Alalch Emis (talk | contribs) elaborate !vote |
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*'''Comment''': Thankyou for suggesting a top three references. As two seem to refer to the same Starship Troopers Marauder 3 role can someone consider replacing one of those with a source to a different role, possibly one for Sardar Udham perhaps? Thankyou. [[User:Djm-leighpark|Djm-leighpark]] ([[User talk:Djm-leighpark|talk]]) 09:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
*'''Comment''': Thankyou for suggesting a top three references. As two seem to refer to the same Starship Troopers Marauder 3 role can someone consider replacing one of those with a source to a different role, possibly one for Sardar Udham perhaps? Thankyou. [[User:Djm-leighpark|Djm-leighpark]] ([[User talk:Djm-leighpark|talk]]) 09:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::I'd be tempted to replace the Variety one for the [https://archive.md/CVj91 Times article]. I genuinely have nae idea why Supermann keeps touting sources that others have questioned the notability-determining of, while ignoring an article about his audiobook narration [[User:CiphriusKane|CiphriusKane]] ([[User talk:CiphriusKane|talk]]) 11:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
::I'd be tempted to replace the Variety one for the [https://archive.md/CVj91 Times article]. I genuinely have nae idea why Supermann keeps touting sources that others have questioned the notability-determining of, while ignoring an article about his audiobook narration [[User:CiphriusKane|CiphriusKane]] ([[User talk:CiphriusKane|talk]]) 11:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
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:::If you recall, there are folks who don't like the Times article either. Let's not forget that I didn't come up with the Times article in the history of the page. Another admin did. She encouraged me to push it back to mainspace after having been put back to draft. But she hasn't re-joined any of the conversation, saying it could go either way. I will try to follow up with her and see if she is willing to join now. She is the other editor I mentioned at the top of the DRV. Thanks. [[User:Supermann|Supermann]] ([[User talk:Supermann|talk]]) 16:01, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' per nom. Coverage not in-depth. Fails GNG and NACTOR. [[User:Alalch Emis|— Alalch Emis]] ([[User talk:Alalch Emis|talk]]) 10:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
*'''Delete''' per nom. Coverage not in-depth. Fails GNG and NACTOR. [[User:Alalch Emis|— Alalch Emis]] ([[User talk:Alalch Emis|talk]]) 10:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' Sources already noted above are sufficient to pass [[WP:GNG]]. --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 12:57, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
*'''Keep''' Sources already noted above are sufficient to pass [[WP:GNG]]. --[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 12:57, 17 November 2021 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:01, 17 November 2021
Stephen Hogan
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Does not appear to have had any really major roles; a lot of minor ones--mostly as figures in minor documentaries-- doesn't make for a notable actor. I don't see that any of the references discusses him in a substantial way--they're reviews of the minor films which, naturally mention him . DGG ( talk ) 02:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 02:50, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 02:51, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 02:51, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Hi. You have already met me in person here in NYC, so you know I can't be him in an Asian skin. So the "closely connected" accusation is FALSE to begin with. Happy to meet you again per Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC - Wikipedia. I submit to you that maybe he wasn't written extensively like other Irish actors such as Liam Neeson, Colin Farrell, Pierce Brosnan, etc. Maybe he was shy or hasn't attracted the attention. I don't know because I don't know the guy. But his long list of works speak to his Wikipedia:Notability (people) - Wikipedia regarding the two requirement laid down. This has been argued extensively on the talk page and on my talk page if not else where. There are sock puppets who have intentionally made disruptive editing that have been caught and blocked. Respectfully, I hope we could dedicate our time and energy on something more meaningful instead of this. Plus, correction on facts. He was never in any documentary film. Thanks for your time and consideration. Supermann (talk) 12:03, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- Delete a non-notable actor with minor roles. Fails WP:NACTOR as well general notable guidelines. Supermann did Hogan has played any lead role? If yes, please specify which one as I failed to find any significant role at the moment. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 14:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- It's right there in the article/filmography. Two film roles: Hogan played Sky Marshall Omar Anoke in science-fiction film Starship Troopers 3: Marauder...He played the lead role of Adam Smith in Iraq war drama Kingdom of Dust: The Beheading of Adam Smith. And then three lead roles in theaters: Mad as Hell (2018), Possible Worlds (2002), 1999 (Fast Food). You are not even reading the guidelines correctly. As I had said before, if you have difficulties accessing the world class libraries electronically, I am happy to upload the printout so that everybody can verify the theater roles are lead roles. But more importantly, you should just watch the movies that are widely accessible. I see you can speak Hindi. Have you seen his performance in Sardar Udham? I am not saying that is a lead role, but once you compare the aforementioned two with his role in Sardar, you can tell what a lead role is. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 14:28, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Making claims do not verify his roles. It needs reliable sources to support the claims. As I can see, the subject has played zero lead roles. The guidelines are very simple.
WP:NACTOR: 1. Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions;
or
2 Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment.
TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 14:37, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I don't know whether you can't count or I can't. Multiple is defined by many dictionary out there as "consisting of, including, or involving more than 1." For example, Multiple | Definition of Multiple by Merriam-Webster. Here he has 5. What I do know is you and I have ZERO. His long list of filmography shows he is prolific. You can say it's not unique/innovative, but the guideline is simple. It's either or. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 19:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Which source(s) indicate his lead roles? Please provide here so that we can better understand your sources. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 17:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Before we get bogged down in lead role, let's recall the guideline doesn't even use the term. The guideline instead uses "significant roles." So I am not gonna go down this rabbit hole, when the answers you seek are on the filmography by ctrl+f finding "lead role" - an imprecise term used by others. You at least should see those two aforementioned movies that are widely accessible. Supermann (talk) 19:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Please assume good faith. You are requested to provide sources here that indicates "significant roles" of the subject than making false claims regarding a WP:COI page. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 08:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Off-topic but you could be more respectful to @TheBirdsShedTears:, your comments are a little passive aggressive. deity 10:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- People with true good faith would not come on Wikipedia after 20+ days and start commenting on deletion. I have never done so in my 15 years here, because I hope to inform readers. You are not a Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry, are you? One notorious editor who touched on this topic has been caught. They are User:Dollyplay and User:Sleptlapps and User:Nyxaros2. I hope you are not one of them. Supermann (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well I was reading on Starship Troopers and went down a rabbit hole and it led me here. Just trying to help out man no need to get aggressive deity 14:19, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I hope you at least find time to watch the pentalogy of the Starship Troopers (franchise) before embarking on a deletionist path. Then I will truly believe you have good faith and are informed. Have a good weekend. Supermann (talk) 15:06, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- All the films after the first were pretty awful deity 01:01, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- In that case, why don't you become a writer/director and reboot the entire franchise? It's not like you could otherwise time travel and delete 2/3/4/5 from history. And cancelling Stephen Hogan would gratify you and make you feel less awful?? His rendition of the theme song in 3 has brought the militarism in 1 to an all time high level. For that reason, I want readers not to be deprived of the opportunities to read about the actor on wikipedia. We agree to disagree. Supermann (talk) 05:15, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well the article can't really be improved further. That's not "cancelling" it's literally Wikipedia guidelines deity 06:13, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- In that case, why don't you become a writer/director and reboot the entire franchise? It's not like you could otherwise time travel and delete 2/3/4/5 from history. And cancelling Stephen Hogan would gratify you and make you feel less awful?? His rendition of the theme song in 3 has brought the militarism in 1 to an all time high level. For that reason, I want readers not to be deprived of the opportunities to read about the actor on wikipedia. We agree to disagree. Supermann (talk) 05:15, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- All the films after the first were pretty awful deity 01:01, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I hope you at least find time to watch the pentalogy of the Starship Troopers (franchise) before embarking on a deletionist path. Then I will truly believe you have good faith and are informed. Have a good weekend. Supermann (talk) 15:06, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Well I was reading on Starship Troopers and went down a rabbit hole and it led me here. Just trying to help out man no need to get aggressive deity 14:19, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- People with true good faith would not come on Wikipedia after 20+ days and start commenting on deletion. I have never done so in my 15 years here, because I hope to inform readers. You are not a Wikipedia:Sockpuppetry, are you? One notorious editor who touched on this topic has been caught. They are User:Dollyplay and User:Sleptlapps and User:Nyxaros2. I hope you are not one of them. Supermann (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
- Before we get bogged down in lead role, let's recall the guideline doesn't even use the term. The guideline instead uses "significant roles." So I am not gonna go down this rabbit hole, when the answers you seek are on the filmography by ctrl+f finding "lead role" - an imprecise term used by others. You at least should see those two aforementioned movies that are widely accessible. Supermann (talk) 19:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
- Which source(s) indicate his lead roles? Please provide here so that we can better understand your sources. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 17:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisted per Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 November 6.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:53, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Clearly sourced, cited and significant roles are present on his page, I don't know if this was added after this discussion, but it seems to me that the original premise of the afd is moot. Hyperwave11 (talk) 11:14, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Weak delete The article was denied at AfC for lacking notability and the creator's repeated insistence upon submitting it without proper improvement. I've worked on this article, and much as I'd want to vote keep I feel like Hogan's marginal notability is just too little at the time being. Of the three strongest claims to "significant roles", the only one that would really convince me is Terror! Robespierre and the French Revolution. His role in Starship Troopers 3: Marauder is not a "lead role" as the creator or the article claims, but rather a bit part that gets few hits on Google, and the other strong claim, Kingdom of Dust: Beheading of Adam Smith, is currently at AfD. Also, the DublinLive article to me is a bit weak for contributing to notability as it's largely Hogan talking about his experience on set CiphriusKane (talk) 16:48, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- A "lead role" does not require you to be a production's main star. Hogan was the 4th named in the credits in Sardar Udham, and 3rd in Starship Troopers 3: Marauder. In Dracula: The Dark Prince he was listed 6th, but he played a bluelinked character that is usually a somewhat important role in Dracula films, and is one of the four roles mentioned here. He played Algernon Moncrieff (the second lead, I think) in The Importance of Being Earnest at the Abbey Theatre ("One of [Ireland's] leading cultural institutions"). That's in addition to his other roles which are smaller but there are a whole lot of them: recurring character (4 episodes) in Red Election, recurring role (6 episodes) in Kat & Alfie: Redwater, recurring roles (none more than a few episodes) in The Tudors and Injustice and Chosen and High Road. He also had other film roles and roles at top theatres but I don't know how big they were. Herostratus (talk) 03:18, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Malformed nomination, let's start over. The actual argument, apparently, to delete the article is that the article creator and main defender, User:Supermann, was paid for that. This hasn't been brought up here but was an important point at the deletion review. It's being argued now at the Conflict of Interest board. Apparently there's a lot of history around this. I don't know what the truth is here, but I do know we can't have fruitful discussions when the stated and actual reasons for the nom don't match. A nomination of "Marginal article, maybe acceptable on the merits, but looks to be quite possibly a work done for hire, so delete per WP:DENY" would have been a proper nom. We can't work blindfolded here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Herostratus (talk • contribs) 02:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- I dunno. Maybe the deal is something like "We senior editors know what's what here but we can't prove it, so just go about your business and let us work" but in that case just give us the real reasons so we can discuss them, or else do an administrative delete on the article or whatever and stop wasting our time.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Herostratus (talk • contribs) 02:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep of course, on the merits of the article alone, if WP:DENY is not in play. First of all (as deeper looking has found), the guy easily meets the WP:GNG, with:
- 1) A full-size paragraph reviewing his acting in a film.
The publication, Blueprintreview may not be super big but it has a decent article here.EDIT: I have no idea what that publication is; it's opinion, so reliability is not a factor. Notability would be tho, and I think that this source isn't useful for GNG purposes and should be ignored (its still usable in the article).
- 1) A full-size paragraph reviewing his acting in a film.
- 2) This is a full long interview in Dublin Live, which looks like a legit mag (willing to be instructed otherwise) about popular culture stuff. It is a Mirror property and the Mirror is a tabloid, so that could be discussed. (The interview is about a film Hogan is in, not about him in the sense of the names of his dogs etc, altho you do have bits like "I'm a bit of a history freak" etc.)
- 3) There is an article in The Times (the London Times) which has several paragraphs just on Hogan, an editor has averred (I can't access it cos paywall).
- Leaving aside the GNG, the guy is "notable" in the real world sense, in that he's had a long career, played a couple of title roles, played major roles (in the sense of being one of the 3-4-5 top players) in some other productions (which satisfied WP:NACTOR, including stage, and filled out his CV with many recurring roles on TV and film roles. Bottom line: I bet that we have never deleted an article on an actor with a CV like this (and that's just his film and TV credits, he has also had an extensive career at top British theaters). If so, rarely, and we probably shouldn't have. Herostratus (talk) 02:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- As a comment, the Blueprintreview website is not the same as the literary magazine with a Wikipedia article. Also, as brought up at another AfD also commenting that review, it does not meet the threshold of reliability as required of reviews establishing notability at WP:NFSOURCES due to the fact that it is impossible to establish the reliability of their publishing process by the fact that we cannot determine an editorial board or process. Generally, I don't have an opinion on the other sources or whether this article should be kept or deleted, but that specific source is not an adequate review nor is it the same as the literary mag. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 02:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Huh, you're right, sorry. As to the passage, it is opinion, so reliability doesn't enter into it, as we assume that critics are truthfully writing what they think. What matters here is notability: is blueprintreview and/or the article author (Justin Richards) notable enough for their opinion to be worthwhile? I don't know. Here is the author's (Justin Richards) work there, he's apparently done some legit film work. It's... slim. He's never published an article in a real magazine that I can find. He has reviewed a number of films, so he's not my Uncle Dwight, and blueprintreview has a stable of (amateur?) reviewers, so it's not some guy's blog... but still... for notability purposes I'd tend to not want to include that, thanks for pointing that out. Herostratus (talk) 03:56, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. Are you for deleting that literary magazine with a wikipedia article that doesn't cite any sources then? not to mention RS. I just hope we are doing things consistently across the board, instead of me being told WP:OTHERSTUFF again and again. Supermann (talk) 03:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion#Nominating_article(s) for deletion Here's the guide for starting an AfD CiphriusKane (talk) 05:07, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks @Herostratus: for your continuous support. Having anticipated your paywall access issues, as the creator of the article, I had solicited help from the community and they have graciously helped! Pls see discussion at Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2021_August_10 and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request/Archive_112 and the archived URL at Actors make their voices heard for audiobooks | Ireland | The Sunday Times (archive.md). It's actually in the article's reference section. As for the prior 2017 incident, I categorically deny again and again that Bliss Media has paid me to edit on Wikipedia to promote them. They are not interested in having a presence here. In fact, I haven't touched Bliss Media or the Thomas Price (actor) pages for sooooooooooooooo many days now. When one loses interest on some things, that's what happened. Maybe one day I will stop caring about this Stephen Hogan page too. Truth will come out. Supermann (talk) 03:16, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- With all due respect, User:Supermann, a lot of people don't seem to believe you and there's no way to prove it either way, but maybe they're right; you do have a past, and apparently your involvement is seen by some as annoying filibustering, so you might want to just back off and let other editors have their say. Herostratus (talk) 03:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- As a comment, the Blueprintreview website is not the same as the literary magazine with a Wikipedia article. Also, as brought up at another AfD also commenting that review, it does not meet the threshold of reliability as required of reviews establishing notability at WP:NFSOURCES due to the fact that it is impossible to establish the reliability of their publishing process by the fact that we cannot determine an editorial board or process. Generally, I don't have an opinion on the other sources or whether this article should be kept or deleted, but that specific source is not an adequate review nor is it the same as the literary mag. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 02:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: The closer of the DRV specially mentioned issues with WP:BLUDGEON, and quite frankly Supermann & Herostratus that seems to be about what you are trying to do here. There enough AfD related drama at ANI already recently but I'm on the cusp of bring you people there. |Herostratus, at a rough glance you look like you unintentionly double !voted so I'd suggest changing that to a comment. There's a discussion at at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Supermann if there's a need to discuss issues with concerns of any COI/UPE by Supermann but I'd strongly suggest an AGF of innocent until guilty approach until evidenced there. To state the obvious I am spending time at this to look for a simple clear best WP:THREE argument for a keep. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 03:59, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hey, don't threaten people with ANI. Either open a case or keep quiet. ANI is not for waving around to frighten other editors with empty threats. That's just really insulting and inflammatory. It's not a good way to move discussions like this forward in a calm manner, I don't think.
- I didn't double vote by accident. A pointed out that (in my opinion) the nom is malformed and we need to start over with the "This article was created under corrupt circumstances" front and center as a key point in the nomination. That's not a vote on the disposition of the article. Then, if we don't start over (which, probably not), on the merits of the article alone my vote is to keep it.
- As to the rest, do you have any thoughts on the article itself? That's what we're supposed to be hare about. Herostratus (talk) 06:40, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hut 8.5 took us down a WP:GNG rabbit hole that is so deep that nobody seems to be able to get out of. But I just realized essay WP:GNGACTOR. So hopefully, we are toe to toe with this other essay: WP:THREE. To entertain that request for 3 RS anyways:
- 1) In the 2018 Mad as Hell, directed by Cassie McFarlane, Hogan played the significant role of Peter Finch/Howard Beale at Jermyn Street Theatre.[1] This is listed in the Theatrical filmography section that CiphriusKane liked me to expand on earlier, but now has totally disavowed in his latest argument. The archived URL works. The author wrote, "It's a tall order to play a man as familiar and charismatic as Finch, but Stephen Hogan – the BBC Redwater star – makes a good fist of it. He captures Finch's outrage that people in the Hollywood community, and on the island of Jamaica, felt in a position to pontificate on how he should conduct his private life." The article featured a picture of Hogan. If this is not the treatment of a lead role, I don't know what is. Again, I haven't seen the work, but 95% here don't even bother to watch his movies that are widely available.
- 2) In the Starship Troopers 3: Marauder review, film critic Joe Leydon wrote for Variety, "Omar Anoke, the heroic sky marshal in charge of battling the big bugs, is a charismatic celebrity and chart-topping singer whose onstage movements and militaristic song list suggest Adolf Hitler as an 'American Idol' contestant."[2] Scott Lowe of IGN wrote, "the Sky Marshal's saber rattling pop single...calls to mind Lee Greenwood's "I'm Proud to Be an American.[3]. Please use "marshal" as keyword when you peruse these two sources. I can accept lumping them into just one single RS to demo his significant role as the baddie only second to the big alien bug.
- 3) Finally, his significant role as detective Swain in Sardar Udham per Dublin Live at https://www.dublinlive.ie/whats-on/dublin-actor-stars-fascinating-new-21993385, if we are really talking about true AGF of innocent until proven guilty.
- It's time to not move the goal posts every so often. I am not denying he is not as notable as some other Irish actors out there. But enough is enough with a long list of prolific contributions. WP:NACTOR must be respected. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 06:49, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ Walker, Tim (February 21, 2018). "FINCH'S ANGER MANAGEMENT COURSE; Mad as Hell". The New European. Archived from the original on 2021-07-28.
- ^ Leydon, Joe (August 13, 2008). "Starship Troopers 3 Review". Variety.
- ^ Scott Lowe (12 May 2012). "Starship Troopers 3: Marauder Blu-Ray Review - IGN". IGN.com.
- Comment: Thankyou for suggesting a top three references. As two seem to refer to the same Starship Troopers Marauder 3 role can someone consider replacing one of those with a source to a different role, possibly one for Sardar Udham perhaps? Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 09:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- I'd be tempted to replace the Variety one for the Times article. I genuinely have nae idea why Supermann keeps touting sources that others have questioned the notability-determining of, while ignoring an article about his audiobook narration CiphriusKane (talk) 11:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- If you recall, there are folks who don't like the Times article either. Let's not forget that I didn't come up with the Times article in the history of the page. Another admin did. She encouraged me to push it back to mainspace after having been put back to draft. But she hasn't re-joined any of the conversation, saying it could go either way. I will try to follow up with her and see if she is willing to join now. She is the other editor I mentioned at the top of the DRV. Thanks. Supermann (talk) 16:01, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- I'd be tempted to replace the Variety one for the Times article. I genuinely have nae idea why Supermann keeps touting sources that others have questioned the notability-determining of, while ignoring an article about his audiobook narration CiphriusKane (talk) 11:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Coverage not in-depth. Fails GNG and NACTOR. — Alalch Emis (talk) 10:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Sources already noted above are sufficient to pass WP:GNG. --Jayron32 12:57, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Two sources provided by Herostratus look good enough to count towards GNG. NemesisAT (talk) 13:09, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- I fail to see how any of it could be seen as in depth coverage. Could someone point me in a direction here? How could these sources be used to provide references to meaningful encyclopedic content? Say, if there's a paragraph written, but the only claims we would be verifying with that source are that X played Y role, that is a signal that the coverage is not in depth. — Alalch Emis (talk) 13:27, 17 November 2021 (UTC)