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'''comment''': In the intifada twice as many Palestinians were killed as Israelis, a good number of them civilians. You are talking about "creating" balance? :-)--[[User:Burgas00|Burgas00]] 21:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC) |
'''comment''': In the intifada twice as many Palestinians were killed as Israelis, a good number of them civilians. You are talking about "creating" balance? :-)--[[User:Burgas00|Burgas00]] 21:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong keep''' Eleland's proposal is rank with POV. The incredibly weak, and arguably malicious, defense that the Israelis murdered were not civilians cannot be reasonably applied to the [[Dolphinarium massacre]] (13 of the 21 victims were not yet 18 years old) nor to the [[Sbarro restaurant massacre]] (7 of the 15 victims weren't yet 18 years old) nor to any of the other ones on this list because they were all attacks in public places (often where children are present) against non-combatants such as pizza restaurants, amusement parks, buses, and a Passover celebration. Those that were contemporarily in the army (or reserves) were probably not even in uniform, and even if they were, they would not be counted as a "military casualty." I doubt that a attack against civilians in a public place in Syria (which has similar universal conscription laws) would get be considered "military targets" as Eleland implies for attacks against Israeli civilians. --[[User:GHcool|GHcool]] 06:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC) |
*'''Strong keep''' Eleland's proposal is rank with POV. The incredibly weak, and arguably malicious, defense that the Israelis murdered were not civilians cannot be reasonably applied to the [[Dolphinarium massacre]] (13 of the 21 victims were not yet 18 years old) nor to the [[Sbarro restaurant massacre]] (7 of the 15 victims weren't yet 18 years old) nor to any of the other ones on this list because they were all attacks in public places (often where children are present) against non-combatants such as pizza restaurants, amusement parks, buses, and a Passover celebration. Those that were contemporarily in the army (or reserves) were probably not even in uniform, and even if they were, they would not be counted as a "military casualty." I doubt that a attack against civilians in a public place in Syria (which has similar universal conscription laws) would get be considered "military targets" as Eleland implies for attacks against Israeli civilians. --[[User:GHcool|GHcool]] 06:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' But with a rewrite to include Israeli terrorist attacks on Arabs (e.g. [[Eden Natan-Zada]]'s [[Eden_Natan-Zada#The_Shfar.27am_attack|Shfaram attack]]) as the article is highly POV in its current form, "only attacks on Israelis by Palestinians will be classed as "Massacres"" being a blatant example. [[User:Number 57|<font color="orange">Number</font>]] [[User talk:Number 57|<font color="green">5</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Number 57|<font color="blue">7</font>]] 08:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 08:09, 31 August 2007
List of attacks committed during the Second Intifada
- List of attacks committed during the Second Intifada (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
"The criteria used for this list: deliberate attacks against civilians in which ten people or more have been killed." These are arbitrary criteria and thus original research; furthermore, the criteria have been carefully designed to apply to only one side of the conflict. I'm sure Palestinians would say that suicide bombings are not "attacks against civilians" because Israel is heavily militarized with universal conscription, but that Israeli operations against them are. Furthermore, the standard is not actually being applied - the real standard is obviously "major attacks against Israelis". As evidence, note that the "Megiddo junction massacre" is listed sourced to an Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs site which explains that most of those killed were soldiers. The article was previously nominated as part of a mass nom along with lists of attacks by specific groups such as Hamas, etc. There's nothing inherently wrong with those articles because they list attacks of a specific group, and are honest about it. This article was recently moved from List of massacres committed during the al-Aqsa Intifada, an even more clearly POV title; now it's just a better disguised POV fork. Eleland 13:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Delete: Firstly, this article is construed so as to exclude deaths of one side of a conflict, by means of its definition of "massacre", which must be "accidental". IDF automatically presents its thousands of Palestinian civilian victims as accidental, and do not conform to this arbitrary definition. An airstrike on populated areas has the necessary element of foresight to constitute intention and murder under most legal systems - it is thus legally equivalent to a suicide bombing. The effect is equivalent to an article called List of Massacres committe by Serbs in the Bosnian war. Secondly, an perhaps more importantly, an article listing Israeli massacres was deleted as POV [[1]], so this one whould be aswell.
--Burgas00 14:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per nom as the criteria are arbitrary. --Agamemnon2 15:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Keep Eleland, saying the criteria for the list are arbitrary isn't a reason for deletion, if the criteria were open I get the impression you'd be saying it should be deleted because it didn't have clear criteria. Of course these suicide attacks against civilians are, well, exactly that. The fact that Hamas et al thinks Israeli women and kids are legitimate targets is because they're terrorists who target civilians. This article isn't original research, all these attacks happened and can be referenced by any number of sources. There are, in short, no good reasons for deletion here. If you want to write another article about Palestinians killed in the conflict, go ahead, but that's got nothing to do with this one. Nick mallory 14:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Delete or Merge back - Listing these events under Second Intifada, is synthesis, unless the synthesis is cited from a reliable source Corpx 15:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Keep There is nothing wrong with this article that editing couldn't fix. Since this is 8-9 kilobytes long, if the "ten or more" criteria for the list were eliminated, the list could easily be lengthened. The list would not be arbitrary because it deals with killings in a specified place and time period. Want coverage of Palestinian deaths? Insert coverage of Palestinian deaths in this article. Nothing says you can't split the list into sections for "Attacks with 10 or more victims" and "Other attacks". You'd probably also want to split the list up into Palestinian victims and Israeli victims. All can be done without deleting. Noroton 22:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Strong Keep per previous discussions (AfD2, AfD1). This was previously at "massacres" instead of "terrorist attacks", neither of which are limited to one side. That is, it isn't Wikipedia's job to enforce a false parity just because no intentional mass-killings of one side have been documented. TewfikTalk 09:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Comment How do you resolve the apparent contradiction with discussions like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of massacres commited by Israeli forces? Eleland 13:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - I'm open to suggestions about the title, but this information clearly belongs in
Wikipedia. I also agree with Tewfik's point that we shouldn't create balance when there is one. --Leifern 13:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC) comment: In the intifada twice as many Palestinians were killed as Israelis, a good number of them civilians. You are talking about "creating" balance? :-)--Burgas00 21:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Strong keep Eleland's proposal is rank with POV. The incredibly weak, and arguably malicious, defense that the Israelis murdered were not civilians cannot be reasonably applied to the Dolphinarium massacre (13 of the 21 victims were not yet 18 years old) nor to the Sbarro restaurant massacre (7 of the 15 victims weren't yet 18 years old) nor to any of the other ones on this list because they were all attacks in public places (often where children are present) against non-combatants such as pizza restaurants, amusement parks, buses, and a Passover celebration. Those that were contemporarily in the army (or reserves) were probably not even in uniform, and even if they were, they would not be counted as a "military casualty." I doubt that a attack against civilians in a public place in Syria (which has similar universal conscription laws) would get be considered "military targets" as Eleland implies for attacks against Israeli civilians. --GHcool 06:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Keep But with a rewrite to include Israeli terrorist attacks on Arabs (e.g. Eden Natan-Zada's Shfaram attack) as the article is highly POV in its current form, "only attacks on Israelis by Palestinians will be classed as "Massacres"" being a blatant example. Number 57 08:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)