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Malleus Fatuorum (talk | contribs) →Pissing contest: here's what I'm suggesting |
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:::You. --[[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 19:00, 4 November 2009 (UTC) |
:::You. --[[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 19:00, 4 November 2009 (UTC) |
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::::Are you suggesting that now my ''[[agent provocateur]]'' has joined the conversation, I should leave it? -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 19:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC) |
::::Are you suggesting that now my ''[[agent provocateur]]'' has joined the conversation, I should leave it? -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 19:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::I'm suggesting to you that as this is an article created earlier today by your "agent provocateur", some may be inclined to suspect your motoves in arguing so persistently for its deletion. --[[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 19:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete'''. If someone can actually come up with sources to support an article on actual pissing contests, fine, but this is a non-article simply about a phrase that could be adequately and more appropriately covered in Wiktionary.--[[User:Michig|Michig]] ([[User talk:Michig|talk]]) 19:12, 4 November 2009 (UTC) |
*'''Delete'''. If someone can actually come up with sources to support an article on actual pissing contests, fine, but this is a non-article simply about a phrase that could be adequately and more appropriately covered in Wiktionary.--[[User:Michig|Michig]] ([[User talk:Michig|talk]]) 19:12, 4 November 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:17, 4 November 2009
Pissing contest
- Pissing contest (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Wikipedia is not a dictionary or a slang, jargon or usage guide, but that's what the article seems to be about. It's not even a particularly useful dictionary entry, combining a convoluted original research explanation and what looks like a random sampling of Google search results as usage examples. Some content might conceivably be salvaged for wikt:Pissing contest. Sandstein 09:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Comment. To the extent that the nominator's observations are correct, they suggest expansion, not deletion. Many phrases that have definitions in dictionaries are also suited to encyclopedia entries. I am not sure that the information presented in the article is accurate (let alone well-sourced), but the phrase is plausibly one of note and import beyond just its definition. Bongomatic 10:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Keep per the same policy given by the nominator. While the list of examples is not enough, the information on the origin of the term coming from actual pissing contests on walls means that this article "provide[s] other types of information about that topic as well". I would like to see some information on when the term first being used in this manner, however, and possibly info on the original literal pissing contests. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 16:33, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Delete - slang term that isn't particularly world-centric. Article attempts to inflate importance by referring to an entirely different slang term, presumably to pad the list of available references. Concept much better described with article on competition. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Keep. The article could obviously do with some expansion, but it should not have been brought here so precipitously. There is a history behind the term, as Scapler says, both as the original game and in its modern adoption. That the article does not yet develop those themes coherently is an argument for expansion, not deletion. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:13, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, it is just a colloquial term for competition. Many similar colloquial terms for competitions and duels exist that are of this nature. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:30, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Not quite; it's a term used to describe "any contest which is futile or purposeless, esp. one pursued in a conspicuously aggressive manner". That doesn't sound like a definition of "competition" to me. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:33, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- But it is still a colloquial term that is more suited to (and exists within) Wiktionary. The only references likely to be found are of use of the term, rather than its origin. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Colloquial in what regard, its use in news and book writing suggests that it is not "only appropriate for casual casual, ordinary, familiar, or informal conversation" (from Colloquialism). --kelapstick (talk) 17:48, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- I would argue that the opposite was the case. I doubt the term crops up in formal writing very often - rare exceptions, perhaps. My own brief research on this term (before !voting) lead me to believe that the term came into use in the '80s, growing out of the more prominent term "pissing match" from the '70s. Most dictionaries refer to the terms as "slang", which follows on from what the nominator was saying. Either way, this is material for Wiktionary, not Wikipedia. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- It's the origin of the term that make it interesting. The first recorded use of the term occurred in the modern sense was during a 1943 Senate hearing, predating your "pissing match" hypothesis by 30 years. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Please don't refer to my words as a "hypothesis". As I indicated above, my conclusions were based on some limited research, not pure guesswork. I take AfD more seriously than that. That being said, it is still slang, and thus the proper place for this is Wiktionary. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- It's the origin of the term that make it interesting. The first recorded use of the term occurred in the modern sense was during a 1943 Senate hearing, predating your "pissing match" hypothesis by 30 years. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- I would argue that the opposite was the case. I doubt the term crops up in formal writing very often - rare exceptions, perhaps. My own brief research on this term (before !voting) lead me to believe that the term came into use in the '80s, growing out of the more prominent term "pissing match" from the '70s. Most dictionaries refer to the terms as "slang", which follows on from what the nominator was saying. Either way, this is material for Wiktionary, not Wikipedia. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Colloquial in what regard, its use in news and book writing suggests that it is not "only appropriate for casual casual, ordinary, familiar, or informal conversation" (from Colloquialism). --kelapstick (talk) 17:48, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- But it is still a colloquial term that is more suited to (and exists within) Wiktionary. The only references likely to be found are of use of the term, rather than its origin. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Not quite; it's a term used to describe "any contest which is futile or purposeless, esp. one pursued in a conspicuously aggressive manner". That doesn't sound like a definition of "competition" to me. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:33, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, it is just a colloquial term for competition. Many similar colloquial terms for competitions and duels exist that are of this nature. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:30, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- There is however, nothing preventing slang expressions from existing on Wikipedia, I believe that it is best that the two of you agree to disagree on whether or not slang expressions have a place here, lest you begin your own pissing contest (last part added entirely for humourous purposes).--kelapstick (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Keep. This phrase is part of the English vernacular, and may have interesting origins. There were quite a few medieval streets in London called Pissing Alley, and part of me wonders if the two aren't related. I'll try and find more. Parrot of Doom 17:27, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Nah, the various places named "Pissing Alley" were so named because there were certain places that people congregated to piss in the street before the Great Fire of London. A particular favorite of mine (of similar ilk) is Gropecunt Lane. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think I've a vague memory of having seen Gropecunt Lane before ... --Malleus Fatuorum 18:06, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Nah, the various places named "Pissing Alley" were so named because there were certain places that people congregated to piss in the street before the Great Fire of London. A particular favorite of mine (of similar ilk) is Gropecunt Lane. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Comment - WP:NAD is pretty clear on this matter. Wikipedia is for "a person, or a people, a concept, a place, an event, a thing etc. that their title can denote." Wiktionary is "the actual words or idioms in their title and all the things it can denote." This clearly falls under the latter definition. To my mind, this is similar in nature to "pissing in the wind". Neither of these should have Wikipedia articles. "Penis extension" (slang for a man's sports car, fancy yacht, etc.) is another example. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:24, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- And a thing. There are, after all, literal as well as figurative pissing contests. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
←I am not allowed to respond directly to CoM's comment above, since we are both under an editor interaction restriction. As a general remark, however, I would point out that there are literal as well as figurative cases of "pissing in the wind" as well. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- It would probably be advisable then for you to offer no further input at this AfD, lest it may be interpreted by some as personally motivated rather than on the merits of the case. Your deletion vote has been cast. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)