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*<small>'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Literature|list of Literature-related deletions]]. </small> <small>-- [[User:Jayvdb|John Vandenberg]] 13:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)</small> |
*<small>'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Literature|list of Literature-related deletions]]. </small> <small>-- [[User:Jayvdb|John Vandenberg]] 13:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Delete''' A minor byproduct of the Velikovsky affair--and excuse for an article listing his supporters yet again. That Sagan used it as a reference is not importance. He used a great many things as references. It was just another in theattempted defenses of Velikovsky that encouraged him to write. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 03:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Delete''' A minor byproduct of the Velikovsky affair--and excuse for an article listing his supporters yet again. That Sagan used it as a reference is not importance. He used a great many things as references. It was just another in theattempted defenses of Velikovsky that encouraged him to write. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 03:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:'''Comment''' Some of the contributors listed in the article were '''anti-'''Velikovsky, hardly the material to include in an article if people wanted to just "promote supporters". And a circulation of about 20,000 is hardly a "minor byproduct", when for example, the membership of the American Astronomical Society is only 6,500,[http://www.aas.org/], and its [[Astronomical Journal]] and [[Astrophysical Journal]] get a mention. [[User:219.99.216.109|219.99.216.109]] 11:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 11:05, 10 September 2007
Pensée (Immanuel Velikovsky Reconsidered)
- Pensée (Immanuel Velikovsky Reconsidered) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
This article is not about a notable encyclopedic subject. In particular, the magazine does not appear to have had any significant coverage and the article cannot be sourced by any reliable sources independent of the subject. Any useful content can be merged into Immanuel Velikovsky. Nondistinguished 16:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment: See the related Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Talbott Nondistinguished 16:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Keep. "Pensee" was a notable publication in the 'velikovsky affair' and the mileu of student activism/radicalism in the 1960s/70s. It provided a focus/catalyst for the velikovskian movement, and the success of its publications & conferences was probably was the single biggest factor in prompting the AAAS to hold its public seminar on the whole affair. A collection of Pensee articles was published by mainstream publisher Doubleday, and the AAAS published a counter-volume with material by Sagan et al. If Carl Sagan & the American Association of the Advancement of Science thought Pensee was sufficiently notable to bother with, I don't think it's inappropriate that wikipedia has a small, neutral, well-referenced and verifiable article on them. The Immanuel Velikovsky article is probably too big already and has a tendency to suffer further bloat abd edit wars, so I don't think it's a good idea to merge this article into it.--feline1 14:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Comment There is no evidence that Pensee in and of itself was the impetus for the Sagan's criticism of Velikovsky or the AAAS seminar. Therefore this claim of notability is not valid. Nondistinguished 20:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Reply. It is a "brave" editor that can claim to know all, and categorically state there is no evidence. This article says AAAS president Walter Orr Roberts wrote to Pensée to suggest a conference. No Pensée, no conference, no Sagan criticism. 89.14.47.52 10:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ditto Reply: Er, Nondistinguished, you are just plain wrong in your assertion there. There AAAS conference, its causes & reprecussions, is pretty well documented by the various 'Velikovsky Affair' commentators; you could easily educate yourself on the facts.--feline1 12:03, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- The anon and feline1 are offering a counterfactual reading of what happened in the so-called "Velikovsky Affair". Ellenberger points out that the offer of a symposium on Velikovsky came due to the consensus of various scientists (namely Roberts, Sagan, Gingerich, Goldsmith and King) who decided that to aid in the public relations between astronomers and the general public, they should organize a debunking conference. Roberts contacted S.L. Talbott because Talbott was the person closest to Velikovsy. It had nothing to do with his self-published magazine Pensee. Indeed there is no evidence to support this attempted claim of notability for the magazine. Nondistinguished 13:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well I don't agree with your interpretation here - perhaps C. Leroy Ellenberger himself will be along later tell us if *he* agrees with your paraphrasing of him :) Anyways, on the other point, that Doubleday published a collection of Pensée articles, and the AAAS took them seriously enough to published a countervolume...? More generally, I think there's little point the two of us arguing back and forth about this - we clearly disagree - I think the article is fine to stay, you think all material on "pseudoscience" should be eradicated from wikipedia. Of course, you realise that that's not line which would go down well with the community, so you're always careful to insist that your criterea is WP:N et al, but your edit history belies the fact that your editorial activities are all focussed on getting rid of 'pseudoscience', rather than pruning wikipedia of fancruft, minutiae, Buffy Episode Guides and the other morass of non-notable material on the servers.--feline1 15:03, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Don't put words into my mouth. I have explained that what I want is to remove items which are not notable from the encyclopedia. The content is irrelevant. Check out some of the other AfDs I have started if you don't believe me. Impugning my character is not a very good practice and you have been blocked in the past for being belligerent. I am going to ask you to stop telling me what I believe and what my activities are "focussed on". Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, feline1. Would you appreciate it if I told you that I believed your agenda was to be an Irish malcontent who didn't do so well in his studies of chemistry at Oxford? No? Then stop telling me what my "agenda" is. Thanks. Nondistinguished 15:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well I wouldn't really mind if you said that, I'd just shrug, tell you I got a 2.1, and some of my research published http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1219790 lol. That aside, if this AfD is to reach any kind of sensible conclusion, I suggest views of some more editors are sought, rather than the two of us simply going "yes it is!" "no it isn't!" at each other. --feline1 15:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Don't put words into my mouth. I have explained that what I want is to remove items which are not notable from the encyclopedia. The content is irrelevant. Check out some of the other AfDs I have started if you don't believe me. Impugning my character is not a very good practice and you have been blocked in the past for being belligerent. I am going to ask you to stop telling me what I believe and what my activities are "focussed on". Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, feline1. Would you appreciate it if I told you that I believed your agenda was to be an Irish malcontent who didn't do so well in his studies of chemistry at Oxford? No? Then stop telling me what my "agenda" is. Thanks. Nondistinguished 15:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well I don't agree with your interpretation here - perhaps C. Leroy Ellenberger himself will be along later tell us if *he* agrees with your paraphrasing of him :) Anyways, on the other point, that Doubleday published a collection of Pensée articles, and the AAAS took them seriously enough to published a countervolume...? More generally, I think there's little point the two of us arguing back and forth about this - we clearly disagree - I think the article is fine to stay, you think all material on "pseudoscience" should be eradicated from wikipedia. Of course, you realise that that's not line which would go down well with the community, so you're always careful to insist that your criterea is WP:N et al, but your edit history belies the fact that your editorial activities are all focussed on getting rid of 'pseudoscience', rather than pruning wikipedia of fancruft, minutiae, Buffy Episode Guides and the other morass of non-notable material on the servers.--feline1 15:03, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- The anon and feline1 are offering a counterfactual reading of what happened in the so-called "Velikovsky Affair". Ellenberger points out that the offer of a symposium on Velikovsky came due to the consensus of various scientists (namely Roberts, Sagan, Gingerich, Goldsmith and King) who decided that to aid in the public relations between astronomers and the general public, they should organize a debunking conference. Roberts contacted S.L. Talbott because Talbott was the person closest to Velikovsy. It had nothing to do with his self-published magazine Pensee. Indeed there is no evidence to support this attempted claim of notability for the magazine. Nondistinguished 13:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Keep Compared to other student newspapers its notability, notoriety and contributors exceeds most. If Pensée goes, then all the other student newspapers must go. 81.31.38.19 18:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Inappropriate use of WP:ALLORNOTHING supposition. Also, the anon provides no supporting evidence for the assertion that this periodical's notability, notoriety and contributors "exceeds most". This is not a proper reason for keeping an article. Nondistinguished 20:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 13:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Delete A minor byproduct of the Velikovsky affair--and excuse for an article listing his supporters yet again. That Sagan used it as a reference is not importance. He used a great many things as references. It was just another in theattempted defenses of Velikovsky that encouraged him to write. DGG (talk) 03:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Some of the contributors listed in the article were anti-Velikovsky, hardly the material to include in an article if people wanted to just "promote supporters". And a circulation of about 20,000 is hardly a "minor byproduct", when for example, the membership of the American Astronomical Society is only 6,500,[1], and its Astronomical Journal and Astrophysical Journal get a mention. 219.99.216.109 11:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)