Persecution of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo
- Persecution of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Fundamentally half of the article is a WP:CFORK of the largely unrelated 2004 unrest in Kosovo, 2008 unrest in Kosovo and Organ theft in Kosovo, while the rest is composed of a WP:NOTNEWS list of various dubious incidents which only have in common that Serbs were allegedly involved. In fact, one mentions a conflict between Serb officers and Albanians and another the destruction of Serb tombstones, although the source explicitly says that the police ruled out "ethnic motives". In conclusion, the basic premise of the article is based on the fact that "something" Serbian (ranging from headstones to Serb police officers) was involved in alleged and non-alleged unrelated events with unrelated causes and motives, thus all of them can be grouped under an all-encompassing article about "persecution".
As a sidenote, if you do happen to take even the slightest interest to review this AfD, please do so whether you agree with my assessment or not as many of these AfDs are plagued by organized tag-teaming (often, users that haven't been active for many months or even years are notified via email and turn these discussions into votestacking competitions) — ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:24, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
- Delete - Inevitably a POV exercise. A coatrack, a laundry list... I'm sure there was violence against ethnic Serbs in Kosovo in the aftermath of the
ethnic cleansinggenocide attempted there; this is not the way to address that topic, however. Carrite (talk) 18:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)- That is nonsense. Not to mention your deep POV about this subject, but the fact that you find this violence non important for the encyclopedia. --WhiteWriterspeaks 16:29, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Kosovo-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:13, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 16:13, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Keep Tons of sources about explicit persecution of Serbs in Kosovo. If this is controversial subject, that does not mean it should be deleted, but fixed in line with wiki guidelines. About this tag-teaming comment, i can in advance list traveling circus users that will vote to delete this article, and not per article quality, but per personal national agenda. --WhiteWriterspeaks 16:29, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Keep Relevant issue occurring in modern-day Kosovo. There are numerous sources in Serbian, English and other languages that ascribe to the violence and mistreatment that Serbs and their relics and monuments in Kosovo face today. 23 editor (talk) 19:08, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Quite interesting that you two came to the AfD in such a manner and with such personal attacks against obviously unrelated and impartial editors with no "national" WP:COI. That being said, no irrelevant events that simply include in some cases just the word "Serbian" and aren't linked by the sources can be grouped under the term "persecution".--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Delete - as WP:SYNTH in violation of NPOV. Title with obvious POV issues is backed up by lede that has 2 clearly unreliable sources, 1 source that actually partially contradicts article (indicating that Serbs get preferential treatment over Roma and others then receiving positions meant for minorities), and finally one reliable source that is completely unrelated to the topic of "persecution". Sections from 2010 and onwards are also clear case of WP:NOTNEWS.--Staberinde (talk) 17:39, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Delete; serious NPOV issues, just used as a coatrack. Whitewriter's remarkable "i can in advance list traveling circus users that will vote to delete this article" outburst further underlines the problem of entrenched us-versus-them nationalist mindsets in this area. Part of the problem, not part of the solution. bobrayner (talk) 12:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Indicative of the votestacking mentality of these AfDs is that as soon as someone provides a view about the AfD, !keeps "happen", but after a favorable "numerical status" is established no further !delete comments or even replies are added to the discussion. Of course as soon as that changes again !keep votestacking occurs.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:24, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Keep - Honestly, persecution of Serbs in Kosovo has been a recurring problem for decades now. This article does not accurately reflect that. In fact, the content of the article is problematic and does in fact restate information already found in other articles. If this article were to accurately depict the topic at hand throughout the decades, then I think this article has A LOT of potential. A good starting point is a survey conducted by SANU between 1985-1986 found here that depicts the discrimination faced by Serbs, and Montenegrins alike, in the 1980s pre-Kosovar independence. This survey is used in the Montenegrins of Kosovo article already, however, the article does not use much of the survey's content, if at all barely. On another note, the survey does include pretty useful information. We must also not forget the fact that Albanians, too, were persecuted in Kosovo. Just my two cents worth. --Prevalis (talk) 20:28, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
- Keep. As is this article looks more like a list than an encyclopedic article, however its topic is notable. I think that the right way is to improve this article by adding scholarly view of the history and current situation instead of non-notable news-like content. Deleting the article would not make it easier. Alæxis¿question? 10:28, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- That would be fine in principle; but in practice, attempts to reform the article have been swiftly reverted. As long as an article exists at this title, it's doomed to become a one-sided laundry-list... bobrayner (talk) 11:24, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Article has been waiting for "scholarly view" over 5 years. It can be recreated then that scholarly view finally shows up, if it ever does. There isn't really anything in current content that deserves preservation and isn't already in other wikipedia articles.--Staberinde (talk) 11:36, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, it does. a lot of material are listed only here, and nowhere else in wiki. While some others are only introduction to the main article subjects I have expanded the article a bit more, with rock solid international reliable sources addressing this abuses and attacks toward Serbs. @Bobrayner All neutral reformations will not be reverted. --WhiteWriterspeaks 12:18, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Your expansion of the WP:NOTNEWS list that you have grouped under the term "persecution" is indicative of the non-scholarly content of the article. How can unrelated events, the participants of which are mostly unknown and their motives are also unknown be grouped under such a term?
- Serb officials attacking and getting attacked by Albanian civilians,
- headstones destroyed by people with "no ethnic motives",
- events in which people from many different ethnicities including Albanians died,
- people attacked by unknown assailants with unknown motives
- were all grouped in a WP:NOTNEWS POV hodgepodge with the pompous headline of "Persecution".--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:34, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Please, be serious. If Kosovo police proclaim that attack was not ethnically motivated, that means NOTHING after we all know their role on Kosovo. They are there, watching. This is nothing else then ethnically motivated attack to destroy and persecute everything Serbian on Kosovo. Dont think of us here as an idiots. They attacked that monument only because it was Serbian! --WhiteWriterspeaks 12:38, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
(unindent)Your treatment of the AfD and these topics in general is indicative of the issues that bobrayner mentioned. Personally, I'm interested neither in such debates ("we" vs. "them") nor discussions where sources are ignored with "this is nothing else than" labels and irrational groupings. (Btw the "connection" of the removal of a Yugoslav WWII monument by civilians in retaliation to the removal of the Presheve monument by Serb state structures with "persecution" is lost to me and apparently to the sources since they didn't report any "persecution"). Enough said.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:51, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Sure that it is lost to you, i didnt even expect it to be different. Monument of terrorist organisation in Serbia was moved, while 100 monuments across Kosovo was mischievously and tactically destroyed. In that "retaliation system", in the past almost 15 years, this article state to us that it was always more then retaliation. As it is now. Also, please, stop excluding your self from "we" vs. "them". You may speak about that to someone else, who was not here in the past 8 years of your accounts and editing. --WhiteWriterspeaks 17:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- So I've been around wikipedia since 2005. That is definite "upgrade" given that the last time you accused me of sockpuppetry you only included me as a second possibility below bobrayner[1]. Which 100 monuments were destroyed, by whom, how are they related to each other and who has grouped them under "persecution"?.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 11:11, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Rename to Persecution of Other Races in Kosovo, or something similar to that - this is a controversial subject, yes, but it is a notable one, based on the sources in the article. Lukeno94 (talk) 13:29, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Merge with Serbs of Kosovo. I did a Google search on the phrase "persecution of" across the Wikipedia web domain (Google query link). It would appear that articles about the persecution of some group largely deal with religious persecution; Wikipedia articles about the "persecution of" one ethnic group by another ethnic group or nation seem to be quite rare. As others have pointed out, "persecution" is non-neutral terminology (WP:NPOV), especially when used outside its traditional domain of religious discrimination. Renaming the article would be one solution, but it would appear that substantial overlap already exists between this one and Serbs of Kosovo, so in my opinion, a merge would be a better solution. Moreover, as it stands, the article in question is basically a list of incidents; a merge to Serbs of Kosovo would place these in a broader context for the reader. --Mike Agricola (talk) 18:27, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Merging a laundry list of news incidents elsewhere doesn't make it any more encyclopedic. The section Serbs of Kosovo#Recent attacks on Serbs in Kosovo is just as bad as this article. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Actually much of the content was written and copy/pasted in those two articles by the same user.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Delete. The title is inherently non-neutral, and the content of the article is a list of incidents reported in the news media and synthesised into an article by Wikipedia editors with no independently reliably sourced indication that they are part of a pattern. It would probably be possible to create a neutral article about ethnic conflict in Kosovo, but I don't see anything in this article that would make a good start to such an article. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Keep - It exist a lot of sources (also independent form Serbian sources, a lot of international sources from Germany, USA, England, Italy, Spain, Russia ect. ) about persecution and expulsion of Serbs and other non-Albanians like Gorani people, Romani people, Bosniaks and Montenegrins in Kosovo since decades, also during the WW2 ect. It is part of the history, a very relevant issue occurring in modern-day Kosovo also, and important for an encyclopedia. And why should it be delate? We had some weeks ago the destruction of Serbian graves and burning crosses, and a burned chapel in Kosovo. I can not understand it why should this article be delate and other articles with the same topic and the same weight remained. Honestly, why there is a double standard here? If that sounded what Wikipedia is? Surely not. Is a tracked or distributed Serbian child worth less than an Albanian? or an Albanian as a Serbian? Or an Jewish child less then an Arab child? They are all worth the same. And this issue should be treated as such and not only the Albanian side, also the Gorani, Serbs, Ahskali, Romani, Bosniaks, Montenegrin side ect. was also victims or persecuted since decades. And If this is controversial subject, that does not mean so far that it should be deleted. In addition, the name also should not be changed, because most victims from the non-Albanians was absolute mostly Serbs. Numerous sources exist to this subject, and this will make it possible to write an independent and good articles who will include all wikipedia rules. 100% keep--Nado158 (talk) 22:14, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
- Keep - Content should be reviewed. Sources do mention persecution of Serbs and others in Kosovo.--Zoupan 03:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- Quite interesting that two more Serbian users come together to offer their !keep without of course sources that connect any of the article's content or policies.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:57, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- Ah ok. I respond in your language. Quite interesting that you as Albanian want to delate the article, better to cover these events or to disguise. Try someone of us for example to delete the persecution of the Albanians? No. How do you know if I am Serb? Only when someone is not of the opinion of an Albanian, he is immediately a Serb or what? There is nothing worse to be Serb or Albanian or whatever. For you as Albanian its normal to delete the article abut tracking of non-Albanians in Kosovo, but at the same time for you its "interesting" that non-Albanians, especially Serbs, try to argue against it?Please stop with your double moral. This is not Albanopedia or Serbopedia or Romanopedia ect, its Wikipedia. We have a lot of sources and your argue that the sources connect with policies is weak. After your statement we should the 9.11 attack and their victims, and the background put into question or delate, because there are political backgroud? 100% Surely not. We will work all together to improve the article. For this we need time and not a deletion.--Nado158 (talk) 11:01, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- Delete. Some users above have stated its issues clearly. The article is a FORK and with POV title and falls also within NOTNEWS. Efforts for improving have failed and there is no point on keeping it anymore. I would ask parts to focus on the issues not ethnicity. There are always two sides of the story, that's why we have wiki rules. This article should be deleted accordingly. Aigest (talk) 11:59, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- Delete. These types of pages simply serve to entrench nationalist propaganda and intense POV's. Wikipedia at its best does the opposite. This page is patently non-neutral and simply polarizes ethnic divisions within the region. The fewer of these sorts of pages the better.Epeos (talk) 20:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- Well over half of the sources are international sources. Nationalist propaganda because its handled about prosecution commited by Albanians? Would all this victims be Albanians you would vote as Albanian for the remain of this page right? it this not double moral? Prosecution, ect., of Albanians may exist everywhere but not about non-Albanians? This is neutral?This page is abolut not POV. You should perhaps read again the real meaning of the term POV. All these sources are POV right? But the same sources be used on pro-Albanian side there is suddenly no POV?come on. What polarizes the ethnic divisions within the region is suppression of pages, or the cover-up from pages, which are from the other side of the story, the non-Albanian side. You wrote, the fewer of these sorts of pages is better? And exactly that is absolut not neutral and have a puff of propaganda, and besides this, this is POV. This page is not an invention, also not the events, the background and the murdered people, the prosecution of the non-Albanians ect ect. This is not noot Porpaganda. Propaganda are not things which are based on true events.--Nado158 (talk) 21:23, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- I mean in my humble opinion, these sorts of polarizing editorial pages (e.g. persecution of non-Albanians or "persecution of Albanians") are not particularly useful to wikipedia. But I that is just my own opinion.
- Well over half of the sources are international sources. Nationalist propaganda because its handled about prosecution commited by Albanians? Would all this victims be Albanians you would vote as Albanian for the remain of this page right? it this not double moral? Prosecution, ect., of Albanians may exist everywhere but not about non-Albanians? This is neutral?This page is abolut not POV. You should perhaps read again the real meaning of the term POV. All these sources are POV right? But the same sources be used on pro-Albanian side there is suddenly no POV?come on. What polarizes the ethnic divisions within the region is suppression of pages, or the cover-up from pages, which are from the other side of the story, the non-Albanian side. You wrote, the fewer of these sorts of pages is better? And exactly that is absolut not neutral and have a puff of propaganda, and besides this, this is POV. This page is not an invention, also not the events, the background and the murdered people, the prosecution of the non-Albanians ect ect. This is not noot Porpaganda. Propaganda are not things which are based on true events.--Nado158 (talk) 21:23, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- The problem objectively with the page is that by definition it ONLY talks about persecution of non-Albanians. I'd have the same problem with a page that ONLY talked about the persecution of Albanians. The problem isn't with the source per se (though I haven't read through them all). Source problems could be fixed by the wikipedia community. The problem here is with the way the page is structured. The page is it inherently non-neutral as a stand-alone full fledged page. If this content must be included it should be a section of a page on human rights abuses during the Kosovo war (per Irondome's suggestion) but frankly all of these "lists of persecution" from the Kosovo War appear in so many other articles on wikipedia (see e.g. List of Massacres in Kosovo War, Kosovo War, War Crimes in Kosovo) that repeating the same information here ad nauseam (and in an inherently selective manner) seems redundant, exhausting and serves only to further one interest over another. I'd have the same objections about a page devoted exclusively to Albanian victims of Serbian war crimes. (ps I don't understand what you mean by Albanians may exist everywhere but not non-Albanians. So to the extent I haven't addressed that... sorry.) and thanks. Epeos (talk) 22:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- Yes but that's the point. You can not on one side where it exclusively to the pursuit of blacks going to require, installed persecutions of other peoples like Indians . There are other sites separately for this. This page is about this topic here. Your own mind, I can understand very well, but Wikipedia is a enceclopedyc page. You and I have no influence on world events, and when they arise, they will be reported here, whether it is an earthquake, a war, or sports. I wish we could have no material to write negative or such sad things like this. I wish there were no victims on all sides, no dead Serbs, Albanians, etc., but we can not change, unfortunately. Of course there are some overlaps with the Kosovo war, etc, but most things have happened until after the war. Much is not available in other articles. And much of what still could be added there is also not present. On the contrary, exactly the deletion of this page would serve only to further one interest over another. We have for example pages and articles devoted against Serbian side, where mentioned only one side, the anti-Serbian side, where only mentioned Serbian war crimes, but not the other war crimes against Serbs and other people. We have other examples with other nations too. Against Germans, etc. etc. I support neutral pages, but sometimes the facts are clear and the remove would be not neutral. In any case, in Serbian, Albanian, American etc. You can not make from a perpetrator a victim, and vice versa. Thanks--Nado158 (talk) 11:45, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- But there are SO many pages that say the exact same information. I mean there is already a "persecution of Serbs" page! Can't you stuff all of this information onto that page? There is a "Kosovo War" Page and a "Kosovo" page. where crimes against serbs are voiced. There is a "list of massacres in Kosovo" page. There is a "Kosovo war crimes" page. There is a "Serbs of Kosovo" page. All contain reiterations of the same information. Do we really need yet another one? And one with such a small (and one sided) scope? We don't have a "persecuction of Native Americans in Illinois" page. Instead we have a page about Native Americans which describes their persecution and includes a section about Illinois among other places. So that's the argument for shuffling this "page" into a section on another page.
- Yes but that's the point. You can not on one side where it exclusively to the pursuit of blacks going to require, installed persecutions of other peoples like Indians . There are other sites separately for this. This page is about this topic here. Your own mind, I can understand very well, but Wikipedia is a enceclopedyc page. You and I have no influence on world events, and when they arise, they will be reported here, whether it is an earthquake, a war, or sports. I wish we could have no material to write negative or such sad things like this. I wish there were no victims on all sides, no dead Serbs, Albanians, etc., but we can not change, unfortunately. Of course there are some overlaps with the Kosovo war, etc, but most things have happened until after the war. Much is not available in other articles. And much of what still could be added there is also not present. On the contrary, exactly the deletion of this page would serve only to further one interest over another. We have for example pages and articles devoted against Serbian side, where mentioned only one side, the anti-Serbian side, where only mentioned Serbian war crimes, but not the other war crimes against Serbs and other people. We have other examples with other nations too. Against Germans, etc. etc. I support neutral pages, but sometimes the facts are clear and the remove would be not neutral. In any case, in Serbian, Albanian, American etc. You can not make from a perpetrator a victim, and vice versa. Thanks--Nado158 (talk) 11:45, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- The problem objectively with the page is that by definition it ONLY talks about persecution of non-Albanians. I'd have the same problem with a page that ONLY talked about the persecution of Albanians. The problem isn't with the source per se (though I haven't read through them all). Source problems could be fixed by the wikipedia community. The problem here is with the way the page is structured. The page is it inherently non-neutral as a stand-alone full fledged page. If this content must be included it should be a section of a page on human rights abuses during the Kosovo war (per Irondome's suggestion) but frankly all of these "lists of persecution" from the Kosovo War appear in so many other articles on wikipedia (see e.g. List of Massacres in Kosovo War, Kosovo War, War Crimes in Kosovo) that repeating the same information here ad nauseam (and in an inherently selective manner) seems redundant, exhausting and serves only to further one interest over another. I'd have the same objections about a page devoted exclusively to Albanian victims of Serbian war crimes. (ps I don't understand what you mean by Albanians may exist everywhere but not non-Albanians. So to the extent I haven't addressed that... sorry.) and thanks. Epeos (talk) 22:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- But the second argument I see voiced here is that the page itself is structurally bias. I mean, look at the title of this page! "Persecution of Serbs and non-Albanians in Kosovo???" i.e. persecution of anyone who isn't an Albanian??? There are no pages (that I know of) that read "Persecution of Jews and all non-Germans during WWII" There are no pages that read "Persecution of non-Serbs in Kosovo." or "Buildings that are not neo-classical in Chicago." The title defines the subject negatively (i.e. it defines the absence of a thing rather than defining a thing) In doing so with a race of people it explicitly excludes an ethnicity central to understanding the conflict it describes. In my opinion this "page" should be renamed for what it actually is: "Persecution of Serbs in Kosovo" and it should be include as a section under the Persecution of Serbs page. The attacks on Jews can be added to List of Massacres or Kosovo war crimes pages or one of the other myriad pages that proxy as ethnic scorecards for this conflict. To create yet another page and to premise the reasoning for it upon the fact that "the other side has structurally bias pages" is an argument which fails to hold water.Epeos (talk) 18:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- That's not true that there are so many sites that say exactly the same. On the contrary. Of course, there are other articles about other ethnicities. E.g. the persecution of the Jews. And to this subject, there are many different sides + the main page. How do you see it going. And here is the topic for the persecution of Serbs in Kosovo.--Nado158 (talk) 07:19, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
- But the second argument I see voiced here is that the page itself is structurally bias. I mean, look at the title of this page! "Persecution of Serbs and non-Albanians in Kosovo???" i.e. persecution of anyone who isn't an Albanian??? There are no pages (that I know of) that read "Persecution of Jews and all non-Germans during WWII" There are no pages that read "Persecution of non-Serbs in Kosovo." or "Buildings that are not neo-classical in Chicago." The title defines the subject negatively (i.e. it defines the absence of a thing rather than defining a thing) In doing so with a race of people it explicitly excludes an ethnicity central to understanding the conflict it describes. In my opinion this "page" should be renamed for what it actually is: "Persecution of Serbs in Kosovo" and it should be include as a section under the Persecution of Serbs page. The attacks on Jews can be added to List of Massacres or Kosovo war crimes pages or one of the other myriad pages that proxy as ethnic scorecards for this conflict. To create yet another page and to premise the reasoning for it upon the fact that "the other side has structurally bias pages" is an argument which fails to hold water.Epeos (talk) 18:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I have added attacks on Jews. Source from the Jüdische Zeitung--Nado158 (talk) 18:15, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- Keep - How can an article such as Serbia in the Yugoslav Wars (yes, the title is NPOV but the content is basically a narrative plus a list of exclusivelly Serbian atrocities) exist but can´t this one? FkpCascais (talk) 18:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- Keep. Suggest title "Human rights abuses in Kosovo". Then let the material offered stand or fall with community consensus.Irondome (talk) 18:56, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I have added also informations by a report from Amnesty International--Nado158 (talk) 19:24, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- A new attack was today, two Serbian childrens was injured by a bomb attack on a Serbian house--Nado158 (talk) 21:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- I added in this case sources from the U.S . Salon Media Group--Nado158 (talk) 21:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I added also sources from United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, BBC, and imporved some links.--Nado158 (talk) 00:54, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- Apparently WP:NOTNEWS means nothing for some users here. I support the title Human right abuses in Kosovo proposed by user Irondome. At least, we get rid of POV title and enter more materials on human rights abuses by every side in Kosovo. That seems more NPOV. Aigest (talk) 09:57, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- An article at Human right abuses in Kosovo is certainly viable, although it ought to have very different content, and the journey there (from the current content) is likely to be a bumpy ride with lots of reverts. If people really want a Human right abuses in Kosovo article I would argue that it's better to start one from scratch. But if somebody took away the "delete" option and left us with a choice between status quo and an article at this new title, the new one would obviously be an improvement. bobrayner (talk) 18:53, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- This page handled about the pursuit of non-Albanians in Kosovo, because several ethnicities (Serbs, Roma, Ahskali, Bosniaks, Gorani, Jews, Montenegrins ect) were or are attacked by Albanians, which has increased notably since the disputed independence of Kosovo. The rename of the article in Human right abuses in Kosovo is for these items incorrectly, because this is about no-Albanians, and the new headline of this page would not reflect this. If the name must be changed, which I personally can not understand, because there are also other similar items with such NAME, then (i think) it should be named Persecution of non-Albanians in Kosovo, although its also would not reflect the topic of the page, because 90% of the victims ect are Serbs. Because of this i think the current name of the page is absolut right.--Nado158 (talk) 21:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- An article at Human right abuses in Kosovo is certainly viable, although it ought to have very different content, and the journey there (from the current content) is likely to be a bumpy ride with lots of reverts. If people really want a Human right abuses in Kosovo article I would argue that it's better to start one from scratch. But if somebody took away the "delete" option and left us with a choice between status quo and an article at this new title, the new one would obviously be an improvement. bobrayner (talk) 18:53, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- Apparently WP:NOTNEWS means nothing for some users here. I support the title Human right abuses in Kosovo proposed by user Irondome. At least, we get rid of POV title and enter more materials on human rights abuses by every side in Kosovo. That seems more NPOV. Aigest (talk) 09:57, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- I think the current title is a magnet for all sorts of trouble, edit warring etc, Nado. Human rights abuses in Kosovo I still think is less problematic as a title, and anyway the material and the weight of number of attacks and ethnic breakdown of victims etc could be easily accomodated in the text, providing the evidence meets consesnsus. In that sense the title is irrelevant. Irondome (talk) 00:52, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Keep - Notable subject, good article, well sourced. Foodsupply (talk) 23:10, 5 February 2013 (UTC)— Note to closing admin: Foodsupply was blocked as a sock of Oldhouse2012. bobrayner (talk) 20:46, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hello, Foodsupply. What was your previous account, and is that account currently under a cloud for disruptive editing on topics in the southeast Europe? bobrayner (talk) 23:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hello, Bobrayner. The same holds for Epeos or not? The rules are the same for all "new" users.Thanks--Nado158 (talk) 11:51, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- No, that question is only for editors that he disagrees with. All "my side" SPA accounts should not be disturbed. Quite obvious... :) :) --WhiteWriterspeaks 15:57, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- For the record, I've never had a previous account. I am brand-spanking new to wikipedia and seem to have run naively directly into the buzzsaw of the balkans.Epeos (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- O, please, stop. In your eight edit you cited POV wiki guideline, and in you 15th opened a referenced report on WP:BLP/N. We are not idiots. --WhiteWriterspeaks 18:27, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- This is not the place for your personal agenda, it should be dealt with on other place then this. --WhiteWriterspeaks 18:52, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- You're right. and for what its worth accept my apologies. Still, I'm not a sockpuppet and you shouldn't attack the sincerity of my edits and comments. Foodsupply was in fact blocked becasue he was Oldhouse2012 who was in fact blocked for being disruptive. So bobrayner was exactly right.Epeos (talk) 19:03, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
So you say, Epeos, but I suspect that you are sockpuppet too and only investigation can prove that you are not. Since administrators do not allow me to have account, somebody else can open investigation about Epeos? I suspect that sockmasters are either ZjarriRrethues or Bobrayner.200.192.255.146 (talk) 22:53, 7 February 2013 (UTC)— Note to closing admin: 200.192.255.146 was blocked as an IP proxy of Oldhouse2012. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:23, 12 February 2013 (UTC)- why don't they let you have an account?? Is it because you've abused the system a little bit? what a bummer man. I'm still not a puppet though. I'll open an investigation on myself if that would make you feel better just so people stop using it as an excuse to avoid substantive discussion... (but I don't actually know how to do that yet.)Epeos (talk) 00:11, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
- You're right. and for what its worth accept my apologies. Still, I'm not a sockpuppet and you shouldn't attack the sincerity of my edits and comments. Foodsupply was in fact blocked becasue he was Oldhouse2012 who was in fact blocked for being disruptive. So bobrayner was exactly right.Epeos (talk) 19:03, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- This is not the place for your personal agenda, it should be dealt with on other place then this. --WhiteWriterspeaks 18:52, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- O, please, stop. In your eight edit you cited POV wiki guideline, and in you 15th opened a referenced report on WP:BLP/N. We are not idiots. --WhiteWriterspeaks 18:27, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- For the record, I've never had a previous account. I am brand-spanking new to wikipedia and seem to have run naively directly into the buzzsaw of the balkans.Epeos (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- No, that question is only for editors that he disagrees with. All "my side" SPA accounts should not be disturbed. Quite obvious... :) :) --WhiteWriterspeaks 15:57, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hello, Bobrayner. The same holds for Epeos or not? The rules are the same for all "new" users.Thanks--Nado158 (talk) 11:51, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Keep. Perfectly well sourced, it is absurd to suggest that the incidents are not related to each other or not part of the same campaign, and in response to Carrite's remark on 27 January 2013 - the article is based on atrocities committed after and during the Kosovo war, though in reality acts committed against non-Albanians (not just Serbs) in addition to ethnic Albanians not sympathetic to the independence movement date back far before 1998. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 17:19, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
- Keep. It's well sourced & there is a chronological sequence and consistency among the incidents described. They doesn't seem unrelated to eachother.Alexikoua (talk) 09:19, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LlamaAl (talk) 22:56, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
- Delete. As noted by Irondome and Aigest (as far as I know, two relatively uninvolved users amongst a lot of names I recognise from this corner of WP), this article is currently a bizarre aberration which runs against a shopping list of WP policies, including WP:COATRACK, WP:NPOV, WP:POVFORK, WP:POVTITLE, WP:SYNTH etc etc. Looking at its editing history and comments above, there is also a complete lack of understanding of WP:NOTNEWS by a number of involved editors, and there appears to be no hope of scholarly review to make it compliant with WP policies. It is a fact that different groups have committed human rights abuses in Kosovo against others over centuries. Given this article is relatively stable in its current un-Wiki form, I consider the only practical option is to delete it. I believe there would be merit in a neutrally titled Human rights abuses in Kosovo (19XX–20XX) article, but this article is not a basis on which such a NPOV article could be built. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:07, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Comment. "It is a fact that different groups have committed human rights abuses in Kosovo against others over centuries.", if you know about any of these then you are free to launch a page. If we were dealing with a list of isolated examples where it was simply the case that ethnic Albanians attacked non-Albanian targets then I too would have joined the "delete" campaign. However, persecution of any kind is a notable subject, in this case doubly so as the persecution is systemic: perpetrated by loyalists to one movement against persons deemed unfavourable to the cause. So the "this is nothing new" argument along with its partner "incidents are not related" are baseless. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 03:19, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- How about addressing the commonly-held concerns about lack of compliance with WP policy? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:27, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I've been thinking about them and I do have one or two ideas but I need more time to propose them - sorry this post is void of more information, I've edited a bit too long and it's nearly 4am here in the UK. As soon as I return I will endeavour to explore new avenues taking all arguments into account. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 03:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- In fact, most of these incidents have not been linked to each other, have not been grouped under the term "persecution" or a similar term by the sources and most of them don't even have proven or alleged culprits and motives. Since the AfD, basically every single case that has involved Serbs in Kosovo (even when later the perpetrators were proven to Serbs that had engaged in criminal activities for personal reasons) has been added in this WP:NOTNEWS list including ...graffiti spraying.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
There are 46 sources to support every statement, so the only reason I see for outright deletion is a sorry attempt at denialism by the "Delete" lobby. This article has never sat comfortably with Albanian editors and yet most fail to spot the connection with all these incidents: it is not a charge sheet printed to list every attack on a non-Albanian but an article on a real issue. It earns the status of persecution not because of the behaviour of the perpetrators but because of the lax attitude of their supposed authorities with much of the felony itself having links to the very top. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 21:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- There may be 46 sources that mention incidents but they aren't grouped under persecution or labeled as such by the sources. Of these incidents most have no convictions, no suspects and no attributed motives, thus there's a gross POV and OR when you assume without evidence the basic premise this WP:NOTNEWS list has been built upon i.e. ethnicity-motivated crimes that occur in an organized manner. For example, a story about a Serbian couple that returned in Kosovo in 2004 and was killed in 2012 was added[2]. However, the source explicitly says that the police still have no suspects and nobody has been arrested yet.. Where is the premise that this was a hate crime that belongs to a wider series of events that constitute persecution based on? No suspects, no motives and no arrrests. Essentially, every incident that has occurred in Kosovo and has included Serbs has been interpreted as a hate crime that is part of a wider persecution.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:09, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
- The article is a mere coatrack of unconnected news reports of bad things that have happened to (mainly) Serbs in Kosovo over a long period. Where are the sources that link them together? Where are the sources that say they are part of a wider program of persecution? Listing them in this way, without sources that say they are linked or part of a wider scheme is pure WP:OR/WP:SYNTH. And there is no "delete" lobby. There is a "WP policy-based" lobby and an "ignore WP policy so we can keep our coatrack" lobby. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 04:39, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
- Yes there is a WP policy-based lobby, the other is a pure denialist faction, and these opt to delete the artcle. It's funny how each says "delete" yet nobody proposes how we deal with an article with statements supported by 46 sources. But don't take my word for it, ZjarriRrethues hit the nail on the had with his last post: "no suspects, no motives, no arrests". Who is responsible for investigating and solving crimes? The de facto authority and we all know who this is. Only people with their head in the clouds can believe that life in Kosovo for non-Albanians is marvelous and they have full state protection. The earliest examples on the article pertain to KLA-based activities and still no motives - and some prate that this does not amount to persecution. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 10:31, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
- Despite having no sources you consider this a legitimate article because "only people with their head in the clouds can believe...". That sounds a lot like many WP:TRUTH arguments that are often heard in AfDs. Btw if you removed all similar items[3] from that incoherent news list, you'd be left with a stripped-down WP:CFORK of some articles I mentioned in the original filing of the AfD. For example, a very unfortunate story about two Serb children that were hit by a grenade in northern Mitrovica about two weeks ago has been added. The three sources again mention no suspects and no motives, while it's been made clear that The police spokesman could not say if it the incident was ethnically motivated.. The next day a suspect was detained who in fact was a Serb who was in conflict with the family of the two children. Not only is there no hint of this incident and many others being ethnically-motivated attacks that is also linked to many others and grouped under an organized scheme of persecution but there is also a suspect. Of course, when I removed[4] the incident I was reverted by Nado.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
- Yes there is a WP policy-based lobby, the other is a pure denialist faction, and these opt to delete the artcle. It's funny how each says "delete" yet nobody proposes how we deal with an article with statements supported by 46 sources. But don't take my word for it, ZjarriRrethues hit the nail on the had with his last post: "no suspects, no motives, no arrests". Who is responsible for investigating and solving crimes? The de facto authority and we all know who this is. Only people with their head in the clouds can believe that life in Kosovo for non-Albanians is marvelous and they have full state protection. The earliest examples on the article pertain to KLA-based activities and still no motives - and some prate that this does not amount to persecution. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 10:31, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
- STRONG DELETE. Per WP:CFORK, per WP:NOTNEWS and per WP:NPOV. Never had I read such utter garbage and s total unconnected pile of pathetic Serbian propaganda as this article. All of the examples are speculation, sourced by Serbian media, and most don't even know who the killer/abuser even was. There is no evidence of persecution. The Republic of Kosovo police is multi-ethnic like the Kosovan state. Ethnic Serbs are welcome to join that force and live a normal Kosovan life, they are allowed political representation and they enjoy autonomy in the north. They have the right to vote and to work. They are allowed to travel to Kosovo with Serbian passports, so where on earth is the so-called "prosecution"? I am amazed the article has lasted as long as it had but now it is time to wipe it off once and forever. All of it's editors are well-known Serbian nationalists who push pro-Serb POV all of the time here. Kosovo 2008 Albania 1912 (talk) 13:04, 13 February 2013 (UTC)