? --Darkwind (talk)) Per WP:V, the burden is on the article's contributor(s) to find the source, not the person/people who suggest removing the article. Even so, I made an effort in good faith to locate something to verify the content of the article, and failed to find anything reliable. See my comment on the article's talk page for additional details. --Darkwind (talk) 17:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- comment I agree, you did make a good faith effort. I apologize if I sounded like I was accusing you of being too quick to delete, that wasn't my intent, and I could have selected more effective wording. You are making the right call about the speedy deletion of this article, 100%. What I was trying to suggest is that many good articles start just like this one has, and if you would simply add the article on your watch list and give the author and other possible editors even 7 days with it, I personally think with some hard work it will turn out to be a good article. Anything takes time, especially when the English Wikipedia has almost 2 million articles already, in the near future I can foresee "slim pickins" in the new article creation segment.
Keep...for 1 week and re-evaluate. At the end of that week, delete if no 3rd party, neutral, note worthly enhancing progress has been made. DigitalNinja 03:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)